Raising Conscious Humans: Raising Children Who Still Tell Us the Hard Things

0:00Rachel Lim: Hi everyone, welcome back to Raising Conscious Humans. If you're joining us for the first time, this is a six-part series with Hwee Keng Maeder, a mother of three whose way of thinking about parenting has really challenged so much of what I had simply taken for granted. In our first two conversations, we talked a lot about raising children who can think for themselves, trust themselves, ask questions, even challenge the adults around them. But there's a tension on the other side of that, because as parents, there are also moments when we have to lead, when we have to say no, we have to make decisions our children may not agree with, and sometimes hold a boundary even when they're angry with us for it.

0:41Rachel Lim: So today, I want to explore what does authority look like without fear? If the goal isn't simply to raise a child who obeys us, what are we actually trying to build instead? Welcome back, Kwee Keng. Thank you, Rachel. I'm so excited to have you back and to continue this conversation. together. So you know the last time and in the last couple of episodes, we also talked about how important it is to get a child's buy-in when we want them to do something rather than imposing it on them just because we think that it's good for them. So what you have also made clear is that when it comes to safety, right, I think that's a non-negotiable, but when it isn't immediately about safety, how do you decide what belongs to the child to choose and what responsibility is ours as parents.

1:27Hwee Keng Maeder: I think we have to say when we do something or not do something with a child, to a child, what are we signaling the child? What are we telling the child? What our values are? When there are certain values we want to come across and make sure that the child gets it, then when the actions touches these boundaries, we have to say, no, it doesn't work like that.

1:51Rachel Lim: Could you tell me, is there a specific example that you can think of?

1:54Hwee Keng Maeder: Very fortunately, I had a very recent example. So my youngest boy, 10, he takes his own MRT to the Wake Park. So he called me from the MRT and said, Mom, that's after hours of being there. He says, Mom, I lost my cart. I can't take the public transport home. Can I grab? I go, that's a fast one.

2:21Rachel Lim: No. I didn't say no exactly. I said, oh, so you lost your card.

2:26Hwee Keng Maeder: So you can't take your MRT. How about finding solutions like, you know, going to strangers, going to the control, ask people if they could give you a card, sell you a card, and I'll pay them via pay now. I said, go, try to find a solution and then come back to me. Waited for 10 minutes. He called back. He says, mom, really, no solution. Trust me. I even spoke to the controller. And he says, you can speak to the controller. And he gave me the phone in the controller. affirmed that, okay, the kiosk, which usually sells those cars, are closed on weekends. So I go, hmm. But I didn't want to cave in.

3:02Hwee Keng Maeder: So I said, okay. But meanwhile, while he was doing his thing, I realized that he must have lost it at the wake park. And then I called the wake park and said, if you'll find it, please call me. And just then, when I was speaking to him, a call came in from the wake park. So I guess the card came in. So I got him to get the card. I said, okay, Jay, good news for you.

3:22Rachel Lim: The card is found and therefore you've got to walk back. It's a 10 minutes walk.

3:26Hwee Keng Maeder: And he was very tired with a friend. And then he said, oh, but mom, can I get it later? I mean, my friend, we need to do something at home. We need to cook at home and he doesn't have much time. I said, well, you lost the card. I didn't lose it. The card is found. You got to go back and get it, right? I think he was not happy. He's like, and then he hung up. So I called him back and said, Jay, you're allowed to be frustrated. I understand the frustration and I understand it's very annoying, but you lost, you did lose the card. I did not lose it. I wasn't responsible for the situation you are in.

4:04Hwee Keng Maeder: So please own up. Please go and get your card and don't hang up the phone on me because that's not acceptable. While I accept your emotions, I don't accept your actions. So I said, okay. Then I said nicely, bye-bye. Okay. have a bye and I hung up. And the next thing he was,

4:21Rachel Lim: oh, safely. But Hiking, what was going through your mind the whole time? Were you not at all tempted to just, okay, you know what? Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Go ahead. You can always go back to the wake part to retrieve it the next time you're there. No. Why? What were you focused on?

4:38Hwee Keng Maeder: I was focusing on that an action has a consequence. And when we do something that has a consequence, we need to absorb the consequence or we need to own the consequence even when we don't like the consequence because

4:52Rachel Lim: it was followed through by an action in this particular instance, carelessness.

4:56Hwee Keng Maeder: So if I tell him, oh, okay, yeah, you know, your friend, you have no time, just get a grab. What I'm telling him is, it's okay, mom is going to bail you out. You don't have consequence. And next time you can try again. And he wouldn't think about, you know, being careful with the card because if something happens, mum is going to rescue me and I'm not rescuing him.

5:16Rachel Lim: When you were just sharing, I was just imagining myself in your shoes and how sometimes we can get so precious about, oh, you must be so tired, especially after hours of wakeboarding and you must be so hungry. And plus you have a friend who's with you. Okay, okay, okay. You know what? Yeah, yeah, just take a grab. Cave in. And like my child's comfort is also important to me. What would your advice be to me or any parents who are listening whenever we face situations where we can just cave in and close one eye?

5:46Hwee Keng Maeder: You have, I think first of all, for me, I always think about what is poor thing? I mean, poor thing is when you don't have food, when you don't get a shelter and you know, there are lots of children walking to school and even the ones who walk to school are privileged because some don't even get to go to school. So I have this always image that I put against my children. And so I think for me, it was not a question. We're having first world problems. And then the most important thing was, what do I really want to get across to the child? What am I teaching him? What am I telling him? I don't want to be fears because then it's about fear.

6:31Hwee Keng Maeder: Then he is afraid of me. Authority has two parts, right? You talk about authority. There is natural authority and comfort authority. So in the case of government, you give them the authority because you voted for them. But in case of parents, you get the natural authority because you are born. But natural authority at some point needs to earn respect because if the child doesn't respect you, then it just becomes fear.

6:59Rachel Lim: And I want to double down on that because respect versus being liked by our child or having our child be happy with us is very different. And sometimes we can confuse the two because sometimes we want our child to still, like, you know, in your case, Vijay was clearly unhappy that he had to go all the way back and that's why he was like, and then he just hung up. But you could sit with that discomfort. Was there any point in this incident at all

7:24Hwee Keng Maeder: where you were contemplating, should you give in? No, not at all. Wow, no. Because I think the differentiation is we all want to soothe our child. It's a very motherly human instinct that when the child gets into distress, you want to soothe the child. But as much as we have to sit with the discomfort, we have to also allow the child to sit with discomfort because that's what he's going to face a lot in life. He's got to sit with his feelings And still get ahead And do what he needs to do So I think I try to imagine That I'm teaching him How to compartmentalize Feelings with actions Got it And he has the right to those feelings Yes I acknowledge those feelings I said yes I acknowledge those feelings But these feelings didn't come from me And it's not a cause of my actions It's a cause of yours And you have good right To be upset with yourself but it should not be acted out on me because I have no part to play in this.

8:27Hwee Keng Maeder: Wow.

8:27Rachel Lim: In fact, I'm helping you to find a solution, right? But you know, in the previous episodes, we also gave one really good example about Carl and how, you know, when he was spending time overseas training as well and he got into friendship with a group of friends, peers, who, in your opinion, you didn't really feel are good company for him. However, you gave him that choice and you leaned in into your curiosity to ask, you know, Oh, what do you like about hanging out with them? And find out from his point of view. And luckily, I mean, fortunately, you know, for you, he also felt that, oh, you know, mom, yeah, I don't really agree with some of the things they do, but we still hang out together.

9:08Rachel Lim: And you were relieved in a sense because he had discernment and he had those values. But I wanted to also ask, and I found myself wondering, what if he didn't? Or what if he felt like, oh, actually, mom, they're fine. I love hanging out with them. They love to try new things. Yeah, what if his response was something different from what you had hoped for?

9:28Hwee Keng Maeder: Yeah. So I tend to ask questions and I tend to find out about the situations before I can decide for me what I want to do with my child. And I guess because Carl is older, he's, you know, at 15. Yeah, 15 or 16. You know, in their teenage years, you don't want to judge them. You don't want to say no, because that's the sure way that they will turn their back and never tell you another thing again. So I approach it with curiosity, with interest, with genuine interest, because the interest I have may be different from his, but it's still interest. So I say, why do you like this guy? Oh, he's so funny.

10:05Hwee Keng Maeder: Oh, he's funny. And it's just like, what does he do? What does he do that's funny? And then he says, oh, you know, he pokes people and he makes fun of people. And, you know, I said, wow, that's, you know, I said, wow, that's of course really funny. But, you know, I feel like it is at the expense of somebody else, you see. And you have to have some confidence that by the time they're 15 or 16, you have inculcated some values that they can then refer back on their own and do their own reflection. all you need to do is remind them what the actions mean for the surrounding and the community and themselves.

10:45Hwee Keng Maeder: What does it show about them?

10:48Rachel Lim: And so let's say, okay, in the event that he still believes that, oh, I still want to hang out with them. You would just share this point of view and leave it at that for a while and see where it brings him to.

11:00Hwee Keng Maeder: Okay. And then I'll find other ways, you know, you can like remove him from those like physically, like, you know, like creating situations that they don't have to be together.

11:10Rachel Lim: To minimize the interactions.

11:12Hwee Keng Maeder: Yes, exactly. Okay.

11:13Rachel Lim: So that's also where you as the authority will also step in to draw some boundaries for them.

11:20Hwee Keng Maeder: Yes, yes.

11:20Rachel Lim: While making them feel that actually they have the ownership to make their own decisions and choices. Yes.

11:27Hwee Keng Maeder: It's just a bit of like a nudging. And I think there's no dramatic moments. But I think that's the difference between fear and authority. When you have real authority, you don't have these dramatic moments and you don't have to use sentences like, you just do it. I'm your parent. If you have to choose a sentence like this, obviously you don't have authority over the matter. You induce fear and you subject them to absolute authority because of the position that you're in. Not out of respect.

11:59Rachel Lim: Not out of respect and not out of like genuine belief that it is the right thing to do. And I want to touch on that later. But, you know, going back to what you shared, I think a lot of times the examples you share with your kids involve a lot of conversation, reasoning and helping them think through something on their own. What happens when your child understands your reasoning perfectly, but still chooses to say like, you know, I don't agree with it and I'm doing it anyways? How would you respond to that?

12:27Hwee Keng Maeder: Well, like I said, if it's not safety issues, then I let go. If it's not values issues, then I'll also let go. But if it touches the core beliefs of the family or the philosophy or what we're trying to bring up as human beings, we would sit down with many sessions and we would tell them why we think it's not a good idea. But it's always some actions that are inconsequential that they want, that we let go.

12:55Rachel Lim: Yeah. And, you know, throughout, you know, having like different conversations with your kids, has there ever been a moment where you felt like there is a fine line between disrespect and disagreement?

13:07Hwee Keng Maeder: I'm not proud to talk about this, but I have a moment where I physically just thought that this, I don't accept anymore. So there was once, I think, I don't really remember what happened, but Carl lied to me. And it was a lie that, it's not a white lie, but I remember me being so upset, I really slapped his face. And I said, how old was he? He was maybe 10, 11. When I said to him, it hurts me as much to slap you as it hurts probably you. Or maybe it hurts less for you. But I want you to remember forever what it means to get the slap from me. And how much it takes for me to do this to you. And I was crying as I did it.

14:00Hwee Keng Maeder: So he knew that I didn't want to do it because I was angry or anything. But I was just so disappointed that he could lie like this to me after all that we have said. And then all, you know, it's like a moment of my own disappointment acted out on him. And of course, I apologized afterwards. I said, of course, there's a better way to deal with it. But I couldn't deal with myself, clearly. That's why it didn't come across well. But I think he accepted it and he apologized. And he did. And he got the message. Yeah, but I think that was the only one time. I mean, I would have dealt with it differently today.

14:36Hwee Keng Maeder: How do you think you would have dealt with it differently today? So I would signal that I know about the lie because you can, and they know that you know.

14:45Rachel Lim: Yeah. Yeah.

14:46Hwee Keng Maeder: When they know that you know, I would like to see his reaction. Yes. How he, you know, retracts or he tries to cover his tracks or whatever the reasons he gives. and I think I'll take it from there to give him a very strong message about why we don't lie this way. And what's the strong message like? The strong message would be like, you know, the consequences may not have played out the same as it did, which was harmless. It can be played out very differently. And do think about how others feel and do think about yourself. Put yourself in the position that you're being lied to. Not about this thing, but about something you value.

15:24Hwee Keng Maeder: because what I value and you value are different. I can't say how would you feel if this happened to you because then there is no comparison, right? Maybe he doesn't value what I value, right? I said, you have to understand what people value and if you don't know, then you don't do it because you don't know how much they value compared to what you value. Maybe for you it's nothing, but for them it's a lot. So you don't do it because you don't know. And if you know, you shouldn't do it either, right? So I think that would be the message are really about like consideration for the other people and the consequences that's attached to the lie.

15:59Rachel Lim: And you know, Vicky, firstly, thank you so much for sharing that story with us. And I think I also really want to touch on something which we spoke about, which is apology after that and repair. In this particular situation with Carl, after that heated, you know, exchange happened, what was it like? What was going through your mind? How do you calm yourself down? And when do you decide that, you know what, I'm going to have to apologize to him?

16:27Hwee Keng Maeder: I think it's very quick, you know. As a parent, I mean, the way I do things, I know myself that it was a moment that I acted out of impulse, of reflex. And I, well, the fact that I tear, I knew it and he knows it too. So I was very, I quickly, you know, it's shocked for him that mom has been like, it's like that. And I just said, I'm sorry. And I hugged him. And because we, you know, I think this comes back to the beginning. Like how, what kind of relationship you have built with your child in the first six years. And then the bond and connection. And how they can understand that you're not judging them or anything.

17:08Hwee Keng Maeder: That everything you do, they may not understand, but they see that your well-being in it.

17:14Rachel Lim: But why is it so important for us as parents to also apologize to our kids when we have done something we are not proud of? Because it's wrong.

17:22Hwee Keng Maeder: And you have to, if you have the capacity as an adult or as a parent to show your child that you concede when you're wrong, they are more likely to concede when they are wrong because that's the example you give them. And it is wrong. It is wrong to slap or to physically hurt anyone under no circumstances should you really do that. And by apologizing, I'm not apologizing for my values, but I'm apologizing for my actions. So what I'm acknowledging really is I let my emotions take over and do something to you that shouldn't have been done because I couldn't control my emotions. So that's what I'm acknowledging too and what I'm apologizing for.

18:06Hwee Keng Maeder: And so therefore, I'm also telling them, please do not let your emotions overrun and then take undesired actions. No matter whether you're right or not. No matter. No matter. Just not acceptable. Like any physical action, violence, not acceptable.

18:28Rachel Lim: Because we will be modelling to them that this is how we would deal with our own emotions and anger. Exactly. You know, Huygen, what I love most about you is also that you have always, even in our private conversations, shared so honesty that, you know, as a parent, you have grown and evolved so much through the years. And, you know, the last time when we spoke, I was telling you, wow, this must have taken so much self-control. And you always tell me that I didn't always start out like this. When I hear that, you know, hear you saying that I didn't always start out like this, it brings me so much comfort because then there is hope and room for all of us to grow and evolve intentionally to become better parents for our children.

19:10Rachel Lim: Who were you as a mother before you learned some of what you know now? I think I didn't grow up and also maybe my personality is not really, really patient.

19:22Hwee Keng Maeder: So when I had children, it's, and I, you know, I don't really tolerate a lot of low threshold for mass like a lot of people are. And, you know, hygiene and all that kind of things. But I guess the most important thing in the evolution or what we can take really away from this is to reframe. When you reframe something, you are not tolerating anymore. You are in a state where you cannot be angry because you have changed your perspective.

20:01Rachel Lim: Give me an example. So if I say, I can't say I want to be patient and I learn to be patient,

20:09Hwee Keng Maeder: then, you know, I'm sitting there waiting for them to collect their toys and they're not doing it. But I've got something going on and I'm really impatient and I'm just waiting and waiting. And tolerance always has a limit. But changing your perspectives don't. So I said to myself, what is this patient? What is this impatient for? First, how I am now, right? why am I impatient? Is it my nature? And what do I want the patience for? Because I am very centered about how I would like my child to grow up. I need to be an example. So it helps me to reframe. I say, okay, you know, let's try something else.

20:50Hwee Keng Maeder: Okay. And in my experimental moments, I changed the way I look at patience and impatience and what they are doing and what they're not doing. Yes. So that this topic doesn't come up. So when I have reframed it, it's not about being patient or not. I'm just taking the situation as it is and it will not get me. It will never get me. Because when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change. I think it's very, you know, it's a work in progress like all of us. That's why I want to give you hope and everyone hope that, you know, as human beings, we work actually we're working on ourselves, you know, and what we work on ourselves benefits the children in invisible ways.

21:39Rachel Lim: You know, I really want to ask you in that specific moments where you are really, your patience is tested and you're just standing there and I can imagine where the smoke is really coming out of your ears. What are you telling yourself? Like, can you give us practical steps? Like, do I start breathing? Yes. By thinking, okay, can you walk us through? If I come to a level where I know if I engage, I'm just going to get into like, you feel that you're going to explode.

22:08Hwee Keng Maeder: And you know your tolerance level or you should. If you don't, you better discover it. And then you know that before you reach that point, you need a way out. Even if it's physically saying, I can't do this anymore. Sometimes I said this to Carl especially. So I said to Carl before, we are going to close this. We keep this in mind, but we are going to continue because I don't feel myself going to be more reasonable anymore. Yeah, it's not going to be productive. It's just going to end up with a lot of unpleasantries. So before it gets there, let's close it.

22:44Rachel Lim: And we pick it up again when, you know. Well, that's such good modelling of how to navigate.

22:51Hwee Keng Maeder: We all know that sometimes we can get out of hand. So I don't want to get out of hand. And so now I physically remove myself from the situation. And press the pause button. Yes. It's also for me because I know that I'm not going to make it. I actually tell my children, if I do something that you feel that is not digestible, you tell me to. You get to tell me to, you know. And has that ever happened? Yes. Sometimes, you know, there's once I got impatient with Max. And he just looked at me and says, Mom, what's all this about? Wow, wait, how old was he? Quite young. Yeah, like 14 or something. And it's like, Mom, what's this about?

23:33Hwee Keng Maeder: You know, like he doesn't get angry. He just says like, and then I have to quickly jump back and say, oh yes. Like why? Snap back into you. Because it was a genuine curiosity of like what's causing all this. Yes, I think it is really about the relationship that you cultivate with your children and how much trust you have in each other and how much they understand that you mean well.

23:53Rachel Lim: And also our response when they call us out. Yes. Right? I mean, I can't imagine if you just scolded Max and then he would never feel safe perhaps to ever do that again.

24:05Hwee Keng Maeder: But he probably knows that it's okay. That's why he did it. And I think we really, as parents, have to be good examples that we are also humans. We are also imperfect. We carry with us our own luggages. You know, we carry with us with our own traumas. We need, I mean, they can't understand when they are young. But as they get older, we have to try to convey to them that this is what humans are made of. And embrace everyone for their beauty and their flaws. Because they come in a package and they are never perfect.

24:42Rachel Lim: I really love it because I think part of evolving as parents is also confronting how we were brought up. The trauma sometimes of how we were brought up. And I remember you sharing also very candidly about how difficult compliance was for you growing up and how that also made you sometimes an angry person while you were growing up. And then you became a mother yourself and suddenly you were the person with authority. What did that bring out in you?

25:11Hwee Keng Maeder: Oh, I was just very sure I was not going to do the same as I felt because I didn't feel good. And I thought that I would not want my children to feel like that, first of all. And if they had our blood and both me and my husband are non-compliant people, we should know how the outcome would look like if we tried to force compliance upon them.

25:33Rachel Lim: Yeah. Did you ever also feel like perhaps you want to take it to the other extreme where you would overdo it and then, you know, make them extremely non-compliant?

25:47Hwee Keng Maeder: I think children comes with a pre-setting. You will find that some, like even in my little sample size. Of three, yeah. Yeah, there is one that is, I won't say compliant, but he's more agreeable to things. And there's one who always challenges you. So we have to turn the energy into productivity, right? We say, okay, what is a reasonable challenge? You don't challenge for the sake of challenging. If we want to challenge, you challenge us reasonably. and what is considered a challenge, what is then considered disrespectful, right? Because sometimes the challenge is disrespectful, right? If it's done in a certain way or with certain topics.

26:27Rachel Lim: Yes. So how do you draw the line for them? For example, raising the voice or where do you draw the line for them?

26:34Hwee Keng Maeder: Okay, no personal attacks in a challenge. No personal attacks, okay. Okay. We stick to the subject. Yes. Okay, we stick with the facts and then we can agree to disagree.

26:46Rachel Lim: Is that an example where you can share with us where it was a good case study for them to learn how to disagree respectfully? Okay.

26:57Hwee Keng Maeder: So, I have a difficult relationship with a member of a family, okay? So, of course, I tend to convey this in my interactions with my children and they call me out, okay? So they said, mom, actually this person is not like what you say. I don't agree with you. I don't agree with you. They challenged me. And then I get emotional because I said, no, I believe the person is like that because of this, this, this. And then they challenged me. They said, no, because we experienced it like that and like that. So it also forced me to go back and say, yes, everybody looks at things through their own lens.

27:38Hwee Keng Maeder: So it's not a right or wrong. And I think it was good for them to say to me that so that I realized that my own prejudice should be put aside and I should encourage them to have a good relationship with the member of the family whom I don't really agree with. It's just my personal experience.

27:58Rachel Lim: And it also should over time be re-examined. You know, Huy King, just now you also talked about how it's so important to not just jump in to tell our kids, no, you can't do this. Or, you know, punish them whenever they try and tell and open up to us about something. Because we may just close the door on them and they may never tell us anything ever again. And just now you also brought up, you know, in Carl's example of how you were also mindful of the friends that he was hanging out with. but yet you also wanted to ensure that you don't come across like you immediately disagreed. So I want to talk about that and about how fear of disappointing us, how the kids' fear of disappointing us can eventually affect what they feel safe telling us.

28:45Rachel Lim: And, you know, I think for us, especially growing up in Asian households, fear can be very, very productive and effective in producing compliance and getting us to just, okay, do what our parents want us to do. What is the long-term cost you think of using fear as authority and why is it something that you are so against?

29:06Hwee Keng Maeder: Well, fear is never a factor in driving progress, right? I want to tell you something that I feel is very important about fear. Sometimes fear is not even derived from outright instructions or disagreement. Sometimes there is a very elusive fear that's hanging around the atmosphere. What if the child has a trait that is in the list of you definitely cannot accept? And the child keeps hearing this. He's afraid to tell you. But I would encourage that even if you're not really open, try not to put out very strong opinion about certain things before you understand your child fully. Because that will determine whether your child will come forward to you or not.

30:05Hwee Keng Maeder: So I would encourage that we know what we believe. we have even with a strong opinion we can first keep it the way we express it can be lighter so that we encourage it and something that we have to deal with ourselves we have to deal with ourselves we do not pass it on it's the same for trust right it's the same like oh you know if you're afraid that your child is going out in the world and uh and and having uh meeting bad people you is, oh, you know, you have to be careful. You already send the child out with fear, right? And if the child comes back and tells you, oh, today I spoke to this person on the road and don't speak to strangers, you know, then the child will not tell you the next time they speak to some person, some other people, right?

30:54Hwee Keng Maeder: Instead, you should tell them, oh, how is this person? You know, and then you tell them how kind of trust should sound like, how you can trust a person, what kind of skills can I equip you to make that judgment. But the judgment call has got to be the child. It doesn't mean that if you stop telling the child not to talk to strangers, they won't talk to strangers, right? They just don't tell you that they talk to strangers because they understand that you don't like it. So sometimes in this unconscious sending out these messages, we already determine the kind of relationship we're going to have with the child.

31:25Rachel Lim: Because at the end of the day, the connection with the child is most important and we will always want to keep that open for them

31:31Hwee Keng Maeder: to tell us anything. Exactly, because in case they have anything, they can always refer back to you. You are the safe space.

31:37Rachel Lim: So what you're trying to say is for parents to not impose our fears,

31:43Hwee Keng Maeder: our judgment, our judgment on our kids. Yes. I think kids who get judged very often, they live in constant dissatisfaction with themselves, you know, if they're judged negatively. I mean, most times, most of the times it's judged negatively, right? Because they also yearn for the parents' approval. Acknowledgement, right?

32:06Rachel Lim: Acknowledgement. Exactly. And this becomes like a lifelong baggage that they carry which manifests in so many different unhealthy ways.

32:13Hwee Keng Maeder: Right. And we also see people who are above 60 and all still wanting acknowledgement from their parents because they have never gotten it. They get judged, they get judged, they get judged all the time. And that's very unproductive and not helpful for their personal growth as long as they don't understand that they can, you know, that the judgment is independent of really who they are.

32:36Rachel Lim: Yeah. And so much of raising kids and raising conscious children is also eventually hoping that they build up their own moral compass, internal moral compass, such that when we are not there in their lives, in their everyday lives, they also know that, okay, I won't do this because mum would be angry with me versus choosing not to do this because this is not who I want to become. What is the difference between that and how do we get from relying on mom or parents as their moral compass to getting them to have their own independent moral compass?

33:10Hwee Keng Maeder: Well, if you make judgments of them, if you tell them what to do, if you manage for them everything, you don't give them opportunity to learn how to make their own judgments. But if you, in the course of bringing them up, you say, okay, you have done this. Let's look at what you have done. and then you take that apart and then you bring what it means, the values, what the implications, the consequences, then I think you are trying to, you are essentially building this internal moral compass because these are what you have told them from young and from different situations, the way you take it apart, the same values you stress.

33:48Hwee Keng Maeder: They know, they know. We all have an internal compass that needs maybe strengthening, reminding. but once you start to judge it, they start to lose confidence in their own moral compass. Yeah. And sometimes it gets corrupted by surrounding or whatever, depending on their age. That's why I believe that before six, all the fundamentals should be already laid. I really believe that if you want to start, you have to start with your mindset. Yeah. Your mindset is the most important thing that will guide your behavior and that the children can see through whether it's authentic or not. If you're just doing it for a goal and that goal cannot integrate with the rest of the part of your lives, it's not going to play out.

34:36Hwee Keng Maeder: In order for it to be authentic, it has to come from here. It has to come from your mindset. Your perspective, what you believe and how you believe it will automatically settle out in certain actions that has an impact and an implication of the child. So if someone asks you, Huyken, what is the mindset that I should have to raise healthy, conscious children? You know, first, like we always come back to the base, right? Give the child a safe space. And then it's all these things that we discuss. How to create this safe space? How to be a harbour? How to be a safe harbour that every time your child has something, they will come to you.

35:15Hwee Keng Maeder: And they have the confidence and the courage to come to you because they know you don't judge them. You don't, you know, all the things that we talked about so far, right? It's a component of what you want to become for your children. And that's the starting point. And that's the perspective.

35:35Rachel Lim: And you know, one of the things that you also said, shared in the last episode is, and very candidly, we should also share that sometimes the kids have also said very hurtful things to you.

35:45Hwee Keng Maeder: Oh yeah.

35:45Rachel Lim: And also through that, you do ask yourself and reflect, you know, where did that come from? How did it arrive? What is the hardest thing one of your sons has perhaps said to you about your parenting or about you?

35:57Hwee Keng Maeder: I think that it was like, you know, mom, I'm just never good enough for you. And one thing that he said was not very hurtful, but, you know, I didn't take it so well was, mom, I'm not your friend. I'm your son. You know, usually the parents say that to the children.

36:17Rachel Lim: How old was he when he said that?

36:21Hwee Keng Maeder: 16, I said, oh, share with me something. He says, mom, I'm not your friend. I'm your son. And it hurts, but I think it's true too, because we would always have a different interest and a different way to approach the matter that they want to tell us than their friends. So in a way, yes, I'm not your friend,

36:46Rachel Lim: but you still can share with me. how do you respond then and then because I can imagine yeah I said no

36:53Hwee Keng Maeder: I'm not your friend but you can still share with me I'm not your enemy so you definitely can share with me I'm just an interested party in your life you know

37:03Rachel Lim: yeah

37:03Hwee Keng Maeder: I want to participate and how did he take it um okay so actually what I also said to him which I think made him share with me was like I said to him you know if you don't share with me I don't understand the perspectives you're coming from. So when I don't understand where you're coming from, I have to make assumptions. And sometimes my assumptions are so wrong, you get mad with me. Like you said, mom, you think I'm that bad? No, I don't think you're that bad. In fact, I don't think at all because you don't give me any material to think about or think with. So I don't think I just blurt out whatever, you know, and he goes like, oh, you've got a point, you know, like, if you don't let me know who you are, I can't know who you are.

37:42Hwee Keng Maeder: If you I don't know who you are, I can just guess.

37:45Rachel Lim: I can just make wild guesses. And some are more wild than the others. That's all. That's all it means.

37:50Hwee Keng Maeder: So I encourage you to share with me so that I get to know who you are so that we don't have this contention.

37:56Rachel Lim: Yeah. At 16, when your son said that, how did it make you reflect on, you know, perhaps as parents, do our role evolve and change at different stages of their lives? Because I do hear of a lot of comments and feedback and even sadness from friends who have teenage kids, that they're losing connection they once had with their kids. And now at teenage years, they're struggling to keep connection with their kids. What would your advice be? Well, I don't...

38:24Hwee Keng Maeder: Advice is really a big word, but I would say start examining why you lose this connection. Do you... You know, a very good Chinese psychologist say, when you have a teenage child, You have less mouth and more ears. What does it mean? You talk less and you listen. So even you're very tempted to tell the child, oh my God, even you cringe at what they say, don't say it out loud. You know, just don't make judgments. Like I said, I think all these things like, you know, subtle, the way we express opinions of certain people, certain things, will eventually, they are old enough to think, oh, you know, if I tell you, you probably don't approve this.

39:13Hwee Keng Maeder: They think a lot about your approval because they're halfway between detaching you as a point of reference and still wanting that acknowledgement. So there's a lot of conflicts also going in them, you know. So you have to understand that when they don't share, it's probably because they think that you don't approve or you're going to judge them or you're going to. And that's why I encourage an open attitude towards things so that you can catch more areas. If you're more fixated about a certain area, then if it's met by the child, the child will not come to you because they already know what you're going to say.

39:50Hwee Keng Maeder: And if you tell a child, like during the teenage years, I don't say something twice because sometimes even before you can say something, they already say, don't tell me. I know what you're going to say. Or please don't nag. You hear this word nag a lot, but it could only be a second time you're telling. or, you know. So I think that they are very sensitive. They are also themselves undergoing a lot of changes. So you are undergoing change as a parent because you have to parent differently or you have to, your platform of accessibility has to modify. And then the child is also changing. So you have two changing components.

40:25Hwee Keng Maeder: Yeah. Simultaneously. Yeah. Working with each other or at each other or against each other. It's a lot to take, you know. So I think we have to be clear about what we want to achieve at the end, the connection or the authority or the absolute authority over the child.

40:43Rachel Lim: So when Paro said that to you, that, you know, mom, you're not my friend, what did it make you reflect on how you would want to be different to him or your boys at that stage?

40:53Hwee Keng Maeder: During their teenage years, it's very important how you react. If you react positively or you say, oh, wow, that's interesting. or you sort of add into the conversation, then they are more likely, they are encouraged, you see, because they will try. And then once they're testing over the waters, they're testing the grounds. And if they would then start to decide slowly what to share with you, what not to share with you. And if you want real openness, if you're happy with like, I'm not saying that you should, everybody should be open. If you are happy with what you want and you get it, then it's fine.

41:30Hwee Keng Maeder: but if you want to encourage real openness and interaction then you've got to set it out to be like that you know if you start giving very one-track opinions about everything then the child is going to say okay this one I'm not going to say this one I'm going to say you know and they feel like even with openness you are not going to get the child to say everything to you and that's by the nature of the fact that they are teenagers right I mean we are very very open but you know they would still select so imagine if you're not open they're just going to share a very thin slice of whatever you see.

42:02Hwee Keng Maeder: What's happening in my life. Yeah. You don't understand their inner thoughts. You don't have anything to hold on to, you know. So I prefer to work with that.

42:11Rachel Lim: I think like why it played out so well when Carl said that to you was also your response, right? A lot of times, parents, we can sometimes like, okay, be hurt by it and take a drag back or be angry or defensive. And, you know, that makes them even clamp up even more or prove their point, right? Yeah. So I think the way you handled it was also something that we can learn from. Where it's not just like, you know, as a parent, if I can tell the parents one thing is,

42:39Hwee Keng Maeder: you need to learn how to be humble. Humility is going to get you a lot further than you would with your child without it. You got to eat the humble pie a lot of times. Be big on humility.

42:55Rachel Lim: And humility in this case is even when, you know, it doesn't make sense or, yeah, it's not about being right.

43:02Hwee Keng Maeder: Yes. You want to be right or you want to be close. It's your choice. So good.

43:08Rachel Lim: You know, and in closing also, I want to ask you, you know, eventually when we're not in the room anymore, they grow up, we're no longer there to tell them all the rules again. Was there a moment when one of your sons made a choice and you were not there with them? and something about that choice made you think that, wow, he's grown. Maybe this part is part of the parenting that got through. This is perhaps what I got right.

43:35Hwee Keng Maeder: Yes, there is a moment. In fact, it's a public moment. So Max was in the 2024. He won every competition and he was hyped to win the gold and everybody was hoping for the gold from him. And Olympics, yes, during Olympics. And then he got a bronze. He got third. He was super upset with himself. He was disappointed. He hung out underwater. And I knew that was my moment. And when we hugged, I said to him, you do not have to face the public as long as you don't feel good enough. So you just hug me for as long as you need to gather yourself. And when he came, I think there was CNA or something like that.

44:18Hwee Keng Maeder: He says, first of all, I want to say happy birthday, Singapore. And, you know, the ability to take such an emotional problem or situation and transform it and say, okay, look, I need to project happiness. I need to say this is for you, Singapore. And because people are out there waiting for not my disappointment.

44:43Rachel Lim: And he was 16? 17. 17.

44:47Hwee Keng Maeder: Yeah. So that's the moment we said, our boy has grown up. We are happy because he understood what it meant for people and what it meant for him and how he translated this. And he could put all of that aside, all his own disappointment in himself. You will hear later on in his interviews, he says, yes, I was disappointed, but I understood that the public was awaiting a different me. I couldn't be that me that was disappointed and everything. I can't drag everybody into my personal emotions.

45:16Rachel Lim: What do you think, looking back and based on that moment, was all the years of impartation and parenting that you did that also led to that maturity?

45:28Hwee Keng Maeder: Okay, that comes back to reframing. You see, a lot of people say, oh, this is so difficult, that's difficult, difficult, difficult. Or parenting is a chore for a lot of people. But we find parenting a big joy because the way I look at it is I get an opportunity to face my own devils improve myself, grow, and bring joy and have fun with them. And in this whole process, we had a lot, a lot of memories, fun, and laughter and joy. Of course, there are very frustrating moments, but I think that's always the reframe. You know, like I said, once you, when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change.

46:10Rachel Lim: And it's exactly like that in the most frustrating and heart-wrenching times of, you know, raising your kids, at the end of the day, when you look at them, what do you still see, still choose to see?

46:23Hwee Keng Maeder: I'm happy because I know that they are going to make it in life. They may not, I don't know who they will become, but I think they are equipped to be fit for life.

46:34Rachel Lim: And what's the definition of making it

46:36Hwee Keng Maeder: in life. Fit for life, that means given any situation, they are probably going to make good of the situation and they can come out at the other end a better or more, they are not damaged by the circumstances. I have that confidence. Wow.

46:54Rachel Lim: Wee King, thank you so much for always sharing your wisdom, your stories, even the difficult stories and we really appreciate you for that. Thank you. Thank you.