#59: What Success Never Prepared Me For with Ingck

0:00Rachel Lim: Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of the Who We Are podcast. My guest today is someone millions of people know as the founder of Ingu. To many, he's the trusted voice behind some of the internet's most honest skincare advice. But before there was a skincare brand, before there were millions of followers, before people trusted his opinion, there was simply a young boy struggling with acne, trying to make sense of an industry that promised so much, but often left people more confused than before. What started as a personal search for answers slowly became something much bigger. He began teaching all of us how to read ingredient lists, question marketing claims, and think more critically about the products we were using.

0:45Rachel Lim: And in 2022, he made what I imagine was the biggest leap of all. He stopped reviewing other people's products and launched his own. Overnight, the person asking the difficult questions became the person being questioned. And I really found myself wondering, what does it feel like to carry that kind of trust? And what does success demand of you? Today's conversation isn't just about skincare or entrepreneurship. It's a conversation about identity, courage, trust, and what it takes to truly stay true to yourself when the world starts believing in you. This is my conversation with Inc. Welcome, Ng!

1:26Hi, thank you so much for having me.

1:28Rachel Lim: You know, Ng, millions of us know you as the founder of Ingu, but I want to start way back, you know, before the internet knew your name. If we were to meet 15-year-old Ng, what would surprise us most about him? 15-year-old Ng? Actually, I feel like we're very similar still. I'm very bubbly. I'm very happy. As a child, I think I grew up with a very good childhood and for some reason always knew that I was going to be an entrepreneur someday. Really? Yes. I always knew when I was in first grade, second grade, I was going to be talking in front of people. I was going to be running my own business.

2:14It was just something I always knew.

2:16Rachel Lim: Where did that come from? I think part of it might be from my parents. They're both very successful entrepreneurs. So growing up, it was never a question for me. It was always like, oh, what am I going to build? How am I going to change the world? So you grew up with your parents and they were also deep in beauty manufacturing. What was your childhood like? You mentioned that you grew up in a very good childhood. What's the definition of a good childhood? My parents gave me the freedom to do pretty much what I wanted. I got to study what I wanted to do. They were like the controlling type of parents.

2:58But at the same time, I saw them both in the beauty industry growing up as a child. So my father's side of the family has been making cosmetics, skin care, hair care for some of the biggest names for like over 70 years at this point. But at the same time, my mom's family, they were also distributors for some really big global brands in Thailand in the beauty sector as well. and so I was I grew up under a lot of people who are very talented who worked behind the scenes in the beauty industry even like my aunts and uncles are very talented chemists and formulators so I might for some reason my memory from like when I was a child is very bad like I don't remember a lot of things but one memory that I remember very clearly is on the weekends I would go into the lab like at the factory and formulate like lip gloss or lipstick or like fun things with my aunts and uncles.

3:56So that was like that really made an impression on me growing up.

4:00Rachel Lim: Growing up, especially, you know, your parents also shared that they wanted you to find your own path. You didn't necessarily have that burden of continuing the family business. Yes, which is that's why I always say I'm so lucky and I call myself a Nepo baby. And that word, it actually it goes very deep because as you've said, I think the luckiest thing I have is parents who didn't put a lot of pressure on their children to have to go into a certain career path or like take a certain subject at school because I think they were comfortable enough to be like, okay, you know, we have a successful business.

4:37We just want our children to grow up happy and do what they want to do. And I always think, you know, it's probably destiny or something that I came back into the beauty industry by my own will. and it all worked out for everyone at the end and that is usually the most powerful don't you

4:53Rachel Lim: think that it's by choice and you make that choice to want to do that you're exactly right like I know a lot of people my friends growing up their parents were very strict and they didn't have a lot of freedom growing up and some of them are aren't very happy in what they do currently but so that's why I'm always so I say I'm so lucky because I got to grow up in the way that I wanted and then somehow came back to the family business. And my parents are still happy about that. I'm sure. Because, you know, throughout your growing up years, you also pursued music and then you studied business before also working in consulting.

5:30Yeah, I was all over the place. I went to college and my freshman year, I studied music. And then because I didn't have the pressure to go into a certain field. And I love music. I love singing. I play the saxophone. I play the piano. So my childhood was very focused on music, actually. And then after freshman year, because the school is very competitive, I met so many talented musicians there.

5:58Rachel Lim: And this was in America? Yes, it was in New York at the time. And I just felt like I lost my passion for it because it became too competitive. And from a hobby that I enjoyed doing, it became something much more serious. I left after a year and a half. And you knew that that wasn't what you wanted to continue doing. Yeah. I knew pretty early on that I probably wanted to go back into something more like entrepreneurial, practice that part of my brain. Because I love speaking to people. I love creating things. And it didn't necessarily have to be in the music industry. It could be creating, using my creativity for other things.

6:42And I knew business was probably broad enough for me to explore where I could excel in and possibly want to build something. Yeah.

6:51Rachel Lim: And so after that, you graduated and then you worked in consulting. Yes. So after business school, I went into consulting because that's what all of my peers were doing. So it was either finance or consulting for business school grads. So I chose consulting and I was, to be very honest with you, very miserable. What was it like back then? How did you know that you were miserable? So I think I'm a very creative person. And in consulting, there's a lot of things that you have to do by the book, very much like a process kind of job. So I didn't get to use a lot of that part of my brain. And there are people who love consulting and I understand why.

7:39And are very good at it. But it took everything I had to be good at it. And I feel like I was going against the current so much in consulting. It was draining me. Like I would come back and I'd be like out of energy, even though it might not have been the hardest tasks, but it was just not something that fulfilled me. So on the weekends, I would take formulation classes at a local university to learn more about skincare, cosmetics. And so even though I had a full work week and consulting was very demanding, I was working early morning until late at night or sometimes like early morning to early morning.

8:18Oh, no. But even though it was a lot of work, on the weekends, instead of resting, my resting actually was taking classes and learning about formulation.

8:26Rachel Lim: And you chose to do that. I chose to do it because it was something that fulfilled me creatively. So from an outsider looking in, it might seem like I had no free time at all. But actually, those classes were what fueled me at the time. And it was like my outlet of creativity. I'm always on the fence about giving advice to the younger generation on this topic because I'm a Nepo baby. And because even if I quit, yeah, even if I quit midway through, I still had support from my family. And so I'm always telling people, sometimes following your passion might not be feasible. And it's not for everyone because at the end of the day, you need to make a living.

9:08And I completely understand that. And I don't want to sound like out of touch with anyone. So I'm always saying I'm very lucky to be able to quit and pursue something else that I really enjoy.

9:18Rachel Lim: And you also shared openly before that, you know, there was a season in your life where there was so much uncertainty. You didn't even know what you were going to pursue, what you're going to end up doing. What was that season like? And how did that uncertainty feel like for you? I feel like I had many phases of uncertainty for sure. Like even going to school, like was music school the right choice or after graduation, everyone was going into consulting or finance. So I sort of just went along with it, even though I knew even before I applied that it probably wasn't going to be for me. or even taking formulation classes and going into cosmetics.

9:55I also didn't know what that was going to materialize into. But I'm the type to go with the flow. Like I know that every experience or every hardship that I go through will probably come back to benefit me somehow, even though I might not see it at the moment. But getting through these different chapters, like looking back now, every single part of my life that I went through came back to support me in my current career today. Like, for example, like music school taught me how to be confident in front of people, how to hold a stage, how to talk in front of the camera, perhaps. Consulting, definitely those two years were so valuable.

10:37Like looking back now, like so valuable in how I run my business today, even though it was such a short period of time, I was able to see which aspects were needed to run a brand. And of course, formulation, going to classes and reading the studies, even though they were super boring sometimes, but it's like my bread and butter and everything that I do today.

10:59Rachel Lim: What interests you or what intrigued you to want to study formulations? It was during COVID. And I think because I was watching a lot of YouTube. And I was getting very into like self-care at the time, as I'm sure a lot of people were during COVID as well. But I noticed that, you know, on one end we had like doctors giving very in-depth information. But on the other hand, there were beauty bloggers showing like the before and afters, how textures felt on their skin. But there was like a space, a gap exactly in the content market for people who could make science easy to understand, fun and adaptable for the everyday consumer.

11:43I knew, you know, my family had all the knowledge. So I was learning a lot from doing as well with my aunts and uncles. And with the classes on the weekends, I was building my knowledge on skincare and formulation and how to pick good skincare, basically. And so that's eventually what led to my YouTube channel and my content.

12:05Rachel Lim: And how did you start? What was the first episode? What was going through your mind that you decided to want to start a YouTube channel? Great question. I think it was out of frustration. Right. Because after having all this newfound knowledge of ingredients and looking at the studies, I realized that actually there's a lot of marketing that's making consumers confused. And I make content today. Every clip that I make, I envision myself as that high school student who still struggles with acne. And I try to speak to him in a way that's as easy to understand as possible. Because there's so much marketing noise in the industry right now.

12:49And jargons.

12:50Rachel Lim: Exactly. And everyone's trying to sell and everyone's trying to push products because we live in a capitalist market. But what ends up happening is consumers are more confused than ever. They're using too many steps. They're falling for marketing claims that might not be the most honest or the most transparent for them. So that was the moment where I took my iPad, put it on the ground, used the front camera of my iPad, and then started filming on my living room floor. That was my first clip ever. I think it was a review of a very popular skincare product in Thailand at the moment. And how did it do?

13:27I was so surprised because I thought there were going to be like five viewers. Me, my mom, my best friend. but i posted and then i remember i posted it during like in the evening i went to bed i woke up the next morning and it had like 50 000 views on youtube which was like this is you like youtube era zero subscribers and like people have to understand like youtube back then was not like tiktok today it was really hard to get views especially as someone just algorithm isn't still at launch yeah with zero subscribers and i found out that my clip went viral on um twitter at the time so because it was such a novel concept for both the skincare industry and the content market in thailand at that time like nobody was reviewing based on ingredients putting out the studies uh my channel was called basically flipping behind the box of a skincare to try and decipher that ingredients list, which is oftentimes like alien language to the average consumer.

14:37So the concept was very new, and that's why I think it went viral straight away.

14:41Rachel Lim: What were the comments like, you know, for your viral video? Very controversial. Very controversial as with anything that goes viral. I know, but it was especially controversial, I think, because there weren't many people questioning the marketing behind the beauty industry at the time. It was very new. Like people were protective of brands, especially because I think the first clip that I made, I reviewed a like a fan cult favorite product at the time. And it was like a more expensive skincare as well. And so a lot of people, I think, thought that I was attacking their lifestyle because you have to understand that like skincare is not just some people view it not just for like for your skin, but it's like a representation of your lifestyle and your spending power.

15:29Yes, and your social class.

15:31Rachel Lim: Exactly. And so because I was reviewing it from like a very scientific perspective and just calling them out a little bit on like what I think was maybe like a little bit in the gray area, it got a lot of attention from a lot of people. So the rest was history. Basically, I went all in. I remember, I think I was still doing my consulting job, still doing weekend classes and doing YouTube. And I commit to myself that I was going to post one clip per week. That's a lot of work. That's a lot of work. For YouTube. So you edited the videos yourself? Everything was on my own. I was scripting. Like right after work, I come home like 8 p.m., 9 p.m., script through the night until maybe 2 or 3 a.m., wake up at 7 a.m.

16:25or 8 a.m., filmed the clip right before heading to work and then repeat.

16:30Rachel Lim: With like swollen puppy face and everything. Yeah, basically. That was a lot of work. You must have known that you must really enjoy it and are passionate about it. I was having so much fun. Yeah? I was like on lunch breaks at work. I would because I in Thai culture, it's very weird to have lunch alone. So people like to have lunch together. But I remember telling them, I'm just gonna have lunch at my table because I was scripting and eating. And yeah, but at a certain point, it became too much. And I was, I told myself I had to choose between consulting or YouTube, which wasn't a very difficult decision at the time anymore.

17:08Rachel Lim: But at which point was it? Was it when your YouTube had, let's say, 100 ,000 subscribers? Or at which point was this where you had to make a choice? Okay, so I made a really big commitment to myself that I wasn't going to take any sponsored reviews for one whole year. Because I wanted to prove the concepts of the channel. I didn't want my viewers to feel like, oh, he's sold out or he's now just like reviewing brands. And so there was like a debate in me of like, okay, should I, because I'm not making money from YouTube at all, should I continue this daytime job to at least like have some money to sustain myself?

17:46So I quit the job and then I went full in on YouTube without making any money from YouTube at all.

17:53Rachel Lim: And subsequently, walk us through the journey when you decided to produce your own products. Okay, so I think I was doing content for about three or four years. And just reviewing different types of skincare products. I was a full-time content creator. I made it to the top of that career path in like a very short period of time. And I was having a lot of fun because, you know, the influencer life can be a lot of fun. You get to go on brand trips. They fly you out. You get to have free meals. and you get to meet all these wonderful creators. So I was having so much fun. It's a time in my life where I actually really miss.

18:34But I knew I wanted something more than that. I wanted to create change in a larger scale because with content creation, yes, I was influencing people on purchasing. I was educating people. I was pulling the curtain behind the industry. And I felt like I created a lot of change in that career path already. I was at about like probably like a million followers combined at that point. And I thought to myself, okay, I already created change within the consumer landscape and within other brands in the market. They were like becoming, everyone was suddenly becoming more science-led, becoming more like giving more importance to studies, clinical trials.

19:20More discerning. Yeah, so the whole industry was very much like, science-led at that moment. And I thought, okay, maybe it's now time to create change within the manufacturing side as well and holding our standards within Thailand to a higher level. So I created Ingu as sort of like a social experiment brand in the beginning to see whether I could take all of the core values and all the things that I've been saying about transparency, honesty on this YouTube channel and turn it into products that people can actually buy and use and set like a new bar or a new example for the whole industry in Thailand of, you know, Thai skincare can actually be on the global level or it can actually be science-led and not just herbal or like spa products or, you know, very like hospitality vibes, which is what Thai skincare has been known for for the longest time.

20:18Rachel Lim: Yeah. And what gave you that courage to do that? Because I think there is also some emotional safety in, you know, being a skincare reviewer. Oh, for sure. And what made you also have that courage to decide that, okay, from critiquing products or empowering people to learn how to read products to also step into the arena yourself where people would start critiquing and reviewing your products. Exactly. It was a very tough decision because now I'm putting myself on the hot seat. Now I'm not just reviewing other products, but people are reviewing my products as well. And in Thai, there's a saying called 八道.

20:55It basically means, oh, you've been like yapping a lot. Now people are like going to yap about you.

21:04Rachel Lim: And you chose to put yourself there. Yes. Yeah. And it's really admirable also because I think this is a huge industry that has been traditionally unquestioned. No one really overturns the stones. And it's traditionally also dominated by the big brands and the big businesses. Yeah. When also did you realize that, you know, your viewers were not just watching your videos, but really trusting what you are saying? I think at the end of the day, people might look at my content as being like very dodgeball, very scientific, you know, but I've come to realize that skincare is very emotional. Like even people who watch me, they're watching on a very emotional level.

21:52They might not understand 100 % of all the things I'm saying, but they feel like if they're watching me, they're part of a community. They're part of like a larger group of consumers who want to be smarter, who want to make better decisions and who are holding brands accountable and asking better questions. And not just listening to the marketing, but like actually wanting to know more than that. So it's a very emotional journey. And because the channel grew so quickly, you know, I get people coming up to me all the time saying, you know, how they've changed their routine. Their skin has become so much better.

22:27They finally moved beyond their problems like acne or pigmentation or even like fine lines. And I'm realizing that, you know, my content is actually not just scientific, but it's very emotional. Yes, and it's changing lives.

22:45Rachel Lim: Exactly. Now, take us back to the night before you launched Ingu. What was it like? Where were you? How were you feeling? I was so scared. Yeah. Um, I started the brand with my brother, who's my co-founder. It was just the two of us and one intern who was still in college at a local university, like right next to my office. So we recruited her for like printing the labels and like helping us pack. I remember the first batch we produced about 10 ,000 units. So it was at the time for me, I thought it was like, oh my gosh, I'm never going to be able to sell all of this. It'll take me like a year to sell all of this.

23:27And what was the first product? Sunscreen, moisturizer, and cleanser. Okay. So the foundation. Yeah. We sold on Shopee first on the first day. And I remember at noon, I switched on the button. I was like, okay, we're going live at noon. And within five minutes, not even like three minutes, I think we sold out of 10 ,000 units.

23:53Rachel Lim: Wait, 10 ,000 combined or each product? Each product, 10 ,000. In three minutes? Sold out. Yeah. And you had literally no advertising? None whatsoever. No billboards? Nothing. It was all, it was just one clip on my YouTube channel and telling my viewers, okay, see you guys tomorrow at noon. My product's going to be up in the world now. And it sold out. What was it like? It was hard on everyone because it was a happy problem. It is. But we were printing orders. I think my parents were helping as well, recruiting my friends and family. Everyone was like helping to pack. And because the thing with skincare is once you're sold out, it takes a long time to be able to get that new batch in.

24:41What's the timeline? At least two to three months was the lead time for the next batch. I was lucky because our first three products were made with our family's factory. But even still, we didn't have control over the lead time for all the chemicals that we use. So it took a long time for us to get back in stock. And I was very scared that the momentum was going to like die down. Yeah, that was like a genuine fear for me at the time. But when the consumers got the products, they started reviewing them. And then there was like a waiting list. So people were actually like waiting for the next batch as well.

25:18Rachel Lim: What was it like mentally and emotionally when you sold out? There's, I always talk about the good times because, you know, look, I like to inspire people. And I like to represent myself as like a very happy character. And that's what everyone sees. And I was very happy, of course, that consumers were loving the products. But at the same time, there were also groups of people who were very much against my brand, even till today, because they viewed me as a character who was reviewing products before and then somehow launched this brand. There were some characters who probably thought I knew from day one from my content that I was...

26:03Rachel Lim: You had plotted this. I was, yeah, I was going to create my own brand and cash out and talk bad about other brands in order to like sell his own products. There were a lot of people who thought that in the beginning as well. I can imagine it must have been so hard to be so misunderstood, especially knowing you. I know how much of a sincere and like genuine person you are. I think back then it must have like really eaten you and it must have been so hard being so misunderstood. Yes. I'm also because I hate being misunderstood. I think it's human nature to hate that. But because I think a lot of the hate also came from not just like strangers, but people close to me, like within the influencer community, people who I've hung out with, who I've, you know, gone to events with, sat right across from, been very nice to.

26:56like a lot of those people were suddenly like they turned against me when I launched the brand as well so that was a very hard thing to like wrap my head around there were moments where I was like oh I remembered filming a video just last year of me saying goodbye basically to YouTube and the whole industry I filmed it I edited it it's done it's in my laptop and it's still sitting there because I haven't had the courage to post it oh I'm like getting goosebumps I've never told anyone this before. But yeah, there were definitely moments where I'm like, I'm done with this. Like, I don't want to be misunderstood anymore.

27:33Like, I don't want to like bear this feeling anymore. Yeah.

27:37Rachel Lim: Have you ever questioned whether this is worth it? Everything that you're trying to do? All the time. All the time. Like, part of me just sometimes just wants to like, quit everything, move abroad, like live a quiet life. But I always come back to my senses and come back to my core values or like why I'm doing this because I'm realizing like these people are literally gaslighting me and like telling things about me that aren't true. And the moment I give that value, I'm accepting it as the truth. So what I do is, well, I have to thank my partner who's sitting over there as well. Like Chert's been like a rock for me during tough times.

28:21And I always try to think very positively. Like imagine all the people who have come up to me to say hi, all the people who've sent me letters and come to my meetups and telling me, you know, their skin has changed completely for the better. Like I'm changing people's lives and I'm changing the industry. I'm making tea beauty global. I'm pushing all of us, my competitors brands, my peers within the same industry, global. And it's a mission that's much larger than me at this point. And so listening to the small minority, no matter how loud they can be sometimes and how persistent they can be sometimes, is pointless.

29:04Rachel Lim: When you look back at some of the hardest seasons that you have had to go through, what do you think besides, you know, thinking of the community and the impact that you have made that has kept you going, what do you think is the hardest part or what do you think is something that's so hard for you to let go that you would replay in your head again and again? Many, many, many painful moments that I replay constantly in my head. I think the last one that really was like my last straw was last year when I reviewed another Thai brand. I picked up their body sunscreen, which was an amazing formula.

29:46I'm very close to the founders as well. So I was doing this clip as a recommendation to that specific product. And I was saying something along the lines of, this body sunscreen is terrific. The ingredients are great. The sunscreen filters are so good. So I would actually use this on my face because it's such a good sunscreen. And in the industry, you know, sometimes people are creating new categories for things just because they want to create new SKUs. But if you look at the formulation, sometimes a hand cream could work for your face. A body cream could work for your hands. You know, it's very much like a marketing framework.

30:22And so that's what I pointed out in the video. And I didn't think much of it because I was giving a genuine recommendation as I usually do. But the backlash that I got was insane. Like I was on the news in Thailand for this because people were saying, how are you going to take responsibility if someone used this product on their face and it like broke them out? Or, you know, how, why are you giving the wrong instructions for a competitor's brand? Like, are you trying to make people like break out or something from a competitor's product? And I was shocked. Like, to be completely honest, I, like, I told, I told my partner, like, maybe I should stop reviewing skincare for good.

31:08Like, maybe I should just sell all my cameras. I immediately, on the first day, I called the founder. I was like, this was not at all my intention. He was like, oh, so chill, whatever.

31:18Rachel Lim: Like, because he sold out of the products. He sold out on that day. And he, you know, he's living his life. He's in Korea now. He's like, oh, whatever. Like, thank you. But the mood, the public mood was enraged. Like people were up in arms. Like I couldn't sleep for like a week. But I'm the type of person to never show my weakness ever. I've been through dozens of similar events in the past, like in my six or seven years reviewing products. But I never once spoke out because I always thought to myself, if I speak out, I'm acknowledging the haters and I never want them to see how much they've affected me mentally.

32:14This is actually the first time I'm telling this as well. But I still feel that with my Thai audience, if I even come out to defend myself, I'm giving them the attention that they so desperately want. And most of these people, as I've said, are peers from when I was an influencer. So they're people I know. And we've sat across each other for years and years.

32:40Rachel Lim: It must have felt even more painful. Oh, for sure. Because the industry isn't big. Especially influencers who review skincare products from like a scientific perspective. It's not a big community. And what hurts the most, I think, is even my best friends within that community don't ever come out to defend me on anything publicly. they they come over of course and and we we like hang out we talk about it and we trauma dump on on each other but they never defend me publicly and I think in Thai it's called like a little bit so I I do feel that um sometimes I feel like I I like am I asking too much or I try to put myself in their shoes as well.

33:38Like if they were the ones being attacked online, would I come to their defense? Because people don't want to get dragged into all this firestorm all the time. I completely understand that. But yeah, it's also like, sometimes I feel like, oh, like why isn't anyone coming to defend me at all ever?

33:57Rachel Lim: And so you would just choose to not respond? Never. I never respond. But what happens in those closed doors where, especially in the nights that come and it gets especially tough and lonely? It does. It takes a toll on you mentally for sure. Last year was the first year I had panic attacks. I remember the first time I thought I was going to die. It was during a different episode, a different drama right before the sunscreen one. And that one was very tough on me as well because it had to do with our products. So there was this organization in Thailand called something along the lines of Consumers Group or something like that.

34:41But it didn't have anything to do with the government, I think. They ran an article called Can Influencer Sunscreens Be Trusted? And they went out into the market and they tested, I think it was like 30 or 40 different sunscreens from influencer brands. And my brand was one of the ones that they tested. And our SPF came in at about, I don't remember the specific number, but 40 something, like 45, 46 out of the 50 that we were claiming. And we got immediately so much hate, which I completely understand as a consumer. We need to hold brands accountable. Like I'm the one who's been speaking out about sunscreen claims for years and years and sunscreen testing.

35:30And I completely understand from that point of view. And then so I immediately thought, okay, I need to go back and speak to my manufacturers. Like what went wrong? Like how do we improve this? But I had the instinct to call them and check which method they use to check the SPF. So they did what was called in vitro testing. So what I told you was just the camera testing on like a plate, basically, while we test our sunscreens in vivo. Because I've been talking about this for years and years. And the thing with testing with the camera is it really depends on how much sunscreen you apply on the plate.

36:08Many factors. It could go from SPF 400 to 50 to zero based on how much, how strong you're like painting. Layers and a bit. Exactly. And we've been testing in vivo since we launched the brand. But it was too late to communicate that. And it went super viral. Like every Thai person probably saw that on the news.

36:28Rachel Lim: So that was when you realized that the testing method was different from what you had. Yes. So I immediately whipped out my phone, put on the table, and I started filming. I started trying to explain everything. Because you know what the worst thing is for an SME brand? It's when your own employees start to question. And to doubt. Yeah, to doubt the brand, that was probably the worst thing out of the whole situation. And so you decided you had to speak up. I had to speak up not just for myself, but for my brand, for my employees, for my consumers, my viewers. And it was so hard because I knew if I came out as like, you know, strong, like personality wise, it would cause even more backlash.

37:11Because the thing with Thai culture is you have to be very respectful of everyone. So I started the clip by thanking them. Thank you so much for looking out for the consumers, which, you know, I really thought that way. Genuinely, like they're out here like testing products without getting any money, I think, as well. And so I thanked them for that. But I explained very clearly, very in a way that was not emotional at all, what the situation was, how we test our sunscreen. and the next day I went back to the factory. I took people through the whole process of how we test our sunscreen.

37:48Rachel Lim: And you filmed that. Yeah, at the factory. And that clip, thank goodness, also went viral. Oh, great. And so we ended up selling a lot of our sunscreen as well because of that event. But it was very, very tough emotionally. And I thank God that I am a character who's been online for years and years. And so I had the platform to be able to speak out for my brand. Yes. In the moment where it mattered the most. And when you needed the most as well. Yeah. You know, you talked also a little bit earlier on panic attacks. What do you think your body was trying to tell you that perhaps your mind hasn't registered when you had the panic attacks?

38:27Rachel Lim: And what was it like? So I've come to learn this, that your mental health and your physical health might be on different servers, basically. Like my mind was telling me I was fine. I felt like I was fine mentally. I usually work on the weekends, like at a cafe somewhere because I feel like more productive there. By yourself. Yeah. So it was a normal weekend. I was working, scripting as usual, and I was alone. My partner was doing surgery at the time. and I just started feeling like I couldn't feel my hands and I couldn't feel my face and then suddenly I couldn't breathe and I was like oh I'm going to die so it was a very public cafe very busy but traffic as well I had to lie down on the floor so I was like on the floor and I had my phone I couldn't move my fingers like it was all frozen at the time and then I had to like tell Siri call Chert right now.

39:30And he was in surgery, but he picked up thankfully. And at the time, I couldn't even open my eyes because it was shut, closed. Like I couldn't move my whole body. And even telling the story right now, my hands are starting to like freeze up a little bit.

39:46Rachel Lim: But then... So thank goodness he picked up even though he was in the surgery. Yeah, and he knew straight away that it was a panic attack because... Have you had episodes like this? No, that was the first time ever in my life because that week was a particularly stressful week for me um and so he knew before me even and he hung up he called the restaurant manager straight away and but they were already um they were already on top of me at the time so um they had like a cloth or something i don't know because i my eyes were shut closed at the moment and they made sure like people in the public weren't like taking pictures or anything because it was a very public cafe and and people probably knew who i was as well.

40:26Rachel Lim: And so what happened after that? Like, did they send you to the hospital? So they gave me the yadom in Thai, like the inhaler. Oh, of course, the famous one. And it worked? It worked. It worked, surprisingly. And so you calmed down. I calmed down and I drove myself to the hospital. My hands were still like this, but I had to like navigate myself to the nearest hospital. And you checked yourself in. I checked myself in. But by the time I saw the doctor, I was like much better. And he was like, oh, yeah, it was just an episode. It was a panic attack. So what do you learn about your body and yourself from the episode?

41:03Rachel Lim: I learned to trust my physical body more. Right. Because as I said, it's very different. And there were signs like I've been getting like heavy in the chest area for weeks and weeks before. Like tightening. Very tight. Like my stomach and my chest are the usual areas where I feel them first. And I've learned that even though mentally you could be completely fine, listen to your body. Like your body is trying to tell you something. Like listen to it. And so now I do like mental exercises, breathing exercises where I'm like, okay, I need to like focus on breathing deeply. I need to like tell my body like I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine.

41:40Rachel Lim: And check in on the different parts. Exactly. And that's been my journey in the past year. Did any other similar episodes happen from there? Yeah, I had like a dozen panic attacks after that as well. A dozen panic attacks? Yeah, at least a dozen. When do you realize and tell yourself that I can't go on like this? The panic attacks always seem to come when I'm doing one thing, which is writing my script. Super weird, but... Which is weird because you seem to enjoy it. Yes, but writing scripts in Thai. So that was the moment where I knew I had to start making content in English. What was it in Thai that represented so much deeper?

42:29I think it's because of all the hate that I've received throughout the years. And even though I'm mentally very strong, I get through all of them. But it's taken a toll on my body.

42:42Rachel Lim: That you might not even have fully accepted and registered. Exactly. And every time I'm scripting, part of me probably at the back of my head is thinking, what if this is the script that causes more drama or that causes more backlash? And then I have to go through all of that emotional trauma again and again and again. And so that was the point where I filmed the video that I told you about of me saying goodbye to everyone. A script that I didn't go through with, even though I finished the video, like I have it with me, ready to post whenever. But I feel like I owe it to my community to continue.

43:22I'm always thinking like the haters probably represent like 0.0001 % of the population but even though I know that I can't deny the fact that it's taken a toll on me mentally and I hate I hate to say that because I feel like I'm disappointing the 99 % and I'm giving more power to the minority but also I can't deny my feelings and I I've learned to accept whatever emotions come my way and feel like less guilty of it, I think.

43:59Rachel Lim: So when you go through times where there might be some unkind comments, how do you talk yourself through that? I tell myself time heals everything and it does. I look back at some of the things that I've been through, no matter how unfair it was, I feel like I'm much better at regulating my emotions. And also, I think back to my community all the time, as I've said. I'm doing it with the right purpose, with the right intention. My North Star, my compass is very clear. I'm doing this for consumers. I'm holding brands accountable to be more transparent, to be more honest. I'm showing the world these core values through my products and most recently I'm trying to make the world understand tea beauty as a whole and not just my brand but like even my competitor's brand I'm like recommending them all the time because I think we should grow together and not necessarily like fight each other with price wars and and in this pursuit of this mission and everything that you have done the impact that you have made you know what are some tangible steps that you've also taken and added into your rituals that have really helped you become more grounded and mentally and emotionally strong?

45:20I mean, I have to thank my partner for a lot of this. I feel like, I'm gonna cry.

45:28He's very level-headed, as in very logical. And he always sits me down and makes me understand the bigger picture of like, okay, this is like happening on this level. But your life is so much bigger. There's so much more that you have to do. And your mission is greater than just yourself at this point. So look at the bigger picture and time will heal everything, all wounds. So that's how I usually get through these days.

45:57Rachel Lim: So amazing that you have such a grounding voice in your life to help you through. You know, one thing that I really love and appreciate about you and your content is that you also bring us inside your world through the different aspects of your life, like your relationship. So thank you for, you know, really sharing Kurt with us and his impact in your life. And tell us a little bit more about your love story, your relationship. Honestly, like making content with him has become such a refreshing change for me as well. And I'm so glad that I'm able to show this part of my life with everyone because before this, it was just me, skincare and beauty and formulation.

46:35So I'm really having a lot of fun with it. It's actually helped with my mental health a lot as well.

46:43We've only known each other actually for about three years, so it hasn't been that long. But I knew from day one that he was the one. I finally understand when people say like he's my other half because he literally fills in the gaps where I feel like I'm lacking or where I need support or need help with. And I feel like I do the same for him as well. So we're like, we knew like after we went on two dates. And then after that, we there's never been a day where we were apart. What do you think, you know, that loving Chet and him loving

47:23Rachel Lim: you has taught you that no business or no experience could ever teach you? Oh, that's such a deep question.

47:33He's taught me that there are other things in life other than just your career. And just happiness isn't only derived from pursuing your career or having a lot of money, but happiness is something much larger than that the more I'm doing business and the more I'm like getting more material things in my life I'm realizing that happiness doesn't last happiness is like a spike in your mood like it's a dopamine it's like a dopamine hit exactly but the more dopamine hits you get the higher the bar is raised and the more of it you need so I try to stop myself from chasing dopamine hits but I'm asking like the bigger question what is contentment what does that look like for me and I'm finding more and more that contentment oftentimes happens when I'm at home with my partner with my family with my dogs something I never would have imagined a couple years ago when I started off my career you know I was always like, we have to like hit like$1 million.

48:52We have to hit all these milestones and grow exponentially. But yeah, growth is great, but it's a dopamine hit. And that doesn't really last.

49:04Rachel Lim: I'm so curious about that because I think as a content creator, sometimes your identity is also, or success is defined by numbers, growth in numbers. And as an entrepreneur, success is defined by revenue, sales. So how do you try to separate yourself from that? It's very hard to do that. But I think in Buddhist teachings, I'm Buddhist, there's a saying where you can want something a lot, of course. You can want to succeed in your career. But all the wants you have in your life, think of it as like holding a delicate flower in your palm. Like, you can want it, yes. But if you want it too much, you cling on to it, you hold on to it, then you end up squeezing the flower and you ruin everything.

49:50You ruined your life, your mood, your happiness, everything around you. And so, yes, I want the flower. I want to succeed. But it's all about trying to balance and regulate mentally of like, okay, I have a clear goal that I want to get to. But the journey there is just as important as the final destination.

50:12Rachel Lim: And going back to also your relationship with church, congratulations on the proposal. And you're getting married. Tell us about the proposal. As many details as you can. Yes. He has done such an amazing job. I like did not see it coming at all. I was clueless, like in the dark. And he pulled it off in such a clever way. So because I go to a lot of events as part of my job, like brand events, influencer events, you know. So he told my manager that I had an event with a hair care brand. very popular one which I've done multiple engagements with them in the past and so I didn't think much of it I was like oh just another event that I have to go to and so I got dressed up um hair makeup a nice outfit but my manager was surprisingly like very picky that day and I was like I go to brand events like every other day why suddenly today you're like your hair has to be this way and you still didn't suspect anything no I was just okay you're being a bit much today And then we got in the car, drove to the Four Seasons in Bangkok.

51:24The moment I got out of the car, there were cameras everywhere, like an MC lady came up. So I was like, you know what, weird, but okay, I've seen this before at other brand events, but maybe not to this scale. they walked me through the lobby started asking me some questions like okay how's your

51:45Rachel Lim: how's your brand doing at the moment like typical interview questions I was like okay and then the last question she asked me was like do you have any plans for marriage this year so that's a personal question to ask at a brand event a heck of a brand event exactly I was like okay but still I didn't suspect anything so I answered like yeah we're like looking into marriage probably soon so i think his plan was for me to realize at that point that it was like a proposal but i didn't okay just a random event and then so i got up and then she ushered me through like in the four seasons there's like a courtyard like uh with like ponds like a very nice uh place and then so okay i was trying to upload a clip as well yes because i was like multitasking like uh writing my caption while like giving the interview yeah so I was very much in my own head at the time even walking out onto the courtyard I was like trying to post and then I looked up and he was standing there with flowers but he was wearing a blue shirt and that brand has blue as their CI color so I was like the first thought that ran through my head was yeah Oh, why didn't my manager tell me you were coming to the brand event as well?

53:03Because it was a hair care brand and he's been doing content in hair as well. So we could have come together. Like, why are you wasting gas? And then you could see my face in the clip change from like to, oh. Like, it finally registered. Don't know you.

53:20Rachel Lim: Oh, my God. So Judd was just standing there with a bouquet of flowers and like waiting for you to. Why are you here? And then, oh. And then immediately, waterfall. I was, like, crying immediately. And then he had the organizers build, like, a stage on top of the pond with, like, a very enormous, like, flower arrangement with candles everywhere. I was, like, crying. I could not hold myself in. Oh, my gosh. That was so much thought. Yeah. And he was, like, going through his proposal scripts while he was walking me there. And then I looked over and he managed to get all of my friends and family there as well.

54:04And because I graduated from the U.S. and so most of my friends are from the U.S. And he managed to fly them all in for the proposal. And my father was like bawling his eyes out at the corner because my dad doesn't live in Thailand either. And so he flew in for that. And so that was the proposal. And he had photographers and everything ready. And then he also booked like the waterfront restaurant at the Four Seasons. He booked it all out, the whole venue and had like flowers everywhere. And we had like such a wonderful meal with all of my friends and family. So that was one of the that was probably the best day of my life.

54:43Rachel Lim: It sounds like it is. That was so touching. Oh, I still watch the clips and I cry sometimes. What were you feeling through everything, you know, through this whole night? How lucky I am to have him and how thoughtful of a person he is as well. Because I'm the type to go very fast with decision making. Yeah. But he's like... He pays attention to all the details. He pays attention to all the details and like everything has a symbol or everything has a meaning to like our relationship. Like for example, even the meal that we had, the menu was created or inspired by the first dates that we had together.

55:24And yeah, it was just, everything was perfect.

55:28Rachel Lim: It's so amazing to be able to experience this kind of love. I know. And devotion and affection. Yeah. And the impact it has on you and your life to also want to be better and be better. Exactly. Exactly. But I think also, you know, going back to also your journey, Inc., you know, through everything that you've gone through, the highs and the lows, and it's been really extreme, some of the highs and some of the lows. Do you think the journey has been worth it? For sure. For sure. If I had to do it all again, I would do it in a heartbeat. What do you think all of that has taught you, especially the hardest seasons, has taught you about yourself that it otherwise wouldn't have?

56:13It's taught me happiness and sadness, sorrow, pain. everything is temporary. Time heals everything and time also makes the good times you have to realize as well don't last. Good times don't last. Bad times don't last. It's all about how you regulate yourself and go through life having a clear vision that you're somehow making the world a better place, helping people out there struggling with the same problems that you had, using your experience to make the world a better place. And not taking life too seriously, as I said, holding the flower with an open palm and not putting too much pressure on yourself.

56:58I think that's what's taught me through thick and thin, through the highs and the lows this past couple of years.

57:04Rachel Lim: Yeah, and that's a really beautiful analogy. You know, if you could have a billboard down the biggest streets in the cities of the world, New York, Tokyo, wherever, Bangkok, what would your billboard say and why? I know I think it will say probably say something like don't take life too seriously because we all have our goals our ambitions especially me I'm like a very ambitious person but I've come to realize that your happiness and your contentment that's what's most important in life like if you're trying to chase your dream but you're like miserable all the way through or you don't know how to regulate your emotions, then the journey is already terrible.

57:49And by the time you get to your end goal, it's not going to be a happy life. So living a happy life has become a priority for me. And how do I organize myself, the people around me, my thoughts and emotions, listening to both my mental health and also my body? That's become the most important thing for me. So essential. Yeah.

58:12Rachel Lim: Well, thank you so much, Aang, for coming to Singapore, for coming on the show. We're so excited to have you. Thank you so much for having me. It's been such a therapy session. Well, do you have any final words to say to anyone who's listening in and all your fans in Singapore? I just like to thank everyone in Singapore and everyone watching, no matter where you are, for following my content and my content with my partner now as well. it's been such a whirlwind and such a journey for me in this past year alone coming out and making content in English and seeing the overwhelming response from people all over the world.

58:50It's made me realize that what I'm saying or what I've been doing is bigger than just me. It's like uplifting the whole industry, not just T-Beauty even, but like empowering consumers everywhere in the world to make smarter decisions. so thank you so much for always supporting me and my brand as well

59:09Rachel Lim: of course and thank you so much for having that courage to stay true to your path even when the days are so hard and can get so dark I think you are so much needed in this world and especially for our generation so on behalf of everyone we just sincerely want to thank you no thank you and who you are and we look forward to more from you so thank you thank you so much thank you thank you

59:35Thank you.