#62: Chloe Tong: Marriage First, Life Beyond Labels & Growing With Grab

0:00Rachel Lim: Hi everyone, welcome to Closer. Closer is about the conversations beneath the surface, the ones that help us understand someone more deeply, question something we thought we knew, or recognize a little of ourselves in someone else's story. Today I have a very special guest, Chloe. She's known as the wife of Anthony Tan, co-founder and CEO of Grab. She's also known as a mom of five kids and of the work she is building through Ace Foundation. But I think what was most interesting for me is that the more I've gotten to know her, the more I've been drawn to the deeper story underneath all of that.

0:37Rachel Lim: How she has been shaped by the many different versions of herself that she has had to become along the way. So this is a conversation about building a life that feels anchored even while you're still becoming. Chloe, welcome to the show. Thank you. Wow, I have never had an introduction like that. Thank you so much. You are so, so kind. I'm so excited to get to know you even more deeply. You know, I think from the outside, it really seems like you have it all together. Your life is so anchored. And when I really get to know you, I realize how intentional you have been with building this life, this family, and basically everything that you have today.

1:17Rachel Lim: And it's through the choices you have made, you know, what you've had to surrender and the values you chose to hold close to. So if we may start with, you know, looking back at your life, what do you think are some of the chapters that have really shaped you most deeply? Oh, so many. I am one to embrace every part of my life. But I've also been one that, you know, if you ask me about the difficult periods of my life, I'm sure there were actually many. But I genuinely, it's not at the top of my head. So I think that in itself has really shaped me in that the difficult moments I've gotten through and I've seen the silver lining in it.

1:58Maybe there's a couple that I still can't, but I see the silver lining in it, right? But the major chapters are, for example, I would say having a very larger than life father figure running as he ran a media company and a proud journalist and an economist as he calls himself, fighting for the truth, doing what's right and having courage. I think that is very, very key. You know, I was not one of those kids that were told, you know, that you were kicked under the leg. Don't say this, don't say this. I was, that was not my childhood. And I think that, you know, that made such a difference in being able to articulate your thoughts, standing up for what's right.

2:43Even when the world turns against you, my parents taught me it was okay. What did it sound like in your household growing up? Or what did it also look like? So I grew up really with an, he was in the 90s, probably what a tech entrepreneur is, you know, 12 years ago as well. Very, very forward thinking, always in the office. But I was always in the office too. I remember my dad said he always, you know, when I moved, right after I graduated, I immediately moved back. My dad wanted me to help with the business and join him. And he always brought up this story of how when I was very young, I don't know, seven years old, maybe around there, I would go to the office.

3:23First thing I did, when I was very young, sat in his chair and I just went to everyone, I'm going to sit here one day.

3:29Rachel Lim: Wow. And the boys were like super quiet. And I was just that girl that just, I just, and my dad would just smile. And what was also the relationship like with mom and also with your siblings? Oh, mamas. You know, I can only remember her scolding us twice in my entire life. Does not raise her voice. Super patient. So understanding. And that was why it was so difficult. When you ask me, what's the one thing probably I don't see the silver lining of? It's her passing when I was 18. That's probably the only thing I still can't understand. but you know um but it's so funny you know and my only regrets i have very few regrets and we just don't believe in having regrets but how i sometimes spoke back because i was quite a strong child and you know she passed when i was 18 can you imagine that i was quite a rebellious teenager and so why maybe now i am even more disciplined with my kids and probably my mom was a lot softer than me so usually you can't you you do something a little bit different but it's because i feel so bad that I spoke that way.

4:38And the reason why I'm actually more disciplined with my kids is actually because I don't want them to feel bad one day. That I don't want them to feel guilty about the things they've said.

4:46Rachel Lim: So what do you mean when you say you are more disciplined with your kids? I would not have let them get away with the things that I could say to my mom. So a lot of our generation in particular, I would say many would say their parents were a lot stricter. Yes. And they are a lot softer. We are very reversed. So you're even stricter. I'm definitely strict. My parents were not very strict. Wow, okay. So it's a very interesting switch because I felt like I wish you would have not let me get away with it because I feel so bad that I did that. What do you think that you only understand fully now that your parents gave you or the upbringing that they gave you that you only fully understand now?

5:28Rachel Lim: First, I think love is unconditional. They really lived it, made so many mistakes. I told you I was a very rebellious teenager. Love is unconditional. And when you have received it, it is so much easier to give it. So that's something I really understand now and why it was so important. And I think in my marriage right now, why it is very strong is because I have been able to give that in my marriage. And to someone who has, who really, really, really needed it and who appreciates it so much and will not let that go. So I think the first idea of love is unconditional. The second is, you know, I went to boarding school when I was 11.

6:07The only one. My parents never experienced boarding school. None of my siblings went. My best friend went. I was like, I want to go too. I was very independent, very sporty. I did all the research myself, applied myself. I said, I'm going there. My parents eventually convinced me to go to another one that was all girls. So they felt a little bit safer.

6:24Rachel Lim: I was just determined to go. And you made it happen. And I made it happen. You just paved the way for yourself. And I just kept telling my friend, are you sure? I just kept going. I was so close to my dad. And for my dad to be able to let me go and to try the path in a country he didn't grow up in, but to trust me. But when he trusted me, he, so it was trusting you, but also having this sort of net and catch. Let me go, but he made sure he always dropped me off. He would drive a car across the ferry, on the ferry to make sure that all my bags would get there. Then I would come back on, you know, maybe once a month.

6:58He, you know, my first year in boarding school, for most people who goes away their first year, it's always the toughest year. I cried every week and I wanted to go home. I wanted to give up. So he let me go. I wanted to quit, but he just kind of ignored it. Just said, I will keep coming. He came to sport matches. He would surprise me on random weekends, wearing his suit straight from, you know, Malaysia, fly, transit, take a ferry, because all the businesses were still in Malaysia and I was in an island somewhere in Canada. but he was there as a safety net then after that year he convinced me just to stay second year everything switched I literally went from a C student very shy don't want to get involved in anything to having the confidence in a school that knew I could make mistakes became an A student went into student leadership had opportunities as a female growing up that's where I found my voice

7:51Rachel Lim: and you know a lot of people would say that at that age it can be the most formative years of your life and it could have gone both it could have gone both ways so the biggest thing I see between going both ways because now we're all grown up so I kind of know how everyone turned out I think the first is knowing your child they knew that I would thrive in a more independent environment they knew that I actually needed that to fly even at that age even at that age You know, we had nannies. We had people, right? But no one cares. You learn how to vacuum. You have to make your bed. No, no. You have to fend for yourself.

8:24You have to fend for yourself. Whereas I feel the other group that maybe doesn't flourish as well is abandonment issues. You're sent there because of this. And I think that's very, very different. So I think no matter what in parenting, there's no right or wrong. But as long as it's made out of love and the genuine interest of that child and knowing what that child needs, you can't go so wrong.

8:46Rachel Lim: What do you think would have happened if your dad seeing you, especially in the first year, struggling and crying and wanting to come back? What do you think if he had saved you and just took you out of the school? Gosh, I think that would have been the biggest mistake of my life. Wow. That's where I really learned that I could be a leader. That's where I learned that I was good at sports. That's where I learned if I put my mind to it, I can work harder than others. And even I might not be the brightest in the room, but I can get a higher mark if I put my head to it. I learned how to live with, you know, at one point I actually left the boarding house and you could live with a local family.

9:22And I lived with a local, you know, Canadian family. And it was so different, right? Just appreciating all these things. And so no matter how blessed we were in our life, I just feel like I always knew how to be grateful. I always knew that we were so, I didn't take any of it for granted. And you learn, you learn very, very important relationship skills,

9:49Rachel Lim: which I think the youth have a harder time today. You know, Chloe, if I can go back to your mom, you know, before we continue on with our kids, because, you know, earlier when you spoke about your mom, I could really also sense that tenderness that you have for her. What was your mom like? And also, what do you think she represented to you and in you, and especially after losing her? You know, this is a really tough one. and why I think for most of my, maybe teenagehood, all my friends were usually boys. And why I actually was really, really a tomboy. So my mom is a lot softer, more girly, very kind.

10:27And I was always the closest to my dad. And very similar to my dad. Very driven, very clear, less emotional.

10:37It was hard because as parents, you realize that with four siblings, it's not that they love the other more or choose to love. Sometimes you have to be closer to one because you know that child needs it. And I was not that child because I was the child that could figure everything out. The independent one. And the one that was already close to my dad. And the one that my dad was choosing to bring to the office all the time. So I would say my mom was closer to the boys, particularly, you know, the younger ones as well. So I do feel sometimes that is very hard because when someone passes, and this is only something I've come to terms with lately, you feel like you can only, you can't have one negative thought about them or you feel so guilty or you're not grateful.

11:24But also now finding that she was amazing and so nurturing, but it was okay to also say it was not perfect. That's a very recent shift in me that has helped me in my parenting as well or even acknowledging that I need to admit when I have biases in my children. I need to admit that I'm over-indexing on a child and I need to be upfront with my kids. Why? So rather than shove it, oh, I'm spending more time with this one and pretending that there's no favourites, it isn't. You love your kids all the same but one kid will need you more in different seasons. You will naturally do certain things with one kid more because of this, because of their interest, because of time, just because of life.

12:09But don't shove it under because then it makes you feel like, hey, what is it about me? Did I do something wrong?

12:16Rachel Lim: So I think that has shifted also a little bit. Be honest with yourself first. And then don't sweep it under because kids know. If you even have that thought, kids know that, oh, why are you choosing this one more? Why are you... So how should we approach it, right? Because I can also understand to a large extent what you're trying to say, right? I mean, you have five kids. I can imagine how, you know, you have a variety of personalities and kids that have different needs. And how should we feel about it as parents? Because it's true that I do feel, oh my goodness, I better suppress it. I was so worried about it.

12:47I found a counselor. I found therapy. I actually spoke about it a lot to Anthony, how I feel. So I think that's the first step is you got to admit to yourself. And as a mom, that's very, very, very difficult. But I now make it quite clear. So for example, you know, I have one kid who is naturally a little bit more quiet, who doesn't stand up for himself, who doesn't say as much. And he has a lot more one-on-one time, intentional one-on-one dates, especially with my husband who I set up. And so the other kids would say, why does he get to go every week? I don't have a one-on-one date. So I actually pulled them aside and I talked about it.

13:23And I asked them, how do you think his personality is like? How do you think you are like? Do you think he's the type that needs a little bit more time? And he goes, yeah, he really does. And then they're like, that's totally okay. Because I just said it up front. I didn't go, oh, you get your time too. Yeah, try and strip it under the carpet. Don't do that. Just tell them. They understand. They actually can empathize and love their sibling more versus being resentful. Right. And now that they understand, they're like, oh, I think he needs someone on my time. Right? Because they get it. Because he acts out in other ways than if he doesn't have that cup filled.

13:56So I think it's just different seasons. but I think being open about it is really a surprise

14:03Rachel Lim: you know for yourself Chloe have you always known that you wanted to have kids and so many kids I don't know five but four was the minimum so technically it has to be five I mean I wanted my sister so much I just remembered every single birthday for at least five years all I prayed for and wished was a little sister and when she came when my parents I can remember that day I have so few of these kind of core memories. Core memories. I remember the exact day, still in my school uniform, running home. My mom was just lying on the bed. I go to see my dad in the office. My dad says, mommy has something to tell you.

14:38They go together and they tell me. And I just, I was in love before I met her. And my little sister was my first child, you know. Yeah, she just got married. Best day of my life. So it's just, I always had that in me. But the struggle was, I was also so ambitious. So I never knew what was going to happen Because I was the one that worked so hard I did a double degree in three years So I finished one year earlier Because I spent every summer in school Doing maximum amount of courses I graduated with honours in business and economics I just, I was the head girl of my school And as like an Asian girl in Canada I was the head girl of my school That's amazing So I was so determined And I never knew how that would play out, but I was also so maternal.

15:29And if I'm very honest with myself, watching my mom be a 100 % homemaker, then watching my dad go off, it made me a little bit resentful too. So that was also quite hard to watch growing up. And what were you resentful about? How she was sometimes treated by others. I was with them so often, with my dad so often, and they were treated so differently.

15:54And yet I knew how much more she did. How every... You know, one of those people that like come home from school, she's just always there. She just always wanted to be there. Not in your face, but just she was always present. Picks up on the second ring, no matter where I was in boarding school, no matter what time it was. My dad was very impatient, always on the run. And she just never broke a sweat. But yet she was treated that way.

16:22Rachel Lim: Yet she didn't have that respect. Like she was lesser. Yeah. and sometimes didn't stand up for herself. And I would sometimes go, just stand up for yourself. So I, you know, that's when, that's what I mean by sometimes feeling guilty. It was having these thoughts like, I'm not going to be that, even though it was someone I respected so much and loved so much. That was probably my biggest resentment to myself. Like, why do I have these thoughts that I'm not going to be her, even though it was someone I respect and loved? So that was a lot of things I felt I had to work through. And do you think that also drove you to want to ensure that you can do both and you can be both?

16:58And the best, the one thing I tell you my parents got right in raising me was, I was never told from young or at any age that I couldn't be both. I was never told. I was never forced to wear a dress. They would sometimes put me in a dress and I'd wear shorts underneath. And then when it's about to run, I would literally like throw off the dress and start running with the boys. Like, so if you see me in a dress and one of my kids, I was always fully myself and I was allowed to be. I could wear a ball gown to like a casual thing, but fine, let her do it. There was a formal event and you could see me in Minnie Mouse tank top shirt and little shorts that were like running shorts.

17:32And everyone's in kind of suits at home. And I was like, no, I wanted to wear shorts today. And I was allowed to be. I was allowed to be the ambitious Chloe. I was allowed to be the calm Chloe with my dolls. I was allowed to be, I was running on the field with perfect bow ties.

17:48Rachel Lim: Amazing. I was allowed to be both. Take us back to when you first met Anthony Oh gosh A fun one How many years ago was this? Oh 13 years ago I don't know I was maybe just graduated after two years ago I moved back to Malaysia I was in a girl's lunch I was also in a place that right before this I was fighting a lot with my dad Again I think my mum passing It really kicks in significantly later Because it was my first year of college So I was so busy with university For the first three years and then we moved I moved to the college and she passed three months after that so I didn't you know it was such a new environment it didn't sink in but it was only after when you're thinking about life and when you actually have real questions in life and like and help I felt she wasn't there I remember walking through the airport and I saw the back of a woman's head and I thought it was her and I called it out three years after I spent the entire flight crying because so some things takes time and so when I found you know when during this this period that was very very actually tremendously difficult and no one understood why I was having such a difficult time because it was so many years after and so I was in relationships that really were probably not the best for me my dad you know even at 20 something was like threatening me and like I was still sneaking out I graduated and I was still sneaking out he's like I'm gonna cut your credit cards and I'm running.

19:14I mean, it was so ridiculous that I was doing teenager stuff at 20 plus and just felt so bad about it. I knew I was a little bit lost. I knew I was being a bit rebellious. But the one thing I knew was I needed to get back to my faith. I needed to get back to my values. So I didn't go to church after that for 10 years. My mom passed. I didn't step into a church but we used to go every Sunday um so the seed was there but I was so just I couldn't bring myself to do it but I knew I couldn't rely on myself anymore I needed something more I needed something beyond me so the one thing I did know in that moment was that okay the next guy I'm really with I just want someone of faith I'm weak but yet that's what I wanted because I needed I needed something more.

20:06And he was. He was of faith. He was also wanting to be stronger. We eventually had a little blind date set up. Her husband couldn't make it. So it was my very close friend who was exactly, because we're nine years apart. So she's exactly in the middle. We had so many mutual friends, but we always only knew the older and younger. He saw me as a baby. So because his uncle and my dad are childhood best friends and they started a bank together in the 90s as co-founders. Wow.

20:33Rachel Lim: This was his uncle. So he saw him as Bui. So already quite intertwined. Quite intertwined. But then again, because he's nine years older, I moved to Canada. He was studying in the States. So she introduced us. Oh my God, it was so terrible. It was so awkward. He actually scheduled an interview, like a proper grab interview before me, had dinner with me, and then another meeting right after me. Right. And it was back to back. I felt slotted in. And I got ready. I wore a pink dress. I still had that dress. I was like, no, like, I'm not a slotted girl. You know your worth I mean he was And I was in a place Like I actually Funnily enough He's very serious But I am actually A lot more jokey And I need that And he was quite serious And I don't know I didn't I just There was no vibe And And he was I don't know Like okay So really no No Great first impression I went out right after Yeah With like other people I was like Oh I needed to get this date off my mind.

21:32But then he, he had then asked my friend, can he get my number to set up? Can he get my number? And my friend says, oh, I don't know if I'm comfortable sharing my number if I haven't told her. So he said, can you then set up a group chat? And just the three of us. And he calls it good eats because he knew I was a foodie. So he pretended to be a foodie. So that was like the first big lie in our relationship that I usually bring up. So I'm going to take you to food around Malaysia, show you the best food. So finally, two weeks later, we were traveling, We couldn't quite make a date work. Two weeks later, we finally got a lunch.

22:04It turned out to be three hours of a lunch.

22:06Rachel Lim: It went like this. It says, look, I know I might seem really serious and I'm not what you would think that's been put out there. But I'm going to tell you everything right now about my life because for some reason, I feel this is real. I'm going to tell you every bad thing because everyone is going to say it to you anyway. All the goods, the bad. And then you tell me everything. And his obviously took two and a half hours. Mine took 30 minutes. I was like, outside girl, really loving parents, you know? Like, okay, big sister. Like, yeah, I rebelled sometimes. His was so terrible. He told me all the worst things.

22:43All his fears, all his mistakes.

22:45Rachel Lim: On the second date. On the second date. On our first date together, but our second time we actually met. But then he goes, and all these things. And then he goes, and I'm done. I said, what do you mean? He said, I'm done. I want to be better. I want to be so close and strong in my faith again because I know I can't handle this on my own. My father has disowned me. I have put everything I have into this business that I just, I needed to walk. And I don't know what this will look like. I have no time to date. I have no time for you know dating and trivial relationships I know it's a lot but you want to just try this with me this is the first real date we had and I was so intoxicated by the honesty and so it was the first relationship that started that was not because of love was not infatuation no there was no first look It was not.

23:56It came out from... Our relationship started from deep respect. Deep respect, humility of owning all our mistakes from the beginning. That's how it started. Love grew after that. The love actually grew after that. I'm much significantly more in love with him today than I was 12 years ago.

24:18Rachel Lim: Even from the get-go, it sounded like both of you are so intentional about not repeating old patterns. And taking this and building it differently from how it was for both of them. It was so unconventional in the most conventional way. I don't know how to say this. So for example, we decided that because of, you know, like I told you, my rebellion years, his dating history, we decided to meet each other's parents first before we would even officially date. So our third and fourth date was him meeting my dad and then me meeting his mom. And the logic is because? if our parents were to vehemently disagree and we couldn't get along, how would we be bringing two families together?

24:58If it was truly out of love. And my dad and his mom just loves us so much and has our best interests at heart. So that was the first. It was, again, with our faith and our values, he came from a very charismatic church and background. I came from a very conservative Methodist background. He says, if we couldn't find a church that we both feel strongly about and love, it wouldn't be the right one. So our first five dates after that were five different churches. No, maybe four different churches. And then on that fourth date, on a Sunday, the church that we are still with now, that we moved to Singapore almost with, the pastor was speaking.

25:35They asked who wants to rededicate their lives back to God. And they know that it's just not enough, that they are so broken, but they want to be healed. And two of us, without knowing, eyes closed, both raised our hands, like tears streaming down. And we never looked at each other once and then opened our eyes and saw that. and that moment was it. That was it. We did everything kind of backwards, but perfect. We did premarital course before he even proposed. He says, let's not even get engaged and bring everyone involved if we can't get through all the difficult questions. So we did a premarital course.

26:06We had to do it over Zoom because we were traveling all the time. So it was the first time the church ever did this. But it talked about finances. How much do I expect to spend? How much do you expect to pay? It talked about what if a child passed? It talked about, are you okay with in-laws living with you as they age? Really difficult question. So getting all out there. Oh man, we fought so much. When we were dating, we fought so much. And the worst kinds of fights you can imagine.

26:32Rachel Lim: You know, even in the toughest times of your dates, what kept you going? It was fighting over real things. We were never disrespectful to each other. We were upset over the situation and how to solve it together. It's almost like fighting forward. And we couldn't feel, we couldn't understand how to bring such that similar, but yet we were so different. We had such different upbringings. We had such a different vision of, you know, for him, it was all tough love. For me, it's all like, no, like the more you give them, the more they're able to love others. For him, it's like, no, the more you got to withhold it so that they can fight for it.

27:06Like we just had very different versions of upbringing, right? And it was just from different backgrounds. There's two people trying to make it together. But the one thing we didn't stop was being respectful to each other. We didn't disrespect each other no matter what.

27:16Rachel Lim: What do you think was the hardest to confront, whether individually or as a couple, during this season? I think just like fundamental differences in that season. We looked at, you know, he... I felt very much like I was the giver. He was building a startup from scratch. I was... He asked me to come along with him. So you can imagine, and I had no title. I was not even engaged. And you also have double degrees and everything. And I felt I was ambitious. I had my dad's companies waiting for me. I left everything. So I started working for my dad when I met him. And Anthony, two weeks after meeting him, said, will you quit and do all of this with me?

27:57We will travel everywhere together. We will spend every day together. Will you do this with me? Two weeks after I joined. So I quit. But yet I had no title. We were not even engaged. We were sleeping at my dad's place. We had to do separately. We had to open the doors. We were trying to make it work. but I was giving so much. You know, I remember he was so not used to having someone there and the one that really just, I think, snapped me off was walking into an office with him. Quite early on, I was already doing so much at that time to help him. He had no PA. So I did every, imagine you're building a startup.

28:37Rachel Lim: This was the earliest days of prep. Just getting all the messages done, doing it. I think he did but it was kind of shared and it was one of those like, you know, everyone did everything. But we walked into a meeting room. He forgot I was behind him and the door closed and slammed on me. Can you imagine as a woman in this court, you are just like humiliated and devastated. And I remember, I did remember looking at him. I said, I don't, I don't know. I don't know how this would work. I don't know how much longer I can do this. But we talked it out. We talked it out. And I think the one big thing is that the two things that really helped, both on my side and his side, I'll share on his side, is that the second he was sure, he gave me every credit, every possible chance.

29:26Until today, I would say he speaks almost too highly of me that sometimes I do have to tell him, like, can you not? Because I'm so embarrassed. I don't know what to say. So now our arguments are the complete opposite, by the way. I actually have to tell him in front of dinner, like, can you not? don't say anything so much. I feel very awkward when everyone looks at me.

29:45Rachel Lim: He says, no, but you did all of this. You know, I've really witnessed it and he is honestly so sincere about it. And that's the thing about it. And he's not saying just because. And you can really feel his sincerity when he says it. And I'm like, wow. So that's him. And words are really not my love language, but it is his. So if you think he speaks like that in public, do you know in private, he's even nicer. He's, and people are like, oh, social media is like not. I'm like, yeah, he's actually even nicer at home. He's even more patient with me at home. He's even softer with me at home. He thanks me every single night before we go to bed.

30:22Just to thank me for the day.

30:23Rachel Lim: So since the beginning when you said yes, you know, to doing it with him. I would say since becoming very serious. I think the argument part was very difficult. The second we got engaged, everything changed. The second we knew this was it, the second he said we will never, ever, ever use the D word. That's our one number one rule Never talk about divorce It's not in the equation You know, when we got married We made the agreement actually We would both be significantly worse off Separate than together We made it so difficult That we would not even want to think about What do you mean? So, like legally Okay, legally, I understand Everything is put together Like it's just so difficult for us It's so intertwined And I don't even know how messy that would be.

31:12And we did it intentionally. And so now, even in the hardest of times, it doesn't even come across. But also in 12 years, if you've never said that word, you're probably not going to. It's just, it cannot enter our realm of thought. So I would say that's his side. And then I would say my side in how that we overcame that. one thing I'm so grateful for is talking about that childhood and then bringing it back to have that kind of security I've never been insecure about a title and I think that is so rare and I hope more people have that ability because when you're not insecure about a title gosh, the opportunities you have to do so much more people say you can't have it all you can't have the kids But I do.

31:59It's just not the title. So I never know what to put on these forms. You know, we fly so much. And I'm always like, what do I put? I mean, sometimes I put housewife and I joke about it. But I'm like the furthest from all these titles I could think of. I'm not a CEO, not an entrepreneur. You know, I definitely don't call myself a housewife, but I'm also that. I'm the furthest from. I literally, it's like the hardest question to ask me is what's your title? The hardest question to also ask me, which is something you've asked is who is Chloe? It is the hardest question for me. But yet it is not a question that upsets me, that I reject or that I don't want to answer.

32:42I just, I'm so, I have no insecurities. If someone were to call me a housewife, I would be okay with it. If someone were to call me, you know, I'm okay with it. And you think it's because of the way you were brought up? Maybe because I was brought up, but also the tremendous amount of joy I have in my life right now. When someone told me, I asked that 14-year-old Chloe who was so worried when she wanted kids, when she also wanted to run businesses and learn and never knew how she was going to do it. But now looking back, I get to do it. I get to go to every conference, every meeting, learn, push myself, run a foundation.

33:23Now every year, learning something new and have the five kids. And it's not, I don't do it perfectly. Like I really don't. Oftentimes I'm struggling in terms of the actual time. But do I love waking up every day? I love waking up every day.

33:38Rachel Lim: Wow. So I think the security from my childhood, but also the security I have at home. I know my kids need me and love me. and my husband just, I mean, he would be the first to tell you that, you know, he just cannot. And almost to the extreme. So sometimes you have to go like, no, no, you really can. And we shouldn't be so, you know, like, but that's what I mean. I think providing women or your spouse or when there's tremendous security, the amount you can do because you're not held up on some title. It's amazing. It's amazing. And maybe, you know, I'm so interested also, So could you run us through like what a day in your life or a week in your life?

34:18Rachel Lim: Oh my gosh. Some weeks it's flying literally five countries. In a week? In a week. We've done New York red-eye, one day trip to New York multiple times. Fly there on a red-eye, do one full day of meetings, have no hotel. We go pay for a gym pass so we can at least do a quick workout in the morning, but also be able to shower. And then come back at night. Still very common until today. so a lot of meetings I would say like the biggest thing when you talk about running through in the day I Anthony actually wakes up earlier than me so he's more of the morning person I would stay up a little bit more there's always some sort of workout of being active I always want to make it so that I kiss my kids good morning in the morning but I'm also able to let go I don't need to send my kids to school every day I spend then I usually do a lot of emails and work on grab stuff so you know my emails if you open my laptop right now there's five emails tabs, five different email accounts.

35:12And I just thought about it the other day. I'm like, huh, five email accounts that I go through every single morning. It's my grab email, my personal email, which also has all the foundation work. My son's email, because he's the only one that has an email, the 10 who's away. So I want to track everything that's always been sent to him. Anthony's grab email and then Anthony's personal email.

35:33Rachel Lim: Oh my goodness, Chloe. That's a lot. One email and I'm Or do you feel suffocated sometimes? So it is probably, I go through probably 100 emails a day. And all of that? Yeah. You take care of all of that? Yeah. I mean, he answers every work, proper work email. I do a lot of the personal email because there's also our family offices, there's our finances. And you prioritize things for him. There's a lot of that. There's a lot of spam I need to clear out. Then there's a lot of, you know, basic emails that I could send to the right team and party so that nothing is missed out. But it's also to make sure that nothing urgent is missed out when he has 12 meetings a day and, you know, 100 emails that come to him every day.

36:07So that's what I do. And then it changes. Then I had this right before. This was the business times. So no two days are the same.

36:17Rachel Lim: And it really sounds like both of you are so deeply dependent on each other in the best way possible. Yes, in the best way. Someone called us codependent one day. But I think it's in quite a healthy way. What is your definition of a healthy dependence? Again, I think above all else, like respect is one really respect for what each other does and that not one single thing even if the world sees it as more important it's not more important if it's something you treasure and can't live without so in the world Anthony's role would be significantly more important because there's very few of him but we treasure our kids and family life and so he sees it as so critical and then the other thing is I would say the big part is what Anthony always says too is that we've, at his level, when he wakes up in the morning and he checks his phone, first, the first thing he does is actually turn on his Bible app so that he doesn't get distracted.

37:15But by the time messages get to him, they are the worst.

37:19Rachel Lim: Yeah. They are all fires by the time he gets to him at his level right now. So imagine you are fighting a war basically every day. Honestly, every day you're fighting a war, some sort of war, and you think it will end. I hire a COO and I hire a president. This would be solved. No. This competitor comes in. No, it becomes this issue. It becomes... Something will happen. Something will happen. At his level, it's all a war. He's fighting every day. And for him, I guess why he appreciates it so much and why I do too is that

37:52you can fight a war outside because there's tremendous peace at home. At home, it's pure peace, pure security, and only respect. You can just, you can breathe and you have the time and space to fight these wars together. So I'd say that's the most important actually. The wars are all outside, guys. The wars are not inside your home.

38:14Rachel Lim: What do you think this marriage has required you to surrender and what has it also given you in return? You really need to surrender so much more control. I'm not good at it, but you really need to learn how to surrender control, how to let go a little bit more, how to delegate a little bit more, how to ask for help when you need help. I would say probably the only thing that is very different from the outside and inside is that we had to hold on to each other so much because it is a very lonely journey. You know, Chloe, I think one of the things that I really come to respect and am in awe is the philosophy that you and Anthony have is that both of you are always together and prioritize each other.

38:55Would you say that both of you come before the kids?

39:00Rachel Lim: Yes. And that was our golden rule before we started. that the marriage comes before the kids. Your marriage, the person you choose to have kids with comes before the kids because they literally came before your kid. Like that's who you chose. And that is the father or the wife of your children. And the biggest relationship and all our kids' relationships are so formed because of this one major relationship that they have at home, which is you two. So I feel like that was one thing have to say if we got right, we got right. So our kids in most meals, unless really, really urgent, our kids don't even sit in between us at dinners.

39:43Rachel Lim: Like it's me and him, kids around. You told me even in the plane ride. In the plane ride, we sit together because we like to share food and then the kids are on the other side or the kids sit together themselves. The older ones always sit together themselves and you know what? I asked them the other day, they prefer it now. We verbalize everything to our kids. We don't just say, oh no, I take care of Papa more than the five of you. I said, because I love you so much, I want to make sure that you always have your papa and mama together. I want to make sure you guys always know love and see what love is.

40:11And I have to travel with him, even if that means being apart from you guys a lot, is to make sure that every time we come home together and that you guys don't hear a scream. They have never ever heard a scream or shout at each other, ever, or fight. And I said, have you ever heard us? And all of them will tell you no. Mommies sometimes get upset. They would literally say this. Mommies sometimes get upset if Papa give us too much candy. And that's, to them, that is like the only time I've been upset. And, you know, I feel, how, can you believe my kids call each other darling? Brothers calling each other darling.

40:50Rachel Lim: They're modeling after daddy and mommy. That's the only relationship they've seen and love and know. So why are you so convicted that you will protect your marriage almost at all costs? Because my mum passed so young, when I was so young, and I would do anything to be able to have that back. And I know that even for my siblings, I love my younger siblings so much, I wish they had more years. No matter how loving our father is and how present, it is so tough. The abandonment, the hurt, not being there on certain milestones, it's okay for parents to be two working parents, to not come home some dinners.

41:31It doesn't have to be all or nothing. But being together as a family unit and knowing love and being raised in that. Again, there are situations that you can't put this on every situation. I think if there's a hurtful situation, if there's things you just, you have to do what's safe and what's right for your children and for you. So like 100%. But I think that is something through time that we make that sacrifice because you do sometimes wish,

41:59Rachel Lim: I want to be home more. Was this something that both of you had to talk through early on and agree on? I think when you serve and you put someone else so much before you, you'll be so surprised that it goes both ways. It's very hard. You don't really need to think of yourself as much if you feel very loved and secured and taken care of. You can think of others too. What are some of the rituals that both of you have? You know, just the other day, he was rushing and I felt so bad for him. He was so late for a meeting and we've had three hours of sleep. This was the day we did six countries in a week.

42:33And I woke up and he let me sleep in. He says, just come later, come to the office. I said, okay, I really can't. He says, I'll wake up. He got up so quietly to make sure. But when I got up to the restroom, when I was finally ready, the toothpaste was on my toothbrush.

42:48Rachel Lim: It's not a grand gesture. It's that he's used to putting toothpaste on my toothbrush and he still does it in the most difficult of days. It's that. It's like the highest form of love is knowing that you're considered, that someone is thinking of you. He has never undermined me in front of the kids. He doesn't under, there's no good cop and bad cop. You ask the kids, like, they will tell you there is no good cop and bad cop. They can't play another. So they're so consistent and the kids are so disciplined and consistent in a very assured way because there's only one clear message. If mommy says one thing, for sure daddy says the same.

43:20If daddy says one thing, for sure mummies is the same. So there's no uncertainty in what our values are, in what's right on and in what's wrong. But again, this stemmed from years, years of us working through it, years of wars on the outside. And the harder it was, and people don't see how hard we do have to work, how much we did give up. We have no energy to have a war on the inside. And so when you give so much, when you support each other so much, and when you're so secure in that, but the things you can do on the outside together is so exponential.

43:57Rachel Lim: Wow. And that is like a non-negotiable for you. It's a non-negotiable. It's a non-negotiable. You know, Chloe, also I think, you know, what is most interesting to me now is also on top of everything that you have your hands full, you also started the Ace Foundation. Tell us more about that. So again, we're talking back to the stuff that we had a disagreement about it was his push and i was like you know most people kind of want more what more i was like babe i don't want a title i can just run this like very quietly and we can just donate very quietly but it's no like we have to it we are blessed with so much babe we have to pull more people in to give at this point we've learned so much about different charities you know i would say foundations they're so much stronger in the west they can give even throughout their lives not just kind of towards the end and have more legacies and family businesses like we do in Asia.

44:50So we had all that exposure and we knew we were blessed with this. And it was just a much deeper calling to run this. So initially, I actually said, we'll just have to do this quietly because I don't know what I'm doing. I want to learn. I want to hear what's on the ground. I don't want to create something by the sake of creating something. I want to actually find the gaps. So that's what we did for a while. and then that just we really kept it as something for the family our weekends were then spent volunteering together finding the right causes

45:19Rachel Lim: you mean on top of everything you make time for it yeah with the kids with the kids and that was something Anthony has always pushed for and I reserve and the one the specific meetings he always tries to bring our kids is especially when we're on the ground the harder the meetings the ones where they scold him you know whether it's driver partners or merchant partners where they want to give feedback like that's where he brings the kids and shows the kids and shows me that we take feedback all the time. We're so imperfect. We have to keep iterating. And that's what I carried on with our foundation.

45:49I go in there. I don't, I'm the funder. Do this, do that. I don't. I said, how can I help? How can I serve? And through that, we fell in love with the different causes. And more importantly, we fell in love with the teams behind the causes. So again, a big learning lesson through the foundation was not so focused on the cause and, oh, I feel like I need to solve healthcare because of this and that, which we really wanted to support too. But it was when you spend time with the team on the ground and you know they have the hearts in their right place and they're so motivated, you know that's the one you want to amplify because that's the one that's going to be able to really, really meet the needs of others.

46:25We are just stewards in this world. Everything we're blessed with is to steward well. You are not owners of it.

46:31Rachel Lim: And that is so beautiful, Chloe, because I also want to ask, what do you think you would want your kids to understand And from your and Anthony's example about privilege, responsibility and giving back. I think first, don't shy away from it. Own it. Own it. Because you're not, that you did not have a tougher childhood. You have to own it. But when you own it, understand that you were so blessed and so privileged, you then have a greater responsibility. You have to own what you've been blessed with and be so grateful for every aspect of your life. but then okay now what darling what are you and what are your interests and the only thing we said do what you want be one of the best at it work hard at it but it must be something to benefit society that is our only ask of our kids it has to benefit society in some way shape or form it has to be something that you would let your kids do so that's our bar for Anthony and I We will only start something that we will let our kids do or use.

47:35Rachel Lim: And I think one of the areas that Ace Foundation is also more visible in is around the area of bullying. Could you tell us more about that and why is that so personal to you? You know, I think it's so much lesser about bullying but about values and character. Like I talked a little bit about my childhood and boarding school life. You know, especially the shyer years, the first one, two years where I was a bystander. So it doesn't have to be so loud. You know, of course, in boarding schools, there will be bullying. But I was not bullied and I was not bullied. But I was a bystander. And the concept of just not having the courage to stand up for someone that was hurting when you really, really, really should have.

48:18So that was kind of the initial parts of it. But then also later on, seeing Anthony, seeing us go through things. How many second chances were we given? How many labels were put on us? oh you're the big guy you're the bully oh you're the victim how many siblings or friendship friends do we know that struggle because they were always labeled but it's a spectrum at some point a child or youth can be a bully can be a victim can be a bystander how do we remove a lot more of these labels give kids and youth a lot more of this resiliency in how to mend relationships you know the foundation very much evolves and it doesn't matter to me whether I have a title or not.

48:59Rachel Lim: I just want to figure out what we can do next and iterate and grow along the way for the foundation to do the best work it can. You know, we've been blessed with a really good network. So how do we pull more people in to give at very different scales at whatever capacity? No, you don't need to own a foundation. No, you don't. But part of the joy is the giving. Right. And how do we get everyone to help experience that a little bit more? You know, I must tell you, Chloe, you truly came alive when you're talking about this foundation. It's something that you're so passionate about. Yeah, and I've grown into it.

49:31And I feel like it's so hard because I was so scared to make a mistake. I was so scared to be put on a pedestal. You know, I rejected it so much with Anthony because I said, you know, it's going to be a double-edged sword. How can I wear a nice shirt and run a foundation and not be ridiculed? That was so much out of fear until I just let it all go. And I'm just, it's all us. Every part of it is different sides of us. And we just, we're embracing every season. So this whole title thing, even like what are we so focused on, it will evolve when the needs of the community and society evolves.

50:05Rachel Lim: I'm really curious to know, what does entrepreneurship mean to you? You know, I think this is so interesting and obviously a question that we've been asked so much, particularly Anthony. And you can hear many different renditions of you got to work hard, etc., etc., and a tech. But I think what people don't talk about enough is being an entrepreneur at home. And I think the most important entrepreneurship is the one you set at home, the one you lead and you start. Your family does not need to look like someone else's. But what does it take? How do you recreate and redefine what family means for it to be successful?

50:42Drive so hard, work so hard seven days a week. Also for your home life, how do you, you know, so for example, like I said, we have very opposite what people would assume as, the defined roles. Rules. Our conventional, our roles look so conventional on the outside. But at home, our roles are so unconventional. Tell us, what does it look like? So first of all, Anthony calls me MacGyver. I literally am the one that like you have seen me under just saying, I'm fixing the plugs. He's a tech guy, but I fix the Wi-Fi. You know, whether it's even driving. So he literally has a car startup and he raced.

51:20But day-to-day driving, he's terrible. because he has so many things in his head. So I'm always the one driving. And I love it. So people don't also know, but like I used to race. I had a motorbike license. So we have a lot of that similarities. But when we travel and we rent cars, I'm the one driving. I'm driving. Even overseas. Yes, I'm driving in Canada and Europe. And I keep the cards, the credit cards because he doesn't like to hold anything and because I manage a lot of our finances. So people always give him the bill. He's like, no, no, no. my boss gets it but it's obviously all in sync so we just play you know that's entrepreneurship it's that it can and you gotta own it i mean the amount of times he was also ridiculed by other men um and very very very senior successful men not in our country in other countries oh wow she wears the pants huh oh wow you're so whooped in this day and age we're still talking to mend this way.

52:17And I'm not going to lie, initially he was also taken a little bit of back. He said, oh, maybe it didn't look so good. But through time, our marriage is the one that's flourishing. And now he's so confident, he takes this thing out. So when someone says that, literally just a few months ago, someone said this to him, yeah, she does. I can tell you the silence it creates. and from then on also the respect that's been given to him and me. So often in these conferences, I'm often the only woman there because he keeps advocating for it. You don't get him if you don't get me. You don't get me if you don't get him.

52:55Rachel Lim: You know, on the roles and what he was even, you know, sort of ridiculed for, why do you think both of you, even for yourself, why are you so secure and okay with that? Because what's the alternative? do I want that marriage? That guy who's ridiculing guys for letting their wives be strong? Because I can assure you that marriage is not in a good space. What is the alternative if you don't stand up for each other? If you let society dictate how you are going to lead your life? If I can't bring kids to meetings? If he, you know, in all my big foundation events where I've had to speak, I've actually been very nervous.

53:35And Anthony, you can imagine, has a packed day and we've already made it clear. I run it. I will do it. There's no capacity. he supports. In every single one, he's found a way to move his meetings last minute or quietly so that he could quietly come in the back and watch. He's actually been there for every time I've been on stage. And people don't know.

53:55Rachel Lim: Wow. It is just respecting what each other do and redefining what it looks like. You know, for so long, I was so upset that we couldn't have family dinner properly because with work hours, with time, everyone needs family. Every book tells you eating dinner with your kids is so important. But my kids are all different ages. They eat either in one hour or they eat in five minutes. Like there is no middle. You know what I mean? They have one chicken nugget and they're full or they decide to take 45 minutes to eat one bowl of rice. And then Anthony's in the calls and I'm trying to get him back. But no.

54:32So we stop putting pressure on dinners. We often don't have many dinners together. We're sometimes there, sometimes not. Kids can eat in class. We remove, we redefine. But what is important? Bedtime. So he comes back now for bedtime because the kids sleep really early at 7.30 and then he starts work again at 10, but we then pray together. We have like a full 30 minutes of wind down and that's when they really tell us everything that's happening. We're in each other's beds until everyone falls asleep. So entrepreneurship, gosh, just why aren't we thinking so much more about it in that we can totally redefine and create what family life can look like.

55:06Like people are so like crazy when they're like, how can you just bring one kid? What about your other kids? But I have five kids, yet I have such a unique special one-on-one time with each because I'm always with one kid often. So they have me fully. I know them fully. I know their taste fully. They get to shine in that moment. Then they come back and they're so happy with their siblings. It is okay. And you can't let all this noise like, oh, I could never do that. I could never leave my other kid behind and only take one kid.

55:37Rachel Lim: It's okay. And that works for that family. But my point is, don't take certain norms also just as is. Question it. Do what is right for your family to flourish. Be an entrepreneur in your home first because then you can be an entrepreneur outside. You can fight any wars outside. You can go through this battle together as like a whole unit. But I think that's so important. That's so important. You know when the going gets tough When the voices in your head get too loud How do you deal with that? I try not to dwell I would say though When all these voices are in my head Talking about it really helps So the two of us do share every night What our worries are And then we pray together So no matter what, every day We actually pray out loud together We pray out loud with the kids together One by one So that's five prayers And then Anthony and I It's like six prayers every single night.

56:31That is out loud. And that makes such a big difference. Saying something out loud, saying out your fears and praying it with someone, you realize that, yes, the problems may seem very big at the time. But when you hear your kids' prayers and what they're worried about, it gives you perspective because then when you look at each other, you go, hmm, in 10 years now, down the road, we're probably going to be thinking the same about the prayers we are praying right now. Yes. You know, kids' school, kids' this, our kids' not eating. You know, they're going to eat. but it is so big to us now and so when you pray out loud and when you have that space together as a family it just gives you perspective because just like what you think your child is going through is probably what you are going through yourself you know Chloe

57:16Rachel Lim: out of like every amazing role that you play and all the hats that you wear coming back to you as a person how would you say who Chloe is? I don't know. I'm still figuring that out every day. But I like her. I actually, I've really liked, I don't know if I could say that in the past, but I've now really liked her. She keeps growing and she keeps changing. And right now, what is really nice is that I am really not interested in defining something for myself. I am growing. The foundation is growing. I know I'm happy. I know we're doing such amazing work, but I know that there's still so much more I need to learn.

58:02And I'm really excited about it.

58:04Rachel Lim: And what do you think, Chloe, is something that matters infinitely less today? Being right. There's so many things that are not absolutes. Life is really not black and white. People change, they grow. People are not bad forever. someone may really hurt you and trust me we've been hurt so many times through this journey we've been betrayed so many times through this journey but if you really really really see things from their side and you really put away all ego how much mending there could be and I tell you the one thing I've really learned in this marriage in this running the business the foundation and our marriage and then being a mother is taking feedback it's just the ability to take feedback to iterate and know you don't have all the answers and apologize i don't know why this whole like you know what really saying sorry is just not bad it's really okay even if you're not 100 % wrong but if you're 1 % wrong you can still say sorry if you're 0.5 % wrong you can still even if that person is 99 % wrong you can still say sorry because that is the first step in the other person coming forward as well.

59:22You know, I go through so many, we're like customer service, customer support, right? For all our friends and a lot of people who have any access to us. I mean, there's not one meal that goes by, right? When we meet someone and it's like, we just, we say sorry. And yeah, sometimes we can't fix it. Sometimes it's really their fault. Sometimes it was like literally another app they used and they thought it was our app. And so sometimes you just have to laugh at it. But if you had that lens for everyone who tried to give you feedback. How much do you lose of being able to better yourself? Yes. So I think this whole journey of, because I see so many emails now, it's totally changed my life.

59:56So even when I'm upset in a restaurant with five kids and they are just like, it's like just the worst service. We go the opposite. We tip them. We say, thank you so much. We know we have five kids. We know this is an important meeting. Thank you so much.

1:00:14Rachel Lim: like you know for first why what do you think that does because maybe that person's just having a really really really bad day and the more you love on someone that really needs it i tell you how many times we have managed to change a bad situation around or service just by being the one that's okay i want to say i'm sorry first i'm going to say thank you first even if that person really doesn't deserve a thanks and that so it has changed even i don't know sometimes i'm complaining to my kid's uniform literally just did not arrive and everything was mixed up and my email was i'm so because i know on the receiving end of it it's so yes you're going to help but it's so much harder to help someone who comes out swearing in all capitals right you're going to be the person who is very clear very concise very polite and factual and so when i send emails that's like i don't know if this was what you intended but this is this has actually happened is there any way we can rectify this together.

1:01:10I can tell you like a lot of my issues are often solved so quickly

1:01:15Rachel Lim: because people want to help. Yeah, and you give them the benefit of the doubt. You give them the benefit of the doubt. So whether it's a restaurant, whether it's a flight, whether it's, you know, someone very difficult, we actually just, we flip it. And I tell you how many relationships have changed. First impressions are absolutely the worst thing and completely unreliable. So Chloe, who are you in this season of your journey? You know, I think I'm less interested now in defining myself by a title. I'm more interested in whether I'm becoming the kind of person I want my children to learn from and whether I'm using what I've been given in a way that is meaningful to others.

1:01:51Rachel Lim: If you could have a billboard down the streets of New York, Tokyo, anywhere, everywhere in a row, what would your billboard say and why? I mean, I only can think of Bible verses because I just feel those are the only there's just for us again, very few truths but probably that's our one main truth you know, there's so many things so, you know, in some of our jackets in our blazes it's actually we actually have it engraved Bible verses Bible verses so for example, Micah 6, 8 you know, love humbly walk humbly with God you know servitude servitude is just again for Anthony and I like what we talked about serving people serving others serving is just so not a dirty word I think it's the highest form of beauty and respect and love is to serve

1:02:44you know I also think but then there's also the very strong side of us where you are called to do excellent work you cannot sit on your laurels when you are blessed with enough it is actually a sin not to do anything about it then that's also where like the drive of us come from and we have like

1:02:59Rachel Lim: yes we have like a very soft and very meaningful side, but deep within us, there's deep conviction and drive. And we, you know, working 14 hour days because we just both strongly believe when you're blessed with certain things and when you're blessed with more, the more you got to do, the more you got to give, the more you got to love, the more you got to serve. So I would say it would be those, probably along those lines. You know, Chloe, it's been so, so amazing sitting opposite you, hearing your truth, your passions, your convictions, your story, your experiences. And I want to ask, you know, if your mom were here and watching you, seeing everything that you've grown into, what do you think she'll say to you?

1:03:47She would ask me to have a margarita. No, I kid you not. We are so, you know, she would ask me to just hug me. and we would finally have a drink together. We would have a margarita. She likes a lime margarita. I remember that I was so stressed out. You know, the point of feeling loved and secured is when your child is having a difficult time. It's not when in Disneyland. It's not when they actually feel loved.

1:04:17Rachel Lim: They're feeling loved by all the characters around. They don't need like... That's not when you think of love as a childhood. That's not what you're going to think of. is going to Disneyland or providing the best trips in the world. And that's not what they're going to think love is. Love for me was, I was so stressed out in an exam I was going to sit for when I was in high school, a year before my mom passed. I was trying to get into all these universities. I was already so tired and so overworked and I was pushing myself and most parents would work harder, make sure, come on, it's only one last exam.

1:04:46She says, can you just come sit with mommy? Let's have a beer. I was 16.

1:04:51Rachel Lim: But she's just, that is when you feel love. So for me, I would say that when she sees how much I'm doing, she would not be saying good job. She would not be saying, you know, you should do this. She would just say, come, have a drink together. Wow, I love that. Yeah. Thank you for sharing so much of yourself with us. And I also want to thank you, Chloe, for stepping fully into and courageously into new seasons of your life. because we all as a society, as friends, as people around, as a community, also get to benefit from all that you are and all that you're doing alongside Anthony. So thank you for holding firm to your own convictions and your own passions and just being such a great shining example and even redefining what marriage is or what it can be and what being a woman today is refusing to be confined to any titles or any boxes.

1:05:51Rachel Lim: You're literally a category of your own. And we're so grateful for that. So thank you so much. I really, really appreciate that. Thank you.

1:06:12Thank you.