Ask Muriel Anything: Staying Motivated, The Pros and Cons of People Management, and Handling Ambitious Employees

0:03I'm Muriel Wilkins and this is Ask Muriel Anything from Coaching Real Leaders. In these episodes, my producer, Mary Du, also known as Mary the Fabulous, and sometimes some special guests will help me field questions that have come in from the Coaching Real Leaders community, listeners like you, or that come up in my coaching client work. So let's get started with a few questions that have come in recently. All right, Muriel. But before we do that, I actually have a question about your career. Oh, OK. I'm really curious. We've talked about this a little bit off mic before, but you worked in formal corporate world for a while and then you have been on your own for a long time.

0:47I'm less interested about how you made that jump, but over time, how you've known that's the right fit for you versus climbing a corporate ladder in some sort of structured way. Yeah. Interesting. I don't think that the climbing the ladder or wanting to achieve certain things completely went away. Right. It's just the ladder looked a little different. Right. I went from being a solo practitioner as a coach to building it into a firm. So growing something into a business. But I think your question is, you know, why did I stick to that versus ever go back to the path that I was on, which was a bit more of a traditional corporate path?

1:35And for me, at the end of the day, this particular path, every time I checked for the last 22 years, and I do check every now and then, felt more aligned with how I want to experience this existence that we're in, right? And so what does that mean for me? I always think about it in terms of the trade-offs I'm making because we're always making trade-offs. whenever we're making choices. There are certain things that I quote unquote gave up when I left the corporate route I was on. And so it was more around are the things that I gained, the trade-off that I made, is it worth it? Is it aligned again with what I want for me or how I want to serve, the impact that I want to make?

2:25A lot of different variables. And the answer has been yes. Has that trade-off looked different over time? Yeah, it has. It has. The thing that has been very clear is I periodically do ask myself the question of is what I'm doing and how I'm doing it, meaning coaching in more of my own business, on my own, as you put it, is that the most aligned expression of the work that I want to be doing or the impact that I want to have or how I want to, again, experience my time here? Is it more aligned with that than not? And when I look at all of my options, this feels like the option that's most aligned.

3:13And that's why I stick with it. And I'm very clear, Mary, like that's why I say right now, because that doesn't mean it's forever. I will say there was a moment earlier on with my business where my security blanket was, well, I can always go back to X. And I remember waking up in the middle of the night, about six or seven years in, and I was like, I don't know if I can actually ever go back to X, right? Like, would X even hire me? I don't even know if, and by X, I don't mean the company. I mean, the thing that I was doing, you know, do I even have those skills anymore? Would I be capable of doing it?

3:49But what I've come to learn is, you know, I've developed other skills over time. And so if I had to or if I wanted to, there's always opportunity to recreate myself or move into a different direction. But for now and for 22 years, I've sort of stuck by it and it's worked well for me. So far, so good. Yeah, I was curious. I think we've talked on the show before about people who are sort of thinking about making that leap. And then it's just interesting. I think a lot of people are sort of worried that they're going to regret it or this is a big risk. Am I willing to take it? So I thought it'd be interesting to get some perspective on someone who took the risk.

4:23Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because I think, you know, I was talking to somebody else who took a similar quote unquote risk. Right. And it's all how you define risk. Right. For some people, the risk is taking the leap. For some people, the risk is not taking the leap. You know, the risk is the staying. I think one of the things for better or for worse that has helped me in when I have sort of taken these quote unquote risks, if you say, whether it's even this podcast, you know, and starting it is I was joking. I'm like, I wonder if there's like a missing gene in me that sometimes makes me not think so much about the obstacles that I'm going to run into that then allows me to take that step.

5:08Because maybe if I actually had thought about all the obstacles, I may not have done it. You know, and I think sometimes that's what gets in the way. And this is where the notion of self-efficacy comes up a lot. self-efficacy is a different way of talking about confidence than what I think confidence really is. My confidence doesn't come from knowing that it's actually going to work out. My confidence comes from knowing that no matter what happens, I'll be able to get through it. Right. So even at every point of the business, even 22 years in, my confidence is in that, even if, you know, I got to a year where I got no business and financially it just wasn't, doing well or whatnot, that I'd be able to figure something out.

5:57I may not like it and I would be able to work through it. And that I think is important to have when you are trying to go and take a leap of any way. I think they call that grit. All right. Enough questions from me. We'll hear some from the audience. Let's start with this one. I have been facing a challenging time in my career. I made it through the pandemic, was even excited by some of the challenges around AI adoption. So obviously there's been a lot in the last few years. I've gotten promoted and some would say I'm actually at the peak of my career, but for the last maybe six months or so, I have just really started to fade in terms of motivation.

6:37I don't even really know what's going on, but how do I get my mojo back, Muriel? How do I get my mojo back? I think Marshall Goldsmith had a book by that title. So maybe number one, we should go look at, read the book, read the book, whoever asked this question. Part of it is defining what motivation actually is and how we relate to motivation. You know, so if this individual was sitting in front of me, I would be asking them that, which is, well, what does it even mean for you to be motivated? What is motivation? and what I find that when we really sort of scratch the surface off of it is that when we look at what motivation is to me it's made up of two words motive and action and so I always think about motivation being what is your motive for action what is your motive for what it is that you're doing whatever it is that you're doing so with this individual if they're finding that hey I'm at the peak of my career and yet I'm not really feeling it.

7:44I'm lacking motivation. What that clues me into is maybe, maybe, and I'd want to explore it with them is have they lost or maybe never even identified what the motive is behind what it is that they're doing in their career as a leader, the motive behind being at the peak of their career, right? Right. And what is interesting to me, Mary, is that a lot of times, by the way, this is not an outlier. Like a lot of people face this, particularly when they have achieved what they thought was going to be the success. I forget the name for it now. I actually wrote about it in a book and I'm forgetting what it's called.

8:28But it's, you know, it's what a lot of athletes face. Right. They win the Olympic gold medal and then they're like. Michael Phelps got really depressed when he was done. Michael Phelps, right? Very depressed. Like, what? I thought that was it and that's not it. What I love is that it is an opportunity for us to redefine what actually gives us motivation. And when I think about motive, it's the why. What is the why behind what you're doing? and a why has to do one thing. It has to matter to you. So it gets at the question even of, well, what truly matters to you? And what might've mattered to you 10 years ago may not be what matters to you now.

9:17And so when somebody says, I'm not feeling motivated anymore, it might be because what mattered to you before that drove you staying up late and working all those hours and climbing the corporate ladder, all those things may not be what matters to you now. And so what we need to double click on is what matters to you right now? And does it align with what it is that you're doing? Okay. And if it doesn't, one or two things can change. Either you change what you're doing or you find a different why. And I always say that your why, only one person needs to be comfortable with your why. And that's you.

10:01As long as you can go to sleep at night, right, to the extent you can sleep. And everyone who follows you on LinkedIn, right? Also, no? Okay. No. That's where we go wrong, right? We're waiting for other people to tell us what our why is. And no, like adulting is, you've got to figure out what your why is. You know, nobody's telling you. When you're a kid, your parents tell you what your why is. everybody tells you what your why is. But as an adult, you know, it's your turn to figure out what that is. If not, you're going to feel exactly the way that this person is feeling. So that to me is all about motivation.

10:34That said, I also think sometimes we tend to over-index on the need for motivation. Sometimes, yes, you need motivation, but you don't need motivation all the time. Mm-hmm. Discipline overrides motivation any given day. If you wait for motivation to pop up to do anything, good luck. You're not going to actually move to action many times when you actually need to, okay? And so there's recognizing when do I need motivation? and when I'm lacking motivation, then what is the discipline that I need to be able to move through the actions that I need to take to get to the end result that I want? But you better have an end result that you actually want.

11:24I mean, I go through this many, many times with my workouts. I mean, I do work out. I feel motivated, but there are many times I don't feel motivated. But what gets me through is the discipline because of the outcome that I know it will get me to. And so I do it because it is what's most aligned with the outcome rather than the thing itself. I was also sort of reading between the lines that this might be a little bit of burnout, but I guess that's another question for them to sort of think about for themselves. Yeah, I mean, it could be, right? It could be. But I often find that, you know, it's so interesting, like burnout, okay?

12:03Because how we define burnout even differs from person to person. And sometimes we get burned out because we don't have a why, you know? I can have two types of coaching clients in front of me, two different coaching clients, both of them working equally the same amount, having the same challenges, one feeling very burned out and the other feeling energized. And the difference between the two is the motive and the why. Now, there might be some other differences, but I find that that makes a big difference. So yes, one could be burned out, but sometimes what we need is to reignite, you know, what it is that gives us energy.

12:55And the real question is, can that come from the role that you're playing and the work that you're doing, or does that need to come from somewhere else, right? It's not to put all our eggs in our basket of the why, but I think that while there are many things that contribute to burnout, let's not necessarily default to it without examining what are some of the things that are in our control that can prohibit us from getting there. We'll be back with more after the break.

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16:23Get your free guide at NetSuite.com slash Muriel. NetSuite.com slash Muriel. NetSuite.com slash Muriel. Should we go on to the next question? All right. So this one comes from a scientist. Very exciting. He says, I've done well in my career so far, and I'm well respected at my organization. As a result, I'm offered opportunities for larger roles, but with that would also come a larger team. I have to be honest, the people management side of thing really just drains me. I have a small team now, and sometimes I even kind of fantasize about going back to being an individual contributor in the lab.

17:03But, you know, I'm concerned that will stunt my career advancement, so I'm not sure what to do. Thoughts? I mean, I just love the honesty here. Right. I think there are so many. I think more people feel this way than will admit it. I mean, right. Because they feel like it's blasphemy or it puts them at risk. You're supposed to want it. You're supposed to want it. You know, it's like, oh, my God, if I say that I don't like people management, that's going to exactly what this person is saying. It's going to stunt my career advancement. And look it. I'm a realist. Yeah, it could, depending on where it is that you work.

17:39And, you know, unfortunately, in many organizations, at least what my experience has been is that advancing basically means taking on more people under you and having a big people management type of responsibility as your scope increases. So one of the first things that I would say for this individual is they might need to sit and really think through what is it about people management that they're not enjoying, right? Is it that they truly don't enjoy it? Is it the learning of it? Is it that it is keeping them from doing something that they actually get energized from, what we talked about before, right?

18:21It is keeping them from spending time in the lab and doing all the science-y things that they were doing. Is there a scenario where if they got that, then it would make the people management side of things more palatable? Like what is it that is contributing to the blanket statement of I don't enjoy people management? Because I just want to make sure that that's the case. Because if it is, then we might be solving for a different problem, right? We might be solving for how can you, even as you increase your scope in people management, how can you still spend time doing some of the things that you enjoy doing, which is the science part of it?

19:07It might be a skill piece. The reason I don't enjoy this is because I don't know how to do it, right? Or I don't feel competent in doing it. It's not something that I've learned. Okay, so can we solve for that? Can we increase the skill? So let's really unpack behind that statement. And if it boils down to, no, actually, no, actually, I really, really don't like it. I don't enjoy it. I do not want to do it. Then it goes back to this question around tradeoffs, right? What is it that you do want? and doing what you do want or following that path, what are the trade-offs that you would need to make?

19:45And looking at whether the organization that you're in or the context that you're in, does it allow you to advance in your career in the way that you've defined that without having people manage your responsibilities? If not, are there other places where you can do that? Or is there a redefinition for you around what it means to advance in your career? I.e., does career advancement need to be promotion? Or can career advancement be, I get to do, again, I don't know the nature of this person's job. I'm making generalities here. You know, can career advancement mean that, hey, I get to do more research, I get to write, I get to do these other aspects that expand my depth on the science piece without having to do the people management piece, right?

20:39So there's a redefinition of career advancement success that is more aligned with not having to take on increased responsibility from a people management standpoint. And then, like I said before, maybe there are other organizations where it does allow you to come up the ranks as an individual contributor? By the way, you're still going to have to deal with people. You might not have to manage them, but you're still going to have to deal with people. Does it allow you to do that? And finding a context that allows you to do that. So there's a lot of different ways that one can approach this question to explore before putting a stake in the ground and saying, I don't want to do this, right?

21:22If that's the direction that they're going in. I think people management can mean such different things, Right. I mean, I think my my father worked at the library, a public library for 47 years, and he was the second in command. And I used to say you never wanted to be the director. And he had been a director somewhere for about a year and he hated firing people. And he just decided this is not for me. I don't want to be mean. And he was very happy, you know, making other decisions, but not having to deal with that. I think people management for a lot of managers still, it's like a lot of filling out forms and having to do all the performance reviews and having to sort of, you know, reprimand people if they're not holding up.

22:00I think that's different than getting to a level of responsibility where you're like making interesting decisions and getting to, you know, there's sort of different ways you can think about moving up. So I think it's probably very organizational dependent. I have seen people at some places figure out a way to have a trajectory in their career where they don't have to be bogged down by that. But I think it's probably more rare. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, most times it's the traditional, you know, unfortunately, like we're not very creative on what it means to, again, quote unquote, advance in your career, which means then you have to be creative, right?

22:33What does it look like for me to advance in my career? In what ways can I make sure that I'm getting equal time or more time enjoying what I'm doing versus not? And that's where you've got to take a little bit of responsibility for that rather than expecting it to just be offered to you on a platter. OK, so I think that the ability to look at this eyes wide open and really see it for what it is and then potentially make some difficult kind of decisions on the tradeoffs that you're willing to make, as long as what you're gaining is outweighing what you think you might be losing, then, you know, that's OK.

23:18But you have to make those decisions. I think where many people get stuck is, no, no, no, but I want all these things to hold true, right? Like, I want all these things to be true. And so this is where there's a practice of really being in radical acceptance around the reality of the situation, the situation you're in. If what you're seeing is people here do not get promoted again, if that's the way you're defining advancement, unless they take on more and more people management responsibilities will then believe that, you know, you can go and try to explore whether there are other possibilities, have the conversations you might.

23:55You don't know. You're well respected. Maybe they'd be willing to carve out a role for you. So ask. Yeah. But if that doesn't seem to happen, then you have some decisions to make. I personally would like to make a CEO salary, but do what I was doing in my 20s. So I'm going to try to figure that one out. Well, you know, be the CEO of your own domain. That is a great idea. That is a great idea. All right. Last question for today. I have someone on my team who's in their early 30s. They're really wonderful. They're great at their job. They're really ambitious, which I love. But they have continually kind of expressed their desire for promotions and opportunities.

24:31And I appreciate that, that they're asking for those things. But I keep finding myself saying kind of be patient, you know, like this is not really how this organization works. You know, I want to be fair and I want to give people opportunities where they should have them. But how do I know here if they're kind of asking too much or maybe I just have some bias in the situation? Interesting. OK, so there's a couple of things here and this is such a real conundrum, right? Like I think sometimes we forget, not for everybody, maybe I'm projecting here how ambitious we were. You know, and, you know, depending on the individual who's asking this question, they might also come from a different set of expectations around how much one should advocate for oneself.

25:16It sounds like the emerging leader that they're dealing with, the team member that they have, is advocating for themselves quite a bit around career advancement. And that can create some discomfort if you come from either a culture or a generation or a previous context where that was not the norm and you did not do that. then you can sort of look at them and say, hey, what are you doing? Right. And not only what are you doing, recognizing that it may be triggering you in a way that's not quite necessary for the situation at hand. So the first place I would start with this individual, quite frankly, is be like, why is this bothering you?

25:59Right. Why is this bothering you? Is it saying something about you? is it potentially right because this is another reason why it might bother somebody is it because it creates a discomfort for you and not being able to give this person what they want right now so let's examine that how can we create more confidence and comfort for you in being able to say no you don't have to say yes to everything to be able to have the quote-unquote hard conversation So that is one. Why am I relating to this issue as an issue? Okay. The second thing is what is coming up for me is more around what has not been said between these two individuals.

26:49and because this person's the one asking the question the manager's asking the question i'm going to focus on them it sounds like they've told this person be patient and what they're hoping for is that the person isn't going to keep coming back asking okay so it's always fascinating to me when we say something somebody in the hopes that they're going to do something different but what we haven't said is the thing that we don't want them to do which is hey can you like pump the breaks on how often you're asking me about promotion or let's wait until X, Y, Z before we talk about this again. So this isn't to cut the team member off because you don't want to squash that career motivation that they have.

27:31But I would have a question around what is it that needs to be communicated to this individual that hasn't been communicated yet? And there's a couple of things that come to mind. One is, where does this individual believe they sit in terms of their development? Have you communicated where they are? Have you communicated what they have going for them? Have you communicated where there might still be some gaps, okay, in terms of being able to get to that next level that they want? Have you communicated to them what the opportunities are, or lack thereof. Because sometimes, you know, it's not about the person having skill gap.

28:15It's just that there's no opportunity. I mean, there are so many times where there are such veiled conversations in the workplace, where we try to make everybody believe that they have an opportunity for advancement, when in reality, you look at the numbers, and they're like, there's not opportunity for everybody to advance. And I understand why that happens. We don't want people to lose motivation. We don't want people to leave. But guess what? The biggest offer that we can give people is the autonomy to make their choices around their career. And so part of it is, hey, I might not be able to offer you the promotion, but let's think about what we can do to continue to position you for that next level, whether that happens here or elsewhere.

29:06And can you advance in different ways? Right back to again, how do we define advancement? Advancement doesn't always need to mean promotion. Can you advance by stretching horizontally, meaning you get certain opportunities to expand on your skills, et cetera? It doesn't sound like those conversations have happened. And if the individual is really, really, really, really, really adamant that what they want is to get promoted and they believe that it needs to happen now and this manager either doesn't think the person is ready or doesn't have the opportunity to do it then they need to be straightforward they need to practice kim scott's radical candor and be honest about that in a way that's still gracious to the individual in a way to acknowledge that they still value the individual It has nothing to do with not valuing the individual, but and here are the parameters.

30:07And then let that individual make the choices that they want to make. And in a really pragmatic way, if you believe that this individual as a result is a flight risk, meaning they may leave and they are not somebody you want to lose, and yet you know that they might leave because you cannot offer them what they want, then please please please work on your contingency plan as the manager yeah okay yeah don't don't just do the wishful thinking that they're not going to go anywhere yeah have the contingency plan so you know my question would be what have you not talked about with them and in what way can you be in partnership with them or in conversation with them so that they have the information to be able to make the decisions that they need to make for their career so that they can take a little bit more ownership around it while still acknowledging that you do value them.

31:02And in what other ways can you show them that you value them beyond the promotion? So I have been on the I have been the person in their early 30s. And, you know, for me, it was very much about I had been doing a similar job for many years and my brain my brain needed to stretch. It wasn't more money. It wasn't even really. I mean, it was a little bit of a title change, but it was more like staying interested. And I had this whole pitch with a list of things I would do for this job and how it would make my boss's job easier. I really tried to sell it as how I'm going to make your life easier. And at the end of the conversation, she was like, wow, like, I wish I had been this ambitious when I was your age.

31:46and that's all she kind of said and then I let it sit again and sit again and eventually it ended up being one of the things that contributed to me leaving because I said there wasn't really growth here and I think it's funny I'm I'm seeing a parallel there's some drama happening in the summer house world and reality tv which I follow and uh you know what didn't know I watch it too oh my god well it'll be a separate conversation but you know one of the guys recently said something that was like, I wasn't clear enough about not wanting to be in a relationship, but I thought by saying certain things that she would just figure it out.

32:21Right. And it's the same kind of thing. It's like that person never said there's not an option for this here because of the way this organization is structured and because people don't leave. They just kind of, you know, strung me along. Yeah. I mean, I think this is, again, the radical candor, right? And I think some people think that being radically candid mean you have to be mean and you have to be. No, it's say what you mean and mean what you say. But that requires some clarity and it requires courage for what might happen as a result of that. So in a way, a lot of times when we withhold or we veil it or we say the thing, but it's not really the thing.

33:02What we're trying to do is control what the person's going to do. Yeah, yeah. And we can be under the illusion that we control it, but we don't control it. And guess what? All it's going to lead to is the person keep coming back and asking, what am I getting that promotion? I want to get promoted. I want to get promoted because you haven't told them that they're not going to get promoted in X, Y, Z period. So there's a level of transparency that I think is important as a manager. And I think where most people get frustrated with career pathing, to be honest, is the lack of transparency. It's almost like Tell me what I need to do to get from point A to point B and what the normal trajectory is.

33:45Yep. And therefore, what they're really saying is if I know that, then I can make decisions. Right. Okay. Right. But a lot of times, many times, they have no idea. Yeah. So with lack of transparency, what do you do? You have those who just stay heads down and say, okay, I hope, I hope, I hope it's going to happen in some form or fashion. If I just do the work, the work will speak for itself. That's the thing. If you're getting good reviews and someone's telling you you're great at your job, then you think, of course, I'm going to get promoted. Or you have the others who are like, well, heck, I don't know what the path actually is.

34:17So I'm just going to keep raising my hand, raising my hand, raising my hand. And eventually I'm going to get called on. Well, neither one of those approaches is efficient, productive, motivating, et cetera, if we don't really know if that's what's going to get you there. Okay. And so what's interesting to me is there are certain industries and firms where the career path is very transparent. Like, I know it gets a lot, and I don't even know if this happens in these days, but, you know, there are some firms that have, or organizations have an up and out policy. And that might feel very kind of crass and da-da-da.

34:55And at the same time, it's transparent, right? You don't get stuck for 10 years thinking you'll make a partner. You know. Yeah. You know. You know that if this hasn't happened by year three, even if they don't tell you, you know. The writing is on the, you know, like, understand that this is what's going to happen. Or in most of those places, you are told. So I wish there was more. This is for all the managers out there. The more transparent you can be about the path, and it doesn't even have to be the long-term path. It can even just be the short term. Hey, here's what I know is going to happen between now and next year.

35:33The promotion is not going to happen in the next year. Here's where I think you can get more skills. Do I think there's a guarantee? I don't know. Or here's the transparency around positions that are out there. I'm not quite sure. Right. The only way that you'll get promoted is if that spot opens up. I either know, don't know, or can't tell you. Let me give you transparency into those things. So it's a bit tricky and uncomfortable. And the more you can share what you do know and what you can share, I think the better off you will be because then that person has information to be able to make a decision as to whether they want to keep asking or not.

36:12Thank you for not immediately going to the entitled millennial comment. I appreciate that. Listen, I mean, look, I think I think ambition just gets expressed in different ways. Yeah, absolutely. Wonderful. Well, that is it for today. Those are all my questions, Muriel. All right. Well, we'll have to talk offline about Summer House. How about that? I can't wait. Thanks, Mary. All right, y 'all. We will see you next time with another episode of Coaching Real Leaders. And when that one drops, it'll be another coaching session. If you want to unpack the episodes from Coaching Real Leaders, you can join me at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com, where I host live discussions about coaching sessions you hear on this podcast.

37:02And I also answer questions just like I do here, but you can ask them directly of me. And you can also follow me on LinkedIn at Muriel Mignon Wilkins on Instagram at Coach Muriel Wilkins. A reminder that if you love these coaching conversations, it would mean the world to me if you could head over to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts so that you can subscribe to the show. And please, please, please leave a five-star review. Thank you to my producer, Mary Du, sound editor, Nick Kringko, music composer, Brian Campbell, and my chief of staff, Emily Sofa. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys.

37:44I'm Uriel Wilkins until next time be well