Ask Muriel Anything: Getting Recognized at Work, Managing Team Conflict, and Responding to Tough Feedback

0:05Hi, everyone. I'm Muriel Wilkins, and this is Ask Muriel Anything from Coaching Real Leaders. In these episodes, my producer Mary and sometimes some of my special guests that come on will help me field questions that have come in from the Coaching Real Leaders community, listeners like you, or that come up in my client work. Hey, Mary, what's up? Hey, we're back. Long time no see. We are back. It's been a while. I've missed you. You have? Always. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I love that. All right. Enough of the niceties. Let's jump in. We're ready to jump in. Yeah. First question. I've been in my role for a long time and I know I'm good at what I do.

0:47Lately, I've started to feel like the things I'm good at aren't necessarily the things my organization values the most. So, you know, I'm really about developing talent, trying to support people building those relationships, it feels kind of like it's invisible compared to maybe what other people at that organization are really more vocal about in terms of their accomplishments, things that are really tangible, that have metrics. So I guess my question is, how do I make sure the value I bring is actually being recognized? Or alternatively, how do I tell if my value is no longer really what the organization's looking for?

1:23Mm-hmm. Wow. Okay. Okay. So first of all, I want to say to this individual, kudos for even raising this as a question and being aware that there might be some dissonance between what you're bringing to the table and what might be valued in the organization. You know, that level of awareness of saying, huh, something feels off is important because a lot of folks just keep it moving, never recognizing until it's too late that something was off. In this individual's case, we're not necessarily saying that there is something off. We just want to investigate the hunch that they're feeling. So, you know, I think it's important to qualify when I work with clients who face this to qualify that this is a hypothesis, okay, that it is an assumption at this point.

2:20It's not necessarily an assertion that the value that they bring is not necessarily matching up with the value that's needed at the organization. That said, certainly worth testing out the hypothesis to see whether it's true or not. And I think that that is the way to approach this for now. I understand also that this comes with a lot of feelings, right, which this individual stated. I feel I or my work feels invisible. It feels like I'm not motivated. What I would recommend is to acknowledge that you might be feeling this way and not let those feelings get in the way of, again, investigating and being curious around whether your hunch is valid or not.

3:15Because a lot of times those feelings that can feel draining can then stop us from doing anything about it. And so how do you test out this hypothesis? I think, you know, one of the first things that I would recommend is, number one, have you defined what the value is that you bring? You didn't articulate it in the question, so I'm not quite sure. And obviously, maybe you didn't have time to articulate it. But are you, with conviction and with confidence, are you able to articulate what is the value that you bring? and are you articulating it not just in terms of what you do but in terms of the outcomes and the results that you drive to that is really important because what is visible to others is not just the actions that you take what is visible in an organization i don't know how large your organization is what is most visible particularly from the folks who will do the rewarding are the outcomes.

4:15All right. So number one is, are you able to articulate what they are? And once you're able to do that, then you can go and find a few folks, you know, and I would say the folks who are the ones who determine whether what you provide is a value for the organization. ask them what are your thoughts around what it is that we're contributing as a team or for myself what are your expectations even maybe starting with that what are your expectations how do you define success and then marry that up with what you believe it is that you're contributing and ask them from your perspective how does what i'm doing or what i've contributed align with what your expectations are.

5:05Because I want to understand if they are aligned, then we can move on to the, you know, in what way can I get recognized, et cetera. But if they're not aligned, then what are the one or two or three things that would bridge that gap, that will close that gap so that you can act on those? Okay. So notice in no way am I yet saying, you know, look at what everybody else is doing and why are they getting rewarded and I'm not. You've got to kind of do a little bit of your own self-due diligence first before you can then potentially, if you've closed the gap, if you are providing that value before you can then turn your lens to everybody else and say, okay, well, wait a minute, I am contributing.

5:44Everybody says I'm contributing. What is the difference between what I'm doing and what others are doing that they're getting rewarded and I'm not, which becomes a different question and a different set of conversations. So to put all of that together, my biggest recommendation is break this down into smaller parts because there's a lot in this question and start with the value definition. Then secondly, move to testing out the hypothesis of value. And then based on that, you either need to work on increasing that value if there's a bridge to close or you need to figure out, well, why am I not getting the reward recognition?

6:23Is it me or is it something structurally that's happening so that then you can decide, you know, what do I want to do? Is this where I want to provide my value or not? Yeah. So it's a little tricky, but very common. I don't know, Mary, if you've had any experience maybe with friends or colleagues who have dealt with this. Yeah. You know, I can't think of a specific example off the top of my head, but when I did hear this question, it did seem to me like the sort of perennial problem of, you know, the sort of soft skills versus hard data, hard skills problem. Right. Like, I think this comes up in a lot of contexts where the value you think you're adding.

7:02How do you measure? Is my team happy? Or I mean, I guess you can measure my team gets promoted and they stay at the company for a long time. And there are things like that. But it seems like if you're spending your energy on developing talent and supporting people, it is a harder thing than, you know, we crush this quarterly earnings or whatever the thing is she's comparing herself to or he. But I think the other thing that was interesting is the sort of anymore part of this question. Right. So I think that it denotes that maybe something else is happening at the company. And obviously this is just one question and we don't know everything that's happening.

7:36But my initial thought was sort of what's changed here because it doesn't seem like they weren't valued for doing those things before. Or that was what came up to me is just sort of this is a perennial problem, but why is it that you felt like those things were valued before? Yeah, why now? Why now? Yeah. And it could be that, you know, context change in terms of the needs of the organization change. It could also be that expectations changed. Right. In terms of the role, you know, I was having a conversation with the sponsor of a client recently. And it's not that the organization changed. It was more that they're like, look, you know, this individual adds tremendous value as somebody who is a subject matter expert, who is a leader in the organization, but very much an individual leader.

8:28leader, you know, tremendous value in terms of execution. And if they want to get more visibility, be advanced, et cetera, they need to start demonstrating value in terms of the strategic perspective that they bring. They need to start thinking beyond their execution role. And right now they're not doing that. Right. And so what's changed are the expectations and also an assumption that that individual actually wants to operate at that level. They might not. And so I think you're right. Context is always important. And the context can be the organization. The context can be the industry. The context can be the time and the climate of what's happening in the market.

9:16and context can also be where you are in your career trajectory right now. Absolutely. Obviously, we could dig into a whole episode on that if we had some more information, but we will move right along. So next question today, it's all about managing interpersonal dynamics on a team. So they write, I'm a VP at my organization. I've been there for several years. when I was promoted, I inherited a pre-existing team. And one of the hardest parts of my job has now become the fact that two of the people on that team, my direct reports, don't get along. They've both come to me separately to complain about the other person.

9:55I find myself trying to mediate, keep the peace. But I also want to have the skills to lead them to kind of find their own resolution and not be the sort of middleman. So at what point do I step in? And at what point do I tell them to just work it out themselves? How do I guide them through that? Mm hmm. Oh, goodness. I feel the pain in all this. I feel the pain. I mean, listen, you know, I know she's been on the show before, but like this is where we want to mention Amy Gallo's Getting Along book. Oh, wonderful. Maybe maybe the first thing is give them each a copy of Getting Along so that they can figure out strategies for each other.

10:35Look, I think, you know, what this highlights is work is made up of, at least for now, you know, humans interacting with each other. And there is both a lot of effectiveness that can happen in that and it can be very energizing and we can see amazing results. and it can also be quite draining in terms of leading to inefficiency because so much of the interactions are spent in a way that take away energy, take away from the results rather than moving forward. And as a manager, as a leader of a team, you know, your job or part of your job And your role is to move this group of folks in a particular direction aligned with a vision in the most effective and productive way so that we can get the results that you need.

11:36And so when you have two people who are spending energy as adversaries rather than allies, not only can it affect their work, it can affect others work as well as, you know, literally slowing down, if not get in the way of getting the results that you desire. It just makes the path a lot more painful than it needs to be. All right. So the question that this individual poses is like, well, what is my responsibility in all this? And how do I get out of it? Right, Mary? Like, I kind of feel behind that is like, okay, please give me an out that I don't need to do anything. Right. Which is what most, you know, I shouldn't say that.

12:17This is not research qualified. This is anecdotal. You know, for the most part, it is very rare that I've run into coaching clients who are like, ooh, coach, like tag me in. And I want, I relish, I relish trying to mediate conflict between my team members. Like most times they're just like, oh my God, can't they just get along like enough of this? So what does one do? I think there are three areas of responsibility that I would suggest without, again, a ton of context that I would suggest to this individual. Number one is, have you called out the elephant in the room? Right. Have you named what you're seeing?

13:07Have you named that there is a conflict? Or are you not naming it while trying to solve it while listening to the two, but not naming it? And when I say naming it, it's not just naming it to each one of them individually, but actually naming it. I'm a fan with my clients who are like, be direct, call them both, you know, say, look, you both have shared with me that there's issues here. We need to name this. And here are the expectations. So your role as a leader is to name the what and the why. the expectations of what you expect of team members in terms of the way that they work together, communicate together, et cetera, behave, and the why, why this is important, both at the collective level for the team, but also why it's important for each one of them, okay, so that they both understand that each of their individual behaviors are consequential.

14:06They're not inconsequential. And so they are as responsible for their behavior as peers as they are their behaviors as individuals. And I think that is the role that a leader can play. A lot of times this breaks down because there's no accountability around all this. A, if you haven't surfaced it, and B, if you haven't actually articulated that it's not inconsequential, then why would there ever be accountability? So A, name it. And that looks like having a conversation with both of them in the room rather than enabling this, you know, person A comes to me, person B comes to me, and then I'm just sort of managing one-on-one.

14:42No, now you have to manage both together in this particular situation with very clear expectations. You convey the what and the why. Then I think the second thing that you can do is if they're still having issues, you know, assuming they've heard you, they understand you're serious, they understand what the expectations are. If they are having difficulty then putting this into action, you can give them resources and support for the how. So let me give an example. let's say what is causing some of the strife right is that colleague a never loops colleague b in advance on some of the things that they're working on together but instead waits till the whole group meeting to tell colleague b right their ideas are dumb right that either idea is dumb or that this is the direction we're moving in and we've already moved and basically he has the colleague A hasn't socialized with colleague B in advance.

15:41Okay. So this is where as the leader, you can say, look, let's articulate where the pain points are. And let me give you some tackles on what I expect you to do. Colleague A, I expect when there's a decision to be made that you loop colleague B in ahead of time. Colleague B, I expect that when colleague A reaches out to you to loop you in, that you don't ignore the emails, but you actually make an effort to meet with that individual and hear them out. So you can get directive. I mean, it's no different than when you're coaching or managing somebody one-on-one. If they're not showing competence in what to do, what do you do?

16:18You get directive in the how. And so give them some direction if they seem to be floundering. And you can ask them, does that work for you? If they're like, no, that doesn't work for me, okay, then you tell me what you're gonna do, but we need a how. It can't just be the intention. I need to understand what the action steps are that you're going to take. So that's number two. So one, name the issue. Two, name the how. What are the action steps you're going to take to make this relationship work in a more productive way? And then number three, hold them accountable. I knew you were going to say that.

16:50You know, I'm the accountability queen. Like, hold them accountable. And that doesn't mean, you know, you're fired, right? Like, that doesn't mean that. It means when you see that the interaction's working well, beautiful, positive reinforcement. Hey, the way I saw the two of you work through that problem, that's exactly what we need. What conditions were in place? What do we need? Et cetera. When it's not working well, you guys, what happened there? What was the breakdown? I need you all to implement it differently next time, right? And it does get to a place where it's really toxic. It doesn't have to be really, where it's toxic.

17:24To me, the sign of it being toxic is that the issue stops being isolated between the two people, but starts pervading not only the rest of the leadership team, but it also starts impacting the teams that report to them. So the teams that report to them then start being adversaries to each other. That really is a slippery slope. And as a leader, I think at a certain point you have to make a call. and that call can look a lot of different ways, right? It could be a restructuring. It could be a recalibration of responsibilities. It could be, you know, two people move out, one person moves out. I'm not going to call it.

18:08My job is not here to give that prescription, but something structurally may need to change, all right? And that is your responsibility to make that call. And that's when I say, you know, Maybe you have some good HR consultants or HR people within your organization. Get them to consult with you if you have a coach. Get them to consult with you around all that. But you've got to sort of stop wishing that things are going to get better if they haven't been able to do it and start asking what needs to change structurally so that we have the right relationships in play. I'm glad you brought that up because my my reaction with the way this question was phrased was actually that there's already sort of in this leader a fair amount of sort of restraint and maturity and saying, how do I push this and make it their problem?

18:56Like, how do I get them to resolve this amongst themselves? It would be very easy to hear both sides of this and sort of decide who's right and who's wrong or who's who's the problem. And maybe I should get them off my team. And this person instead is like, how do I guide them into trying to work this out themselves, which I think is maybe avoidant, but also maybe good leadership. Yeah, I mean, it depends. Right. We don't we don't we really don't have enough. I mean, I appreciate what you're saying, but I think it depends. Like sometimes, you know, sometimes as a leader, you do need to get your hands dirty.

19:24Right. I know that the dream is empower your people, delegate, let them figure it out. But you know what? Yes. Ideally, aspirationally. Yes. And just like in your business, if there is a trouble spot, right, you look and you're like, oh, my gosh, you know, factory plant in this location is burning. You can't just say, oh, well, we'll let it figure it out. You know, it'll simmer off on its own. No, you identify where the pain point might be and the crisis might be. And you also pay attention to that if it's worth it. If it's not worth it, then you leave it alone. Right. So I always say that as a leader, you're always yes, you're moving forward towards a vision and you're moving things forward, but you're also managing risk.

20:16And so one of the things is to assess what is the risk associated with this particular relationship being where it is? Is it that it's just a pain and I don't want to deal with it? And, you know, it's like sometimes I, you know, with my kids, right? Like if they're fighting and arguing, I've had to learn like, how high a risk is this? You know, are they literally causing harm and damage to each other that I'm going to go and interfere? Or is it that I'm just annoyed that there's a lot of noise in the house and that's why I'm interfering? Well, it doesn't matter. But let me understand why and then determine to what degree does this warrant my involvement and to what extent should I get involved?

20:59So that is very situational and it's not cut and dry because in a way, I think it's a bit of a risk assessment when it feels like you're dealing with something in the moment. Yeah. And it depends, too, if it's just sort of gossipy versus really doing things that are detrimental to each other or the team. Yeah, I think the other the other thing you can't go back in time, but I would like to pose to you the question of the fact that this person inherited this team and you don't really know how much the dynamic was already existing with a previous boss or how much it was. Oh, we have a new person who might be open to us complaining about these people and they weren't doing it before.

21:34Right. But I guess my question is, as a leader, if you start recognizing this behavior, it seems like a try to nip it in the bud as quickly as possible situation. situation. Yeah. But listen, you're bringing, I mean, I even skipped over that part, bad coach, bad coach. I didn't take the full context. This is actually critical. What we don't know is the history because sometimes it's that the behavior that the new leader is seeing between colleagues is actually a result of how the previous leader led. And if the previous leader led in a way that engendered a lot of, let's say, competition led by individual rather than as a team, you know, had people pit themselves against each other or kind of played favoritism, then this could be a jockeying move from these.

22:24Right. But as a reaction and kind of a habitual response to how they were led in the past rather than how they are being led now. So what's actually very critical in those situations is for the new leader to say, listen, here's my way of leading and here are my expectations. And what you all are doing is not conducive for the way that we are now approaching things as a team. This is why kind of when new leaders do alignment with their teams, right? How do we want to lead together? How do we want to be a team together? What are the behaviors that we're agreeing on? Are we all operating? That's hard work.

23:07And it can take some time for those behaviors to come into being because people are so ingrained with the previous leadership, right? It is a habitual response rather than them really reacting to what's happening today. We'll be back with more after the break.

23:34When you're making an important business decision, you do your due diligence. You compare vendors, look at the numbers, and make sure you're getting the best value. You wouldn't just accept the first quote that comes across your desk. So why not take that same approach with one of the most important decisions you can make for your family, choosing life insurance. If you've never compared life insurance policies, you could be overpaying. That's where select quote comes in. As a life insurance broker, SelectQuotes licensed agents compare more than 100 life insurance products from over six trusted carriers to help you find a better rate for free.

24:10The process is fast and easy. It takes about 15 minutes to answer a few questions, and SelectQuotes agents shop the carriers for you to find a quote tailored to your situation. And the savings can really add up. SelectQuotes says customers save an average of 30%. So if your policy costs$150 a month, that's$45 back in your pocket every month. Over a 20-year term, that's more than$10 ,000. To me, that's a good reminder that doing your homework on a financial decision can pay off. You take the time to compare options in your professional life, and it makes sense to bring that same care to protecting the people who depend on you.

24:51Get your free quote at selectquote.com slash coachingrealleaders. That's selectquote.com slash coachingrealleaders. Selectquote.com slash coachingrealleaders. They shop, you save. The holidays can be a lot to manage. There's family, travel, a million things on your to-do list. And if you run a business, all of that is happening while your customers still need you. And you can't always be available to answer every call. That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Q-U-O. The business phone builds so you never miss a call or a customer. Here's what I think is especially useful. Quo's AI agent can handle calls and texts 24-7.

25:34It can answer questions, collect details from potential customers, and even text them a link to book an appointment. So instead of worrying about what you might have missed while you were away, you can start the day with a summary and know what needs your attention. Quo also helps make sure things don't fall through the cracks after a call. It creates call summaries, and you can turn a call into a task with a name and due date in just one click. Because saying I'll get back to you is one thing. Making sure you actually do it is another. Money is on the line. Always say hello with Quo. Try Quo for free, plus get 20 % off your first six months when you go to Quo.com slash Muriel.

26:14That's Quo.com slash Muriel. You know, one of the things I come back to again and again is the gap between how we think things are going and how they're actually going. Most leaders know how a process is supposed to run, but not how it really runs day to day. That's exactly the problem today's sponsor, Scribe, was built to solve. Scribe is a specialized intelligence platform trusted by 94 % of the Fortune 500. And Scribe Optimize gives leaders a clear view of how work is really happening across their organization with no interviews and no extra effort from your team. I've been in plenty of meetings with leadership teams where everyone describes the same workflow in different ways.

26:59They spend a bunch of time trying to agree on what's happening, and by then it's already changed. Optimize captures workflows as they happen across the business apps your admin approves, and anything outside those apps is never captured. The live dashboard shows you which workflows are happening, what tools they live in, how much time is being spent, and where the biggest opportunities are. It automatically maps the workflows your team runs most often, so nobody has to do anything differently. The best part? You don't just get the picture. You get recommendations on what to fix and automate with ROI projections you can use to make the case.

27:38To see Optimize in Action, head to scribe.how slash Muriel and mention Coaching Real Leaders for a 30-day risk-free trial. That's S-C-R-I-B-E dot H-O-W slash Muriel. If you're a small business, the right hire can be make or break. Hoping the right people see your job posting isn't the best growth strategy. When the pressure's on and you need the right hire, this is a job for sponsored jobs. When you're hiring and you need to find the right person, not just more applicants, Indeed Sponsored Jobs can help you reach quality candidates. And because Sponsored Jobs boosts your posting and search results and you only pay for results, it can help you spend less time sorting through the wrong candidates and more time finding the person who can really move your business forward.

28:29Sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are 95 % more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs. Join the 3.3 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, this is a job for Indeed-sponsored jobs. And listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at Indeed.com slash podcasts. Just go to Indeed.com slash podcasts right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast.

29:17Indeed.com slash podcasts. Terms and conditions apply. Need to write higher fast? Then this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. All right, we have one more question today. Let's switch the topics a little bit. This is about how someone's being perceived. So my company does 360 performance reviews. And on the latest one, I've gotten some feedback that I'm perceived as intimidating. And I actually got the feedback both from some people that I manage and even a couple of peers. I was honestly surprised because I think of myself as collaborative and approachable. and at this point I don't really know what to do with this feedback like should I take it to heart try to do something about it just keep doing what I've been doing because I hadn't gotten this feedback previously in my career so should I even trust this like I don't know what to believe or what to execute on why do I feel like this is like 25 year old Muriel who's no no i'm having a deja vu moment you intimidated no no no no no no oh why do i feel like 25 year old muriel sent this email in i mean truthfully like i face this like literally so whoever sent this in i feel you i feel you i get where you're coming from i mean i remember literally being told the same thing from somebody who, to this day, is one of my favorite managers of all times.

30:47And he wrote it in my performance review. He's like, Muriel can tone it down. Like, those were the words. Muriel can learn to tone it down. She can come off as intimidating, etc. And I was like, me? What? Like, what do you mean? Okay, so here's the deal. We don't live in a vacuum. All right. So as much as I and you, my dear friend, because we're friends now who sent in this email, as much as we might think we're like warm and fuzzy, and maybe that's the way we experience ourselves, We have to understand that others may not experience us that way because of the lens that they wear and because what we might define as collaborative and warm, et cetera, might not be the way they define collaborative, warm, et cetera.

31:49So is the decision, you know, do I do something about it or do I just ignore it? It depends. Okay. And what it depends on is to what extent does it matter to you how this particular individual or this group of people or whoever it might be, to what extent does it matter to you that they experience you in a way that is similar to the way that you experience yourself? And so in this particular situation, if what you experience yourself as is collaborative, to what extent does it matter to you that they experience you in the same way? And that's important because I'm a realist. I'm not going to sit here and say, yeah, it's going to matter to you for everybody.

32:42It might, you know, it might. Like, I'll be honest, for me, it does matter to me that everyone I come into contact with doesn't feel harmed by my presence. So I do go out of my way the best I can to not come off in a harmful way, right? To come off in a, as best as I can, right? But I also understand that, you know, you don't have to come off a particular way with everybody. Okay? So the first is let's qualify. And then secondly, if it does matter to you, then you have to understand that what it's going to take is for you to be able to have range in the way that you demonstrate collaboration. Right.

33:26So what does it mean to be collaborative to those individuals? How do you know? Ask them. Ask them. You know, it's important for me to come off as collaborative on this team. What does collaborative look like to you? What does it feel like? How do you know when somebody's collaborative? You know what? What it looks like is that when I reach out to you asking for help, that you either help me or you tell me I can't help you because I'm doing X, Y, Z, but I could help you three days from now. That feels collaborative. Or what feels collaborative to me is that, you know, everybody on the team is willing to roll up their sleeves when there's a crisis.

34:06Or what feels collaborative to me is that you loop me in when I'm not in the room. That feels collaborative. That might not be what's collaborative to you, listener, emailer, friend, right? But it doesn't matter because what we need to understand is the cliche of their perception is their reality. And so if you want them to experience their reality a little differently, more aligned with the way that you want to show up, the way that you want to be experienced, then you're going to have to make some moves, but moves based on their definition, not necessarily yours. So this is not about changing who you are.

34:51It's about having more range. But again, it's very important that you know why you're doing this, because if not, it is going to feel like you're just faking it. You're just manipulating it. You're just, you know, doing it or not because you have to. And that's not sustainable. And people will see right through it. And they'll be like, oh, gosh, here's another check the box exercise. And they won't. Nothing will change. OK, so, you know, it's interesting. I shared that I went through that. Literally, I had to check myself like, OK, well, Muriel, how important is it for you for this manager to experience you in a different way?

35:31you know because at the end of the day quite frankly i didn't like that that like people thought i was intimidating like yeah okay so i i might need to change a few things or have more range in terms of i interact that's fine without letting go of you know who i am or diminishing who i am etc okay now i say all that and let me then give a very big footnote which is ultimately, though, you are still just responsible for you. Okay, you can do all the things if the way that they are seeing you is so colored by their experiences with other people even, that it doesn't matter what you do. You also have to accept that and understand that, you know what, that is the way they view me.

36:20I know what I'm doing. And there's really nothing else I can do. but that's just the way it is. So what's possible within that construct? So my advice was going to just be to go home and get all your friends and family involved and tell them about this injustice and make sure that you intimidate them into making sure that they say you're not intimidating. But I think yours sounds better. So we'll go with your advice. Yeah. You know, you know, what's interesting is like when I get feedback on clients who are like this or who get similar feedback. And again, I experienced this very early on in my career.

36:56Nine times out of 10, you go home and you tell people and they're like, yeah, like, why are you not the same way you did? Like, why are you surprised? And so, yeah, typically that that's what will happen. Definitely. All right. Great. Well, we will wrap it up there for today. Okay. Always a pleasure, Mary. Thank you. See you soon. Bye. all right y 'all we will see you next time with another episode of coaching real leaders and when that one drops it'll be another coaching session if you want to unpack the episodes from coaching real leaders you can join me at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com where i host live discussions about coaching sessions you hear on this podcast and i also answer questions just like I do here, but you can ask them directly of me.

37:48And you can also follow me on LinkedIn at Muriel Mignon Wilkins, on Instagram at Coach Muriel Wilkins. A reminder that if you love these coaching conversations, it would mean the world to me if you could head over to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts so that you can subscribe to the show. And please, please, please leave a five-star review. Thank you to my producer, Mary Du, sound editor, Nick Kringko, music composer Brian Campbell, and my chief of staff, Emily Sofa. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations, and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys.

38:24I'm Uriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.