How Do I Lead with Confidence Without Always Needing To Be Right?

0:07I'm executive coach Muriel Wilkins and this is Coaching Real Leaders. I've spent over 20 years working with highly successful leaders who've hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump so they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, But on this show, we have a one-time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they're facing.

0:38Today I'm coaching someone we'll call Carmen to protect her confidentiality. She's been at her organization for a few years in a leadership role and really believes in the company's brand. I have really grown to love leading teams. I think that's, you know, where my passion is. I would like to take on a more senior role, larger teams. Carmen's current organization is smaller than where she previously worked. And she sees both the pros and cons of that. What she likes is the ability to have more of an impact. I think this is a good size company for me. I like to be able to know everybody. And, you know, this is the type of situation where, you know, I interact with the CEO on a pretty daily basis.

1:20where at the other company, never would I meet the CEO. So it's been going really well. What I would say is, you know, we, like many others in our industry, are facing some really big challenges right now. And so that's where I think the smallness becomes a bit of a challenge because all the way up to the C-suite are very involved in every decision and things like that, which makes it a little bit more challenging for me as a director to lead my team and, you know, be able to make decisions and empower because I don't always feel that coming from above either. Let's dive in as Carmen shares what she feels is holding her back.

2:04What I'm experiencing right now is I received some feedback at my annual review. Numbers are, you know, good and, you know, leading my team, I get very high marks there. And I received some feedback that there have been some peers or other leaders that have experienced tense interactions with me and, you know, I need to work on, you know, how do I improve those tense interactions? And it struck me because that is feedback that I've gotten in the past in maybe other words. And I think, you know, even in my home life, I don't always realize that it's a tenseness. To me, it's more of a, just a directness or one thing I've always said is, you know, a gift that I have is you always know how I'm feeling about a situation or a decision or a conversation.

2:52You're never going to have to guess about, well, what is Carmen thinking? And where I'm thinking is where I've always taken that as a gift is now becoming an obstacle for me and moving up. And it's been difficult because business results have been great and my team is doing really well. I know how to do those things. But the fact that I'd gotten this feedback in the past, I felt like sometimes I would then run from that feedback. And if I just had a new opportunity, maybe things would be better. And I want to really focus on why is that happening and how can I how can I still be direct and be who I am and showcase my gift in a different or better way that will lead to success for me and for my company?

3:38It's a tough thing for me because I've always also prided myself on my ability to build relationships. And, you know, whenever I take any of the personality, you know, things, it's all about, you know, relationships and connecting people. And so that's always been such a big thing for me. And as I've matured in my career and in my life, I've taken the perspective of, you know, it's better just to be honest about things versus hiding. and I don't want to be seen as the tense person just because I'm being honest. You know, is there a different way to frame up that communication? So just so I make sure that I hear what's happening.

4:17So you've received feedback. It's not the first time you've gotten this feedback. And you shared that you not only have gotten that feedback in the workplace, but you've gotten some of this feedback as well in your out-of-work context, so in your home life. and the feedback is, and if I'm saying it incorrectly, please correct me because I think it's important that I hear it in the way that you intend. The feedback is that people experience interactions with you as being tense. Is it that they feel like the interactions are tense or that you're tense or both? I think it's a little bit of both, that the interaction is tense and that when Carmen is stressed out or things are not going her way, she gets very tense.

5:05This feedback has also been framed now in a way of this will get in the way of your career aspirations that you have. Absolutely. Okay. And you said you've gotten this feedback previously. Was it at this company or you had it at your previous company? At my previous company. This is the first time this feedback has come at this, in this role at this company. And I really love my job. I love my team. I love my brand. I want to succeed at this company and, you know, be there for a good long time. And this is the, from what you're sharing, it's also feels like, or what I'm hearing is for a while now, when you've gotten this feedback in the past, you were sort of like, like maybe they just don't get me you know if I'm with different people or if I'm in a different situation then this would actually be okay and now you're kind of saying wait a minute like maybe I need to be doing something differently that's exactly it okay what made it different or what I feel is different for me this time is I always chalked it up to well they like you said they don't get me or it's them it's how they're doing things and why they can't handle the directness.

6:20But, you know, a pattern comes forward. This time it was, okay, I can control how I respond. So how do I respond to this and not rely on somebody else's response to me? Well, kudos to you. It's hard. It's hard. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard. Well, what makes it hard? It's hard to admit that I could be doing something differently, better, different. it's hard to really take that ownership. I've always had the right answer. I've always done things the right way and prided myself on, you know, I'm the best. And so when you look inside and think, maybe I'm not the best at this, that's hard. Or it's different.

7:04Maybe not hard, but it's a very different perspective. And, you know, to get really vulnerable about it has been interesting for me, but also freeing in a way. Like, I'm the only one who can change this. Yeah. I mean, you know, you're having your own, like, Taylor Swift moment, right? I wish, yes. Let me be specific about the moment here now. I'm talking about the, hi, it's me, it's me, am the problem moment, right? Although I wish I could change that a little bit because it's not I'm the problem. It's, oh, I'm part of the problem, right? Yes. And so, yes, you are taking ownership, but I want to be very clear that what you're describing here in terms of the feedback that you have gotten is relational.

7:59It is the energy that is created when you are in the room with somebody else. Like the feedback, you didn't give yourself feedback to say, you know what, Carmen, when I'm just sitting with myself, I feel tense with myself, right? Like that's not what you're coming with. You're coming with when I am interacting with others, specifically peers, other leaders within the organization, or even peers in my home life, or folks who I'm trying to relate to, Even though these relationships are important to me, it is being described as the experience of being with me is tense or they experience me as being tense.

8:41And so because there is a other person in the room who is also interpreting the situation, they have their part of it, too. They're not sitting here, so we can't talk about that. But you contribute to that energy that's in the room, to that interaction. So we have to look at your part of the formula, right? Exactly. And then anything that changes on your end or the way you approach it then changes the dynamic in some way. So kudos to you for taking ownership on your part, something which you hadn't done before. Thank you. Thank you. So when you hear this feedback of, hey, when I'm interacting with you, it feels tense or you feel tense.

9:30As you said, like it takes some vulnerability for me to sit here and like accept that maybe I play a part in this. Right. What about it, though, resonates with you, if anything, around what you're hearing? It resonates because I feel the tenseness, too. And so I can look back and think, oh, I wonder if this was one of the people and this is one of the interactions. I could feel the tenseness in myself, maybe not in the moment, but maybe after the fact. Or just that it just wasn't great. And so when I heard it, it's a little embarrassing because I've heard it before. but then I can also look back and say I get it and I don't feel good about it either you know when I think about those times I don't feel good and so then I think well that person probably didn't feel great if I didn't feel good what is it specifically that you don't feel good about how I came across which is what maybe you know outside of the tense you know am I coming across as condescending or why didn't you know this or, you know, what's wrong with you?

10:44Why can't you get this right? Those type of feelings. Is that what you're telling about yourself or is that what you're saying to the other person? That's what I'm thinking sometimes about the other person or I don't like your style so that I'm going to give you a style and then I'm not going to feel good about my style. I think some of the things that I've thought about is if someone isn't doing something the way I would do it, that doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. And I have a tendency to, here's the answer. Here's the way to go about it because it's my way. And if somebody comes and says, well, what if we took this path?

11:21I'm like, no, this is the only way. When you have had these moments of feeling, you said, I feel tense myself. I feel the tenseness and it wasn't great. What is it that you're actually doing in those moments, right? When you think back, like maybe you don't have to tell me the details of the situation, but think back to like a recent moment where in hindsight, you can look back and say, yeah, you know, that wasn't great. Tell me what it is that you were doing in that moment that in hindsight, you're like, I now feel tense about that or I felt tense then and it doesn't, I don't feel great about the way it went down.

12:05I think it's brutal, unfiltered honesty that could be packaged up differently, maybe. So how did you package it up? As brutal, unfiltered honesty. So tell me what that sounds like. I want to like hear, If I were a fly on the wall or, you know, AI in your Zoom, what would I hear? Yeah, I'll give an example of one of my peers. We were talking about a specific metric. It felt like I was getting pushback on this metric. And, you know, what do we need to do to meet this metric? And after the fact, my colleague and I had a conversation and she said, I'm trying to help you. And I said, it doesn't feel like it.

12:50Mm-hmm. And in that instance, I was trying to be brutally honest of, I don't feel like what you're doing doesn't feel like helping me. It was all about me and how I'm feeling versus how she was feeling. Okay. So I'm capturing two things there. There are the words you said, and then there's the tone in which you just shared it with me. Yes. And is the tone that you just shared it with me, is that reminiscent of the tone you would have shared with your colleague as well? Okay. So that's what it sounds like both verbally as well as tone wise when you get tense. We're just going to call that the tense moments.

13:33Yes. Okay. Now tell me in situations where perhaps somebody disagrees with you, you are challenged, etc. And you don't feel tense. What does it sound like then? Then it sounds like that's an interesting perspective or that's a great thought or that's a valid point. Those, I would say, are phrases that I, you know, will use or I really like that. or even I didn't think of that, you know, trying to be okay with, I'm not going to think of everything. That's why there are multiple people in this organization, because we all bring a different perspective and being okay with, I wasn't the one to think of it first.

14:26Does that make sense? Okay. Yeah, it does. And then what's the tone? Cause that's what you would say. So we have the words and what tone would it be in? Oh, I didn't think of that. So, okay. So it's a, how would you name that tone? Curiosity? Curious tone? Curiosity. Mm-hmm. How would you name the previous tone? I like the tense tone, tense moments. Tense tone. Yeah, tense tone. Okay. So the shift is for you, the way you've experienced it, is that when you are having tense moment, I interact with Carmen in tense moment, what I would hear is, you know, no, that's not it, right? An assertion. That's not it.

15:07Either that's it or that's not it. And a tone that as you categorize as tense. And when I would shift to the non-tense moments with Carmen, I would hear things like, oh, I like that, or I didn't think about that, or that's an interesting idea, et cetera. And the tone would be curiosity. I want to kind of dig into the words, right? So the first one was intense moments is no, that's not it. The shift to that's an interesting idea, or that's something that is either something that I like or something that I'll take into consideration or just something to think about. In the same way that we named the two different tones, tense tone, curiosity tone, how would you categorize the types of words that you use, the language that you use when you are in the tense moments and how you frame it?

16:06It's actually a framing of your response versus the framing of your response in the non-tense moments. What name would you give it? What's the impact around that? The immediate thought that comes to mind is open versus closed. Okay. So tense, we have a closed framing, closed response. Not tense, we have a open response. Yeah. So when you are in the tense situations, what is it about the person, the situation, or yourself, or all three of the above, that you are assuming that leads you to then respond in a closed way? I'm assuming that we're not aligned or I'm assuming that the other person or in the situation, they just don't agree with me or my perspective.

17:13And as a result, you have to do what? Defend myself. Maybe. Defend what about yourself? Defend my perspective or just defend my rightness. I have to meet my goal. And so you meet your goal by defending your rightness, which makes you then be closed by saying? By saying, you're wrong. I'm right. I'm, yes. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We'll be right back after this.

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20:57Sometimes it takes hearing the same feedback in a new situation to really understand that something needs to change. In the past, Carmen could brush off some of the criticisms of directness, telling herself that maybe it was the people around her who didn't understand her. But in this organization, where she really wants to succeed, she began to be honest with herself about the pattern, and she's highly motivated to do something about it. I'm always careful around the idea of fault in these situations. Every interaction involves multiple people, and we can't control how someone else responds. But we can focus on Carmen's part of the equation and see whether changing her behavior changes the outcome.

21:42One way to do that is to start giving names to her different types of reactions. Defining these reactions is the first step for Carmen in beginning to change. Once she can recognize that she's making an assumption or moving into a closed response, she has more room to choose what happens next. Let's push a bit further to better understand how these realizations are making Carmen feel in our conversation. I feel like as we're going through this, like I'm looking at you and you're like breathing and sighing very heavily through. Yes. Tell me what you're thinking as we're working through this. What's coming up for you?

22:19That there's so much more behind the words. But the words are taking on so much like the tone, the tone says all of the things that are my issues, not the other person's issues. Yeah. I mean, the tone is actually falling right in line with what you want it to do, which is very aligned with the like, I need to defend myself. I mean, if I have to defend and protect myself, I'm not going to use a tone of, oh, you know, oh, this is great. I'm going to be like, oh, back off. Like, think about it in the physical world. If I need to defend myself against someone, I'm not going to use a tone of like, oh, hello, you know, I'm going to or tell me a little bit, you know, like, it's not going to be that.

23:04It's going to be like back off. And I'm making a posture with my hands like you need to back off. And so your tone is actually falling very much aligned with the words that you're using and with the assumptions you're making, which is that people are aligned. They disagree. And therefore, in order to reach my goal, I have to be right so that they can agree with my rightness. That's exactly it. I think this is maybe what it means to be righteous. Rightness and righteous. Yes, I think you're right. Let's sort of fast forward. I want you to keep in mind that same situation that you've been picturing that was that tense moment.

23:51Okay. What would you have needed to assume differently about yourself, the other person, or the situation in order for it to lead to those more open words and that tone of curiosity that you have experienced before. And when I say, what would you have needed to assume differently? I'm not suggesting that you lie to yourself or make something up. Okay. Yeah. You know, what else could you assume that is true that would have led to more open words and more of a curious tone? Assuming that there are more than one way to achieve the goal. My way might have really good aspects of it, but there might be something that somebody else has thought of or a different team's perspective and how they go about their work to get to this goal can be as helpful in achieving the goal, which is achieving this new metric for the business.

24:56And so when you use that as your assumption, like, I just want you to sit with that. Is that something that you actually believe to be true? What you just said? Because I don't want you making anything up, you know, because some people will be like, oh, because I can find you something else out. And then deep in their soul, they're like, there's no other there's like really nothing else to figure out. I really do believe that. And what I struggle with is the part of my brain that tells me, but your way is probably the best. Or, but you've always been rewarded for meeting things and doing things your way.

25:32And so it's that struggle of, I know that what I'm saying is true, you know, that different perspectives can, you know, lead to a much better result. but fighting with the piece of me that is not having all of the answers. Yeah, right. So what I hear you saying is, you know, it's not just that like I know the answer or I want to be right. What is supporting the tenseness and the closed and the defensiveness is I have the best answer. Not only do I have the answer, I have the best answer and I need it to be the best answer. And I need you to understand and accept and own that it's the best answer.

26:14Yes. And so that in and of itself is very closed, right? Because it's one way. How could you take that one simple statement, I have the best answer, and let it breathe a little bit, meaning open it up to the other as well. Because that's what I hear you doing. You kind of want to bring the other into the room. So what would be the small nuance that you could reframe that belief? I have the best answer. What could it be reframed to that would actually allow for acknowledgement of other people's answers, which is what the, oh, I didn't think about that. I like that. I'm open to that, blah, blah, blah.

26:55And also help you lead with more of a curious tone rather than a tense tone. Let's see. This is the hard part, right? The reframing. And we're just playing around. You don't even have to. We're playing around. Okay. We're going to hold it lightly. You don't even need to follow it. You can say it and then be like, nope, I don't like that one. Yeah. For me, it's, I think, still recognizing that I have good ideas, but multiple ideas. I don't want to discount my ideas. And I still want to have confidence. And I think that's where I go when I feel someone has a different perspective. Then I start to question, well, am I wrong?

27:33And I want to still have confidence in my thoughts and perspectives because I know that I do have really good thoughts and ideas. But it's not about being the best. It's about bringing all the good ideas together to form one grand result. And so I'm going to offer you what we often miss. But as people say it all the time, I hear it all the time. even the way you just framed that whenever we used the word but we're sort of dismissing one part of what we're saying and so when you said I have good ideas but and then you're like no let me stop that because I feel like then I'm dismissing my part of it so yeah you would be dismissing your part so how could you reframe what you think about the idea so that it doesn't dismiss you or dismiss the other I have good ideas and you have good ideas because two things can be true.

28:29Two things can be true. So that could be one, right? Potentially, instead of using I. We. We. Look at how revolutionary that is, right? So what if, let me just throw it out there. We're just brainstorming here. What if you tried instead of I have the best answer. I believe we have the best answer. What difference would that make, do you think, in the way that you communicate both in what you say and how you say it? I have this weird sense of freeness, like something has been, you know, off my chest, that it's not just about me having to come up with the right answer. it's we're all in this together and we're all really smart and I don't know if that's answering your question exactly the way you want I don't want it I know I know but you know it's this huh I'm not the only one responsible to come up with the right answer we can do this together yeah and so what's interesting me in your response to like how does that feel if you just reframe your operating principle from I have the best answer to we have the best answer, which then leads you to a tone that's more curious and words that are, as you put it earlier, more open.

30:01And you said, oh, it makes me feel freer. I think what's happening is you're expanding, you're making the space bigger, you're allowing others in the space that you've created, whereas in reality before what you were experiencing and definitely what they were experiencing is that the space was closed as you put it earlier it's like it's all i've made it all about me they're in the room but they're not really in the room yeah so does that mean that there are times maybe many many times when when you do have the best answer of course yes there are gonna be times when you have the best answer for that situation my question to you is as you are leading not just your teams, right, but you're also leading these relationships with your peers and with other leaders, because this is where you're getting the feedback from, particularly, what is the objective there, ultimately?

30:57The objective is the collaboration and the relationships to build larger, stronger teams. My team is great, but there are all these other teams. And the objective is not many small teams, but one large team that is working at the high level. Yeah. So what I'm hearing you say is what I want to have happen, right, the ideal outcome that will also support me in my career and in getting my objectives is that there's a collectiveness and a collaboration in meeting the business goals. the objective is not that we meet the business goals just because of me and my answers or just because of me yeah so if we peel back if we reverse engineer to the objective is that we meet the business goals not i meet the business goals if we reverse engineer from the we which approach the one that we categorize as tense or the one that we recognize as non-tense there are two paths, which one increases the likelihood of you getting to that goal of reaching the business objectives collaboratively?

32:12The curious, open, Carmen. Exactly. Okay. The curious, open, Carmen. So now you have two paths, and I'm sure there are many others, but we have two right now to choose from. Notice I'm not saying get rid of the closed, Carmen, because are there going to be moments when you need to be like that, where that is the path that you want to follow? Yes, there will be moments, but it is all grounded in what is the outcome you're looking to drive to here, rather than reacting to, as you've said it, how I've been rewarded in the past, how I define who I am by being right all the time, because then you're not meeting the goal of the business objectives.

32:57You're just feeding and meeting the goal of making sure that you can defend the success and rewarding that you've had. Two very different objectives. Yeah. Is that landing with you in terms of having these two paths? Absolutely. Okay. Then the nervousness I get is, what if I choose the wrong path at the wrong time? Yeah. So what if, what if, let's play that. What if. What if that happens? What do you do? If I choose the more open, curious, and I should have chosen the other, I think that's what I worry most about is either my team or my peers will be looking to me to make a decision because they're not sure or they don't have the ideas.

33:44And it will take a little bit longer to get to maybe there'll be some more swirl to get to where we need to be versus getting to there right away with a response and then if what if I choose the more closed this is the way to do it if I do that when I could be missing out on a lot of other really great ideas or a lot of other perspectives or missing out on, let's say, great relationships, but I don't know that that may be a little too high. Yeah, so that's the consequence, right? That's the implication. That is the evidence you would see afterwards, right? And we talked earlier about, you've mentioned that you have felt the tenseness, right?

34:30And sometimes it's been in the moment, sometimes it's been after the fact when you look back and you're like, oh, that wasn't that great, you know? Yeah. So you've recognized, you know, we've now put names to it, but you've recognized moments when you're like, oh, I was closed. You know, it was closed, Carmen, who showed up. And it should have been open Carmen that showed up. That's what that situation called for. That's after the fact. So that's in hindsight. How do you think you could recognize it in the moment? How would you know? What evidence would you need to have in the moment that, oh, wait a minute, closed Carmen has entered the group chat, but who we really needed was open Carmen.

35:12I think it's recognizing the other people in the room, their responses, because if I close off, they're going to close right off. I think being able to get those social cues and pick up on them and be thinking about them. That's number one is how are other people feeling? How am I making other people feel? But then also that feeling that rises up in my chest when I just know like, OK, close, Carmen, go back down. OK, so that is your signal. OK, you get two signals. You get external cues and then you get internal cues in the moment. So I love the group chat thing, right? Because it's like, you know, I don't know if you're in any group chats, but I'm in a group chat.

35:57And it's like, I actually, sometimes I didn't know how to read the external cues. So like I had to ask, what does the exclamation point mark emoji actually mean? When people react, the little reaction with the exclamation, I'm like, is that bad or good? Like, I don't know. Does it mean you're excited or are you alarmed? like I know and I'll tell you the gen z-ers at my office have like that emoji is bad don't ever use that one I'm like what do you mean I was just trying to give you a thumbs up like it's great me being the gen x-er that I am I just was thoroughly confused but here but here is the point right like use the external cues to be able to read and you've had enough of them that you can go back and say oh like when I'm dealing with this person this is when I can feel like they're experiencing the tense moment.

36:44And this is the response I get when they're not experiencing that. And that may be different person to person. So there's a observe, read the external cues. And don't ignore the internal cues, which you have articulated you do feel. You were like, I feel it rising up in my chest. Then you kind of like showed it to me visibly, right? Pay attention to that. That's your body telling you, this isn't it. We're trying to help you see that this is not in alignment with what this situation needs right now. Yeah. How does Open Carmen gracefully take over if Close Carmen has started the group chat? How do I say, stop, let me reverse and start that conversation over without being like, okay, Carmen, what are you doing here?

37:40Because sometimes it will take close Carmen to start off and see the external cues or even feel the internal cues to then say, hold up. Okay, open, Carmen, please come take over. Okay. I love this so much. So first of all, when you are in the moment, you know how we talked about hindsight? Hindsight is when you can look back and say, oh yeah, I could have done that differently. Very useful. Use it as learning. In the moment, I call that having insight. You're in it and you see as it's happening. It's not just seeing what's happening. You've got to see it first. Oh my gosh, yes. Close Carmen is in the group chat.

38:19And now I have a choice because we've laid out the paths. I can have others enter the group chat. So I'm going to run with this group chat metaphor, analogy, whatever it is. If you were literally in the group chat with your friends and you're interacting with your friends in a particular way and you're realizing the text isn't landing the way that I need it to land or I don't feel good about it's not landing well with me or it's not landing well with others, what would you do? I would probably say, I'm sorry that that came out that way. That's not how I intended it or what I really meant to say or let me clarify and take that other path of trying to land a little more smoothly.

39:03Okay. I mean, I think you, of course, correct. You pick up another club. I often think about this as like, there's a reason there's a lot of golf clubs in a bag. You don't play a game of golf with just one club, or at least you can, but you're not going to play a very complex game. you know yeah it's gonna make it a lot harder on you to play with one club but if you can play with all the clubs fantastic if you can play with a few okay good enough yeah but you don't just say well I picked up that club I'm just gonna stick with that club I'm just not gonna use any of the others that are in the bag you say oh my bad like I tried to swing with that well I don't know the technical technicalities of golf that well I'm not sure if you're not allowed to switch clubs but in this game there's no rules around that yeah you course correct you say oh you know what my bad wrong club I don't even know if you need to apologize you acknowledge which is difference you know give yourself grace but you acknowledge you know what let me own my part of it that's not the way that I needed that to land I'm just gonna course correct let me start over again or let me reframe that or let me just hear you out right now yeah you course correct in the moment in the moment I number one love that analogy of the the golf clubs I'm also not a great golfer I didn't maybe maybe you're a great golfer I don't know no I'm not yeah but I think that's so true that you have all these different clubs for different situations different reasons to me that analogy was really helpful.

40:45We'll be right back after this.

40:53What's interesting in Carmen's situation is that her assumptions and her tone are actually aligned. The challenge isn't necessarily how she's communicating. It's the assumptions underneath it. So part of the work in this coaching session is to expand what Carmen believes is possible in any given situation. She can have a good idea and someone else can have a good idea too. She can be confident in her perspective without needing it to be the best and only perspective. That also means taking a step back from any specific situation or interaction and focusing instead on the ultimate goal. First, we define the reactions Carmen was having.

41:38We then define what she's ultimately trying to accomplish, the success of her team and her career. That becomes her North Star when things start getting tricky. There's also an important concern for Carmen here that giving up defensiveness could also mean giving up control or make her look like a weaker a leader when she actually needs to be decisive. But the goal isn't to make Carmen less decisive. It's to give her more choices and help her recognize which kind of leadership the moment requires. So we'll jump back in to address those concerns.

42:19I am so transparent that I like to be like, I'm sorry, let me start over. And I just want to make sure that that's okay to even acknowledge I'm course correcting. Acknowledge my flaw. Well, I want to be careful about the words that we use. Okay. Because no golf club is in the bag accidentally. None of them are flaws. They're all clubs. They're just all used for different reasons. So picking up or choosing initially the club that is not aligned with the goal that you want out there when you're on the course, you know, depending on the positioning you have on the course, doesn't make the club wrong.

43:00It just makes it that this is not the club that's going to increase the probability that you get that ball close to that hole. That's all that is. And so to bring it back to you, if you were to take the closed approach and you realize, oh, that's not going to get me closer to the goal that I have around we need to reach the goal in a collaborative way, then it's not saying, oh, closed approach is wrong or flawed. It's just that's not the one that's going to get me there with the path of least resistance, right? Yeah. Or in that situation. Yeah, exactly. So let me put that club back in and let me pick a different club, not a better club, not the best club, not the right club, a different club that is more aligned with the distance that I am to the hole, to wherever I'm teeing on, whatever it is.

43:58It's alignment. Alignment between club and outcome. Alignment between assumption, communication tone and words, and outcome. That's what we're doing. So I am offering you to reframe the language you're using as you're course correcting because inherent in the language you were using is that there's something wrong. There's nothing wrong. They are choices. How does that land with you? Really, it resonates a lot. I go to words like wrong, fail, flaw, those right away faster than I should or maybe not even faster, and I just shouldn't go to those words. And so it's permission to not think about that, permission to take the positive route.

44:50Yeah. I mean, in a way, Carmen, right? Inherently, when we think there's always a best, what does that mean? That there's always a worst. worse so you have been approaching things from sort of black or white versus oh there's a range there's gradients there's like radians of colors they're just all different colors there's not a best and the others the worse it's not a ranking of choices it's a distribution of choices very different way of looking at these situations and therefore approaching them and therefore how we experience them. And when I say we, I mean you, Carmen. You haven't even done anything differently and you're already like, I'm experiencing this a little differently with a little more openness, a little more ease.

45:43So that's insight. In the moment, how you course correct. Now, I want to offer you another element. We've talked about hindsight, insight. What if you approach these situations when you can with foresight? What do you think I mean when I say foresight? thinking about a plan for approaching this situation before speaking before jumping in that's right and so the beautiful thing about having pattern recognition right which you have had which you have i love like we are we're starting on like the advanced stage because you already have the pattern recognition is you can say oh i know what the pattern is.

46:33And I understand what my choices are. Like, again, I'm going to go golfing. I know what the course is. Maybe I've played it before, or maybe I've studied it, or maybe I've heard about it, you know, or maybe I don't know anything, but at least like, let me go in knowing that I don't know anything about this course. Therefore, how do I want to approach this course knowing what I want my desired outcome to be. How would I approach it that would increase the probability that I get to the desired outcome? So the foresight is to start with what is my desired outcome? And for you, you know, I know there's many others, but we've sort of said, oh, like one desired outcome is I have to get to the business goal.

47:25The other desired outcome is we collaboratively need to have the business goal. You choose. What do you want the outcome to be? And now I'm going into this meeting. So what would be questions that you could ask yourself to prepare you for a meeting or a conversation that would increase the chances you would approach that meeting aligned with the outcome that you desire? The first thing that comes to mind is what club do I need to have in my bag for this situation, which I don't know. So I like what you said about what is the desired outcome and really understanding what is this particular situation?

48:12Where are we at? And, you know, in the process of getting to the outcome, You know, what stage are we at? Have we tried lots of things? Is this the very beginning or the end? Yeah. I mean, so in a way, like you're working the process backwards, right? You're reverse engineering. You're starting because now this is in the future. What do I want the outcome to be? How do I want people feeling in that meeting? Do I want them to feel like it's tense? Do I want them to feel like it's open? Do I want to feel like it's tense? Do I want to feel like it's open? Is this a we situation or is this an I situation?

48:44You choose. I'm nonjudgmental. Pick, right? Choose. Then you can work it backwards. Oh, if I want it to be a tense situation, then what are the words I need to use? And what is the tone I need to use? We already know what they are. You know, the words would be, I know the answer. I know I'm right. The tone would be the tense tone, right? Oh, if my desired outcome is I want people, I want to increase the chances of people not feeling tense. I want to increase the chances of me not feeling tense. I want this to be a wee collaborative thing. Then I know that the club I pick up is the open Carmen tone and words, which is curiosity and da-da-da.

49:29Okay. And so what is the mindset I would need to have? What are the assumptions I would need to make about myself, about the person I'm dealing with or people I'm dealing with or the situation that would increase the likelihood that open Carmen enters the group chat over close Carmen or whichever one you choose. You can do all that in advance. I love that. That's foresight. What would foresight allow you to do? It would allow me to play out the situation and test out maybe. Yeah. Close Carmen, open Carmen, and what happens, what might happen, and course correct before getting to the course. It's practice.

50:14And if you go in and you realize, oh, I did foresight and damn it, I didn't bring in the club that I was supposed to use, what do you kick in with then? Then it's the course correction. Then it's the course correction. Then it's the insight. Okay? And if even all of that doesn't work, then you have hindsight. And guess what? Hindsight is amazing because it's the lessons learned and you're like, all right, opportunity. It's not to beat yourself up. It's to say, OK, great. That just means that was another opportunity to learn and I can reapply it. So those are all things that are at your disposal.

50:48Now, there is nothing I believe that I can tell you or switch that I can turn on to say, OK, from now on, you're going to go and use them. You know, so what would you need to support you to be able to actually apply this insight, foresight, hindsight, and then walk through the questions that we articulated? What would hold you accountable to that? Well, what I was going to say is I need to hit the driving range and practice and gather data, if you will, on what happens when I use foresight, hindsight, insight, all of the things. But I don't know if that's holding myself accountable. It's more, okay, that's the, I'm just going to go action and practice and do.

51:40Yeah, so that would support you in building the muscles. Building the muscles. Absolutely. The accountability, I like to think of finding, you know, an accountability partner and, you know, tell someone that I'm working on this and say, can you call me out when maybe I picked the wrong Carmen to come out? Then I think it's not on somebody else to tell me that I did it wrong. I have to. It's about me and my response and my reactions. oh so may i offer a suggestion because you could do that and i think that's fine you can tell people here's what i'm working you know this is something i'm trying i'll say blame it on the coach you know i talked to a coach and like i think i'm gonna try this you tell me what you think it's not on them you could just ask them you know enroll them that's certainly fine and you can also you know give yourself a reminder so you know what meetings you have coming up And you can say, OK, like, let me take five minutes, three minutes.

52:43That's how long it took us right now to go through that process. You know, what is the outcome I'm trying to achieve here? What would I need to say and how in order to achieve that outcome? What do I need to assume about me, the other, the situation in order to increase the likelihood that that's what happens? you know with no attachment it might it might not you're just trying to increase probability so you're basically thinking through your golf game before you're on the course you know you're going to go play golf don't wait till you're on the course to be like oh my god i'm so surprised i'm here how did i get here what am i doing yeah so you make it part of your warm-up and by the way I am notorious for like not doing my warmup stretches right before my workouts.

53:39But then I've had to, right? Because I'm like, I don't want to hurt anymore. So that's enough to be hold myself accountable. And my body's been like, you have to. So I make it a rule, like, right before the five minutes, it's just practice, practice. It's like brushing your teeth, you know? So if you have the practice of, yeah, I brush my teeth right before I go to bed, same thing, that's holding yourself accountable, tie it on to something you know is going to happen. You know you're going to have the meeting. Look at your calendar, either right before or the day before. Take 10 minutes. Look through the conversations you need to have.

54:1010 minutes. Let me think through them. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. That's the accountability. Hold yourself accountable. I can do that. You can do that? Yes. I know I can do that. Yes. Okay. So I feel like we've covered a lot. We have. Tell me how you feel now versus at the beginning of the conversation. I feel really light and great and that there are other paths and I can choose the path. You know, that to me is, I don't want to say that there's a way out of this, but I can do the work and I can take that responsibility and that onus and have a different outcome. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love that you, in the moment, were like, I don't really know if it's about a way out of this.

54:57I think there is a way. In fact, there are multiple ways, right? There are multiple ways. Your choice. And that's all you can control. How they respond then is up to them. You can't own that. But you can control how you respond to any given situation. You've demonstrated today that you're able to make that choice in the moment. and before the moment. So that's your practice. Great. Thank you. Thank you. As we wrap up the coaching session, it's important for Carmen to walk away with a practical plan to implement some of the changes we've talked about. To extend the golf metaphor, she needs to figure out her plan to practice on the green.

55:41The tools in her toolkit include hindsight, looking back at a difficult interaction and asking what she can learn from a situation. Insight, recognizing in the moment when closed Carmen has entered the group chat and knowing that she can course correct. And Foresight, getting ahead of the situation by thinking a few minutes to ask what outcome she's driving towards to describe which club she wants to bring into any given conversation. And the thing to remember about practice is if you get it wrong, it's not a failure. It's just another opportunity. Because the goal isn't for Carmen to always choose the right response.

56:23It's to build the muscle of recognizing that she has choices and then choosing the approach that is most aligned with what she wants to accomplish.

56:39That's it for today. Come back in two weeks for a new Coaching Real Leaders Ask Muriel Anything episode. If you want me to coach you through an issue or have a question you want answered, head on over to coachingrealleaders.com and let me know. And if you want to unpack the episodes from Coaching Real Leaders, you can join me at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com, where I host live discussions about each coaching session you hear on this show. You can also follow me on LinkedIn at Muriel Wilkins and on Instagram at Coach Muriel Wilkins. A reminder that if you love these coaching conversations, it would mean the world to me if you would go to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to subscribe to the show and leave a five-star review.

57:24Thank you to my producer, Mary Du, sound editor, Nick Krenko, music composer, Brian Campbell, and my chief of staff, Emily Sofa. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys. I'm Uriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.