Ask Muriel Anything with Special Guest Matt Abrahams

0:05Hi friends, this is Muriel Wilkins and this is Ask Muriel Anything from Coaching Real Leaders. In these episodes, I'm joined by some special guests who I also call friends that will help me field questions that have come in from folks like you who are listening, the Coaching Real Leaders community, or that also come up in my client work. And today I am super excited to be joined by Matt Abrahams. He is a lecturer at Stanford's Graduate School of Business. He hosts an amazing podcast, you might have heard about it, I'm sure you have, called Think Fast, Talk Smart. And he is releasing an updated version of his book, which by the way, is one of my favorite books to refer clients to, called Think Faster, talk smarter.

0:54Over and beyond that, Matt and I have had multiple chats over the years. I've been on his show, but beyond that, we've just had very nice conversations about work and life and otherwise. And the last time I saw him in person was at a hotel gym in London as I was coming off a Peloton bike and he was climbing on one. So clearly we have a lot of intersections. Matt, Welcome, welcome. So glad to have you here. Muriel, it's always a pleasure to chat with you, and I'm glad we're not as sweaty and tired as we were the last time we met. That's for sure. That's for sure. I might not be able to have as eloquent a conversation as what we're able to have or we're about to have if that were the case.

1:39So, yes, before we jump into these listener questions, which we have some fantastic ones, I just want to kind of ground in the area that you're an expert in. You are an expert in communication. And I will say that years ago, I used to do a lot more in communication. You know, I co-authored a book called Own the Room, which was around executive presence. And we had a lot of information in there around how to communicate. And fast forward, then I found your book. And I find that I refer people to your book way more than I refer them to my book. So that says something. So we have some overlap. And I love getting your take on things.

2:21And I want to understand from your perspective, why do you think communicating effectively is still such a challenge or hard problem for leaders, even with all the resources out there, like your podcast and your book and even AI? Goodness gracious, right? Why is it such a challenge? There are many reasons that communication can be challenging for people. One is just anxiety. It's hardwired into us as humans to be nervous in high stakes communication situations, be they planned or spontaneous. So we've got that to manage. Additionally, a lot of us are so busy doing the tactical strategic work that we do as leaders that we often don't put a priority on the role of communication.

3:10I actually define communication as operationalized leadership. So I have a very strong position on the role communication should have in leadership, but most people don't prioritize it. And the reality is a lot of us don't get training on it. You know, we learn in the last minute and the stuff that we do learn is very situationally specific. And yet more and more our job as leaders and as humans is to communicate in a much more agile way. And so I think those three factors together just make it something that's challenging. The nice thing is, as you well know, is it's a skill you can learn, but you have to invest in it and you have to practice.

3:49That's right. What I realized, and tell me if this resonates with you, is that many times when I was being asked to coach someone around their communication skills, and primarily the communication skills of being able to get a thought across clearly and concisely and in a way that others could understand it, what I found was that while it was being presented as a communication skill underlying it, which is why I love the title of your book, it was really a critical thinking capability. Does that resonate with you? 100%. Communication is the back end of the critical thinking process. And I don't know if we want to get into this today or not, but one of my biggest concerns about AI is when you rely on AI to output your communication, we are giving up a bit of the critical thinking behind it.

4:43And And while we might get really polished communication as the outcome, if we're questioned on it, challenged on it, have to make an adjustment to it, we might not be able to do so as well because we didn't put the thought into it that we typically need to. So, yes, poor communication is often a signal for deeper issues around critical thinking and assessment. I love that you're saying that. So basically, don't short circuit the process because it'll backfire at some point. You expose yourself to potential issues. Absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, I'll share a little bit of a vulnerable story here.

5:20I had that happen to me, actually. There was it wasn't communicating in terms of writing. It was actually, yeah, it was something that I needed to say in a group format. at, this was a couple of years ago. I mean, when AI was first starting to come out or come out, at least come out to me. And I was like, oh, let me see if it can help me. And it gave me these talking points or the talk and, or what I had to say to introduce this individual. And I remember when I finally went to deliver it, I couldn't deliver it in an authentic way. And that's not something I feel good about if I feel like I'm faking through what I have to say, but that's what I felt.

5:59And I realized the reason why is because I didn't originate it, I had not fully metabolized it. That's right. And so to your point, I just knew that I wasn't at my best. Thankfully, it was a very low stakes, you know, not work related situation. But I learned from that. And actually, ever since I'm like, you know what, when it comes to my writing, when it comes to my speaking, I'm I'm I have to be the originator. So, yeah, I open up one of the new chapters in my updated book on AI telling the story of a colleague who, when interviewing for a new job, very talented, very qualified for the job he was interviewing.

6:35But in the midst of the interview, he was using AI to help him answer the questions, almost like Cyrano de Bergerac having the person in his ear giving him advice. And then all of a sudden the interview deviated and the person asked for more detail or for follow-up. And he was totally stumbled his way through it because he didn't have the deep thought process that you need to answer questions, in his case, for an interview. So there is assistance. AI can be a great tool to help you, but it shouldn't replace the critical thinking that you need to do. Yeah. So every time you see when you put something in AI and you see the little thing that says thinking, thinking, thinking, it should actually be a prod that it's telling you to think.

7:17I love that. Yes, absolutely. Yes. Let's think together. I'm going to be looking at that very differently moving forward. I'll be like, Muriel, you should be thinking. That's right. All right. Very good. Well, let's dive into some of these questions that folks have because they're terrific. Yes. So the first one comes from someone who shared as follows. I lead a large team and recently got some feedback that I don't always listen to their suggestions. I don't really agree with that feedback. I think that I do listen to what they have to say, but ultimately the buck stops with me and I'm the one who has to make the decisions and stick to them.

7:57Am I doing something wrong here? How would you respond to this individual? So I think the real issue to me is the people's perception of is she listening or not? That to me is what the real issue is. If she feels that she is listening and that's that's great. I think there are questions we could ask her to see if she really is. But it's the perception that concerns me. And as a leader, she likely does have to make the decision. So I would really focus on helping her to understand what cues and clues her team is using to assess, is she listening? And there's some simple things I think she could do to demonstrate listening.

8:38I am a huge fan, and you know this, of paraphrasing, of synthesizing and paraphrasing what you hear. That doesn't mean you agree, but in the midst of a meeting and somebody contributes some ideas, acknowledge what they said name it and then you can either act on it follow through with it but at least you've demonstrated that you could document it in some way capture it in meeting minutes write it on the whiteboard if you're physically in a room together so demonstrating listening is important because when we demonstrate we're listening we're demonstrating we value the other person and the ideas they have again we're not committing to agree with them to follow up and make the decision that they're advocating for.

9:18But I would be very curious to know what her team is seeing or not seeing from her that's getting them to think that way. Yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, what I find really interesting even in this question is I love when a client or an individual shares a question or presents an issue and they are showing their cards in the way that they're presenting it. So the fact that this individual said, my team is telling me that I don't always listen. I don't really agree with that. Right. And so I'm almost imagining that this is what's happening in the meeting. And perhaps, perhaps what I would say to this individual is, have you thought about how maybe the way that you're even framing this question, how that translates in meetings?

10:07To what extent are you, when they share something, responding with a I agree or I disagree? And the disagreement might be interpreted as not listening versus what you just shared, Matt, which is before you even get to that. Do a little synthesizing, paraphrasing, demonstrate that the listening has actually happened before the rebuttal or before the response. OK, so I think that's really important. I also think in addition to what you shared of what does it look like for the team to be listened to or not listened to? I think there's two things. One, that's a segue from what you said, which is whenever you're working with a team, everybody has a different experience of how they experience anything.

10:59Right. What might sound like listening to me might be different for you, Matt. Right. So I think this is where the work of actually establishing rules of engagement and clarifying what the team norms are so that we all have a common definition and interpretation of what listening and everything else looks like is important. So has she done that with her team? Has she sat them down and say, hey, listen, let's talk about listening. What does it look like for all of us to listen so that it's not just her, but that everyone is on the same page? Out of that comes my second point, which is sometimes folks think that you're only listened to if what you shared is actually going to be followed through with.

11:45And so this brings me back to what is the purpose of a conversation that you're having with your teams? Are you making it explicit up front? Whether you are just taking in their information for consideration, whether they are weighing in, whether they are deciding, whether you are delegating rights to whatever happens to them. because if they think that what they have to share is going to drive the decision and what you think is, oh, this is just an FYI, then of course they're not going to feel listened to if you go in a different direction. So being explicit around why we're having this conversation and what role each person plays or group plays in terms of the communication then can help establish, well, in what way should I be listening or not?

12:38So those would be some of the things that I would recommend that this individual pay attention to. I really like those suggestions. I think it really is important to have a meta conversation about the interaction we have, how we listen to each other, how we respect each other, how we move ideas forward, and then making sure that we're all having the same conversation. If I think that this is something that I need you to act on and you think you're just information gathering, that disconnect is going to lead to potential feelings of not listening and not being concerned. I would also love for her to do some review and reflection at the end of these meetings to really highlight this.

13:16I think it's super valuable at the end of collaborations and meetings for the leader to say, let's take a minute just to talk about the quality of the communication we had, not to rehash things, but to call out these issues that you're bringing up so we can address them in the moment. I do have to say that I like that she has received this feedback and that she's actually interested in trying to address it. There are leaders who don't want to hear what they don't do well. Yeah. What's important to me is, you know, going back to what you originally said around there's a perception piece here. It could be reality.

13:51It could not be. Who knows? You know, but there is a perception. And I think sometimes, again, because people perceive things differently and that's just the nature of it, And I am a big fan of being explicit around what it is that you're doing. So I know I experienced personally someone literally they said you're not a good listener. And I took that to heart because this was an individual whose experience in our dynamic that it was important to me that they experienced me as a listener. But I also recognize that when I listen to all the other data points, like there have been no other data points of individuals who have said that I'm not a good listener, but this individual experienced me that way.

14:31So it was worth it for me to change that experience. What I found I needed to do, so this was some self-coaching, for the sake of the relationship, not for the like, gosh darn it, I don't want to get this feedback again. I became explicit around when I'm listening and when I'm not listening. oh and so if they started talking i recognize that this is somebody who in order for them to feel listened to they needed undivided attention whereas a lot of other people don't right you could be multitasking and so what i started doing is i would say give me one second to finish what i'm doing so that i can fully listen to you or i would even say i want to be able to listen to you and I have to jump on a call in five minutes and I know I'm going to be distracted and I won't be able to listen to you in the way that I know you want to be listened to.

15:27So can we put that off till next time? I became very explicit around when I have the capacity to listen to them in the way that they need and when I don't. It created some ownership for them as well. It wasn't all on me, right? I really like that stepping forward and being explicit and the recognition that you have the ability to listen in different ways to different people. That's right. And that's really important. You know, when I teach listening, I borrowed a methodology from a colleague of mine, Collins Dobbs, who uses this for conflict and how to handle conflict. But he likes to talk about pace, space, and grace.

16:05And you need to slow things down. You need to slow the pace down. You need to give yourself space, physical space, to actually make sure you've cleared the deck, but also mental space. And then give yourself some grace and say, hey, I'm a busy person. I have a lot going on in this moment. And what I like that you add to that pace, space, grace framework is actually explicitly stating, here's what I am capable of doing at this moment to listen. And here's what I need from you. And just like communication is a two-way street, listening is a two-way street as well. And I like that you make that explicit.

16:38The mental space and physical space is a great way to think about it. We often think that we can't make that space, right? because of time. One of the things that I think is really important in terms of owning this, and I would also suggest this to this individual, is you can practice listening all the time by learning how to listen to yourself, right? And so can you create the mental space and physical space to actually listen to the one person who's talking all the time, which is you internally a lot, listen to that, cultivate that skill, it will make it a heck of a lot easier for you to then be able to listen to others as well.

17:20And that takes practice. We'll be back with more after the break.

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21:54How do I balance being honest about that while still projecting confident leadership? I love this question. I have a young person in my life who I mentor, and he said to me the other day, oh, my gosh, I finally realized that part of what I need to be able to do is speak confidently about something, even if I don't know it 100%. percent. Right. And this is a young adult individual. And clearly this challenge doesn't leave you because this is what this particular individual is posing to. So Matt, what would be your suggestions? How would you coach this person around this? Well, I love that you do mentoring.

22:38I do mentoring as well. It is so important. And I think young people really have a challenge when it comes to communication because they have not accumulated some of the experience, the bumps in the roads and the knowledge that folks of our vintage have. So it is truly an unprecedented time of ambiguity around what work looks like and what we need to do. Being confident, I always ask people to think about where the confidence is located. Confident in yourself, confident in your messaging, confident in your relationship that you have to the other person. So when people bring up issues of confidence, I first ask them to think about where that confidence or where that question of confidence is located.

23:21And while we might not have complete confidence in our understanding or our perception of where the future is, we can have confidence in how we speak about it and in our own abilities. And so I really challenge people to reflect on where can I tap into for the confidence I need in this moment. So if I am talking to my boss and they've asked me to think about a strategic plan or an initiative and there's a lot of unknowns, I can be confident in my ability to plan, confident in my ability to assess my plan. So lean into where you do have that confidence and where you don't acknowledge it. Say, you know, in this field or space that we're looking at, there are a lot of uncertainties and unknowns, But based on my experience and the things I've done, here is the approach I think we can take.

24:14So there are ways to come off as confident, even in situations where you don't know everything that you need to know. That's right. That's right. Yeah. You know, it's fascinating to me because I think many folks associate confidence with knowing everything. And that's not the case, right? Like, if we go back to, I forget who wrote the book where I'm getting this from, but confidence is really about self-efficacy. I just self-efficacy doesn't sound as smooth, but that's what it is. And self-efficacy is actually about resourcefulness. It's the understanding that there might be uncertainty, but you'll know how to get through the uncertainty.

24:53That's where the confidence comes from. Not that there's no uncertainty or that you know everything. It's that I'll be able to figure it out. So what you're saying around what is your locus of confidence? What are the things that you do know? Which is why one of my favorite responses, and I use this, you know, I have used it in the past, and I think it is, you tell me as the communication expert whether it's a good strategy. I am very clear about, well, here's what I do know, right? And here's what I don't know. And for the things I don't know, here's what I can find out. So I a lot of times coach clients or advise them when you don't know something, then the next best thing, next best alternative is to share how you're either going to figure it out, what the process is going to be.

25:42If you don't know the content, then share the process as to how you're going to get to the answer. And that is what you can be confident about, because that is something that you can control. Absolutely. I give the same advice. The only thing I would add to it is if you have a hunch or an inkling, I believe you should share that, but give the caveat that it is just a hunch or an inkling. So I might say, you know, I don't actually know how that's going to play out. I'm going to go research it by talking to these two individuals. I'll get back to you hopefully in 24 hours. My hunch is based on some things I've seen is this.

26:13And I think that's a complete response, one that's completely human and demonstrates willingness to investigate and to be tenacious. And I think those are all good signals to be sending. Yeah. What this individual did not bring up, but I'm going to bring it up, where I could see this becoming even a little bit more complex or a lot more complex is what is the audience expecting? Because on the one hand, you can have, let's say they're communicating this to senior level leaders in your organization. On the one hand, you can have these leaders who are like, we need an answer. We need certainty. And therefore, you can't come and tell us you don't know.

26:57Right. Like there is an expectation of certainty and that creates a challenge. And then on the other hand, your audience could be like, hey. We want optionality right now. You know, I actually am working with somebody right now who is also dealing with AI strategy and it's sort of the reverse of this individual. he comes in hot right like he's coming in with all the answers and almost like we this is exactly what we need to do that and people are like whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa like we are interpreting your passion as maybe being a bit uh what do you call it when they're not looking at the whole picture right my and they're not myopic exactly so sometimes having too much confidence which is actually arrogance.

27:47That's not a good thing either. So there's this balance of knowing your audience and calibrating, you know, how much certainty do you actually want to convey, depending on the level of readiness and appetite that your audience has for an answer. What do you think about that, Matt? I think that's very astute. You know, at the end of the day, most communication boils down to your audience and knowing them and understanding. And there's clearly a tension that you highlighted between what is expected is certainty or is just your perspective. And when you don't know, I think the single easiest thing to do is to ask, is to be very direct.

28:33You know, in this moment, are we trying to make a decision based on the facts as we know them, or are we just perspective gathering? That's right. And in getting the response, you can then calibrate and adjust how you approach it. You know, it always comes down to just if you don't know, just ask. What are the expectations? Think about your audience, inquire, listen well. These are the foundational principles. Yeah. OK, let's go on to the next one that we have. This question came from a listener and they said, I've always felt like I'm a pretty empathetic person and that extends to my leadership.

29:08The problem is I feel like I may be too forgiving and understanding with those around me, especially my staff. Sometimes I wonder if I let them off the hook too easily when they don't deliver. I don't want to lose my empathy, but at the same time, I don't want to be taken advantage of. Do you have any practical suggestions for me? So I lived this. When I was first promoted to a manager, I was so excited and I wanted everybody to like me and I wanted it to go well. and I over-indexed on empathy, on support, on concern, and I was truly taken advantage of and felt burned out and underappreciated.

29:49And I had a wonderful boss. She is still to this day the best boss I have ever had. And she pulled me aside and she said, the name of management, the name of this game is about respect. It's not about liking. And that to me was really, really powerful. And then she added, once you get respect, people are going to like you. As a young first-time manager, that was really profound. Now, it sounds like this person is experienced, and I love that they're reflective, right? They're seeing it as an empathy issue. They're not blaming other people for taking advantage, et cetera. I do think it's very important to set boundaries and to set expectations, to help your team understand this is what is expected of you.

30:30I am here to support you, but there are expectations that need to be met. Now, in that is important that the people have the tools, the skills, the ability, the time to do their work, and then that there is a dialogue, conversation, and feedback that goes along the way. So it again, as is the case in most communication issues, it's a relationship, and I have to set my expectations. I have to appreciate your willingness to conform and your challenges. and then together we negotiate in real time what this looks like. My concern is for this person is if they do come to the conclusion or hear what I say, and I'd love to hear what you say on this, and all of a sudden they say, I got to reduce the empathy a little bit or clamp down.

31:16How that switch happens and the perception of that switch, I'm very concerned with. So the messaging of how one is going to do that, I think is really important. And I think there's some pretty direct ways to do it without jeopardizing the relationship that you have with those folks who report to you. What are your thoughts on this circumstance? You know, look, I think this is a situation where I would have a question back to the individual with the outcome of expanding their perspective on what it looks like to manage in an empathetic way. And so here would be my question. I would say, OK, pick a situation where you feel like this has happened.

32:01OK. And where the person, somebody on your staff did not deliver as they were supposed to. Because to me, I would have a question about what happens when they don't deliver. Let's name that actually as in what way are you holding people accountable? Because when somebody doesn't meet a deliverable, there is an accountability aspect. Or if they do meet it, what's the accountability to what it is that you are assigning to them? So we have I want to be an empathetic manager and I also want to be somebody who holds people accountable. And so what I would ask them is help me understand what it would look like if you could do both.

32:42Right. If you could be both empathetic and hold the person accountable. And I would ask them that question anchored in a specific situation. So not conceptually, because I think when people start thinking about it conceptually, it becomes too theoretical. theoretical, I'd say, give me a situation where this is exactly what happened. Or you have one coming up where you've assigned something to somebody on your team. If they don't meet that deliverable, what will you do in a way that still upholds your empathy and holds them accountable? And here's why I would have them work through that, Matt. I think it's very important that people define things clearly.

33:23So empathy is different than likeability. Is it truly empathy that you want or is it something else? Empathy is different than respect. Let's be really clear about what we're talking about. Empathy, my understanding of it is empathy is the ability to understand where people are coming from or to be able to see things from their side of the fence. It doesn't mean that you need to be on their side of the fence. It just needs to be that you can understand it from their side. In no way does that mean that you let them off the hook if they don't do certain things. And yet that's the definition that this individual has.

33:57So if we can integrate the accountability piece and help them problem solve for how they have the capability to hold both, then I think that would start changing or adapting to the behavior that they actually want to have. In every conversation we have, Muriel, I am always in awe of your ability to dissect a circumstance and I see how and why you are so good at what you do. I think absolutely defining the terms, what these mean, grounding it in reality rather than theory, and then really challenging the person to think about what is it that they want. I might add to that to really just take a moment to appreciate the feelings that the person has, because those are very real and try to understand what those feelings mean and perhaps where they come from.

34:47But I think that's exactly the right place. And then ask the person, you know, so given this new insight or this new perspective on it, what are the most reasonable steps that you can take and how do you communicate this broadly to the team so that they understand you might be approaching their work differently? I like the communicating to the team and it makes me think I actually ran into a situation like this recently now that I'm thinking about it where I was like, oh, I want to maintain the relationship. And I could feel that I'm sort of letting things slide. I wonder sometimes if the tactic of decoupling the empathy and the accountability.

35:25Right. So have a conversation around preserving the relationship. And it might be, you know, like cultivate the relationship in one conversation. And then the other is. Be clear around what accountability looks like, you know, you can do both again in a way that preserves relationship, but maybe you don't have to solve for everything all at once, you know, which is what I did. And again, not suggesting that it would work for everyone, but as I'm thinking about it, I actually had a conversation about accountability with the individual. I picked up the phone a couple of days later when something happened and I called them and I said, hey, like, can we just have a conversation about how we're relating to each other?

36:03Because it's not sitting like I like you as a person, like we're friends. Right. So could we have a conversation around just how we are related? How are you feeling? And I'll share with you how I'm feeling. And it was sort of a clearing of the air that allowed for the accountability to happen in a more facile way. It reminds me of something that I learned a long, long time ago when I first got into this line of work. One of my first kind of facilitation projects, part of it was communicating as a manager. And there was a framework, which was as a manager with your team members, be hard on the problem and soft on the person.

36:44Right. And I think that's what we're getting at here. Absolutely. And I appreciate you sharing your own personal experience and having the fortitude to say, hey, let's talk about the relationship. I do think it's important also to reflect and reward when things go the way you want them to and acknowledge that and say, hey, this was a great example of where you delivered what was expected. And I'm curious if you felt that you were supported appropriately. One way to motivate the behavior you're looking for is to acknowledge when it works well. Yeah, we often forget the positive reinforcement, and yet it's so important.

37:19Yes. We'll be back with more after the break.

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38:44Get your free guide at netsuite.com slash Muriel. netsuite.com slash Muriel. netsuite.com slash Muriel. Let's move on to our last question. It's a big one, but we're going to try to get to it as quickly as we can. My company recently went through a major reorg, and I'm now operating in a much more matrixed organization. Many of the people I rely on day to day don't report to me, have different priorities and different demands on their time. I'm finding it harder to get work done because I can't rely on formal authority in the same way I used to. I know I need to build more influence, but it's really a challenge, especially when I'm crunched for time.

39:23How can I lead more effectively without the direct authority I used to have? This is very challenging and many of us find ourselves in circumstances, so I'll be very curious to hear your approach to this. for me it's all about relationship building and about understanding the dynamics of what's involved what do you have to offer what does the other person have to offer and how can you make the invitations that are necessary to build those relationships in these circumstances you know the way you approach much of your communication is guided by metaphors and analogies and the way you approach this matters a lot.

40:03I have a colleague at the business school. Her name's Michelle Gelfand, and she likes to say, mind your metaphors. You know, if I see this as a challenge or a battle, I'm going to approach it very differently than if I see this as a problem to be solved. And I think this is a problem to be solved. And if I want you to collaborate with me to help solve this problem, I need to invite you in, not make you defensive. I have to be thinking deeply about where are your areas of hesitation, concern, and resistance. How can I help you reduce some of that? And so leading again with inquiry, with what value you have to bring in these circumstances can be really, really helpful.

40:41And then pointing out to successes in the past where that collaboration has really helped both of you and having the other person think about what is possible, reflect on what could we do if we were to work together and how would we mutually benefit? How would the organization benefit? So while I understand being time crunched and under pressure, the investment you put in this upfront will pay dividends for a long time. So it's about understanding your audience, understanding what you bring, thinking about how you're framing this. And from there, you can begin to develop those relationships, which will allow you to exert the influence that you need.

41:19Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what I hear you saying, Matt, is almost like embrace that this is the way of things now, you know? And, you know, my experience has been when this shift, I've had a ton of clients who have had this happen where all of a sudden they're working in a matrix environment. And there's even something so loaded with that. As soon as they hear a matrix, they're like, oh my God, everything's going to be more difficult now. Rather than saying, oh, we're playing the same game, it's just on a different field, and I need to adapt my approach. And adapting my approach is also a recognition that my job description may have changed a little bit now, right?

41:56Whereas before it was about telling people what to do. Now it's about getting people to buy in on what to do. So we're still aiming for the goals, but the way that I need to go about it and what it requires of me is different, but it's still part of the job. This is why this thing around, well, I don't have time. What are you talking about? Like, it's part of your job. It's just, you know, you've got to figure out how to reallocate your time to be able to do this because it is a big component of your role at this point. I also find that when you are working without without as much formal authority, my question to this individual would be, first of all, I would say, oh, wow, what an opportunity you have.

42:44Because in essence, when you have the authority, you know, it's like having clear and TSA, you know, when you get to the airport, like everybody still has to go through security, but you just got the, you know, short circuited being able to get to the front a lot faster. So what this now means is you still need to get to your flight on time, but you got to work through the regular line. So how does that look different? Oh, I need to get to the airport sooner. I need to make sure that I'm on the right line. I mean, so, okay. So in what ways can you do that here? The reason why I asked them to problem solve for the current situation, Matt, is a lot of times people resist this, you know, I have to influence without authority because they see it as making it like they're not going to be able to do it, which is not the case.

43:30They have the capacity. It's just that they don't want to. And listen, I tell my clients all the time, sometimes I have to remind myself, that's adulting. That's part of leading. There are times when you're going to have to do things you might not want to do, but it doesn't mean you can't do it, right? So recognize that you do have the capacity. And by the way, there was a time when you had no authority. So don't act like you don't know how to do it. It just means that You have to tap into that level of resourcefulness to be able to do it under these circumstances. And it's uncomfortable, right?

44:01Because it's new and it's different. And I think it's reasonable to acknowledge that, but we got to do it and move forward on it. Yeah, it's the role. That's right. That's right. And more change will come. And getting comfortable at that type of agility, I think, will help everybody. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, good stuff. always a pleasure to chat with you. Absolutely. Tell the people where they can find you, Matt. First and foremost, thank you. It is always a true pleasure to chat with you. And I learned so much. So thank you. This was fantastic. Please, if you want to learn more, Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast, great place to go.

44:42Check out the book, Think Faster, Talk Smarter. You can definitely check out the two episodes Mural and I have done on the show. Lots of good knowledge. And you've coached me both times on issues I was dealing with and both have resulted in positive outcomes. So thank you so much for the opportunity and thank you for sharing your wisdom. No, thank you, Matt. I'm sure that I will have you back on here. We'll figure out another way. And in the meantime, we will see each other on the Peloton leaderboard. You're on the board. I'm just trying to stay, not pass out, but thank you. All right, y 'all, we will see you next time with another episode of Coaching Real Leaders.

45:20And when that one drops, it'll be another coaching session. If you want to unpack the episodes from Coaching Real Leaders, you can join me at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com, where I host live discussions about coaching sessions you hear on this podcast. And I also answer questions just like I do here, but you can ask them directly of me. And you can also follow me on LinkedIn at Muriel Mignon Wilkins, on Instagram at Coach Muriel Wilkins. A reminder that if you love these coaching conversations, it would mean the world to me if you could head over to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts so that you can subscribe to the show.

46:00And please, please, please leave a five-star review. Thank you to my producer, Mary Du, sound editor, Nick Kringko, music composer Brian Campbell, and my chief of staff, Emily Sofa. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations, and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys. I'm Uriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.