Lending a Hand ft. Kevin Kenerson | Coffeez for Closers with Joe Shalaby Ep. 36

0:28What's up everybody? and a person that has been an inspiration to myself personally. Please welcome the president and CEO of Lending Hand Mortgage, Mr. Kevin Kennerson. What's up, Joe? How are you, brother? Good to see you. Thanks for having me. Absolutely, absolutely. And I know we were talking yesterday, you were a little nervous about doing a discussion for 45 minutes. I'm like, bro, it's just a conversation for a little bit. But, you know, don't be intimidated. No big deal. Just thousands of people watching and, you know. No big deal. No, I mean, listen, I don't know if I've ever had a deep conversation or conversations for like 45 minutes, except with you, Joe.

1:13Yeah, exactly. And your wife. Yeah, and my wife, right. So it's an honor to have you here, and thanks for coming on. So I like to start every show off with an icebreaker, and that is, how do you, Kevin, start your morning? What is your morning routine every single day? Well, I have chickens. So it starts with, I look at my, of course, Cassie, she wakes me up. So she's like, okay, because I'm naturally a late sleeper. I used to be a late sleeper, but now I get up early because I have chickens. So yeah, I got chickens. You got a rooster too? I have roosters. I have like, gosh, I had a lot more roosters, but they became pests.

1:52So I got rid of some of them. but right now I've got like five roosters. So they do, you know, they do all the hollering and everything, but it's, it's cool. So I get up in the morning, I let the chickens out. I spend way too much time with the chickens. So Cassie's like, you need to come back inside. You got to deal with the kids. You got to get them ready for school. So, but I could spend all day outside watching the chickens and people say, well, you know what? Chickens are just dumb, but actually they do talk to each other. So there's a lot more to chickens than most people realize. Just like bees.

2:23Yeah, just like bees. Actually, I want to get into bees, too. This is your exit strategy here. It's like bees and chickens. Yeah, it's my exit strategy. But, no, seriously, I could spend hours watching the chickens. So I do the chicken thing. Right now I'm not working out. I messed up my arm. So maybe it's just an excuse, but I need to get back at it. So then I get the kids ready for school. we get them off and then hit the office how long you had an injury uh you know it's been like so i first had a shoulder injury i was lifting way too heavy i thought i was a young buck but i'm not a young buck and then i hurt my uh bicep so it's probably been like a year and a half like a year and a half oh man i'm sorry to hear that yeah it was a tear i you know what i don't know if the bicep is a tear it it feels like a tear but never really checked it out yeah you just said that it's I'm hurt.

3:20I'm not going to work. I can't do this. Yeah. Well, God restore you quickly, man. I'm sorry to hear that. I know that it was part of your regimen. Yeah, it was. We talked about it before. You used to do it like five times a week. Yeah, absolutely. All right, well, Kevin, how did you get started in the business, the mortgage business? And why did you choose mortgage? Well, you know, Cassie, my wife, when we got married before this, like we dated six years beforehand. And like, I love numbers. Like I always, I always loved numbers, but her father was a real estate agent and I like numbers. I don't know if you remember Carlton Sheets, like he was a real estate investor.

4:02Okay. This is like back in the nineties. So he's a real estate investor. I'm like, Oh my goodness. I love this. I think I could probably do some investing. So Cassie's father was a real estate agent. I was like, okay, well maybe this relationship, I can learn something from him too. and through college though you know I wanted to graduate quickly so I graduated in three years instead of four I was like what can I do to push myself to get to get finished well we got finished I became an accountant after I graduated for it was a staff accountant position for a hospital and it's like man I don't I don't really like this this isn't something that I want to do I was 21 years old and it was just monotonous it was like the same thing over and over again we we balanced accounts.

4:46Then at the end of the month, we, we had the end of the month and it was just like, okay, I was, I was making maybe 30 ,000 a year, maybe a little bit more, but it's about 30 ,000 a year. And it was just the same thing over and over again. I was like, I need more interaction. I'm a type D, but a type type I personality. So I was like, this isn't for me. And my cousin, Amy, she was in the business too. So I was like in real estate, um, uh, originator. And I was like, you know what, maybe that's something that I could do. So in 2003, I got into business. And now you just cold calling leads or what were you doing?

5:21No, you know what? I didn't really, I didn't know that you could cold call. All I, all I did is I went after real estate agents. So you've never done anything other than real estate agents your whole career. That's it. That's it. Now you dominate that space. Yeah. So I was like, I beat the streets. I walked the streets. It was just old school. I was like, all right, let me come say hi to you, shake hands, kind of tell you what I did. Of course, I didn't really know exactly what I did, you know, at the time. I was just like walking the streets and set up as many appointments as I could. And at that time, I was like, okay, I can't fail because I'm putting Cassie, you know, Cassie was working a little bit, but she was finishing college too.

5:58So I was like, you know, there's no option but to succeed. So just like a no fail attitude and just over and over again. And, you know, it was just something I loved immediately. It was a little stressful. Like When you get in the business, you don't know how to deal with the stress of this business, especially if you're doing any type of volume. At first, being young, there were times I cried. I was like, I don't know what to do. This is stressful. It could be, especially because the path that you took was one where it was relationship building. It was. There was no real certainty. You were still not married at the time.

6:42you're still dating your wife? No, we got married. So we got married in 2002. So I graduated 2002. I was a staff accountant immediately. Actually, I started as a staff accountant before we got married, but I knew when we were getting married, which was June 9th. So I graduated in May. We got married in June, but I'd already started my position as a staff accountant. So you left the certainty of a W-2 job for the absolute uncertainty of a relationship-building loan officer position? Why did you do that? You know what? I don't think it didn't scare me. Like, being commissioned didn't scare me because I knew that we could be successful.

7:26Like, I just knew. I was like, we're going to be successful. We'll do it. Was there someone who had walked the path before you that you knew was successful in the mortgage space? Amy, my cousin, was the only one. Yeah, she was the only one. I didn't even know what her originator was back in college. And then we knew that she was doing well. So like, well, I can do it too. Nice, okay. So then when did you start your entrepreneurial journey when you wanted to start your own company? What year was that? You know what? I was probably 12 the very first time that I knew that I was going to own a company.

7:58My dad, he owned a company. He was a commercial artist. And I was like, you know what? this is exactly what I want to do. I want to own a company. I want to, you know, I think I said I want to be a millionaire. Of course, at the time, I was like, obviously, it doesn't really matter now. But at the time, I was like, I'm going to be a millionaire, and I want to run a company. And that was at a very young age. You didn't know that millionaires would be middle class now, huh? Right. They're middle class. Exactly right. Running off budgets. Because now the kids are like, I want to be a billionaire.

8:27Yeah, right. Now it's a billionaire. Yeah, I didn't even know the word billionaire up until I was like 20. Right. Yeah. So no, at a young age, I was like, this is what I want to do. Actually, at first I wanted to be, um, well, so I wanted to be a cardiologist and that was probably like I was 10. And then I wanted to be an obstetrician because I love babies. My sister, she was, she worked on the OB floor. And then I was like, ah, they got it. They've got to go to school way too long. They've got to be there for like 12, 12 years. And I was like, I just don't have that time. So it's like probably owning a business is what I want to do.

9:03Yeah, there's a, so, you know, as parents, we both have four kids. It's like, I'd rather have my kids go to med school. Still, I'm convinced, you know, because all my kids, in my culture, everybody's a doctor, you know, like we just had an outing and every single person was a specialized doctor. They're all like dermatologists or neurosurgeons or radiologists or eye surgeons. And for me and you, being an entrepreneur, it's like in our blood, but, you know, the path of least resistance, like, is kind of like going that stable route, like, which is, you know, something I think about for the kids all the time.

9:39Do we want them to go down the path that we went, that uncertainty, or do we want them to go, like, down this, like, straight path, you know? Yeah, you know, and I talk to the kids all the time, and I, you know, talk to Cassidy, it's like, I don't necessarily have to have the kids go to college, just because I think that I know that the path that we took, if you're a hard worker, you can accomplish a lot. And really, if you're going to be a trade, such like doctors, obviously, it's not really considered a trade, but you have to have the schooling. It's a trade with a lot of school. Yeah, it is exactly right.

10:13Because handymen make like$80 an hour now. Yeah, so I'm like, okay, if you're going to be a trade, like HVAC, electrician, journeyman, whatever it is, yeah, go get your schooling for that. And I do think college does prep you for it, and it also matures you a little bit more if you are willing to really absorb everything. But I told the kids, I said, I don't necessarily have to have you go to college. Some parents are like, you have to go to college. This is the only option that you have. But I'm in the mindset now, being on the path that we've been in, I think that it did make us a better maybe CEO and be able to operate our company better.

10:51but you know I don't I don't know if everyone has to go to college. Well now sadly all the kids that go to college they just run all their work through ChatGPT so they're really not going to college. They're just having AI go to college for them and they're just showing up. Yeah. So it is totally a different dynamic than the traditional college that we went to because we just had Google at best. When did you graduate college? I graduated in 2001. Okay, yeah, it was 2002. I remember in my freshman year in high school, I was like, what is the internet? That was like 94, 95. Yeah. I'd never gotten on the internet prior to that time, really.

11:35Yeah, I knew about the internet earlier than that. Well, you lived in California. I lived in Tennessee. Yeah, yeah. You're always four years behind. Four years behind.

11:45um so uh so what do you think inspired you to become an entrepreneur i think i think really it was probably my father yeah because you know i do of course i was young as to seven and my my mom she didn't work until like i was five like she raised all the kids and then once i was I was born I like my grandmother she took care of me like while my mom went to school and obviously when she worked but I think like like my father he did inspire me to uh to step out like do a little bit more be an entrepreneur maybe it runs in the blood I don't know but I would go into work with him all the time and yeah I just I was proud of him so I think that I just I saw him do it I was like okay this is cool I like it Now, you have such crazy work ethic, right?

12:38We were talking about it earlier. How are you going to instill that same work ethic that you have and give that to your children? That's tough, Joe. I'm asking for a friend. Yeah. So you know what? It's funny. I thought some of my sons would do a little bit differently. I was worried about one child maybe not progressing in school as much as the others, but that one son now, he's like progressed a whole lot and the other one, he's brilliant, he's a brilliant kid, but no, he's taking a step back, you know, like in some things. So I'm like, you know what, I don't really know, but what we do is we try to push them as much as we possibly can, like giving 100 % in everything that we do.

13:20And that's one of the things that we do is like we give them chores, we give them responsibilities, but kids are kids and they're, you know, obviously they don't necessarily want to do as much as we would like for them to do sometimes, but we do. It's like, if you're going to do something, do it 100%. Otherwise, it's not worth doing. And I think that's part of it. It's like, you have to show up each and every day. You've got to be there for your team. Whatever it is, you've got to be the best team member. And so we have a lot of our kids, they play sports. And, you know, sometimes, though, it's like, they can do really well.

13:49They can push really hard. But sometimes when you see them, like, how they act on the field that's like okay they pick up a kid you know they cheer their their team members on that's like that gives you the most pride it's like that type of stuff but we do we push the kids to to give everything that they've got and you know we'll see it's hard it's hard to say right now yeah no it is and I know it's a tough question and it's something that you know I want and we all want it as parents for our kids just to maintain that same level of grit and that same mindset because we talked about this before, you and I, not on a podcast, about like, you know, we grew up poor, right?

14:31Yeah. So there was like no choice. Is there a feast or is there famine? You know, like, so I chose to feast, so I had to grind for it. Our kids don't have to grind that hard. Yeah. And. Because I remember at like the age of 12, like, of course, when I was younger, like in elementary school, I was selling stuff. I was like selling little debbies out of my lunch. I was making bracelets and at that you know like I had an entrepreneurial spirit at the time and then I had jobs like in the neighborhoods like I would go across the um our town to do hedges and I would like cutting hedges and doing landscaping and things and then in the neighborhood I was cutting grass and stuff at a very young age and you know I it it gave me like I enjoyed it like I like pushing myself.

15:14It created that entrepreneurial spirit. My wife makes fun of me because I always say oh that was one of my first jobs it was like Chuck E. Cheese and then I was like an ice cream scooper at thrifties and it was like uh some some i had like four jobs by the time i was 15 but fired from all of them but fired from them yeah you know oh yeah thrifties i was chucky at you know i was a i was a traveling uh like power ranger you know type guy that would show up to birthday parties that makes sense i got that through my theater class no i didn't get fired from that one i think i got fired from thrifties though yeah yeah i think i was giving away ice cream.

15:50But you have a good heart. Yeah. So he's a nice guy. I didn't have any money. I was 15. I think I was 14. I had that job. Your parents would be proud of you for giving away ice cream. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. They weren't proud that I lost my job. It's$4 and 25 cents an hour. Yeah. Isn't that crazy how those wages. When I first started, my first job was a laundry. Like we folded laundry. It was like$3.55 an hour. Yeah, I know. It's like, I don't think I can get the kids to do anything for that. No. It's like it takes a 20 for them to rub your feet. My wife, she'll be like, will you scratch my head, rub my feet, and literally you'd have to give them a 20 to make them do it.

16:39Actually, my daughter, she'll do it for free, but the other ones, yeah. God bless the girls. Yeah, they're so much nicer than the boys. They are. The boys are like, 200 bucks. Yeah, they're working deals. Daughter will do it. She's just so sweet. Yeah. So you've managed to really navigate really tumultuous and tough times, a lot of adversity. What do you think has been the source or the mindset you've had to have to overcome these tough times, especially the last couple of years? I think just like we stay really positive, my wife and I. Like we just stay really positive. and it's like really if you if you're positive you can accomplish so much and we're like too small to really fail like i think it's just been having a positive attitude and you know like seeing stuff like what we went through growing up we can do this like it's it's not an issue and actually through the harder times like the last housing crisis that's when we did the best and like this last couple years we've done the best and it's just like you've been growing in the last couple years.

17:46Just pushing yourself like, okay, let's not stay complacent. Let's evolve. Let's get better. And I think really we do, like you hear it so much, but we do embrace the challenge. It's like, I want to do more. I want, like, we're going to do this. We're going to make it through this. We're going to, we're going to thrive through the, through the downturn. And that's exactly what we've done. And it was even the last time, like through 2008, 2009, through 12, it's like, okay, we, we did really well. And so many people, they didn't do well, but it was just because we were positive and we're like this is this is something that we can do let's reinvent ourselves in a way like we're going to create new techniques let's let's just create a drive that no one else can match and show up each and every day like there was times like unfortunately I don't remember my daughter as a baby that's the sad part about it because we were working so much it was like we would get up at six o 'clock in the morning go to bed at two o 'clock at night and it was like that for like two years.

18:46So just working hard. Yeah. You know, one thing I noticed is you have some great talent here visiting with you. How are you fostering talent at Lending Hand? How do you continue to foster talent there? Yeah, you know, with talent, you know, you can show them the way and you can continue to lift them up and you hope that they would follow like some of the things that like you do that I do. And when they do, it makes you really proud and like obviously committing them on that success as well.

19:23Now, the mortgage landscape has changed significantly over the last couple of years. What do you foresee on the horizon? Because you're on a different, you do business totally different than most mortgage companies. You know, you've been purchase driven the entire time. You've never been refi-centric, like 99.9 % of loan officers. And then obviously when people had to transition from like a refi mortgage company to a purchase mortgage company, they kind of, you know, now you had competition, which you didn't even have competition. But what do you foresee on the horizon in the next year in the mortgage landscape currently?

19:58I think this business is going to continue to be a relationship business. That's the one thing, because when you look at mortgages, it's still in the top three of the most stressful things that someone's going to deal with because most people, you know, it's a huge investment. Like someone, you know, like their spouse dying, that's the most stressful thing. You know, a divorce is the second and then purchasing a home is the third most stressful thing. So I think that there's going to be some really good automations that will continue to take place. It'll continue to evolve the mortgage business.

20:28And I think that we're going to become more and more efficient. but AI is definitely going to have a huge part in making our jobs probably a little bit easier, but it'll also take away some jobs at the same time. But I think ultimately if we're going to continue to operate in the purchase business in that segment, yes, we're going to continue to gather those leads a little bit easier with some of the AI and some of those things, but I don't think there's really going to have to be, there's not going to be a whole lot of change in the relationship side of things because people are people, and this is a people business.

21:01You've done a great job fostering those relationships with people. Yeah. Now, given all your success over the last couple decades, how do you, even though you don't need to now, but how do you continue to wake up every single morning with that same motivation? You know what? I live in a state of gratitude. It's always, man, I'm thankful to be here. I'm thankful to be able to see I'm thankful to be able to walk and run and all these things to taste food and it's like I think if you just stay in a state of gratitude it makes things and life a lot easier it really does and that's just where I try to stay it's like okay you know what I'm kind of tired this morning but let's push it let's get it let's push it up a notch it's one of the things I love about you Kevin it's like you've always been one of the most sincere kind guys like kind humble spirit that's always just got a smile on his face.

21:57You know, it's like nothing's going to let you down. No market adversity, no drama, no gossip. Nothing, like, phases you. And that's the reason, I think, which we can attribute direct correlation to your success. Yeah, I think, yeah, staying positive, that's huge. And just keeping a smile on your face. I wish people could all just embrace that. We just replay this. We're going to replay this back for everybody to hear that. Now, right now, do you think that lending hand is taking a lot of risks, big risks, or are you guys staying risk adverse? I think we're kind of staying in the middle a little bit.

22:37Yes, we're exposing ourselves a little bit more, but I think it's all like the risks that are not too risky. We can continue to grow. There's a lot more room for us to grow, and that's what I'm excited about. like we're putting ourselves in a really good position uh that if someone will just like i'm stepping out of the business just a little bit more like not on the origination side of things like i still originate um as well but we've built a really good team out uh but we're doing things that i think in our business that other companies aren't doing and while others are taking notice of it i don't think it's as easy sometimes just to replicate because it does take so much personal time.

23:20Like it's scalable, yes it's scalable, but you still have to have the people that are willing to do it. You know, like if they're not willing to have these conversations and have the heart to do, have the conversations that we're having and helping the way that we help, you can scale it in a way, but you can't, you know, it's difficult still to do, complete our process. So, I don't know, I think the risk though, we could definitely step it up a little bit and I'm excited to see what the the next couple of years hold for us. And do you think, like, so are you going to always stay relationship purchase driven?

23:55Are you going to add any more variations of verticals, you know, refi, HELOCs, investment properties, DSCR? Are you just honed in and just dominating purchase? And that's great. That's worked well for you. I just want to know if you're planning to expand on other verticals. And that's part of it is expanding in other sections. while we do love the relationship side of things we still want that's the that's the aspect that we want to continue to grow in like i have friends that you know we all know them they only do refinance business and they would love to get into purchase business they just don't know how they just don't know how and i'm on the other side i think i could probably get into the refinance business but i don't know how per se um i can get into it refis are just so much easier to get into too, because it's a data buy, but then you have to have all the systems to kind of foster that.

24:49Your loan officers who are so used to shaking hands would have to pivot to phone sales, and that's a totally different play as well. Yeah, no, that's absolutely true, but right now we've stepped into the investment side of things. We've stepped into the DSCR. We just don't advertise it as much as we should. We've really stepped up our advertising here. And actually, we're beginning to hire more advertising and more marketing than we are sales support. And obviously, now that you have the marketing, then you've got to obviously hire more of the sales support. So that's kind of in the phase that we're in because we've built out the marketing so much.

25:24Now we're in trouble because we have so much business coming in the door. It's like, okay, we've got to continue to address this concern. in it, but I also have my standards of who we hire is also pretty high, and we want to make sure that we vet the right people, because sometimes you get the wrong person, and they're a little more difficult to kick them out the door. When you say standards being high, let's talk about that. What kind of standards are you setting for your employees that you're hiring? I think it's just the expectations. My expectations are pretty high. I want things done a certain way.

26:01You know, like I want communication back in 15 minutes. I want emails back in, you know, like 30 minutes. I want these certain things done in a particular way. And I think, so right now when we hire people, I let people know, and those prospects, this is the way that what we expect is something that you think that you could handle. And so I think we're doing a better job setting the right expectations when we hire because I do expect a little bit more. I think, you know, and it's like, well, why do you do what you do? I was like, well, if we didn't, maybe we wouldn't be as successful as we are because we have high standards.

26:42Love that. Now, what do you think is the future for Lending Hand? More states, more loan officers, more products? Yeah, we've been in slow. So we've been open since 2005, and we've definitely grown, but we haven't grown. We've grown comfortably. And every time I come to, like, a mastermind, every time I go to UWM, it's like, man, we could do so much more. We have an amazing product. We have amazing people. We've got amazing service. All we've got to do now that we've scaled to where we are, all we've got to do is add people. And so, you know, Cassie and I, we've talked. It's time. So we're going to continue to grow in additional states and then really pull in a lot more retail originators to the team just because I think we've got a really good thing and we're ready.