An officer in The Internal Troops of the Soviet Ministry of Internal Affairs (448)

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0:50There was a hostage crisis in one of the prisons, and there were two police officers who were taken as hostages. And when this platoon arrived on the scene, Basically it was very tense and somebody opened fire and then everybody opened fire.

1:34traveling from Lefiv to Lithuania to begin officer training in communications and field operations. The training program brought together recruits from across the Soviet Union. Beyond communications, these troops had a wide range of responsibilities from guarding strategic facilities to responding to hostage crises and public disturbances. This is a rare opportunity to hear about the realities of military service inside the Soviet security structure. I'm delighted to welcome Ihor to our Cold War conversation. And then they asked me, so, comrade, would you like to serve in Soviet military for two years?

2:15It's a great job, you'll be an officer, you'll get good paycheck. And I learned before that you cannot say no because you will go anyway, but they will send you not the most favorable place. and I said it will be an honor I like to serve and the guy said okay here so just go back to your HR department and they will take care of everything and each HR department had what they call first section and first section was usually HR person but who was liasoning with military and they were usually retired army officers and they walked to HR. They said, oh, it's great. Congratulations. And you will see what real life looks like.

3:08You will be defending your country. And I pretty much in no time, I got everything. I got all my papers from work. And three days later, I was on basically pack my things. They told you, take all necessity, change your clothes because when you arrive, you will get military uniform and everything else. And I was on the train from Lviv to Vilnius, Lithuania, because the training facility where my papers were to arrive to Shaolai, which is a smaller town outside of Vilnius, Lithuania. And this is where training started. And being an officer in the Red Army must come with privileges than being in the ranks, because I hear quite a few horror stories about what it was like to be a conscript in the ranks.

4:11yes being an officer it comes with privileges and I have to tell you basically there was financial motivation because my paycheck was double from what I was making when I was engineer prior to military so hypothetically I will throw numbers so I was making salary 115 rubles I became an officer it was like 250 150 rubles. And plus, when it was hard to find better quality shoes or something important, like shoes from Finland or from even Poland or from Czech Republic, it was hard to find at regular store. So you could go there and you can buy like this, like Finnish, all this like clothes from Yugoslavia, which was considered to be much higher quality.

5:09And what were you being trained in in Lithuania? So it basically was more regular training, this marches like firing range, but it was also like making more professional on radio equipment and we use shortwave radio stations. And it's not just shortwave radio station, Basically, it was like four or five blocks. It was stationary radio transmitter and receivers. So we'll be trained to set up antennas because for sure, the radio depends on bandwidth. You set up different antennas, and you secure them with wires 100 degrees, and you raise them to a certain height. And there were also like radio relay stations, which I forgot all this specific of technology, but you can penetrate into telephone network.

6:10So for example, I can be sitting on this radio station and I can get into telephone network and I can call my parents landline or my girlfriend landline or something else. So it was more basically how to operate because in Soviet Army, the one thing, I guess that's a good thing, the one thing was if you're commanding officers before you show, soldiers have to do that. You need to do it yourself. So when we would go to shooting range, the first one will be regiment commander. He will shoot, he will walk away, and then everybody else will be shooting. and what was interesting when we were in Shaulia it was like melting pot I met a few colleagues from my university that also got drafted there were like some guys from present Chechnya from Georgia so like from all different locations so we trained there together for three months and then after that, everybody got their final designation papers like to what unit arrived.

7:33And my papers were for Latvia, for Riga, and my regiment number was 7458. And this is actually when maybe I will bring up the difference of troops of Minister of Interiors. So the regular army basically is under Minister of Defense. Troops of Minister of Interior, they report to Minister of Interior. And our main function was basically everything inside of the country, public disturbances, anti-terrorism, guarding of strategic objects, like for example, nuclear power plants in Soviet Union were guarded by troops of interior. You also guard the Supreme Court, like strategic bridges, and yeah, anti-terrorism was another part of it, because this was time when even in Soviet Union they were hijacking, they were hostage takers like in prison or whatever, so it's, so it was a combination of all, but I would say when I arrived, like remaining training was like regular infantry unit.

9:02We were like, I guess it would be called motorized regiment because we have armored personal carriers and all this other equipment. There were no money to spur for, because the Cold War was in there even then because our main base was in the city, in Riga. But we also have like a big bunk or dugout in the forest, probably 50 miles like outside of Riga in the woods. And it was state of the art. I remember I was surprised because when we had like training and we had different stage of readiness alerts, So we would have to load everything on them, just on the trucks or just radio station. We have stationary radio communication center, but everything was also mounting on trucks.

9:57So we would drive to this, what they call, backup command center, and you will open this huge steel doors that will be operated by four electric engines. We have our own diesel. We have a few high-capacity diesel generators. We will start, the light will be on the ground, and we have this huge antenna field. So everything was pretty much designed so you can conduct communication with troops. And our regiment was part of divisions. The headquarter division was based in Vilnius, and we had one regiment in Riga, Latvia. Another one was in Tallinn, Estonia. And yeah, the third one was also in Vilnius.

10:50And we also had what they call police battalions because another function was to help with patrolling cities because there were local police departments, But Soviet school of thought was basically sometimes local police department can be corrupted. They will not get involved into somebody where they know somebody because they have local connections. So why don't we use army to patrol? So the troop of interior, so police battalions, they will have set of army uniform and set of police uniform. And sometimes you just patrol the city. It was basically just you would look for any public disturbance like bar fights.

11:40Because the crime during Soviet Union time, how would I say, was pretty low because the punishment was very hard. If you get arrested, you will not get a lawyer until you go to the court.

12:02so within your role were you doing some of that patrolling as well or were you purely focused on the radio communications i was purely focused on radio communication but sometimes they would do it it was multifunctional for example another role of troop of minister of interiors was to guard like prisons from exterior and sometimes there was once in a while there was a hostage crisis in jail and somebody broke out of jail so we all basically had like plain clothes and we all kind of look on search mission basically we are spread around the city. Once in a while yeah and once in a while we're doing patrolling on, you're looking for somebody who escaped.

12:53So it was like multifunctional role. But my primary focus was radio communication. So you're facilitating the radio communication with the Ministry of Interior Troops in Lithuania and further afield as part of your role? yeah so it's basically we facility with the field when let's say we'll be training the scientists we also facilitate communication with moscow with with minister of interiors and because we we had put a like state-of-art radio communication center so some sometimes will get encrypted radiograms that are supposed to be delivered to local KGB office because they didn't have extensive communication capabilities.

13:50And then the rule was, because I was commanding officer, I would have to hand delivery. So it was encrypted. So I will take it with me, and you'll see. You have to take side arms because it's a secret document. And I will drive to KGB office in Riga and just hand deliver to duty officers and go from there. And at that time, was there indications of the Baltic independence movements starting? No, actually, it's a Baltic independence movement. It was on there, but Polish solidarities was in place already. So we all have a lot of troops in Baltic countries getting ready in case something happened in Poland to go into Poland.

14:49If the Warsaw Pact had invaded West Germany, was there a role for your troops with you in the rear yeah it probably would not be front but it would be rear because because usually our function would be there will be let's say first troop that will go to innovate and then somebody will need to stay and control the area so I would control other role will be probably to maintain whatever they call public or in taking over territory and I have to tell you I noticed even in when we in Latvia the population didn't like us it was slightly different being in the city because Riga is like very cosmopolitan but if you go to countryside there was not cheering or just bringing your loaf of bread and fresh milk.

15:53People just look at you and didn't say anything. They'd effectively been occupied since 1940 by the Soviet Union. They'd been independent prior to then. They still considered themselves under occupation. Oh, yeah, absolutely, yeah. And did you enjoy the role? Did you find it interesting and stimulating? Yes, how would I say? I enjoy technical aspect for it because it was still before digital. Basically, you will have to change frequency based on atmospheric front moving and you go to different frequency. You will get chance to see a lot. I met a lot of people. I was still, it was my young day, you know, and we were in Riga, which was like, I have to tell you, during Soviet time, it was happening in place, like nightclubs.

16:51I never seen nightclub before in my life. When I got to Riga, there were nightclubs even in mid-'80s, which technically was no-no in the rest of Soviet Union, but Baltic republics, to some extent, had slightly, I guess it's probably based on local officials because they were not as tight as the rest of the country. You get paid well. What I realized is that in the army, your life doesn't belong to you. You cannot say it's 6 o 'clock, I have to go home. If everything is fine, you can go home at 6. If something is there, you can stay there 2 or 3 days. with the sophisticated radio equipment you had there did you listen to western music or anything like that well yes we yeah just we if you listen to music you know that the funny thing was because we had secure encrypted communication you flip the switch i will be calling my just like girlfriends back in the view or whatever no just you call to somebody and you can chat openly without worrying that everybody will be listening to it.

18:06So going back to question, was there an interesting moment? To some extent, you get this charge of adrenaline. You get called at night, basically, and it was before cell phone and pagers, so the car will be waiting outside your apartment. you feel that you are important because when we had alert basically i i was only the one who has key to like encryption equipment and you have to transport encryption equipment you have to put it on the truck you have to secure and mount it you felt that it's not that i enjoyed the regime whatever but the function you felt that you're doing something important one of the things you You mentioned as one of the roles of the Ministry of Interior troops was to deal with civilian unrest.

19:00Potentially, you may have to open fire on civilians in your role. Did you ever think about that or the implications of that and what you do in that situation? We actually, between us, because there were like my colleagues' officers, between us, we thought that it would never come to this point because, let's see, how do I say it? I have to tell you, even it was Soviet propaganda, they were like Russian officers. They had very high moral conduct and high ethic. So we actually thought that it will never happen. We maybe were too optimistic because and few of them, few of us said basically there is such a thing as legal or an illegal or an innocent.

20:07I would be turning like just like I wouldn't be open for against own people. So, and frankly, to some extent, it was never brought to our attention, if it makes sense, because there were certain things that were kept. For example, each regiment, we basically had this regular regiment, but we have one platoon, which was, they call it Special Ops Platoon, which basically were dedicated there. So most of even the constructions in this platoon were basically active in sports. They were like snipers. They were like marksmen. So each regiment had 30 or 40, basically, pretty much, as you can call it, very high-trained soldiers.

20:58I wouldn't say it's not equivalent, no, but it was almost as close to special ops as it could be. So there were like few cases where actually nobody else knew about it, but there was hostage crisis in one of the prison. And there were two police officers who were taken as hostages. And when this platoon arrived on this scene, basically it was very tense and somebody opened fire and then everybody opened fire. So end of the story, one police officer got killed in crossfire. And then there was like investigation because, you know, how it happened. So there were certain things that were only certain people in the regiment would be handling that, if it makes sense.

21:54Were there any particularly memorable situations you were involved in your role in the Ministry of Interior Troops? And anything that we've not already discussed that really stick in your mind? No, you see, it's the other thing which was nice, and it's maybe a silly thing to say, but we had access to all this. Let's say Riga has put a good ice hockey team and there were like soccer matches. And one of the things that we did, we also handled public, kind of what they call public or in safety at big events, at concert and hockey games. I got a chance to see quite a few games and concerts because we were part of entourage, basically.

22:52You basically were sitting in first two rows, so army will be sitting, so nobody will jump over the fence. Great. Sounds like a good job. Where do I sign up for that part of it? How long were you in the Soviet Army for? When did you leave? So I started in 1983, and it was two years, and I left in 1985. And then I got my regiment commander call me and offer me and try to convince me to sign for remaining of the service. But then the thing was, you commit pretty much to the next 23 years of your life. So I... Yeah, yeah. So you're not going to do that, are you? Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile.

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24:43when you leave the ministry of interior what's your next role actually it was interesting so i left military and one of my thing was basically and it's either go back to like engineering job which basically will be significant downgrade in your pay because you would have to go back to half of pay you were made in the army. And I was thinking about, for a brief moment, about police forces. Because usually after service, if Minister of Interior, basically it's easier to get into police forces. And I thought about technical role in police forces because even big police departments, they have the same.

25:33They have radio communications, they have something else. but then so I had an interview and they said yes but you have to go through every single rotation why don't you start from homicide and then and so I went to talk to like head of homicide bureau and see they look at me and see they're just are you crazy forget about weekends and holidays because most people can get killed on weekends and holidays so he will not have that so go think about it and tell me next day if you still want to do it and next day i call him i said thank you i think i will pass on it so what do you end up doing then yes so i end up doing that i went back to basically electrical engineering job i just i work for like large like power company we built and design power station substation i travel a lot pretty much across poland we built power plan in former yugoslavia in surrey so pretty much in engineering job we build power plans design it implement different solutions so i i really like it because you can see something that you build with your hand so it sounds like you're visiting places like Poland and Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia.

27:05So you're seeing what life is like in other countries. That must open your eyes to how bad the Soviet Union is. Oh, yes, absolutely. Now, I have to tell with all honesty, until you don't see it, you think it's OK. No, because we went to school, just you spend time in some. I went to university. First, we have subsidized university chem on the Black Sea. You have access to certain things, but until you see how your life can be, it's very hard to imagine. When you were in Yugoslavia, did you ever think the Italian border's not that far away? Should I try and cross it? No, actually, how would I say it?

27:58And my parents were back there, so then, frankly, my parents would be punished. So this was the one thought. And another thing, with all these things that you didn't like and could be bad, it's still a big step to make because you pretty much cross your life behind you and you move to something new. I didn't like a lot of things in the Soviet Union, but then you have camaraderie, you have friendship, you have certain, I wouldn't say study, but you have a certain position in society. So I felt like I am professional. Yes, I am doing work. Yes, I would like to have better living conditions, but it's like I work, I like people that I work with.

28:48So it's, I knew that there is better life, like on the other side, but frankly, to some extent it never crossed my mind just to smuggle enough because to this point, Ledef is pretty close to Polish Boris. With some extent, you can go to a remote area in Carpathian Mountains and you can walk across the mountains. I completely understand that, leaving something you're familiar with for a bit of a leap in the dark, if you did. So we must be coming up close to 1986. where are you when the Chernobyl disaster happens? Oh, so Chernobyl disaster happened in 1986, and I was then back to my home city. I was back in Lviv just working for a power company, and I remember when Chernobyl happened, nobody knew until two days later, because if you remember, it happened right before May 1st, and party officials, they didn't want to upset people to spoil their holiday like May 1st, and so he heard about it two days later, and then basically the matter was keep spend less time in the sun, keep windows closed, and it was like shocking to everybody because to some extent, it's partially my field, not nuclear energy, but power generation and everything else.

30:27And then nobody could believe that it happens. Actually, there was human errors, but there were also a rush to complete something by a certain time because one thing that was like in Soviet Union, you have a few things to do and you have time to do it. and you better to do it in this time. And one of the tests, if I recall, they skipped a few procedures, and then when skipped, and when they would get back, because that graphite rots were not inserted fully, and then you could not reinsert them to control reaction, and then everything went. When were you aware as to how serious the problem was?

31:18Oh, just to say, the news is serious about the problem pretty much five or six days later, because when all first responders that, like, started to die in hospital, because they were not born naturally in a power plant because of the scale, so they have their own fire department. And firemen basically went first, and nobody told them there was exposed radiation on the roof. And they didn't know what they do. your first responder, you put down the fire. So we're pretty much new, I would say, like in the first five or six days. And also, everybody has like family or relatives or somebody knows somebody.

31:58So it started to come out. Now, when Mikhail Gorbachev comes to power, what changes do you start to see there? And are you hopeful that the Soviet Union is going to get better? Yes, a lot of people thought that Gorbachev was the first one. First of all, he was much, he was in comparison to Brezhnev or Chernin Kondropov. He was significantly younger because it was almost a joke. All these people who ruled the country, they probably could better remember what they had for breakfast. What changes did you see? This was Gorbachev comes to power 1985, towards the end of the 1980s, are you seeing much change?

32:47Actually, you know, I would say yes and no. There was much more rhetoric that everything will be better, but on everyday lives, frankly, you know, because it's almost like a chain. You see something from the top, but by the time it gets implemented in real life. So to some extent, I would say not much. But there were a lot of hopes that it will get better. And I think this is the frustration and what was the downfall of Gorbachev is that he couldn't fix it. And then it ran away from him. Yeah. And for a lot of people, it's basically, there was like some fake, false sense of stability. But there was something that you can rely on.

33:40There was not much. And after, when Gorbachev came to power and then everything started to fall apart, it was very hard to compare. For younger generation, it was better, I wrote, but for a lot of people, it's... Yeah, they thought actually the Brezhnev era was better because we knew where we were then. Hi, this is Rhonda in Virginia, and I support Cold War conversations because I think the work that Ian is doing is critically important. I think it's vital to record the firsthand accounts of people who lived and experienced the Cold War because it illustrates history in a way that a book never can.

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35:08Positive reviews really help me gain new listeners. So hit that pause button and give me a five-star rating. Thanks very much for listening. Can you remember hearing about the coup in 1991? The one thing I remember about the coup, and actually it's maybe false information, But when so, this army was pretty much, was like ordered to march like towards Moscow and to cover the government buildings. And this Russian airborne division from Rezaan was almost by parliament building. And then Yeltsin climbed over on the top of armored carrier and said, you cannot go. And apparently, at least according to what we heard, The troops stopped and they didn't follow Yaza Ora because the troops said they will not go against their own people.

36:07I think you're right. I think that's the way it went. But how did you first hear about it? Was it on TV or radio? Actually, no. It's what was very interesting. We heard later on TV, but it was still very partial. but what I noticed, I tell the, it's great, yes. I got up in the morning, I am walking to the office, I am waiting for tram stop, and I see armored personnel carriers driving on the street. So all troops were putting, that doesn't matter what, were bringing to high alert. So you know, because usually, you don't see armored personnel, armored carrier every day on the street of review. And there were two of them just standing by the building.