Between Two Air Forces: From East German Officer to German Captain (469)

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1:05Still waiting in line? Again? He stood right in front of me and told me directly that he never will accept me or one of the NVA officers because my brain is fully loaded with Russian propaganda and I never would have the right to give him or his comrades some orders. At German reunification, former East German Air Force officer Roland faced an extraordinary transformation, joining the military alliance that he'd once been trained to fight. Roland recounts his difficult passage from the East German military into the Bundeswehr. His experience, qualifications and years of service suddenly counted for less.

1:47Having been a member of the Communist Party, he endured intensive screening, as well as a reduction in rank, lower pay than Western colleagues and long separations from his family. Some new comrades welcomed him, others regarded him with suspicion, prejudice and open hostility. From working with MI-8 helicopters to supporting Germany's inherited MiG-29 fleet, he rebuilt his career. This is a revealing story of one former enemy confronting divided loyalties, institutional mistrust and the challenge of beginning again. I'm delighted to welcome Roland to our Cold War conversation. Can you remember when you first heard that the Berlin Wall had opened?

2:34I can indeed. It's one of the changing days, and I tried to figure it up in the right order. So that day, the 9th of 1189, I was the officer in charge for 24-hour duty, officer of the day. So to keep the guards and the soldiers in a 24 shift to protect the airbase in case of everything should happen. And so I was responsible for the airfield, for the airfield, the helicopters, hangars and everything. That means you start your day, and it seems to me like a few weeks ago, eight mornings with armed soldiers, eight o 'clock, to wear them in to protect the airfield for a shift system under my command.

3:26And it was a very long day. So you have a deputy, an NCO. I went to the helicopters, had to do my job, did my checks and everything. And a 24-hour shift is a long way. So it was a tough day, some problems on the flight and everything. And some technical decisions had to be made. And I went back to my office as the officer of IDA. And my NCO had managed. No problems at all. And let's say in the late afternoon, 8, 9, I just wanted to have a nap. Fell down and right there, just fully uniform on. And it knocked on the door. Just tried to nap. There was no signs. just knocking. I tried to ignore it, but the knocking continued by that way.

4:19And I just was a little bit dizzled by falling asleep or not be very awake that time. And ignoring doesn't help. The knocking went on. So I went up, closed my uniform, dressed in the right manner and flapped off the door. And there was standing two young soldiers, one of my brief guards conscripted guys conscripted man nervous a little bit shy but on the other hand a very euphoric and they told me that the berlin wall was opened right now due to the press conference of schabowski speech this evening i had no clue i was totally surprised so right now everyone was allowed to pass the checkpoints to visit berlin west so it was roughly a distance of 80 kilometers.

5:10They wanted me to hand over their Kalashnikovs to me, to quit their duty, and to leave the airfield, to go by train to Berlin West, to visit the city. So I was totally shocked. It was a situation, how to react, how to handle. And it took me at least, if my memory serves me right, one minute or something. And then I started roaring, shouting to them and explained to them that they passed a swearing ceremony that morning. So for 24 hours, protecting guards to protect the airfield for 24 hours. And they were not allowed to breach that ord to go. Otherwise, I had to put them in arrest, in jail right now.

6:01and they had to act under these orders until 8 next morning and then we could decide what should be the next steps. I don't know how it works, but it worked. So I called my deputy, gave the guys back and they did their 24-hour shift right now. And all my soldiers that was talking in that round, yes, for sure, did probably their 24-hour shift, get released on the next morning and got the chance to ask for permission to get one day or half a day off to leave the units. And it was a very tricky situation for me. But that's a point I remember the day the wall came down. Wow. Hell of a day that. Yes, for sure.

6:50I guess it's never happened that somebody serving in the NBA could go to West Berlin. it never happened before when did you first visit the west and can you describe that experience yeah it was a very let's say tricky situation my first visit to west berlin was a few months after the wall came down but let's talk about that a few sentences later though the first visit of my family so not my family my wife my son was earlier so after that shift i went home my wife just was waiting for me and told me that half of her colleagues wasn't there at the factory. And the greeting was, ah, you are here and not in Berlin West.

7:37Knowing that I'm an officer of the NVA, my son went back from school, told that half of the class is empty. Everybody was on the way. But for me as an officer, there was at that point no chance to go to Berlin West. So we took our Our Trabant car built in 1963, I think, bought for a big amount of money, drove to Potsdam because there was, might be a few days later. You had to get the permission to go and we drove right there, one of the main roads, direct to the Glienic Bridge. But it was crowded with people even a few days later. So I stopped the car. My wife and my son went out walking via the Linic Bridge and we just did an appointment.

8:25I kept my small daughter. She was at the age of four right now and stayed in Potsdam on the eastern side right there. I think there was a market or something else with no mobile phone, with no idea if they want to come back with a crowded people. they went to the other side of to west berlin and hours later at the exact night it might be in the brain if you did an appointment with me and with the officer and the family so we met each other my son had a skateboard underneath some matchbox cars my wife bought a golden flower pot or something else and we went back home though that was my family's first visit for me it was at the end of the year.

9:11A few months later, there was the chance, so the official way to say, if you're not on duty, if you don't wear the uniform, you are an officer, it's up to your responsibility. If you want to do it, to with it to city, yes, you can do it. So when there was, funny thing, there was one of my engineers who was flying, one of the Jens, he was told that that weekend at Berlin Stegnitz in one of the Aldi shops, they will sell for low budget price color TVs. So I picked up my Trabant again and drove via the transit road to Dreilinden. Just keeping in mind that was the border. No passports, small Trabant car.

9:56Me, my wife, son, daughter, pathing the border to go to Aldi to pick our welcome fare and to queue up to buy a color TV. And late in the evening we were back. That was my first visit to West Berlin. Wow. So your first visit to West Berlin was to buy a color TV with your Begrussen geld. Yes, correct. So on the eastern part, it was a mount of 4 ,000 GDR marks. And I think we took our and bought it for 195 Deutsch marks to buy a color TV for the family. Yes, that was my first visit. And what was your first impressions of West Berlin? Was it what you thought it would look like? Did it look really different to East Berlin?

10:41What was the impact there for you? A short trip that day, and it was late afternoon. Maybe it might be a little bit dark, but what you saw was a totally different world. Yes, for sure. So you couldn't compare it with the Brandenburg town. You couldn't compare it with Potsdam. But even at that time, every shop was illuminated. At that time, the Eastern ladies' families was on the way. It was a world of glamour. Even Walwood seems to be a temple for buying something. So that was the first impressions. How quickly did things start to change in the NVA? Did you have problems with discipline, with the conscripts particularly?

11:30No, I didn't manage that. Because as I said already, there was only a few. The other ones were soldiers with 10 years, 15 years, 25-year contracts. But I heard later on that there was in other units, even for the army, for the rocket guys, and so that there was big problems. But due to our task to realize air transport and even that things, there was no really a problem to say they took their weapons and wanted to change everything immediately no i couldn't recognize that this way because the safety of the aircraft was in was a really important job yes indeed yes because the air transport and also the search and rescue missions to realize that.

12:22And that was one of the main differences to a jet fighter squadron. We're more connected to other tasks and going direct to the border. So at this point in early 1990, East Germany is letting a lot of NVA soldiers go. Why did you decide that you wanted to stay in the military?

12:50okay at least two points i had to keep in my mind and to think it over first thing was that i did weigh all my education my apprenticeship my my studies for the aeronautics at that point it was the job i dreamt of i wanted to be a part of the aeronautical area so even the professional trainings. And finally, and let's face it, there were a family, a wife, two children, and I had to make my living. And to get the chance, it was not as easy as it seems. Two years later, I checked up. We graduated with an amount of 103 guys. Two years later, there was only six left. So it was a decision of there was a lot of unemployment coming up.

13:43You learned it. And And also, everyone was pleased to get a former NVA officer to give him a job. The aeronautics and even the family was one of the main points. I had to think over, and I did it that way. Can you remember when you first saw Bundeswehr troops on Brandenburg airfield? Yes. Yes, I can remember. It was one or two months later. It was decided that our quadrant was taken over and the guys went in with a Trans-Alle, with a C-160 airplane, went out. And there was no euphoric feelings. It was just a feeling like, definitely, we lost. And we will see what the future was bringing. That was the things which happened in your head.

14:42You saw an aircraft which was on your target for long times, just flying in, stepping out the guys. And these are the guys which will rule your life up right now from that point on. And there was that point inside of our young officers saying, by swapping over and sinking over to becoming part of the Bundeswehr, according to the flag of the Federal Republic of Germany, the black, red, golden things. So there was a saying in between us, we are the red guys with the golden past and the black future. And we had to check up what the next things were coming to. That's a short way to describe the situation in my mind.

15:31What options were you offered for your future?

15:39yeah it was just at least you had to undergo several checkings what's quite normal and the first option was to keep on right here at the air transport squadron to handle the helicopters to build up the search and rescue system it swapped over from basically military although for medical transports through the eastern countries of Germany. So that was a point. The first point was offered to me. I went down the rank again, was on the way to be promoted to a captain, but stepped down to the lowest lieutenant rank once again, got a two-year contract at first to check up all the things. And yes, was continuing my job right there.

16:33and later then after closing the book airfield they needed some some guys with knowledge for the russian techniques for the engineering and in that at that time i got the chance to swap over and to start because they needed it not because i was a such a tough guy they needed It's a specialist to go to the MiG-29 area to educate guys from East and West and to train because a decision was made by the government to keep the MiG-29 running for several times. And that was the next point I learned. I wasn't allowed to go there. Once again, I had some relatives in the West. They wanted me to work on the newest systems.

17:21But after a period, I think it was 1990, 1991, they needed some guys. and that was my next step. As a two-year Bundeswehr contract soldier. There must have been very few NVA officers that the Bundeswehr took on. Did they take you on because of your specialist knowledge of some of the aircraft that they were continuing to operate? Nobody explained it to me exactly that way, but I think as I managed we was a group of roughly 100 students at my course and there was only a few left but I think at that point there was also the chance let's describe it that way around to catch a guy who was experienced with Russian helicopters and also with Russian jet planes and who was willing to take a two-year contract and connected with that But I didn't keep that in their mind by discussing that, willing to leave the family again because I was stationed on the very different part in Germany.

18:34I think it was a mix of exactly that point. They were searching. And for me, it was a great chance to do it this way around. What was the screening like from the Bundeswehr? Because you are an SED member. they must have given you quite a lot of questioning about that can you tell me what that was like it was at least it was a long way yes of course but it seems to me quite clear and quite normal to to check up and there was a few guys which tried to hide connectivity with the with the stasi and so on so it was a long way there was interviews i had to go to mines to the military safety area to be questioned to some things.

19:19I had to undergo technical trainings, but I'm sure that they also were watching my behavior and the things. First thing with a few guys officers picked out from the NVA was a starting course. It was at the German Air Force Academy in Fürstenfeldbruck. So to learn the basic rules, the basic rules of the Bundesrepublik, the law and so was the beginning, then checkups, then trainings in different airfields, in different roles. So it was a long way. Yes, indeed. And I had, as I managed already, to leave my family two years after, let's say, three, to go near the Polish border. Then there was a MiG-29 stationed a little bit hidden from the public area and only get the chance a few times to go home, not regularly, because we started to take over the system to the Bundeswehr and to start educating mechanics from East and West right there.

20:32And to be honest, to stood on a winter evening with 10, 12 and other officers on one phone box outside in the snow to call your family, it wasn't the easiest way to do it this way around. But it was a way they offered me and I took it. What happened with your family when Germany reunified? Did your wife lose her job or did she find work?

21:02So it was a longer process. The big factory, steel producing factory where she was walking in, was operating for a few years, but she was on the way to study. She was just written in to study journalistics and that was canceled immediately because there was no need to have Eastern journalists at that time. with a lot of things. Yes, they lost their job and it was not so long way because we were ambitious to do it. They found a new one and she started at the Fielmann eyeglasses area with all their knowledge they had before. So she went walking and I went again far away from home. It wasn't an easy time, but it worked at that point.

21:53Yes, for sure. by the willing to, let's say simple, that might sound heroic, to survive and to give our children the chance to get a good education and to continue the life at least. Can you remember Unification Day? Can you remember what happened? And if you can't remember Unification Day, can you remember first putting on your Bundeswehr uniform? first question just to be honest i can't remember reunification day it might be that i was somewhere right in the middle of nowhere or and by fighting for surviving to be honest it was not my real focus the question two first wearing the uniform of the bundeswear so the basic things i was equipped with as a two-year contract guy with the basic uniform doesn't fit but we've got luckily we got our technician overalls and they fit and they was quite comfortable you got your boots to walk on the aircrafts and so i prefer to have my technician technician overall and if you were on duty for 24 hour shifts as an officer and so on so you had to wear the green It was a very ambitious feeling.

23:16It wasn't, I can't say it was fitted at the first of beginning. It was a little bit, yeah, let's say uncomfortable. But the technician overall was connected to my job. And it grew up a little bit by getting used this one and take the uniform that is necessary for other duties. Cold War history deserves to be remembered. and by listening to the next few adverts, you help us to do exactly that. Thank you.

24:09near beer. Athletic brewing company fit for all times. Hello. Look what TJ Maxx dragged in. The Devil Wears Prada 2 is now streaming on Disney Plus and Hulu. We are digital. We are downloadable. We are streamable. The fashion event of the year is certified fresh. Pull yourself together. We have work to do. Critics say it's smart and witty and the perfect sequel. That's all. Get runway ready for The Devil Wears Prada 2 on Disney Plus and Hulu, rated PG-13. How did your father handle reunification? That must have been a real shock for him. Yes, it was indeed. He denied it a very long time. And even explaining to my son that he couldn't understand, that I swapped over from the NVA to the Bundeswehr.

25:08For my father, explaining to my son wasn't a very difficult situation. But at that point, we lived on different parts of Germany. And we met at Christmas, for example, but it took a longer time to get him his peace with the situation. him. So he couldn't change it. So he went over from the SED to the Linke and to the other following parties discussing with me as he got the chance. I tried to avoid to let out my family, my children at that point, to discuss it with me. And yes, right now he's in the middle of the 80s. He's still on the way sometimes to hang on a little bit and look back to the former times due to his job.

25:57But there's a point to even to decide to let him at some points having his own ideas and his points. But he saw growing up his four children, my brother, my both daughters, the children of the children in that system and saw that it works. But for him right now, having a closer look in the newspaper and discussing the black side and the worst side of capitalism is still in his brain at some times, for sure. Did he manage to work after unification or did he retire? No, he found to work at the new, the following party of the SED. So the Linke, he swapped over and did there some jobs in the office and so on.

26:47And he got some health problems right before. He got his due to his lifestyle. He got his first heart attack at the age of 36, got some medical treatment. And until he got the age of being retired, he was still on the way to fight for the socialist idea, for the things. he was grown up and for his identity, yes, indeed. The former officers that you worked with, I think you said that the mayor of your local town is one of your former comrades. Were there any other people that you bumped into in later years? There was my leader as I started as a young officer. We went a long way together. We swapped together over from the Mi-8 helicopters.

27:41We did the job on the MiG-29, changed from Prussian airbase to Lage airbase together. It was a guy who trained me or gave me the basic knowledges. It was good at that time. I was young enough to be open enough for the changes. And he was luckily experienced enough to keep all the systems and all the, let's say, technicians, mechanical things in his mind. So we had a 10-year good mix at that time to swap over and find the stations. Other guys, very seldom met, but we have a crew of former Mi-8 pilots. And we met each other once a year before Christmas on the first weekend of December. But they are at least doing totally separate jobs.

28:29They are in the insurance industry, dental technicians. There are only two or might be three of them. one in the military part lieutenant colonel right now one at the civil uh one at the went to the police so there are not much which left over that time it's also depending on the age if they were at the middle 50s or at the end of the 40s right as the wall came down they are retired now did you have challenges with your west german colleagues accepting you as a former nva officer Yes, indeed. As I managed a short time before, there were some of them who explained me my life in the GDR by never being there, even at the Air Force Academy.

29:20There were other ones who never met a former NVA officer but explained to me that there could be no substance, no technical knowledge, because the studies were also only based on Marx and Lenin. And to read books of the socialist and Russian, yes, it was quite difficult. And just to be honest, I didn't explain them too much. So I did a training for three months at Jäber Air Base. And in the round of officers, there was an officer club. And after three months, we worked together. I just said goodbye. I want to thank you, everybody. I have to go back to Brandenburg. And one of the lieutenant colonists turned to me and said, wait, you are an Eastern guy?

30:06Totally confused. And I said, OK, we have the problem. Have I only one arm on one side? I'm smelling or what? So that was a long way. And sometimes it was difficult. But on the other hand, I met guys who was open, who found the way. And there was one of the commanders of the Yeva Air Base who certified me good technical knowledge, at least. So it was a mix of all. Yeah. So you didn't overtly say that you'd served in the MVA unless somebody asked, I'm presuming. Yes, for sure. So they know it. The commanders and everything had knowledge before, because if I went there and starting the Mid-29 story, there was even the Western commanders, but the community of guys who had learned the system and was on the way to educate was mostly part some Eastern guys, at least.

31:03it changed the situation as we went to Lager Airbase. Then there was a mix of both. We had the Phantom guys and the MiG guys at one airfield. But to describe this situation, the Air Force and even an airfield is a special cosmos. So you have your rules, you have your knowledge. It's another situation as if you go outside to, let's say, another company or a factory. yeah yeah and you must have come across colleagues who were fascinated and genuinely interested in your past yes but they didn't ask a lot of questions this situation let's say was a long time, years later. So it might be it started as we get the chance to go with the MiG-29 to Cold Lake Air Base.

32:06There was one of the leading technicians to swap over, so we took the long way to Britain, Eastland, Greenland, Goose Bay, North Bay, Winnipeg to take part on a big NATO exercise. and the red mix and the guys who had the knowledge. It was interesting even to get the questions and to explain it to them. That was a point where even my Western colleagues who took part on the move rides there realized what the point was. And the basic point was, to my mind, what they learned is that the technician is also able to adapt and to get an idea how to handle a Phantom F4. even the Russian things. But it was a very long way.

32:52It was at the beginning 90s or in the middle of 90s. It was a big exercise. And yes, it was a point where some of the colleagues started to ask. But I kept it a little bit closed because you had to find yourself at that point. You wasn't a hero. You were fighting for surviving. Do you think being in the NVA hindered your career progression in the Bundeswehr? it would be unfair to say a clear yes but i at some times let's face it i got the chance got the chance to be an officer by profession i get very interesting jobs but there was surely if you weren't strong enough and i met some guys who quit that job because they couldn't stand the pressure and they wasn't not self-convinced enough to do their job for a longer period and if you for example serve at Lager Airbase and you are from the eastern part and you get 66 percent of payment and the Phantom guy get 100 percent so there were some times which had to be discussed but not at that point it's now my view back in the past not right there And what rank did you reach in the Bundeswehr?