In short
The 1971 Dan/D.B. Cooper hijacking of Northwest Airlines Flight 305, his ransom demands, the Boeing 727’s rear stairs used for an in-flight jump, and why the case remains the only unsolved U.S. airplane hijacking. The episode also connects Cooper’s flight configuration to CIA-linked “Air America”/CIA-owned airline testing in 1968, and discusses the later discovery of marked ransom money near the Columbia River.
Guests
Pat Boland, a true-crime aficionado and D.B. Cooper researcher who says she has read FBI files and interviewed people connected to the case.
Key claims
Cooper used precise 727 settings (low/slow, flaps 15 degrees, under 10,000 feet) and likely had parachute proficiency. The FBI closed the case administratively in 2016 after 45 years, assuming Cooper died. A major theory links Cooper to CIA covert aviation via Southern Air Transport’s 1968 drop test.
Notable examples
The stewardess note (“I have a bomb… come sit by me”), the $200,000 ransom and four parachutes, the missing parachute, the 1980 boy finding packets of serial-numbered bills, and diatom evidence suggesting the money was buried in spring rather than immediately after the November hijacking.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe D.B. Cooper Hijacking Overview
0:21 to 1:39
An overview of the infamous D.B. Cooper hijacking and its significance.
“Cooper hijacked the 727, he gave the same flight configurations as them.”
Introduction of Pat Boland
1:41 to 3:08
Discussion with true crime expert Pat Boland about her interest in the case.
“some time, and it's great to get somebody on who we can really get down into the weeds about this story.”
The Day of the Hijacking
3:09 to 6:44
Detailed recounting of the events on November 24, 1971, leading to the hijacking.
“It was a little kind of rainy and gloomy, but it was the night before Thanksgiving.”
The Hijacking Unfolds
6:45 to 12:39
Exploration of Cooper's demands and the unfolding hijacking situation.
“Of course, there were three seats across.”
Aftermath and Investigation
12:40 to 14:01
Discussion of the investigation following the hijacking and its challenges.
“again heard from, hasn't ever been identified.”
The Search for D.B. Cooper
14:01 to 14:54
Learn about the challenges faced by authorities in locating D.B. Cooper after his hijacking.
“So everyone was running around Washington looking for D.B.”
The Calm of D.B. Cooper
14:54 to 16:48
Explore the demeanor of D.B. Cooper during the hijacking and how it differed from other criminals.
“I think that there's some great details in this story, which is something that we really enjoy on Cold War Conversations is some of the details.”
Air Travel in the Early 70s
16:48 to 18:00
Understand how air travel security was nearly non-existent in the early 1970s.
“somebody's middle-aged dad who decided, for whatever reason, to hijack a plane and jump out of it.”
The FBI's Reaction to Hijackings
18:00 to 19:36
Learn about the FBI's response to the surge of hijackings during the late 60s and early 70s.
“until we changed a lot of the restrictions at airports, there were hundreds of hijackings of airplanes around the world.”
The Release of Passengers
20:58 to 23:22
Examine the sequence of events after D.B. Cooper received his ransom money and released passengers.
“So the plane flies to Seattle as it would as the scheduled flight.”
Show all 20 chapters
The Mystery of the Found Money
23:22 to 25:19
Investigate the discovery of D.B. Cooper's ransom money years later and its implications.
“I mean, we're not aware of any other bank that was doing that.”
Insights from Those Involved
25:19 to 27:38
Hear firsthand accounts from people involved in the D.B. Cooper case, shedding light on its complexities.
“No one has been able to figure that out.”
The FBI's Initial Response
27:38 to 28:00
Understand the challenges the FBI faced during the initial response to the hijacking incident.
“But we've certainly come up with some interesting theories and some interesting suspects.”
The FBI's Initial Response to the Hijacking
28:00 to 30:50
Explore how the FBI was unprepared for the D.B. Cooper hijacking and its consequences.
“Well, first of all, I think it's safe to say that the FBI was caught completely off guard by the fact that a gentleman hijacked a plane and jumped out of it.”
Public Perception of D.B. Cooper
30:50 to 36:35
Discuss how D.B. Cooper became a folk hero amidst economic struggles in the 1970s.
“I mean, you will see people still wearing D.B.”
Theories Surrounding Cooper's Identity
36:35 to 42:00
Investigate theories connecting D.B. Cooper to covert operations and his expertise.
“And is it a coincidence that it's exactly the configuration that they were using with Air America?”
Exploring the Parachutes Used by D.B. Cooper
42:00 to 48:02
Learn about the various parachutes D.B. Cooper used during the hijacking and the forensic evidence left behind.
“And he actually sent over his two main back parachutes in a taxi cab.”
The Mystery of the Found Money
48:02 to 51:22
Discover the intriguing findings regarding the money a boy found and its implications on the D.B. Cooper case.
“story, which is the money that was found by the little boy digging by the river.”
Theories on D.B. Cooper's Identity
51:22 to 55:10
Explore speculation around who D.B. Cooper could be and the challenges of identifying him after decades.
“But I mean, do you think they're ever going to identify who DB, Dan, whoever he is, his identity?”
Discussion on D.B. Cooper and His Identity
56:00 to 57:27
Exploration of theories surrounding D.B. Cooper's identity and background.
“which is on Facebook, easy enough to find.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Pat Boland:This is Cold War Conversations, the home of real stories of the Cold War. I will be doing a live podcast at the Imperial War Museum in London on the 1st of November. Be great to see you there. More details at coldwarconversations.com slash live. Now on with your episode.
0:20Frank L. J. L.:In 1968, one of the CIA-owned airlines tested dropping men out of his Boeing 727. And when D.B. Cooper hijacked the 727, he gave the same flight configurations as them.
0:42Pat Boland:This is Cold War Conversations. If you're new here, you've come to the right place to listen to Cold War history. Please make sure you follow us in your podcast app so you don't miss future episodes. On November 24th, 1971, a man using the alias Dan Cooper hijacked a Northwest Airlines flight demanding a ransom of$200 ,000 and four parachutes. What followed was a daring escape that has left investigators and enthusiasts puzzled over five decades. I sit with Pat Boland, a true crime aficionado and expert on the D.B. Cooper case. Boland shares her deep dive into the many theories surrounding this infamous hijacking, which remains the only unsolved case of its kind in U.S.
1:28Pat Boland:history. She recounts the events of that fateful day, painting a vivid picture of Cooper's calm demeanour and meticulous planning. I'm delighted to welcome Pat Boland to our Cold War conversation. The story we're going to get into today has intrigued me for some time, and it's great to get somebody on who we can really get down into the weeds about this story. Pat, could you just start by explaining who you are and how you got interested in the D.B. Cooper mystery?
2:00Frank L. J. L.:Well, it's the only unsolved hijacking in U.S. history of an airplane. I'm old enough that I actually remember when D.B. Cooper jumped out of the airplane in 1971. I've always had a passing interest in the case. I'm probably more of a true crime junkie more than I am a D.B. Cooper fan, or at least I was. And we call it the Cooper Vortex because once you get sucked in, you can't get out. So I just fell in headfirst, started buying every book I could think of, watching everything, reading the FBI files. And here I am. So it's become my obsession. I think it is rather an obsession with many of us.
2:46Pat Boland:And there's a vast canon of work out there on the Internet with various theories. And as you say, a lot of books and a number of TV specials. But for those that don't know the story, can you summarize the story of November the 24th, 1971 for me?
3:08Frank L. J. L.:Definitely. It was a typical day in the Pacific Northwest of the United States. It was a little kind of rainy and gloomy, but it was the night before Thanksgiving. So a lot of people were anxious to get home. Even back then, today in the US, I believe that's the busiest travel day of the year. but the airports were pretty crowded even back then on the night before Thanksgiving, which of course is the only holiday in the U.S. that pretty much everyone celebrates. So around two o 'clock-ish, a man walked into the Portland, Oregon airport. He was dressed as a typical businessman of the day. He was wearing a suit and tie and a black raincoat and carrying a black briefcase.
3:55Frank L. J. L.:He also had with him a bag. We have never determined what was in it, but it was the type of bag that maybe you would buy a shirt that they would put in. So kind of about the size of a briefcase. And he walked up to the Northwest Airlines ticket counter and purchased a one-way ticket from Portland, Oregon to Seattle, Washington, which was about a 30-minute flight. The ticket was exactly$20, which he handed over a$20 bill. He gave his name as Dan Cooper. Some people think that we have Cooper's handwriting. We do not. He actually gave the name to the ticket agent who wrote it for him. Interestingly, when the ticket agent was interviewed, he said that Cooper gave his name as Cooper, Dan Cooper, which of course reminded people a lot of the famous Bond, James Bond.
5:01Frank L. J. L.:So that's kind of funny. But he kind of hung around and the airport was under construction. I guess some things never change, but they were unable to access any of the planes from the jetway. Now, the particular plane that Cooper was going to board was a Boeing 727. What was unique about the 727 was there were only two planes flying in the U.S. at that time that actually had the stairs to enter the plane at the back of the plane. As we are familiar with most planes you're entering from the side. This was a unique feature because this plane was able to land at smaller airports where they didn't have jetways, or it was just kind of a more convenient thing.
5:51Frank L. J. L.:You could get people on and off quicker. So the passengers on flight 305, and this was the terminating flight of actually a very long day. The flight initiated in Washington, D.C., Then it picked up the crew in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and then made a number of stops before it actually got to Portland. The Portland to Seattle was going to be the terminating flight of the day. So because of the construction at the airport, they actually had to board the plane from the tarmac. So everybody filed outside. Cooper was actually the second to last person to board the plane. The plane was only about half full, which again is counterintuitive being the day before Thanksgiving, but whatever that means, we don't know.
6:42Frank L. J. L.:He picked the last row, seat 18E, which if you're looking at the plane from the back would have been on the right side. He sat in the middle seat. Of course, there were three seats across. And as the plane was taxiing to leave, it hadn't even taken off yet. he slipped a note to one of the stewardesses. Of course, they were sitting right behind him in the jump seats. Well, she did not look at it right away, but he then, you know, turned around and said, Miss, you better look at that note. And when she did, of course, she almost fainted because it said, Miss, I have a bomb. Come sit by me. So this started, of course, the whole chain of events.
7:29Frank L. J. L.:After the plane took off, she reported this to the cockpit. Cooper told her to take notes, which is kind of interesting. The only thing he actually had written down was the original ransom note, which said that he had a bomb, which was in a combination of printing and very neat script. So Cooper had good handwriting, so whatever that's worth. So of course, the cockpit crew was alerted. the cockpit crew never saw Cooper. They never left the cockpit during this whole ordeal. So Cooper told the stewardess, Flo, to write down that he wanted$200 ,000 in a knapsack. He wanted four parachutes, which were two back chutes and two front chutes.
8:19Frank L. J. L.:He gave a deadline of five o 'clock and he wanted to go to Mexico. He also gave some very specific configurations of the flight. Well, anyway, of course, this started a whole chain of events where the 30-minute flight turned into about a two-and-a-half-hour flight. You know, by the time they gathered everything up, and based on the way he wanted the plane to fly, which was low and slow, they told him that they could not get to Mexico. They were going to have to have a refueling stop, which they settled on Reno, Nevada. Now, the critical thing about this whole escapade are the stairs in the back.
9:04Frank L. J. L.:And Cooper asked if they could take off with the stairs down. Well, Northwest Airlines immediately said, absolutely, you cannot do that. That is going to cause major damage to the plane right from the beginning. So then Cooper relented and said, well, that's okay. We can lower the stairs when we're in the air. So once they got to Seattle, again, the pilots were like, what do you mean lower the stairs in the air? This was nothing that anybody had ever done or had any reason to do. So even Northwest Airlines did not know that if you could lower the stairs in the air. So they actually had to call Boeing.
9:48Frank L. J. L.:And Boeing, unbeknownst to them, had done some tests in the early 60s with lowering the stairs and dropping things out. We don't really know why they were doing that. We're assuming that they had planned on possibly selling some of these 727s to the military at some point. So anyway, they gathered up the money. They got the chutes. They landed in Seattle. And once he got what he needed, he let the passengers off who never knew they were being hijacked, which was a huge benefit to Cooper because there weren't a lot of really good witnesses. The three stewardesses were all under the age of 25, very young ladies.
10:30Frank L. J. L.:Of course, they were scared to death. So Cooper got his money. Cooper got his chutes. He let the passengers off. He let two of the stewardesses off. So, of course, then they were able to finally around, I think it was around 740. And it was dark. I mean, I think sunset was about 420. So it was pretty dark at this point. So they were able to take off and head to Reno after they refueled the plane. And of course, when the plane landed in Reno, Cooper was not there. He had needed some help lowering the stairs, but he was able to lower the stairs in flight. They were actually lowered by gravity, not by hydraulics.
11:20Frank L. J. L.:So by stepping down, I mean, think about how frightening this is. They were about it, I think, 7 ,000 feet. It's pitch black. He has absolutely no idea where he is. Since they did not provide the money in a knapsack as he requested, he actually had to cut up one of the parachutes so he could tie it around himself. So he's got this money bag hanging down. He's trying to maneuver in the wind. It was kind of rainy. Walking down the stairs. and he jumped at some point. The problem is we don't really know what time it was. It was sometime between 8.10 and 8.15 based on some things that the pilots were seeing in the cockpit, which were some of the oscillations on the gauges and some pressure bump in their ears.
12:14Frank L. J. L.:But that is one of the, again, one of the reasons probably why he was not caught is they were not sure of where he jumped. So once the plane landed in Reno, which was quite a bit later, of course, there was no Cooper, there was no money, there was no bomb in a briefcase like he said he had, and two of the chutes were missing. And Cooper, he literally has never been seen again heard from, hasn't ever been identified. It's such an unbelievable mystery. It precipitated a huge manhunt. The FBI worked on this case for 45 years. Finally, in 2016, they announced that they had administratively closed it.
13:04Frank L. J. L.:Of course, they immediately thought Cooper had died because nobody had ever attempted anything so crazy as this. I mean, in all these hijackings that I've talked about, and there were hundreds of them, no one ever jumped out of the plane. They were all on the plane, of course, when they landed. So this, they just assumed that, you know, this crazy guy decided to do something, almost a suicide mission. But then when they didn't find anybody. They didn't find any money. They didn't find his briefcase or anything else in the pursuit of Cooper. There was an unfortunate time lapse between the crime and actually boots on the ground.
13:48Frank L. J. L.:And I think they lost a lot of time there. Of course, everybody was out looking for him because it was Thanksgiving weekend. So the general public thought, you know, this was crazy. So everyone was running around Washington looking for D.B. Cooper. And of course, it's$200 ,000. Part of the problem is they didn't really know exactly what time he jumped. They're estimating he jumped between 810 and 815 based on some popping that the cabin crew felt in their ears. But again, they don't know. So a jet airplane in five minutes can travel quite far. so that was part of the problem they were probably looking in the wrong place now we believe that cooper jumped a little bit farther south but anyway after you know just months turned into years turned into decades i think the fbi would say they were really no closer in 2016 than they were in 1971 in solving the case.
14:57Pat Boland:Incredible, incredible. I think that there's some great details in this story, which is something that we really enjoy on Cold War Conversations is some of the details. And one of the bits I liked is that the stewardess that was handed the note, she thought that the guy was trying to chat her up and had handed her his phone number on this note. So she didn't look at it straight away.
15:20Frank L. J. L.:Exactly. There were three stewardesses, Flo, Tina and Alice. Alice was in the first class cabin. Flo was actually the first person to interact with him. And I know when we think of D.B. Cooper, we think of that sketch of him wearing the dark sunglasses. Flo is really the only person who saw him without his sunglasses, which he was not wearing when he first entered the plane. He put them on at some point after that. But that's exactly correct. He handed her the note and they were, you know, strapped in the jump seats for takeoff and she just stuffed it in her pocket. He turned around and said, you better read that, miss.
15:59Frank L. J. L.:Again, he was very polite. You know, this is another really strange thing about D.B. Cooper. A lot of other men, we call them the copycats. Unfortunately, they decided to pull off the same stunt as Cooper did. Of course, all of them were promptly arrested and convicted, but they were jumping around waving guns and threatening people. And Cooper remained calm, cool, and collected. The stewardess has all said he was very nice. He never specifically threatened them other than the fact that he told them he had a bomb, which clearly is threatening. But it was an altogether other very odd way in which he conducted himself.
16:41Frank L. J. L.:And that's really part, I think, of the mystery of the case, that he didn't really seem like a criminal. He just seemed like somebody's middle-aged dad who decided, for whatever reason, to hijack a plane and jump out of it.
16:56Pat Boland:And I think it's important to remember that back in 1971, catching a plane was like catching a bus. you know as you described you just you just paid your money and walked on there was no security
17:10Frank L. J. L.:check well there was nothing in fact people don't realize that cooper did not even give the name db cooper when the ticket agent filled out the ticket for him and he paid his 20 dollars he said his name was dan cooper it wasn't until you know it was kind of a game of telephone where one of the reporters, you know, everything was so chaotic at the airport that he misunderstood and he, it kind of stuck. He, he did an article saying his name was DB Cooper, but that wasn't even his name. No, you handed over your money. In fact, you could even make a reservation over the phone back then for a seat on an airplane without even giving a credit card.
17:52Frank L. J. L.:You just gave your name and they held your seat for you. I think people don't realize, but back in the 60s and early 70s, until we changed a lot of the restrictions at airports, there were hundreds of hijackings of airplanes around the world. Specifically in the US, between 1968 and 1972, there were approximately 140 airplanes that were hijacked. Many with the perpetrators asking to be flown to Cuba because, of course, we were in the middle of the Cuban embargo and commercial jets could not fly there. So there were a lot of young kind of pseudo revolutionaries that were hijacking planes and you wanted to land in Cuba.
18:37Frank L. J. L.:In fact, it became such a problem that the FBI actually considered building a fake Havana airport in Florida to fool the hijackers so that they would actually land in Florida and they thought they were in Cuba. Of course, when they got off the plane, they would be immediately arrested. Interestingly, at the time, the Nixon administration, of course, Richard Nixon was president during that era. They were really pushing for more security because the FBI was not too happy about all these planes being hijacked. There were no metal detectors. There were no checks. I mean, it was only a matter of time before there was a major disaster.
19:16Frank L. J. L.:But they did not want to inconvenience their passengers, which I think we find kind of humorous now. So obviously, people were getting on with guns and bombs and everything else. I mean, Cooper was somewhat of a precipitating factor. But it really wasn't until a year later, that some guys who were wanted for other crimes hijacked a plane and threatened to fly it into a nuclear power facility. Well, that was really the tipping point when the federal government stepped in and said they were going to fund metal detectors and a lot of the things that were just, you know, commonplace now. And that was like early 1973 that we finally saw the beginning of those kind of measures.
20:04Frank L. J. L.:The only really security measures that they had back then then is they did have air marshals, which were law enforcement, who would pretend they were passengers, and would be, you know, on random selected flights. Now, Cooper was a bit concerned about that, because he did mention to one of the stewardesses that he hoped there were no air marshals on the plane, but of course, there were not. But that would have really been the only thing that they would have done back then. And so I think that's kind of alien to what we're used to now. But flying was, you know, it was kind of luxurious back then, really, and very simple.
20:42Pat Boland:Choice Hotels get you more of what you value. Comfort in, it's calling your name. Save on the stay. Oh, and free waffles are yours to claim. Book direct at choicehotels.com. So the plane flies to Seattle as it would as the scheduled flight. He lets the passengers off.
21:05Frank L. J. L.:He let the pack once he got the money, which that was interesting. He originally asked for the money in a knapsack, which is we would call a backpack. You know, that's an interesting terminology because a lot of people connect that to not being so much of an American term. A lot of people think Cooper was Canadian, but that's a bit of another story. They did not give him a knapsack. They gave him the money in a very flimsy money bag. So once he got his money, he did let the passengers off. And then once he got his parachutes, then he let two of the stewardesses leave. So he kept Tina, one of the stewardesses who was with him the entire time, he kept her on the flight from Seattle to Reno.
21:57Pat Boland:And$200 ,000, what's that sort of like now in? today's money.
22:04Frank L. J. L.:It's funny because a lot of people say, well, that's not very much money. In today's dollars, it's around a million and a half dollars. But interestingly, some of the copycat hijackers actually mostly asked for a lot more than$200 ,000, even back then. So that's a little curious. Although he did not specify the denominations. Now, they did give him$10 ,020 bills, which actually weighs over 20 pounds. So whether or not Cooper factored in that he was not going to be able to safely jump carrying that much weight, although paratroopers in wartime certainly are carrying way more than 20 pounds of equipment.
22:49Frank L. J. L.:So I don't know if that makes sense, but for whatever reason, it was$200 ,000. Some people have speculated, well,$200 ,000 is easily divided by two. So maybe he had an accomplice, but there's no information or evidence that he had any sort of accomplice.
23:10Pat Boland:You said this was the weekend of Thanksgiving and like everything closes down then, that must have been quite a challenge to get hold of$200 ,000 over that weekend.
23:21Frank L. J. L.:Well, that is what is, as I say, another rabbit hole. There was a very large bank in Seattle that had multiple branches, and they had put aside$250 ,000 in a separate vault that the serial numbers were recorded in anticipation of some sort of ransom event, which from what we have found out was not the norm. I mean, we're not aware of any other bank that was doing that. Now, if you want to be all conspiracy theory, did Cooper know that that money was there? We have no idea. And you're correct. Back in 1971, at least in the U.S., banks typically closed at 3 o 'clock. This particular bank, being the main downtown Seattle branch, actually stayed open until about 5, which that was the deadline Cooper originally gave to get his money and his parachutes.
24:19Frank L. J. L.:So the fact that the serial numbers were already pre-recorded, I'm sure a lot of your listeners already know that in 1980, a little boy was playing on a beach in Vancouver, Washington, on the Columbia River, building a campfire. And what did he find but three packets of$20 bills that were rotted away, but the serial numbers were still visible. And his parents took the money to the FBI. And of course, that was identified as some of Cooper's ransom money, which is the only thing we have post hijacking of Cooper's. Unfortunately, that has created probably a bigger mess than the whole case from the beginning, because nobody knows how that money got there because it's not on the Air Force produced flight path.
25:17Frank L. J. L.:It's several miles away. So how did that money get there? No one has been able to figure that out. So that did not help the case at all. Made it more complicated.
25:32Pat Boland:Intriguing. Intriguing. The whole of this story is intriguing. Now, you've done your own research and you've spoken to some of the people involved in the case. Can you talk about those?
Read the full transcript
25:44Frank L. J. L.:Well, I definitely have. Interestingly, out of the six crew members, five are still living. So I've been able to speak at length to one of the stewardesses and she has provided some interesting information. The gentleman who drove the money from the bank to the airplane is actually still with us, thankfully. And he was able to give some really good information about how the money was packaged, how the packets were bundled together. So that was really interesting. The young man who was a college student who sat across from Cooper on the plane, We have actually a conference every year. It's coming up in November in Vancouver, Washington.
26:29Frank L. J. L.:And he has been gracious enough to visit with us every year and talk. He was 20 years old back in 1971, how he was noticing D.B. Cooper because the pretty young stewardess was sitting next to this kind of middle-aged, not particularly handsome man and wasn't giving him the time of day. And he was a very handsome young 20 year old. And she was probably only a couple of years older than him. So there's a lot of people that were involved in the case. Actually, one of the FBI case agents has come to our conference and has spoken to several of us at Lent. So there are still a lot of people that were considering it's almost 54 years ago.
27:14Frank L. J. L.:And also the little boy who's no longer a little boy who found the money. He's had some interesting things to say about how he came to dig up those packets. So, yes, I've been very fortunate to speak to a lot of those people. We have some really interesting people involved in trying to solve the case. I mean, most of us have no connection whatsoever to law enforcement. But we've certainly come up with some interesting theories and some interesting suspects.
27:42Pat Boland:Now, there must have been a massive manhunt after this. You said there was some delay in terms of getting boots on the ground. I mean, why was that? And how did the subsequent search for Dan, as I can call him now, manifest itself?
28:03Frank L. J. L.:Well, first of all, I think it's safe to say that the FBI was caught completely off guard by the fact that a gentleman hijacked a plane and jumped out of it. I mean, this was, you know, he was the first. So they were not expecting that. And they just assumed he had died. I mean, back then, most FBI agents were either lawyers or accountants. They were not skydiving experts. Now, if you were to ask some skydiving experts, which of course we have on multiple occasions, they will say that this was a very survivable jump. I mean, as long as you were able to pull the ripcord, there's no reason why Cooper did not survive.
28:45Frank L. J. L.:Of course, the FBI assumed he was dead. So they did not go full in on, you know, a search of the area. And we're talking about a very large area since they didn't know where he jumped. There's forest, there's farmland, there's homes, there's all sorts of stuff. So that was a problem. Now, there were a couple of chase planes that the Air Force had sent after Flight 305. The problem was the way the configurations that Cooper gave, the plane was flying basically low and slow. Well, the chase planes were not able to maintain that speed. You know, it was stall out speed for them. So we don't have any reconnaissance from those planes.
29:35Frank L. J. L.:So really, it was kind of like, where do we even start? And then the fact that it was Thanksgiving weekend, you know, this was probably more of a skeleton crew in terms of law enforcement. And then you have all the different jurisdictions. Obviously, this was a federal crime, but you had a lot of local law enforcement involved and the National Guard and all sorts of different things going on. And then you had the complication of all these other citizens running around. And you have to keep in mind the time period we're talking about. In 1971, it was late 1970, the federal government canceled a huge contract with Boeing for the SST, which was actually our version of the Concord.
30:27And this was a massive disaster for the Seattle economy.
30:33Frank L. J. L.:And thousands of people were laid off. And the ripple effect was huge. And this happened right prior to the hijacking. So a lot of people were sort of rooting for Cooper. I mean, this guy got away with it. So I think people weren't really so helpful, you know, in terms of, you know, assisting law enforcement and that Cooper really became a folk hero. And for a lot of people, he still is. I mean, you will see people still wearing D.B. Cooper t-shirts, and there's several songs have been written about him and movies. And we talked about several TV shows. But this was a really tough time in that part of the United States.
31:18Frank L. J. L.:And that is why some people think that's who D.B. Cooper was. He was just a poor guy who lost his job and needed money to support his family and decided to jump out of a plane. I personally don't buy that theory, but, you know, it kind of fits with what was going on in that time period.
31:39Pat Boland:Those people wearing the T-shirts, I would imagine that they are looking at this as a victimless crime.
31:48Frank L. J. L.:Well, and you can certainly make that argument. I mean, nobody was physically injured. In fact, the plane was even barely injured considering they flew with the stairs down so Cooper could jump out of them. When the plane landed, you know, it was back flying within a couple of days. And the airline had, you know, insurance. But after speaking with some of the people who were involved in it, there was a psychological effect for sure. but basically true crime, at least in the United States, it's unfortunately, it's a lot of dead people, you know, it's the Zodiac or, you know, the Green River killer, we seem to have more serial killers in this country.
32:34Frank L. J. L.:So this is different in that you can say, oh, yeah, everybody went on to live, you know, go on their merry way. But even this week, someone made a comment about, oh, he was like Robin Hood. And I thought, well, I don't know. I thought Robin Hood stole from the rich and gave to the poor. There's no indication that D.B. Cooper was that generous. But I think as time has gone on, people more do look at Cooper for what he is, which is a criminal who put a lot of lives at risk, which is what he did.
33:10Pat Boland:Absolutely. As far as the FBI investigation goes, do they have any suspects or do any, I guess, anybody who volunteers to say that D.B. Cooper is probably not D.B. Cooper?
33:24Frank L. J. L.:Well, actually, if anyone is really interested in digging in, a number of years ago, a lawsuit was filed against the FBI to release all of the documents that they have pertaining to this case. And there's actually supposedly over 80 ,000 pieces of paper. So if you go online, they haven't all been released yet, but you can certainly look at that. Yes, the FBI heavily investigated. And we know that because we can read the files. I mean, there were over 1000 men that were investigated some quite extensively over many, many years. And yes, there were also the random people who walked into supposedly FBI offices all over the country and said, I'd like to turn myself in.
34:11Frank L. J. L.:I'm D.B. Cooper. Clearly, those people were, you know, looking for attention or whatever. But no, I know a lot of people like to say that the FBI didn't, they didn't do a good job. They sort of put in like a, you know, half-baked effort. if you would read the 302s, which is the form number of the documents that the FBI fill out every time they look into something or someone, I would not even want to know the amount of money that was spent over 45 years on trying to find out who D.B. Cooper was. And yet they really got nowhere. And that's what's so, I think that's why so many people are so curious about this case.
34:55Frank L. J. L.:People do have theories. And I know since you talk a lot about the Cold War, one of the major theories in this is that Cooper was connected somehow to Air America, which I know you've done some episodes on that. I mean, Air America was kind of an umbrella for several airlines that were being covertly operated by the CIA, the Central Intelligence Agency. And during that time period, the 60s into the 70s, they were operating covertly as a, you know, legitimate airline over in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam War. but they were not operating as a real airline. They were, you know, ferrying around diplomats.
35:43Frank L. J. L.:They were dropping ammunition and food and rescuing down crews and doing all sorts of really wild stunts. What's interesting about that, in 1968, Southern Air Transport, which is one of the CIA-owned airlines, they actually tested dropping men out of a 727 in Thailand. And what the connection to that is, besides the fact that it was a 727, is that they used the same flight configurations as D.B. Cooper gave the airline when he hijacked the plane. He said he wanted not to fly over 10 ,000 feet. He wanted the flaps at 15 degrees. Again, this is all, you know, aviation technology. I'm not a pilot, something I would not be aware of.
36:36Frank L. J. L.:But he knew a lot about that airplane. And is it a coincidence that it's exactly the configuration that they were using with Air America? I don't know. I think there was a lot of evidence that points to Cooper being part of that world, whether it was some sort of special ops. I'm not saying that this was in any way a government-backed operation or anything, because I don't think it is. But I do think that Cooper did have some experience, whether it be through his military service. Was he involved in Air America? Was he had been with the CIA? I mean, most of the Air America people were actually not with the CIA, but they were CIA contractors.
37:26So that's a huge, I hate to say rabbit hole,
37:31Frank L. J. L.:but really there are a lot of connections with that world. Part of it is the fact that Cooper was so calm. He was obviously proficient with parachutes, which rules out a lot of people. And he seemed to know an awful lot about that 727. He used a lot of airline terminology when speaking to the crew that, again, your average civilian person would not know about. Now, being that time period in Cooper's age group, which the FBI estimated him to be about 48, There's a good chance that he had military service, although probably not in Vietnam, you know, could be World War II or Korea and may have been a paratrooper, so may have had some experience through wartime.
38:22Frank L. J. L.:But I think it's safe to say that this was not the first time he had put on a parachute and jumped out of a plane.
38:31Pat Boland:And how far did the FBI pursue that military veteran route from what you can make out in the files?
38:41Frank L. J. L.:Well, first group that they really centered on were smoke jumpers, which were men, of course, that were jumping out of planes to fight fires, which were unfortunately are quite common in that part of the country. They didn't get anywhere with that, but they did interview a lot of those people. Obviously, a lot of the men that were turned in to the FBI had military service just because so much of the population did back then. They also looked at a lot of skydiving centers, people that were sports skydivers. You know, that's a hobby that people have. What they found out is that at least in 1971, most people that were doing that as a weekend hobby were quite a bit younger.
39:27Frank L. J. L.:And so they weren't finding a lot of 50 year olds that were jumping out of planes for fun. You know, as far as pursuing specifically, you know, army personnel, I mean, certainly if they had a suspect, and he had a background in the service, that would have been, you know, a box that would have been checked if he knew about parachutes, several of the people that were turned in, interestingly, were demolition experts in the military, which is kind of funny because we really don't know if the bomb that Cooper had was even really a bomb. I mean, it kind of looked like a bomb to the very young lady stewardesses.
40:10Frank L. J. L.:But again, who knows what a bomb looks like. So that's kind of interesting how many of those people were turned in. A lot of the people that were turned in were somebody had a grudge against their ex-brother-in-law or something like that. But certainly in having military service, when you are looking at a suspect or person of interest, it's a positive, especially if it was in a capacity where you would have been wearing a parachute or have the opportunity to be jumping out of a plane.
40:42Pat Boland:And I understand that the authorities had some real problems trying to source these parachutes for Cooper at Seattle.
40:52Frank L. J. L.:And that's really odd because McCord Air Force Base is quite close to the Seattle airport. In fact, Cooper even mentioned when they were taking a long time to source his demands, the money and the parachutes, he said, but McCord is only, you know, X amount of miles away. So he obviously was familiar with the area. For some unknown reason, was it because it was the night before Thanksgiving? Was it, you know, chain of command issues? The Air Force Base was unable to produce shoots in time. Again, he gave a pretty strict deadline and they wanted, you know, to adhere to that if at all possible. So they ended up getting the two back shoots from a gentleman who was a stunt pilot of of all things, who, you know, had no connection to the military or law enforcement.
41:48Frank L. J. L.:He actually had his own business. But on the weekends, he used to fly stunt planes. And you were required by law to wear a parachute, much like you would wear a life vest or something to be in a boat. So somebody knew someone who knew him. And he actually sent over his two main back parachutes in a taxi cab. So, you know, that's how Cooper got the shoot he jumped with, came out of a taxi. The two front reserve shoots came from yet another place, which was a skydiving school in Issaquah, Washington, which, again, is not far. And for some unknown reason, the gentleman gave two shoots. One of them was operational and the other one was not operational.
42:34Frank L. J. L.:It was a classroom training shoot. So Cooper had four parachutes, one of which would have done him no good in terms of jumping with. That chute is missing. So we don't know what he did with it. Did he get mad and throw it out of the plane? But it's not there. So there are two chutes that were on the plane. that are one is in a museum and in the state of Washington and the other one is in the possession of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
43:07Pat Boland:I mean the state of forensics in the 1970s would obviously not have been as strong as today particularly around DNA. What sort of forensic investigation has gone into this because he's obviously handled the parachutes but I guess hundreds thousands of people have probably handled those parachutes in the meantime. But he also left behind an article of clothing as well.
43:32Frank L. J. L.:Yes, he did. Cooper left a very inexpensive black skinny clip-on tie, which if you go watch some old 1971 American TV shows, skinny ties were not in fashion. He left that on the plane and we don't know why. Did he just not need it? Was it an error? Cooper was pretty careful. I mean, he took back the ransom note that he gave the stewardess. He smoked some cigarettes and took back the matchbooks that he used. So he was pretty careful with the evidence, but he left his tie. Well, of course, in 1971, DNA was not an investigative tool at all. So nobody wore gloves. The tie was actually coated with fingerprint powder because, of course, really the main tool back then was fingerprints.
44:31Frank L. J. L.:So for some reason, there are not a lot of fingerprints on the plane, which leads us to believe that possibly Cooper obscured his prints in some way. Was it super glue? The old gangster movies, they used to put acid on their fingertips. But for some reason, there's not a whole lot of fingerprints. But no, the tie was dusted for prints there was nothing there that was usable there was a hair head hair that was found remember they used to have those little cloths on the back of your headrest on the airplane and they did find a human hair which they at the time they were using to actually eliminate suspects so if they had someone they would take a hair symbol and they would compare it.
45:19Frank L. J. L.:Of course, we don't know 100 % that it was Cooper's hair. So there is that problem. Right now, nobody's really sure where that hair is. At some point, it got put in a file and was kind of never seen again. Unfortunately, because with DNA today, if we did have that hair, as a DNA expert has informed us, we could find out who Cooper is, because they would be able to extract DNA, do a forensic genealogy chart and find his eighth cousin. And, you know, just like they're catching so many people from 40 or 50 year old crimes right now, we do not have that. As far as the parachutes go, again, a lot of this stuff was touched by a lot of people.
46:07Frank L. J. L.:I still think it's worth testing the chute that the FBI has for DNA. But so far, we have no information that they've done that. But no, there was no forensic evidence. Now, for some unknown reason, although there are a lot of partial prints that they found on the plane, the FBI is pretty convinced that there's a palm print that they found that they're pretty convinced is Cooper's. But we don't know why they think that. So that, again, remains another mystery. Now, years later, when DNA became a thing, they did test the tie for DNA, and there were three samples on it. Again, unfortunately, they were very partial samples, and they don't know, unless they have someone specific to match them to, they weren't usable enough that they would be able to derive a suspect from the DNA.
47:11Frank L. J. L.:So no, there is no forensic evidence as we know it now. Now, I was speaking with a woman a couple of weeks ago who's a DNA expert, and she said, you know, don't give up because this technology is changing so rapidly that we really might reach the point where even if we have multiple samples, they would be able to separate them out. So that may become a possibility in the future. Of course, right now, the FBI is not actively investigating the case. So it would be up to someone to convince them to do this. And so far, that has not happened.
47:54Pat Boland:And I guess they're busier with more up-to-date cases as well. I just want to go back to one of the, well, one of the, I guess, tangible clues to this story, which is the money that was found by the little boy digging by the river. Because there's some intriguing sort of, well, forensics, I guess, where they've looked at that money and reckoned that it was buried quite a number of months after Cooper would have leapt out of the plane.
48:29Frank L. J. L.:That is correct. Now, there's something, I'm not a scientist, but there's something called diatoms, which are a form of algae, you know, that would be in the Columbia River there. And they have fall diatoms and there are spring diatoms, you know, depending on the time of year, what type of flora and fauna is there. And the diatoms that are on the money, remember the little boy got to keep part of the money, which was nice. And the FBI, I, of course, kept the rest. The diatoms that are present after being tested, again, many years after the fact, were actually pointing to the money ending up under the sand in the spring.
49:19Frank L. J. L.:So, of course, we know that the hijacking was in November. So what does that mean? Now, people have looked into very extensively into water flows and currents and how could that money possibly have floated there. So nobody's come up with anything at all that really makes sense. I mean, everything seems to be pointing in the opposite direction for that money landing there. Now, what has come out recently is another gentleman who is an expert on waterways, and there are those people out there. He does not think that the money arrived by natural means. In other words, it didn't flow down the river or there actually were some ice flows.
50:11Frank L. J. L.:Could it have moved down the river by that? He does not think that at all. He thinks the money was buried by human hands. Now, if that is the case, what in the world does that mean? Cooper did not bury it the night of the hijacking, apparently, since it points to the spring. So who would have had a reason to bury that money? Or how did someone have possession of that money? Well, that's an interesting theory. Now, we do know that some organized crime types like to bury money for future use. We also know that the CIA at times used to bury money for their operatives to be paid. Doesn't seem very smart, though, burying it right next to a body of water.
51:02Frank L. J. L.:And there were numerous floods in that area. So how would someone burying the money ever think that a little boy would even find it? so more is being worked on again with the money to try to come up with something that makes more sense and again like i mentioned earlier the money location was not on the path of the where the plane was so how does the money jump that many miles and get buried under the sand it's almost a bigger mystery than really db cooper is i mean some people are just more fascinated with the money fine than they even are with the hijacking because that's more of a scientific question
51:54Pat Boland:the more you dig in i can see how you easily get into the cooper vortex here pat
52:00Frank L. J. L.:well hopefully we haven't sucked you in there's still time for you to escape i think
52:05Pat Boland:I think I'm going to stand by the edge and see how this progresses. But I mean, do you think they're ever going to identify who DB, Dan, whoever he is, his identity?
52:18Frank L. J. L.:Well, you know, I've held out hope. And as I said to someone recently, if we don't think the case is ever going to be solved, what in the world are we doing here? I mean, this is like a massive, massive waste of time and effort, right? And, you know, some people will say the fun is in the chase, kind of, you know, maybe trying to pinpoint. I mean, we have more crazy suspects. I have found more interesting people who are not D.B. Cooper, but they certainly had some very interesting lives. I think on one hand, the longer we go, the less chance that someone is going to come forward and say, my grandfather just died and I found some$20 bills in his attic and he was D.B.
53:07Frank L. J. L.:Cooper. I think that ship has kind of sailed at this point, I think, after 54 years. And I didn't mention earlier, since all the money, serial numbers were recorded, that none of the other money has ever shown up. So, I mean, I think that's really important, other than the$6 ,000 that was found on the beach. At this point, I'm not really hopeful that it will ever be solved. I think we have some gentlemen we're looking at that definitely could be Cooper. But as far as putting anyone on the plane without DNA and, you know, one of the witnesses that are still there looking at a picture. But after 54 years, they've told us that they saw so many pictures every week the FBI was showing up at their door.
53:56Frank L. J. L.:How about this guy? How about this guy? How about this guy? That they don't even remember what he looks like. In their mind, they're picturing him looking like the famous sketch with the glasses. which I personally think Cooper probably doesn't look anything like that sketch. Because the FBI did the initial sketch, which everyone is used to seeing with the sunglasses. Well, he looks rather young. So a lot of people were calling in tips on, you know, their next door neighbor who was 26. Well, the FBI thought Cooper was almost 50. So they did another sketch a year later to kind of make him look a little bit older.
54:37Frank L. J. L.:which really doesn't make any sense because that's not what the witnesses said he looked like. So I don't know that the witnesses at this point really are any help in identifying him. So really, unless there's some DNA breakthrough, which there probably will be at some point, will the FBI be interested enough to even solve it? One way or another, Cooper is dead. Did he die on November 24, 1971? Or did he die an old man keeping a secret for all those years? We don't know, but certainly the chances of him still being alive are very small, although there is still an open indictment for his arrest and prosecution.
55:23Frank L. J. L.:So if he's out there and he's 100, in theory, he could be arrested and tried for air piracy. which is a very serious crime, obviously. Wow.
55:38Pat Boland:Well, Pat, I've really enjoyed chatting with you. It's an intriguing story, and I really like the detail we got into there. If people want to get in contact with you, what's the best means for that?
55:54Frank L. J. L.:Well, for those of you on Facebook, we have a very active Facebook group called the D.B. Cooper Mystery Group. which is on Facebook, easy enough to find. I am on there a lot. And I do have a blog called negotiablecurrency.com. And the reason it is called that because Cooper asked for negotiable American currency, which again is another rabbit hole because why would you ask for American currency if you were in the United States? So we don't know, maybe Cooper wasn't from the US. So you can find me there, one of those two places and I'm also on X formerly known as Twitter pat boland too so you can message me if you have any questions or or if you know who db cooper is I'm more than happy to listen I frequently have people contact me with their father grandfather former next door neighbor etc and so far that hasn't panned out but you never know might be somebody might be listening who knows who Cooper is.
57:01Pat Boland:Absolutely, absolutely. And if that does happen, Pat, whether it's via Cold War Conversation or some other means, please do get in touch because we'd love to have you on. Oh, you will hear about it.
57:13Frank L. J. L.:You will hear about it. I will be on the cover of every newspaper, I think. At least I'll have my 15 minutes of fame if I solve the case, right?
57:22Pat Boland:Yeah, well, you're having your hour or so of fame here on Cold War Conversations, but thank you so much for coming on.
57:31Frank L. J. L.:I enjoyed speaking with you. Thank you for having me.
57:34Pat Boland:The episode extras such as videos, photos and other content are available via a link in the episode information. The podcast wouldn't exist without the generous efforts of our financial supporters and I'd like to thank one and all of them for keeping the podcast on the road. The Cold War conversation continues in our Facebook discussion group. Just search for Cold War Conversations in Facebook. Thanks very much for listening and look forward to seeing you next week.
58:26You
From the publisher
On November 24, 1971, a man using the alias Dan Cooper hijacked a Northwest Airlines flight, demanding a ransom of $200,000 and four parachutes. What followed was a daring escape that has left investigators and enthusiasts puzzled for over five decades.
I sit down with Pat Boland, a true crime aficionado and expert on the D.B. Cooper case. Boland shares her deep dive into the many theories surrounding this infamous hijacking, which remains the only unsolved case of its kind in U.S. history. She recounts the events of that fateful day, painting a vivid picture of Cooper's calm demeanour and meticulous planning.
Throughout the episode, Boland also delves into the forensic evidence—or lack thereof—that has hampered the investigation. From the infamous black tie Cooper left behind to the money discovered years later by a boy on the Columbia River, the clues are tantalizing yet frustratingly inconclusive.
Want to learn more?
Pat Boland Blog
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Episode extras https://coldwarconversations.com/episode421/
Live Podcast in London https://coldwarconversations.com/live/
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