Growing Up Under Communism on Cold War Poland’s Baltic Coast (474)

33:38And the kindergarten, everything is like a walking distance, so a 15-minute walk maybe from my apartment. My mom would drop me in the kindergarten on her way to work sometimes, and my sister. So we would be there for the day. But one day, it was a summer day, I left. I just left. I figured out somehow in my mind that I can open the gate and just walk. And I remember walking back home, and I said, I want to go home. and I realized that my mom is probably there and I want to just stay home I don't want to stay with them and in that kindergarten but the kindergarten location was by the river there was a river that goes through the center of the town and it was scary for them realizing that they've lost that kid so So they asked the caretaker, he hopped on his bike and he would be driving back because they knew our addresses, of course.

34:46So he found me by the building. I was just by myself. Kids would be by themselves. There was a norm back in the days, right? There was no fear. Our street was not a major street. so there were no buses going through, no lorries or trucks. Just sometimes there would be a horse with coal walking along the street. The cars would be an event going through our street. So I remember leaving that kindergarten. And then in elementary school, I remember that I was getting in trouble because sometimes I would open my mouth too soon and make some sarcastic comments about the cognitive system, and that would get me in trouble.

35:43And corporal punishment was a norm during my time. The teacher would smack you with a ruler on the hand to put you back in place. So I felt in the beginning of my elementary times that I don't want to stay in this system. I wish I could escape. And that sort of drove me to my decision later in life that eventually I wanted to leave this regime and try something different on my own where I have no one behind my back talking to me what I should be thinking about, how should I think, what can I do, what can't I do. even there was another story we used to have those id like a small booklets they gave us stamp in 70s that you could go and visit your friendly places in county's block like east germany czech republic etc so we were laughing with our buddies this is like university years And we said, the Soviet Union also is a good place to see.

36:57Let's see those people. Let's visit them. They gave us a stamp. And so we showed up. Now it's a Polish-Ukrainian border. We showed up and they wouldn't let us in. We wanted to cross the border and say, no, you can't go. You have to have invitation. You have to be part of an organized group. you can't just show up with your backpack and travel. So then I knew that this is the whole system that has been created. That's a lot of mockery. It's a fake. It's not the reality that we would want to continue living in. So we were brainstorming ideas. How can we possibly get out? What is the best way for us to escape the communist regime?

37:46Ian Sanders:Which we will come to subsequently. Can you remember December 1970, where there's protests in Poland about increases in food prices? Can you remember that? You would have been about nine or ten then. Right. The reason, probably the only reason that I remember is there was a night, I don't know, in my mind, maybe 8 or 9 p.m. There was a knock on the door and police showed up. so they showed up for the reason that the window the front store window was smashed by someone by protesters and they told my parents that there was a break-in and i was thinking how do they know how would they know there's no computer system how would the police know that the the workers or people working at that store live at this location.

38:53And there was no phones. Remember, in my building of 10 families, the only phone was at that location where the veterinarian used to live. He was the only guy who had a phone, like a landline, and he was the only guy who had a car, Sirena, if some listeners are familiar, Sirena was the name of that brand that used to be before the small Fiat was introduced in the 70s. So yes, I remembered just for that reason the events. I heard my parents were talking about it. The radio, of course, we didn't have TV. My home household TV showed up in 78, 79. There was a list of potential buyers at the store.

39:49My mom would sign up because my mom, she wanted to have a color TV. So she said, I'm going to wait because she heard that the color TV is coming to the market. So people would sign up. There was like a queue, and then you wait, and you show up every other day to the store. There's no one to call you. When are we going to get the TV? So when you were like closer to the top of the list, you would be showing up daily. And finally, we got the TV. There would be two to three pieces of TV showing up for that city of 50 ,000 people. There's nothing like, okay, there is a delivery boom. You can go and buy because you have enough money saved out so you can grab it.

40:51Wow.

40:52Ian Sanders:Because in Poland during that time, there is rationing of food as well. Is that correct? Were there ration cards being used then, or was that later on in the 80s? That is in the 80s, because the 70s were the time when people protested. The big thing, the biggest event in Poland was the shooting at workers at the shipyard that came on the street from Gdynia. This is the city close to Gdynia. There's like a tri-city Gdynia, Sopot and Gdynia. So then there were some shootings during the protests, and that was the big sort of change in the Polish government, because the guy at the top, Gomułka, was his last name.

41:50he was replaced by Edward Garak from south of Poland, that he was installed or elected to the leadership of the Communist Party. First half of the 70s, there were more and more things showing up in stores, predominantly in bigger cities. Our town is still like random sort of delivery or area rag or TV or radio. It's like pretty much very poor at the time, but bigger cities were equipped more. Their stores were so. When you wanted to get something like a nicer pair of shoes, you would hop on the train sometimes and go to Gdańsk because there were more markets for a bigger population, more chances for you to get something nice.

42:52The food, my parents established a network because they would sell at the time groceries. That includes the fresh produce, some, I remember, chocolate. And then they started importing bananas and oranges. So that was the big thing. so we could have bananas and oranges during christmas time because they were delivered to my dad's store so we were lucky and then nuts the walnuts were also a big thing and chocolate now in in terms of getting uh meat my mom and my dad they would know other people from different network, different department stores. So they would communicate, okay, today you show up, I give you bananas.

43:47And then in exchange, when you show up tomorrow, I will put to the side some meat for you or some delis. So that's how people developed cooperation between themselves. And that scared me. When I was growing up, I said, I have no network. I don't know anyone. how am I going to start my life as a young adult? I have nothing. My mom only knows people and my dad. And I don't want to be part of that network because to me it was crazy. I couldn't understand why people cannot get even food according to their liking. Why you just cannot show up and buy things that you want to just simple, very fundamental.

44:35I'm not saying that let's buy fancy stuff. Just very simple things. And that drove me crazy. I couldn't understand why this part of the world lives in these conditions, whereas somewhere else, people have a different life.

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45:31Ian Sanders:Visit simplisafe.com slash licenses for alarm license information. Tennessee 2012. Starting a business can seem like a daunting task, unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website, to marketing, to selling, and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz, and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into... Sign up for your$1 per month trial at shopify.com slash special offer. In Poland at the time, you had something, I think it's sometimes described as the grey market, where you're relying on personal favours, you're bartering with neighbours to secure goods.

46:17Ian Sanders:Somebody in the family may have a skill that's useful to other people, like a plumber or somebody who could repair cars. And in return, so you've got this sort of barter system. And that, yes, that barter system, in my perspective, also led to the corruption on the larger scale. Because once you had a position on a certain job, you were the guy who would be calling shots. and if people were knocking on your door asking for a favor you expect it to be given nice cognac or like a rare chocolate things simple things coffee beans can you imagine you get a coffee and then the guy says okay i can help you with that if you show up with empty hands asking can can we solve this problem?

47:15They would say, oh yeah, we can think about it. We can write your name on the list. And you knew at the end, nothing was going to be resolved because of that. You would have to pay your way in, in some form. Yes. Yeah.

47:32Ian Sanders:Can you tell me about the school you went to and what sort of ideological teaching was going on there to try and turn you into a good socialist worker? So my elementary school was named after Tadeusz Kościuszko, so a great hero in Polish history. And it was a walking-distant German building. It used to be probably a hospital, but huge classrooms, big doors. and teachers in elementary schools, they were not really infiltrated in the sense that they do not really provide political sort of climate in classroom. They were focusing purely on curriculum and discipline. So the corporal punishment was a normalized thing, and they would keep us in shape by just hitting us, telling us to march.

48:40If there was a rainy day, you don't go to the yard, so you would walk like in prison in the hall in pairs. And it would be teacher on duty, and she would yell or smack at some boys that would be running around or trying to get from that marching order. So this is the conditioning, you may call that, but it's not necessarily politicized condition, but definitely keeping you in line. So you would know that authorities you must listen to. You always say when you are given permission, you don't start with your own ideas. You always have to be part of the order. So that's in my, how I see it now, how they conditioned us.

49:35High school, then we are a little bit older because you are 15 to 18. and some teachers would try to convey some political views, but also in a way that it is not obvious. I don't recall that we were expected to be part of that socialist movement whatsoever. There were invitations to join, for example, the Boy Scouts, the socialist version. And I showed up when I was grade 11, maybe, or grade 10, because I was curious, what is this all about? And I hear them talking like gibberish. The meeting was about this sort of ideals of socialism. And I'm thinking, Boy Scouts, to me, is like a camping. I want to be adventurous.

50:32I want to go. And, okay, where are we going to go? Where's the summer camp? so we would end up going in the summer camping i remember in high school but we were not part of that group we just created or signed up with teachers who volunteered to take us in to exploring poland by train and camping but there was nothing of that formation but some kids did I understand some kids did. Some kids did because their parents held a position in the Communist Party where they were expected to be part of it. Because if you're part of that Communist regime, because my dad is like a trooper in the army. He has no saying, right?

51:19He just has this little book saying that he is a member of Communist Party. And that's it. He doesn't go to meetings. Nobody's knocking on his door. Because they checked off. okay, this guy is with us, but he's just a low level, who cares, but he's with us, so boom, check. But some kids whose parents had different administrative jobs in the government, they were the good kids. They had to show up because that was expected, because the dad's job is on the line. I was lucky enough because my dad was not involved. My mom didn't care, frankly. The only time that I was asked by my mom, when I was turning 18, and there was an election year.

52:09There was an election year. This is 79 or maybe early 80. And my mom said, frankly, to me, you must go because they may not let you into university. So she just scared me because I said, Mom, I'm not going anywhere. So that was the only time that I participated in an election. But we knew that always the same guys wins. There were three parties put in officially by names. And then somehow always the same person goes back and wins overwhelmingly. I don't know who was voting for them. I remember when I showed up, I was fiddling. I was doing some scratches. I wasn't voting because I didn't, like my ballot was not valid.

53:02I was crazy just like that. I went there because my mom told me, go because you're not going to go to university. I don't know whether that was true or she was afraid of the system. So this is how I started my first civil duties when I turned 18 back in Poland.

53:25Ian Sanders:It's interesting you saying that the socialist youth organisations were not compulsory, because in almost every other country where I've interviewed people in the Warsaw Pact, they were. And it was very few people who would dare not to be part of those. But again, it sort of underlines the difference in Poland about how it's almost like the Communist Party is treated almost as a joke by the bulk of the population. And they just go through the motions. in private conversation people knew that this is the facade the system is like a hollow sort of balloon but there's no substance inside so we were going with the flow but people organize themselves as you already mentioned into ways of helping each other by bartering systems by just exchanging favors.

54:24So any social gatherings would be pretty much at home. We would call it in Polish, it's called Privatka. It is the time when you invite friends or families, you have organized who is bringing alcohol, we have whatever food we have on the table, and we socialize, we spend times like that, right? or going to the Western movies to watch in theaters because they would buy sometimes movies. So we would go and we would hope that one day we will get to see, especially the USA movies from Hollywood when they came, that was like a wow effect on us. People were sitting in that theater and you see the big screen and you just say, how come he gets these t-shirts like that, the pair of jeans?

55:19This guy looks so cool on the, right? Where is our ability to get stuff like that? No, simple. We were longing, why can't we get this? Like a simple thing. We're not saying, let's do some crazy events, just living life in a very normal way.

55:41Ian Sanders:What were you doing when you weren't in school with your mates? Were you playing football? My parents wanted me to grow up in some well-rounded kind of education, so they signed me up with music school. So there's a national music school that runs separately to day programs. So the classes, the theory, music theory, the instruments. And so first I signed up. My sister, older sister, was very obedient. No, she was nicer to deal with. She would say, my mom said, okay, I'm going to sign you up. And for music school, she would say yes. To me, I was like, why do I have to do it? Mom, I don't want to do it.

56:28And then I remember saying to my mom, I want to start with learning how to play guitar. So she bought me a guitar. and the first couple months and I said, Mom, I'm no longer interested. And then she would smack me. What are you doing? Guitar is not like you go and buy. You have to organize. You have to find a way to buy a guitar. It's not like you go to the store and you select this piece is going to be good for you. And then my sister already learning piano. The piano is in my home. So my mom said, no, now you're going to learn how to play piano, period. So I was doing this for a couple of years until I was in grade 8, and I didn't want to continue.

57:14My sister did continue. She went through high school years as well. And I was a rebellious kid, so I didn't want to continue. But then we traveled, we did the choir, we learned how to play piano, and that helped me. The music background helped me later in life because I was unqualified teachers teaching in rural areas. And they said, we need someone to teach music and math. And that was a good fit for me. So not knowing what your parents want for you, sometimes it makes a huge difference later in life. So I was rebellious because that was just the craziness of a growing up young boy. not paying attention much to things.

58:03So that was, and then I would do tennis because you could, and biking, biking was a very good way of spending time and playing football. Of course, football would be our sort of everyday in our yard that we had some rocks that would serve as a net. You would put two rocks or your school bags, and then boom, you're playing in the dirt and we're having fun. But music school would be my major time because she didn't want me to be part of some street kids because a lot of kids would be just hanging around on streets, running around. Not every kid had a bike because a bike also was an expense and not accessible unless you knew someone to help you to get from a store, right?

59:03Not every kid would be part of a summer vacation. Also, in summer, from the workplace, the state would organize summer camps. This is not politically oriented. This is just a place where you go for two weeks and you would learn, You would do some trips around town. You would do some fire camp and things like that. And teachers would do their summer jobs. So they get paid. They help us to grow, to explore the nature and different towns, different cities, history, etc. But no political taint, no political agenda. Even though I can imagine now that they were told to try their best, and people would fake, would say, yeah, absolutely we will do that.

1:00:01They didn't bring us to church during summer camps. I don't remember.

1:00:06Ian Sanders:When you get to high school, you're looking to get to university there. Do you know what you're going to be studying and what direction you're going in? So let me put things into perspective. The way I understand the system, because almost everybody would get the same kind of pay. There was no big difference. Whether you're a plumber or a teacher or even a medical doctor, you would be getting similar things. This was like an egalitarian system. So this is a positive for the time being. I'm saying, okay, this is how they allowed us to learn different things. And that backfired at them later. But for a young person, you can say, I'm interested in becoming this person or go and explore this profession.

1:01:04So then you would study. You have to finish your high school with that national exam first. So that's the opener to further application to university. Then any university program at the time, they said, if you want to come to us, we have our all entry-level exam. If you pass that, you're in. If you're not, I don't care whether you had your good marks in high school. Nobody cared about it. So I remember having a conversation with my friend in high school that people are escaping the border somehow. They're finding way through Baltic Sea, through hijacking airplanes. It was real stories. People did that.

1:01:53Trying to get through the border in Germany to Austria somehow. So we were able to figure out a plan. So I'm going to high school. My mom asked me, where are you going to go? Which university? I said, I don't know, mom. And then why Shipbuilding Engineer came into the horizons? Because they offered in their program that you board a ship as a practicum towards the end of the program, and you go and leave Poland. Bingo. That's the way out for us. So to get to the program, you need to pass their exams. And there was like several candidates to one place because this is the only school in the nation.

1:02:47So how are you going to get there? You have to be good at math and physics. So I studied. They said, no matter what, I'm getting in. And I passed the exam. He showed that at my door. because he went there to check the list who got in. I didn't because I was still doubting that maybe I didn't make it. So I have to revisit my plans. So I made it, and that's how I started the program. But I didn't develop any interest whatsoever towards engineering. I didn't care about the machines. I was able to do maths, okay, the theoretical stuff. but I was not carved out to become an engineer. So this is how I started.

1:03:37But I have a theory that because they gave us so much opportunities in terms of learning and mathematics and physics, where there was no political science involved in that, they trained our minds so you could start thinking on your own feet. your mind will start developing idea because of that rigorous sort of academic program. And that, in my opinion, backfired at them. So people realized quickly that they're just playing game and we have to play with them. But eventually, this system is not going to last forever. So we were hoping that one day, and I remember one of my friends, he's three years older than me, in his mind he said when the strike started in Ainsk that the wall will collapse one day.

1:04:42We knew it. The tipping point is coming. We didn't know how soon, but we felt in our gut that one day it will collapse because we understood the mockery of the system, the stupidity of it. We knew that they would be faking data and then the TV program would be just showing how beautiful life is and getting better and even nicer just around the corner. Just hang in, guys. Just be patient. And we knew that this is just propaganda. And they couldn't turn the tide back. The masses were becoming more and more aware of that. Had they kept us in the dark, I believe, if the school was not oriented academically, probably it would have kept them longer at power, in my opinion.

1:05:47Ian Sanders:so this shipbuilding engineering program as part of that you happen to be in august 1980 in the same shipyard that lech valenza is in at the time that solidarity the polish free trade union is founded. Can you describe the shipyard, what it was like to be there and what you hear about and what happens? I'm sorry, we're going to have to leave it there. Bogdan will continue his story next week. He has also written a book titled From Communist Paradise to Freedom, what$300, two suitcases and 30 years taught me about starting over. There'll be links in the episode information for you to buy the book and help support the podcast.

1:06:48Ian Sanders:Want to learn more about this episode? Don't miss the extras such as curated videos, photos and other content. Just look for the link in the episode information. Special thanks to the generous efforts of our financial supporters who keep the show on the air. if you'd like to join this select band go to coldwarconversations.com slash donate the cold war conversation continues in our facebook discussion group just search for cold war conversations on facebook thanks very much for listening and see you next week

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