MiGs, Helicopters and Ideology: Life as an East German Air Force Officer (468)

0:00Welcome to Cold War Conversations, the home of real stories of the Cold War.

0:34I see you. I was in charge to protect my country, my family, against the possible aggressive capitalism system. What did it mean to train as an officer in the East German Air Force, where technical skill, military discipline and socialist ideology were inseparable? Roland recalls his journey into the East German Air Force, from dreams of flying MiG fighters to the demanding realities of officer training and service with the MI-8 helicopter. He describes the long days, intensive political instruction and constant expectation that war with NATO could erupt at any moment. Everyday life also depended on friendships, professionalism and the determination to keep complex Soviet-built machines flying.

1:23Roland offers a rare first-hand account into one of the Warsaw Pact's most secretive forces, revealing how young East Germans were prepared to defend the GDR and what happened when Gorbachev's reforms and growing unrest began to challenge everything they had been taught. I'm delighted to welcome Roland to our Cold War conversation. There's one thing I'd like to start with. All the things, timeframes, episodes we are talking about right now, based on my personal memories. It is at least 40 to 50 years way back into the past. Thank you. And that's completely understood, Roland. I'm going to be asking you questions about things that happened a long time ago, but I'm hoping you'll be able to recall most of it.

2:13Where I start with all of my guests is when and where were you born? Yes, I was born in July 1963 in Grevesmühlen. It's a very small village, round about 50 kilometers far away from Lübeck, but in the eastern part of Germany. Who was in your family with you there? at that time i'm the eldest of four children so at that point in my family was my mom my dad and later on i got two sisters one brother and my parents lived right there at the family we only stayed there for roughly two years so i was too small and then we went to the next part of germany The only thing I remember is that it was like a small farm, as my parents told me, but we moved very early from there.

3:10What did your parents do for a living? What did they work as? Yeah, it's an interesting thing. My mother is a trained gardener. She got an apprenticeship right there and walked that way around. But due to the point that I got two sisters, one brother, she was at home for a very long time. and my father was an official in the GDR youth organizations, the FDOT, and he wasn't at home so much. Were either of your parents members of the SED? Yes. So my father, due to his job at least, he got trained as a farmer but later swapped over to the job as an official in the youth organization. He was a party member, yes.

3:59And my mother, a lot of years later, also joined the SED. What were their feelings about the government? Were they fans of the SED or was being a member something that was just necessary for career progression? Just as I managed, so my father worked for the youth organization. It was exactly the thing he believed in to do the right things for a very long time. and now he's at the age over 80 and at one point in his life he was still on and he said my mother I think was at the point she just followed her husband so we moved from to different places but I think yes my father did my father did it in the way to be fully at that point it's necessary to be a party member.

4:50Understood. And did you have any relatives in West Germany? Yes, we had relatives, but I didn't know that until the war came down. I never get informed. It was the family of my mother, but we never talked about it. So I never met my grandma, and I don't know if there was any other relatives. My parents never told me that I had some relatives in the western part of Germany. I guess they kept that a secret because it made life less complicated. Yeah, it's one point. The other point might be due to the job my father did, that he didn't want to know that there are some relatives in the western part of Germany.

5:35Can you tell me about what your home was like, where you were living, after you moved from the small village? Yes, a few stations to say that way in between. The next step was we went to a town, Ratano. It's a few kilometers from far away from Potsdam, where my grandparents, the parents of my father, lived in a small house right there. Then a few years later, we swapped over to Potsdam. So there was a block of flats where we lived in. And that was a point where I found my way longer. So in between Rathenau and Potsdam, there was a small village, let's say a village, 2 ,000 inhabitants, roughly, Willemshorst, also near Potsdam.

6:22And there we lived in a, let's say, old villa, two-story villa on the top floor. And that was a point where I got my first education and everything. And can you tell me about your schooling? What was that like? It was a right-managed that was a small, let's say, small school. So there I did my general certificate of secondary education on my 10 classes. The classes were very small, just 10 to 11 people. And he was always in the focus of the teacher. He couldn't hide by such a value. and though as I managed I had two sisters one brother it was a time that I learned at a very young age to take responsibility for my brother my sisters to pick them up to bring them to school to take them back from school to do homeworks and everything and yeah it was at that point small village small classes but be responsible for that things to bring them there were different buildings in that village for different classes I had to swap them around and keep an eye on them so that was a point to get the 1 to 10 classes GC and after that I started an apprenticeship we went to Potsdam and that was the next step I had to manage at least I just want to understand what your education so you had the primary education and then did you have secondary education or was the apprenticeship part of the secondary education no it's and it's we have to go back a little bit in the history of education system in the former GDR you got the chance to do class 1 to 10 so the general certificate and then you could reach the A-level later by doing some things.

8:22My point was that I found the way to get an apprenticeship combined with reaching the A-level. So the apprenticeship was one part to get a trained worker. And at the same time, it was a period of three and a half years to reach the A-level to get the possibility to go get access to the university. What was the apprenticeship in? What What particular skills were you studying? Okay, that was one of the points just connected to the things I would like to do later. So it was the point to, how to explain it, in engineering, just a point of mechanical engineering and regulation systems. And so we moved to Potsdam and nearby was a town, Toto, and there I got the chance to do my apprenticeship.

9:17and to specialize for measurement, regulation systems, automation systems at the standard at this time, at the beginning of the 80s. So there was apprenticeship as a to-do and to assemble things, electrical things that was a part and even additional to reach the A-level. What was your first job after you'd completed your apprenticeship? So it was a very, very short period. And I just, after finishing the apprenticeship, I only did it for one or two months, because then I started my career at the NVA Academy, the former Air Force Academy. And it's round about this period you meet your wife, I think you told me.

10:08Yes, it was one of the lucky points. By even starting the apprenticeship, my wife was right there in, let's say, that factory we met. We spent a few time and fell in love to say at the point I met there and we are now married for more than 42, don't hit me, 43 years. It was a long way for her, but it's one of the lucky points of my life to meet her right there at the point. Absolutely, absolutely. That's always good to hear about long marriages. Always good to hear. So you've volunteered to serve in the NVA. Is that correct? That's absolutely correct. Yes, I did it at that point. And the decision was made in, let's say, a few years.

10:58During that time, at the end of the GCE and starting the apprenticeship at that point, yes, I volunteered to get the chance to study at the NVA Air Force Academy to become an officer in the Air Force. Yes. What year was this you started there? I started my studies right there in 1983 Did you have an idea of what your role was going to be in the East German Air Force at that point or did they decide that later in the course of your studies? It's one of the points who changed my life before I started the studies so the dream was like every boy or young man at that age to fly the jets to be on pilot to get the chance to fly big jets and everything.

11:50And that was just a dream. And one other point behind was if you grew up in that system, connected with a dream of flying was the idea to protect your country, your home, everything else. But it doesn't work that way. We can discuss it or I can explain it right now. We can also come a little bit later back to that point. I think it would be necessary to say right now a little bit to explain it. But it was my dream. I went to the checkups. There was physical checks, psychological, everything they checked. And the answer was right now at that point, before I started the studies, that there was a small health problem.

12:36And I couldn't reach the aim to get a pilot. later after the war came down i learned that they canceled it because i had relatives in the west they were afraid that a young guy getting the chance to fly a plane would flee to the western part of germany or somewhere to the world yes that was just the start the next point they offered me was to become an air force engineer to to do the studies as an air force engineer and there i started at August, right after the apprenticeship in August 1983. What sort of aircraft were you studying on while you were training to be an officer? So it was a long way.

13:22And at that point, we got the chance to get trained on the MiG series right there. I think it was MiG-1721. the MiG-23 was the newest stage of the art at that time also we got trained at some parts of the helicopters the MiL series so MiL-2 and Mi-8 and even as a MiG-23 was at that time the Mi-24 the let's call it flying tank at that time so that was the points we get trained or even we got the basic knowledge and we're trained to to handle that because right after the studies should be decided where we started our jobs after that how long was it until you graduated as a second lieutenant so it is a period of four years it was a very long period and a very long time and the day the 29th of august 83 i will never forget because i had a wife and also son at that time and left home only packed with a bag with some personal belongings inside my wife and a little son were at home and i at that point didn't know when i get next time the chance to see them and as i learned a little bit later it took more than three months just to come in contact with them afterwards by starting this wow that must have been quite quite tough for you leaving them particularly with a leaving your wife with a young child like that yes indeed but as i managed we are married until now it was a heavy decision and we didn't exactly know what it was but it was my point dreaming of aeronautics and we managed it and she had a long way and a lot of time even later on as my daughter was born to stay and to grew them up i wasn't at home so much in that times yeah she gave you a lot of support to live your dreams in a in aviation yes indeed That was a dream of aviation.

15:41It was not basically to become, at her point of view, an officer of the NVA. For me, it was connected. If you have a father who is a functioneer in that organization, you grew up that way. So it was a conclusion and connected at that point. Understood. Did you have weapons training during that course as well? Yes, indeed. I think it's like everybody who had to serve in the forces, even the conscripted. There was the Kalashnikov to learn to disassemble it, to reassemble it, to do some shootings. During the studies, on the way to become an officer, the pistol, yes. And later on, some anti-tank grenades, but basically Kalashnikov and Makarov.

16:30And in addition, the training courses to load and reload the planes and helicopters for the weapon stations to handle these things around, this way around, yes. So the cannons and rockets on the aircraft that you were maintaining. Yes. So to load up all the rounds for the cannon or to underneath the fuselage to bring on the equipment which was necessary, yes, indeed. And being an officer, you must have had quite a lot of ideological focus as well in the training. Indeed. So it was not saying the main, but a big part of. You got your courses every day. So it was connected not even with physical and psychological things.

17:20There was a lot of, at now a point and point of indoctrination to protect the freedom in the world, to protect your family, your home and everything else. Yes, indeed. So it's long ago, but I think a third of studies might be the Ajalodigil Park. Yes, part. I think so. Wow. That's a big chunk there. so you graduate as a second lieutenant where are you first posted to and what year is that's going to be 87 87 yeah four years later at the august 87 so it was a point in a few two months roughly before we get graduated the personal managers the guys who had some talks and they decided where you had to go to and i think that was one point that i already was married had two children at home so i was posted to the helicopter transport squadron 34 it is look was located in Brandenburg on the Havel.

18:38It's roughly 80 kilometers from Berlin. And at that time, my family, we lived in Potsdam. So it was just a distance of 30 kilometers, 38. And I think this year or one year later, we managed it to move from Potsdam to arrange a flat that the family could come and live in Brandenburg right there. So I had the chance to do my job and the family was right there. We found a new job for my wife. It was a big steel producing industry and we found a job for her. So that was the first point. Air transport, a squadron equipped with eight helicopters. And what did your role consist of? what were you actually doing there?

19:31And you're an officer, so you're in command of a number of men as well. So that is one of the things if you talk with officers of the NVA in the aviation, the system just was on the point to let you start in the Air Force with one aircraft in your personal responsibility. There was a crew of non-commissioned officers, the one for the airframe, one for the weapon systems engine. So I started, it was called the unit one chain. One chain was managed for four helicopters. So I started as a young second lieutenant in charge for 1V8 helicopter with a crew of NCOs. Later on, in a very short period, you grew up and took over the responsibility for four helicopters, so was the chief of a chain of helicopters.

20:28Cold War history deserves to be remembered, and by listening to the next few adverts, you help us to do exactly that. Thank you.

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21:32So as an officer, you were in charge to train the crews. So there was one saying, a technical flight game. So between the flights, you had to assemble your crew. There was one NCO who was flying with the pilots, the technicians, to assemble them and to train them to keep their knowledge on, to check the knowledge, to bring them to the new start, and to the level and to keep the level. I think that was one of the parts. The next part, out of the crew training, there was a unit I was a leader on a few months later, which was in charge if you replace main parts of a helicopter, for example. So engines or the main gearbox and everything in a special maintenance area.

22:26Flight parts have lifetimes, flight hours and data by year. And if you take off or if you replace one engine, there's a lot of stuff to do to bring the plane back to flight. Ground runnings, hover checks, basic flights. And that also was part of my responsibility. In addition, to be a leader of such a crew, to bring back the planes to fly it after main part changes. If East Germany had gone to war with NATO, did you have any training around what might happen if your airfield was attacked or anything like that? yes indeed so it was just to go back to the studies that was all the part of the education to to to keep the airfield safe it was all the part of combat training to man-to-man fights and everything and i think once a year half a year regularly you had to polish up this by let's say simulated alarm, but you never could know if it is a sharp one or simulated.

23:38You had to, your guys for, with special non-structural, it was groups which were prepared to handle an attack to the airfield, to chemical weapons, biological weapons. Yes, it was part of the training too. And yes, we were trained and you had to keep on your knowledge by doing it regularly. people i spoke to worked on that nato airfield same same exercises and things like that just to make sure that everybody knows the job they do in that situation yes it's to my jobs i later did to check and so there should be a routine you shouldn't think a lot of you just to get it in your mind and just do it in that way and to keep it on yes were you able to see your wife more often because they were in the same area as you.

24:32Did you go home there each night or not? During, let's go back to the four years of study, as I managed at the beginning, three months now, and that was four years, and you usually got the chance to go home for a short weekend. So Friday, 12 o 'clock to Sunday, 29 at 9 in the evening, and bank holidays, you got two weeks to see your family. So it was a very tough time. After being promoted as an officer and be stationed at Brandenburg Air Base, I got the chance. As I managed shift working 60 days a week, but it was a distance I could cover by bicycle. So I wore my uniform and I had to go for 20, 30 minutes through a forest with a shortcut to go to the base.

25:26But even at that point, as I started my job in the morning, she didn't exactly know if I would be back or if there were some shifts to go and to fly to somewhere to manage some tasks. So regularly, yes. We see us at least if there was no exercise on Sundays or depending on the shift. If you do the night shift, I went home and she went to work. okay but yes there was a chance that was the way how it works at that time the people you were commanding were any of them conscripts or were they also professional it was as i managed a little bit earlier the guys who were in charge for the helicopters the airframe specialists the weapon specialists avionics they were sergeants corporates that way they were a very small bunch of conscripts and they were in charge for the guard, for example, on the front or to do the guarding tasks or to drive at least a lorry or something else.

26:32There was not much of the conscripts, but one of these sergeants, he was at that time, he's now the Lord Mayor of our city. And if we met each other every time, high sergeant, high captain nowadays, he always calls me lieutenant so the guys did it even touch not the sergeants but the guys who decided to serve for three years to get better access to the university afterwards so a lot of corporals with 10 15 year contracts some three years but less very small amount of conscript guys yes because of the complexity of what you were working with i guess yes you don't want to train somebody and then lose them in a six months or a year doesn't make any sense no what were your officers like that you were responsible to okay it's a lot i think like everywhere you had a big collection the the seniors the the young let's say hot ones that was a proper mix of everything by looking back right now to that time.

27:42So the greyback gorillas, which had everything clear in their hands. Officers like my age who wanted to grow up and do. The technicians and also the guys, the deputies of the commander being in charge for political reasons, for example. They studied at the Russian Academy or somewhere else. So you had a good mix of everything, let's say this way around, to describe it in a short way. Did you ever have to work with Soviet or any other Warsaw Pact troops? At my part, exactly, it wasn't the case. But as I managed, I started 87. So 89, the wall came down. There was not a long period to get the chance to manage or to take part on big maneuvers there was maybe a visit of some russian officers but concrete and maneuver how to check how work the planes helicopters together i didn't take part on at the time what were your feelings about the way the country was being run at the time because this is towards the end of the 80s when things start to stop working as they had done yeah that it's it was a question let's go a little bit back to explain my personal feelings if you grew up in that system as i explained already and if you study of four years and usually even the areas where the jet planes and everything was stationed was a little bit separated from the let's say from the government from the people all around so at the beginning it was just a feeling of having on the top of the government some old men not wise old men but some old men which should be replaced in a further time but not the 100 proper thing to say it had to be right now that was my wife she was working at the steel company and she was putting my nose on that points every time asking questions but right now it was it was not comfortable for me but it was good that i had a wife with both feeds in the life to put my nose on that points and even to discuss it and to find out late yes so she so because she was working in a factory outside of the military she was telling you how people were really feeling in the country and what they were saying to her yeah if you are busy with six six days a week you don't spend a lot of time on sunday to get contact to other ones but we had one year or something else before the wall came down, a small garden outside.

30:29So my wife came back and there on Sunday at your leisure time, you had time to have a beer with your neighbours coming from all parts out there and to get a, let's say, more clearer picture of what happened right now. You are focused on your job for six days a week at least. How much pressure was there on you to join the scd it was yes at that point to be honest it was the right conclusion at that time if you go to study at the air force academy for the gdr if you want to protect your home country and if you had in your mind or you get trained on that idea that the soviet troops are responsible to the deliverance from the Nazi regime and to live in a country which stands at that point for peace, for having a good home for you and your children and not living in a capitalist state.

31:40When you get trained to learn that capitalism leads again to a war, it was not too much pressure it was a decision which grew up during that times to get a partner and yes i got a partner member too it was a natural choice particularly with the ideological information you were being fed to to do that yes for sure it was a bad time part of my understanding to if you do that job, if you have your aims, despite from the aeronautical things, but as I manage, if you have four years and a father doing that job before, it was the right conclusion and the right thing to be a party member or to become a party member right there.

32:26Yeah. You must have considered America, Britain, NATO an enemy at that time. Did you ever think that a war would happen? Or did you think it's never going to happen? To be honest, that was part of my job and of the ideology. Yes, it could happen that the aggressive capitalism not divided in Brits, Americans, France, even as a system where I was in charge to protect my country, my family, against the possible aggressive capitalism system. Yes. Yeah. to be honest that's it yeah as i said before it was that it was towards the end of the 80s that you were serving there how were you treated by the public in uniform was there respect for the uniform then so you you have to keep in mind that the only the uniform itself so every family had a son a brother a nephew an uncle who was a conscripted one so the government forced everyone to surf for 18 months.

33:37So the uniform by its own wasn't a problem at all because neither. If you was in front of a railway station wearing the uniform, everybody got the idea to help you, to bring you in the short period you got release or time off to bring you to your family. So basically, it wasn't a problem to wear the uniform. The problem for me was there was a small difference. You could see on my epaulets, on my shoulder, that I'm on the way to study. There was an S for study marked and some bars for the years I left. And that made a difference indeed, because that was a clear sign that you seem to be very close to the ideas of the government.

34:23There was a difference in between. Did you have any instances where people reacted to that?

34:35Yeah, two different. One was the point that a guy stopped the car, just had a closer look and said, okay, you will earn a lot of money. It's your point and just drove away. The other point was a car stopped and a guy jumped out. He was a commander of a tank and he said, hey, guy went in and drove me direct to the front of my home door. So there was different experiences at that time. Where were you stationed in 1989? Same place. Were you still in Brandenburg? Yes, I was still stationed in Brandenburg. At that point, yes, right here. And at that point, also, I just kept the idea that I would stay here before the ball came down for a longer period and to grow up right at that airfield.

35:24So you thought the rest of your career was almost going to be in the same place. Yes. Otherwise, if you want to go once again to higher academies and swap over, but that wasn't my planning. I was satisfied with being reunited with my family. There was no plans to go away for the next years. When did you first notice that things weren't okay in the GDR? Yeah, the first signs of unrest as I already managed. So my wife put my nose in, my neighbors at the small garden we had put the nose in and also another point when i go back to that times we were used to bring our helicopters for a general overhaul to hungary though there was a big factory which did it for all the warship guys and so there was an aeronautical plant in in Hungary and the crews which came back at that time from there went off and they had on their flight suits a small hidden button with Gorbachev flying as a superman.

36:34So the wind of change swapped over from Hungary and they came back with other ideas with some points to discuss. So the discussion started right there with that guys coming back and the flying Gorbachev Superman was a nice button, but a thing to start, and even to start inside your groups of comrades to realize and to open a little bit the mind to discuss at that point, really. Yes. So that was the first science I noticed. So within your group, you were discussing the unrest and that things needed to change. Yes, but to keep that picture clear, clear for my mind. You didn't outside and discuss all the problems, how to change the system, because you had always the guys from the Stasi on your side, even in your units.

37:30And you had also guys which didn't want to change. And it was a very, let's say, not shy, but slowly starting process, even to check who is worth to discuss it, who can you trust. It was a longer way, But it started at that time, well, round about that time. But it sounds like there were some tensions in the NVA between the GDR believers and the non-believers. Yes, indeed. And there was also through all the group of ages, there were believers which strongly stood on that point. There is no change need. And the other ones, pilots, technicians, who was on the way to say, if you open your eyes, If you see your families, if you see what happened in our hometown, you couldn't deny that.

38:19Yes, there was seriously the point. And even the party, the ACD, was on the way to avoid such discussions. There was, if I remember right, there was a saying of one of that functioneers, according to Gorbachev and what he did, that he opened in one of the newspapers. was, listen, if your neighbor is on the way to refurbish his flat, you don't have to do it that way around either. So there was serious discussions, yes. Yeah, I seem to remember it. It was one of the members of the Politburo. I think it was along the lines of, if your neighbor changes their wallpaper, you don't need to change yours.