S22 Ep1: Dame Zandra Rhodes: Building a legacy whilst defying convention

0:00Age is what you make it. You are never too old or wrinkly for a second or third act. Run at life head on. Go to bed in your make-up, eat too much bread and butter pudding and always fill your world with colour. you'll have to excuse me as i've just a bit overexcited i've just interviewed a legend of the fashion world a complete icon the one and only dame zandra rhodes known for that dramatic distinctive design and her love of color zandra has been a leading figure in the british design world for, can you believe this, six decades. And it felt as though I was sitting with a kindred spirit because I suppose here was a woman, she's navigated every dip and turn of that rollercoaster, professionally and personally, setbacks, loss, cancer, business going well, business not going well.

0:58But she's ready to face another day, makeup on, hair as pink as ever, and just, I don't know, just fabulous. She was fabulous. I'm in awe. So whatever you're listening, maybe you're walking, you're in the car, in the workshop, this conversation is going to inspire and motivate and ignite. And you might just want to dye your hair pink again, as I did after this episode. Enjoy. Bow your head and let your eyelids close on down. Where we're going, you won't need to bring your Hi, I'm Holly Tucker and welcome to my podcast, Conversations of Inspiration. I've reached out to founders and those who simply inspire me to share their hard-earned wisdom with you.

1:47My hope is that collectively, these remarkable realizations will help you on your own journey. I like to think of it as inspiration for life. So, let's begin this week's Conversation of Inspiration. Sandra, it's a dream to be sitting in front of you. As I developed my business and over the last 20 years, there are few women for me that represented not only being an icon, but everything that you represent actually means a lot to me. And I look up to you. So to be sitting in front of the woman right now, thank you for joining Conversations of Inspiration. Well, thank you for asking me. And you look wonderful.

2:32so you've obviously dressed for the part. Well, actually, this is how I actually dress. And so this is, there are a few people who turn up in colour and colour actually has been a really great therapist for me. Colour makes you feel happy. Yeah. When you go out there, I think we're the few rather than the norm. And so actually to meet you, sitting with you, I feel like I've met a kindred spirit. Oh good, except I'm in a warm woolly jumper today. well pink and we've got and what's what brooch is that Andrew Logan fried egg I was going to say gorgeous so yes I'm going to take a pitch everyone but we I'm looking at a fried egg and a beautiful woman with pink hair how's your day been so far we're sitting in this amazing place but I read when researching you that you're always someone who likes to be made up and that your morning routine I mean this if I couldn't love you more I'm just going to keep on saying this Your morning routine is washing off your makeup from the night before before reapplying it again.

3:35Now, for me, that is just refreshing. It's different in this whole world where we've got retinals and serums and God knows what and tick tock this and tick tock that. Tell me, so the morning's an important part of your day? The morning's important. I have my bath and then I wash around. If I'm really late, I wash around the makeup. If I'm doing okay, I wash off and then put it on. But otherwise, I just reapply on top. Reapply on top. And has that always been the way? And I never go out without makeup. Never. Never. So that is your signature, who you are. It's who I am. And it's the same if I was in bed.

4:15I still have the makeup on. Sorry, I'm getting practical here. Does it rub off on the pillow? No, you can come down and have a look. I don't have any marks on my sheets. Of course, it'll probably start happening now, but I don't have any marks on my sheets. And then when I dye my hair, I put the pink dye on, I put a plastic hat on and a black towel over my pillowcase and I sleep that night with it on. With that on, yeah. I just, it's fantastic. You've got the signature style and I'm going to get into so much about your life, but I just ask these questions that people will be thinking about and then I'm going to talk about your book as well.

4:53So we're going to cover so much, but your vibrant hair, big jewellery, beautiful colour clothes. As I just mentioned, expressing yourself through your style, almost like a window to your soul, potentially maybe an armour, I don't know, through your career or something that's made you feel strong. How has it played a part, not for you fashion designing, but almost for you personally? I think as a designer, you represent your work. Like sometimes people say to me, would you wear someone else's clothes? And I say, I don't wear anyone else's clothes because if I'm saying to people, oh, you should have a Zandra Rhodes, then if I'm not wearing a Zandra Rhodes, what am I advertising?

5:39Do you know what I mean? It's my living. So you want people to say, oh, didn't know it could look so good and it doesn't matter how old you are. Do you know what I mean? So that they can see that they can wear them. It's interesting because over the years, talking to small businesses and mentoring them and how often potentially people feel that they need to be separated out from their brand. You know, so almost, I mean, my company is called Holly & Co. I can't be more in my brand and yourself. What do you feel about that sort of, some people would say, am I giving too much? you know it's all of me going into this company and it's a and it's a business and actually I should have you know work-life balance in this separation and I've got a feeling you might have a different take on that I don't separate myself from my work at all so actually I mean like I say I go out in things that I've designed other things like my jewelry are designed by friends Andrew Logan I wear nearly all his jewelry and he used to make it for all my shows and I'd use if I was doing a show of work that I was doing, needing them.

6:46So, I mean, I suppose I'm always representing my own image. And what would you say to people listening about that idea of having to be separate, almost two separate things? Do you think there is merit in actually going all in and being the biggest brand ambassador to what you do and living and breathing it 24 hours a day? I suppose it does depend. on what sort of brand you do. So if you've got what I would call maybe a classic brand, then obviously no one's going to notice if you're wearing the right bit of that or not. Whereas if I'm representing an exotic Sandra Rhodes print on a Celia B dress, then, you know, they're going to see me coming.

7:33But I love it. And I've been wearing the summer dresses with sweaters underneath, looking really bright at Christmas. It was lovely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I try and help people embrace what they're doing, especially as most companies I deal with are creative. And I'm just almost like, you know, when you walk into a room, how are people going to remember you? What are they going to take? What's your aura like? How do you make people feel? But also, how do you represent what you do? And don't worry so much if it is who you are, your company. You know, it's a great thing, actually. You know, it makes you unforgettable, so to speak.

8:10If you're designing something and you're saying, I really believe in this for my summer holidays or I want to wear that for Christmas. If you're wearing it, people can see that you'd wear it for Christmas and you love it. And yeah, and that's authentic. And that's authentic. And it's all there is to say. Yeah, absolutely. So I'm going to go back to the younger Zandra. Six decades you've been in this illustrious career. but I wanted to start where it all began which is in Chatham in Kent where you grew up with your sister Beverly and I know you dedicated your book partially to her as well and you were surrounded by your mother's sewing magazines and your mum Beatrice she worked as a fitter in Paris and before becoming a lecturer at the now University of Creative Arts and so many of my guests I've been lucky enough to interview you can see this golden thread I call it from childhood that's a lovely way of putting it childhood to now where these early passions or someone was exploring something and then suddenly that's what they've ended up doing you had a doll called Jacqueline who you dressed was it a creative home growing up thanks to your mum oh my mother was well she always looked exotic like none of the other mothers she wore lots of makeup she put in right in the first chapter i talk about how she pinned her hair in a wonderful curl up in the front and she sprayed it silver and then of course one time we were going up to london to do christmas shopping and she she's we're rushing around because we have to get the six o 'clock train to london and she sprays her hair and then we get on the bus and she says my head does sting my head does sting and she sprayed herself with the fly killer instead of instead of the hair setting lotion so she had to live with it all day with this stinging head but what what what decade would that have been in that she was dressing in that way that would have been in the 50s so absolutely not what you would have seen not typical of chatham no not typical of chatham how did it go down were you proud of her standing out when I look back I'm very proud of her standing out but when we used to have she used to come for our school open days she didn't look like any other mother and I'd say mummy you don't look like any other mother you know she'd be in wedged green crocodile shoes and a very nice jacket you know all of which she'd made so very it was like Parisian fashion in Chatham, which some people at my school, some girls might not even have been to London, you know.

10:58So it was... Where did it come from? Have you traced back, going back further from your mum? Like, how did your mum have that to be so daring at a time where it really wasn't the norm? I mean, now, you know, you can get away with basically anything. When I think about it now, a girl from Chatham who then went to Paris to work as a fitter in Worth in Paris. She just went over and she always told me about this story because she'd go in and she'd say, yes, she could do the job. But just in case she couldn't, she'd go up to the head fitter and say, look, I'm new and I don't want to do it how you don't want it.

11:39You do a bit for me and show me how you want it done. Clever. So she obviously had a lot of nous, as they say, and really went over there all by herself to France. She couldn't speak French. I mean, it was amazing. Extraordinary, actually, when you think about that. And then in my childhood, she was always at her sewing machine and it wasn't electric. It would have been a treadle in those days. Yeah, unbelievable. And then all these lovely French magazines and Queen magazine with all these exotic models on them, you know. So I had that to live with, even though it was in Chatham. It's quite incredible, actually, isn't it, when someone blossoms.

12:19I mean, that's what she did. She blossomed out of what wouldn't have been expected from her. I read you had more of a tricky relationship with your father, Albert. But actually, when writing your memoir, you uncovered the truth about your grandmother's tragic death. But tell me about what the impact was of uncovering more about your father. It was, in the end, when I was doing the book with Ella, we'd sit for whole days talking about things and it was very cathartic in a way because I'd never, my father was exactly like Elf Garnet in Death Do Us Part. Right. And I mean, I never wanted people to see him.

12:59Children are horrible snobs, you know, so that it wasn't like you had a father that you thought people could respect. It was very, you know, they were so different. and I mean they'd met ballroom dancing and he did look like Errol Flynn and he you know he would have been very elegant my mother could have made the most amazing ball gowns so I suppose they had that in common but not he didn't then I felt he should have then strived to have bettered himself but I don't know I just as I say I think children are just snobs yeah and and tell me about the sort sort of through your book, you uncovered more and more knowledge about your family.

13:43Well, that was really my sister's grandchild who got into going to, what's that? Ancestry. Yes. So she was delving into all these things and finding out about this terrible murder because I was never told about that. I just knew that his, I thought she was a prostitute and she'd been murdered. isn't it yes yeah your father's mother who was thought that was murdered that was murdered in the streets yes in the streets it was never talked about yeah so it was only really when doing this book yeah that it all came to light the reality of the whole thing which actually she was murdered by her well one of her lovers that was a tenant in the building you know but I suppose in a small town like Chatham it would have been really big publicity at that time big news you sort of forget also how much in those days things weren't I mean big news but almost maybe not spoken about why it wasn't told to you what the the truth is I mean I think as we go back I know from personal experience you know just so much wasn't spoken about the war You know, you keep going through and people kept things to themselves.

15:01We speak a lot more now, don't we, about our lives, I suppose. You know, so, I mean, it's just sort of, and I don't even know if my father even knew if I knew. Do you see what I mean? Yes, yeah. So it was all sort of very strange. So going from there, you were quite academic at school when you left and you went to the Medway Royal College of Art and then to the Royal College, the Royal College of Art. Yes. It was early 60s. I read that David Hockney was there. You were inspired by Warhol and everything was happening. It must have been. I would love to go there for one week, just one week to experience what that must have been like.

15:41What was that time like for you? We were in the brand new building by the Elbert Hall. Yeah. So it was a very grand building. We were the first group of students in there and then you'd glimpse David Hockney who was a third year. I was only a first year. and all these was he big stuff then he within my first year he was really very famous by then he started to have his work up and everything you know what I mean and he dyed his hair blonde I mean and in those days that was really way out right do you know what I mean so it was like um it was a fantastic time to be at the Royal College yeah amazing and did you have a feeling I mean, you can do it in hindsight, can't you?

16:22But did you have a feeling then this might be not normal? It just felt very electric. We had a whole group of students and everyone worked really hard. Do you know what I mean? It was a time when it was a college ball at the end of the year. It was the Beatles. We were dancing to people who could play the Beatles songs. And I had thick black. I didn't make myself up like this then, but I still had black hair. and then I had great big false eyelashes. And the head of the college called me death on the roads. Was that endearing? You know, I mean, I don't know why, but I mean, he remembered my false eyelashes.

17:04You remembered your false eyelashes. And you worked six days a week. You just were, I read that you were there, you know, six days a week, closed on a Sunday in those days, but you basically more or less lived there. That this was your... They're nearly all the time, but it was my life then. It was lovely. I'd walked from, I lived in South Kensington and I just walked to college. And then at night we'd go to the, we could go to the college bar and I can always remember the guys were always playing darts. Yeah. But there was also a wonderful film. You could see, they showed really wonderful, classic old films like Eisenstein and things.

17:44So it was an inspirational time. My hands were usually bright green because still in those days I was a textile designer. And I started to be interested. When I first went, textiles were wallpapers and wonderful fabrics hanging down. And I was taken up to Manchester to see what Manchester was like. And it was raining and grey. and then I got into doing textile designs and getting in touch with the um the dress school with Janie Ironside and I was doing bright prints that were like flags because it was flags and Andy Warhol type things so I worked I went between the Royal College um students department I printed garments some of which were fabrics which were used by Ozzie Clark you know so I I really got into wanting to do dress fabrics.

18:37And then when I left Royal College and as one of their prize students, they said, we'll take you on a trip up to Manchester. And I showed them my work all carefully there and they'd look at it and then they'd laugh and they'd show me, look at this fabric. And it was a horrible texture. We sold a million yards of this. I mean, they weren't going to buy any of mine. So the college then said, well, why don't you go directly to Carnaby Street? So I went to Carnaby Street to two girls called Follett, Marion Foll and Sally Tuffin, who were making very trendy dresses. And I did prints with stars and prints with very exotic swirls of fabric and then insisted as we did it that my name was always quoted if it was done in a magazine.

19:28so I really people got to know me for doing those fabrics yeah for foal and tuffin and then after two years they said oh we're they were going on to some other theme and they didn't need me anymore and then I I met Sylvia Aiton while I was teaching two days a week and Sylvia and I formed a little company called Sylvia Aiton and Zandra Rhodes and we made dresses and we made some clothes for Vanessa Redgrave and she ended up giving a deposit for us to open a shop in the Fulham Road in the wrong part of Fulham Road but we had Jo Cocker to open it playing a very exotic gala with her gorgeous auburn hair so we opened it with a great big bang and then it closed with a bang a year later because of where it was located location and we were doing we were making the dresses hand to mouth yeah I was yeah go I was teaching two days a week and so was Sylvia I'd rush to my studio and print the fabric yeah clothes yeah and you know and then it would go out just to a small dressmaker so it was very hand to mouth so that ended and Sylvia got a job as head designer for Wallace, which she did for years, beautifully.

20:49And I was thinking, well, I don't want to teach. And so English, I made some clothes, I made some caftans and some printed yellow felt coats. And I had a close friend who was a librarian who went to Royal College and he showed me how to make patterns. So I made the patterns and cut things out and then I got a machinist to make them. And then through English Vogue, they gave me a letter of introduction to Deanna Vreeland in New York. And it really all happened from there. And it happened from there. My goodness. When that person was telling you about this grey fabric that you just definitely didn't want anything to do with and you had your vision basically in fabrics what was it that you believe you capture that you knew then you know you knew then that actually the majority of people were going to reject you from that sort of course because that was what happens and that's what sells and that's what's got the margin but you decided quite you know this pattern this bright you said I was reading about your knitted landscape scarf that you talk about in your book and you said my first choice is always the bright colour way what is it about pattern and colour that you thought even if it isn't the majority's cup of tea I'm still going to do it I sometimes don't understand I mean maybe things there are things in us that make you do something regardless of anything else and you think this is going to work and I don't know it was a time of pop art and it was yeah friends were encouraging do you know what I mean so it was just a time when it felt right to do all those things yeah and maybe that's what it takes that it feels right for you and that actually that's how everything starts you know everything that we might think oh that's not you know that goes against the grain of that time we need the beacons like yourself to introduce it into society I mean maybe that's what it is you know like sometimes when I mean I try out makeups and I think I don't know one of my boyfriends I think there's a comment in the book where you know he found he thought I looked a bit extreme you know but I never thought about it I just did it and that was it yeah it wasn't is it all right to go out looking like this yeah so women we can tend to ask permission or need validation from boyfriends people around us did you really feel like your mum in a way now you look back do you feel like you've never needed to be similar or have permission or the the comment of him saying you're extreme did that bother you um it didn't do you know what I mean I mean I've I've just sort of do it and go out and then it's only sometimes when you realise people look in a certain way that you do something different, but it comes naturally to decide to do it that way.

23:55And it's never bothered you to stand out. Oh, no, that doesn't. I mean, it was funny. I had a letter from a long while ago now, a girl who was at school with me. She said, oh, congratulations on how's your career gone. I'm really sorry that we always used to laugh at you on the bus. Well, I must have the thickest skin in the world because I didn't know they were laughing at me on the bus. That's so good. That's so good. So it's maybe just the thick skin. Maybe it's the thick skin. That's the thing. We've got to thicken up if anyone out there is being bothered. I remember speaking to Jenny Peckham about her beautiful gowns and we were talking about the power of emotionally connecting to your customer and that you want to look good in your clothes but actually it's the transformation that can happen.

24:49And I know I can speak from personal experience, you know, growing my companies and there was a certain point where I feel like I became a cookie cutter of what people were expecting I needed to become almost to grow up and become a businesswoman. You know, I needed to wear this and this is what you do. And I need to look basically more like a man, basic. I just needed to fit in in a way. And you didn't feel at home until you changed that? I would say I didn't until, you know, and I had these moments in my career where it all came crashing down. And it was through rising from those ashes that my colour came back.

25:28Literally, my colour came back. And I feel that transformation of how I wear colour every day or that's how I'm also known healed me. I said when we started, it was like therapy for me. and it really has a profound effect. You put your clothes on, you felt right, and then you could be right and attempt your job how you want to do it. Attempt to be who I want to be, I think. Or it gave me the confidence for a bit more of Holly to come out. I don't know. Was it a vessel or a feeling? Do you think that that's the power of design in a way, or certainly fashion design, that people can sort of, like a cape, I suppose, It's almost become something.

26:14I think we all have a certain suit of armour that we go by. And it's like we put that suit of armour on and we know how we feel and we know that it keeps us going. When there are times, I mean, for example, I always make sure I'm fully made up and looking okay, even if I'm putting out the garbage. Because, you know, I remember times when you put out the garbage and then you look up across the road and there's someone taking a photograph and you think, hang on a minute. Hang on, I've got to always, as what we do, we represent ourselves so that people never feel let down nowadays if they see you or how it is.

26:58If they see you. I was reading about the power of fashion in something and I didn't know this, but in the Second World War, when fashion was scarce, lipstick was still sold and that Churchill kept lipstick off the ration list because it symbolised sort of, I don't know, power. People being able to feel better. And how women felt better with it. So it wasn't on the ration list. I love that one. I love that. So I'm going to come back to your story. You were one of the designers, as we all know, who put London at the forefront of international fashion in the 70s, winning so many accolades for your work.

27:37And with your pink hair and your electric designs, you were known as the Princess of Punk. So you've actually had quite a few names. What's the other one? Death on the Rose. Oh, Death on the Rose was from the head of the Royal College, Robin Tarwin. We've got another one here. And you were just dressing different types of people. And then you started designing clothes for Diana, Princess of Wales. And you weren't the most conservative, as we can tell. Did that surprise you that royalty came your way? And because, you know, undoubtedly she was an icon of that time, but you wouldn't have put two and two together.

28:15What tends to happen when you're summing up my life is I started off as a textile designer, so my clothes are usually very involved in being patterned. Yeah. So when I first went to America with the printed, flowing printed chiffons and the gorgeous printed evening coats that Deanna Vreeland put on Natalie Wood in Vogue. That was one look. Then in the middle, I thought, oh, I should give it a rapid change. And I invented the conceptual chic punk look. And we did the punk dresses with the beads, beaded safety pins and chains. And my partner, Anne Knight, in my shop in Mayfair said, look, if you're going to do something so extreme, we're going to fill the window with it to be convincing.

29:05We filled the window to be convincing. We're removing the flowing chiffon dresses. Put it in the window and for two weeks we didn't sell anything. Right. It went. We put it, that went downstairs into the basement. Now, they're now collector's items because when Harold Coder retired from the Met in New York, the Metropolitan Museum, the one thing he wanted in all the world was my white punk wedding dress. But I reckon I only ever sold three punk outfits in the whole of my life. I have them as a collection and then there's one set in Philadelphia and then there's different rare sets across the world.

29:52But I went back to the chiffon dresses. You're right. So basically, it's the chiffon dresses. And you're almost meaning like people sort of pick these, the good bits of the stories. They piece together the overnight success type thing. And really here we're talking about, there were some hiccups along the way. It wasn't quite perfect.

30:19Well, spring is here, there's hope in the air, and I'm thrilled to be back with a brand new series of conversations of inspiration. If you're a new listener, a big hello from me and a warm welcome. And if you've been part of this community for many years, then welcome back. At Holly & Co., we're not just a small business marketplace, we're a small business marketplace with a purpose. It's our mission to create a more thoughtful way for people to shop, live and work so that we're all better able to show our love for others as well as the world that we live in and spend our 29 ,000 days on this planet doing something worthwhile.

31:02From unique handmade gifts for every possible life moment to homeware made to last, everything we sell is carefully curated and supports a UK artist or maker. We also share all kinds of ideas to help you live creatively and all the tools and confidence you need to start a business if you want to. And not just a good business, but a business that does good. To find out more, just visit holly.co or sign up to our emails. For now, let's get back to our conversation of inspiration.

31:40So how did it come about that you were there with Diana? And I mean, was that a moment for you? Well, I had a beautiful chic shop in Mayfair for 15 years from the mid-60s into the whole of the 70s and nearly the end of the 80s. Right, wow. Where I had my wonderful chiffon clothes, of which, for example, Diana Ross came in and bought a whole outfit. Yes. And Princess Diana had six outfits. Right. But then she'd come in and she'd fit something. then I'd go in my mini to the palace and I'd fit her in her version because she might have tried on the off-shoulder black dress but it became an off-shoulder pink dress and all the points were edged with pearls and it was printed in lovely white pigment it was gorgeous so I was thrilled that she had like all these dresses of mine yeah and I read that you said that she was very shy a very very nice woman but a shy woman she was very shy she bit her nails a little bit and she was always quite gorgeous you know you'd go in and you'd curtsy and you'd go in and try the dress on her and then I was lucky enough to go to that grand sale when she divorced she divorced Charles and she had the grand sale at Christie's in New York I mean the room was breathless as these amazing sales took place for thousands of dollars that people bought so it was really was an electric time incredible am i wrong or right that you would quite like to dress you know when you think about dressing someone now wrong or right that you have said beyonce would be someone that you would like to dress i'd love to do clothes for all those different ones you know so yeah you could you You know, you could definitely Lady Gaga.

33:38I mean, I could do an exalcting dress. That is a match made in heaven. Surely that can happen, no? Well, it might. We might be listening to this programme. Who knows? You know what? Funny you should say that. When you say something on this podcast, it happens. So this is the ask that we're putting out. Beware what you say or it might just happen. Lady Gaga, I know you're a regular listener here, but I have someone who's very happy to dress you. So just let me know and I can just hook you up. So in 2003, you founded the Fashion and Textile Museum in London. And what a space this is. It was a self-funded project and you actually sold your home to finance it.

34:21And I have to say, it's why you did it. It's a legacy. It's you in a building, if that could even happen. Tell me about the experience of founding the museum and why you felt that you needed to do it. Because, again, a little bit like you being your brand and sort of when I go out there and I talk to businesses, almost selling your home to then create the museum that you knew you wanted to create for your legacy, it's almost part of the same bubble. You're going all in. You know, it's all about the whole of you rather than two parts. In life, whoever knows the real truth, one minute with a career, you're up here, and the next minute, you've dived down to the bottom.

35:10So one minute, people are adoring a Zandro chiffon dress, and then another time, they're being a fantastic Thierry Mugler suit. Yes. The rollercoaster. I always saved all my favourites from every collection. Right. and my great friend Andrew Logan lived around the corner from here because this is where the Shard is and he said to me, Zandra, this was in the early 90s you said, Zandra, there's a warehouse going and you've always wanted to do a museum I think you should get it and I said, what do you think I am, made of money and I worked out that I could sell my house in Bayswater and it would pay for the building My gosh.

35:56So it paid for the building because they hadn't built the shard. Right, yes. It paid for the building. So I moved everything into this warehouse and lived in virtual squalor for about four or five years in the offices above the warehouse. And first of all, I flew Ricardo Ligaretta, the famous Mexican architect, to London on my mileage, first class on my mileage tickets. And I said, I got a group of very big architects together and said, look, this is an up-and-coming area and you've never done something in Europe. And so he designed it for me and it's his first building in Europe. And then, of course, I thought the government would give me a grant.