S23 Ep9: Katie Piper OBE — Broadcaster, Author & Charity Campaigner: On beauty, bravery and unbreakable spirit

32:45You're a grafter. You really are. You're someone who puts in the work. I can tell when you decided to put that energy into your recovery, but also that your recovery became a job in a way. I mean, I've just never thought of it like that. But I mean, I had the greatest privilege speaking to Edith Edgar, a Holocaust survivor for this podcast, and her words were, you're a human being who went through an experience and it's not your identity. It's not who you are. It's what was done to you and that you can refuse to be a victim. That's so strong. And incredibly powerful words and I'd never forget Edith's words summing this up and that defines what we almost think of the human spirit and I'm wondering do you think part of the human spirit is that moment or the agency that we have that moment where we can decide how we choose to define ourselves after something so life-changing yeah I think so and you know for me I started to because I'd always written and enjoyed writing and I enjoyed watching films and things I started to think of my life a bit like a film or at least a film script and I thought actually you know realistically those two guys were only in the film for a few seconds like only one scene actually really oh my gosh what a way of looking at it how amazing especially for films like two hours long yeah you know they wouldn't yeah they wouldn't have even been cast as like big actors they might have just been from like an extra agency uh not been on a big fee and if I'm like the main star if I'm the lead and then I'm also like producing and writing I can just write the rest of the script I can write the ending I can actually edit things and I started to see it a bit like that and that I suppose helped me to take ownership back and realize you know factually of course there are things that are going to come into our life uninvited unwelcome that we we don't want to happen and we don't have control over but we definitely always have control over the aftermath and how we deal with it and it's really funny when we talk about identity because I think misogyny assumes identity for women is how we look right and of course there's a part of that but you know talking to you about work, one of the hardest things for me that carried the deepest shame was when I couldn't work.

35:11And you know, back then being, my only qualification was a beautician. So that's your hands, that's your eyes, and that's how you present. Well, those were all damaged. And I remember mum saying to me, they didn't charge me rent to move back home. They drove me to all my appointments. But my mum and dad didn't have a lot of money. And you know, anyone that's been unwell will know hospital parking, prescriptions, overnight stays, like it bankrupts the family. And my mum said to me, we have to get, we have to fill out paperwork, we have to get you on to benefits. And I remember sobbing over that because it was like a pride.

35:47I was like, but I've, I worked before I got my NI number. I worked from like 14, 15. We did tabletop sales at the end of the driveway. You know, I don't want to be on benefits. I feel like a failure. Like I've, it was such an important thing to me and again when I work with anybody I always talk to them about that reason to shower that reason to get dressed that reason to go out into the world and I just think employment of any form whether it whether it's you know for salary or whether it's a voluntary whether it's working with charities it's so important it's so linked to your confidence and really your love for life and continuing living oh it's so eloquent I mean god I just I just I'm I'm literally, I'm paused here.

36:33Anyone that can't see me, I'm just leaning on my hand, just listening to you. And I just couldn't agree with you more. I mean, my career has been trying to help, I suppose, dreamers, people who have a dream and they want to do something. And, you know, people say, you know, oh, it's all about business, et cetera, et cetera. It is about business. I mean, I love business. I love the tool of business. it's actually about watching someone be the most them and be who they want to be in life and enabling them or helping them to be that because work that's worth doing is sort of an amazing or what just working and being happy in your work and that what it gives you there's so much more than financial there is so much about your identity about your passions about self-discovery you know the 20 years I've been doing this and watching the same people find themselves over and over again through their business because yeah ultimately it means they're probably doing really interesting things because it pushes you and it stretches you and you've got to overcome the roller coaster of everything so you get to experience things that other people don't necessarily experience in which then you grow yourself yeah and and I think that that's where we sometimes, like you say, you know, there's so much more around work than just the classic work and a paycheck.

38:03A hundred percent. And I always think some people think it's like this place that you arrive at and then you're that person and you stay there forever. And I always think with me, I do so many different jobs, so many different roles. And actually, when I was younger, I'll always remember particularly my dad saying, no, you find a job and you stay at it forever and you get a pension. And if you leave, it looks really bad on your CV. And they'll ask you, why did you leave? And they won't want to employ you. And maybe that was true in the 90s, right? But it's certainly not now. You know, they call us like the slashers, don't they, where we've got all these job roles and we do all these different things.

38:39And, you know, I've been successful at some things, not everything. I failed at some things. But even now, I would still go to a seminar. I would join a workshop and learn something new. I would volunteer. I would go and work for free to learn something. Like it's not that I would say, right, I've done this and I'm staying here and this is what I'm good at. I'm not moving into other areas. I still like to move into unknown areas and learn things and progress. And I still feel like a success on one day and a failure on another. But I've really kind of learned that, you know, being younger and it's another young, you know, message to your younger self.

39:16I'd look at other women and men and think, how do I get to where they are and be them? And I now realize, no, that's a transient place for everybody. And they want to be someone else or they want to be them again. And there's no like, you can't just stay in that club and the work is done, you know. Yeah, you can't. And what do you think? Because I mean, so many people right now, whether you like it or not, are saying, God, she's so inspirational. And I'm sure lots of people tell you that you are. But I'm wondering how you feel about that word. Because of course, people have created an image of you and but I'd love to know how this aligns with how you see yourself and does it put pressure on you to maybe always have to be strong and positive or appear to be it's a bit too wholesome for me it's too much pressure because it suggests perfection which is quite an uncomfortable pedestal really and and maybe doing a disservice to the people watching from afar because who can sit on that pedestal forever and not fall off and sometimes I think also what it can do is make you idolize people and platform people and say well they're special they were born with this special thing but you kind of touched on it earlier when you talked about the human spirit it's it's it's within each and every one of us but fortunately most people don't have to tap into it usually until sort of like 60s 70s plus when people start dying they get diagnosis, terminal illness, you know, you know, same of that thing of when do people start living when they start dying, you know, and that's kind of a bit of a sad revelation, really.

40:51But when you've had a tragedy or a trauma at a young age, like I have, or some of the people at my foundation have, you have to tap into that human spirit. And what we all kind of learn in our experiences is it can get a bit frayed around the edges, it can get, you know, feeling like it's a little bit broken but it's never completely destroyed and you have these kind of epiphanies you have these turning moments when you realize who you are and you start showing up for yourself and you realize you know I suppose what happened to me was that thing if you can only touch what you can see right you can only touch the surface you can destroy and dismantle the surface but you can touch somebody all over but never own another you know spirit soul they're quite private things and very private yeah they remain very intact actually um and I think you know for me what I started to understand like growing up I was born in 83 right so I grew up in the like special k diet era slim fast you know slim fast yeah it wasn't actually the pressure on us then wasn't about the face it was all about body and it was all about weight and it was like being thin was desirable um and And actually, people didn't inject their faces, change their...

42:06No, they didn't. No, at all. You didn't talk much about the face, actually. You're right. Plastic surgery was something secretive that Hollywood people did. Absolutely. Absolutely. It was two Diet Cokes, one Slim Fast and Sauvignon Blanc, please. Thank you very much for some silk cut. That was me. It was literally that. And we didn't Photoshop. We didn't even document our faces online or critique. We didn't have trolling or anything like that. So the message for us was just be thin and then you're worthy and you're attractive. So confidence was still to be, you know, through deprivation and how you looked in that sense.

42:42So I think what happened to me is I then got forced into this place where I wasn't beautiful anymore. And I was so thin. I was six stone, come out of a coma, tube fed, couldn't swallow. So the irony of growing up in the 90s and, you know, oh, I'm a size 10, I wish I was an eight. Like, you know, how pathetic. now I just want to swallow my own saliva that would be great I started to gain confidence from my ability you know my ability to assert myself my ability to survive my ability to really push through and carry on and then what I understood about confidence and resilience is they're closely correlated right if you start to build up resilience you have the confidence to know that whatever life throws at you, you're going to be okay.

43:30So now I know if I got divorced or if I went bankrupt or if I got unwell, I will always be able to reinvent, readapt, evolve, survive. Yeah, I'm malleable. I'm not rigid, you know. So of course it would be sad for me, but it wouldn't be the end of me. I think just to this point, your entire story is, and I'm not saying this is where it started, because as you said, this has been an evolution of you is you're not a victim and that you are one of a survivor and that you shared your journey so openly especially through your documentary Katie my beautiful face and I know that before that you'd spoken of feeling quite isolated and so yes you made it news but you felt isolated and you faced judgment and unbelievable cruelty from strangers what was it like to take a step into that public eye and tell your story on your own terms.

44:25Did you feel strong enough then or was it a leap of faith? I think it was a bit of both and actually this is why I'll never moan about social media or trolling because like you I have an incredible community around me as a result of putting myself out there and I saw the absolute best in the British public from all walks of life people were so supportive to me in so many different ways so much so that the public inspired me to set up my charity because people were putting like well this is how long ago it was people were putting checks checks through my mum and dad's door because we lived in a small village and they recognized the exterior of the house on the documentary 10 pounds 5 pounds 20 pounds 10 pound notes and my mum and dad very strict they were like you're on disability benefit That's fraud if you keep that money.

45:19So I was like, OK. Mum and Dad, please. It's going to shock me to the benefits people. So we set up a bank account with charitable status. And the original plan was, well, we'll just make like a trust. And then if anyone gets badly burnt and they want to access the treatment that I accessed that was abroad, we can just give them a grant for them to go and access that treatment. but because the public support didn't stop that grew and grew and formalized to a board and trustees and fast forward 15 years on we have our own rehab center in the UK like the one I visited abroad so you know I think there's loads of stuff going on in the world now that if you sat on x or twitter or whatever you call it and you scrolled you feel so bad about the world and I really want to encourage everyone to always look for the helpers because they are always there and my experience just showed me on the whole we are such decent kind loving people and it wasn't just everyone coming up to me embracing me physically and telling me it was the nod in a supermarket it was just the exchanging a stare with each other a kind one where I knew that woman was a survivor too yes it wasn't visual but I knew she'd been through something and and sadly the amount of people that have either been abused in some kind of way or just never felt enough is such a high volume.

46:44So many people have been made to not feel good enough in life and I've just felt those exchanges, those glances and that energy transfer with so many people but it was very healing. It restored my faith in society that people are good and when we come together collectively we can do amazing things you said it sounds so cheesy to say but it really was an inside out makeover you see the confidence come across me and on screen and I it feels like sharing your story like you said was was this turning point I mean I do believe in always moving forward actually just once one step in front of the other never looking back in a way now and again, you have to look back, but actually it feels like you were a woman in the heart.

47:31You know, Katie hasn't changed from the Tom girl that you were, you know, back then and you were curious and in a hurry. And you had 3.5 million viewers who saw your journey. It was BAFTA nominated. I mean, this isn't just a documentary, you know, this is phenomenal. And as you said, you formed the Katie Piper Foundation, helping survivors, helping survivors of burns and scars. When you look at your life, you couldn't make up more of a worthwhile existence for yourself than doing what you do with your heart, your soul. But yet it's taken you to have to go through so much to be here. I mean, how do you quantify what you went through to then to be where you are today?

48:19I think we all go through stuff to get to who we are today. And I think that's one of the ways we're shortchanging younger people is we show them the highlights reel, we show them the success, we show them the end point. And I suppose what my journey is, is it's visual. So people can see the suffering, they can see the pain, they can see the transition. But make no mistake, that's behind everyone's story. Anyone that writes an autobiography or you go and sit with an older person with life experience and have a cup of tea and you talk to them about it. There's always some element of loss, trauma, tragedy and more commonly behind successful people because that often really, really drives them.

48:59So I don't think I'm unique in that way. I think a lot of this is about you've got to take ownership and you've got to reclaim your power. So our deepest insecurities can only be weaponized against us if we let them. So when you talk about people that say don't want to wear a bikini on the beach because they've got sail light, right? Even if it's a bit emperor's clothing and you're not really walking the walk yet, you're just trying to talk the talk, right? You go on that beach and you're like, I don't give a shit what you all think about me and my sail light. Maybe for a few seconds, someone's like, oh, look, she's got sail light.

49:34And the other person's like, oh, yeah, should we go get a pint? it's it's it's done isn't it like you can't you can't humiliate me or embarrass me about something that I am taking back the ownership of like people can troll me online and I'm like I know I know what I look like like my job is not to be beautiful for you like I don't need you to fancy me to come online and sell my book like that doesn't work for me and then you sort of disarm the perpetrator. Like they no longer hold the cards. They don't have that power. And that in itself is quite attractive and sexy. So then you go full circle of making yourself super attractive.

50:16You know, but you have to be like, you have to be the source. You can't let the other person be the source and the key holder to your happiness, your confidence, because then they just like rule you. and that's so exhausting.

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51:40I think what's obvious here is how much work you've done on yourself, how much work you've obviously done with others. I know that you've said it can be people that you help. It could be as extreme as being suicidal or having post-traumatic stress, anxiety, depression, low level self-esteem, helping people get back to work, helping people feel self-worth, all of these sorts of things. So you must have absorbed so much insight into the human nature, recovery, how one comes out of something like this. And now you help so many people with your foundation, but through your books and your brilliant podcast, Extraordinary People, where you share stories of utter resilience, either through campaigning or inspirational speaking, TV, radio, you're a columnist.

52:26I mean, there's literally something, you know, you do it all. And I remember speaking to Sophie Morgan for this podcast and she was paralysed in a car crash. Yeah, her book's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. When she was 18 and she spoke about the preconceptions that she faced and that there's still a lot of stigma in society around visible injuries and whether there's disability or scarring and what more needs to be done. So here you are as a highly successful person. Do we need more visibility in our culture? and are the people that your foundation works with seeing and feeling the shift that you didn't have back when it happened?

53:08Yeah it's definitely a different climate I've worked with Sophie a lot and she's an incredible person she does a lot of campaigning herself and you know I could never compare my life to hers because she's a wheelchair user she's paralyzed it's a very different experience that she had to me. I think if we look at media, you know, absolutely. When I was burnt 17 years ago, there were no models or presenters with facial disfigurement. No. They just weren't, you know. We saw facial disfigurement in Simon Weston, our military heroes. They were heroes from the war and school people to fundraise for, really.

53:44Yes, yes, you're right. They weren't like selling us products or they weren't aspirational. They weren't role models in that sense. So definitely climate has changed. But yeah, it's still very difficult where, you know, for me, I'm, I would say like without sounding arrogant, I'm very accomplished in my chosen profession. Now I've made hours and hours of television in America, in the UK on all different subjects from, you know, news, entertainment, broadcast, documentaries, radio, I've set up businesses, but still people will want to talk to me about an acid attack. You know, that was 17 years ago for me.

54:23It's not the most dominant thing in my life, but it is hard for people. But I think that's changing and I think that's definitely a positive thing. But it can be really difficult. But, you know, people's lives are difficult for all different reasons. And I don't think it's about like moping over the cards that you get dealt. It's definitely about like, OK, this is my hand. So how am I going to play it? Right. I always find opportunity. I always arrive at excitement with every situation that I'm in and try to sort of turn that around in that way. So, you know, sure, I know that I look different.

55:02I know that I'll face discrimination. But if I hadn't been burned, I'm sure there would have been other barriers in my life that I wouldn't have foreseen. I think what was interesting for me was entering this new era, this new decade in my 40s, because I'd done so much work with my foundation, but outside of my foundation, through my books and programs around beauty, right? And here I was about to turn 40, which I was quite excited about, you know, more life living. That's great. You know, there's some incredible women that have documented their battles with cancer over the last few years who have died in their 40s.

55:37You know, like how dare we commiserate life? I think that's crazy. And again, it's eternalized misogyny and it comes not just from men like I was getting a lot of female journalists being like do you mind if we print your real age are you happy to talk about this big birthday you've got uh coming up you know when I was 39 about to turn 40 and I just thought god you would have sat across me 10 years ago and interviewed me about surviving and how great that is why are we treating women like this you know if if life expectancy is 80 I'm only 50 through at 40 it's nothing but and I think the message has changed a little bit with aging where we have older women on telly now and we have older women selling us product but the message is you can be 50 and tell us you're 50 but please don't look 50.

56:22I'm finding this all quite difficult because I was thinking about I'm a few years of 50 and I'm super excited about being 50 and actually 40s have been the best ever. I love my 40s. I've heard 60s are amazing too by the way so I'm sort of like I need to like calm down Holly and just like do not do the two decades in a heartbeat. But I'm finding it interesting as we move forward. I watched Sting at the Apollo the other day and it was incredible. He's 74, you know, and he is amazing. And I turned around to my husband. He's six, he just turned 65. And he's, anyone on this podcast knows I do talk to him.

57:03He doesn't listen to this podcast. So I slightly can, he's like a half glass full kind of guy. Yeah. And I was trying to almost go, but do you understand he's 74 and it's like yeah well he's a pop star and things like that and I and I said but listen we're living in an age in an era where we look at the sex in the city girls versus the golden golden women was it called a golden girls yeah yeah and they were the same age and we look at the a-list celebrities going on the on the red carpet and I'm literally I can't cope that they are in their 60s 70s 80s and and how amazing yeah but you're right there's something I feel very proud of living in this era where 40 is that you know 60 is the new 40 and all that sort of thing but it still falls down to the fact that everyone looks really good yeah so the message is still be beautiful like that's your look young be beautiful that's your worth and I think that's what we need to change and I think this is what inspired me to write my latest book Still Beautiful.

58:06Tell me about this I was literally about to talk about this so tell me about this book. So I really dissect chapter by chapter all around like if you've ever felt not good enough if you've ever felt lacking in some way it's not your fault and actually look at who made you feel like that and actually the person that made you feel like that is often selling you the solution as well so it's just to kind of trap us because if we're no longer if we've all got high levels of self esteem and confidence we're not going to constantly buy disposable fashion we're not going to constantly buy overpriced lotions and potions and probably the economy would collapse about insecure women right it's not good for the economy if we're all okay they need to keep us at this level where we just have to keep consuming all the time and I've got two young daughters and I just wanted to write the truth and how I've found this out the hard way.

58:57And, you know, we tell younger girls in particular, your 20s, your heyday, no, I was eating, gone off food, living in a rented bedroom. I had to keep my food and shampoo all in my bedroom because everyone was stealing it in the shared bathroom and shared kitchen. Like they were not, that was not my heyday. Like my 20s was a time for mistakes, experimenting and being skint. And actually my 40s are the most financially secure I've ever been uh they're the most stable I've ever felt I'm I'm able to say no without feeling rude I'm able to be confident I couldn't do any of that not even in my 30s so I'm assuming that 50s must be better and then 60s must be an even more improvement you know absolutely and I think that however much older you get I think I feel personally you still fall into the trap you know I talk about being the most me I've ever been similarly I'm buying more creams than I've ever bought in my life more gadgets I mean I love this stuff by the way as well I have to say so I bought all the gadgets and everything like that and I know you've written about confidence as well you know I feel the most confidence I've ever felt yeah just still with the pressure I must have had when I was 20 you know and I sort of can't shift it I suppose I don't think then I think many women can't shift it you know it's I I can read the newspapers this weekend and it is continuously what tweakments, what is the latest laser, what is the latest things.

1:00:28I find myself absolutely fascinated in all of it, don't get me wrong, but I still have that as my sort of something that's high up in what I've got to succeed in. It's very difficult. And I think because it's becoming noisier and noisier around us and because we can make all these comparisons and we can see what other people are doing or not doing, there's almost like that added pressure. But I think we just have to stay grounded and go back to who are we? Why are we doing what we're doing? And understanding that things are people's highlights and how they want to portray themselves are not always the truth.

1:01:05And I think, you know, although that can be challenging, I think that's why I became so passionate about this message in the book. And identity is more important than ever because we have to have our anchor and we have to be able to go back to that. And that's our safe place. And is that what you tell your children? How do you deal, like, before we went on the podcast, we were talking about, you know, their consumption of what their, you know, the comparisons, the reels, the hours of, I mean, seriously, like, hours of that stuff that they're looking at. and every beauty product available and every, do you know what I mean?

1:01:40Like everything available. I didn't even know what Botox was until I was 30 years old. I didn't even know what it was. And so now they have this beauty menu, so to speak. They just have all the pictures, all the videos continuously. How do you get them excited about, or lots of people right now dealing with teenage daughters or how do we get them excited because you what you champion is resilience confidence inner strength purpose everything that's inside not on the outside yeah I think it's really difficult and you know I have to say I have nothing against people who you know I have Botox myself I don't think any differently of someone that chooses to have elective cosmetic surgery because I don't want to contribute to policing other women's appearance telling them how they should and shouldn't look and what you know the good women and the bad women that do this like a woman can look however she wants so long as it's her choice and so long as other people haven't made her feel that she has to look like that you know that's in informed choice and consent and if you're a sound mind and body and mental health then that's okay and I we should all tolerate that and we shouldn't be telling other women they're weaker for adjusting this or changing that but yeah with my own children I have to talk to them about who are you what is going to be your legacy what do you contribute sure if you go and have a nose job and change the shape of your nose like what what is that contributing to your life like how does that change and look at what's happened to me and look at what happens in aging all of this is momentarial all of this is fragile it's surface it's transient like we never own this we fool ourselves that we do we're just borrowing it and as we go everyone else's changes are very gradual and slow mine were in seconds overnight it's a very unique experience but you know I talked to my daughter about what teams is she on what sport is she on what books is she reading what does she know about what's happening in the world who is she if she has to write an elevator pitch a bio a synopsis you know like what's going on there and and it's not fair to other mums and dads to be like well my parents my kids aren't going to do this or that because the truth is once you get to puberty and adolescence it's not like that you can have all these ideas about what your kids are going to do or not do and how they're going to feel and it's it's very difficult to navigate that you know I'm not popular right now because my eldest wants a phone and I've signed that phone smart free childhood pact where you say you won't give your child a smartphone at least until age 14 um so she's 11 and furious but you know unfortunately that's what's right for us and our family at the moment so I'm having to do a lot of you know I don't care what so-and-so's mum and dad are doing or family are doing that that conversation yeah and I used to get but you should care yeah and look I'm not sat here saying I'm the best mum and I've got all the answers I mean I'm just like I'm good for you good for you for doing that I'm wondering when you you know you're 42 and you're so young basically I mean you've got so much to do and I'm sure you're a woman in a hurry and you have I can only imagine what your list is like do you feel I don't know I look at that question I think about myself I sort of feel maybe there was like my pre-40s and my after 40s I don't know like I feel like 40 is quite a pivotal age yeah do you feel like you have a before and after is your before before the attack and after the attack or is actually talk to me about how you're looking at time and sort of what you then think about your second act so to speak.

1:05:38I think actually I know some people talk about a second act being after menopause and there's like this clear sort of before and after but I think I've had so many transitions in my life that aren't just the obvious ones you know and I think there's there's no doubt life changes when you become a mum and it's weird because it's not at the car seat carrying age because you just need to like feed them and keep them alive like it's actually a few years on where you know it's really hard to continue your professional life like it is whatever we say about having it all it's so hard to either maintain or improve a career once you have children and you will spend all your life either feeling like you're failing at work or you're a shit mum like it would you'll just feel one of those never together but separately at either time and that will be forever so long as you continue to work and so long as you continue to mother that will just be forever and that's the way it is and I'm often feeling bad because the school give us one week's notice for the carol concert and the non-uniform day and all the things that I can't go to and then my kids get across and then I will turn down these big jobs to go and see my kid in the play turns out she's only a sheep with no words and then I see all my colleagues and peers doing these big shiny things in like the world of telly and I'm like I should have gone should have done it now I've got professional jealousy but I saw the sheep saw the sheep it's fine um and that just happens all the time you know and then just different I'll have so many before and afters that are more subtle where I'll look back and think I'm not that person anymore and that might be still in the same year that might have been spring to like now in the fall where I'm like I'm not her anymore I don't feel like that anymore I've let go of that I'm not going to be like that you know and you don't tell anyone about those things you just no you don't no they're very very personal aren't they there's just this shift but if you had to we use the analogy of standing coming off the dance floor and and taking the back stairs up to the balcony and then we stand on the balcony and we look down on the dance floor we look at things and and it helps us when we build the business because we're normally on the dance floor panicking and trying to do all the little bits and actually if you stand on the balcony it's you get a better picture of things um when you you know you're married to richard man you called the love of your life and and you're about to come up 10 years because you're going away just reminding yeah going away again you got a pack two beautiful daughters and do you have a sense when you're standing on that balcony now do you have a sense of peace in life in yourself now that's a really tough question because I'm not very good like I can't meditate or anything like that right I find like stillness and movement and I almost fear a bit of peace where I thrive in chaos and emergency because unfortunately that has been all of my younger years so I almost operate better like that and I'm that person when you go on holiday it takes me three days to relax then by day four I'm relaxed and day seven we're all going home and I'm stressed again and and unfortunately that's me and actually there's some negatives to that but that's contributed to some real successes in my life as well so I never really like rest on my laurels I never really bask in anything and I'm aware that's that's not something I should be showing off about you know but that's one of my faults a little bit.

1:09:09Do you call yourself an entrepreneur? Not really no. But I would say after interviewing, you know, I think I'm on 230 now. I would say if the events had not unfolded as they had, you know, you literally are the sort of classic. I was selling this. I realized I could get a night job and then I could have a day job. And then I was selling this. And then I saw an opportunity here. And then I couldn't wait to get out of home. and then I was done. Do you know what I mean? Like you literally sound, I can't meditate. I'm ready. I'm on the go. I need to get in. I can't not work. All these sorts of things.

1:09:49It's an incredibly entrepreneurial DNA set you've got there. Yeah, maybe. I never thought about it like that. And I suppose when I first set up my charity, I was excited of like, I know how we can fundraise. I know how we can create this. I know how we can make space. I know how we can do workshops. I know we can create networks. And I did find it exciting. But maybe I've never had the confidence to think of myself like that commercially. I would say that you are. I'd say that you really, really are. I can't actually, my whole brain is like going, because I'm like going, I think that you are just an entrepreneur.

1:10:23And actually, maybe that's your next decade coming up. Because I think you were born it, maybe. But I think what happened to me, and actually now this has changed and it's positive. and I gave a speech last week. I got given one of those honorary doctorettes. I saw, by the way. I saw. I was so happy for you. Well, I felt like so embarrassed because obviously it's a prestigious uni and they're amazing people that have studied, you know, PhDs and they've given up their life to study, right? And I felt like, oh my goodness, I didn't even get A-levels. And I've always felt like this kind of imposter syndrome and not good enough that I didn't do higher education and that's what's always held me back and been a big regret of mine.

1:11:06But I think the world is changing now where if my kids didn't want to go to uni, I would be cool with that so long as they're working, right? And so long as they're doing an apprenticeship or they're doing something that means they're contributing to society. And when I gave my speech at that doctorate, I said, these weren't my classrooms. I didn't learn in walls that you're learning in, but I did go and pick up my education in X, Y, and Z places and the outcome has been positive. Yeah. and I think I'm only now free of those chains and that shame. Well, hello. Of course you should be. I mean, look who I'm speaking to.

1:11:42But I feel like now I would employ somebody absolutely without a degree. That doesn't bother me at all. Absolutely. Absolutely. Completely. I don't have a degree. Do you not? See, I would assume that you do. No. I got, listen, I mean, they're so bored hearing this, but I haven't told it for a while, but I got two A's in A level and I thought I got a D in business studies. And my mum found the piece of paper a few years ago. I got an E in business studies, A levels. That surprises me so much. I love that that surprises you because that means that maybe I'm faking it enough. And then I didn't go to university, so I have no degree myself.

1:12:23And I would absolutely, I think that you cannot teach passion and you cannot teach hard work and enthusiasm, right? I think you can mould people. But what I'm trying to say is turning up with all of that and having a lust for life and learning and to move forward, I would employ any day over pieces of paper. And I think that that is something that we've got to, at Holly & Co, we have so many, so many, I've only got a small team, but a proportion of them that are school leavers, because I do believe in this completely and utterly. And I think that we should, moving forward, be trying to almost employ those who haven't taken the conventional path.

1:13:09Because maybe they're quite interesting taking the conventional path. That's definitely one of the positive things now, isn't it? About how anyone can work from home, build stuff online, they can platform themselves. And now people that were so talented who we wouldn't hear about or see can do that. Can we do that? Yeah, we see them. I could talk to you for hours. I have already kept you for too long. Katie, we're coming to the end of this podcast. I was wondering if I could ask you, because I ask every single person, that being on this journey as an entrepreneur, as a founder, as someone who we're all so influenced by, what has been, you say, one of your lowest moments on your journey?

1:13:51If you don't mind me asking that as a potentially an insensitive question, but you might not want to give that as an answer. But I just wanted to ask you as I've asked everybody? I suppose like my low is almost sort of intrinsically linked with my high because it was the feeling that I had nothing left and I think again people any big loss whether it was bereavement, divorce, failure in business and bankruptcy you feel like everything's gone and you you've lost everything that's been taken from you but I now understand that they you never really had those things anyway and really the one thing we always need is our foundation is our health right and actually that's the worst thing to be taken from us because if it's taken in an extreme way then we're actually dead so that's it it's over so so long as you're still alive you've got everything right and I didn't understand that for quite a few years and then as it went full circle I realized oh they're just all things that pass in and out of our lives just like we don't own our children like our job is to support them in those years and let them go out into the world and if they want to come back to us as mates later on that's their choice and then maybe we did do a good job so the thought that I'd lost everything and how on earth was it going to come back to me when it was such a permanent thing that I couldn't change and then I suppose the high was the liberation of like I never needed all that stuff I don't need to be all those things that other people need me to be those things I don't need me to be those things right I even had it as as recent as last week I was on holiday and I'd posted an ad before I'd gone on holiday it was an it was advertising milk right and I was doing like a this and that about how do you take your tea your coffee and all these uh trolls started commenting about my appearance you know just slating me comparing me to these characters in a sci-fi film saying I was ugly.

1:15:47And I was on the beach and I was looking at this and I was thinking, that wasn't the brands, like there wasn't guidelines from the milk brand that I had to be beautiful to sell milk. Everyone drinks milk, okay? Most people take milk in their tea or coffee, right? I don't need Jeff from Shropshire to fancy me for me to have milk in my tea. And I kind of replied to just one comment and I was like, it's okay. My objective was not to be attractive to you. Your discomfort is not my burden. And obviously that made the guy absolutely furious. Like he, he, I kind of disarmed him, right? I took away his power.

1:16:23And that was almost a high for me that it's like, I don't need Jeff and Shropshire to fancy me. I don't need him to think that I'm attractive. And I don't feel any less or worse for him telling me I'm ugly. It's like, I know it doesn't matter. It doesn't, it doesn't change anything in my life. And I suppose like the younger me, it would have changed everything. You know, I would have felt so bad that Jeff didn't think I was gorgeous. But I don't find, firstly, I want Jeff to choke on his milk, just so you know. I really, really hope that he's lactose intolerant and that he comes out in complete hives, you know.

1:16:58But don't you find it shocking? Not shocking, but like so boring and so, how after 17 years, how can anyone be saying any of this? Doesn't the world dry out? I mean yeah but this is what I wrote about in my new book is that it's still a deep belief for a lot of men and women that the way to injure or wound a woman is by commenting on her face or body and there's a there's a deep belief that that is the most shameful insulting thing to lack in those areas and it's so much internalized misogyny and for me it was so liberating I looked around at everyone on the beach and I thought my god I wonder how many other women are free like me because I really like don't have to live like that.

1:17:41Like being disfigured at such a young age meant that I clocked out of that race and that competition. And I bet you are one of a few. Yeah, definitely. So imagine like the low of being disfigured in your 20s, right? Versus the high of in your 40s being like, I stopped competing ages ago. It's okay. I don't need to be the most beautiful. And everyone was in their bikinis. And I thought, how many women here would have not been able to come on the beach today because of someone like Jeff? like if they've got that message you know so it's very liberating and freeing you know gosh I still hope he is lactose intolerant I really really do even though I can't even say lactose I hope I'm saying it right my dyslexia gets the better of me and then I start doubting the fact that I can even speak English who cares we don't need to say it it was a it was a feeling and it was a good feeling it was a feeling yeah Katie you have just been just tonic today thank you for sharing everything.

1:18:37It's that time in the podcast where I'm going to hand over to yourself to read a letter to your younger self. And I don't know what you're going to say, but I just have to say on behalf of myself and everyone listening, thank you for sharing a part of your soul with us. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. Okay. Katie, sit down, listen, concentrate. First things first, stop over plucking your eyebrows because you'll thank me later. Now you won't believe this yet, but one day you'll learn that the things that make you different aren't flaws to be fixed. They're gifts that shape your strength.

1:19:13I know right now that you're trying so hard to fit in, fit into a version of beauty that everyone else seems to understand except you. But one day you'll find that beauty isn't about perfection. It's about authenticity, kindness and deep courage. There will be moments ahead that feel impossible. Times when you'll question who you are or whether you'll ever feel like you again. But you will. In fact, you'll become more yourself than you ever dreamed possible. You'll discover that resilience isn't about being unbreakable. It's about rebuilding again and again. But with more compassion each time, self-compassion will be key.

1:19:55You'll also learn that laughter is a kind of medicine. that true friends show up when the cameras are off and that healing doesn't happen in a straight line and when life slows down don't rush to get back to normal the new version of you will be deeper she'll be stronger and she'll be more beautiful than what was before you'll write books that you never expected to write you'll meet people who inspire you beyond words and even will end up showing your more imperfect self with pride. Yes, really. You'll find your voice and you'll use it to lift others and you'll realise that sharing your story helps others find the courage to share theirs too.

1:20:39So please breathe, you don't have to have it all figured out yet. Keep your heart open, your sense of humour close and your faith strong because the road ahead, my darling, will not always be easy but it will be extraordinary because you will make it so with love and gratitude old woman katie

1:21:03gosh you're just um yeah watch out world just watch out world you're you're you're truly um you're truly beautiful ah thank you that's what i'd say you really are you inspire and you give us strength and I think you've reminded us all on what it is to be I don't know I I've I'm talking to myself as you were talking about we've got to just jump off this bandwagon that we're on or jump off the pressures that we're feeling and that your story and the way you has been so articulate in communicating that with us today we've all got to check ourselves yeah we've got to check ourselves and understand our worth and our value.

1:21:49And you really embody that, by the way. And I can't imagine what you're going to be up to in the next couple of decades, your best decades. But I've got to say, I'm here for it. I'm here to help in any way I can. And just thank you for being glorious. Oh, thank you. It's been such a pleasure. And I just want to leave everybody with the thought that it's actually really exciting because we're all so capable. You know, this isn't just about me and my story and we should never let anyone dictate to us what we need to be look like or what we need to show up and be us because it's all within and we own it we've got it it's untouchable so you've got the tools you just need to believe it and tap into it and I find that really exciting for all of us absolutely gosh gosh you've left us with tonic absolutely tonic so much milk in our tea as well thank you yeah listen it's been so great to talk to you thank Thank you so, so much.

1:22:44Thank you. Take care. Thank you for joining me today. If you've enjoyed this episode, can I ask that you share it with a friend and like, subscribe and review it too, so that together we can inspire even more people to follow their dreams to build a life they love.