S23 Ep6: Sophie Ellis-Bextor — Singer-Songwriter: Embracing motherhood, midlife & menopause with music

0:00I think sometimes success has a momentum to it that can be quite hard to feel like you own or at least can see through and make it relevant to you. I've just had a conversation with the woman who needs no introduction. If I just say kitchen disco, you're going to know who I'm talking about. I was obviously speaking to Sophie Ellis Baxter, the pop icon behind songs that, I don't know, just shaped my life really. Murder on the Dance Floor, Groove Jet, and now her brilliantly and hugely empowering album, Perry Menopop. And we spoke a lot towards the end of the podcast about just how liberating, I think, releasing an album, giving us sort of permission to come out of now, thankfully, knowing about menopause, knowing about this whole stage, maybe then going through the fear into this album, onto the dance floor.

0:55And, you know, Sophie is just a really, really nice woman. She has her feet firmly on the ground, even when she talks about her music career, parenting, how she manages her world and life. It really made me feel quite calm and centred. she has a serenity around her and it's really really quite a wonderful thing to be able to hold that feeling whilst being this utterly successful generational pop artist who just you won't see it but just is so beautiful as well it just it was the whole thing was just you know I want to be like her when I grow up, even though she's two years younger than me. This conversation's full of laughter and reflecting on real life moments.

1:48And it's so relatable and it definitely makes you want to dig out your sequins and your platforms and your, I don't know, leotards, if any of you wore them and get dancing because she just brings joy, Sophie. She's enthusiasm really encapsulated in a midlife woman and I'm so glad to know her. So this is definitely one to enjoy.

2:20Hi, I'm Holly Tucker and welcome to my podcast, Conversations of Inspiration. I've reached out to founders and those who simply inspire me to share their hard-earned wisdom with you. My hope is that collectively, these remarkable realisations will help you on your own journey. I like to think of it as inspiration for life. So let's begin this week's Conversation of Inspiration. Sophie, finally, you're here on Conversations of Inspiration. I just can't believe it. I wanted to record this podcast with you for years and I'm so excited about this, but you are very busy and it's a miraculous day off.

3:05Am I right in thinking this? And you've allowed us to take some of your time. It's all good. I'm super happy. I got back from tour last week and this week I've been doing nice things during the day but I've just kept myself so I can always take the kids to school and be here after school. And, you know, there's quite a lot of home things to catch up on as well. So I've just been really enjoying bedding back in, although I still haven't unpacked all my stuff from tour. There's piles upstairs to go through. That's my next project. I can only imagine what that suitcase looks like. I mean, as you mentioned, you're a busy lady.

3:38And right now you're in the middle of this tour celebrating Perry Menno Hop. I mean, what a name. And you've recently performed Milan, Zurich, Paris, Amsterdam. The list goes on. And firstly, no one needs an introduction to Sophie Ellis-Bexter. Obviously, I'm just calling her Sophie, everyone. But this is Sophie Ellis-Bexter. We are talking about her tour. but also when I've been looking at your stories and your posts, there is something about that atmosphere that I'm not there, but it feels like every molecule of air is full of joy. Oh, that's so nice. Is that what it's like? I definitely think there's something very special about live performance.

4:21And for all the stuff that I do, it's the thing that I probably care the most about and that can satisfy my soul the quickest. because I always think of gigs a bit like a date, you know, and you're just really hoping it goes well and that you guys get on and that maybe there'll be a second date. And so there's a sort of, it's like a process of getting to know one another as quick as possible. And different venues, different crowds have a slightly different mood, different days of the week. So my job when I come out is to sort of work out how to tessellate with that energy as quickly as possible so that we can get where we need to go.

5:00And I've always just quite enjoyed the challenge, I think. Yeah, I love that. I've never even thought of that, but you're right. It must just have a different atmosphere wherever it is and you're sort of trying to sense it and pick it up and change it and morph it and things. I mean, it really is. There feels like the relationship you have with everyone watching you is a very special one and it feels powerful. and it also feels like you're having the best time and you are you able to savor that like I've never asked a pop star like are you able to savor what's happening right there and then that's a really good question I mean I think there's probably a few layers to it really and firstly I would say without sounding too sort of enid blighted about it I think especially since lockdown when everything obviously went quiet and all the live venues stopped being open I'm so aware of how special it is if someone chooses to spend an evening you know if they come to a gig I think like you know you used to feel part of a big mechanism where that's just what was happening and that was a whole culture but now I I see it as more of like individuals choosing to deviate their plans to come so I think that does lead to a higher level of appreciation for the whole thing but also I think the truth is that sometimes you have absolute liftoff and sometimes you're cultivating it more so that you can get to that state I think I always reach it in the end but sometimes it's quicker because sometimes it's just for whatever reason feels a bit more you've got to make it happen a bit more but I think sometimes when when you come off stage people will say oh did you enjoy that and I think really you're kind of encouraged as an artist to think that it's all about your own enjoyment but actually I think that's like a happy next level right because really my job is to make sure that everybody that comes feels that they made the right decision to come and see me had a great time so I sort of I suppose I feel like I'm that first but I don't mean that in a cynical way I mean more in a respectful way really yeah no one needs to know what's going on in my day or if something's stressed me or if I found you know the makeup I was doing didn't come together like I hoped or the dressing room was awkward.

7:16When I walk out on stage, I need to be in as good, it needs to be the same level for whatever type of show. Because even the gigs where you walk out and you think, okay, it's a festival, it's raining, it's a bit cold. There'll be someone in the crowd where I'm thinking, okay, well, what about that kid there? What if this is their first ever gig? I need to make sure they walk away thinking, oh, that was, you know, some time well spent. She was all right. Yeah. So I do kind of take all that in, really. So I guess, yeah, I usually do reach lift off, but sometimes you're just, hopefully no one can tell when that happens for me.

7:53Yeah, I just love that. I think that one of the things that makes you a remarkable woman is obviously you're a pop icon, but you're a podcaster, wife, a mum, five beautiful boys. And just like your podcast, I've been honoured enough to be on spinning all the plates. I mean, how do you find it when you're touring and how has that experience evolved? You know, as you've been evolving over the decades and your kids have grown up, is there now a way that you have a relationship with touring and family life that you didn't before? Sort of yes and no. I think sometimes because the touring in a lot of ways hasn't really shifted in terms of how it is viscerally.

8:37I know we're going to do my letter later but I was thinking about the fact that it's crazy really that I'm still getting on a tour bus all these years later and they're very similar the experience, so some of it is like joining back to that teenage version of me in a way but I think what's happened with the live shows is just that there's less of a gap I think I needed when I was younger a lot more of a run up I would feel like I had to put on a bit of armour I would feel much more critical of myself I would feel much more self-conscious and now I really feel like there's hardly any inhibitions left quite frankly and I can chat away and occasionally almost almost go towards a sort of stand-up type of experience because I like to do like a little bit of chat and I'll have learned some facts about where I am and yeah I think the gap that basically me offstage and me onstage is much more similar these days.

9:32And what about leaving home for the tour like Like, is it the kids are growing up? Is there just less shit to do at home and just sort of stuff to get ready? Whereas when they were younger, the thought of being away? I don't know. I mean, you know, from your, you know, raising your son, I think sometimes the bits where they get older is the bits where you can feel worse about leaving, actually. I think when they're little, it's, you know, the time passing for a three-year-old is very different to the time passing for a 13-year-old. Yes. and certainly you know my youngest is still he's six then the next one up's nearly 10 I'm about to miss his birthday again further well my kids tell me it's been four years in a row I don't think that's true I think there's a bit of exaggeration there but it does often fall that it's when I'm touring and then the older ones were all started like the the two teenagers were both uh starting a new term at school one of them was moving into a new school so I did feel really spread thin but thank goodness for technology that really helps I can keep keep in step with them I still speak to them in the morning before school my 13 year old I walk on FaceTime from the tube into the building every morning so there's ways of doing it but um but yeah and I don't think it's got easy I think I still struggle with that a lot and I don't I try not to go away too long and and and that's partly why I started the podcast I think it's because I needed to talk to other working mothers just to see how they were dealing with that I think.

11:01I'm really interested we're going to get into your childhood in a moment but I'm interested in just this moment you said so I missed the birthday yeah what's the conversation that's gone on over the last kids say it's four years I don't believe that is that just something that you have done by osmosis creating respect to mum's career that can sometimes not fit into everybody's diary yeah definitely what's that conversation because for some people they'll be like missing my kid's birthday oh my gosh but then actually the reality is this is life this is true life and this is yeah because it might help people out there definitely just that thought process oh yeah I mean look um I well firstly I and I really do believe it birthdays are a season not a day so when I was little my parents separated when I was four so after I was four I never had all my favorite people in one room for any of my birthdays I was always with one or the other so instead of seeing that as a sad thing I couldn't have my birthday with both my parents it'd be like oh I get to have two birthdays I'll do a lot of that I mean like there's always ways to make it up and also find the fun and I'm all about okay so I can't be there on that day well that day's a school day I'll be back by the weekend when the party's happening I'll be there for the sleepover I'll be there for the cake I'll be able to do all of that stuff but also okay so you'll do something on your birthday with these people and then on the weekend we'll have your party with your friends and then what about the following week we have a big family dinner and we go to Chinatown and we eat dim sum and yeah just draw it out like okay well let's make five times the celebrations then we'll have loads of them yes because otherwise I love that it's a bit like my older kids a bit like oh it's my birthday and it's a school day can't have the day off it's my birthday and it's like we don't always you've got to find ways to find where the celebration is absolutely the thing and And then sometimes I'm away for work, but then I'm back other times.

12:50So I think I'm just quite pragmatic, actually. And also, I do really mean it. I think, you know, obviously I'd love to be there at the end of that school day to have a slice of cake with him. But we'll do it again at the weekend and then we'll have it. We'll just have more birthday. It's fine. Celebration is a season, not just a single day. Same for Christmas. Yeah. And I think for working parents, you know, start making up these things that are traditions in your home. to work around what your unique situations are. There's no rule book here. And I think that that's such a permission for people who might be listening to this to do that because heaven forbid, we beat each other up all the time.

13:33Yeah, I know. But also I think, I don't even think it's just to other working parents because actually it's also to anyone who has, you know, a family dynamic at Christmas. Like Christmas is a classic one for people. where they get very stressed about where are they going to be on Christmas Day? And I, you know, I absolutely respect and no judgment to those people. They're like, well, we've got breakfast with this family and then we're going to these people for lunch and then we do a walk with these people. I'm like, great. But actually, if you just take the pressure off that one day having to hold so much significance and you see people in lots of different ways around that time, it's okay to do that.

14:11Like, enjoy it, lounge into it. Like, let's stretch yourself into what that is for you and actually be a lot more luxurious. And take the pressure cooker off. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, absolutely. Yeah, because otherwise it's so fraught, isn't it? And so knackering. So knackering, yeah. Jeez, so knackering. Everyone's nodding their head, by the way, right there. So I want to ask you about your childhood. Going back to the Sophie growing up in West London in the early 80s, your parents, Robin and Janet, separated, as you just mentioned, when you were little. and your mum Janet was a TV presenter on the iconic Blue Peter show.

14:48What was it like as a young child? And I mean, it was the show that we all watched like hawks. Do you know what I mean? It was just everything that we, as a certain age, just would absolutely love. And it was a sort of an institution for Gen Xers. So I'm wondering when your mum was presenting that show, was it a blessing and a curse or a curse or was it both? and am I right in reading that you did sell Blue Peter Badges for 50p? Like, is that a made-up story or is that real? No, it's not. Well, I suppose the aspect of it that's not too accurate is I don't think I ever really collected too much of the cash.

15:27Because they would be worth quite a lot more than 50p now, I think. Hey, this was, you know, this was primary school playground. I was, that would have really been a handy... You were a hustler then. ...handy to 50p. But I think kids just very rarely bring cash to primary. They didn't then either. So that was, yeah, I think I just gave them away a few times. No, I think there's been way more positives to all of that than anything, you know, as a drawback. I mean, I think I got a lot from my mum, not least a good work ethic. Yeah. And also probably some of that pragmatism I spoke about because my mum was working really hard on Blue Peter and she wasn't always in when I got in from school and I'm sure there'd be times when I wasn't with her for significant dates.

16:15But I think how she framed it was always quite sort of... I don't mean it to be harsh. She was always compassionate and empathetic, but I don't think there's ever been any sort of gloopy sentimentality around her, which definitely helped. And we were always so close, so the proof is in the pudding, really. and I think I found it quite exciting really and obviously it helped in the bigger picture that my parents were both involved in tv which is not a conventional job well certainly for them that in comparison to my friend's parents so it meant I thought when I thought about doing music it wasn't like an unobtainable yes and mysterious thing it had it had some framework in terms of okay yeah that's going to be a job a viable job but also um when my work started to take off it meant that my parents were very good at checking in on me in more of an emotional sense rather than regarding my success with okay yeah what was happening with my professional work so yeah that's that's probably been the biggest biggest positive I think and how did you enjoy school because I read that you were a little bit mischievous bit of a chatterbox but you loved being in school plays and that's your sort of dramatic DNA obviously became sort of ignited at that point yeah I always liked doing plays I mean I don't know if I was that I wasn't actually I didn't really like getting in trouble I wasn't good at that I wouldn't say I was I think the mischievous element maybe came in my teenage years but when I was very little I think I was right uh quite keen to kind of just sort of um I just never wanted any negative attention really I didn't like the idea of getting told off but I also would be you know relatively questioning of things I think and and as a result and I'm sure this is the same for lots of people but I can remember times when teachers said things or taught things and I thought that I don't think that's right you know that kind of it's funny isn't it they must think you're going to forget when you're like seven but you kind of remember that stuff don't you I think primary school was quite tricky I didn't have bucket loads of pals and the ones I had it was all a lot of chopping and changing and yeah I don't feel like I was really particularly popular kid it got a bit easier when I got to secondary school just because I think you've got a few more people to find yeah and I think my life outside of school started to develop and the friends at school that that resonated with like going clubbing and music and things like that we kind of had a world outside Maybe that's where the mischievous came in.

18:45Oh, God, yeah. I mean, awful. I feel bad about it, really, because I was quite good until I was, yeah, like 15. And then I almost took flight overnight. Your poor mum. I know, awful. Like, as soon as I discovered boys, bands, booze, I was like, what have I been doing with my life until now? What have I been doing since when I was 11? These three Bs. Yeah, why was I bothering being such a goody-giddy? Like, let's get out of here. You went on to senior school in London where you had three brilliant English teachers and it sparked an interest in a career in journalism. And you planned to read English at uni, but then fate led you to another direction and you started singing and performing.

19:29And you were 17 when you joined your band called The Audience. Tell me about this experience and joining the band and I suppose being in the spotlight at this young age, because it must have been hugely exciting. It was the late 90s, but it was a very different time then. Loads of things were different. We were ladettes and it was going on and there was sort of slightly, I think, a toxic culture, so to speak, with the celebrity magazines and TV shows and promoting sort of body shaming. So tell me about being that age and sort of the impact of that journey. So, yeah, I started singing when I was 16, but I didn't actually go into, the band didn't really start to do anything until after I'd finished my A-levels.

20:15So I think for that two years during my A-levels where I was doing gigs, I was really just discovering that I'd found my thing. And I did really feel like that. I think almost from the first show I did, I was like, this is the thing I want to do. Wow. So to be honest, the first bit after I finished my A-levels and then I signed the deal and then go off and we just started doing tours was just very exciting. and that momentum was so intoxicating. It was really only about after a year when the band had released an album that didn't chart as highly as the label had hoped and we had this horrible year kind of staggering on trying to make a second album and then we got dropped.

20:56I think it was really that four years was like a sort of crash course in so many experiences that enlightened me to everything that would follow really. and I think the toxic nature really was, it's so hard to, I mean, obviously, I didn't really term it like that then. No one did. That was just how it was. No, I know. I was going to say, it's more of what we look at it now. It's like harassment now. Oh, definitely. No, well, it wasn't even noted. It was just what happened. But then I think that continued for years, actually. I mean, even when I released my solo album and this was like in the early noughties and I mean even as late as 2003, 2004, I had a journalist like take a photograph up my skirt and put it in the papers.

21:41I had my head superimposed on like a woman in underwear and on the front cover of like the Sunday sport. I mean I don't think any of this stuff is legal now. No, I don't think it is, thank God. Yeah, thank God. But I suppose the positive outcome, well one of them has probably been talking to my peers now and realising everybody felt the same. I think that's been quite healing, I would say. But also, I think it just built a resilience, really, because it was very sink or swim. And the thing I sort of learnt from a lot of it is firstly how to find the good people or the better people to stick with, but also when to just observe, really, and just think, I'm not going to make a massive fuss about this, but I'm just going to slightly remove myself from that because that doesn't look so good.

22:34But, you know, some of it was just a steep learning curve, I suppose. But same for everybody. I mean, I think everybody, no matter what industry you're in, I'm sure, there was a lot of that going on. I think we sort of forget now. I mean, it's so frowned upon now and treating people in the spotlight with respect. I mean, gosh, nothing's perfect. But I'm just saying that we're much more conscious of it now, whereas I think in the past, those that were consuming all of this, just celebrities just weren't even human necessarily it was just something to watch and to talk about down the pub and all these sorts of things yeah I'd love to get your thoughts on whether maybe all of that because I sort of corrected myself there has morphed into social media though so that toxicity you know has almost come off the you know the papers and the magazines that we were consuming and it's just all gone on to the new media that we're consuming which is obviously social media and how do you think we maybe manage celebrity now and do you think lessons have been learned I know you've got quite a unique insight into that so you've gone through all of that sort of stage and now we're in this new era do you think things have got better or do you think those in the limelight have not toughened up but are able to sort of block it out more?

23:53I think mainly things are better but that's mainly thanks to language because I think there's we have termology for things that we didn't know how to articulate yes in the 90s and noughties and also because we now don't have a monoculture in the same way it means that people are better able to find their communities and the spaces where they want to talk more about certain things so I think aspects of the way we interact with each other have actually improved so things that used to be more taboo have have been dialed down and have been brought more into lights and you can find spaces for that if you need it and I think also it's really fascinating to me that you can have artists that sell out big venues but you won't hear that we won't know them whereas yes in the older days you know that because there was this monoculture you used to know what was number one or if there's a massive song on the radio and also whatever was played on the radio over and over would dictate what we'd be then consuming which still happens a bit but not in the same way I don't think so I think by and large it's produced a lot more subcultures and has probably helped me because I think when I was younger, pop music was so seen as youth-driven that I didn't even really know if I'd be able to or encouraged to make pop music in my 40s.

25:28Yeah. And so because people are now voting with their feet and we have got all these other, you know, areas of community and conversation, it means you can exist within those worlds without it needing to be dictated by a boardroom of 12 people who decide what six songs we're going to have on the A-list and that's that. Yes. So I think all those, that narrative that was being perpetuated was never coming from people up anyway. Like my kids don't care how old people are that are singing the songs or anything. Yeah, yeah. So I think that aspect has been really positive. I suppose the negative things you're talking about, I think they get called out better.

26:09But I also think, I don't know. I think it's just still a work in progress, isn't it? I mean, we still make the same mistakes about kindness and listening to people. And I think maybe, was it that we used to have just such smaller amounts of media that we were consuming? So everyone was, you know, buying the Sun newspaper, let's just say, or doing whatever. whereas now I mean you just go scroll past a post I mean it's just cat litter tray almost I mean you know cat litter tray you know what I mean like paper instantly I know it's crazy isn't it it's crazy so because it's to say it's less visible unless you get caught into one of those vortexes in which yeah we no one wants it and the trolling I wanted to also ask about that time because of course despite what you went through the band was just so successful and you were voted one of the sexiest people in rock by Melody Maker.

27:02I love that. And I can imagine it must have felt like everything was coming together. And then a year later, you lost your record contract and you were only 20 years old. That must have been not only just a huge blow professionally and personally, but you're 20 when this happens. And that is a big knock. And I read that you have now said that you actually were quite grateful for this experience. tell me why you were grateful did it give you some lessons that you you know you were thankful for at a young age yeah definitely I just think everything if everything had just kept being amazing I just think I would be pretty intolerable I think it would have really um consolidated a very and not a very healthy way of seeing the world and I think it also absolutely crystallized my relationship with music because I thought well am I only going to want to do this when you know it's fair weather or is this something I want to do no matter what and I remember really thinking about that and also taking responsibility because I think you know the band it was a great exciting opportunity but it went wrong very fast and I wasn't really particularly I hadn't really taken on all the things that it would have needed to make it right I was kind of reacting to stuff a lot I think which was the dynamic that was set up because I wasn't a writer I mean you had just left school well yeah but I'd finished my A-levels but it had all been kind of laid out and I wasn't one of the writers and the whole way that the band had been constructed yeah that was really not me I wasn't the spearhead of that so I was kind of learning and then I think after that I thought right whatever happens from this point I need to, I can't go around blaming anyone else for how it ends up.

28:54It's got to be on me. And I think that was helpful as well. But yeah, I did feel, I felt like I'd probably got it all wrong before I was even like 21. So that was not great. 21, wow. Yeah, because all my friends had gone to uni and I was like, oh no, I should have done that. I just, I just, it's a person who's going to always be reminiscing about a band I was in in the 90s and it's going to be tragic. And they hadn't even left uni yet. Yeah, I was like, this is terrible.

29:24I honestly can't believe I'm saying this. After 20 years of dreaming of creating a business show based in kindness, it's finally happening. My brand new TV series, Be Your Own Boss, is now out on ITV. It's a business show with a big heart, all about kindness, creativity, and what it really takes to turn your passion into a thriving business. Each week, I'll get a delivery at home from two small businesses in need of support and then head out to meet them in their workshops or kitchen tables to offer hands-on advice and a bit of encouragement to help them grow. It's full of heart, hope and practical inspiration.

30:05Perfect if you've ever dreamed of starting your own thing or just love seeing people chase their passions. So tune in to Be Your Own Boss. Watch them all now on ITVX and even better, share it with friends, family and your followers to spread the word and support UK small businesses across the country. For now, though, let's get back to our conversation of inspiration. It was a horrible experience, but I've also read that you said and it jumped out at me and I wanted to ask you about this. For me, success is harder to navigate than failure or disappointment. Yeah, definitely. Can you elaborate on that?

30:48I just think we're better cultured in how to navigate things not working out. Because firstly, I think it's quite a British mindset. But also I think it is just more familiar. It's a more familiar feeling, isn't it? When you're like, I'm hoping for this, but it's probably going to be that. but I think sometimes success has a momentum to it that can be quite hard to feel grounded inside of it and to sort of feel like you own or at least can see through and make it relevant to you because once things are headed in an exciting direction a lot of other people come out and they've all got ideas of where they can chime in with their thoughts and it can be quite hard to keep your head straight I think yeah and you have to success for me has to be a little have a little bit of a an aim to it has to have like a sort of like a meaning so that it can make you feel still kind of sane within it so I think last year when group um I'm married on the dance world um was having this extraordinary resurgence at the beginning of the year with salt burn yes exactly which was happening very fast and it sort of started in December and was galloping through like January, February.

32:07I just needed to kind of take a minute just to see through it like okay but how does this make sense with all the other things I already have planned for this year so that I don't end up losing my mind and doing something crazy that doesn't make any sense really or I look back and I go oh I was acting almost a bit drunk there you know. Yeah I totally know what you mean being caught up in the moment and just doing something that someone else is trying to sort of potentially and I like what you said about you get lots of other people coming in on success I mean failure and the graft is quite a lonely place no one wants to do that it's not actually very fun and then so why would anyone want to come in when you're having to do that bit but the fun bit you know when it's all going well you know how many people would like to I mean I'm being cynical take a slice of it or be in the part the action and so you're really right and I'd never thought about that maybe because I'm still in the gritty grafty stage Sophie I haven't I haven't quite got there yet but you know it's not losing your head and not being drunk on it I think that's the thing and actually I mean you say that but you obviously that's a sign of your ambition I would say because there's obviously lots that you've achieved that is incredibly successful but I think I think that's also being quite sober about the work that's needed to maintain it yeah and I think to be fair even with my line of work I'm very hardwired to be mindful that you know I don't know what happens the year after next and my diary could be empty and stay empty so I think you kind of there's always like that slight you know prod in your back of like come on yeah on to the next bit please yeah yeah but that whole adage about success has many fathers and failure as an orphan I think is very true.

33:49Oh it absolutely is and I think everything you said so far feels like a woman that really knows herself and obviously that's one of the biggest gifts that we can have and for me one of the things I would say is I really seeing you then and now is poise and you have this incredible poise that I think defines who you who you are I read in your book that you said it's been my goal to be unapologetic, kind, considerate, but clear with my boundaries. And I love that. Do you think it's something that just comes with age? Or I'm wondering if you think that now younger women feel this too. And potentially we've been talking about social media and how that's completely changed our world.

34:37and you know even things like your kids don't care how old someone is you know when you were just talking about that I was thinking when you were younger you didn't care what you were doing in your 40s I mean we didn't think like that whereas I think potentially people look at I don't know different times but poise comes to mind when I look at you and you speak and things like that what do you think where that's come from and about women of this now and do you think we operate differently? I don't know I mean I suppose I suppose some of it I think is kind of just about knowing yourself but also knowing what works for you and I think for me keeping my my bandwidth in terms of how I deal with stuff fairly tidy has actually probably been more of a sometimes a coping mechanism or just a way of taking stock because in the times when I have been more inclined towards a more dramatic highs and lows it doesn't really serve me very well and I don't feel as good and I think I'm just one of those people that quite likes feeling quite measured it doesn't mean I don't do silly things but that's still quite a private thing I think maybe less so these days but I think for a long time that was a way of kind of keeping my cards quite close to my chest and what do you mean by that when you say keeping your bandwidth I suppose it's not ever wanting people to know if they hurt you yeah I just don't really I suppose I think even things like when I did Strictly and there'd be talk about I don't know when you're gonna cry or something I was like well I won't be doing that like I already knew when I started that like yeah I will give this all of me and I will really apply myself but I will literally I will not be crying on this program you know like just things you just choices you make for yourself because yes I think I'm just I think that's just how I've been a bit wired and it's it serves me well because then I can feel like I've kept some things for myself right yes and maybe maybe that's always been quite important and I think some of that's quite conscious I don't mean cynical I just mean like a little backpack of a reserve because when I started my solo career you can feel quite vulnerable if you're doing things on your own so when I did the video for Murder on the Dance Floor I thought I don't want to do a video where I'm like looking like I want to be everybody's friend because what if that doesn't really work and people don't really say nice things I'd rather be a really horrible character and then I've I see I've given longer to to show a side of myself or not and maybe I don't need to and I think that's just been a way to kind of protect yourself and yeah I think so so everybody's got different versions of that I think yeah yeah gosh that's really interesting coming back to your story a few months um after losing your record deal you were asked to sing on Groove Jet um if this isn't love and it went to number one becoming an extraordinary complete success and I actually read that initially you weren't too keen on the idea of recording it and then you released your album and Murder on the Dance Floor became a global hit and I mean what a moment this was when you say you were keeping it all together and you were sort of like your bandwidth and you have your rucksack of you on your back and you try not have the highs and the lows are there some times where you're just on a rocket ship and it doesn't matter what you think it's happening was that that moment then a little bit but I don't really like that feeling too much um I think if I ever start feeling that I just sort of take myself out of I take myself out but that's probably why I spend a lot of time walking around and that kind of recalibrates me and it reminds you you know gives you perspective doesn't it and also the people you choose to spend time with so when I think back to that beginning bit with my career it's interesting because on the one hand yeah it was incredibly exciting and heady and it definitely I remember getting panic attacks when my diary first started really taking off because I was just thinking like I'm not I don't feel like I'm really in control of a lot of my days yeah but But my main memory actually is of the people that I, if I had a good person in my life, I would just sort of stay very close with them and talk about other stuff.

39:15So one of the people was Lisa, who did my hair for Take Me Home and Murder on Dance for, so right at the beginning. And I still work with her now. She does makeup as well now. But so we've been friends for over 20 years. And so when I was doing these trips and going to all these different countries with the album, she would be with me. and we just have conversations about lots of things and I think that kind of I think I think that's kind of where I found find my touchstones always and it stops me kind of getting a bit lost in the spiral of where is this going to lead yeah yeah keeps your feet on the ground definitely your your soul planted exactly and so this was all happening and it was the turn of the millennium And I think when we sort of had, you know, the sort of Britney Spears and the Lindsay Lowans of the world and the tabloids and you were actually pitted.

40:07I can't remember this. You were pitted against Victoria Beckham for the number one slot when she released her first solo single. You were still early 20s, right? This is when I was 21. So, yeah, that's in the summer of 2000. And it's quite funny. I mean, obviously, why would you remember? but to me it was such a big thing at the time because um it was on like the news and it was on the front cover of papers and it was really intense it made me kind of ill it was so intense yeah I think you were on the front page you're on the six o 'clock news and this was the sort of like the thing that we were all looking out for yeah it's like a chart battle yeah the chart battle I mean that that takes us back doesn't it and things like that and I also love that you um am I right in saying you came out with a t-shirt what did it say it said Peckham but that wasn't actually supposed to be seen basically I'd worn it to for a joke for the people that were performing with me at um a radio one roadshow um I just thought it was funny and then everyone caught okay and then everyone caught on to it and then I was about to leave yeah and then this one photographer came over and said can I just get a picture of you and uh I was like oh I've already taking all my makeup off and I'm about to go home and he's like just one please and I just got out of the car and did this picture and then the next day I went to my corner shop and it was on the front cover of the paper and I picked up all the papers that had Groove Jack on the cover and put them on the counter and I said to the guy behind the counter that's actually me and the guy went oh I thought I don't like you but then it says she lives in Peckham and I was like that's literally not what that's for Hang on a minute this is all going wrong Yeah yeah I was just I don't know I was just uh having a bit of fun after a very stressful week yeah I can imagine and during this period of time not only did you have this extraordinary career as an international pop star but you met your husband Richard and started your family and you have five boys as you said between the ages of six and 21 and I know firstly everyone's just going uh how is that possible you've got a very busy household lots of different personalities and um I've been lucky enough to come to your house and it's it's this amazing place and full of full of love and full of stuff joy and I I remember speaking to um a fellow sort of mum of a superstar mum like yourself Jules Oliver who has five kids and and we were talking about the juggle do you slightly thrive on the chaos of big families and I'm probably romanticizing because I'm one of my I've got a sister and I've only had Harry but I can imagine the house is well it's like a soap opera I'm assuming like not one day is the same that's very true and I think yeah I definitely I mean I'm a maximalist in sort of every direction really it's what we love about you I definitely like my things and collecting not saying I've collected children but it definitely works for me to have yeah yeah I mean when the babies were little and it'd be you know Richard there's actually still there's a there's a space in the car or it'd be like I could probably put another bed there I mean I just I look back and I'm like wow that was so enthusiastic um and now it's funny because you know the eldest three are all taller than me and it's like oh wow you know this is like a new new chapter uh that's emerging but um yeah I think I think families always meant a lot to me I didn't have any siblings when I was growing up until I was eight and then my brother was born and I was absolutely obsessed with him but so some of it was visceral you know I liked carrying him and having him on my hip and putting him to bed and reading stories and playing with him but some of it was more to do with the emotional echoes that come with a new baby which was all positive and I think after a slightly turbulent time with my parents separation and this baby symbolized the future and goodness like wholesome pure goodness and I really it really meant a lot to me so I think he was born and then when three years later my sister and yeah just it just gave me a lot and I'm pretty sure that's sealed in my head this thing of like I'll definitely wanting to be a mum but but then the the goodness that comes with these new little people that come into the family and and it's so neat because since my brother I've never gone longer than six years without a new baby in the family so my dad had my sister and then a twin brother and sister and then I had my eldest and then I kept them coming quite swift and then quite swiftly yeah and then just as my youngest gets to six my sister had her first baby so I've become an auntie for the first time this year and we have my niece Alba in the world and I'm like, great, the baton gets passed.

45:02So I'm kind of all for it, really. Yeah, we like babies and kids in this family. And the boys are really lucky because they obviously have, you know, their dad and I, but there's all these other people around them. And I like stepping back sometimes and just seeing all the other relationships that have sprung up that are so strong between them or, you know, with my mum or, you know, my brother or my sister. And very sweetly, my brother, the squidgy baby, he drums in my band. So I get to tour with him as well. Oh, wow. That's amazing. It's very sweet. I know. It's ended up incredibly wholesome, I would say.

45:41Yes, it has. It's like it's something that we would watch after Blue Peter or something. Do you know what I mean? With our jammy dodges. You did something completely extraordinary and launched Kitchen Disco during COVID. And I mean, it was a total tonic for all of us. And we all tuned in to see you singing and dancing. And we saw your home and your children and you spread joy like you do today. And, you know, it was what we needed. And I mean, it's still crazy. My son said to me, like, are we going to just like always talk about COVID? And I said, well, I think, I hope so, by the way, because I hope nothing ever takes away from that being our drama in our lives.