S23 Ep10: 50 years in footwear — Dune’s founder & chairman Daniel Rubin shares his steps to success

28:56And it was an incredibly good buy. And as I say, it gave us an opportunity of getting into concessions, which were hugely profitable. The actual negotiations were quite difficult because I had to go to the managing directors of the CEOs of Debenhams, House of Fraser, Selvages, persuade them all that, you know, I would not make a mess of their concessions, that, you know, I'd do a good job. So there was quite an important job of selling ourselves as a credible sort of partner for them. Unfortunately, they were convinced. I think the fact that I'd been in business for quite a long time, our brand was doing well, we were successful in John Lewis.

29:42Fortunately, they were persuaded and the deal went through. At the time, I suppose it was stressful, but as I say, it was a fantastic deal. We bought something like£20 million worth of stock for£4 million. So in the subsequent years, it proved to be a real game changer. in terms of the business, yes. Tell me about not getting stressed very easily. Is this like a superpower, Daniel, that you've got or something? It's certainly not a superpower, no. I think one thing, Holly, is that, you know, if you've been doing it a long time, you do manage to, and I've been doing it a very long time, you do manage to, you've seen lots of things before, you've experienced these things.

30:25And so it's not such a shock. you've seen the hard times, the good times. So I think that's an important ingredient, that experience. But I suppose also I'm reasonably sort of, what's the word? I was going to say boring, but I hope my wife wouldn't say that. A reasonably balanced person. I don't tend to get very upset that easily. And I think that's sort of held me in good stead. And I think it's an important quality, obviously, for an entrepreneur, you know, that you do manage to have a positive outlook, that you manage to take, you know, what inevitably a lot of hard sort of positions over the years and come out of them a stronger person.

31:13I think you're right. I mean, highlighting that sort of optimism, not maybe eternal optimism. Well, sometimes you do need to have that. I mean, when you're persuading those department stores that you are going to basically be able to do this, you know, I think one of the draws of founders and what we might be able to do quite well is sell that story and sell that vision and sell that sort of the thing that people can't quite see. And you can bring it to life. And with that positivity, right, because there's no way it's not working in your mind. You know, everyone else can have the doubts, but you can't hold the doubts.

31:50No, I think you're absolutely right. I think it's also just having that sort of inner confidence that you know that you can do a good job. You know, you know shoes, you know the problems. Yeah. I think the other thing is, you know, and I'm sure you found over the years, it's about relationships. You know, it's building that trust that people, you know, believe that you will deliver. You've always sort of been honest with them that you've, you know, and over the years, I mean, that's such an important quality, isn't it? just sort of building up that relationship with suppliers, with partners, so that you don't necessarily have to have a legal agreement in place because you just sort of know that you can trust someone and you're going to do good by them and vice versa.

32:40When the business was growing, did you find it hard to relinquish control in areas? Because I know that this can be hard for founders. I call it founder-titus that we suffer from. And I read that you are a shoe obsessive and you're basically always involved with the product. So how did you manage this, these changes as it scaled? Well, at the beginning, not particularly well, to be honest. We had a CEO and it was like a triumvirate, actually. I was looking after product and marketing. The CEO was looking after sales, retail. And the COO was looking after operations. And with hindsight, I think I must have made the CEO jobs quite difficult.

33:30Because what happens if you're the founder is that if someone gets an answer they don't like, they'll knock at Daniel's door and maybe he will help out. And I think I sort of slowly, maybe too slowly, discovered that that wasn't the basis of a good relationship, that I was undermining the authority of the CEO. So I have managed to step much more back, much more. As you say, I'm not really involved in the day-to-day at all. I'm not particularly good at it. You know, as I say, I've got a low threshold of boredom. I'm not very good on operations and detail. But I am passionate about the product. But interesting on the product, I'm much better identifying what won't sell than what will sell.

34:14I mean, often I'm a bit behind the curve in terms of what's happening with fashion. But I really enjoy the product and do get involved in product meetings. And I do get involved in the brand and, you know, look at marketing. But I like to think now that the relationship I have with the team is much better than it was. I mean, I'm, you know, my main problem is, and I guess it's an age thing, I get impatient, you know, why is everything taking so long? But otherwise, I think it's working pretty well right now. It's sometimes when I speak to people, it's about feeling nervous about scaling, right?

34:55Nervous about scaling because ultimately does scaling mean you're stepping away? You know, by scaling, you're bringing more people in. And it either means you've got to run it on top of everybody else or you've got to relinquish control and have a different relationship with the baby that you started. And you're sort of always its parent in a way. You sort of know, but you've got to entrust the teacher or the nanny or the person now looking after it. And I think that that does make people very nervous. I think you're right. It was interesting because when the pandemic came along in 2020, our CEO left.

35:33And we were in the process of searching for a new CEO, but we didn't find one. So between 2020 and 2022, I took over as CEO. Well, I bet that wasn't a stressful period of time to take over. Well, do you know what? It was, but it was fascinating. I was really proud, actually, of what the team achieved. I mean, you know, in terms of communication, in terms of how we manage. I mean, it was disaster. You know, all of our shops were closed. No one was buying our shoes. But actually running the business during that time, I learned a lot about areas I don't really know much about, you know, performance marketing and IT and areas like that.

36:14So it was fascinating. But I think I was very clear at the end of it that, you know, I'd reached the end of my tether in terms of managing day to day. I was okay at it, but I'm sure that our current CEO, Nigel, is much better at managing the team. I think he's more patient. I think he's mostly a better manager. But so, yes, so I think now we're in a good place. But, you know, in answer to your question, I think it took me a little bit of time to adapt to being a founder and chairman. Yes. Rather than an interfering sort of CEO. I mean, you touched on the pandemic, which I'm going to come to, but I'm going to fast forward to today.

36:58And June has, am I right in saying, 350 store locations worldwide. I mean, that is incredible. But I know you will have, you know, you've already touched on from right at the beginning what changes you've seen. But it seems to be, you know, a huge amount of changes have happened over like the last 10, 15 years. You know, we've got the decline of the high street. We've got the loss of a lot of the big names on the high street. We've had Brexit. We've had the pandemic. I mean, it's just been an incredibly difficult decade, let's say. As such a big name on the high street, I'd love to know your thoughts on the future of the high street.

37:38I was just reading. Actually, I started reading and then I got interrupted and I've saved the paper. But there was a whole article, I think, in the Times this weekend about the high street and its future. and I think a lot of people think that you know maybe COVID accelerated what we were already seeing potentially the drop in the footfall what's your experience been? I think it's very much two-tier look the first thing I'd say is that the rating system is iniquitous you know 75 % of rates are paid by retailers who occupy 25 % of the properties so you know this system does not exist in any other country in the world.

38:21So, you know, if we pay, for example, a rent on an expensive store of£300 ,000, we're paying an extra£150 ,000 for rates. And that, for a lot of businesses, is a killer. So I think the government's got to sort that out. I think what we're seeing now on the high street is very much a two-tier system. You've got those really vibrant high streets where people have invested. We've got local retailers doing a brilliant job, the local butcher, local grocer. And I think there are a few of those where the councils have been quite innovative, quite encouraging. But then you've got a lot that are really dying.

39:03You know, there are so many high streets you go to and it's just charity shops, Vapes shops, you know, nail shops, coffee bars, but very few actual shops. So I think you have got a major problem. I mean, I've got a place in France and I go to Italy a lot on business. And there they protected their high streets. They haven't allowed some of the horrible developments of, you know, the 1960s. Some of those shopping centers were just horrible, disastrous. so I think there is a need to rethink the high street because I think it's such an important part of people's daily life yes and the reality is that a lot of high streets are just disintegrating are just falling apart and I think that is a huge shame and I don't think you know the government have really got to grips with how to deal with it and I it's funny you should say that because I was going to mention in my notes here that I've just come back from a weekend in Paris and I basically went giddy, you know, giddy at the experience because obviously as a retailer myself, but as a shopaholic and a retailer, watching the amount of independence, the amount of creativity, the amount of people basically sharing their vision through a physical store and the joy of the customers coming in.

40:35You know, it was like it was a shopping, you could see shopping was a pastime. You know, it was something that you went and did on a Saturday. You know, this is something you just did. I suppose it made me realise fundamentally that we're starved of that in the UK. We're starved of what it used to be. And what a shame that is. And so now, if you are starting a business, not one of your first things will you be thinking, I must physically manifest my business. I must have a physical manifestation of my company. It's not going to be the first thing you're thinking, is it? No. You're just literally going to think, right, it all has to be digital.

41:17Yes. Because there's no way I could afford what you've just spoken about. No, I think you're absolutely right. I think it's a shame. I think you've got to be very, very brave to open a store. And even then, you know, one store, the economics of a single store usually don't make sense. You know, when I started, I found that I needed at least half a dozen stores to manage the stock, to get the overhead spread across a number of units. So opening a single store, unless you're sort of a corner shop and the whole family is working there. Yeah, yeah. Otherwise, it's really, really difficult. And of course, you also trade internationally.

41:55So particularly now with the US. So I imagine it must be a very fine balancing act when you're facing, you know, so you've got all of that going on. And then you've got the changing political landscapes all the time. I'm thinking, of course, of the tariffs that have been introduced. How have you been able to navigate those challenges? And I suppose, you know, basically remain sort of an ever evolving business, even though you're now quite a big business. Do you see what I mean? So it's fine to be a chameleon when you're young and starting out, but you've got 350 stores. So it's quite difficult to roll with it.

42:33I think we're going through a transformation. You know, the future for June is not necessarily in freestanding stores. The future for us is as a global footwear and accessories brand. One of the things that Acquiring Shoe Studio did was actually pushed us back on that curve because the concessions were retail and we had stock and we had people serving in the concessions. but actually the future of June is as a global brand and as a global brand a lot of that is not necessarily opening stores but selling to third parties so our business in the states is very much through Nordstrom, Dillard's, two of the major department stores or working with franchise partners as we do in the Middle East so I think the future for us is very different from what it was historically as i say i think the future as a pure play footwear retailer is much more difficult the future as a global accessories and footwear brand is very exciting and that's really where we're focusing our efforts is building the brand building our marketing getting the right celebrities to wear our product having the right distributors in different countries having the right franchise partners, that is proving to be hugely successful.

44:02And that's certainly where I see the future. You know, one of the lessons I've found over the years is that having Solus freestanding shoe stores is not easy for the reasons I've said. And therefore, you know, we do fantastically well with someone like Next. We're the best, we're the most successful fashion for a retailer on Next platform. We're doing huge business with Marks and Spencers. We are the number one partner with John Lewis. Those are the opportunities, I think, for the brand going forward. And our website, the website's doing very well, but not so much in stores. Really, stores is much more about key stores in key locations that are really beacons for the brand.

44:44Because what we found is if you have those stores, it helps greatly for your online sales. So that's what I see the future of June very different I suppose from where I started off with with with stores and do you think that's one of the sort of superpowers that you think that you possess or that successful entrepreneurs do which is that sort of ability to pivot and change you know in 2022 you turn you know June turned 30 years old and sort of sensing that it's time to change direction or sensing how you can stay relevant. I think you're absolutely right. When you look at the businesses that have not done that, you know, unfortunately, if you look at the high street, you know, the Top Shops, Dorothy Perkins, there's a whole list of them.

45:34They haven't changed. And then you look at someone like a Zara. Yeah. And you look at how clever they are in newness and creating an environment that is so premium, but which is such good value. So yeah, I think that ability to pivot to change is absolutely crucial. I mean, one of the lessons I learned writing the book, in many occasions, I was too slow to change. You know, I was too slow to close my factory. I was too slow to stop being an importer and seeing my margins reduce. Look, I suppose the good thing is I did eventually see the light and I made those changes. But I think that is maybe the most important thing for an entrepreneur is that ability to change, to see the future.

46:24You know, you hear the stories of people working away night and day, and when you listen to their story, you think, oh, no, this has got no chance. And yet they have devoted all their life and their savings to doing it. So that ability to step back, look at the future, see where the opportunities are, make those changes, in a considered and well-planned way, I think is just one of the main secrets of being a successful entrepreneur. I mean, I love tapping into this because this is, you know, real life, learnt experience, you know, lessons from experience. You know, this is what you know. Do you think you're faster now after 50 years of doing this?

47:10I think we are. As I say, my problem is impatience. You know, when we have an idea, I want it executed really, really quickly. And the reality is it's not so easy. You can't just, you know, click your fingers and it happens. So I do need a degree of patience. But yeah, I think that is the key. I think it's being able to see into the future. But, you know, I'm sure you found, you know, there's a great difference between having the strategy and executing that strategy. Yeah. You know, over the years, we've had so many good ideas. but when they're not executed really really well yeah then you know you can end up in a mess and I think so you do need both you need to have a clear strategy five-year plan but then you need to have the right people the right processes you know business is so complex now you need the right processes you're using AI where it's applicable to in order to implement it and execute it brilliantly because i think that's a lot of failures of of those businesses that have not been successful is they may have had the strategy but they just didn't execute it as well as maybe they should have and don't you find also it's then in the execution the magic can be drained right so due to the processes due to all of those things that actually the initial idea and why it was so sparky and caught your attention, by the time it gets to the execution, it's nowhere to be seen, right?

48:46And I think that's also what the founder has to be there to protect that element as well, which can just be almost the process can just de-shine it, so to speak. I think you're right. I think there's a great danger of over-complicating things. You know, if you can And life is, business is complicated right now. There's no doubt about it. But I think having that vision, being able to simplify it, to prioritize it. What's really important here? I think the problem often is that you, there's so many different things to do that you spend too much time on the unimportant things and not enough time on doing the really important things.

49:30And I think that is key. You know, if you look at the successful entrepreneurs over the time, they've had a laser sharp, you know, the Steve Jobs of this world, a laser sharp vision about what needs to be done. And they are uncompromising in delivering that. Yeah, obsessive. Yeah, obsessive. Exactly. Yes. So after weathering these 50 years in business, what would you say to the small business community listening and how they can navigate through? I mean, you know, just in the last couple of questions, you know, I've mentioned the decline of the high street, COVID, Brexit, tariffs. You know, these are huge things that have come your way.

50:13What would you say has been sort of a guiding principle or something that you might have followed? I think the first thing is to make sure that your business idea is doable, is realistic. You know, I think the more you can question that, do your research, so that you feel really confident that your plan is well thought through, that you're not going to run out of money on the way, that you've done a robust business plan. And if you need help with that, get it. But I think that's the first thing is to have a clear vision about what you want to do and to make sure that the plan is robust. I think for me, the second thing that is just so important is if you really believe in that, then you've got to get out there and sell.

51:05You know, sell, sell, sell. I mean, you learn so much by getting into the market, by challenging yourself, by getting feedback from people, you know, then you can change the product or you can change the service. So I think it's those two things. I think make sure you really do your research up front. And when you're confident you've done that, then really go for it and listen to what people are saying. you know because often you just learn a lot from feedback you know people who've got experience people who've maybe bought that product who can see flaws in it that maybe you didn't so I think for me those are the two key ingredients is that ability to have that vision but then really to go for it and to put every effort into you know going and um and trying to sell it.

52:02I mean, that's what I had to do. I think when I started importing, you know, I spent my time going up and down the motorway visiting customers. A lot of them got fed up with me knocking on their door. Some of them, I think, eventually thought, even though I wasn't, that I was a supplier. But, you know, it was that persistence, which I think is a greatly underestimated quality that enabled me to just sort of break through. And maybe they felt sorry for me in the end and they said okay daniel we'll give you an order um unfortunately the order worked out and it was successful so yeah i think i would say those are super important qualities to have i've talked on here previously about royal mail's international sending services for any founders listening that are thinking about expanding internationally i'll be the first admit that posting items abroad can sometimes feel daunting with things like tariff changes and customs paperwork.

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53:36i do like the fact that you've touched on sales just selling there is something isn't there about now potentially with the social media with almost like a digital protection so to speak you sort of allow it to sell you whereas actually just getting in front of people and you know hardcore selling yourself and your business in front of another human being I think that that muscle probably was worked far more back in the past than it is today you know where you literally feel like you've got your bag in hand you know your little suitcase or your you know whatever whatever you're creating, and then you put your wares on the table and you are selling it.

54:20And I think there's such a power in that, that maybe we don't talk about a lot nowadays. I think you're right. And I think if you take the Americans, I think they're much better at that than we are. Yes. You know, they are very, very determined. They won't take no for an answer. Now, that doesn't always go down well with a UK audience, because, you know, we think it's Don't be a little bit pushy. It's not quite right. Yeah. But, you know, you've got to admire it because I think that is the way to get business done. I think you're absolutely right. I think, you know, with the digital age, there is a danger of becoming into your own little sort of world, a little bit divorced what's happening outside.

55:03And I think that's a shame because I think you can learn so much by just getting out there and talking to people and getting feedback, honest feedback. Because that, I think, can be transformational in terms of progressing your business plan. When you were writing, I'm coming full circle, but from the start of this podcast, back to your memoir, Soul Survivor, reflecting on the last 50 years that you spent in business. It obviously was probably a joy to write, but was there clarity in reflecting over this huge chunk of time? I mean, firstly, did you take stock and give yourself a pat on the back?

55:46um i think one of the things about entrepreneurs is that you you don't tend to look we just do not do that no you tend to think about the next problem rather than yeah yeah you're like the last one yeah yeah exactly yeah so i but i probably could have answered that but was there clarity in a sense of what matters to you now moving forward being able to reflect on being able to spend that time looking at your past and all of those things that have happened and were you able to join some dots up I think so yes yeah I think um one of the things it did was to highlight some of the serial mistakes that I made which wasn't a particularly enjoyable sensation but um yeah I think that was that was interesting I think it did you know I think you know I'm I love history I like listening to history.

56:43And I think you do learn a lot from it. And so that process of writing the book, I did understand a lot about what I did wrong and actually what I did right. So, yeah, I think it's hugely, I find it hugely valuable in terms of just trying to get a clear idea about, you know, where you are, where you sit, what the opportunities are. So, yeah, it was, as you said at the beginning, it was a cathartic experience and one that actually I enjoyed a lot. Travelling was fantastic. You know, I got the opportunity of visiting 30 countries I'd never have visited. Yeah. You know, my wife is not a keen traveller and she wouldn't have gone to Vietnam or Indonesia or all these other places, but I did have the opportunity.

57:32And I think that's actually one of the main things, meeting some really inspirational people. You know, shoes are difficult. They're tough. And the people that are in the shoe trade tend to have a sort of grittiness and a determination, which makes them really interesting company. So, yeah, I think that's most probably the thing that I've learned most is just that enjoyment of meeting people, getting out there, experiencing lots of different things that, quite frankly, if I'd been a chartered accountant, I would never have done. No. And thank goodness you didn't keep going in that career. Otherwise, my goodness.

58:13I mean, tell me at the end of this podcast, and I'm wondering what you're going to say. And I'm also thinking about how proud, I don't know if you reflect on this in your book, that your father and your grandfather would be, right? That the chartered accountant career didn't, you know, you didn't follow dad's advice and actually you did follow in their footsteps. But towards the end of this podcast, I do ask my guests about the roller coaster, which you fully well know you have been on over the last 50 years. What would you say has been one of your biggest, lowest moments? You know, the time where you feel sick in your stomach?

58:52No doubt it was the pandemic, you know. Yeah. The pandemic came along. We had to close all of our stores. People were at home. They were wearing trainers or slippers. Yeah, I was going to say, it's not one of those businesses where you go, oh, so then everyone's just going to buy. Well, no, and no one was going out. Exactly. And if they were buying shoes, they certainly weren't buying fashion shoes from June. So that was really a very, very tough period because, you know, we were losing lots of money. We had a bit of support, obviously, from the government with a furlough scheme and didn't get much support from landlords, unfortunately.

59:30But that was the low point. I really didn't know whether we'd get through that because we were just so badly positioned to cope with it. You know, we lost, I think we must have lost about£25 million during that period. My goodness me. And that is a massive hit to our balance sheet. So that was without doubt the lowest point, I think, in my long career. Yeah, well, it would be. And conversely, your highest high? I think when we took over Shoe Studio and tripled our size, I think I suddenly realized, you know, we were now a major player within the industry, that we were now being distributed through Selfridges, through all the major department stores.

1:00:11So I think that was most probably the biggest high, just achieving that acquisition at a really, really good price and projecting us into a different sort of sphere within our industry. Amazing. Well, Daniel, this has just been a fantastic time to connect, get to know you more, get to know June more, to hear about the 50 years. There's not many of you, Daniel, out there. Do you know what I mean? No, there's not many. I don't know whether to be proud or embarrassed. Oh, hugely proud. Are you joking me? It's hugely proud. We need people like you. My God. You know, people who are still holding up their brands and, you know, caring.

1:00:57And it's not just shareholders and just invisibleness. You know, it feels so good to speak to you. It's that time of the podcast, though, I am going to hand over to you to read a letter that you've prepared for your younger self. and just thank you so much in advance, Daniel. Well, it's been a real pleasure. Thank you very much, Holly. I've greatly enjoyed it. Me too. Good. Over to you. So this is a letter to my younger self. Dear Daniel, whilst writing my memoir of 50 years in the shoe trade, I had a lot of time to reflect on the decisions I made, the mistakes and successes. Thinking about my early years, I was aware that I was too risk averse.

1:01:41Because I was afraid of rejection, I held back both in relationships and in business. I urge you to be braver than I was. The worst that can happen is that people say no, and in many cases they could well say yes. It was only later when I started my own business that I was forced to be more assertive, as otherwise it would never have worked. I encourage you to speak to people who can give you good advice and a different perspective. These conversations are hugely valuable in helping you form your ideas Don't be afraid to seek advice Most people are more than willing to share their ideas Although in the end, you need to decide what's right for you Building strong ties with colleagues and partners is an essential ingredient for a successful career People will make that extra effort to support you if you build a relationship based on mutual respect and trust.

1:02:41It is so important you find a career that you enjoy. We spend so much of our time at work that you don't want to look back with regrets. Although it has been an ongoing challenge, I don't regret my 50 years in footwear. However, there were times during my career when I got so sucked into the detail that I didn't step back and look at the big picture. If I had, I would have made different decisions. You will make mistakes along the way. I certainly have. But learn from these mistakes. Be resilient, but always have a positive attitude. Finally, and most importantly, get things in perspective. I have found that having a strong family foundation and good friends is essential for a fulfilling and rewarding life.

1:03:31so make sure you devote time to nurturing these relationships much love Daniel thank you Daniel so much you know when you're reading that you just feel how lucky we are as listeners to get your insight as you say you're you're a rare thing and so actually to hear what you would say back to that younger Daniel is just a real honour. And I think one of the things that resonated there for me is getting things in perspective and investing in those relationships that basically are your scaffolding through this journey. You know, and without them, we couldn't have done, you know, built the businesses that we have, you know, that these are the people that hold you up in the tough times.

1:04:20And I can imagine that you relied heavily on them through that period of COVID? Very much so, yes. Yes. I mean, I'm very fortunate to have a close family. And as I say, they've been hugely supportive and it would have been very, very difficult to achieve what I have without that support. Daniel, thank you again for your time today. I wish you decades more fun with your beautiful brand, June. Thank you very much, Holly. I've really enjoyed it. It's been my pleasure. thank you for joining me today if you've enjoyed this episode can i ask that you share it with a friend and like subscribe and review it too so that together we can inspire even more people to follow their dreams to build a life they love