S22 Ep3: Rob Biddulph, Author & Illustrator: The man who taught a million children to draw

28:41And she found this lady and her husband had been a bit of a philanderer and had run off. and so she found herself not with one set of twins, but she already had a set of twins. So this was the second set of twins that she'd given birth to and she just couldn't cope, so she left them at the Nardoo's. But the strange thing was the first set of twins, the girl was called Penny, which is what my gran called my dad's sister. So suddenly there's these two Penny. It was just something very strange. And so I've kind of got this whole side of the family that I've met a few of them, my dad's birth family, but I think there's you know there's this huge network of people yeah so it's um yeah it's a funny old story but because of that because of that yeah Bernardo I did this yeah Bernardo's approached me totally coincidentally and I was having a lot of there was a lot of talking to a lot of people at the time but I said no I'm definitely I really want to do that you're going to support that Paul and Penny Paul and Penny um just I was just thinking about lockdown actually And that whole, as we said, this sort of bubble that we were in.

29:45And unbelievably, it's five years on. And we're able to look back at COVID. And, you know, there was obviously all the challenges and all the difficult times. And gosh, so much pain as well during that period. But there was this slower pace of life. I remember it being for myself. And I've said on this podcast, the first time ever that I worked from home, ever. You know, and I started work at 18. You know, so it was for me, it was like I understood that there were seasons properly and I walked and I didn't have to commute. You know, these hours that you were saving on both ends of the day and time with family and nature and all of these sorts of things.

30:25I'd love to know what your point of view is about what happened to creativity during that period of time, because I think that there were so many benefits in that area. I don't know if we've kept to them, but I definitely know that people were exploring things that they maybe had had on the list forever that they wanted to do. And that maybe we were all seeing a little bit of another side of ourselves. And I'm just wondering, what were your views on that and the long lasting nature of that, potentially experiments that happened? Yeah, I mean, yeah, definitely is something that happened. And I mean, you know, as a family, we had a, you know, I know it was a terrible time for lots of people, but actually for us, it really brought us closer together because we did things that we never would have done otherwise.

31:15As you said, you know, walks, film nights, all that kind of thing, quizzes, all that sort of stuff. And, you know, one of my daughters did the sourdough thing. You know, the others were doing lots more piano making music, that kind of thing. And I just don't think that would have happened otherwise. and um with my so i you know i was working very hard all through lockdown because as i said you know my regular day job wasn't really affected but doing all the draw with rob stuff i can't tell you how many not just children but adults as well were messaging me saying that they had picked up a pencil for the first time since they were at school you know were drawing along with me just because they had that time to do it and had that time to kind of put down the phone there weren't emails flying around they weren't going having to go into work and they could just spend half an hour sat at the dining room table drawing along with me and i think you know we were talking earlier about ai and you know the whole thing about creativity being the journey as opposed to the um finished product and so many people said to me they didn't really care what they're they were they were all quite impressed with the work that they were making but they were saying it wasn't about that it was about getting into a different headspace not thinking about work because I think with drawing especially and probably and me I play a bit of guitar as well and so I think it's very similar with music but when you're doing that so when you're in the act of creativity when you're drawing or when you're playing a musical instrument you go into a sort of zen state it's meditative right it's totally it's a different state you're using a different part of your brain and you are totally in that zone you're in the moment doing that thing and you're not thinking about anything else and that can only be good for us So I do think by embracing and doing something that you don't normally do, which is something that was afforded to the lucky ones in lockdown, I think it was hugely beneficial for creativity.

33:04But yeah, as you say, you know, we had the three lockdowns, then life sort of went back to normal. Gradually, people started going back into work. And I think normal life kind of takes over a little bit. Creatures of habit. You know, we just went back into. and it's it's I yeah it's a funny thing that period of time I could talk about it quite a bit I've been looking at some old photographs lately of that period of time and almost slightly nuts you know some of the things that went on um the fact you could spend a whole Friday night with friends online and having a few drinks and it was perfectly normal but now you think oh my goodness um but let's go back to draw with Rob because it makes me think about the art programs when I was actually young and of course we consumed them differently then we watched them on tv but i used to love take heart with tony hart and yeah me too he showed us how to draw paint experiment and then there was that gallery each week with all the children at the end and they sent in the artwork and it was yeah it was connecting with kids in a similar way and obviously you judged the holly and co art exhibition obviously not the same level i'm not trying to even consider it it was But I've spoken to a lot of minds on this podcast about education and the positivity of exposing children to creativity and that not putting it to the bottom of the pile.

34:26What do you think we can do as a society to change our attitudes to children's art and seeing it as, you know, we talked about AI, but actually just encouraging it at home. if the schools are going to be taking it out more and more, what's your take on it? What do you do with, I mean, obviously you're the dad that you are with your kids. They're very lucky. But what's your view when you look outside at the greater world of kids? Well, I think, I mean, specifically talking about drawing, again, one of the great things that came out of lockdown was the fact that families were sitting down and doing a creative act together.

35:03So they were sitting down at the table and drawing together or watching the video they were doing over Zoom or whatever with their grandparents as well. but I think children need to see their parents doing the things that they like doing as well so if the parents are sitting there drawing along and having a nice time with the children drawing too then that's really really important but I think one of the easiest ways of encouraging children and creativity is very very simple is really looking at the work they do really looking at the drawings I know we all get you know lots and lots of drawings come home from school but stick a couple up on the wall have a couple of picture frames that you can rotate sticking the kids pictures up on the wall or up on the fridge because I think once that happens then the kids it kind of gives the kids a sense of place within that family unit and they feel valued and they feel like what they do matters and what they do counts and it just all that does it just encourages them to kind of create more and kind of do more so that's something that we that's a very simple thing that we always did without with our kids creativity can take many many forms so even if your child is a maths genius and maths is their thing you know I did maths a level I did maths a level and art a level outside each other yeah I was just about to you took the next part out which was you would have thought that you were just a budding artist but no you um have an a level in pure math now come on you're not allowed to be doing what you're doing today and have a pure math a level at the same time I have yeah well you know what they're very I think art and Maths, very, very linked.

36:35Certainly design. Tell me why you think they're linked. Just give me, not in a brainiac way, but just like in a simplistic way. Okay, well, art is all about problem solving. It's all about problem solving. If you're painting a picture, you need to work out how you're going to compose this picture so that everything kind of makes sense. This list draws the eye into that area of the painting, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And certainly design. You know, the first, you know, my magazine design career is all about problem solving. and you have to work out how to get somebody to navigate a feature that you're designing in a magazine in the way that you want them to.

37:09So you start with the headline, you have a big photo here with eye contacts and then you want to guide their eye down to the picture capture. There's a science kind of behind it. And apart from anything else with magazine and newspaper design, it's all about grids. There's underlying grid systems for every single page in that magazine. And there's underlying grids in paintings. If you go to an art gallery, I could tell you all about the kind of, you know the golden aspect and you know this line leading to there and blah blah blah and so I think it's all about problem solving and geometry really they're so interrelated right so you so if we've got kids with all these different peacock feathers going on and and and so it's not really classic arts but it could be math it could be english it could be all these sorts of things it's to try and look at that with that view the lens of creativity yeah and celebrating that And going into your magazine side of things, after leaving school, we're going back to the little Rob, not so little now.

38:07You've now got an A-level in pure math. And after leaving school, you went to university and I learned about visual arts and typography and illustration and graphic design. Before landing your first job on the magazine that I loved, Just 17. Just 17. And I remember these magazines so well. It was that whole smash hits, I think, Just 17. Yeah. What else was there? Sugar. There was bliss. Bliss. Do you remember? Bliss, yeah. I just used that. And the things that were attached to the front, you know, some crappy perfume spray bottle or something like that. And I remember, I can imagine actually that this was a pretty, because they were cool magazines.

38:48This was a pretty cool job after uni. Yeah, it was. You must have learned a lot about going into a busy environment like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because this must have been full on. I started my life in magazines, but monthly yeah i graduated to magazines but monthly not not as quick as just 17 when i first started just 17 was every two weeks and then it soon became a monthly magazine right okay but yeah it was a baptism of fire going in there so basically it's all about as with most a lot of careers it's kind of like who you know because it's quite very hard to be in those days very hard to get a job in magazines the other thing i was quite good at when i was in my youth was football i was a decent in fact i had the opportunity i had a bit of a sliding doors moment in my life where I had to choose between football and art, actually, because I was offered a semi-professional.

39:33So, sorry, you did pure math, talented artist, could have been a professional football player. It's all right. It's okay. I was kind of like, you know, an all-rounder. I wasn't brilliant at any of them. But just really good at three. I was quite good. But the reason I'm talking about football is because at uni, I played in the uni first team of football. And that's actually, when I played for the uni team, there's lots of boys in, it was a very high level. And there's lots of boys in that team that have been on the books of Chelsea and Arsenal, these clubs, and they hadn't made it. And I was playing with them and I was thinking, they're really good.

40:06I think I made the right decision to stick with them. Anyway, sorry, I digress. Somebody in the football team was in the year above me at our college and they got a job on Just17 a year before I left. So when I left, he said, come and freelance here. So I got my foot in the door and I felt totally out of my depth. but I picked it up quite soon and it was full of big characters and photo shoots and you know I remember Westlife came in to do a showcase before they were anyone knew who they were this is a thing that used to happen these people would bring in their teen bands and they would sit on stools in the office and they would sing their song and we would all go we'd all just get on with our work you know and then a few years later you think oh my god that was Westlife but it was a crazy environment to work in but again I'm so glad that I did that I mean I did my words in magazines for 20 years before I wrote my first book and so I had this whole other career but again there's very they're very closely related the two kind of careers yes yes they are and you worked Sky magazine NME the Observer and you had this whole world and then then the next bit happened so tell me about the next bit and how you began illustrating and writing children's books and what that time was like for you because I read that it wasn't an instant career and that there was a lot of wranglings and toings and froings and this sort of idea, and we talk a lot about it on this podcast, of overnight successes.

41:34Yeah, it's not true. It's not true. It's not true at all. You can be talented, you can be good, but I find, you know, there's a lot of luck involved and the harder you work, the luckier you get, right? That's truism if ever there was one. But yeah, I decided, you know, I was literally, it was I'd I when I was back at art college I'd done a bit of children's book illustration just as a little kind of a site I can't remember a module or something and I had really enjoyed it but then sort of forgotten about it and studied graphic design because that's I was told if you want to make any money you need to be a graphic designer not a fine artist or an illustrator so then when I was it was my middle daughter Kitty I was reading you know bedtime stories were a big deal in our house you know I read to my girls until they were I read to kill a mockingbird with them when they were like 14 you know because i love that bedtime story it's so important that kind of bedtime story time but i remember just reading a couple of picture books and i sort of had an epiphany and i thought you know what this is such a nice medium for an artist you know you get it's like it's like being a filmmaker i think in lots of ways doing a picture book you know except that you get to do everything you get to cast it you get to direct it light it you know all that kind of thing write the scripts if you're going to write the story as well i'd never thought of it like that.

42:44I loved working in magazines, but there are downsides to these kind of team sports like magazines because, you know, sometimes you've got the editor or, you know, I would come up with 10 covers and it's not the cover that I liked that would get chosen. So it can be frustrating. Whereas this was an opportunity to, I would do everything and what I did would end up on a bookshelf if I was lucky enough to get published. So I remember having that epiphany moment and I you know at that time my kids was very small they're coming out with all sorts of silly things and I thought there was a few things I wrote down I thought that would make a good picture book and because I was reading so many I thought I sort of had an idea of whether I could do it or not and um and I'd always enjoyed writing I'd written for a few of the magazines that I'd worked on and I thought I think I can do this so I wrote I wrote a story I illustrated it I had a friend who knew an agent.

43:38I sort of got to know the process of the way you get, the journey you take to publishing. So they put me in touch with this agent. I sent this book to the agent. She sort of sent a bottle of champagne and said, this is amazing, come in and see me. And I thought, this is easy. This is a doddle. I've literally done it, right? We're virtually there. I'm going to be, you know, I've won the Booker Prize this time next year. Anyway, it wasn't that easy. It turned out, you know, I did some work on this book with this agent for six months. and then she turned around and said her boss had decided they didn't want to do any children's books, so I had to start again.

44:11I found another agent. This time I got in the room with all the publishers in London. They all liked the work I was doing, but I just could not get a book over the line. I think I was doing that for about four years with this guy, this agent. And it wasn't his fault. But the really frustrating thing was I knew I was good enough because I was in the room and I was kind of working up different versions of these books with different publishers. but as I said I just couldn't get I did a couple of things I didn't realize how competitive right children's book world is I mean virtually anyone who's ever illustrated has tried to do a children's book at some point the other thing was I didn't realize how much money a publisher has to spend to publish a book you know yes it's a big investment it's a big leap of faith on the publisher's behalf so it's much much easier if you've had a book published you're a much safer a bit than somebody who hasn't had a book published.

45:02So that first hump is the hardest hump of all to get over. Did you feel disillusioned? I mean, you must have felt disillusioned during that process. And I think what's important, you just saying that out loud and, you know, I'm trying to more and more share the true business journey that I'm on with my followers, because it actually helps other people realise, oh, it happens to you too. Okay. So actually, you've been doing this for 20 years. I've just started. I thought it was me. And I'm like, no, don't worry, it's happening to me too. And I think that there's this, A, this really good thing about just saying that, you know, JK Rowling and how many publishers you were, just knowing these stories, but also that you must have felt disillusioned.

45:43And as creatives, you know, it can be very, very easy to take that personally to, because there's not much else. It's not about the, I mean, it is a little bit maybe about the money because they're betting on you, but it's not the same as let's say an investment deal what advice would you give to people of becoming an artist or becoming an illustrator or they want to do a kid's book or anything within that creative sphere what keeps you going when it seems all stacked against you well you have to i mean as i said before there is a hell of a lot of luck involved you have to be good you have to have talent you have to be good from the art side and from the word side depending which side you're coming or in my case from both sides but lots of people are good so you just have to keep it sounds it's so obvious but you have to keep putting yourself out there putting your work on people's desks and then one day this is where the luck comes in one day the right book will land on the right person's desk at the right time that's all you can do keep putting yourself out there keep putting yourself out there especially when you're doing something like this which is as you said you know it's subjective really you know it's not there's not a right or wrong answer here it's just it's about opinion it's like the magazine cover you're talking about exactly exactly like that one person likes one thing another person likes another thing but you just got to keep keep going and you're right you know for four or five years i was doing it and i honestly had so many ups and downs it was quite i you know i had various things happened i was offered a book deal one day, unbelievably excited again.

47:16Me and my wife had champagne that evening. The next day, they kind of rescinded the offer unless I did this other thing. And my agent at the time just said, no, we're pulling out the deal. And I was like, no. Hang on a minute. I've got a hangover. You know, yeah, exactly. But these sorts of things kept happening. So it was a real rollercoaster. And then actually what happened in the end was I decided, that's it. This is not good for my health. I've got a nice job. At this time, I was the art director on the Observer magazine. I had a really nice job. And I just thought, no, I'm going to press the reset button.

47:49And I changed my agent, actually. And there was nothing particularly wrong with the agent. I just wanted a fresh start. I just Googled children's book agents. And this company called United Agents came up. I got in touch with them. And a lady called Jodie emailed me back. And I went in to see her. And that moment when I met her, everything kind of changed for me. because as I said, my previous agent was absolutely fine, really nice guy. But when I met her, she just said a few things that just, they just, she just kind of changed my perspective on things. And she gave me really, really, one really good piece of advice, which was the next time you're in the room with, you know, talking about whatever book you're trying to work up with these various publishers, just have a portfolio of children's book staple illustrations with you.

48:34So go away, spend a couple of months drawing a pirate scene, a dinosaur scene, a dragon scene. Just draw some kid characters, draw some animal characters, take them with you. And once you finish talking about this one specific book, just show them that. So I did that and I drawn this page full of animal characters. And I can't even really remember doing it, but I had this little penguin family. And I had a day of publisher meetings talking about this one book that I couldn't get published. and about three of them said, oh, those penguins are great. Have you got a story for the penguins? So I stopped thinking on my feet.

49:10I had another... She's like, of course. Well, I did. I said, yeah, I had this story about some kids who were flying a kite and they ended up getting sort of blown away with the kite and I said, I'm just going to put penguins into that story because penguins can't fly. And I did it and I wrote this story in about a week and did a few illustrations, sent it back to these publishers and having spent five years not getting anything, they all made book contract offers.

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50:22And this was the first book blown away. This was blown away. published in 2014 and it told a tale of a penguin and an adventure and then he was blown away on a kite and it won the waterstones children's book prize yeah um and i know parents and children just were absolutely captivated and so look at that if we just take a moment of that to anyone listening five years it's reminding me of something that potentially i've i've learned along the way as well, and we've mentioned here before, which is when doors feel closed. So, but yet you don't quite know that they're closed. So maybe if we think about this book, you know, five years doing this book, and actually if someone was looking down, it's like, Rob, the doors are closed.

51:11You don't realize that you're banging on the closed door. Suddenly this wonderful person, maybe an angel comes into your life, Jodie Hodge from United agents comes into your life gives you that piece of advice we always talk about angels coming in and just being there as part of your journey yeah and led you to the door that was always going to be open yeah once it flung open the universe gave you three offers for the book yeah and it was published yeah it was more than three in the end other people started piling and i had about i had my choice of publishers and it was published and then as you said another huge stroke of luck it won the waterstones prize that is yeah i can imagine you know that was one person whose name was melissa cox who was the children's buyer at waterstones she really championed that book in all of those judging panels or whatever it was and it won the waterstones prize which means that it's in the window of every waterstones in the country for a month it was outselling harry potter for a month i mean it must be is that a bit like the oscars no not quite not quite the oscars you can tell i'm not really know what i'm talking about what would it be like well no it's close yeah it's big deal But it's for first-time authors.

52:19Right, first-time authors, okay. So, yeah, it's a big deal and some, you know, big names have won that award. And basically, once you win that award, that's it, you're off and running because suddenly everyone in every bookseller in the country knows your name because you won the Waterstones Prize. So I suddenly had this amazing start to my career, albeit having had a lot of rejection and a lot of heartache along to get there. But I honestly didn't give up, you know. You didn't give up. I had a caveat because I knew that I was good enough by that point because so many people told me I was very, very close.

52:53And so that does give you a bit more of an impetus to kind of keep going. But I did keep going and I, you know, I did come close to giving up a couple of times, but I did keep going. And then Lady Luck, you know, helped me out a little bit. And now you've written, as you said, 15 books, what we talked about, and you've had Sunday Times bestsellers and your books have been read on CBeeBee's Bedtime Stories by Tom Hardy. Sorry, that's now another level, right? I've had two Tom Hardy books. So you've done sort of math head, great at art. We've got nearly a professional footballer. You're now a famous author, but you've had Tom Hardy read your books twice.

53:33It gets better actually because Tom Hardy, he was doing a film red carpet thing just for Christmas and somebody asked him the question. They said, of all the things you've done, my favourite is the CBeebies bedtime stories. and they said, oh, which one is your, which one was your, because he's read quite a few, which one's your favourite? And without skipping a beat, he said, oh, Dog Out by me. He said my book was his favourite. And I was like, and suddenly people started sending me it and I was just like, it was very, it was a very nice moment. What a beautiful world. And it's, again, it reminds me of something Sir John Hegarty said to me once, which is do interesting things and interesting things will happen to you.

54:12And it's this beautiful idea of letting, you know, just having a less ordinary path and then less ordinary things happen. And you must get, you've got a new book out, it's Draw With Rob Vehicles and it's crowned full of activities and drawings and puzzles. And you must love it coming out with new things because you mentioned quite often in this interview, parents and children showing you what they're doing. and that interaction, that community that you have built. You wouldn't have thought that, right, at the beginning of your career, especially doing books. Never. You were going to have a sort of Rob community.

54:52Yeah. Is it like family now? Like, is this part of your life? Yeah, it's part of my life. Every single day I get sent pictures of children, usually holding up their drawings, either of my characters or from my videos, but also with their story ideas. I get messages from parents every day. quite often like children who have various conditions or autism or drawing is very very helpful in that circumstance so i get lots and lots of messages like that i get recognized in the street you know people come up to me and you know which is i never in a million years but i thought that would happen um but almost one of the best things so as i said earlier you know we have to as authors we also have to go out on the road and we do these i do basically all the literary festivals and i don't get to do as many schools as i used to but i have done hundreds and hundreds of school visits.

55:39And then now I find myself standing on stage. You know, I'm doing it in a couple of weeks time. I'm at the Royal Festival Hall in front of 1 ,200 people. Are you? In the actual Royal Festival Hall. I've done it before. And I do my event and I read the books and then we have these signings afterwards, which are, I mean, they're like five hours long. It's crazy. But that's my, I think that's my favourite part of the job. Yeah. Because I get to meet these kids in person who are so excited to meet me, so excited. we always do a draw along in the show and they bring their drawings after us and I get to see all their little penguins and um they're so excited to to meet me and show me their drawings read me their stories and we have a photo together and I think it's very rare that you get to meet I can imagine yes your readers yes like like that so I feel I feel unbelievably lucky but you're right it is a community a draw with Rob yeah the draw with Rob community really that's kind of sprung up around this thing and to go back you know you said john hegarty gave you that nice little quote the one that i always use is from bugsy malone i always say you know you give a little love and it all comes back to you and i think well you know that draw with rob thing i genuinely i did not do it because i wanted to become this kind of lockdown joe wicks you know i did it because i thought parents like me are going to be looking for something for their kids to do so genuinely you know my wife says yeah you know it's a rare occasion when you've actually done something properly altruistically and i say yeah and i think that the universe somehow is like you know rewarding me for that now every day with these lovely messages and this lovely community yeah and i can't tell you how lovely it is it really is it's just such i feel so privileged so lucky to have that you know yeah it's rare in this in world of children's authors as well.

57:27I know that. Yeah, I can imagine. And also, I think, I don't know if it's the penguin thing that's coming up, and I'm thinking Happy Feet, and then I'm thinking Nemo, and then I'm thinking the Nemo slipstream, you know, where they go into the warm current that they're riding through. And I was talking about that lately, because I think of it very much as I find my Nemo stream, which is when I'm in my flow, and I'm doing my best work. And I always say that I'm in my Nemo space. And it's bringing to mind that, maybe it's because I'm thinking of all your animals, but also that you have found your less ordinary stream to go through your life.

58:07You found all your other people to join you and you've created, who would have thought the young Rob would have been standing in front of all these people doing the things that you're doing, having children come to you, reading their stories, a five hour long queue. Isn't that amazing? And actually maybe for those listening that's what you can do too yeah it's like none of us think about this sort of world that we could create but actually that is what you can do you literally can create a less ordinary life of all these things and it can happen and it's true do you think about your future now are you in a happy place in your life now and when you think about your future is it about keeping doing the same is this where who you are now yeah I about a year ago I met up with loads of old school friends kind of a little kind of informal school reunion and there's one lad who's in my class at school called Owen and he and he said I said I'm so lucky look at this what I get to do for my job now he says you're not lucky you're just doing what you were always meant to do you found the answer this is this was your purpose and I really do think he had a point you know i found my happy place and i went by this kind of securitist route which i wouldn't change by the way i wouldn't change any of it i mean i met my wife was the editor of just 17 that's right you know apart from anything else you know that's you know um but i you know i i definitely am in my happy place you know and i talked to my wife about you know she says you're never going to retire are you and i said well i feel like i retired 10 years ago when my first book came out because I'm now just doing what I love.

59:44It's fun. I get to come out here into my little studio and draw pictures of, you know, sausage dogs and penguins and, you know, whatever it is for a living and write and make up stories. And make up stories and make kids happy. And make kids happy. You are, I'm lucky, I'm lucky to have spoken to you today. I feel really, really privileged actually. And you're a big deal in households up and down the country. But in mine, particularly my niece Olive you know she loves you can you tell me at this part of the podcast I relate our stories as entrepreneurs and and those who have created a sort of less ordinary life to the roller coaster that we're on because we certainly know and we've just spoken about your moments can you tell me if you had to identify a low moment in your roller coaster what that would be oh that's a tricky one well I guess the the lowest moment once once I kind of realized that I really wanted to do this, wanted to be somebody who writes stories for children and illustrates these stories.

1:00:41I guess the low moments were in that four-year period when I could not quite get that book over the line. Because I often think, a friend, my daughter, my eldest daughter, Ella, had a friend who was an unbelievably good swimmer. She was right on the verge of Olympic qualification and representing her country. But she was like something like two hundredths of a second too slow to qualify for the Olympics and um swimmers in particular you know their career's over when they're like 22 23 and so I often think is it worse to have that to be that close as opposed to being like five seconds too slow so you know you know and so because I was so close I was in the room with all the publishers and still couldn't get a book over the line I do think I had that kind of those kind of dark nights of the soul where I just thought you know this is for me but unfortunately by then I knew that that was what I wanted to do so I do think that you know they do say don't they that the darkest hour is just before the dawn so maybe you do need somehow as Robbie Williams said you know you you've got to have those lows to taste the highs and so I definitely think that's probably in this particular journey my lowest moments were in that time I think.

1:01:53And conversely when you're with your penguins sitting in the cart with the wind in your hair under your cap what would it be what would that moment be for you the highest you mean yeah the high that the highest high that you feel you've experienced i honestly get that every day you know getting these messages from the kids that's the best part of the job and it sounds so cheesy people probably don't believe me but it genuinely is you know you i get these lovely emails from parents that tell me what a difference i've made to their children's lives and i you know what i don't think they'll ever forget they'll ever forget that and then i get to meet i know you I get to meet them in person as well and they can tell me to their face.

1:02:31So I think knowing the fact that you're making a difference in shaping a child's life, even if it is in a small way, that's the real privilege of this job, the job that I get to do. Yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine. And your soul must feel so full as well with that. Rob, you've been amazing. I'm going to hand over now, if that's okay with you, to your letter to your younger self. Oh, yes. As I said, it's been a privilege and thank you for allowing us to hear a little bit of your soul today. Oh, well, thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed it. And I really enjoyed writing this letter to myself, actually.

1:03:07It's a really interesting thing to do, isn't it? Yes. You probably didn't think you had the time. That's normally the feedback, but actually the process is a cathartic one. It really is. It really is. I hand over to you now, Rob. Okay, here we go. Dear Younger Rob Right now, you're probably sitting at your desk in your bedroom or at the dining table drawing away, making comics or trying to perfectly capture the way the light hits those apples I'll bet you're dreaming about what life could look like if you made a career out of art Maybe you're wondering if it's even possible if anyone out there actually gets to draw for a living Well, let me tell you something It absolutely is possible and you absolutely will One day, you'll be standing on stage in front of thousands of people, watching them laugh and cheer, reading them your stories, and best of all, getting them all to draw along with you.

1:03:59Kids will queue up to meet you, clutching books with your name on the cover, excited to show you the characters they've created because you inspired them to pick up a pencil. You'll get messages from parents telling you how your drawings have helped their children in ways you could never have imagined. They'll also tell you that your drawings have helped them in ways you could never have imagined. You will even break world records together. This is where you're headed, but to get there, you need to do one thing. Believe in yourself. There will be times when there's doubt, when the safe, sensible path feels tempting, when people, careers officers, teachers, friends suggest that maybe you should try something else.

1:04:36Ignore them. Plough your own furrow. Blaze your own trail. Stay true to what you love because that's where the magic happens. You don't have to fit into anyone else's mould. You're at your best when you do things your way. And to do that, you need to dig deep and figure out what truly is driving you. What is at the core of what you want to do? Who are you trying to communicate with? What kind of stories do you want to tell and why? Listen to your gut because deep down, you already know all the answers. The more you trust yourself and stay connected to what excites and inspires you, the more your work will resonate with others.

1:05:14There will also be times when you feel like you're in the wrong place, like you don't belong. When you first get to art college, you'll look around and wonder if you're with the right people. You'll wonder if you're ever going to find your tribe, the ones who truly get you, but you will. You will soon meet the ones who see the world the way you do, who inspire you and push you forward, and you will have made friends for life. Oh, and keep an eye out for someone called Ali. She has a huge part to play in your life, the biggest part of all. There will be moments when opportunities come your way that seem exciting, but something in your gut tells you they're not quite right.

1:05:47Trust that instinct. Not every book deal, every job, every collaboration is meant for you and that's okay. Know your worth. Have the confidence to say no when something doesn't feel right because the right opportunities, the ones that align with your vision, they will come and when they do they'll be even better than you imagined. And while you're working hard and chasing your dreams, take a moment to appreciate something incredibly special. Mum and dad. Not everyone is lucky enough to have parents who support a career in art, who encourage their child to pursue what they love instead of steering them towards something safer or more conventional.

1:06:22They believe in you. They always have. And that's a gift not to be taken for granted. Make sure you thank them. You're going to work hard. You're going to push through rejection. You're going to have moments when you wonder if it's all worth it. But it is. Keep going. Keep drawing. Believe in your writing. Keep trusting that little voice inside that tells you to stick to your guns. Trust your ideas. Trust the talents you've been given. because one day you'll look back and realise that every decision, every late night spent drawing and writing, every risk you took, it was all leading to the place that you always wanted to get to.

1:06:56So keep that pencil sharpened, keep your confidence high and get ready for one hell of an adventure. You can do this. Love, future, Rob. There we go. That's made me emotional because I've just thought about your whole... It was just written like a story. And I just felt like I was in, I was turning pages as you were reading and I just felt how glorious if that was actually written to children and to believe in themselves, to have that courage. And as you have, to explore a path where you trust your talents, to recognise that you have a talent. So often we don't even know and we're too scared to say and all these sorts of things.

1:07:42And I just thought that was absolutely beautiful. You should illustrate that one day. It's just the most wonderful, wonderful thing. And you are wonderful. I know we've laughed over the course of this interview for all the wonderful things that you are, but you are. And I just wanted to thank you for everything you did during that lockdown and everything that you are doing. And the fact that you're high with all your accolades and everything is making kids happy and allowing them to be who they are. and in the world that we've got coming up and the things that we've spoken about, we need beacons of light like you.

1:08:18And so I'm a huge fan, as you know, and I thank you so much for sharing your story with us today. Oh, thanks so much for having me, Olly. It's been so lovely. And thanks for allowing me to kind of look inside myself and have a little journey of my own. So it's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for joining me today. If you've enjoyed this episode, can I ask that you share it with a friend and like, subscribe and review it too, so that together we can inspire even more people to follow their dreams to build a life they love.