S22 Ep6: Alice Temperley MBE, Founder & Creative Director of Temperley London: The importance of finding your flock and staying strong

0:00You have to be nimble and you have to keep changing. you have to keep evolving. Everything happens for a reason. Somehow you have to sort of trust in that. I have to confess, I was more than a little excited for this conversation because I am speaking to one of my real life heroines, the truly free spirited, undisputed queen of bohemian fashion, Alice Templey, MBE, founder of Templey London. My sister said, Holly, just try and be cool with Alice. Just try and tone it down. And throughout the entire podcast, I was just basically a Cheshire cat because here I was speaking to someone that I feel has represented a timeless, unique take and brand.

0:56And in this day and age, I think we keep being fed sort of vacuous, grey, vanilla, I don't know, companies. And here is one that I feel has stuck to its roots for now a remarkable 25 years. And I find that so inspiring. And so I wanted to delve in to how you can do that in fashion in that fickle world and when trends come and go and how can you buck them and how can you stay true to your vision and your dreams and I wanted to know about the woman behind this company with her Somerset roots and her deep passion for craftsmanship and craftswomenship and that grit and resilience to be able to deal with the highs and the lows and I know that she has gone through you know the recession the COVID Brexit it's just been a real roller coaster for that brand and there has been one lady at the helm and so it was one of those conversations and especially that letter at the end it just spoke to me it was like 25 years being wrapped up into a letter to her younger self that she, after all that she has achieved, so vulnerably and generously shared with us.

2:23And so it is a gorgeous, gorgeous episode and one to absolutely enjoy. Bow your head and let your eyelids close on down. Where we're going, you won't need to bring your frown. Hi, I'm Holly Tucker and welcome to my podcast, Conversations of Inspiration. I've reached out to founders and those who simply inspire me to share their hard-earned wisdom with you. My hope is that collectively, these remarkable realizations will help you on your own journey. I like to think of it as inspiration for life. So, let's begin this week's conversation of inspiration. Alice what an absolute pleasure to meet you today it is no exaggeration to say that Templarley London is one of my most favorite brands I have off air completely gone over the top my sister said Holly play it cool and I said Carrie I promise you I will she's always my wise one right play it cool no I liked it played it completely uncool Alice welcome to Conversations of Inspiration Thank you very much.

3:36You made my day. You made me feel Monday is way less grey than it was. So thank you. Oh, well, thank you. I mean, everything is unbelievable. It's bohemian, it's femininity, it's creative energy. It speaks to me so much. And I regularly draw over all your colours, your eccentric prints, your exquisite details. I'm always liking your posts and you're now on my podcast. So yeah, it's going to be a good week. That's all I can say. So I wanted to ask you about how today, I mean, it is a Monday that we're recording this, but you're quite an outdoorsy lady. I mean, it's spring has sprung, thank goodness.

4:18But I know that for you, you're a morning person. You're going to like the extra daylight because you have to feed the animals before the school run. You've got the alpacas, the donkeys, the shire horse called Tiny. And then that's all before the school runs. So are you happy that spring has sprung? I'm so happy. The fact that sunshine's coming through has lifted my impractical cold winter existence. I mean, the fantasy of having an English countryside home in the winter is definitely kind of a romance that's sort of overblown when it's muddy and windy and cold. So, yeah, spring is a joy. So I'm an early person.

5:00So I love spring and summer. I get up early to feed my lingerie and then my son before the school run. Yeah, I start my days early. And so really Instagram is that typical Instagram where it's just don't believe everything you see. Yeah, God, Instagram's a shield, isn't it? It's an illusion. An illusion, yeah. Nobody sees me how I go to school on the school run, thank God. My son is like, do not get out of the car. That's quite funny. But yes. But I mean, a shire horse called Tiny, you also, in certain seasons, allow some of your animals. This is, you have created the dream of my life that my husband doesn't thank you for, which is firstly, I have to have the animals to start with.

5:45But then secondly, I'm going to be allowing them in the house. Yes. Tell me about this. Who's allowed, which animals, is there specific ones that are allowed in the house or all of them? Well, all of them are allowed in the house as sometimes. I've had my shy horse break in one or two times going up the stairs and into the house. And he is 19 hands. He's huge, but weirdly so delicate in the house. He sort of creeps. He's not around in all the rooms because obviously it's floorboards and he might go through. But where there's stone and things, he's allowed. And he sort of tiptoes around the house.

6:21He's in the dining room and there are people eating. I mean, he's not always allowed in the house. I'd be mad if I let him in the house. But he's so gentle and so he's huge. He's like a dinosaur, really. But he's as gentle as a mouse. He's so thoughtful. And then the donkeys stroll in and they're naughty. Obviously, they break in. They did actually kick the door down about a week ago, demanding food, and I wasn't there. So I went in and they trash everything. And they're very clever. They're very funny. The Apacas I have are too stupid to come in the house because they're just so wary and scared.

6:53and they're not wired properly, alpacas. Yeah. So they've all got different personalities, but I'd say that the donkeys are the naughtiest. What are the donkeys' names? Lulu and Lockie. Oh, jeez. Jeez. Just the dream. The dream. I went to see my first donkeys, actually, with my niece last weekend. She bought me a picnic with the donkeys and we fell in love with this donkey called Duncan. We spoke all about our dream that maybe, you know if frank allows me to duncan's going to come and live with us i was about to put him in the back seat and i told her all about you allowing this she loves it loves hearing these stories about the lady in the house allowing the things in she's like you you're going to do this auntie i'm like yeah i'm a bit far away from that bit but that is the goal um but let's get back into the more sensible conversation here holly which is i'm talking to alice templey and actually we go back in this podcast to the beginnings and after researching your story just like you it's highly original and reading about this free-spirited upbringing with your three siblings and your parents on the cider farm in Somerset now it sounds like a dream basically when you read it I couldn't believe it it was sort of like the the naughty famous five you know it's it's got a bit of Glastonbury in there.

8:14It's got cider. Those sorts of things. Tell me about that beginning with Matilda, Mary and Henry. And was it a feral childhood? Yep. I mean, we grew up in the middle of nowhere. At that time, it was even more sort of rural at that time. And we weren't all driving around. And we were very much as kids in the seasons of the farm. So we were apple picking, we were cider making, we were looking after the sheep, we were delivering lambs we were basically going through the on the farm and we all had long hair kind of covered in straw hand-me-down clothes covered in mud my dad I think wanted me to be a boy so we were always outside there was no tv there were certainly no girly shoes and I think my upbringing definitely has influenced the way that my feet are still on the ground but I absolutely love very very feminine stuff as well as having my tomboy approach to everything there's that sort of escapism through being a farm kid into that otherworldliness and we were naughty and we were we were off out on horse little ponies on the moor or up to no good and because and then I think also because we were inspired by my mum on the farm we were all makers so none of us have really worked for anybody else before we've all ended up making our own things so my sister does skincare another one's taken over the farm after doing um science PhD and being in tropical medicine but now a photographer um and the other one my brother is a filmmaker so we've all we all we all make stuff and I think that's but growing up in the countryside where you're given freedom and and you actually just end up having to make stuff to keep yourself occupied maybe and hard work as well I mean what a farm must have taught you in terms of I mean we're going to get into that but like graft.

10:04Yeah, we were never allowed to stay in bed past 7.30 and outside and if the day was a nice day and then to bed ridiculously early until we all really rebelled and became really naughty teenagers. Discovered raving and such like. Such like things. I mean, the working farm producing cider and I read that every year there would be this annual trip to Glastonbury Festival to sell the cider. in the double-deckered bus, of course. And it's become a really important part of your sort of family heritage. And you first went as a toddler and you've been every year since. You mentioned Mischief as a teenager.

10:46And I saw on the photos on Instagram that you were there last year and you managed to bring the whole family together, I think. I mean, you must remember, you must have had all your sort of milestones and Glastonbury was part of all of those milestones. Each year you were sort of growing. And I heard that you had an embarrassing moment at 12 when your dad decided that you staying out all night wasn't right and you didn't get back till dawn. You've done your research, haven't you? Yeah, we were naughty. Obviously, I've been to every Glastonbury since I was two years old. So that's almost the best part of a year of my life I've had on the Glastonbury site.

11:24So I do know every sort of secret place and my way around that site very, very well. And of course, every year you go and you have as much fun as you possibly can with an extended family, like family and siblings and people that work on the side of us as an extended family. So we're all there and we've all had our kids there since they were born. And they're all now teenagers and now starting to work on the bar as well. So it's a really lovely extended family of total madness and fun. So I'm very lucky that Emily and Michael have had us and the family there for so many years. I think my dad had the first ever bar at Glastonbury and we're still there.

12:03I love this. And this is this, you see all of this. I mean, for everyone that's a fan of yours, we look at your past and this, your DNA and this individualistic sort of way that you're thinking and almost cool is part of your DNA. And so for everyone here who's never been to Glastonbury and you're saying, yeah, yeah, no, I've been there since I was two years old. You know, This you can see in everything that you create. What do you think when you look back at your childhood now and you look at the farm, you look at the Glastonbury, you look at watching your parents, well, you look at the drive to run a farm, the drive to run a business.

12:42You must have been eating these conversations every morning over breakfast. Has it shaped you to the woman that you are today? Has that had the impact on how you approach life? Yeah, I think that it's, I mean, you say it's sort of all the effort, kind of the coolness, but we don't really know anything other than being from Somerset, loving our roots, being passionate about seasons, being passionate about, you know, creative and craft and the kind of the slower way of being. when I go to kind of fast paces places that I travel you know I can't wait to come back to Somerset and I think the attitude that we have is to sort of really appreciate the slower things and appreciate craft and appreciate authenticity and storytelling and I think that maybe is what my brand is known for is the ability to tell a story and it's being a kind of true British authentic brand because we have the roots of Somerset you know it's been the bucolic kind of scenes of Somerset that really set the brand onto that global stage it was pictures of us on the side of farm pictures of me and my mum's mud house pictures of loads of pictures of our yearly sort of celebratory parties where you're throwing all sorts of amazing people together and that experience and liberation freedom that you get from a festival or an amazing party where people are dressing up and feeling free and feeling liberated has given the brand a sense of I guess celebration freedom and um desirability that's just it's not conformist if it is it is is very free and for years I tried to fight the fact that I had the tag of being you know bohemian and I was like oh god bohemian um but but yes i mean i am a kind of i guess i'm sort of modern maybe modern gypsy slash bohemian slash and i'll embrace it because it is it's about referencing lots of different historical things and putting them together in a way only an english person can and also being a woman and loving all of those touch points of whether it's festivals all the parties all the travel all the amazing remote places we used to travel as kids and always collecting things along the way you're always collecting ideas and things and putting them together in a in a very different way and I think I'm sure that my upbringing of growing up with amazing kind of artisans around whether it's stained glass makers potters textile artists sculptors and the people that have surrounded the way that we we grew up has given us our own story and our own appreciation of things um so I feel very lucky in that respect how do you feel when When you say something so unique in terms of this day and age, you know, the artisans, the stained glass makers to Somerset, to air, to nature, bringing through bohemian, all these English, British.

15:44And you say all these things and I'm like listening and I'm thinking, yeah, how does that? And we're going to get back into your story, but how does that sit in the modern world today? how did we we touched on speed and grayness out there potentially because we're becoming automated and is that why you've embraced the word bohemian because in a way it's like that's cutting through now because for some of us we need to hold on to things that you create because we don't want to live in the world the cookie cutter world that we're being pushed into yeah and i think if you I mean, if you go anywhere nowadays, airports, London, underground, wherever, everybody's very grey.

16:25They're very kind of denim. They're very T-shirts, very uncelebratory in a way that, you know, clothes should make you feel a certain way. People should be expressing themselves and being more individual. And, you know, people are pretty down and out right now in the fact that it's always become quite grey, quite beige, quite normal. and I think I'm hoping that you know people are going to start finding their appreciation in as the seasons churn and churn and churn and churn it's finding a voice and expression of the way that they feel and there is an appreciation to craft if you look at all the luxury brands at the moment everybody is telling that story of you know how things are made where they're made authenticity yeah and there are so many brands out there and there's so many all sorts in the arts there's so much competition unless you stay true to what your identity is and true to what people know you for they might as well go somewhere else you can't try and please loads of people yeah and over the years i've been told to do this and do that and do more for the middle east and do more for the american market and you just end up trying to please everybody and nobody especially yourself like yes and even recently i've told to do collections that were way too big and i'm like no we should be making more locally we should be telling a story we should be celebrating all those people that make things all the amazing weavers in somerset that do you know the biggest um customer actually is hermes which is amazing it's just in wellington up the road they do lots of tweeds for chanel and they're right here in somerset so why aren't we using these people and moving the atelier here to somerset was incredibly important for me to have a community here grow a community here find local producers tell a story make it more authentic like you know I'm from Somerset why am I kind of working out of an industrial place in London when I can be based in Somerset working with Somerset and incredibly credible people so I built this beautiful studio and found the most amazing people that had all moved to the countryside to have a kind of life change and choice during COVID this was and more and more and more the relevance is slow down refine the collections make them smaller especially the next summer when you'll see and really celebrate making sure that we're not just doing what everybody else does it's got to be like got to look at it and go i get it and then look at and understand how we make it so yeah it's it's been a very interesting learning curve to go all the way around the world and have shops all over the place in america and everywhere yeah and then stop wholesaling and then really think and distill what you do and try and really really focus on where you come from and try not to listen to all those people that think you should be something else like yes no this is what I am and that's it yeah that's that's what the brand is I mean it's it I read that you wanted to be Ginger Rogers when you were little and that you you were a creative child and you you took to shiny things and jewellery and making and costumes.

19:26Tell me about your experience at school. Did you enjoy it? No. I wanted you to sort of maybe just be that sort of only creative type, but then it really annoyed me because you took A-levels in science as well, which means that, you know, your father wanted you to become a vet. So it means you're really smart as well as all of this. No, not necessarily. I'm cripplingly, well, I'm dyslexic. Me too. And I was never told that at school. So I was always told, especially by my dad, who's like a tyrant, that I was just, it was a, he said it was a middle-class expression for sick people. And I wasn't very clever.

20:04And then everything was like never, never allowed. And actually his spelling, I know, his spelling is actually probably worse than mine. But I'm sure he is as well. But obviously with his upbringing, he was never allowed to admit it because he's from a load of Cambridge academics anyway. I unfortunately have his skill in that, well, unskill in that department. But growing up at school, I didn't like school because obviously I was dyslexic. I excelled in things like not really science, but I like my science teachers, so I was good at science and then art. Yeah. And then I just didn't really like anything else.

20:41No. I had a maths teacher. You used to sort of bend over the table and show everybody her suspenders. and she was just, I mean, I just did not like school. All sorts of things happened. My science teacher went home and murdered his wife after one detention centre with the team. And then my school was just the local comprehensive in Somerset. At that time, just all sorts of stuff right now. I have so many stories. That's sounding like a sort of, I don't know, the new Netflix series of something, doesn't it? I mean, it's right. Even the RE teacher got fired because he thought Jesus left in his cupboard.

21:21I mean, it was like, it was really funny. So I didn't like school very much. And then I went to also a college that I can't be too rude about because it's in my local vicinity, but I kind of was kind of naughty and distracted and whatever. Then I decided that I had to move to London because I just had to get away from Somerset. and I'd heard about St. Martin's Art School and I went off with my portfolio because I used to make stuff all the time, make stuff, draw stuff, loads of sketchbooks. Very prolific on that front of just always making, drawing, making, painting. And they said, we don't normally tell people, but you've got a place, we're going to see you in September.

22:02So then I went off to London and that was that. I moved to London when I was, I think I was 17 when I moved. Yeah, but I didn't really get on very well with school and I was a sort of tomboy. I felt girls, very difficult. Girls were just too bitchy and sort of two-faced. So lots of my friends were just male and I just couldn't wait to get out to London. And that's what I did. And at the same time, I read that you also were creating leather jackets, bias-cut dresses, you were selling them. Am I right in thinking that, I mean, you've got this background, you were eating business for breakfast slightly by osmosis potentially and stuff was you know was being spoken about and from an early on stage that you also were thinking about commerciality or you were starting to do something yourself so that time where you are at centralst martin's and you're also starting to sell things what was that like did that help you see the other side of what you know you're what you're studying and then ultimately what it can do for you well i get at that point i was just making all my fabrics and my things aside from leather jackets but I was embroidering them I was making everything that I was making in my term my college work into garments to sell so I could support myself so it was either making things into things to sell so I luckily had a few stores one in Covent Garden and one on the King's Road and then LA and Fred Segal and these were people that two I went to see and then the other one Fred Segal I think spotted me out and about wearing something and I just used to make everything that I had at college into things and sold them.

23:40I'm miraculous, really. I mean, and I worked in bars. I did a lot of work in bars. So a bit of those two to sort of pay my way through college because doing anything to do with textiles is really expensive because you have to do like a portfolio a month. Yeah. And yeah, that's basically what I did. But I always made and sold stuff from the age of about 11. I made some really shitty little earrings and went to the bead shop with my granddad's girlfriend and um used to spend like 40 quid which people thought was a fortune on beads anyway i used to make them all up with the kind of wires and bits and then and then printed mirror surrounds and then some textile arts like things for the wall and then started making my little brother when he was about two kind of weird outfits and then myself and then and then it evolved from that so it's always making and selling always making creating and a year after you graduated from St.

24:32Martin's and the Royal College, sorry, after St. Martin's and you launched your brand Template London with a small collection of printed and embroidered pieces before opening your first Template London boutique in Notting Hill in 2001. Now that's a bit of a jump, I mean I'm condensing there, condensing quite a bit there. Tell me what the early days of setting your company up were like for you um because i know you were working with your husband lars at the time your sister mary and i laughed so much when i read that because by the way i did this as well her name was um margaret um you had an alter ego called lulu who worked in accounts um to chase invoices and ours was called margaret who used to chase chase into it she was a real bitch as well we made her really really harsh it's really good isn't it tell me about those early days hold on a minute I'm just gonna go and get Lulu hello oh don't get Lulu um tell me about those early days I I printed a lot of the fabric myself I was working with the manufacturers myself and making two and they were I mean looking back so much fun and we had no idea at the beginning really what we were doing apart from we had a few supplies we were making great things but we had no real idea of margins and deliveries and cycles and and then we we grew and we grew and we were selling in all the matches and then soon net-a-portes and things like that and then you end up doing one collection and then four collections and then bridal and then everything else and then you just do too much as well as saying we're just doing too much for everybody but they were really fun and we used to work and we used to go out until about five or six in the morning and then still be back at our desks at nine o 'clock in the morning.

26:21And we did that for about 10 years. We were wild and worked hard and maybe would have been much more successful in business if we hadn't been as wild. Oh my gosh. But the creativity was on an all-time high. And the creativity was there. And actually, you know what? Going back to that true essence of what the brand was is exactly post all of the lessons that we've learned through just horrific Brexit and COVID. That's what people want. like going back to things like 2009 of when those amazing shows we were doing in new york you know who is that woman now where is she what's she doing and that's what i'm kind of studying at the moment because it's so relevant what we were doing then to what we're doing now has almost been seeing and feeling like a kind of interest not startup again but after covid you really want to address what and why you're doing things and when do you really feel the brand was really on on point for for you and it's things have cycles it's so interesting where you often reference back and i'm like oh that was 2003 oh that was 2009 that's 2017 and that was and it's just really interesting to have all of those cycles because if you think the amount of things that we've we've worked on over the last oh my god we're going into 25 years can you believe it literally amazing it's like i never thought that i would be this mad for this long but i completely honestly am um you know it can be a love hate exasperated exhausting and then you know you throw in a few kind of cooks here and there and but yeah i mean the love is if it is the creating part

28:08after 20 years of championing small businesses one thing I've learned is that life is too short not to do what you love by starting your own business you can follow your dreams work in a way that suits you and live every day knowing you're getting to do what makes your heart beat faster so if you've always dreamed of starting your business but you're not sure where to begin Just visit the business advice section on holly.co. It's totally free. The step-by-step guide. Because the truth is, you don't need a complicated business plan or even any experience. You just need passion and a real desire to want to change the world for the better.

28:53Our articles, podcast episodes, and also my book, Do What You Love, Love What You Do, are full of insight, as well as our ungoogleable tips and invaluable nuggets of information that no one tells you to help demystify it all and set you on your path. Visit holly.co to find out more or follow me at hollytucker on Instagram. But for now, let's get back to that conversation of inspiration.

29:28we're now in that place where you're starting you're having fun you're working hard you're going out there and you went to show your work in london before moving your shows to new york in the noughties where you open this 5 000 square foot showroom that moment you hosted these parties and morning shopping parties, and they were doubled as trunk shows where people could buy your designs. And I love reading this, that you basically made it exciting to be in business and you would stage it and you went out and you brought everything to life. And this must have been this moment where your brand is, you sort of referenced it, juggernauts, right?

30:09Driving, driving hard and you're driving hard. I love the fact that you called your shows and morning shopping parties breakfast at templeies i mean just of course that bit when you're riding this wave was it the sort of thing like this is what it's all meant to be like you know this is how it's done go with it go with it were there times where you were worried that you were running with it too quickly or were you just hook line and sinker this is what you wanted well i think the times before the 2008 recession were very different to the times almost since that time yeah and we i mean i was a baby i was only 27 and of course we were going all over the place doing all and there was no real time to think and you know if anna went to phone and wanted to do the five pace piece in american vogue or the english vogue or all of that you sort of didn't you just sort of it happened without even thinking that it was a big deal and you kind of look back and you're like wow that's quite a journey and it was quite incredible support and and you know an amazing industry acknowledgement and you know we were in all the department stores it was selling about 300 stores at the peak and um my goodness and then all brands like go through i think different stages don't they and i went through certainly a divorce and a child and a this and a that and then the first 2008 recession which was when it all happened that and then a divorce and and I had a young baby I was alone as a single mom with a young baby and having to then navigate that period of time was so unbelievably hard and you just think how on earth did I survive that and somehow my work is always an escape through whatever's going on personally or anything else because I enjoy it and it's always been like it's always been an escape for me yeah and the creative part certainly but there are yeah certain periods of those times and they're going through you know the ups and downs and then then even things like when SARS happened or you look back and think the amount of things like what earth is going to happen next Brexit it's obviously Brexit and that's just a disaster for anybody in business generally and then Covid we can't really use Covid there's any excuse now because that's that's over but the the positives from covid and all of those things was just literally had to turn on the brakes completely and utterly turn on the brakes and i actually had to restructure the whole company with my ceo then and cut back move out of the london may 1st or move out of the london offices i found this amazing building in somerset rebuilt this knowing more about no matter what the kind of future was for the brand it still have this amazing creative space to launch and be creative so all those horrible things that are going on around you really make you think about what you stand for and why you're here and there are positives to covid but that's now gone so now it's rebuilding from stopping doing any wholesale and and now we've obviously just opened a new store on sloan street which is extremely exciting So we're kind of reset now to sort of step forward again, rather than like kind of hopping around on the same spot for a moment until we're ready to grow again.

33:28All of those things that you just sort of pulled together there from the recession, divorce, having a child, Brexit, COVID. It's almost like a sort of not opposite, but when we talked about your growth, you know, America, Vogue, all this thing, you're exploding. and then these things happen and as you said just you know you're going to be celebrating 25 years of weathering the storms and and things as you said covid and these moments that you have and you said nothing was sort of like the same after the recession and and looking at it do you think that that has been a bitter pill to swallow but actually fantastic almost to going back to your roots because you mentioned there I loved it you call the women who shop with you looking at the Templi tribe and almost pinpointing who was supporting you then and where are they now and looking at the fast-pacedness and how and I know this definitely from first-hand experience you know you get swept with it because there is no other choices you're designing seasons so ahead of its time you've got to book things so ahead of its time so to stop anything is almost impossible you've got a machine that's now going and you're you're sort of in it and then it's taken these moments to almost break things for potentially yourself as a creative founder and designer to have a moment to re-look at things but very painfully it must have been painful at the same time as cathartic potentially oh really painful when you have to think about kind of restructuring and you're explaining to suppliers and things that you're going to, of course, they're going to still get paid.

35:15You still want to work with them going forward, but it will be on a kind of an extra bit on every invoice until it's all paid off. So that was great. But we had to let go of team at that point. We had to sort of close down the store at that point. And you just think, God, first of all, is this COVID going to be around forever? This is COVID, is this? Yeah, this is COVID. That was the worst. Is this going to be around forever? Nobody's buying, nobody's going out, nobody's having weddings, nobody needs a party dress nobody needs product let's face it nobody's got any money everybody's at home doing their garden and their houses and that's great we did the Romo interior range which was great at that point and we obviously continued doing all the British Airways first class and all the other licensing so licensing kind of kept us going and we turned down everything so we had a very very very small team which were amazing and now the team's expanded a little bit again but it's much more focused than what it was yeah it's taught us many lessons so i digress got distracted no no but this is it's fascinating it's it's i think sometimes people think that you just go on this you know linear trajectory no never it's like life isn't it four people and eight people and it gets to this and you have this and this and this and i was just literally speaking to an amazing sport business this weekend and you know she was flying high and then she's now things aren't working she's going to have to potentially you you know, multi, you know, hyphenate, she's going to have to do something else for bed.

36:39And I said to her, just don't look at it as a failure. You are just, you're flexing, you're flexing through this path of building your brand, you know, and it's hard for our egos sometimes because actually, you know, it's, we, we're all sort of taught, you know, this is the line of success. This is how it's all built. But potentially if we put our egos aside and we have to do what we need to do, then, and what does the company need? What does my, you know, what does this brand need? Forget me, you know, this thing exists outside of me. Just tell me more about that difficult sort of point where you're letting people go and now you're bringing people back in and that hardship for someone who's founded the business to reconcile that.

37:25Well, you feel guilt, don't you? Because you've got obviously your team and you're supporting the team and their families and they're going through kind of COVID anyway. So obviously there's, you can kind of let people go. And what was that thing when you let people go and half time and government paid? I can't even remember what that was, but you feel responsible. And then you feel responsible for your suppliers, whether it's fabric you've just bought or things that they've just made or deliveries that need paying for or something that needs doing. And I have an incredible loyalty to them because I've worked with a lot of my suppliers for the last 20 plus years.

37:58and everybody's going through a really hard time. And then you also get the kind of sense, I've not been a workaholic, but I've always driven quite hard and there's a sense of sort of, you know, failing at something and letting people down. And sometimes it would have been way easier if I could have just sort of slipped under the cover of COVID and popped out somewhere else. But I kept fighting because I'm a fighter and I'm a farm girl and I kept fighting and God, it was hard. And I was worried at the same time, am I going to be able to keep the roof above my head? I don't want to go keep my son at school.

38:30You know, I'm a single mum. So it was just really, really challenging on all fronts. I have to say it was really nice to be in the countryside for that amount of time. I can imagine. But that was a slightly worrying way to fuse by the fact that you didn't know what was going on. And I'd find myself going to London in articulated lorries to move everything back to storage, to just park everything for a moment until we figured out what to do. And then there was a period of time when you go through a restructure where you can't do anything. But I've managed to find a big, empty, derelict building to start converting into a studio space.

39:10It's like they have never, they're not being able to stop, but all things lead to good things in the end. And I think, as you were saying earlier, it's not a sense of failure doing something like that. It just leads you into a new phase and everything happens for a reason. And somehow you have to sort of trust in that. There's nothing I could have done about any of those things that we were hit with. And you have to be nimble and you have to keep changing. You have to keep evolving. And your supplies change, change, taxes change, tariffs in America. And it'll be the next issue we have to face.

39:40And you just never know what you're going to come across. I didn't, you know, no idea we had to stop selling to, we're going to have to stop selling to Russia. So all that work you put into the Russian accounts, cut that because of the war. and then you're going hell for leather and going to wholesale again in America and then you're kind of hearing, is it going to be a 20 % tax, 25 % tax for Europe? Is it 10? What is it? Are they still going to accept our goods? And you just don't know. I mean, you have to basically rely on your local market and other global markets but not anyone for an entirety, I think.

40:15An entirety, putting all your eggs in a basket. it when you say all those things you just reel those things off because you've been doing this for 25 years similarly I think I'm on my 21st year doing what I do yeah you've been amazingly successful yeah you know just got to raise you know no no one wants to back women just got to raise a few million again yeah don't worry about it yeah but come yes yeah fine and people listen they go so what how are you doing this we love obviously what we do but do we become with age and with this experience, able to understand that there's no comfy sofa we will ever sit on.

40:55Like actually, we've made the concrete chair really comfortable because we just sort of know that when we were younger, we just knew we were looking for the comfy chair. It will happen. It will happen. One point, if I just work tirelessly for the rest of my life, it will happen. But is there a point where you just get to the thing where I actually love this concrete chair. It's perfect because you realize it's never gonna that's not how these stories are it's a myth really what it is is the resilience the grit the chameleon chameleonness of ourselves the lack of ego potentially to shift change and shape change sort of do you think that that's what it is ultimately and by the way obviously not a great advert for anyone listening here who wants to build to business but you know what I actually am really happy that you hear this because if you still want to do it when you know you're going to be sitting on a concrete chair yeah I think that's great it's it's I think it's all fine if you enjoy what you're doing I mean if you're not enjoying what you're doing in a really uncomfortable chair then you're screwed really aren't you but I mean I have to say you know a percentage of my job I absolutely love and some of my job I really don't because I'm across all areas of the business and some things I find really boring some things I find difficult some things I find annoying some things I find frustrating but would I be able to do anything else well sometimes I think oh maybe no oh my it's so much easier sometimes to work for somebody else no I think you're unemployable by the way just to let you know Alice I just don't know if anyone's told you this why are you joking me I would if I if your CV came to my desk right I would be well I'd shit myself to start with I'd be like the coolest woman on the freaking planet has just applied for a job but also when I look at all your skills you are unemployable this is the this is you you're changing the world with what we see I don't I don't know if you're going to get another job a job anyway damn it see there you go I have to be happy with my uncomfortable chair but also it's like I think my recent my partner who's absolutely amazing has really taught me to slow down live in the moment and you can't control so many things so those late nights I've been awake at like three or four o 'clock in the morning you're overthinking overthinking can't sleep worrying about stuff and I've been through literally so much crap in the last few years I could write all sorts of I could write a book about it and nobody would believe half of it it's just like literally slow down and take each day as a day where you you enjoy things and you slow down you don't worry because you you're nothing you have no idea what's coming next we're incredibly lucky if we're healthy and the people around us are healthy and there are so many things to be happy about and i spent um you know probably decades you know worrying and driving and striving and doing and thinking that everything had to be done now and actually it's just so much more beneficial for everybody and everything and the company and your team and the sun and everything if you just go a little bit slower and I'm enjoying that at the moment because it's just a slightly different mindset that it took me a very long time to figure out because I was always driving and driving and driving and driving and I think that might have been my upbringing too and the sense of achievement and doing and you know if I do this I'll get there and I'll get there but actually you're not going to get anywhere any quicker if you're running at that pace it's like i'm almost like a man driving or my husband driving do you know i mean that we have to do five ten more miles we have to overtake on the ridiculous bend or whatever because do you know and actually the car that was pissing us off is just literally right behind us absolutely no gain whatsoever but it feels good right it feels like you're in control maybe that's the thing the control of trying to control the uncontrollable it's like a drug in a way because you you're so determined you're you've got such spirit strong spirit that you probably can determine quite a lot of things and so being able to do that is is amazing your decision to embrace um bricks and mortar again right just to then to focus just online i loved what you were saying about and I think it's just worth a moment the sort of allure and bubble I mean I'm a dot com I you know that's what I do online but you know it I love the physical I love love bringing a brand to life and it should these things should coexist if nothing else but for brands to become something deeper than a commodity just a vacuous sort of transaction you talked to me about sort of online the jeopardizing and the sort of the not paying to perform and struggling because what we all forget you know let's say in fashion retail you know all that's created and made sending back buying six sizes returning someone's got to take that return it log it just that cost just that cost and for those who are making unethically creating an attitude to us customers where what do you mean i have to return pay for returns what do you mean if i have to and it's just a disregard for what actually you're doing you know we've become again it's what i call a sleep at the wheel yeah dot com i mean it's a bit of a farce really if you think for example i'll give you a prime example you got an american person might live somewhere quite remote in america but she's got a gala she thinks right i'm going to get a templary dress don't know which templary dress i'm going to want so i'm going to order those three styles and i'm going to order not just an eight or a ten so i can't figure out what size i am in english and i might be one or the other so i'm going to order six dresses and i'm going to get them delivered to me in minnesota so pack it all up send it out to her minnesota she only ever has an intention of maybe buying one of those dresses because She's just going to try them on at home and she's going to ship them back.

47:05So you've got the cost of shipping it up. You've got the cost of sending it to America. You've got import duties to cover. As she returns it, you've got to pick it up, pay for duties to come back to the country. And then you've got to wait in the warehouse and then you've got to upload it back into the system and get it back on stock. By the time something like that has gone out and come back, it's probably about a month before it's loaded back into the stock. and if you think you you've got deliveries and you need to sell that delivery in a certain amount of time it's just absolutely totally and utterly painful and the amount of people we've had to blacklist because they will order lots and lots of things and then they and then they might order one or they will buy lots that take lots of things and then send them back and you hope they're not just taking photographs they're taking them back but you can't control it it's really really challenging and our things aren't cheap amazon products they're they're beautifully handcrafted um embellished beautiful dresses so you you have to somebody takes them to the home and does whatever they do to them and they're you know hopefully doesn't put a heel through them or and they send them back but maybe not doesn't pack them perfectly i mean it's just it's a minefield so that is why our sloan street store is really important because our special gowns obviously our bridle and everything will go in there and then we have um atelier uh seamstresses who will fit who will change who will alter the slip perfectly so the neckline is absolutely perfect for whatever size bust that is they will shorten things and change things and tweak things and that's the service that we want to be able to give it's not just kind of like pizza express here's your dress yeah it's it's much more about a service and a feeling and you know have you tried wearing this underneath it or what about this for support or you know maybe you can wear this dress remember without a slip it's educating people how to wear it maybe advising them on the you know accessories or things or all sorts but if you're coming to us for something special you should have a proper service and it's very difficult to do that online you know if it's knitwear and it's the simple things that's great but the bulk of our business of what we're known for is very much that artisan thing so to sort of ship it off on a in a box yeah and then then for it to fit and all body shapes as you know they're all different so yeah to bit somebody's assuming they've got the exact measurements for their exact size is also slightly you know an hour in the dark it might be that yeah and got a slightly bigger bust so they might need to go up a size but do they know that yeah without being a kind of regular customer and knowing exactly what one of our sizes work so yeah the website is is tricky yes you get the rest of the world but you know maybe i just need to make more product that's really easy fit elasticated waistbands everywhere yeah gosh but it's fascinating and i think this is the education you know people listening and understanding this as well and that is the craft that is the actual thing that you're buying into you're buying into your brain your design you you the whole thing that we've spoken about on this podcast and we're allowed to get a taste of that.