S23 Ep1: Sarah Chapman, Founder of Skinesis & Sarah Chapman London: How passion and perfectionism can prevail

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32:21So you undertook your training, as we've said, and you were working with different skincare companies, building this sort of incredible base of knowledge. So tell me how you first moved into your work as a facialist, because I heard it happened firstly by accident, which I think many companies do. But although I do think it was fate and the stars were slightly aligned, because I read that your first client was an international royalty. Is this right or is this folklore? No, that sort of is. The first client in my treatment rooms outside my flat. Right. So I was already doing treatments from my flat.

33:00From the front room. When did you start that? Did you just... So I worked with different skincare companies for a while. I then, I worked for a TV shopping channel, which launched in the UK, which you'll probably know, which was HSN. Right. So I was their in-house beauty presenter. Okay. So I'd worked with different skincare companies. I was doing bits of TV. And then from my work in the skincare companies, one of my clients who had her own skincare practice, who I used to take the products to and I used to talk to her and train her in new products, et cetera, for this brand. She moved to Australia and she said to me, could you look after some of my clients?

33:39Because I'm going to go and live in Australia for a while. And I said, I don't really do that anymore. I'm sort of doing all these other things. And anyway, she persuaded me. So I literally took on maybe three or four of her clients. She didn't know when she was going to come back from Australia, but she said, you're the only person that I trust. We used to have these great sessions. We were very like-minded and she'd been doing treatments for a long, long time. And that really was just me at home in my flat doing these guys who then told their friend who told their friend who told. And it was a very typical word of mouth.

34:12I never set out to grow a facial practice. That wasn't the intention. It happened naturally, which is quite beautiful in its own way because it's, it happened because people loved what I was doing. And then I got really into it and then it developed more and I was doing that from home until I decided that it was becoming too much to do at home and I took a room up in Draco Avenue near South Kensington and it was when I took that space and I was doing the building works because I had to repaint it and stuff nothing big but I had to tart up the space and I had Queen Rainier of Jordan as my first client and she was booked in and I used to go in every day to those builders and say you absolutely have to finish on time you have to finish on time and the place can't stink of paint exactly and we made it happen you made it happen because you can make anything happen right if you put yourself to it so we made it happen so she was the first client for me up the stairs in my little first treatment room outside of home and then it really grew from there so I had one room and then I got too busy.

35:24I was doing seven days a week, but I couldn't fit anybody else in. So I took on a second therapist and I trained her and then I got another room in the building and we took on somebody else. And then I got to four people and I managed to get three rooms in the building, which is this fabulously higgledy-piggledy building next to Daphne's. And you'd hear people clinking away the champagne at lunchtime while you were doing a facial and it was just really, really beautiful space actually. And then we reached a point where I had 250 people on the waiting list that I couldn't get in for a facial, which now to me seems crazy.

36:00This is a long time ago now because I've had the clinic in Pavilion Road is 11 years now. So this was pre that time. And I thought I've got to set up a bigger space. So I started looking. It took me a few years to find the right space because I wanted to have a clinic practice that had windows in all the treatment rooms. So you had natural light for two reasons. One is because we're dealing with skin and I want to be able to see the skin properly, not in a dark room in a basement with one magnifying lamp. And secondly, it's a hard job doing what we do. And it can be long hours. And I didn't want the people working with me to, again, not see daylight for 10 hours a day.

36:46So again, it's almost touching into that. actually it's the well-being of the people we're working with and myself I don't want to be in the dark but also what's the best for our client it's being able to see the skin so it took a long time to find that space but we did we found the clinic which we're now in in Pavilion Road which actually also when we moved to that so I had 250 people on the waiting list for treatments I think by this point I had maybe seven or eight products in the range oh right okay because I want to go back to that at the start of this? Sorry, yes, I had launched that. And the space that I found that I loved had this huge shop underneath, but I only had eight products.

37:28And we weren't allowed to put any treatments downstairs, no reception, nothing to do with the clinic, that was all upstairs. Yeah. So I looked at this sort of empty shell of a shop and thought, what am I going to do with this space so actually we built um little hubs for skin camera analysis a theory bar we could do master classes mini sort of treatments you know all of the experiential stuff which now is what everybody's doing but strangely it wasn't because I was necessarily so advanced and ahead of my time I just had to think of something to fill the shop it's always the way though it's it's these I think it's um you know everyone's like genius you're like yeah genius that's that's right but actually as you said you just need to fill the shop and so many of our stories will have that element of you know almost experimentation or the just doing something because you just had to do it and then that becoming the thing I mean you said you had eight products by this this stage Tell me about the start of Skinesis, because you've spoken about how it felt like a natural evolution.

38:36Because you're now in your premises where you've got three, four people and potentially you're using other skincare brands. Yes. It must have been started like that. So it probably, yeah, you probably weren't able to maybe find what you needed. Yeah. So I was working with different skincare brands and mixing lots of things together. So I had some really kind of brilliant cosmeceutical technical skincare, which was really delivering the results that we needed in the facials and for people's skin. But I was also buying like Santa Maria Novella rose water from Florence or mixing up essential oils from something else.

39:16because I'd gone from working with a very aromatherapy-based skincare, French aromatherapy-based skincare, to a very technical plastic surgeons, kind of cosmeceutical range with lots of retinoids and vitamin A and antioxidants. And I used to mix everything together so that when I was doing this very technical results-driven treatment, the client was also experiencing the smells and the textures and the hands-on part of what was the types of treatments that I did before. And I had a client of mine who came in one day, and I was already thinking, this idea was already sort of bubbling in my head.

39:56And she came in and she said, I had a friend to stay at the weekend, she said. And she went into the bathroom, and she was a great storyteller. She went into the bathroom, she took this big pot, she said, and it had this heavy lid. And she said, and she opened the lid as she sort of did this movement with her hands. and stuck her fingers into this big pot and lavished it on her face. And she said, I watched her and I felt so jealous because the product that you're giving me to take home, I want to hide away in the cupboard. It's smelly, it's sticky, it's not great. But I know, and I had going around my head, that I'm going to look so much better than her in 20 years' time because I had your voice in my head telling me what that product was doing for me.

40:37She said, so why can't my product that's delivering the results make me feel like her product was, which was beautiful and luxurious and unctuous and it smelled great. And she had this heavy jar and it was all lovely. And even though it's not going to do as much for her as what you've given me, I felt really envious. And I thought, why can't you have that together? Why can't you have a skincare product or a skincare range that's primarily about giving you the results. So it's almost clinically led in terms of its ingredients, its performance, its formulation. But at the same time, every time you use it, every time you put it on, every time you experience it, you get that incredible feel good factor.

41:22And that was essentially the little nugget that then sat in my head and wouldn't go away. And because it wouldn't go away, eventually I thought, I've got to try and do something with this. I didn't know where to start. I hadn't run a business. I didn't know even how you started to formulate. So I went and studied cosmetic science so that I could understand laboratory speak and understand what, you know, a machine that makes an emulsion, how does that work? What happens? How do I look at a inky list on the back of a box and really understand it? So I took the kind of the hands-on that I'd done for all those previous trainings and everything that I'd done.

42:04I then added in cosmetic science so that I could really sort of build it all out to develop something that I genuinely believed in. Some people would just have gone to the manufacturers or maybe today that's what some people do, you know, but you basically went and studied it as if you were going to literally be mixing these pots up yourself. But that is, do you feel, I want to carry on with this story, but you as a person, are you obsessed with sort of knowing it all? Like, as in like literally every ingredient, it wasn't going to be someone you go to someone and say, listen, I just want, you know, some anti-aging.

42:40I like this smell. You wanted to know every single element of it. Do you think that sort of what I call found a titus has stood you in good stead. Absolutely. And I think I never knew it before I did it. You'll sort of understand that. It's almost like once I didn't realise that I had this like obsessive attention to detail. I didn't realise that I was such a perfectionist. I didn't know that those traits were in me. I really didn't. And I think that that's something that has kind of come through as I've done the business and that absolute kind of first for knowledge. I'm very inquisitive. So tell me something, but I want to understand how or why you're telling me that or, okay, so prove it rather than, oh yeah, that sounds nice.

43:31Okay, we'll do that. And I don't think so because I'd worked with such incredible skincare brands with my clients before, my philosophy in my head was whatever I do has got to be so much better than these because otherwise, firstly, I may lose all my clients because they'll say, well, I don't want that because I'm going to go to somewhere else that does the products that you had before. And secondly, I don't want them to spend their money and not get the results that they're looking for. So it's sort of like, it was almost I felt like I wanted to protect them in some sort of way. And the only way that I could do that was to make sure that whatever I developed was going to be better than all the things that I'd been using.

44:13So then I had to understand how and why I was going to do that. So doing the cosmetic science gave me that deeper insight. So when I was dealing with chemists, I'd never took no for an answer. If they said, well, you can only have 0.04 % in, I'd say, but I know you can have more than that. And I need more than that because that clinically is going to give me the result that I need. Yes. Gosh. So I think there are obviously in many cases, people will go to a formulation lab or a contract manufacturer and do something in a much simpler way for sure. And say, I just I want to have a product that's X, Y, Z.

44:52And they may even take something that's already developed off the shelf. I did probably the complete polar opposite to that and did the most complicated journey that I could have done. and actually it took four and a half years to create the first six products. I know, I read that. I was going to say six products took four and a half years. I mean, which, you know, ultimately is probably unheard of these days. But those were your sort of brand defining products. I'm interested in those early days, sort of doing this and launching it. did you believe how did you get your confidence in because again we're talking when no one else was doing this really I think nowadays we've got a lot of skincare going on but if you think when you started no one else really was doing this you were now a I mean just in case anyone doesn't know Sarah am I right in thinking your clinics now carry out 16 ,000 facials a year yes roughly roughly that.

45:57Yeah. And a four month waiting list. So for everybody who doesn't know Sarah, this is what we're talking about here. So tell me about that confidence in launching this and sort of knowing that this was the future for you. Do you know what's so interesting is I never doubted it and I don't know why. Yeah. Because I wasn't an overly confident person. I didn't know how I was going to do it. I had this idea and it was so clear to me and I think I was so passionate about it. To me, it was just about how do I do it? It was never about can I? It was never about... Whether it was right or wrong. Yeah, it was much more about just how I've got to find the way to do it.

46:38And I think that there were many people that said to me at the time, you're mad, are you crazy? How are you going to go up against the Estee Lauders and the big brands? Because that's really all there was around at the time. There wasn't all the niche brands that we see now coming out all the time. And it's much easier to launch something nowadays as an independent. But I just had this very clear vision. So something in me, and again, I couldn't explain why, but just kept me on this path that I even had sort of friends who after a while are like, I'd have so given up two years ago. I you know your tenacity is unbelievable annoying yeah but I just I have that with my friends it's like god give it up already come on I cannot hear this anymore why why we can still do it and I think yeah I think you just you have something and you just keep going and I I worked with I think probably four different companies in the UK who I tried to create the products with.

47:44I was so clear what I wanted with the products. Some were independent chemists, some were contract manufacturers with development labs and chemists in-house. And I couldn't get the products how I wanted them. I couldn't get the level of concentration of actives in them that would give me the performance. I couldn't get the products so that they were stable enough with those actives in them. I didn't want to use parabens, which was a new consideration at the time. So there wasn't a lot available without parabens. So parabens are a type of preservative. I didn't want synthetic fragrance. I wanted to use essential oils because of my aromatherapy background.

48:24But I wanted to create those in a very unique way. So they smelled more like a fragrance rather than like a bathing essential oil brand. But there were so many things that happened in the formulations because they were so concentrated in terms of the active ingredients, plus all of these other elements that sometimes a sample would arrive and it would smell literally like sulfur, like rotten eggs. Another time it would arrive and the mold would be growing and it'd be broken and it had only been made three days before and transported. It was so difficult to get the formulations right. So I tried over, I think, the course of about four years.

49:00Well, it must have been three and a half in the UK. And then I went to the US. I just thought I got introduced to somebody. I had a conversation with him. he was so on my wavelength as a chemist I got on a plane to San Francisco and he said if you prove you're serious get on a plane come over here I'll give you my two best chemists for a week and I went in the lab with them and we pretty much hammered out the first six products wow we'd already done a lot of work on them yeah yeah yeah but yeah it's interesting that because when you were telling me that story I think about so many times through my career that I've I've known what I've wanted and then you hire the experts you know so you go there because of course they'll know because you don't know but you know what you want and I've been so surprised how many times that just hasn't worked I mean really I mean I I would say almost nearly nearly 80 % of the time it hasn't worked what I've actually had to do is almost go back to the drawing board and just basically do it myself, do it with my team.

50:10And even though we didn't have the expertise in it, we just had to take longer. It was much harder as a journey, but ultimately it was the thing that you wanted at the end. It was actually, and in that way, the USP was already inbuilt because it was just not off the shelf. And I think we tend to look for the silver bullet. We tend to look for, Or, you know, of course someone else must have done this or they must be the experts. But actually sometimes getting the marigolds on and actually literally doing it yourself with no, you did have knowledge, by the way. I'm not saying you didn't have knowledge, but you know, that sort of, you tend to not start there because you go, of course, other people have got this.

50:53You know, of course. But actually so often, 80 % of the time that I've started new projects, we've just ended up going back to doing it and learning it and teaching ourselves it. I think because you're the one who's got that inbuilt vision and passion and you can try to kind of get that with somebody else. But there's something that's built in you, I think, if you do this entrepreneurial journey that is hard to and you've got to keep that route almost driving everything, haven't you? Yes. And yes, you can have people who've got their expertise because you need to. but in those early days you kind of have to keep going back and you have to stay so strong and true to what you believe in you know there were lots of things during the the kind of development of the product so overnight facial we mentioned earlier on yes so overnight facial was that one of your first products was one of the first six yes so there i was i was there you were right there you were right there and it's it's actually been the number one seller for 16 years it is the number one product that brings people into the brand that people absolutely fall in love with and it almost encompasses everything that the brand is about.

52:06When I was developing that product, I wanted to call it Overnight Facial and everybody told me not to call it Overnight Facial. Why? Everybody told me not to because they said it's, nobody will understand what it is. It needs to stay. It's a night cream or a night serum. Oh, okay. Nobody will understand it. so in the end I thought no I like the name I'm going to do it yeah so I think it's I think you've got to stay sort of true to yourself and you've got to stick to what it is that you believe in everybody told me my packaging should be white because scientific skincare is white yes I didn't want it to be white I had this taupe vision in my head and so I did it you have a jumper and a piece of ribbon I did I did you had a jumper and a piece of ribbon that inspired you and no one no one said that you should have this colour and until you found an ability to basically launch with this colour you weren't launching.

53:03Yeah I had to get the colour and unfortunately it's not a Pantone colour reference so it's really difficult to match it and to get the right colour. So yes I think it's um I think you you have to be brave and I don't know where that bravery came from. I don't think I had a big sort of ego. It wasn't an ego driving it. It wasn't being sort of believing that I knew better than anyone else. It was purely a vision. And it was a vision that was so strong. I knew how it was going to look from way in the beginning. And it was just getting those formulas right, getting those products right, and then trying to get everything else into place with it as well.

53:45So I think it's, you've got to just keep on that path yourself, I think. And I had so many people that kind of said, I really would totally have given up. I really wouldn't have stayed through that journey. And when we did finally launch, my boyfriend's friends at the time didn't know anything about what I was doing. And they all turned around. And so I went from sort of being this just kind of, I was in beauty and I was always out with friends and having a great life and young and drink too much and whatever else and having it. And then suddenly I launched this thing and all of them were like, what on earth is going on?

54:22And I think one of them turned me like the silent assassin or something. It's like, where did this person come from? But I think you just, you literally put yourself into a sort of tunnel and you just keep going. And I think if I ever doubted what the concept was, I probably would have stopped at some point. Yeah, well, it's that belief, isn't it? I mean, would you say, because you've mentioned that sort of, you know, unless you got the colour right, you weren't launching, it was just that, I wanted a milligram more of this and a mil more of this and all those sorts of things. You know, we often talk about perfectionism as being a bad thing.

55:01You know, like if you want to go and look at some, you know, Instagrammy, Pinterest-y quotes, you know, it's better to get done than perfect and you know all these sorts of things but what's your view on perfectionism in in terms of like has that been something that you've been comfortable with I think so because I think perfectionism even if you're not quite there at it being perfect but you're striving for it you're going to have something pretty damn good so you might not quite get to perfection but you're going to get to something that's really close. And actually, if you're doing something, you know, I'm doing scientific skincare, it's got to be with that attention to detail.

55:43It has to be of a certain level in order to be a product that will perform for people, but also that's safe for people to use. There are so many different elements to it. I think, you know, it's interesting, isn't it? Because I always say, you know, you should celebrate all your failures and don't worry about being a perfectionist and things can go wrong and it doesn't matter if it's not quite right. I can't live that way. That doesn't, that's not in me. It's got to be right and it's got to be absolutely perfect. And that just is natural to me. So it doesn't bother me that I feel like that about things.

56:17I'm that really, really annoying person that sees every spelling mistake and I don't try to. And my team are always like, oh my God, four of us have read it and then you get it and now look. And I can't, it's just there. So I say embrace it and make it useful because ultimately, you know, it's not a bad thing to be a perfectionist if it's, if it suits you to be one. If it's in your DNA, isn't it? You're now many, many years on from launching those six products and you've got a beautiful collection of products and each and every one is created, obviously with this clinical side, but your customer experience, your award winning, You've got cult status.

56:57You happen to be London's one, you know, sought after facialists. And again, for those who don't know, Victoria Beckham, Duchess of Sussex, to name a few. But you've seen the industry evolve in these 25 years. And this sort of technical, high-tech treatments and sort of trending ingredients, you know, it gives me palpitations, I have to say, because, I mean, and you can always say it's not just skincare, is it? It's our diet as well, you know, or the next vitamin that we should be taking. Does that ever feel as though innovation can be sort of a fine line to walk? And sort of how do you navigate that?

57:36Because I don't know, like, I just, you know, I think social media is fantastic when you build a business. And you're building yourself, aren't you, as a person. But I can't keep up as a woman who wants to be in the world, you know, have the most healthy body, healthy face. I'm a skincare fanatic, all these sorts of things. But I literally can't go a week without feeling like I'm failing because I'm not taking this or I haven't put that on. Or is that skincare brand duping me? Because actually it's all made, I don't know where, but I really thought I knew what I was talking about. How are you navigating with your brand, this sort of era that we're living in?

58:18Yeah, because that's such a shame because that's something that should be kind of joyous and should be enjoyable and making you feel good is actually making you feel insecure, negative, that you don't feel like you know what's going on and unsure. It's like I would always say, you know, we would never say to somebody, oh, don't use that product. It's not very good because you've suddenly made somebody's whole kind of lifestyle choice insulted and that's essentially insulting them. So it's about finding ways to kind of talk to people about things. But it's interesting that you feel like that. It is such a complicated space.

58:56There is so much noise. There is too much available on social media and there's a lot of untruth on social media and we all know that across every element. And there's loads of stuff about social media that's brilliant. but how does somebody dissect what is right and what's not if they don't have superior skincare knowledge for example or superior supplements and health knowledge we all have to sort of take a bit of what we're listening to and we have to try to bring it in some sort of way that makes sense for us I think that for me what I'm seeing quite a lot and what a lot of people are saying that I talk to is the era of the expert is what is kind of happening.

59:42So if you look at something, whether it's me with my skincare or a chef who's super experienced or whatever it is, look for something that's coming from somebody with expertise because there's been a lot over the past years where it's people who've got maybe a name or an interest or whatever it is, but not necessarily the true expertise behind something. And somebody was saying to me the other day, heritage brands, brands that have been around for a long time, are the brands that now people are really trusting. Because you've actually sort of stayed the test of time, which means your product is working, it's doing something for people, otherwise it wouldn't still be here.

1:00:23But also there's learnings along that sort of journey, if you like, in terms of what you're delivering. And if there's an expertise behind it, no matter what field it is, you know that you've got something that's got much more credibility. Therefore, trust in that and listen to that more so than maybe something else. But I think for you in terms of skincare is probably what a lot of people feel. It's like, am I a peptide, a retinoid, an antioxidant, a stem cell, a vitamin C? What am I supposed to be putting on? This is my age. Does it matter my age? This is my skin. Is it about my skin? We always try to talk to people about try to set yourself a good routine that's something that you do all the time.

1:01:07Something that you find a cleanser that suits your skin and kind of respects your skin and doesn't strip it. You find the thing that's right for you. You use a serum and that chops and changes depending on what's going on with your skin. You've just come back from summer. It's a bit blocked. It's going to need something different to the middle of winter where it's really dehydrated and it's desperately thirsty for some hyaluronic acid and hydration and you've got your moisturizer and protection and then you play around that so I kind of think of those elements it's your underwear every day you've got your underwear on but it could be a flimsy dress in the summer or it could be a cashmere right outfit with a raincoat in in the winter so you've always got your core which is going to hold you together and as your absolutes and then play around with other things that interest you, that you feel are right for your skin, but then you're never coming away from the fundamentals of keeping your skin healthy.

1:02:05I love that. And I think that's the key way to sort of play it. I love that. I mean, the beauty industry as a whole has just seen this huge growth, as you just were saying, in terms of different things coming, different people, different brands coming in. And I was a little surprised to read that it makes up over 1 % of the entire country's GDP. It contributes more than sports and recreation and employs more people than publishing and broadcasting industries, which is nuts. I saw that the British Beauty Council published a piece last month announcing that the government has committed to introducing increased legislation in the aesthetics industry.

1:02:45So injectables, doctors, it's become a bit of a Wild West, you know, in terms of the whole injectable space. And I think people are really concerned about that. the British Beauty Council, I work with the British Beauty Council. They're an incredible body that are really campaigning government to make safety a priority, particularly in this area, but across a lot of the beauty industry. And also highlighting those things that you were just saying about how important the beauty industry is to the economy. It's massively important here. And I think sometimes that isn't realised because beauty is a beautifully fluffy, lovely, wonderful industry, but actually it's a serious place that is doing serious treatments and actually delivering great revenue to the economy.

1:03:28So there's so much more to it than the fluff and beauty that people can see on the surface level. The aesthetics industry has absolutely boomed. And I think particularly since COVID, I mean, injectables, what people are asking for, how many aesthetics clinics are opening. I mean, it's a completely different landscape to pre-COVID times. Why do you think that is, Sarah? I think it was everybody coming out of that time and just suddenly thinking about themselves and what they were going to do and how they're going to look and their health and their well-being and prioritising themselves in no matter which way.

1:04:08Then I think there is so much more available to see on social media, TV programs. Wherever you're looking, you can see somebody who's having some injections done or some surgery done. It's like an interesting thing for people. So, I think it's normalized it. If you talk to somebody years ago about fillers and Botox, it was a much more under the radar. If somebody had it, they didn't really tell people that they had it. It was much more a hidden away secret to looking a little bit better. Now, it's a loud and proud about the fact that you've had your Botox, etc. And people are starting it so much younger.

1:04:46I was going to say that's the thing that's just shocking. I mean, you must have found this incredible, that how young people are doing these treatments or having these changes, and that they're allowed to have them. Yes. Is this what they're looking to do, trying to put regulation in for age? I think, you know, people in their 20s are doing a lot in terms of injectables, so it's starting much younger. And it's a certain look that people are trying to achieve quite a lot now. I think a lot of the campaigning and the regulation is to try and make sure that if people are going and having these sorts of treatments, that they're done by people who are properly trained, using the right products, and it's regulated.

1:05:32Because people can buy the substances online. You don't know what's in it. You don't know what they're injecting into somebody's face. And there have been some terrible stories where people have had very bad situations from having injections where it probably wasn't what it was supposed to be. So I think really the whole campaigning as this part of the industry is booming is about trying to get safety into the place by putting in the regulations. Lots of people listening could be thinking about starting their business or have started a business or know someone. When I speak to you, it's this sort of, I love what you said, these heritage brands, you know, brands with substance, brands with roots, brands that have stood the test of time.

1:06:16As you said, you wouldn't be here if it wasn't working. Do you think that that's something that you have brought into your brand? I mean, apart from, or do you think it's the product? What do you think is the success of your brand? Is it that you know what you're talking about? You are the expert and you've just built off that because a lot of people right now will be looking because we are in this sort of fast fix sort of position. You know, we can start up a business really, really quickly if we want to. You can get onto Instagram. You can get out there. You can claim what you want to maybe claim.

1:06:56But ultimately, the hardcoreness of what you want to do, you know, be here for the next 20 years. there's some key fundamental things what do you think those have been for you would you say perfectionism was one of them sort of but I'd say it's more about honesty and integrity like I can't tell you how many times people say to me I will always buy something of yours because I trust you so I think building trust through not telling the truth never overstating something, being just very clear and honest about your advice, direction, whatever it is, so that you over time build that trust with people.

1:07:38People always kind of say, you know, we know if we come to you that whatever you do is safe. We trust it, whether it is coming to see a doctor in your clinic or whether it is a product that we're going to buy from you. We trust that it's well thought through and we feel safe with it. So I think you can't make that happen overnight. That sort of happens over time. And I'm very much of the belief that you're always honest. You have integrity in everything that you do. And those are really core values to me. So I suppose they come through in everything that we do. And it helps that you're still there, right?

1:08:14Yeah. Yeah. And I'm still there and I'm still very involved. So it's still very much the same, I guess, as it was right in the early days. And people know that and they can feel that. And sometimes clients will say to me, you know, when I take my bottle of product and I put it on, they say, I can almost feel you in the bottle. Wow. The detail of everything in it, it's just you. So I think there is such a strong connection to who I am and what I'm about in the product, because there is so much care and attention taken to developing those, that that makes a difference. And I think over time, yeah, it's really about that consistency always, then suddenly develops the trust and the belief in the brand.

1:08:57The little steps, maybe. Yeah. The little steps of all those trust elements that we don't sort of realise, you know, that when we share something maybe on Instagram and we have that packaging with that extra piece of copy at the back and you do sign up to that standard or you do do this and you think that these are all small drops. But ultimately, I mean, you're the example here. it all adds up to something very big because it adds up to basically the word trust and trust can't be bought. Trust has to be earned. Absolutely. And I think that is what, if anyone's listening and you're thinking about this, go the hard miles.

1:09:37I mean, go slower than faster. You said that you're the... I'm the sort of slow coach or slow tortoise. And we're just sort of going along, doing it how we do it. We'll get there. We're not coming and suddenly we're huge and loud and everything's happening. But we're getting there, but in our own way, without pressure. You know, we've never had any investment in the business. It's very much kind of controlled. And it's about really doing everything with that, focus on doing it properly and that real sort of integrity in everything, whether it's a treatment, whether it's talking to a client, whether it's developing a product.

1:10:17Did you know that Royal Mail have refreshed their small business hub on RoyalMail.com? The small business hub contains relevant product information, insight, articles, tips, tricks, and more with small businesses like you in mind. You may even see me pop up there from time to time. Why not take a look and remember to keep popping back as it's regularly updated. You can find the small business hub at royalmail.com forward slash small business hub.

1:10:49I'd love to know what your family looks like and how blending your family and being a very busy woman who didn't take many days off for summer. How does that fare? Well, I don't have children, so that makes it a little bit easier. But I have two dogs who are like children. Yes. And I have a very close relationship with my parents so I spend a lot of time with them and then my partner who I've been with for I don't know 20 something years so my life is very much priority mostly most of the time is work work is the kind of all because but it always has been so for me that's normal and sort of dogs and friends and life and parents really yeah and do you find that when And what's your point of view?

1:11:35Because I often have a conversation about not just work life. I mean, I'm just very not bored of that subject. I'm past the sort of work life. And anyone listening to this podcast over the last five years knows my points of view on that. But what's your point of view in saying, you know, work is my thing. You know, this is what I do. I feel like it's, you know, this is your world. it I feel exactly the same what I do is my world it's my 360 and so you know you've got your name on a bottle and I've got my name on a website you know so it really is us what's your point of view when people sort of potentially over the years have questioned that yes I don't know it's interesting isn't it because I you must have had people yeah yeah um it is it's it is I suppose you my passion and it is kind of what I do and I don't really know it any other way.

1:12:30I started working for myself 25 years ago or something so I don't really know what life would be like if it wasn't like that. I can't imagine what I would do if I didn't have the business. I don't know what I would do with the hours in the day but I also don't know where I would get that stimulation and reward. And I also have the most privileged job in that I treat people for facials. I meet the most amazing people from around the world. I wouldn't meet them if I just stayed in my local space with my great friends because they wouldn't be tapping into this network of people. So I learn and I absorb and I grow every day by naturally being with these kind of people.

1:13:13So I think that, you know my work feeds me in so many ways and I put a lot into my work but that's a beautiful cycle of of life and I can't imagine it really any other way and I think you know everybody is different aren't they so for some people that wouldn't be their passion it would be something else or or they wouldn't find the space within the time that we all have to have a business like this because they've got other things that they would prefer to prioritize and I think that's the beauty of the world. Everything is different and everybody's different. And that's what makes variety and conversation and everything around us happen.

1:13:51Amen. A women. Yeah. Brilliant. Love it. Absolutely love it. We're coming towards the end of this podcast. And I end all of my interviews with the analogy that this is like being on a roller coaster. And it's, isn't it unbelievable, but it is full on at times. What would you say has been one of your biggest lows, Sarah, whilst you've been on this journey? Hey, it's interesting, isn't it? Lows, because you have them all the time, don't you? You have this, as you absolutely say, a roller coaster. And you can have everything suddenly seems to be going really well and boom, it's back down again. And it's back down again.

1:14:32And there's this constant up, down, up, down, up, down. I think that probably, and it's probably the same for a lot of people with a business, the time of COVID was a big low. it was very hard to go through COVID where suddenly everything was taken away. My clinic was shut for 11 months in total, which is nearly a year. There's a huge amount of time. I've got a team of 32 in the clinic. My biggest priority was making sure at the beginning that they were all okay because lots of them are young girls that live on their own. They didn't have somebody with them. How were we going to manage through that?

1:15:10What were we going to do? We set up daily sort of training classes, you know, but none of us knew obviously how long it was going to go on for. Not only was it sort of the challenge of managing all of that, but obviously financially, it was a difficult time. Luckily, because I've always been a squirreller and a saver in the business, I've never been a person that takes from the business. There was plenty of money. I never had to have a moment where I thought we're not going to survive because we just, but it meant that we used a lot of the savings, which is a shame because they would have gone towards clinic number two or something else that we wanted to do.

1:15:47But I didn't have that really horrible feeling that a lot of people had in terms of that. Would we survive? Yeah. So I think that probably that period of time was difficult. And also because so much of what we do is connection with people. Yes. And there was no connection with people. Yeah, I know. I wasn't doing any facials. I wasn't seeing anybody. That for so many people was difficult, wasn't it? Did your online sales so boom? Online sales really boomed at the beginning and then it all plateaued as it sort of went on and on, I think as with most people. And that was obviously a great advantage.

1:16:20So everybody in the product business, we were all just working at home. So we were all busy every day. We were doing the same. We were just doing it in a different sort of way. It was really the clinic where you couldn't continue working in the same capacity because of the nature of the business. So it did mean that, yeah, we picked up certainly in some of our sort of sales and the business through all the online activity with the product side, which was great. And conversely, with amazing skin, you're at the top of the roller coaster, sun on your face, but with the correct SPF on, what would you say has been the greatest high?

1:16:55I'd say there's probably been loads of those. I mean, if I think about literally the first time I saw the product on the shelf in Space NK, that was such a huge moment. And I stood in the shop. I was with a friend of mine, I think. And I stood in the shop and I watched and somebody bought one. I mean, that after four and a half years of creating the product, Space NK being my favorite beauty shop and such an iconic place and a place to launch. That was an incredible moment. But there's been lots. There's also, I think of times where, you mentioned earlier about, you know, treating the types of people that I treat.

1:17:35So I treated Meghan before the royal wedding, but also a lot of other people. And I watched that wedding and I watched people walking into the church and it was like a roll call of my clients that I'd seen. You know, and I was sitting with my mum and dad and the sort of proud moments of, well, did you see the, yes, I did them on Tuesday. Did you, yes, yes, yes, yes. You know, because you can say it at home with your mum and dad, but you can't say it anywhere else because I don't talk about the people that I treat. That was an incredible moment. Maybe a designer, a fashion designer would be like, that's my skirt, that's my coat.

1:18:08But you're literally looking at the glow. That's my skin. That, that little cheek here, I did that. Or, you know, look at the dewy glow. Yes, that's me again. Yep. Yeah. How funny that you pick out the skin, the skin walking up the aisle. I'm like, doesn't everything look great today? Sure does. Yeah. That is amazing. So lots of moments like that all the way through. Absolutely. How incredible. So there's a lot of highs. And you've got to have the highs they pick you up from the lows. You know, as you know, sometimes there's challenging times where you just not got the right people around you or something happens.

1:18:45You know, we were launching a new product last year, earlier this year, new vitamin C serum. We had it all lined up. We had a vitamin C serum, a vitamin A serum. Space and K were doing a big launch for us. For once, we'd done everything well in advance. We were all feeling really good. We kind of all went to Christmas going, ha, ha, ha, we've got it. We've done it this time. Look how we progress now. Look at us. Yeah, we got into the early part of the year and the truck that was bringing all of the stock, the vitamin C stocking, got stolen. All the stock got stolen at gunpoint. So the truck got stopped.

1:19:22The guy was held up at gunpoint. They took all of the serums. What do you do, Sarah, in these times? Exactly. I've never heard of stealing skincare. I think it's actually becoming a thing. I'm sorry to say. Oh my goodness. So it was so desirable, we never got it. That could have been your ad campaign. Yeah. So good it's held up at gunpoint. Yeah. So once we sorted the driver and everything else that was going on, we obviously had to speak to Space NK about the fact that we didn't have the stock. And then we had to go into a whole cycle of reordering, packaging, replanning, etc. So that was a pretty bad moment this year, I think.

1:20:06Yeah, I can imagine. Not one that you can ever predict. I always think it's like a soap opera. Yeah. Like EastEnders. Do you know what I'm saying? Running your own business is like EastEnders. You just don't know what the dun-dun-dun is going to be. And people don't believe the stories. They believe them, but they don't. They're just like, what? What? But you've got to find ways to pick yourself away from that. And I guess I'm quite a problem solver. And I think you have to be and you become one when you have a business. You'll know that too. Yes, you do. Something happens and actually you don't dwell on that.

1:20:35You figure out what's the way to move it forward and to solve the problem. I know so many, Sarah, will be really inspired listening to this podcast. And thank you so much for just sharing and just allowing us to hear your journey. It's that stage of the podcast where I'm going to ask you to read a letter to your younger self that you've prepared before. It's my greatest moment to hear these letters and I'm really looking forward to hearing yours. Oh, thank you. So it's an interesting thing to do to write a letter to your younger self. And I have listened to quite a few of yours. So I hope that this one doesn't disappoint and is interesting.

1:21:13It touches into quite a lot of the things that we've talked about today. So I'll start. Thank you. So, dear Sarah, the life ahead of you is bigger and more beautiful than you can imagine. I see you now, a quiet, shy little girl, often nervous, always observing, and more comfortable listening than speaking. What you don't yet realise is that this gentle observation, this way of watching the world, will one day become your greatest gift. In those moments of standing back and noticing everything, you are learning and absorbing, and that sensitivity, that awareness of detail, will one day shape the way you understand people, skin, and beauty, and will form the foundation of everything you do.

1:21:57Then come your teenage years, where shyness turns to rebellion. You cover yourself in makeup, layering it on like armor. You don't yet know that your fascination with textures, colors and transformation is not about hiding, it's the beginning of discovering. That curiosity is the spark that will set you on your path. That interest with transformation is more than you know. It's the start of a lifelong journey. Makeup leads to hairdressing, then to aromatherapy and massage, and then to healing therapies and the science of skin. Each skill mastered, each late nighter study, each qualification earned is preparing you for something larger.

1:22:37When you discover cosmetic science, everything will come together. Your curiosity, your hands, your mind. In each step, each training course, you are building not just skills, but a craft, a way to help people feel seen, understood and cared for. When skincare enters your world, everything begins to shift. You start peeling back the layers, not just of makeup, but of yourself. You realise beauty is not about covering up, but about revealing what lies beneath. This awakening will guide you towards the science of skin, the healing touch and the power of innovation. There will be those who doubt you.

1:23:15they will not understand your vision of combining science with artistry, technology with touch, but hold on to it. That vision, unyielding, brave and ahead of its time, will become your north star. You'll prove that skin can be approached differently, that beauty can be both intelligent and deeply human. In doing so, you will become a pioneer, paving the way for others who now follow where you once led alone. There will be times when you feel invisible, when it seems as though no one notices your dedication. Hold on. The work you're doing now is laying the foundation for a future where you'll be sought after by clients around the world, where your touch and knowledge will be transformative.

1:23:56Remember that the magic lies in marrying science with artistry, empathy with innovation. Your hands will heal, your formulas will empower, and your vision will change how people feel about their skin and themselves. One day, you'll see your name on products that reach far beyond a treatment room. The path ahead won't always be straightforward. There'll be challenges, setbacks and moments of self-doubt, but each of those will sharpen your vision and give you the resilience you need to build something extraordinary. Trust that every skill you're developing, every hour spent perfecting your hands-on techniques will one day come together in ways you cannot yet imagine.

1:24:35Your hard-working parents will shape you more than you know. Their resilience, their ethic of dedication, their belief in you will remind you that always that nothing worth building comes without effort. Their encouragement will give you the courage to keep going when the path feels lonely. Remember, throw out everything to stay true to the values you held from the very beginning. Honesty, integrity and above all kindness, these will become your foundation. These will be the reason people trust you, why you will not only treat skin but also touch lives and what a life it will be. You will sit face to face and touch some of the most famous people in the world, royalty, global leaders, icons of film and music.

1:25:20They will seek you not just for your skill, but because they feel your warmth, your sincerity and your care. Through your business, you will welcome people from every corner of the globe and their stories will enrich yours. You will discover that the true privilege of success is not recognition, but connection. from the shy little girl to the rebellious teen to the woman shaping a global brand you will always carry the same heart curious compassionate and determined hold fast to your vision study harder than anyone else and never stop listening because the future ahead of you is greater than you dare to dream and to the next generation know that the doubts of others do not define you your vision your values and your belief in yourself are the keys to building something extraordinary work with integrity lead with kindness and never be afraid to pioneer a new way forward if i could do it then so can you

1:26:20oh i just learned something so oh i just when you talk about that the riches is you know the connections that you have built and who you have been so privileged to have met. You shine a light, Sarah, on the undercurrent of why we run our businesses, not for what everyone just sort of sees face value, but for the depths of what our businesses give us. And I'm so, so happy that you have your company. Thank you. I'm so happy that it gives you so what you deserve and gives you all this richness and all this beauty and colour and everything. I can see it in your eyes and I can hear it in your words.

1:27:07Thank you. Thank God for women like you paving the way for us. You know, you're a brand to be beholden. You have done the time. You know, you are there because you deserve to be there and it helps everybody starting a business to look at brands like yourself to look at you sarah and just say right this is how i'm going to do it i'm going to be authentic i'm going to connect it's going to be real you know my heart i love that what you said your same heart same heart traveling all of these years in your brand and it's just been a beautiful time to connect with you thank you thank you so much thank you Thank you for joining me today.

1:27:51If you've enjoyed this episode, can I ask that you share it with a friend and like, subscribe and review it too, so that together we can inspire even more people to follow their dreams to build a life they love.