S23 Ep2: A RUDE awakening — why creativity should rule the world: Abi & Rupert Meats, Founders of RUDE

34:36No, we have breakdowns at different times. Well done, you diarised them. Yeah, when Abby couldn't come in the shop, I was quite capable to be in there. But it is like tag team. But I think at that time I said to Rue, you need to go on a creative retreat. And so I sent Rupert and our best pal, Harry, off to see our friend Natalie, who runs an amazing art retreat called The Mill in South France. And Rui went and got his creative chops back and came back and went, right, you need to go. So I think there's always, you know, our work does evolve all the time, especially, you know, doing a mural is different to doing an animation or an advert.

35:17Yes. So you have to do things big scale and think about blocks of colour and how you're going to apply it and how you're going to transform an old wall into this beautiful thing. So your portfolio just does evolve because of the types of work that you're doing. I was going to say, because I was looking at social media, and I mean, it's not for anyone afraid of heights, is it, your murals? No. Because you're literally on the top of towers and scaffolding, looking down at the world below. And it might be just, it must be quite a moment where you know that your work is creating such an enduring mark on the landscape.

35:52And there's lots of messaging in your work in general, but especially in your murals, you're literally helping define almost the identity and soul of a place. Do you feel a weight of responsibility to get it just right? Because it's going to almost, isn't it, rub off, I suppose, on the community and the energy the community has for years. How do you land on it? Well, those big murals, to be fair, don't happen that often. I think the one that we worked on recently up in Wood Green in North London had been commissioned sort of 10 years before. And we went and did a repaint of it, which is amazing because it just means that they love it and they want to keep it there.

36:34Yeah. For any paint sort of lovers, like masonry paint only lasts sort of seven to eight years. So after 10 years, you do have to... Yes, refurb it. Yeah. But it was a mix of, there's sort of two messages. One is happy together and one... From the ground up. Yeah, from the ground up because it's a co-working space and it's about small businesses growing, which is quite nice for us to be writing that message. But yeah, it's amazing doing those sort of murals. In fact, we'd love to do more of those. It's so nice to be up really high and just listening to podcasts and painting. I mean, painting is so mindful, as we all know.

37:16And just to spend a few weeks doing that, I even got my mum up because she has Alzheimer's. And the one thing that she loves to do is to paint. So she was like painting with her. So she was just loving it. Like she got my dungarees on. She was like getting paint in her hair. And then at the end of the day, she's like, come on, let's go for a pint. And I was like, oh, God, this is like my mum. It's so nice. Oh, I'm so happy. And also painting next to each other with anyone. It's like driving in the car. You can have fantastic conversations without looking at each other. Yes. So often they're really good places for getting some stuff out.

37:55So we have loads of conversations, Rue and I do, when we're, you know, quite difficult conversations when we're painting because you just have the freedom to think about these things. I wanted to now come on to kids because I spoke recently, we mentioned already Patrick from Bob and Roberta Smith and I was in he was on this podcast and we were in conversation about such important subjects and it has really stuck with me because this is a subject as I mentioned to you very dear to my heart that creativity isn't a nice to have it's a need to have especially for our children and our young people and I know it's a subject that you are incredibly passionate about.

38:39And it's one that has led you to create the new book, Create, Unleash Your Creative Superpowers. And it's completely centred around kids. I know it's been basically in your mind coming to fruition for what, 15 years? So it's a true labour of love. Can you tell me more about this book? Sure. So when my kids went to school, probably uh like two i don't know 2012 13 something like that um i realized that there was no art i was i was devastated i was like oh guys when do you do the art like is it like once a day they were like oh we do it once a month and it's for one hour and we get and we basically make them build a castle out of bog rolls and i'm like oh my god so it was literally imagine like it was like Joan of Art with a flat white stormed into the head teacher's office I was like what the and she was like well you could do the art club if you want and I was like yes I will do the art club thank you so you left going no no that wasn't a plan because I have no time whatsoever and how I just committed to an art club yes I was like yes I will do the after school art club um so I started doing it they were like oh we don't have any materials but we can pay you 30 pounds or something so I was like okay this is fine so when I started doing it there was like three kids and they just wanted to paint all over their face and I was like this is not it so I decided to make it about different creative industry art disciplines so one week I would go in and I talk about architecture the next week I would go and I'd explain what printmaking is or theatre or performance arts and then I would write them a brief based around that subject so I'd be like I'd explain what something was and then I'd be like right now we're going to do a quick brief so for instance I would say we're going to do a catwalk show and you've got 40 minutes to prepare it we'd like move all the tables in the classroom into a big runway and then there was this one boy called Holden who was amazing and it was first time I saw him really jump into action and he dressed everyone and everyone walked the catwalk and everyone was screaming and it was amazing and each week a light bulb would go on for one of the kids and I just thought this is what we need to do is to stop not stop teaching arts as in messy play of course that's incredibly important but we can also teach creativity just by thinking these are very simple things that we can do that require no iPads, no technology, no resources.

41:18They're literally, we need to teach kids to come up with their own ideas. And so that's really where the book was born. And I know Rob and you talked about the EBAC system and the non-compulsory arts that was brought in in 2010. And it has just obviously massively declined. And we see a huge pipeline blockage in schools um it's something like 60 or 70 percent I keep adding on a 10 percent every time I say it so that might not be the real fact but no I think it is but it's huge the decline in uptake of the art subjects and obviously we see the mental health impacts and all of these things and so I was like right I'm gonna get this into a book so we nearly got it published with a different publisher and then we got ghosted and then I just stuck it on the drop box and then Rishi Sunak said all kids should do maths till you're 18 and I was like oh my god and literally just tipped the table up in front of me and I was like right this is the moment I need to get that back off the drop box and put some proper time into this.

42:24To those of you who might not have listened to the podcast with Patrick from Rob and Roberta I ask you to because this is a beautifully dovetails with this podcast which is we were talking about stem in our education system science technology engineering and mathematics and he said it should we should be teaching steam 100 just add the a everyone just add the a because i think that for whatever reason creativity is now seen as this sort of standalone thing that's not part of our everyday lives or critical thinking or social skills or building, I don't know, confidence and things that Rob Bidolph and Patrick actively encourage in our children.

43:09And we're seeing this mental health crisis where the research supports all of what you're saying, all of what you're saying, because creativity is now no longer there. It's been downgraded. And what this impact is going to have on our younger generations or their careers or their confidence it's a ripple effect isn't it we're sort of it's only in this podcast actually I'm thinking about that my entire schooling was the best bits of it for me were the creative size creative design and technology yeah art I had a teacher that allowed me to build one sculpture for the whole of my a-level it was called Tom Dick and Harry and it was these three men combined in clay allowed me to work on it for two years and I think about my creative design technology building the first claim to fame recycling bin and winning young engineer of the year with this but I think about these teachers that I had and I think about how I would go in at weekends and they would open up the school for me so that I could just be in the classroom and everything.

44:17That was the whole making of me. And now when you say the facts that your kid was going to do art once a month, this is abusive. It's appalling. It is abusive. And I just think that the arts... Sorry, Rue, go on. I was just thinking more than anything, it's, you know, The people in charge, the politicians, want a world without creativity. And when you think of that world without creativity, it's just you forget that all the amazing things that we have to do with the arts, you know, that are happening in front of us, from Netflix to going to a gallery, going to your local coffee shop, or whatever it is, has been born from someone that, like us, knew that was their path to creating amazing creative businesses.

45:21And if you strip that out, I'm sure people will eventually find their way, but we should be encouraging it from an early age because not everyone is good at maths and not everyone is good at STEM subjects. I think also like kids are not told where a podcast comes from or where their shoes come from or where, you know, everything that we do apart from eating is art. It's play. It's art. But we're not, our kids are not veered in that direction because the arts is still perceived as fine art, for instance. But the arts are all the things that we consume all the time. And even Mo Godat the other day was saying, you know, with the onslaught of AI, etc., the things that are going to be the best things to be in the industry is the creative industries.

46:11Because everyone's going to have more downtime if it goes, you know, according to the way that it looks like it's going to go. Everything will be more automated. We'll have more time to do pleasurable things, but also things that really make you stop and think. and I thought that recently with that programme Adolescent that Stephen Graham did and just the fact that that is a fantastic example of a piece of art that makes everyone think yet people don't call it a piece of art, they call it a film. I was in a Wetherspoons garden in Brighton and I heard three different tables talking about this programme and I was like, oh wow.

46:50I was like, this, we need to show everyone that these are the arts. All these things that we consume all the time are the things that we can do as jobs. And AI, frankly, is, you know, there's no, I don't see why we should be learning rote about Tudors because, like, we have it all on AI. We need to be thinking of new things that can save our planet, can save our world. And creative thinkers mixed with AI is the future. It isn't learning maths by rote. It's just not. I just couldn't agree with you more. It's why your book is really, really important. I mean, it's more than a book. It's a movement.

47:27And that is what you are sparking here. Because the next stage is to get that book into every primary school in the UK. And I'm right there. I'm definitely doing it for my niece's school. Tell me about this bit, because we've got a lot of listeners listening right now. Tell me about how you want us to get involved. OK, so the book has 50 different mentors from across the creative industries and they all have a double page spread each and they each talk about how they got into the industry, their routine and their skills and blah, blah, blah. So now I want to take all of that online and create an online resource so that anyone, regardless of background, can access this and it becomes a great big creative careers tool.

48:14so the idea with the book is that it goes into year six classrooms so age 11 so just before kids are going up to secondary school and it gives them the language to talk to their carers and parents about these fantastic jobs that they might want to do when they go to secondary because when they go to secondary I could tell you now that they will not be told about these jobs maybe graphic design maybe a couple of the top hitters but they will not know about making wigs or being a sound technician or being a carpentry a carpenter on a film set so this is about giving all those kids the opportunity to see these fantastic jobs to be able to go online and watch our podcasts and have you know my friend harry is like head of costume at the hammersmith lyric and he also designs for drag race and to hear him talk on a podcast about his routine and how it's accessible for everyone is what i want every kid to see and the idea about getting these books into primary school is to make sure that everyone can see a virtual, like an actual copy of it, but then go, oh, okay, this is the movement.

49:19I am creative. I want to tell my teachers about this. I want them to buy the books in. I want to follow their podcasts. And it's just about, it is absolutely a movement, but it's really linking mentors, so industry mentors with schools and trying to make that link between education and industry and my bigger idea as I was saying to you before is to eventually be able to do apprenticeships to have big make days to have like all of creative industries open up their factories their workshops throughout the UK I mean throughout the world clearly that would be my goal but throughout the UK you know so you have a carpentry shop in Sheffield and they go okay I'm going to open up my shop for a day or for a week bring the kids let me show them what they do and so the kids can have actual tangible conversations with people and then see that it's a route that they can go into because at the moment I mean for instance I went and did an assembly at my niece's school and it's an all girls grammar school and there was about 300 girls in the audience and afterwards they honestly like half of them put their hands up And most of the questions were, can you do this as a real job or is it a side hustle?

50:36My mum and dad say not to go into this. And I was really shocked. And I asked these questions and I was like, they are real jobs and this is how you get into them. And then when I asked their teachers at the end, I said, where do you send these girls? Like online. And they said the UCAS website. And I was like, huh? I was like, there is nowhere that is doing something like this that shows the work that we do in the industries. And so that's why it's so important to get this out and to get our whole, you know, nation like talking about creativity is a good thing. Yeah, absolutely. This is the future.

51:12So for everyone here on the podcast, you've heard it here. We all know a kid might be the neighbor's kid, whatever. It might be your own might be your niece. I'm going to do my niece's school where you're going to go on to Rude's website. You're going to buy the school pack. It's two books, two posters and some stickers. I think it's£60 and you're going to buy it. And then you're going to go to the school and you're going to give this in to the school. And maybe you even what I'm thinking is I'm going to offer my services. So I'm going to offer to go in and maybe read from the book to the kids once a week about some careers and talk about it all.

51:51And so this is something so important, everyone. If we all bitch and moan about the rise of AI in that sort of scary way, and we're not actually looking at the fact that actually creative thinkers plus AI might basically save the planet, or there might be some amazing things that come out of it, we can do this here. You're 25 years, Ru, into running the business. So you've thriving design studio, wonderful gallery coffee shop everyday sunshine in stoke newrington yeah you're married you work together i saw sometimes i'm going to just say this but probably there's a reality i saw sometimes your boys work in the coffee shop they do yeah yeah billy lives in south london now but herbie works every saturday sunday although we had a hilarious moment when rue herbie and i were working last weekend and herbie came in at the most busiest moment and there was like people backed up out the door waiting for coffees and just basically blamed me for running a really bad shop.

52:54So I threw the spoon in the sink and I was like, right, you deal with it, and just marched out like an absolute baby. To be fair, we have a lovely new shop manager now called Kat, who's amazing, and she's brought in these new systems that Herbie now works to, and Abbie still works, and I do still work with the old systems. So it's a bit of a clash. Brilliant. That makes a happy weekend. Herbie still works in the shop, which is great. So would you say that now you look at this world that you're creating, I like to call them sort of good life businesses. That's what it looks like from the outside.

53:32Would you have life any other way? No, I wouldn't have life any other way. I think running any business in these times is very challenging, as you know. The only answer is to keep on going. And if you can have that lifestyle out of it, which is about community, about people, about creativity, about, you know, all the good things in life, then I think you can have this amazing, rich life, basically, through your work, you know, and you can merge the things together. And I think eventually, you know, going back to AI, it is this scary thing. But if we can use it in the right way with creativity, with community, then I think we probably can end up in a good place.

54:28But it's hard to see that at the moment, isn't it? Because the world is so... I think we will go through dystopia before we get to utopia. But it is there, you know, if everyone can have good health care throughout the globe, etc., and access to water. These are things that could be worked out with the intelligence of AI, but with the empathy and the humanness of people.

54:53I'm sure you're familiar with Royal Mail postboxes and parcel postboxes. I mean, aren't they a recognisable sight across the country? I know I walk past them multiple times a day. Well, did you know you can use them to post parcels as well as letters? They're another easy and quick way to send your parcels. And you can even pop those small parcels like earrings or small t-shirts into your post box at the end of your street. And the best part? You can get proof of posting using the Royal Mail app. Why not find out about how to send your parcels at royalmail.com?

55:33I was thinking about what you would just say the riches it's funny you should say that because I was really thinking about the riches and sort of you know programming myself for the next decade and what we've been brought up on in terms of how we believe so certainly I've touched on being a woman in business but just generally in business what we believe business to be you know so yeah Grow it, expand it, you know, make a lot of money, sell it and move on, you know, and shareholder value and all these sorts of things. And whether that we're at a point where with this rise of AI and rise of technology and rise of the ability to squeeze every margin out of everything, you know, you can do that now because of the way and the world that we live in.

56:21But is there now amazing space to do not the opposite from running a fake business? I mean, is there the space now to do the opposite, which is to build businesses like yourselves that can create meaningful, proper movements whilst being profitable, whilst doing all the tickboxing, but actually their riches. it's not just capital it's not just money the riches are in the impact and I'm really doing a lot of thinking about that for myself at the moment I think you're totally right I think that it's all about being holistic and running it in the way that you want to run it so you have to ask yourself what are the things that are really important to me and if it is greed money wealth blah blah blah then great good luck um but if it is the things that make you tick and fill your heart back up i mean for us it's definitely community we see it in our shop every day so it is making a direct impact you know and that's really valuable and i think spreading the word of creativity those are the things that are really important to us but you have to define what they are where we had an amazing woman called selena barker who helped us get ourselves out this big knot that we were in about a year ago.

57:44We really managed to redefine what it was we wanted. We had to write a letter back from our 80 year old selves, like, where am I? What am I doing? Who am I surrounded with? What are the most cherished bits? A bit like the letter that we'll read to you in a minute. But those things, I mean, for us, it isn't about money really anymore. It's about spreading the word about creativity. And it's about seeing our nation become playful and hopeful again and I think it's time for an art renaissance and if we lived in a place where there was an art renaissance that came from the young I think we would all feel much better in our day-to-day businesses.

58:22Hallelujah yes I'm in where do I sign? Right right here baby. Right right here baby this is it we've we've I just I really honestly we started this podcast when I was offline saying I think this podcast could be about two and a half hours long if we allowed ourselves but we are coming towards the end and you guys have really really shared it feels like so much of the ups and downs of of your journey I do use the analogy that doing this gig is a roller coaster Ru what would you say has been one of your biggest lows I'd like to ask you both maybe they're going to be the same but on this on this roller coaster where you felt sick in your stomach can you cite a certain time um no I I don't know like obviously we had a low when we had to close our original shop but I you know I've sort of loved the journey you know I love working for myself I love being creative and I suppose one of the lows would come you know when you get a bit older like I turned 52 years ago and that's quite hard like as you're getting older and you're still sort of trudging along and it's still very hard to make an independent business work so you're not getting any younger but it's getting harder so that that that can be a bit of a low but I wouldn't do anything else I remember going for I think I tried one more time to go for an interview for a job and I was 32 and he just said you're too old and then I just thought well bugger that so I'm just I'm all in and I know I'm never going to retire.

1:00:06You're proudly unemployable I call that to myself. I've always been unemployable always and I'm fine with that. You're fine with that and what about you what would you say has been a low? Well, I think when I spoke about that before, about having to liquidate and also I was married before and that finished at the same time. So my marriage collapsed and then I got with Rupert and we had a baby and the business liquidated and I literally just felt like I could walk off the edge of the earth. So I think that was probably it. But then you have this amazing child that's there and, you know, your focus changes and it becomes about something different.

1:00:49So there's, like you say, then the roller coaster goes up again and then it comes back down. But I think for me, having my credibility taken away from me was what really hit me. Yeah. Oh, I've never heard that one. Credibility taken away from you. And what about when the wind is in your hair and you're on the most well-designed cart at the top and everyone's jealous of your cart because it looks very cool. What would you say has been, Abby, to you, one of your greatest highs? I think when a project culminates is when I'm very happy. So, you know, these projects can take a long time. Like we refurbished a whole bakery and split it into various units and that includes the shop.

1:01:33And that was a really big project. And then when that comes to fruition and you open your shop doors, for instance, all of our shop windows were hoarded up. And it was only the morning that we opened the shop and this light came through and it was totally biblical. and everyone just ran in because it was you know just after covid and just said thank god you're open this is amazing this is what we need we need color and community and somewhere where we can all talk about art and artists can gather and i think to bring all of those things in which are all of our core values and all of you know uh it's everything to us is all those things that ruse said i mean we have exactly the same core values so that's good and and conversely yourself would that be well i would i would say i would say the shock now is is one of those highs because it just it after five years it's almost five years old it's working and um it it works you know it works you know so it's a success story you know which is you know we don't know how long it's going to be around for it might be another five years it might be another 10 years um but it's worked and that's what we're we're very proud of it just add one more thing to the shop is that we have started to turn it into a studio where we're doing the podcasts for the book so it's for anyone that's never been it has like glass on two sides it's like a classic corner shop but we have uh gigs and stuff that we're starting to live stream and all of this will create content for the book that will go up online and we'll be interviewing musicians and all sorts of people but you'll be able to come and watch recordings happen in the shop like a studio space and that's really exciting to be able to put the word out like that and mix like in real life things and also share them as well so that's for me is like the future of the shop to combine everything again and make it a very physical space that people can come and experiment with their work amazing gosh lucky people lucky people it's that time we we sort of started didn't we right at the beginning talking about the little ones i'm i know you've both prepared letters to your younger self have you shared them with each other we have you have yeah i abby wrote hers yesterday oh i wrote mine this morning.

1:04:01Fantastic. Well, who should we start? Who would like to go first? I think Abby should go first. I knew you'd say that. Okay. Over to you, Abby. Okay. Dear Abby, you'll be pleased to know that you don't really change that much. At five or at 53, you are still the same person. Even your dress sense embarrassingly stays consistent. Once a tomboy, always a tomboy. You always felt you were a little bit different, a bit special and truthfully, you still feel that. A big part of that comes from always being given the freedom to be creative. It was never questioned that you could do exactly what you wanted to do.

1:04:41I remember a friend's mum once saying, Abby will always do what she wants and you will never be able to stop her. And she was right. Even now when I get an idea, I don't stop to decide whether it's a good or a bad one. I just go for it. And it's only afterwards do I sometimes reflect and think well maybe that wasn't the best idea but the point is I pursue things wholeheartedly. That encouragement to be authentic to follow what I love has carried me through of course there's times when I've drifted or lost my way but generally I'm still excited by the same things that lit me up when I was younger.

1:05:13I could offer advice to my younger self it would be to prioritize yourself and your practice more. You've always been an idealist you're often dreaming on behalf of others, but it's important to champion yourself too. Your highs will come from seeing things through, whether it's a fashion collection, a house renovation, opening a shop or delivering a project or writing a book. Your pride will come from your perseverance. Looking back, maybe I tell you to try and understand yourself more quickly. But at the time, there's been such richness in this journey and you'll be lucky enough to own your own home, to create work you believe in and to live a full creative life and make a difference.

1:05:51I remember Rupert's dad before he died, he lined up his obituary in the garden, in the garden, in the Guardian. Rupert's dad lined up his obituary in the Guardian about his amazing career. And I thought, yes, I want an obituary in the Guardian showing how I made a difference. And I hope that the work that I'm pursuing in the creative careers will spark an art renaissance and be part of that. But here's what I really want to tell you. You're going to have a lot of fun with a lot of really fun people. And if that ever stops, then you know that you've taken a detour. With love, me.

1:06:26Love it, Abby. Thank you so much for sharing. Thank you. You're welcome. I'm going to hand over to Rupert. Mine's not as long as that.

1:06:40Abby's good with words. Mine says, dear Rupert, how's it going? Just so you know, you were right. you're much better at being an adult than being a teenager you're more in control and you give less f's so I can't say that word and you don't care what anyone else thinks which has been the problem for most of your life caring what people think how crazy is that I know school was hard as a you didn't want to be there and b all you wanted to do was art well the good news is that's what you have continued to do without hesitation even when financially at times it's been impossible you've kept on going and it's given you the lifestyle that you've always wanted putting creativity first above anything else so I would say to the younger me have the confidence to be yourself and to know that you are as good as all those other students who get straight A's you're as good as all those people excelling at sport music and foreign languages you will find your people you will find your family and you you will make a life out of being creative and all that it brings they don't call you the felt it wizard for nothing love rupa

1:08:00beautiful babe felt it wizard you know when I listen to both of you I feel so grateful because in one hand I'm saying so after 25 years and then I sit with two people bearing their soul, telling me about the energy that they have to making a real difference, to feeling a bit tired and it's harder than ever. But at the same time, you're going to give this everything. And we're really lucky that you are enthused enough by creativity that we have you championing it for us. What would we do without people like you? You know, and I say that it's hard for you maybe to hear that but it's the truth because thank god thank god abby you're and rupert you're this passionate that after 25 years of giving giving giving you're going to give some more and that you're it feels like you're just beginning and that's what i love about this journey it just takes that mindset doesn't it the shift the slamming of the table on the floor and saying, no, Rishi, this is not going to be happening.

1:09:13And for you to do it, Abby, for you to get that energy. And then we get to watch you and support you. But you had to do the hard work first. And I just wanted to say thank you because I know that is not easy. Not after 25 years, right? It's just not easy. But, you know, good on you. Good on you for being who you are. Thank you. it is it's important isn't it i was suddenly thinking you know if we hadn't taken the bold steps to buy this building and and create the shop that we've created a developer would have come in and turned it into soulless flats and you would have just had people living here you know that you know that it takes creative people to do extraordinary things and without those people you would just have plain robots yeah but likewise to you holly it's incredibly inspirational what you do and i think the way that we all have to support each other and pick each other up and say you know it is okay to fold a business these things are important to be heard and have that support and you do that so so well so massive thank you to you yeah thank you holly thank you Well, I'm just, I feel just renewed with energy and that potentially there's some more things that we can do together from this podcast and just well done for looking after our children of the future.

1:10:42And actually I go as far as to say well done for creating an avenue where I feel hopeful. I can deal with AI if there's creativity. I almost can deal with life and I can even deal with the shambles that we're living in if there's creativity. I mean, without creativity, there's no hope. And so thank you. Thank you for doing what you're doing. And I wish you everything. Amazing. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Holly. Much appreciated. Thank you for joining me today. If you've enjoyed this episode, can I ask that you share it with a friend and like, subscribe and review it too, so that together we can inspire even more people to follow their dreams, to build a life they love.

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