Meet The Man Behind The Sidemen's $100M Empire

36:19Jordan Schwarzenberger:And you're just reinvesting it all. Yeah. And whatever you do, I mean, it's, you know. Is that the same with the vodka and all of them? With all of the brands, the consumer brands specifically, they will not see a penny until they sell, realistically. And again, that's because this whole thing's been set up with multiple different streams of revenue. So like those brands are not going to make you loads of money. It's even like you look at Mr. Beeson, Beastables, and you look at the numbers for that. And that, remember, is in America, 320 million market in terms of people. You've got a business that is 250 million in retail sales.

36:51Jordan Schwarzenberger:Great. Amazing. But they make a gross profit of 25 million. Yeah. And you sit there and go like, what's the point? Yeah. Why? Don't be wrong. 25 million is a lot of money. But once you net out your team costs and your offices and everything else, marketing, you might be left with half that. Yeah. 12 and half, 10. Don't get me wrong. Again, great. But for 250 million retail sales, and that's just the game. But then if Feastables can build market share and can get, I mean, Hershey's is at six, I think it's six, I want to say six billion or something stupid, right? So they've got a long way to go.

37:25Jordan Schwarzenberger:But if they can chip away and get to, you know, 5%, 10%, then that's an acquisition that's going to happen. I've heard you talk about, yeah i've heard you talk about north stars and like the importance of that so is that important in all this when you're pitching this to these guys it's like you're gonna invest a lot of time and money and effort in something and probably not see any return on it yeah so i think it's about having diversification right in in terms of the way they make their money to the point where you have money coming in from youtube which is their salary that's their bread and butter and it makes a considerable amount because of the volume and the length of content then you've got your or membership revenue with Cyplus, which again is like a cash cow in the sense that it provides that kind of ongoing revenue at high profit with very little cost relatively.

38:10Jordan Schwarzenberger:So those two become your kind of cash businesses, but you're not necessarily going to sell Cyplus. Maybe you could if you could extract out Vimeo, which is the kind of tech partner for it. And if you were to build your own, but again, do you really want to do that? It's a massive risk, et cetera. So I think those are ones where like you don't own those, but they're good revenue, right? Really good revenue. And then you have the businesses that you do own that you're not going to see money from for many, many years, but might that you have no idea. No one knows, but they might materialize into something really good.

38:38Jordan Schwarzenberger:And there's a good enough, I think, group of people around those businesses and enough money that's gone into them by our partners, effectively, and their partners, franchise partners, etc. To sort of be confident that there's only one way out, that this kind of has to work. It's not an option really for it to fail because they've been so well invested in. So I would say, you know, in that sense, yeah, you've got kind of cash generation, you've got owned and co-owned long-term equity businesses that build up equity value over time. And then you have the VC fund, which is a combination of the two, because really, yes, you can, I mean, you can't really sell funds, I don't think really, but that's a 10 year deploying the cash from here, putting it into longer term investments.

39:20Jordan Schwarzenberger:We've got about, you know, 14 or something investments with upside, which is the VC fund. And then that's fund one. And then you can get to fund two, three, four, you can raise and build and grow that fund portfolio. And then again, that's a 20, 30 year sort of journey that will likely materialize in some really good returns. But you're looking at 10 years to see if that's worked, you know? So it's kind of like you've got your 10 year window, your five to 10 year window with 10 year window with upside, five to 10 year window with the consumer brands, and then you've got your immediate revenue there.

39:47Jordan Schwarzenberger:So it's a nice spread actually. Yeah. And then basically you're just planting seeds. Some will win, some won't. But you're giving it a go with enough diversification so you're not trapped on any one of them, if that makes sense. So you're not trapped on YouTube, you're not trapped on SidePlus, you're not trapped on the brands, you're not trapped on the VCs, being your only source of revenue or income or your only hope for the future because then that's, I think, quite dangerous position psychologically to be in. If you're a creator listening to this, I take the lesson there that you make sure you've got a solid, profitable business that is taking care of your living needs and probably taking care of a lot more yeah um and then you can take the risk with some of these these other investments and opportunities that where there's potentially loads of upside but it's like it's pure risk though right and there's no guarantee that they'll work and even things like you know assumptions on retail behavior will your audience or people who know you will that provide enough of a base of customers to then springboard some action in retail that can then grow and spread from there right that's an assumption that we've never really tested we're trying it out i mean we've obviously tried out a few others have as well and like you know it's there are so many lessons in that around retention and who's really in real retail who's really shopping at these places you know what's the uh cut through over time and there's all this stuff we just don't know we don't know how these brands are going to work in five years when this audience grow up even more and then you know so there's all of those assumptions that can only be i guess learned through trying yeah and so we can do is just give it a go and see.

41:18Jordan Schwarzenberger:Um, and then I think, yeah, for as a creator, the key is that you're, you're good on a lifestyle perspective. Your money's fine and you've got enough diversification even away from YouTube, whether it's through brands, whether it's through speaking, whatever it might be that you've built enough away from YouTube that it's, your life is independent on your kind of continued content production. I think that's really difficult because actually that is in itself is a bit of a trap where you then end up. And it's something, this is the, to the point I said earlier about why so many creators, I think, stuck in a way is because they're in this YouTuber trap of in order to pay my bills, I have to make the same type of content again and again and again.

41:52Jordan Schwarzenberger:But what does that do? It means you make the same content because you have to pay your bills and maybe your staff. But then what does that mean? It means that, well, if that content is too ambitious and is too, you know, I guess Mr. Beastified, if you will, in terms of insane ideas have never been seen, which work for some, but if that's what you've been aiming for and you've trained your audience to expect that, you have to keep that up. And that might be very expensive. It might also take a lot of time. And so you're in this position where you're actually stuck making like one big video, for example, every month that costs a lot of money, takes up all your time.

42:26Jordan Schwarzenberger:It might be a great video, but that's not going to pay the bills really. And because then you can't scale, or maybe it does pay the bills, but it just pays the bills. How do you produce more volume? How do you create new ideas and new IP? It's very difficult. So a lot of creators I see are stuck on that treadmill of I have to do the same thing. Some have good, nicely profitable models with that. Some don't. But then also all of them, really, most of them, struggle to then say, well, I'm going to do something new because doing something new is a risk that can alienate the audience. And so it's really hard.

42:56Jordan Schwarzenberger:And I think because, yes, YouTube can make a lot of money, but it also is, you know, okay, well, how long is that gravy train going to last? You want to just keep it going and understand that. And that's why innovation on YouTube is actually quite difficult, especially on single channels, which is why I think having multiple channels and building out more individual assets is so valuable because then you can train the algorithm to service or to serve the content that you want to make in something totally new to that audience set without it harming your existing audience. And so there's nice clarity there.

43:22Jordan Schwarzenberger:That's why I think even like people like 4.0, I think I've done a really good job, or even Foot Asylum, but I don't think the value in the singular channel is the way. I would have done them as separate channels. Interesting. Locked in or whatever should be its own channel for me and should be its own world because then you can really tailor and serve the audience so nicely that the algorithm will know exactly who wants that specific content, then the growth potential is way more. Problem is, is if you've got a general channel with like five shows, somebody might be interested in that, but not that.

43:49Jordan Schwarzenberger:And that's a sign of disengagement that ultimately will deprioritize the content or the channel because it'll show a lack of retention or a lack of CTR, which will then obviously degrade it in the eyes of YouTube naturally. So it's hard, right? But I think it's like, yeah, having that sense of innovation as a creator is really difficult. And that's why I think money should flow in more into this space. I think it will with brands and others. I mean, we're even thinking about some of this stuff around. How can you support those creators who are stuck to build that new IP? So how do you have success today if you're a creator?

44:23If you're looking at the sidemen and you're like, I want that. I feel this creative urge to make content.

44:30Jordan Schwarzenberger:Yeah. Well, I think you'll have, I think it's around thinking commercially is really important. I think thinking as a brand or thinking as a media buyer or a media planner is so key when you're actually building a YouTube channel because your revenue is advertising revenue that is bought based on audience sets. So your money comes from the strength of and the clarity of your audience for an advertiser. So if your content and we have to work back from that to make content that is then going to be commercially strong enough to be bought by an advertiser. And if you aren't thinking in that terms, you might build very generic content that might be totally non-commercial.

45:08Jordan Schwarzenberger:It might be great, but it might not make any money or it might not really have the potential from a brand perspective. So I think the more clarity around your audience and doesn't necessarily mean you niche down within a set, but at least have a set. I think you see a lot of creators now who are very generic entertainment who follow even and the side men are not the example because the side men built such a strong audience doing general entertainment across multiple different verticals. that they are of a class and you're sort of, you know, it's a place of their own. And actually it's sort of the side and everybody else in terms of consistency, verticalization, strength of the content and their team, et cetera.

45:42Jordan Schwarzenberger:And the audience and the consistency around that is so unique, but that's because they built to such scale as individuals at a time when you could do that. Now, I think it's very difficult to also to both do that and also make money at the same time. And I think you need to therefore have more clarity around your audience. So who are you building for. So for example, if you are a creator, I'm like, well, okay, I want to be a YouTuber and I want to make videos. Well, let me think about my interest areas in relation to advertisers, because I might want to make videos on this thing, but there might be no advertisers around, for example, politics might be stuff I want to do, but there's no advertisers who want to advertise in politics.

46:16Jordan Schwarzenberger:It's like a total red light dead zone. So do it as a labor of love, but it's not going to make you money. Okay. So that ticks off whether that should be the thing you do as a creator. If you want to make it your job, it might be the thing you do on the side, but it's not going to be your job necessarily or news. Great, but very non-commercial. But actually if you go, well, I'm also really interested in football or I'm interested in the NFL. I'm interested in this sport golf. Okay. Well, golf has these advertisers. What will those advertisers want? They'll want long form content. They'll want content that speaks to a specific audience that who will buy X products.

46:47Jordan Schwarzenberger:And then you can tailor your content back to build the audience set for the advertiser. And that gives you a nice creative boundary around the content you can then go and make. But if you're not thinking advertiser first, then you're not going to build a commercial. YouTube channel. So, and some get lucky because they just build huge cults personality, but we've seen that with even people like speed and others who build huge cults personality, but they're so general at the beginning that, you know, they almost have to then find their lane thematically, but also you can do it in a way that alienates brands and advertisers and you have to build that confidence back up.

47:15Jordan Schwarzenberger:He's now done that really well. He's got a good team around him that have helped, but it can also be, you know, just doing everything can also be a, be a problem. So I think it's about finding some thematic lane. It's not even niching in like a tight way. It's like finding a thematic advertising lane that has enough ripe advertisers who are spending on YouTube you can target. So why things like travel, et cetera, are good because you have all these travel brands who are sponsoring content. Okay, cool. Then make content. If you want to be in travel, think about the advertiser before you make any video because then you make content that will actually drive a good CPM and you'll make content which from a partnership perspective is very clear.

47:49Jordan Schwarzenberger:Brands, everyone just want a simple life. They want to know, right, you are X creator, you make X content, you have this audience and these are your numbers. Cool. Well, I'll advertise with you because you're an advertising channel. That's very interesting. I'm super proud to let you know that this podcast is produced by 7x content, my own podcast agency and podcast coaching accelerator. So if you'd like to start your own podcast or take your existing one to the next level, you can apply to work with us at the link in the description. Now let's get back into this week's episode. is the next step there is it like approaching brands directly and saying i'm building in this space and i'd love to partner with you or is it going and seeking out like an agency i think if you're a creator on your own and you have no connections in in the industry it's very difficult um to know where to start what to do like it's almost impossible it's a bit of an impossible task because you're so you're so disconnected from the world of brands and ultimately the industry is not some random it's advertisers you're in the advertising marketing industry That's what you are as a creator.

48:47Jordan Schwarzenberger:You are a publisher of content, which serves to a specific audience that advertisers buy against. That's the whole business, whether it's through brand partnerships directly or whether that's through brand partnerships via AdSense. That's all you are. But that is kind of all we are is a line on a spreadsheet for an advertiser, right? Or a media plan. And it's a healthy way of looking at it because then you know your place in the world and you know what value you actually have. And also the goal, which is grow your audience in a tight way so that you can attract more advertisers who want to serve to the audience that you've built.

49:19Jordan Schwarzenberger:Should you be getting an agent? Should we be getting a manager? I think actually, no, not now, because you have YouTube, which is your agent. So YouTube is your agent. YouTube is selling advertising against your content for you. What I think you should do is focus entirely on audience and building an audience that is clear and strong and sizable within whatever space you're in and making enough money from a clever, well thought out content quite high volume strategy which has enough volume in it and enough profit within each video to make an actual business out of it which can totally be done but just with consistency and a bit of planning in advance do that and focus only on that i'd say you don't need a manager at all most people do not need management most creators most big talent i'd probably say 99 95 of talent don't need management probably about 5 of people do when they're at the stage where you've got a lamborghini that you can then go and so i always say it's like the talent is the cake management's the icing but you have to be a good cake you have to be a freaking big wedding cake ideally otherwise there's no point like you can't put icing on the little cupcake you can but it's a bad analogy but you know i mean you it doesn't um it doesn't justify the work and that's why most management companies i think will will fall off and fail most run on an 80 20 model of you know 20 your clients make money 80 that's sort of your interest which i don't think is fair sets one of the wrong expectations and i get that's the business but it's very difficult to then spread your time because actually you get dragged down by the 80%.

50:43Jordan Schwarzenberger:So, you know, you don't even do the 20 % well because of that model and that approach. And I just think the nature of talent is that, you know, nowadays you have to be able to do it all yourself. You have to be able to go from zero to probably seven. Maybe you get to zero to one back in the day on your own. And then a management manager gets you from one to 10, or even back in the day, a manager or team could make or break you. They could be the one to introduce you to ITV, introduce you to the BBC, introduce you to Channel 4, wherever it is. But now that's not the case at all. Now as a creator or as a talent, everyone's really a creator, like whether we like it or not.

51:16Jordan Schwarzenberger:Ant and Dec are a creator. And they know they are, but many presenting talent don't maybe appreciate that. No, they are content creators first, like principally. And that is their biggest opportunity, but also their biggest threat. If they don't build an audience, they will not survive or sustain value because value is built around the primary interface of culture, which is social media so like you have to be there and you have to be visible and present it's beyond the point of being an option obviously and that means making content and being being visible but if you can't even do that and you can't get your content to an audience that is like the biggest and you'll know this from from the stuff you do as well and stuff like the biggest challenge is finding how your voice can reach an audience because it's not linear for it's different for everyone because the thing that you might be interested in might be totally different to somebody else.

52:04Jordan Schwarzenberger:So you might not have a blueprint of exactly how to do it. And you have to find repetition through time, through practice, through iteration, how to match your voice to what audiences actually want. And that's a journey of like, it might take time, right? As you'll probably know from yourself, I definitely know from my stuff, it took a long time to find the stuff that actually starts to work. And then you double down on that. But that's having a creative mindset and most traditional talent and most often even a lot of creators, even a lot of influencers don't have that mindset because they maybe do the odd thing here and there.

52:31Jordan Schwarzenberger:And then it just builds a bit of an audience and they're just like, how do I keep this going? It's not as intentional. So I think, you know, if you can't do that bit, don't even don't, don't think about a team that you have to be able to get from there to there on your own first. And ideally from there to making money on your own first, you have to be at that point of like, I'm making money either from YouTube or making money from brand deals. And they're starting to come in. There's volume there because then you're giving a management team something to work from. And even then you should really be at the scale of I've been doing this, it's been working, but I now I have a platform of audience and value and money to invest and grow and build this business but you have to have a business for so if you treat talent more as a business um more than they are an individual then it becomes a bit clearer as to who did who needs management okay do you have a business is your business sizable enough to scale on the content side there's a couple of interesting things you've said there so i'd love your take on what is important in creating great content and having success with but you say a lot high volume, love to like double click on that.

53:30And then also you talk a lot about entertainment and entertainment content that is entertaining. I guess that's because it is broader and it builds larger audiences.

53:41Jordan Schwarzenberger:Can you like expand a little bit on how you think about what makes good content and how you have success with it? Yeah. So I'd say like the word entertainment is loose, right? I mean, everything's really entertaining if it ticks the boxes of social and YouTube. I mean, all platforms want three things. I've been sort of distilling it into a nice alliterative three S's, right? You've got stop, stay and satisfy. But the more I think about social is those three things. That's all it is. Are people stopping? Are they staying? And are they satisfied? And all the platforms want content that does that.

54:13Jordan Schwarzenberger:So good content has to tick those three boxes. And your job as an individual creator, whoever you are, is to learn how to become great at stopping people, getting them to stay and satisfying them. And that's easier said than done. It's because it's the, obviously that's just a framework. You then have to go and do it. And that might be difficult for some and very easy for others. And it might take time based on your area and your theme and what you're interested in making, et cetera. It's harder for someone who has maybe something incredibly obscure to do that, or maybe someone who's maybe older and less socially native.

54:42Jordan Schwarzenberger:So it'll take time, but those are the three things. And those are the three things only it's stopping, staying and satisfying your audience. And that obviously differs on, on platform slightly, right on YouTube. It's more important really that they stop. So packaging is so fundamental to YouTube because it's a way more intentional platform in terms of viewership than social where it's fed to you. YouTube isn't really fed to you. It's sort of suggested to you. And then you've got a palette and a marketplace of content. You can choose very intentionally what you watch and what you spend time on.

55:09Jordan Schwarzenberger:So getting people to stop is the most important part of YouTube. And then really it's getting people to stay. And then it's probably satisfying them. And you have to build up to being really good at all three. And a master of content is one who can do all of those things, three things really, really well. But it's the same for social, same for Instagram, same for TikTok, especially now, especially with non-follower servicing of content where you can, I mean, you'll probably find this with a few posts. I definitely find it with my stuff where, you know, 90 % sometimes is non-follower based. That's the way that Instagram's moved.

55:34Jordan Schwarzenberger:That's the way that TikTok has been with the For You page. So now you're speaking to non-follower. So your job of stop, stay and satisfy has to be to people who don't know who you are. So how are you finding topics and finding areas of content to work within that can have broader appeal? because again, all these platforms will service to audiences they think will like it, but it has to attract people who don't know you or don't care about you. So that's a very different role as a creator now, because you're not speaking to a community, really. You're speaking to everybody who might be interested in the thing you're talking about.

56:03Jordan Schwarzenberger:And then it's learning. And the only way to get good at stop staying satisfied is through practice and practice and practice again. And you have to be able to put in the reps of hundreds of videos and like get to the point where you've done, you know, 200 videos. Okay. Then maybe you'll, you know, you'll have a good read then around what works and what doesn't, but also what, you know, you, how your voice is getting people to stop, is getting people to stay in the satisfying them. And that's it. That's the basis of good content is those three things. As long as that's in everyone's mind, they can then say, all right, cool.

56:32Jordan Schwarzenberger:Well, let me get, let me understand what stop getting people to stop is, right? What does that mean? The thing as well, I'll say is learning how to be an analyst of content. So I've definitely become more of this over time when my, the way I spend time on Instagram and TikTok specifically is not to enjoy it as a fan of content is to see what's working and see stuff that gets me stopping and go, okay, well, why did that really attract me? Like, what was it about that video or about that carousel or about, you know, that podcast clip? What was it about it? Was it the font? Was it the lighting? Was it the cameras?

57:01Jordan Schwarzenberger:Was it the first frame? What was it about the first frame? What was it about the first line or the way it changed direction or whatever it was? And then you can start to see actually most content follows these blueprints of what works them or doesn't. And it all comes down to that point on stop, stay and satisfy. It's like they're all trying to get you to stop to keep you, to keep you there. Okay. How are they going to keep you there? They're going to twist the narrative in some way. Is something going to have a, you know, an opposite direction? Is there going to be some contrarian take? What is it that's going to make you stay and what keeps you watching stuff?

57:27Jordan Schwarzenberger:I think it's really important because actually you'll be a reflection of many others, but what keeps you watching something? And the minute you zoom out and you look at content as an analyst, it becomes way easier to work out. Oh, well, that's what they're doing there. Or that's why I stopped with this or why I like this video. I mean, I never like anything on social media. I don't know who people, some people do, but what is it, what does it take for you to like something? If you're somebody who doesn't really like content, what is it about it? Is it the, is it the respect you have for the video?

57:50Jordan Schwarzenberger:Is it the, you just really appreciate the craft that went into it? The visuals were stunning. What was it? And I think the minute you start breaking down content in that way, it becomes way easier to become good at it because you'll learn and you'll take inspiration and you'll say, well, that really worked for me. So I'll try that in my next video. But I think it's so important that you get on that treadmill of producing, making, publishing, whoever, like literally there's no excuse for anyone to not be doing it. Everyone has a phone, everyone can do it. And if you want to be good and you want to understand effectively the building blocks for communication in this next era of culture, you have to be understanding how, what, what it means to be a creator and what it means to publish and create online because social is the interface to culture.

58:31Jordan Schwarzenberger:We all have phones, we all have accounts, we can all do it. I think it's worth everyone's time to try. I think you've got like 50 ,000 at least on LinkedIn. So LinkedIn's like 80K and then Instagram's like 56. And they're both really good. I really enjoy them both. And I think I can see the evolution, particularly on Instagram. You're crushing it on Instagram. No, you know, it's like I've definitely, we've been through so many like testing, learning, iterations, et cetera. and like some stuff goes like, and again, it shows the dynamic of social, which is that it is in this non-follower algorithm because when something runs and this is, you have to get to the point where you're doing enough and you're trying enough different things and you've got a strategy and a clear theme in an area and that can be hard as well, sticking to that.

59:17Jordan Schwarzenberger:Like, oh, you know, business of content, for me, it's like business of content, something that I'm really passionate about, but also sometimes you want to do other stuff and actually that can stray and be a bit non-strategic and you have to always keep quite disciplined. It can be hard for creatives who like to stray. but I think having that sense of this is my setup, my structure, this is what I'm going to be making, this is a good reference, I think it's really important to go, this is a channel or an account that I want to make as good content as this, I want to do this, like this is really good, this is my favorite creator on the platform, this is how they're making stuff, I want to do my own version of that, there's no shame in that, I want to make content that's as good as them, what do they do?

59:51Jordan Schwarzenberger:Okay, well they had a really good hook, they had this sort of setup, they had this sort of lens maybe this sort of lighting maybe this and you know you obviously you bring yourself to it but you take the framework of someone else's car whatever it is you take the blueprint of the house probably a better analogy and you build your own off the back of that blueprint and you put your interior design in and you make it yours but ultimately you're building you're basing it off a blueprint that's already proven to work and that's I think again so important people get too uh egotistical and emotional about their own ability on social on with content and with with communication, but also I think, you know, an over inflated idea of how good their content actually is.

1:00:25Jordan Schwarzenberger:Most content sucks. Like most of us are just not very good. I'm definitely not. You have to learn how to engineer it. And it's something I was saying to this room yesterday. How do you know? Probably about 20 or so people from the top indie production companies and commissioners, broadcasters, et cetera. And I was saying the word that defines the next era or the phrase that defines the next era of content production is not production, it's engineering. So I think it's content engineering. I've been saying this for a while, I've been like, content engineering, that's a way better way of understanding what content is today and what your role is because you're not even really a creator.

1:00:59Jordan Schwarzenberger:Creator, yes, of course, in one sense, but you're deeper than that. You're in it, you're a content engineer. And I thought actually that's a good way of describing it because you're shaping and iterating and testing and learning and optimizing to get the outcome you want, which is connecting on these algorithms and through these platforms. But you have to engineer success. there's literally no such thing as like you know just being good no one's good i think even mr beast would probably say he's not good he's become good yeah and he made what 415 videos before he did anything um and then he became you know it's not because because he became good he just understood what worked and what didn't yeah he went the distance enough to get enough data enough understanding of what works to then be able to smash it and crush it but yeah too much i think And a lot of people crash out because they're creatives and they're like, oh, you know, why did this not work?

1:01:49Jordan Schwarzenberger:I thought it was really good. And no, ultimately it's because it wasn't good, but we think that it's good. And so you have to do enough learning of what people actually want, which requires enough volume and enough output to then be able to make stuff that works. Quick nugget of gold for you. If you're trying to grow a podcast or any content, one of the easiest ways to do it is actually just asking your audience to share with their friends or with other people who they think could get value from it. So what I'm going to do right now is ask you to take out WhatsApp and send this episode to one or two people who might find it interesting.

1:02:22It would mean the world to me and it will help grow the show. So I'd really appreciate it if you could think of one or two people to send it to. Now let's get back into this week's episode. I'd love to touch on how you see the space and the bigger trends here. Because I think, like you said at the beginning, there's never been a better time to be a creator or someone like the Sidemen. You know, landing deals with Netflix, huge platform of their own, all these businesses, and anyone can unlock that now if they're determined enough and they just press record and publish. but equally you've got these algorithms which are serving increasingly not to people who've followed you in the past like every piece of content has to be optimized and like follow a set of rules to get engagement and if someone doesn't click on your last video they're probably not going to get shown your next five or ten so what what do you see some of the trends underlying

1:03:24Jordan Schwarzenberger:that i think you've talked about like the monoculture yeah things like that like how do you see totally well i guess my my biggest overarching uh view on culture and content we talked about the monoculture is that tiktok splintered what we knew as culture in 2020 pre-2020 and then post 2020 became very different and it moved from really being around editorial gatekeepers to total decentralization and really personalization so you control your feed on every single platform to such a degree of personalization that you only see the things you want to see. And that creates a total fragmentation of society, really.

1:04:01Jordan Schwarzenberger:Because if our interface of culture is social media and everyone's seeing only what they want to see, then you end up in a position where there is no echo chamber as if that's a shared thing. Like your whole existence is an echo chamber in terms of what you think culture is and how you think the world is operating and working, etc. Because your world is being interfaced by yourself and that's a really i think quite a dangerous place to be and it's no fault the platforms it's just it's the inevitable endpoint of increased personalization is you just become a master of one and the god of your own content and cultural universe and that's a very i think for various different reasons that's that's causing i think a lot of the loneliness is causing a lot of the disconnection you know a lot of the fragmentation politically all that stuff's happening because of that thing and that that's sort of overarching trend but then you get to okay well what what from a technical perspective is behind that and it is the for you page it's the discovery algorithm i think that's a maybe a decent way of understanding the fragmentation and the underlying technology being discovery pages and for you pages right and and the algorithms which are now so tailored around personalization so what that means is you have to uh cater to interest points that are far more specific in order to reach audiences and to reach new audiences than before because no longer is your following the basis of your engagement anymore.

1:05:20Jordan Schwarzenberger:Actually, most people who will watch your content won't even follow you. So TikTok, right? How many people do actually follow? Maybe you follow someone maybe to support them. I don't even know. I don't know why anyone would follow anyone. There's no need because you watch their content, you'll see it again and again. Maybe it's because you love it and you don't want to lose their content by scrolling onto other stuff. I don't know, but there's no need to follow. So every video you make, every piece of content you put out has to speak to an interest point or a selection of interest points that can reach non-follower audiences.

1:05:46Jordan Schwarzenberger:And that means that the content has to be far less, far more contextualized. It has to be more, um, I guess, uh, broader in terms of interest and, and, you know, will people actually care? And you have to think in, in the eyes of somebody who has no idea about you every single time you post. I think that's, uh, again, a very exciting opportunity because it means that great, well-crafted content can really fly and can crush it and actually no longer is you in this um i guess this influencer creator um car system where you have those that have big audiences doing well and everyone else doing not well actually now it's way more democratic and you can build an audience either consistently through making content that reaches a huge you know high amount of viewers viewers or converting into followers you can build that over time now as anybody as long as you're working towards that non-follower so i think yeah it's a really exciting opportunity actually for anyone because you can build and grow i mean even some of my stuff like some of the videos we did you know 10 million views and on account 20 000 for like that never used to happen on instagram you couldn't do that we've had videos you know do incredibly well um because they just somehow hit an audience hit an interest area appealed to a non-follower and you but you see the chart is 99.99 non-follower so that's what you're working in now um but again how much more exciting is that as a as a discovery option and and a way of creating then oh well i've only got this small audience and i have to really i don't mean back in the day you had to do collaborations with people you had to like work on shares try and get the big pages yet the kind of lab ibles of the world to share your content like everything was very gatekept but now it's not the algorithms are doing such a good job i think actually instagram especially i think and youtube obviously youtube up over there but instagram especially at servicing and allowing you to break out that if your content is good enough it will run and that's i guess the best place for every platform to be in if the content is good it will get seen if it's not good it won't get seen what more really could we ask i don't think there's too much that's a fair that's fair fair game all right cool make better content get more people to start get more people to stay and satisfy them somehow emotionally in the video and if you do that again and again again you're good you know do you though also feel like i've got 10 million views on this instagram real and they're never they're never going to see it again like does it maybe put more importance on you then capturing their email or in some way take yeah bringing them offline like 100 and you need to think in that conversion point of okay from that 10 million to be honest i don't know you might have i don't know how many followers i got from that there's one video what was the one that did really there was a speed video that i did in the charity match that did really really well and i think i'll like it went like big big big crazy yeah but like but then you look at the numbers it's like yeah to your point that made zero money no one convert or very few people converted some did but but then you're you're thinking okay well actually you know this is to the point of conversion you have to be driving now more like seriously high numbers to get followers because again or be making content that is so personal and so vulnerable and so raw and so kind of connective with people on like a personal human level that they want to follow you because you've just they've fallen in love with you and there's kind of two they're like two strands of it, right?

1:08:56Jordan Schwarzenberger:It's like either really emotive kind of open and vulnerable personal content, which is, which is like very connecting with people or it's more optimized scale content, which is easier. And that again, that's a question for what you want to be doing. Cause some people might not want to bear their soul on Instagram. Fair enough. Okay. Then you have to be a bit more strategic around who you're targeting, how, and consistency and cadence and hitting higher numbers to convert followers in. But if you're somebody who's willing to talk about your relationships and your whatever it is you might or even just to give you know very kind of raw and unfiltered advice but you have to bear your soul a bit that might drive more conversion in con in your content and actually you'll be getting bigger numbers but does everyone want to be doing that not everyone does and that's fine there's two ways now again of doing it it's not linear anymore um somebody i think it's a really good example of not that again he's kind of bearing his soul but somebody was very vulnerable and honest in a video that did immensely well and rebirthed i think his career on as a creator was jack harry's so he moved out to cornwall and he did this launch video that was so beautifully shot and well put together he's a great storyteller it crushed it and you i would imagine that the followers the followers he got off the back of that one video which maybe he had no i think at the time a couple million i think it's now five ten it did really well will be maybe 10 of that video 20 of that video would have converted probably got half a million followers from it probably because it was so like personal and honest and raw and connective that people were like i really like you i want to follow your journey so it was a really good reason for people to follow making viral content or content that does really well might be funny you might do might do well in terms of numbers but strategically it might not bring anyone in yeah and i think it's again it's it's figuring that bit out and that's like an advanced stage i think is like the content you make might do really well but are people there for you or for the content are people actually caring enough and and again it's it's finding the balance not everyone wants to be that vulnerable like jack can do it and it probably popped in half a million followers from one video i don't i wouldn't even be surprised um but for others they might say no i don't that's not for me and that's also fine you know if someone's listening to this and they're like this sounds super interesting are there other creators out there who are looking for operators like what's your advice to them should do you think we're like very early here in terms of the creators being underserved and needing these teams i think we're early because most creators don't have enough of a business yet to be needing teams i still think in the uk there's probably five who actually need a team sideman being one beta squad being one couple of others but not many really yeah you need a proper team five to ten in the world it's probably about 20 30 maybe not a lot relatively right in terms of who who are who are going to be the new channels, the new, the new channel force, the new idea who's, who's got that potential.

1:11:44Jordan Schwarzenberger:Cyber and have that potential. Some in America do, but very few beyond a sort of small set. You probably, you probably know them probably can tell who I'd be, who I'd be listing. Cause I, cause they're the people I talk about in a lot of my content. Right. And there's only a few names to be honest. So I think we are early. Um, but what will determine the success of this space is who is willing to open themselves up to professionalization and double down on building audience because all of it comes back to audience and also being youtube first i actually i'm increasingly as time goes on i see youtube as being the only real store of value in this space i'm not overly tiktok is just increasingly transient i don't even think i think people are so brainwired when they're on tiktok they're not even really knowing like there's no there's either really tiny local depth on tiktok you see it and there's weird pockets and people have 100 likes but they've got this like 30 comments you know and they're like i know mum and where there's There's some little pockets, small real pockets of, I think in a way actually TikTok is becoming a bit of a social media platform rather than, weirdly, there's a world within it where people are talking to each other.

1:12:46Jordan Schwarzenberger:They're like making content. There's like diaries. People are like responding. And there's this like community level of TikTok. There's very like just normal real people, everyday people. And then there's obviously the sort of top level, top of funnel syndication of entertaining stuff that just gets views. But there's no like depth there at all. it's almost just like a real transient sort of what about instagram is instagram kind of like an ego type kind of weird kind of everyone seems to be on it it's kind of like a home page see i'm really enjoying it and making on there and also but also i think instagram is more uh it's a slightly it's like a highbrow tiktok basically i think it's like it's for people who don't want to just mindlessly scroll they want something a little bit more intentional yeah but it's almost like a more intentional version of tiktok it's not too removed from it right so you have more cinematic short form you'll have you know reels that are more you know news based but everything has to look a bit nicer yeah a bit more aesthetic i still think it still has an element though of the brain rot and like i've there's a there's a few people on there who i i follow and i get value from and i could tell you their names but there's a bunch of others who i follow and i like their stuff but i have no idea like what their name is but also i'd say on instagram i only use it really Again When you become more of an analyst Yeah I don't go on Instagram To Like Really Like consume I'll be on there every now and then I go on there to see What's working What's doing numbers I don't really I couldn't tell you the last time I like really loved Spent loads of time on Instagram And I thought that was really valuable I spend more time on YouTube YouTube's the one place that I'll watch All sorts of stuff I'd love your take On Maybe there's not that many creators out there but is there an even bigger opportunity here with like your traditional celebrities tv presenters who have been on tv and they're now maybe like taking baby steps into podcasting and like but it feels like there's not really anyone there who's made the jump to like youtube first creator they're the baby step or like the medium step is podcast but there's a massive there's a money, time, mindset.

1:14:56Jordan Schwarzenberger:Money being, you know, it's an investment in something which might not materialize for five years. And you don't really want brands around it for a while. You want to make it organic and raw until you get sponsors. So that's one. So who has the money? Who's willing to invest in a new channel or thing? Secondly is time. They're often time poor, generally speaking, or they, you know, they're not used to being a creator. So like, and then mindset is that, do they have a creator mindset or do they have a presenter TV mindset? Are they guns for hire or are they actually creative? Because not all presenters and I've worked with a ton of people from traditional TV and media.

1:15:28Jordan Schwarzenberger:They're not actually that creative, right? They're guns for hire. They go in, they do their job, they go home. That's their job. So how do you find those that are able to write scripts, able to be more creative and they're few and far between, really? Comedians have a good shot. Again, comedy could be amazing on, but again, comedians struggle with their own deep insecurities and they're far more fragile as individuals, which often makes them more funny, but they're very self-conscious around success and what are they being funny and do people like them or not and often comedians are generally more attention-seeking right by virtue of what they do they want people to like them and they want to sort of be they want to be loved and that's kind of that's not really the game on youtube and social where like you're going to be hated really or you're not gonna be hated but you might be ignored because your content's not good enough so if you're a big comedian oh that's too exposing i don't want to do that you know so the mindset piece is the biggest hurdle money and time can be overcome but the mindset piece is the biggest hurdle and most presenters and people in traditional linear broadcasting are used to uh not an easy life because it's not an easy job it's difficult but used to uh a creatively simple existence because they're not having to generate ideas and be super creative some yes but not many which is why you've got creators coming in and taking taking the whole industry because they are creative they're producers they're storytellers they're their media marketing and amplification they have the whole package whereas you compare that to a traditional TV presenter from five, 10 years ago or some people today, and maybe they can post the old photo of themselves on Instagram, but what else do they bring?

1:16:56Jordan Schwarzenberger:Not much. So it can be very, um, tricky to make that transition. And we, I, in YMU when I was there, it was trying, we were trying to make that transition and you see only a handful could if, you know, very, very few, maybe they just got into podcasts. Maybe that was it. And that was where it stopped for them. But it's also a generational thing. You know, they haven't grown up with it. they would need to really lean in but yeah the first like big talent also the other thing a lot of the contracts with you know the ant index of the world etc are bound up in exclusivities around these things so you can't just go on youtube because itv or others will look at it as a threat or look at it as a breach of contract so they aren't even maybe free to go and start as they should but you know the more that do and the more that can fight that fight and win the more i think I mean massive opportunity massive but yeah I think a matter of time matter of time for some but not for most awesome Jordan this is so much fun I could go for hours and I think we should do a round two always man always so we'll get we'll get another one in but thanks so much for coming on pleasure thanks for having me man if you enjoyed this episode with Jordan I think you'll love my episode with Daniel Priestley he talks a lot about the power of collaboration exactly what Jordan has done with the Sidemen so if you enjoyed this episode click here to watch it on YouTube or find it on the Creator Playbook's podcast feed.

1:18:12See you in the next one.