Best of Design Matters: Suzan-Lori Parks

0:00This episode of Design Matters originally dropped in April of 2024. I felt like Thomas Jefferson had invited me into his house, and I listened to him, and I listened to Sally. And then you realize, but it's not just history, it's us. From the TED Audio Collective, this is Design Matters with Debbie Millman.

0:30For 19 years, Debbie Millman has been talking with designers and other creative people about what they do, how they got to be who they are, and what they're thinking about and working on. On this episode, Susan Laurie Parks talks about her life and her art. Writing is my love language. When you find yourself in one of my plays, that's me saying I love you. I love you. I don't even know you.

0:56it's likely we all know something about the foundational american story of sally hemmings and thomas jefferson she was his property and she bore six of his children when jefferson died after a 30-year relationship he didn't free her in his will as was often common at the time susan lori parks has staged some of the most important works of contemporary american theater and as a result, she has won nearly every artistic accolade, including a Pulitzer Prize, several Tony Awards, and a MacArthur Genius Grant. Her latest play is a play within a play titled Sally and Tom. In it, she presents the story of Sally Hemings and Thomas Jefferson and explores the complications and contradictions of their relationship with candor, pathos, and a group of phenomenal actors.

1:51Sally and Tom is currently on stage at the Public Theater in New York City. Susan Laurie is also a novelist and a member of the band Sula and the Joyful Noise. Susan Laurie Parks, welcome to Design Matters. Thanks for having me here, Debbie. This is fun. Thank you. Susan Laurie, I know that in addition to all you do artistically, I understand you're also an advanced brown belt in karate. Oh, that's so kind of you to mention, Debbie. Yes, I would say I was an advanced baron belt in karate. It's the tradition of seido karate, traditional Japanese karate. And that was a long time ago. 1996 is when I was, with all the other students, invited to take our black belt test.

2:44And I woke up the next day and said, I need to be doing yoga. And so I happily left the dojo, a lot of good friends there, and started my yoga practice that I've had since then. So I don't know if I'm actually a brown belt, advanced brown belt anymore. I think I'm just a leather belt or a tweed belt. That's what I'm a belt. I'm a hip belt. There you go. You were born in Fort Knox, Kentucky, down the road from Abraham Lincoln's birthplace. Yes. Your father was a colonel in the United States Army, and you spent your early childhood in Odessa, Texas, while your dad served a tour in Korea and two in Vietnam.

3:29How did your family manage while he was away so much? Well, yeah, it's what families do when one of the parents or sometimes both of the parents have to go away and do difficult things. I think Army families or families with one or more parents of the service have organizational principles that other families might not understand. My dad, yeah, my dad served a tour in Korea and then two tours in Vietnam. I wasn't born when he was in Korea, obviously. But when he went to Vietnam, it was the summer of 68, and we were living in California at the time at Fort Ord. He got the assignment. He had to go to Vietnam.

4:13And my parents decided that the smartest thing to do would be to go to West Texas, where my mom is from, and live there. Because a black woman with three small children living alone was not the safest thing to do in 1968. And so we got in a car and we drove, as we often did, to the next place we were going to live. And so we drove down to Odessa, Texas and rented a house down the street from my mom's mom and dad and family and had an amazing time. Loved being in Texas while dad was away in war. And it was it was very intense. And I know my mom now speaks of how worried she was all the time, but she didn't share that with us little small little children.

5:08Your dad was also an avid fan of opera. And when he came home, I understand he would walk around the house lip syncing to Puccini and Wagner. Did that instill in you an early appreciation of opera? Yeah, it instilled in me an early appreciation of the bazaar. You know, my dad was six, four, darker shade of soul, handsome, charismatic, very deep thinker. One of his favorite books was The Inner Game of Tennis, if anybody's read that. It's a brilliant book about how to utilize the capacities of your mind. But yeah, and for fun, yeah, he would play tennis and he would turn on the reel-to-reel back in the day.

5:58That's what a lot of music was on. Turn on the reel-to-reel and have his Wagner or Puccini blaring throughout the house. And he would walk around lip syncing. And it was absolutely fantastic. It was very bizarre and beautiful. I mean, I say, I tell people that my dad wanted to live large in a world that didn't want him to live at all. And that was very moving to me to watch, you know, a guy who grew up very, very impoverished only join the Army because he wanted to go to college. There was no money for him to go to college. And the ROTC was the only way he could go to college. and then, of course, the conflict in Korea and the conflict, all those conflicts that turned into wars happened, and he was kind of swept up in that.

6:51But it was very moving and very beautiful. My mom was a big fan of jazz. She still is a big fan of jazz. All the greats, Ellington and Ella Fitzgerald and Sarah Vaughan and Dave Brubeck, and she would always be trying to teach us how to jitterbug dance. I don't think I ever learned, actually. She still tries to teach me how to go to visit. You also began writing poems and songs and even created a newspaper with your brother titled The Daily Daily. What made you decide to do that? And do you still have any of those issues? You know everything about me. Wow, my gosh, you know everything about me.

7:26No, it was a weird, what made me decide to do that? You know, I'm always a, I just, still today, I mean, and you see it in like 365 days, 365 plays, or plays for the plague year, certainly, where I just look out the window and go, what's going on? You know, and that's what I did as a fourth grader. And we lived in Burlington, Vermont. My dad, returning from Vietnam, took two years away from the Army as was allowed. He got his master's degree. And we lived in Vermont. And I would sit up in our attic and look out the window. There'd be things going on. And I thought, let me write a newspaper called The Daily Daily.

8:14And did you distribute it to your friends or your family? Oh, sure, sure. I mean, there wasn't, you know, we didn't have the photocopying capabilities of distributing things back then. But sure, there was a, I typed it up, you know, on a little manual typewriter and passed it out. You know, it's weird to hand out copies of the news to people who are like, well, that's, you're talking about me there. When I chased my cat across the street, you know, or when I, you know, tried ice skating or when I kissed, you know, Scott Young at the tennis court, you know, whatever. And I would watch all these things.

8:52I was also enamored of the book Harriet the Spy. And Harriet, she did that. She walked around looking for it on my bookshelf. Where is it? Where it is? Louise Fitzhugh. Louise Fitzhugh is the writer. And Harriet the Spy would walk around her neighborhood with a notebook and she'd write down things. And I thought, that's kind of cool. But I also, I loved writing songs. I would make up songs to go along with whatever was on the radio. It was a hobby, a little fun thing I would do. In 1974, you and your family moved to Germany where your father was stationed. And you lived in Frankfurt, Gellnhausen, Oberussel, and in Rutscht, which was a very, very old, small town.

9:38And you attended local schools there from sixth to ninth grade. And you said that when you were living in Germany, you and your family were often the only black people that some people had ever seen live and that people would just stare at you. How did you manage through that experience? Yeah, we lived in Gellhausen. We lived in Frankfurt. We lived in Oberösel. We lived in Herbst. My parents sent us to German schools because they thought that that would be a wonderful experience. And it was. We learned German. I was fluent in German. After about three months, you just inhale the language. That was my experience anyway.

10:20And, yeah, the only black person in the room or the only black person anybody ever seen. It had also happened in Vermont. I remember going to the state fair, the Champlain Valley Fair, it was called. And we walked into the fair. Yeah, the fairgrounds. It was very lovely. And there was a group of people who went, oh! And there I was with my mom. And my mom is a lighter skin complexion than I am. It's hard if you're just listening to this. But in the community, we call it light-skinned. And so Ma's light-skinned. And so they weren't exclaiming about mom, but they were exclaiming about me. And they proceeded to come up to me and pet me.

11:06And I stood very still. Yeah, I stood very still. And, you know, what do you say? Similar things happened in Germany. And more recently, quite honestly, I was in Cambodia at the Temple of Angkor Wat as a tourist with a guide all by myself that I'd gone there. And there I was looking at a beautiful statue. It was gorgeous. Angkor Wat is so amazing. I'm just standing there like, right, magical, totally. And I'm standing there and looking, and then I hear behind me, oh, same kind of, oh, that kind of thing. And I was, you know, kind of alarmed. And I turned around to see what the commotion was. There was a group, there were a group of people.

11:51I later, they later told me through their tour guide that they're a group of people from China. They were all pointing vigorously in my direction. Of course, I thought they were pointing at the statue. And I moved aside so they could get a better look because they had their cameras out. And they rushed toward me and I kept moving aside, realizing all the while that they were running toward me. and they mobbed me and I stood very still. I'd been through this before, you see. You stand very still. And they pet me and they took pictures with me. I put a modest smile on my face and flashed a peace sign and then they went on to look at something else.

12:36How did you keep your composure? I embraced the difficult things. I work to see the humanity in all of us because it's there. What am I going to do? Get mad at some? I mean, I don't know. They'd never seen one of me before. Conversely, I went to Cuba with a wonderful group. I think the MacArthur Fellows. MacArthur Fellows. That's it. Thank you. MacArthur Fellows. And I walked down the street of Cuba in Havana, and everybody, men, women, and children, and are saying, Linda, Linda. And I'm like, yeah, this is where I'm from. So, you know, it's all, it's all good. You just got to keep going, you know.

13:18You came back to the United States just in time for you to finish high school. And despite your love of writing, you had a high school teacher that actually told you that you would never be a writer. Yes. They didn't tell me I would never be a writer. They told me that with my skill set, it might not turn out the way I had hoped. Just to be clear, when I was a student in high school, there was a, I guess you could say, rubric by which one's intelligence or suitability for certain professions was determined. If you wanted to be a writer, spelling was one of those yardsticks, if you will. Maybe that's the right word.

13:58I was never a good speller. So we draw a circle around that. If you can draw a circle around the word spell and then speller and draw a circle around the word speller in your mind. Okay. So remember that. So the teacher, she'd give us, what do you call it? Spelling tests every Friday. Give you the list of words on Monday, give you the test on Friday. I would study really hard because I loved school and I was a good student generally. Every Friday, I'd fail the test because I'd like to make things up. So I was like, oh, that could go like this. That's spelling of that word. You know, it could be like that.

14:46You know, so I'd fail the spelling test. And so in looking at my grades at the end of the year, and I said I wanted to be a writer, she suggested, I think with a certain amount of care, where you might be better suited to science, where my grades were very, very high. It would ace my physics tests, for example. And I said, yeah, that's cool, spelling. So now, all these years later, there are architectural shapes in my plays called spells. And I am a very great speller, actually. I just had to find my own way to do it. So it's cool. You know, it's again, it's like, and the funniest thing I ran into, I was doing a lecture, man, like, I don't know where, somewhere, Illinois, maybe about 15, 20 years ago.

15:41No, maybe 10 years ago. And a former classmate from that school came up to me, and his name was Steve. And he said, oh, my God, SLP. You mean she told you not to be a, that you shouldn't be a writer because you're such a lousy speller? And I said, yeah, bro, that's how it went down. And he said, she told me the same thing. And I said, well, what did you become? He said, well, he's a medical doctor, so he's doing all right, too. You also started playing guitar in high school as well and fell in love with it. Did you have thoughts at that point of potentially becoming a musician? Yeah, I had started playing piano as a kid and violin as a kid in Vermont.

16:29After Dad came back from Vietnam, they had a little money saved, Mom and Dad, and they spent all of it on a baby grand piano. That's how much they loved music. They wanted music in the home. And we took piano lessons, and I enjoyed piano lessons. We all did. And I also gravitate to the guitar. I was just telling a friend today that there was a show on PBS or something. I think it was Pete Seeger had a show. Maybe it was called Hootenanny or something. Maybe I'm just making that up. But Pete Seeger had a show, and he would invite artists, musicians, onto his show. And I believe he had Libba Cotton on his show, Reverend Gary Davis on his show, and he himself, of course, played the banjo brilliantly.

17:16and I would watch that show and think, oh, wow, now there's something to do. And again, I was always making up little songs to go along with whatever was on the radio. But yeah, it was in high school. Before high school, I actually think I started playing the guitar. And then, yeah, it was at a time before MTV and all the, you know, the internet and all that, where if you didn't see something yourself, it was hard to believe it was actually happening. You know, you had all these people around the world who'd never seen a living, breathing black person before. And you had all these people around the world who'd never seen many black people playing the guitar or the banjo.

18:00And so the assumption was that black people didn't play the guitar, which I was told by my black and white friends alike. You were told that you couldn't do an awful lot of things as you were growing up. I know, I know. The road is littered with things that I've been told not to do. Or, you know what? How about take this path? And I really do take the note. I was a science major in college to start with. And then I drifted over into the English department because I blame it on Virginia Woolf, so. Yeah, I read that To the Lighthouse really changed your life. Yeah, yeah. I love that book. It's one of my all-time favorites.

18:37Isn't it great? That first page is one of the most beautiful openings of any book, I think. Oh, say something. I don't remember the first page. I don't remember. Was it Mrs. Ramsey said it was going to be fine? It's going to be fine. And I just love that. It's going to be fine. Yeah. I love how she dies and they put it. Virginia will put that in parentheses. I think that's brilliant. Just brilliant. Yeah, that's it. And will it be fine? Will it be fine? and I'm knitting socks for the lighthouse keeper's son. And finally, the woman, the painter whose name is... That I don't remember. That I don't remember.

19:20I can't remember. Oh, I can't remember. We'll remember it by the end. Nobody look it up. I love not knowing things and then just having the uncertainty hang in the air. It's a game. Oh, I hate that. Oh, I love it. I'm just like, you know what? It's negative capability like Keith's talked about. You know, we don't know. It is knowable, but we don't know. And we're just going to like not know from Lily Briscoe. There you go. There you go. Thank you. It comes. It returns. I think, yeah, and I think she's painting and she finally finishes her painting. To the Lighthouse. Yeah, to the Lighthouse was my lighthouse.

19:54How about that? So beautiful. Thank you, Virginia Woolf. Yeah. You started writing again and took a class. You applied to take a creative workshop taught by James Baldwin at Hampshire College. You got in and got to work with James Baldwin alongside 15 other students every Monday afternoon. And I believe you were first introduced to James Baldwin when your parents gifted you his book, The Fire, next time for Valentine's Day when you're in the fourth grade. That's a really interesting gift from a parent. yeah my parents were were people you know again my dad was in the army my mom was a college professor they'd met in college one could say they were very sort of traditional you know dad being in the army they were also quietly radical to send us to german school no american parents white black or other were doing that zero um and then to give me when they when i said you know i'm interested in writing i was sitting under the piano writing my novel and they were like okay well if you're interested in writing here's a book i read a little bit of it god i mean honestly i looked i think i i studied the back cover of the book more than anything because i just would look at his face and be like, wow, here's a writer.

21:22And then, yeah, 10 years later, really, 10 years, 11 years later, something like that, there I was. And he was at the head of this library table at Hampshire College teaching us creative writing. 10 years. That's all it took. You started writing again. And I read this really beautiful paragraph about your experience writing The Wedding Pig. And you said, I was typing as if people were standing near me talking. And I kept thinking, if I turn around, they'll leave. And I just copied down what they were saying. It's been that way ever since. And I'm wondering, since you wrote that and said that, is it still that way for you?

22:09That's lovely. I've forgotten. Yeah, that's exactly what it was. I was in a door in my dorm room. It was around four o 'clock in the afternoon and the sun was setting. So it was, I guess, in the fall. Beautiful. Mount Holyoke College is such a beautiful place. And it's just great academics too. I really enjoyed my time there. And so the sun was setting and I was, yeah, I was writing and, you know, I don't know if you've had this experience, Debbie, where you're writing and you're kind of, it feels like you are digging the ditch. Put the spade in the earth and flip it over your shoulder. I call that torture.

22:54Oh. Well, see, and there you go. I just call it digging. You see, I think I have a high, I think, yeah, I realize just these few minutes talking with you that I have a high tolerance for what most people might call difficult. So anyway, so there I am digging. I would call it doing the work. And then it's as if I'm not digging at all. It's just being dug, you know? That is a great feeling. Yeah, that never happened to me before. Because again, I started as a writer by looking out the window and going, oh, what's happening? Oh, someone's chasing her cat, you know, or kissing the boy by the tennis courts.

23:42That was sort of my way of writing. But now reporting, really, in an interesting kind of weird or voyeurism, a weird kind of way. And now I was being visited. Yeah, it did feel like if I turned around, they would leave. And it has felt like that before. But I think it's stronger now. I can actually tune in when we're in rehearsal and I need a new line. Everything can be swirling around. Or when I need a new verse for a song. And the other day, the guys we were rehearsing in, I wrote a song with just like two chords. And they're like making fun. I mean, all the songs we perform in the band, Sula and the Joyful Noise, I've written.

24:28And I just love them. and the band is very supportive and the band loves them too but they were joking with me about this one because they like to use things on the changes and there weren't enough chord changes and so they're like so I just went home and just wrote a bridge three more verses whatever I came in like here um so yeah it's it's it's sometimes it feels easier to tune in to the channel if you will and I can move my head around with the confidence that they won't leave me. That's beautiful. I call that the zone. It sometimes happens when I'm doing research and hours will go by. I mean, that's one of my favorite parts of doing this show is sort of embodying my guest for the time that I'm working to prepare.

25:19And it's been really fun with you. Oh, cool. Your first produced play was the one-act show, Betting on the Dust Commander, and it debuted at the gas station, which is a bar on Manhattan's Lower East Side, in 1987. And the show ran for three nights. You used an extension cord for the lights-up, lights-down cues and plugged and unplugged the extension cord yourself. Do you still have that extension cord? I not only have the physical extension cord, I have the psychic extension cord because, Debbie, last night, Sula and the Joyful Noise played a fantastic gig at the Francis Kite Club, which is kind of kitty corner across the street from where the gas station used to be.

26:09It's in the same, it's in spitting distance. Wow. And I was hanging out there with one of the owners, Kip Malone, who's a great musician from TV on the radio. And the booker, John Weiss, I said, you know, my first play in New York was like his spinning distance from the gas station. He lives across the street from where that was. We had this milk memory lane. And then he said, if you want more lights on the stage where we were performing last night, he brought out a clip light. And I was like, dude, this is so amazing. So I'm still very connected to that experience. It was cool last night to be there and sort of starting my public musician life for real and having it.

26:58That'd be one of the first places that we performed as a band. You met George C. Wolfe after he came to see your play, The Death of the Last Black Man in the Whole Entire World, a.k.a. The Negro Book of the Dead. And he told you at the time he was going to run a theater and he was going to do your plays. Did you believe him? oh well i i believe the first part that he was going to run a theater oh sure because george c wolf is a genius talented kind righteous brother force of nature kind of person so when he says something now i'm gonna run a theater i said yeah you sure are and i'm gonna do your plays the second part i was like well i don't really you know maybe everybody was telling me that they were going to do my plays well yeah that was after you won the ob yeah for best new american play in 1990 so after that happened in my experience everybody saying we're going to do your play so i didn't you know i didn't really think too much of that part but it sure was exciting when he became artistic director of the public theater and actually started doing my plays uh the america play specifically in 1994 30 years ago i sound like those people were when they saw me uh 30 years ago uh in the martinson theater where sally and tom is now playing it's a bunch of circles people it's just a bunch of circles good circles yeah spirals yeah he also produced and directed your play Top Dog Underdog at the Ambassador Theater.

28:37Is it true that you wrote that play in three days? Mm-hmm. It is true. Do you usually write that quickly? No, not at all. What I did for that one, no, Sally and Tom took 10 years. Part of the, in my experience, the life in the arts is to not trip on things that might trip you up. so oh you're right top dog underdog in three days and so many people think it's oh it's amazing they sound again right or you know sally and tom it took me 10 years people think it's amazing you know it's a what i love about both experiences is that i love the work i love the digging or and the being dug and how you trade sometimes i'm holding the spade sometimes the spirit is holding the spade.

29:30We're getting the work done. It's good. Top Dog Underdog went on to win the Pulitzer Prize in Drama, which made you the first ever African-American playwright to win the award. The New York Times theater critics have since declared Top Dog Underdog the best American play of the previous quarter century and the best since Tony Kushner's Angels in America in 1993. And a revival of the show won both the 2023 Tony Award and the Outer Critics Circle Award. In 2001, you received the MacArthur Genius Award. Susan Laurie, has winning so many awards impacted the way you write or the way you think about your writing or the expectations of your writing?

30:14These are such good questions. The expectation from whom? From me? Yourself, yeah. Oh. No. You know, when you're... Well, you said you were embodying me, So I would think you'd probably be better at answering the question than I would be. What would you answer if you were, if you're, when you were embodying me, say I were, you know. If I were embodying you, I'd be like, no. If I were, if I were speaking as me, I would say everything impacts the feelings that I have about what I do, which is both a good thing and a terrible thing. And both are true. Yeah. Light is a particle in a wave. So both are true.

30:59And yet, my relationship to the awards are right-sized. I win awards that I have done the work for. And it feels right. Top Dog won the Pulitzer. It felt right. Damn good play. Okay. It wasn't a shoddy piece of work. and it lasts, you know, through, you know, my lifetime. The praise for Sally and Tom, you know. Yeah. It's a good one. I can feel when it's good. I've worked on it very diligently and joyfully, joyfully. So much love I've put in that play. So many good jokes. You know, I was actually going to ask you about the humor, but congratulations on what I think might be the best New York Times review of a play of all time that came out a few days ago.

31:58I haven't read it. See, I haven't read it. I haven't read it. Oh my God. And the producers jump up and down. Then I know it's good. And they say it's good. Oh my God. Oh, okay. Oh, shoot. Okay. Someday I'm going to read it. Yeah. I have to tell you, It's actually, it's like orgasmic. Oh, wow. I'm not saying. It really is, I think, the best review I've ever read of anything. It's that good. But in 2023, well, first of all, why did it take, or how did it take 10 years to write Sally and Tom? Well, there's just a lot going on. I mean, there's a lot going on for me. I mean, I was being a mom, and that takes extra wavelengths.

32:45But I just want to go back to I haven't read the review. Yes, things do impact what I write, but not in that kind of like, oh, if people say I'm good, so I'm going to be like worried. It's not that. It's more like I'm very mindful of anything I let in my head or life as much as I can be. and having a kid whose life is, you know, being, oh, TikTok or what have you. You know, I'm just being very mindful about what I let into my head or life as much as I can be. So, yeah, but there's a lot going on. So, you know, because it's a play about people making a play, there are at least 16 characters in the play.

33:28And they play different parts. Yeah. Yes, I'm sorry, Debbie. So there are eight actors, I would say, who play more than one role, and that's by design, and that's, I hope, in the future, you know, that's how the play will be done. Because some of my plays with double casting, people think, oh, it doesn't really, you know, we'll just do it. But it's very, very, very, very, very deliberate and joyful because the character in 1790 gets to experience what the character in 2024 gets to experience and vice versa. So there was just a lot going on. There's a lot going on in that play. There's a lot of, I say, freight to move.

34:06There is a lot of history to process. You could say download. There's a lot of buffering going on. You have to really process a lot of stuff to get to the song of the play, a beautiful song. I felt like Thomas Jefferson had invited me into his house, and I listened to him, and I listened to Sally. And then, oh, there was James also had something to say. Sally's brother. Sally's brother, James. And they all were singing, and of course, other people in the household were singing. and then you realize, but it's not just history, it's us. And we're singing too. And all these stories are beautiful and painful and worth embracing and worth considering.

35:06James Baldwin has this wonderful quote. Darn, let's see if I can remember it. History is trapped in people. No, people are trapped in history and history is trapped in us. Sorry to paraphrase, butchered, but something like that. So the idea that we are trapped in history and history is trapped in us. And this double play, this playmaking, this play. Let's play with this. Let's in a loving way and see what they say when they know that I love them. That's very generous. I stood still while they pet me on the head because I am doing the work capital W for the highest cause make no mistake writing is I say that you know writing is my love language and guess how much I love you when you find yourself in one of my plays whether I intended to write you in like in plays for the plague year or you just connect with something that's me saying I love you.

36:14I love you. I don't even know you. And I feel like that is my work as an artist, to communicate that to people. There's a lot of love in Sally and Tom. And it took a lot of getting out of the way. That's probably what it was, right? There are eight characters, actually 16 characters in multiple time zones all singing this song love letter to america love letter to theater and yeah there's a lot of anger that you have to process there's a lot of shame there's a lot of doubt there's a lot of desire to go there's a lot of that you have to just process that you have to channel that you have to clean it up or or figure it out or sort it buffering when your computer says buffering or when the little color wheel goes around you know that's your computer saying i'm working on it you know um there's a lot of that and i think now as it is now that sally and tom is a diagnostic like if you go to your doctor and you get an annual checkup they run the tests or you take your car into the servicing center they run the diagnostic and they see where so in my experience i've had friends and go to see the play when they say something like but i don't understand why such and such you know why you know k-dub goes back and says hello to his friends after he leaves something like something i said wow that's where you're holding that's where you're clenching or why this happens in act one you know that's why you're clenching I know that because I experienced it as well in the very the very end of the play the gesture that happens between Sally and Tom it wasn't scripted until I saw it for the first time in front of an audience and knew that the gesture had to change and I had been clenching I had been clenching and instead of clenching my fists in earned and unrighteous anger, I open my hand.

38:29And that's Sally's gesture in the play. And I have a spiritual understanding that forgiveness is necessary for freedom to happen. No one said it would be easy, but that's part of the work. So when Sally opens her hand toward the end of the play that wasn't happening in the first couple of performances, definitely, because I didn't want it to happen. Yeah, I mean, I think that being in the audience, I struggled with whether or not she should feel love, optimism, forgiveness for Thomas Jefferson. There's so many contradictions and conflicts that you're sort of trying to process at the same time, in addition to there being so much humor that you want to laugh, but then you're not sure if you should laugh.

39:31And I mean, I know that that's intentional, but there were times when I wanted to say to the person sitting next to me, this isn't funny, but it was, but it was for a different reason. Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. We We bring different experiences to the theater, which makes it such a necessary art form. There are, you know, so many things about theater make it absolutely necessary to the continued positive progressive motion of our culture. But, and just to be very clear, Sally and Tom does not make light of slavery. No. Does not, we are not laughing at enslaved people. We are also not laughing or making a buffoon out of Thomas Jefferson.

40:15light is a particle and a wave sally says to thomas jefferson liar coward i hate you she also says did i love him did i hate him it was both and we have to learn or or continue to exercise the muscle of you know entertaining a multitude of possibilities that's our human superpower, not even human, that's our universal superpower. I think it extends to beautiful creatures like puppy dogs and tables and chairs, where you can just expand your mind, like Scout says, expand your mind. So it's seeing the entirety and the beauty of the entirety. You see both sides, you see all sides. It's not just a play about race relations.

41:09A lot of people, And I think that's why people are moved by it, because there's a Korean-American character in the play who speaks of her experience. There are two guys who fall in love in the play. And so it's not just about heteronormative love, you know, it's us. It's all of us. It works to be all of us as much as it can be. Susan Lurie, there's a bit of dialogue or actually a monologue at the end of Act One. The character of Thomas Jefferson speaks to the audience. And I'm wondering if it'd be OK to read some of that, if I could read some of that. What do you go? I don't know what you're going to.

41:47What is it that you're going to read? I'm Thomas Jefferson and I owned people. I own them. Contemplate for a moment, if you will, the depth of what that means, unquote. He tells us that at Monticello, there were more than 600 enslaved people and that on his deathbed, he didn't free them. He tells us about Sally. I was in my 40s when I met her. She was just 14. Hate on me. Go ahead. I'm Thomas Jefferson. My face is on Mount Rushmore. I am the man. Love me. Hate me. Go ahead. I stand at the intersection of the horrible and the splendid and the dizzy-making contradiction that is all of us. Yeah, that's Thomas Jefferson.

42:32He's standing there telling us some of the things that he did that we might have issue with. He's very kind of upfront about it. And he knows that some people will still honor him and no minds will change. And that's okay. But I think it is important for him as a character because all the characters in the play are on a continuum of freedom. I mean, they're all moving toward freedom. And to get to freedom, you have to pass through forgiveness. And when Mike says in Act 2, forgive me, forgive me, he's speaking for himself and for his character. Yeah. The content of his character, who is Thomas Jefferson.

43:13Yeah. Mike disappoints me in the show. I was surprised at how much he disappointed me. I wanted him to be a better person. I wanted him so badly. Yes, yes, yes. And in that, I think you give him the chance that he needs. One of the centerpiece conflicts in the show is whether or not to cut a monologue performed by James Hemmings, which was Sally's brother. And the company's financier wants Luz, the playwright, and also the actress also plays Sally, to eliminate it because he thinks it's too woke. He also wants Sally and Tom to have a more optimistic ending. Do you think that that ever could be possible?

44:05Oh, I mean, the ending that they have in the beginning of the play of Sally and Tom, they discard. Yeah. So I think optimism is necessary, but optimism, you know, they say, Mike and Luce say in their first scene together, when Luce says, this is not a love story, and Mike says, it's more like a truth and reconciliation story. She says exactly. And I think truth and reconciliation, the possibility of forgiveness and the possibility to look at your history and wrestle with it as a way to go forward is a superpower. And I think we can use more of it these days. Given the sold-out run at the Public Theater, given the remarkable reviews, do you and the producers have plans to bring it to Broadway?

45:02oh since opening i've been so focused on my band uh but uh i haven't had conversations about taking it to broadway not that the conversations are not happening it took 10 years to write i poured so much love and intellectual musculature or whatever you call it muscles i put so much love into that play. I'm so pleased that the transmission is happening, which is really an artist's delight. I'm very grateful. I want to talk to you about your band, Sula and the Joyful Noise. I believe your husband is also in the band. He is. He's been playing. Tell us a little bit more about how you started the band and more about the kind of music you play.

45:53Yeah, you could call it neo-soul or rock and soul music. And you write all the music. I write all the words and music. I write all the songs. We have drums and bass and vibraphones, vibraphone player, vibes and synth he plays, and then trumpet and then horns and lead guitar. This is a great group of musicians. I will release the music as I feel like it's time. I'm not in a hurry. I just like playing it live. There's some great tunes, and I'm very proud of them. My last question, when is your next novel going to be coming out? I know. Soon, soon, soon. Yeah, Random House. Yep. It's in the works.

46:44I'm working on it. Wonderful. Thank you so much, Susie. Susie and Laurie Parks, thank you for making so much work that matters. and thank you for joining me today on Design Matters. Thank you, Debbie. Susan Laurie Parks' play, Sally and Tom, is currently playing at the Public Theater in New York City. You can read lots more about Susan Laurie Parks and Sula and the Joyful Noise at SusanLaurieParks.com. And that's Susan with a Z, not an S, sort of like Liza. This is the 19th year we've been podcasting Design Matters and I'd like to thank you for listening. and remember we can talk about making a difference we can make a difference or we can do both i'm debbie melman and i look forward to talking with you again soon design matters is produced for the ted audio collective by curtis fox productions the interviews are usually recorded at the masters in branding program at the school of visual arts in new york city the first and longest running branding program in the world the editor-in-chief of design matters media is emily Wyland.