Betty Buckley

0:00For years I've been saying, I feel like I'm a really fast, talented little racehorse. They keep taking her out every morning and breezing her and saying, damn, she's fast, but they never let her run the big race, right? So I just felt like, when is my big race coming? And finally with Sunset, I felt like everything I had ever learned, everything, and every body of experience I'd ever gained, all came together in this one role.

0:33from the ted audio collective this is design matters with debbie milman

0:40on design matters debbie talks with some of the most creative people in the world about what they do how they got to be who they are and what they're thinking about and working on on this episode betty buckling talks about her longevity as a performer it's about physical strength mental strength, mental focus, and emotional facility.

1:06She played Grizabella in the original Broadway production of Cats and won a Tony for it. In the Andrew Lloyd Webber musical Sunset Boulevard, she played Norma Desmond in productions in New York and London and was nominated for an Olivia Award for that. New York Magazine appointed her the voice of Broadway. She's a Theater Hall of Fame inductee. And received the Lifetime Achievement Award from the American Songbook Association. I am talking about none other than Betty Buckley, an artist of astonishing range and longevity. She has been working steadily and memorably for nearly six decades now in film, television, music, and theater.

1:53and I'm going to try to talk as much as possible about her vast body of work in today's show. Betty Buckley, welcome to Design Matters. Hello, Ms. Millman. So nice to meet you. Thank you. Thank you. My first question is this. Betty, is it true your mom once told you to put on lipstick because you look too much like a ranch woman who didn't care? Yeah, I was in New York City when 9-11 happened, And I, like many of my artist friends, musicians and such, chose to move back to your home roots. In the months following 9-11, I would wake up every morning and think, I forgot to get my cutting horse, which was my dream since I was like a kid and first found out about the sport of cutting horses, which is this big international sport based on the tradition in the Old West of cowboys separating one cow from a herd of animals.

2:53cows. And the cutting horse was the specialist in the ranchers herd of horses, gorgeous athletes and amazing horses to watch. And the rider and the horse become like a dance pair in this competition. So I'd always wanted to do that. And my dream was to go to New York and become successful in show business and have a ranch and ride cutting horses. So after 9-11, I realized that I'd forgotten to do that. I moved back to Texas. I bought this cutting horse. I connected with one of the top trainers in the sport. But anyway, when I moved to the ranch and I was riding my horse and stuff, I would go see my mother.

3:34I would come in with my baggy t-shirt and my jeans and my boots and spurs and all dirty and everything. One day she met me on the porch. She goes, Penny Lynn, you need to put some makeup on. You need to put on some lipstick. You're starting to look like one of those ranch women who don't care what they look like. That was a classic Betty Bob book, my mother, Betty Bob Buckley. You began singing at two years old and dancing at three. Your mother was a performer turned journalist and your father was a poet turned engineer, an army man who discouraged a life in show business. How did that contradiction shape who and how you wanted to be.

4:15It was tough because my father is so funny. He was madly in love with my mother, who was known as the jitterbug queen of Texas Tech University. She was a great singer-dancer and had wild red curly hair. And when he was in the Air Force as a young cadet, he was stationed near Big Spring, and my mother was at Texas Tech. And so he met her, and he fell in love with her, and then he went off to World War II as a bombardier. came back, married my mother, and she got pregnant with me. But he told her she couldn't be a singer dancer anymore. And so my aunt was a dance teacher and had also been a professional dancer.

4:55My father was very opposed, but I had the dance lessons because of the accessibility of my aunt. And I was always that little girl who picked things up really quickly. And I would overhear them speaking about me saying, don't tell her how talented she is, or it'll go to her head, which always confused me. I never understood what that was about. So my mother took me to see my first musical when I was 11 at Casa Manana, our regional theater, which was Pajama Game with the original Bob Fosse choreography. And when I saw the number, the classic vintage Bob Fosse number with the girl in the black suit and bow tie and black tie dance shoes and the two boy dancers doing Steam Heat, I just had this epiphany.

5:40It was my first time having an epiphany. And I just felt this rush of energy up through the top of my head and looking back at me in a way saying, that, that's it. That's what you're going to be doing for the rest of your life. And I was like, what? What is that? Shortly after that, it turned out that the choreographer and the lead dancer on that show were a couple, Ed Holliman and Larry Howard. And they were protégés of Bob Flossie. And they decided they were tired of traveling and touring. And so they moved back to Fort Worth where Ed originally was from. So I, in that same time period, I was in seventh grade at Monty and junior high school.

6:19And I wanted to be in the talent show. I told my mother, I came home from school, I said, I want to learn steam heat and I want to audition for the talent and she was like oh wow Betty Lynn you know I just found out that these people that you admire so much opened a dance studio in Fort Worth and she called them and said my daughter wants to learn steam heat and they said well can she dance she said yes she studied dance since she was three and so my mom took me to meet Ed Holliman and Larry Howard and they said can you sing I said yes. And they said, can you dance? I said, yes. They said, well, sing this.

6:57I got steam heat. I got steam heat. So I did. And they said, no, no, sing it as loud as you can. So I was like, I'll never forget the moment. I was so thrilled. Somebody gave me permission to be as loud as I can be. So I walked literally to the back of the studio and sang it with my giant voice. And They jumped backwards and were delighted and took me on as their student. And they taught me the original Bob Fosse hat tricks and the whole bit. So I got into the talent show, and I'll never forget that moment. I finished the song and the dance, and the audience was breathless, silent, breathless.

7:38And I was like, you know, and that's what you want to achieve. It's not just about getting the applause. surely the applause and the standing ovation is fantastic but the moment that's the optimal moment is breathless silence before the standing ovation that's like I live for that I'm like wow and so I ran off stage and Mr. Boswick the principal loves to remind me when when I've encountered him through my life he's like do you remember what you said I came running off and said oh, we're having fun tonight. And he sent me back for another curtain call. And that was it. That was the beginning. I was known then in the school, as opposed to sliding along the walls and being, you know, a target for bullying.

8:25I was then, oh, that's little bitty Betty Buckley with the giant voice. And then my mother kind of took over and became, she doesn't like it when I say this, but she was definitely a stage mother. But she was sneaking you out of the house. I mean, And your dad didn't want you to be a performer. Yeah, that's right. At 15 years old, you were already performing professionally in Gypsy and West Side Story and where you lived and later performed up to 16 shows a day at Six Flags. But you chose to major in journalism at Texas Christian University. But a chance performance with the band, Your Father's Mustache, led to industrial gigs in cities in Atlanta and San Francisco.

9:13How did that phase of your life help you make the leap from journalism to full-time performance? Well, my dad wouldn't let me. He said the only righteous calling for a woman is to be a wife and mother. But my mother was a journalist and was a very talented woman, very smart and good writer and stuff. And she pursued all of that. She started her own newsletters. She was just a really very creative, passionate lady. So he said it was okay for me to be a journalist because whatever work I do would be in support of my husband to be. So I witnessed the inequities and how women were treated in that ridiculous, patriarchal, demeaning culture that in our current regime, they seem to be so hell bent on returning to, which is so insane.

10:12So anyway, I went to TCU on a journalism scholarship. But fortunately, my freshman year, the head of the theater department at TCU, Dr. Jack Cogdall, had known my mother. They had done some shows together at Texas Tech. And so my mother told me to introduce myself to him as the professor of our survey of theater course my freshman year. And so I told him who I was, and he took an interest in me and found out that I was this talented kid that was already working. And he created a theater minor program so that I could participate in the theater and then picked a show for me every single semester that I could do.

10:57You know, like I played Megan Brigadoon my senior year. I played Mrs. Antrobus in Skin of Our Teeth. And he just took a special interest in me. And so I was actually spending more time in the theater department than in the journalism school. And the journalism school, you know, granted me this scholarship and were expecting me to be the editor of the school paper, the SCIF at TCU my senior year. But I was never around. And I remember them this fateful day where they called me in to meet with the heads of the program in the journalism school, saying how disappointed they were that I wasn't participating appropriately for my scholarship.

11:38And I was like, but I have play rehearsals. Yeah. So my junior year, I was recruited to be in the Miss Fort Worth pageant. And I won Miss Fort Worth. And then I had to, that summer, compete in the Miss Texas pageant. God. And I was quote unquote Miss Congeniality and I won second runner up to Miss Texas. But the producer of the Miss America pageant was there. And they called me after the Miss Texas pageant and said, you know, we really think you're a very talented girl and we would like to invite you to be one of the guest entertainer. In the old tradition of the Miss America pageant, there were four girls.

12:22I think it was four or five girls that sang and danced to tie the evening, the theme of the show together. And usually that honor was reserved for former Miss Americas or former quote unquote state queens. And it was the first time they were considering inviting a city winner who didn't have a state title. and yet they gave me a lot of opportunities, which, you know, scholarships and stuff like that, which I'm grateful for in retrospect and in the momentary honor of it, but I am by no means and never was cut out to be a beauty queen. It was just ludicrous. And yet the fall of my senior year, I was invited to be this guest entertainer at the Miss America pageant and I was on American television And this woman who was part of the pageant, a dance teacher person, a very nice lady, called a friend of hers who was an assistant to a big agent at Ashley Famous, which is now was an ICM and has now merged with another company.

13:30And they saw me on TV and called me when I was in Atlantic City and asked me to fly to New York. My mother was there as my chaperone. And so I flew to New York right after the pageant and auditioned for these agents, a room full of like 12 agents. And this superstar agent, Eric Shepard, jumped up and said, sign her, and walked out of the room. So this wonderful man named Roger Hess became my responsible agent. And he's like, what do you want to do? And I said, well, I have to go back and finish school this year. And he's like, well, when you finish school, we want you to come to New York and your contract will start.

14:09So I was like, okay. So I went back and I finished college. I had my first love affair, which was devastating. So I went on that summer with a Miss America for like a month to Korea and Japan on a USO tour. And we were supposed to go to Vietnam. It was the summer of 1968. And our tour got detoured because some young performers were killed in Vietnam. And so we were detoured to all of the military hospitals in Japan, and then all of the military bases in South Korea. And so I witnessed the results of war for the first time at 21. on. I came back from that tour and everything, my whole inner being was rocked because everything that my dad had taught us about the righteousness of war, and my dad saw everything in black and white.

15:06And for the first time, I was starting to realize the world was filled with shades of gray that were important to understand and account for and acknowledge and to learn how to walk through the minefields of all that. And I was like, Dad, you know, there's no purpose to war. War is horrible. I mean, the things I witnessed in the hospitals, you know, I mean, I'm grateful for the experience in retrospect, but suffice it to say, I went through a period of months with, you know, PTSD and undiagnosed, obviously, because nobody knew about that stuff. But I would wake up shaking and crying. I didn't want to do anything.

15:47I certainly didn't want to go to New York. So I was lucky. I had this job at the Fort Worth Press, and I was just going to keep that job and keep my head down. But Roger Hess kept calling, and he said, you've got to come to New York. We all believe in you so much. And I said, I can't. So I was fried, basically. I was just emotionally undone. He came to Dallas with this show that you mentioned, with your father's mustache and this BF Goodrich industrial show starring Flip Wilson, the comedian. And he invited my mother. Roger Hess is the responsible person. I love him to this day. We're still friends.

16:25My mother and I went to see the show and he told them that I was the singer. And so Your Father's Mustache brought me up on stage. And the only song I knew, the key that I sang it in was You Made Me Love You. So I sang it with the band and the buyer at BF Goodrich was there. And they put me in the show and paid, you know, offered me a lot of money to fly into these various destinations to do this show for them. And in every case, I'd pretend to be a girl sitting in the audience that they'd bring up some local girl that would then, you know, bring the audience to this rousing experience. And so it was certainly more money than I was being paid at the newspaper.

17:07And my dad couldn't deny the money. And it was just a weekend job. So I went to Atlanta, San Francisco, Chicago. The last stop was Philadelphia. And so Roger calls me. He says, well, you can train it in from Philadelphia, and I've got you another industrial show for Gimbel's department store. It's only for six weeks. So you'll try New York, and if you don't like it, you'll go home. And so I trained it in from Philadelphia. I mean, I called my newspaper and was going to be gone for another six weeks. and they're like, fine, fine. Everybody in Fort Worth was like, yes, Betty, please go to New York, go to New York, everyone, which was so sweet, you know, except for my dad.

17:49My dad was like, you will never wait tables, you will never do this, you will never do that. And fortunately, I had this guarantee of a job. So I went and I moved into the Barbizon Hotel for Women. And I was traveling with my little dog, this little Yorkshire Terrier. And I was so cold, because it was January 1969, and I didn't know how to dress for that kind of cold weather, you know, layers of clothing and scarves and hats. I knew nothing about that coming from Texas. And so I called Roger. I said, well, I'm here. And he said, you have 15 minutes. Take a cab. Go to the American Theater Laboratory downtown.

18:30You have an audition. But he didn't explain. He said, just take your music and go. So I went to the American Theater Laboratory and I sang for this group of, I was the last girl to audition on the last day of auditions for the new musical 1776, which had been in rehearsal. But the young woman, she was a classic soprano, beautiful lady that was playing Martha Jefferson, this kind of beautiful lyric soprano interpretation. And that section of the show wasn't working for them and they didn't know why, but they knew they needed something different. So they opened auditions again, and I just happened to be in town.

19:08And so I sang for them my pageant song, which was Rose of Washington Square, which I'd learned when I did Six Flags Over Texas in the campus review. this brilliant showman named Charlie Meeker with this phenomenal arranger had written this beautiful kick-ass chart of rows of Washington Square of all things, which just, you know, killed every time I sang it because it was just so great. And so I did that. And these people were like, they were falling out of their chairs and they were like, who are you? And I'm like, Betty Lynn Buckley. And they're like, where are you from? I'm like, Fort Worth, Texas.

19:49And I had a really thick Texas accent. They said, well, when did you get to town? I said, today. And they were like, today? And I'm like, yes. So they kept me there for two hours. And they taught me the song. And they had me read the scene, which is this great scene with John Adams and Benjamin Franklin. And that was it. And I went home and I called my mother. I said, something great's going to happen. I can just feel it. And the next day I was in rehearsal and shortly, a couple of weeks later, we went to New Haven and opened there in a snowstorm. And then we went to Washington and tried it out there.

20:25And then we came to New York and we were the big hit that spring. So that was my beginning. And it was all very fortuitous. Well, it sounds fortuitous, but it also is really magical. I mean, it's like a Hollywood movie. You come to New York and 15 minutes later, you're auditioning for a Broadway play. You get the part and you're actually on Broadway within months. You've talked about how you actually weren't at all surprised to get the role of Martha Jefferson. What gave you that certainty? Because that also happened when you auditioned for Cats. You didn't get that role initially, but then you knew that they'd be back.

21:06Where does that knowledge come from? Where does that sense of? I don't know. You know, that's what I mean when I say fortuitous. I've always felt this kind of divine destiny, if you will. I definitely have witnessed both before, from the time I was younger to now in retrospect even, there is definitely, I'm definitely on a spiritual path. And I'm definitely, I think, on the planet with a specific purpose, which has become refined as I've grown and matured. But I was given a certain gift, and I worked very, very hard with the best teachers in the business. I also was born with an extra sense of knowing of what to listen to and what not to listen to, because I've encountered teachers along the way that didn't know what they were talking about.

21:54And I knew not to listen to that. But when I found my teachers, and it was a quest to find the right people, And I was fortunate in 1776, for example, I was working with these wonderful actors who sang but were not necessarily singers per se. And they mentored me, these really wonderful men, Howard Da Silva, who was a genius, and William Daniels and Paul Hecht, who played John Dickinson. And they literally would talk to me and say, look, Betty, you're very talented. You have this, this, and this. This is what you're good at. This is what you need to learn. And this is where you need to go to learn it.

22:34And I would listen because I wanted, when I was 13, I would say, I was singing and I would practice with the recordings of all the great lady singers. My mother had a huge record collection of the great lady singers. Judy Garland, Carnegie Hall, I could mimic every single note she sang. And Ella Fitzgerald and Della Reese and Nancy Wilson and Sarah Vaughan. And I studied all of them and would mimic them. Literally, that's how I learned to become a better singer. And I should have studied music, but that wasn't in the budget, you know. Well, you taught yourself. Yeah, I'm a musician and I have a really good ear and I hear music.

23:21I know what I want to hear around me that inspires me to sing. That's learned. I was a huge fan of jazz musicians and jazz instrumentalists. They've changed my life. Well, the first album that you recorded, which didn't actually come out until 2007, you recorded it in 1969, and it's titled 1969. I was listening to it, and I was astounded by the versatility, how many other languages you were singing in and the range of genres. You know, the genres, I've always been, like, I love music and I love all kinds of, I'm not like a Broadway traditionalist in that sense, you know, I don't, like, I love the Broadway songbook, but I love this, you know, the great American songbook and I love contemporary singer-songwriters and I'm always on the quest for a beautiful story song that I can help eliminate what the writers intended and the composer intended.

24:16So all that I've achieved is as a result of brilliant teachers, brilliant spiritual teachers, brilliant, my voice teacher of 19 and a half years, Paul Gavard, my current teacher, Joan Lader, and wonderful psychologists that have helped me gather my own inner resources and give myself permission to be the artist that I've become. But I knew that I wanted to bring to the American musical theater a level of truth-telling in performance that didn't quite exist before I came along. I mean, you saw glimpses of it with Barbara Harris and Barbara Streisand, but it wasn't the norm. And it was my mission to do that.

25:08And I studied for years and years and years with the best teachers in the business. and practiced and practiced and practiced until I could do that. And then Cats was in that little 13-minute roll with that one powerful song. Finally, that opportunity came along where all the skills that I'd been gathering for all those years came together and coalesced in the opportunity to deliver this one song and make this through story in this spectacle musical make sense. And that was my job assignment was make it make sense and stop the show. And it was a huge weight, you know, of learning how to do that.

25:51But the years of gathering information, gathering craft, perfecting craft and getting to the point, finally in that opportunity. And I felt like when Cats opened and I was able to achieve that, that was like my master's thesis. And the same year, the film Tender Mercies came out, which I'd shot the fall after Eight is Enough was done, the TV show that I did for four years. We shot it in the fall. It came out following Cats opening. So that was a big year for me. you know, in the screenplay by Horton Foote, which won the Oscar and a performance opposite Robert Duvall, he won the Oscar as best actor, where I played a country Western, alcoholic country Western singing star.

26:33And finally, all the skills I've been gathering were being called on for that one role. So much of being able to deliver in a performance is about the opportunity you're given with the material of the character to play. So I have a lot of technique about how to share levels of human psychology behind why people do what they do. That has been learned and practiced. But I wanted to bring that kind of work to the musical theater. And then I did. And then after that, Sunset Boulevard was the next place where the role had enough to... Sunset Boulevard was so great when I got the call to do it in London because it was like for years I've been saying, I feel like I'm a really fast, talented little racehorse.

27:27They keep taking her out every morning and breezing her and saying, damn, she's fast, but they never let her run the big race, right? So I just felt like when is my big race coming? And finally with Sunset, I felt like everything I had ever learned, everything and every body of experience I'd ever gained all came together in this one role. I want to ask you one thing about Cats before we talk about Sunset Boulevard. When you auditioned, you weren't accepted. You were rejected for the role, but you knew you'd be back. They wanted somebody that radiated death and dying. and six months later you got called back and trevor nunn asked you to sing memory three times um did you sing it differently in each of the renditions what was he looking for who knows what he was looking for it was like crazy when i first auditioned for them um my agent who was in america you know she worked for an american company but she was british she was her name was Joanna Ross, really nice lady.

28:33She said, yeah, she gave me that quote, you radiate health and well-being, they're looking for someone that radiates death and dying, because Elaine Page had played it in London, and she killed with it. She was great. I think they had this prototype in their head about this diminutive person, you know, with this plaintive Edith Piaf cry of the heart voice. anyway I told Joanna I said they'll be back and six months later she called me and she said oh yeah okay you're right they want to see you again I said I told you and so I went in because I knew who my peer group was I knew who was capable of it in New York there was all this press about who wanted to play Grizabella and I mean everybody everybody did every share wanted it a player.

29:20But I knew I had the skill set and I knew I was ready to go. I knew it was all, it was my deal. I just felt it. Plus I was shopping for a new apartment and everywhere I would go, I would see all this cat memorabilia. I went, I remember going into this apartment on the Upper West Side and it was just filled with cat stuff. And I was like, this is my show. It was just like, it was so stupid, but I really felt this prescience about it. You know, I knew that they were coming back. And so I had my call back six months later and I went in as a winter garden and they were all in the audience. Trevor came to the lip of the stage, you know, and I, I sang memory and he had me sing it again.

30:04And so by the third time through, I literally felt I was inside out. I felt like there's not a molecule of my body and mind and heart that they didn't just experience. So either that does it for him or it doesn't. And so I finished singing and they just still were, he was standing there looking really quizzical. And I was like, Mr. Nunn, can I speak to you? And he said, sure. He comes down to the edge of the stage and I said, listen, I know you've auditioned everybody who's anybody that can do this part. And I know who's out there. I know who my peer group is. And there's a lot of people that can play this part as well as I can, but nobody can do it better.

30:46And it's my turn. Well, nobody could sing it better. Nobody has ever sung it better. Thank you. It's not even human. It's that incredibly out of this world. I also want to talk to you about Tender Mercies because both Cats and Tender Mercies came out right around the same time. Tender Mercies was written by Horton Foote. It was directed by Bruce Beresford, two artists really known for their kind of quiet intensity. How did their approach influence the way you prepared for playing Dixie Scott, a renowned singer and also an alcoholic? Well, you know, I had said I'd been studying to learn how to play really emotionally, psychologically authentic characters.

31:34And it was like Horton Foote was this king of American theater, You know, plus the fact he used to write these screenplays for like Playhouse 90 and all these great in the 50s TV shows that featured some of these brilliant actresses, Geraldine Page and Kim Stanley and stuff. And I mean, the guy who worked with all of them. And I was literally living like a monk in Hollywood in order to survive this TV show. It is Enough was like a school of big business, show business of craziness. And then I got this call from Fred Roos, who is this big producer, film producer, and one of the major casting minds in Hollywood of all time.

32:18And he said, I'm sending you a script. It's by Horton Foote. It's going to be directed by Bruce Beresford. And, you know, it's a great role. It's a country western star, alcoholic, opposite Robert Duvall. And they asked me to recommend a really good actress who could sing country western. And I gave them one name. And he said, go get the part. And I was like, what? And so I was hugely grateful. And then he sent me the script. And I read the script. And I started crying. I was sobbing alone in my hotel room. It's really one of my favorite movies of all time. It's an incredible script. And for the first time, I understood that kind of writing.

32:58so I went in and I met with Bruce Beresford and he said you've come highly recommended he said are you a good actress and I said yes I am I get it's safe to say at this point that I'm a good actress he said can you sing I said yes and he said can you sing country western I said yes I'm from Texas that's how I started learning to sing and so he said do you want this part and I said yes. And he says, it's yours. And I was like, what? I mean, it's the best and easiest audition I've ever had. You mentioned the sort of factory conditions of Eight is Enough and the inner strength that it took to sustain playing that role for 102 episodes.

33:42On Eight is Enough, I paid heavy dues. I mean, heavy dues. It was like graduate school for big business, show business and in so many ways, just pure torture. But I survived it and I got better, which was my goal. And I kept studying throughout. And I would fly back to New York every six weeks for a voice lesson. And then the opportunity, I came out of that four-year indentured servitude, so to speak. Yeah, you've described it as a factory. Yeah, it was a factory. And so I had no life but that. It was more than that. They were not kind, caring producers. They were mean. And I had to hire big gun attorneys and stuff to get them to leave me alone because they were abusive and awful.

34:29And it was a nightmare as far as I was concerned. But I think I played the game pretty well and learned a lot and survived it. But the most important thing was I used it as a school. And so when I came out of that, I had this technique that I could say was definitively my own and has carried me through everything. I mean, it's an amazing, amazing technique, this meditation practice that I do. And when I feel absolutely helpless or so highly adrenalized, like I tell my students, don't ever say you're afraid, but, you know, tantamount to massive fear, this highly adrenalized state and almost incapacity of that size of energy that's required to do that level of work on stage or even in film.

35:29How did you sustain the emotional intensity that was required for Norma Desmond, who you were playing live on stage, stage um especially in the scenes where she moves from grandeur into delusion though i was i mean it was like a dream role for a serious young actress you know i was just like whoa it was like a ride a really an amazing ride and you know it's all in the preparation obviously and then your collaborators create this like you know the costumes and the the choreography and the staging and your team. And it's like, once you learn all of that in this program of the quote unquote, Norma Desmond and Sunset Boulevard program, that takes obviously time.

36:16And fortunately, I had the time to do that kind of work. And a lot of research, you know, I read all these biographies and memoirs and autobiographies of silent film stars and stuff. And so I had a very specific idea of how I wanted to interpret the show, and it was very different than they were doing it and the way they had decided it should be done. I was pretty hell-bent on doing that interpretation. And fortunately, I had this brilliant psychologist named Aracelia Pearson Brock. She's the reason I got the job, because one of my biggest faults as a person is I'm outspoken. And, you know, I was kind of raised to be that.

37:01Why do you consider that to be a fault? Well, it's not, but it is. In show business, it can be. I mean, I've learned a lot. I thought when I was a young performer and I was meeting all these like heavy hitters in the business, you know, directors, producers, choreographers, actors of renown, I thought all those people that I, you know, looked up to and that were masters of their craft would be interested in a young person's, I don't know why I thought this, but I thought they'd be interested to know what I thought about things because I was enthusiastic and young and, you know, energetic and they were, they could have cared less.

37:40And I learned that everyone is hugely insecure, which I didn't know. And that they were just as insecure, if not more so than I am. That was news. And so I didn't realized that my kind of outspoken, rah-rah, Texas girl thing was stepping on that sensitivity and that insecurity. And I didn't know that. And when I went to London for the audition for Sunset, you know, I went to see it and I knew, this sounds very arrogant and I don't mean it that way, but I knew what was wrong with the show and I knew how to fix it. And And I saw the first time I saw it was with Patty's understudy. Patty was on vacation.

38:24And then I saw it a second time with Patty. You're talking about Patty LuPone? Yes. I saw it a second time when I went back and I was in rehearsal for it. But they gave me a week in London, set me up with an MD every day for several hours a day to teach me the whole score before my audition. It was very challenging because I had worked for them in Cats, you know, Andrew and Trevor. And it was, you know, pretty diminishing to my ego, too. But that's okay. You know, I was like, okay, I'm going to go get this. And so they decided they were going to change the keys in the show from the original high.

39:03And, you know, girls with high belt voices like Patti LuPone and I, well, certainly when I was younger, we all had a certain pride in that ability to do what we could do. It's like being a gymnast with certain skills, you know, and they're like going to take your skills away. And because Frank Rich had given Patty this, he wrote basically in that review a letter to Andrew saying, I'm going to kill the show if you bring this in because she's, he basically said, you know, Marma Desmond would have a darker voice. She doesn't have a high belt Broadway girl voice. so they cast Glenn Close in the role in LA and lowered the keys because Glenn can sing but she's not that kind of singer and then Patty was in this great huge turmoil with Andrew because he broke her contract and so I came into the scene on that and I was hopeful that they wouldn't make a decision about Broadway until they had seen what I was going to do naive of me to think that but And so they decided they were going to revamp the British production, close it down for eight weeks, put everybody back in rehearsal, make the changes they'd made in L.A., hire the new Norma, and put everything in these lower keys.

40:18And I was like, and so the MD is like, you've got to sing it in these keys. And I'm like, no. And they're like, yeah. And I'm like, no. So I learned it in their lower keys, but I also kept rehearsing the higher keys as well. If you can imagine trying to get those time periods to work out for these sessions, it was expensive investment, I'll tell you. And I had this statue of wing victory in my hotel room by the window, which I kept focusing on. I was like, because I'm going to get this. I'm going to get this show. I don't care what gauntlets they make me run through. The day comes my audition, and my audition was an hour and nine minutes long.

40:58I couldn't believe it. It took every ounce of focus and meditation practice to go through that audition. And then as a test, after I did the lower keys, he came up and he said, because of the movie and Carol Burnett's interpretation, everyone does Norma Desmond. It's in the zeitgeist, you know, the Norma Desmond imitation. So the relationship with Joe Gillis is not viable. I want the audience to feel yuck. And I'm like, my late 40s. And I'm thinking, no, no fucking way. No fucking way will the audience feel yuck about my relationship with Joe Gillis. But I said, okay. So I did the song again. And then he came back and he did it again, and just pressured me.

41:51And I was like, later, I think they were really trying to get me to like, break the decorum and say, guys, you know, look, which I'm capable of doing, but they didn't. So I, you know, took them a week and a half to actually make me the offer after they flew me back to New York. So after about several, the first several weeks, first few weeks of rehearsal, when I was learning the basics, I would go into rehearsal and say, Trevor, Or you know how Medea, the Bhagatabahata, you know, and in the betrayal of the feminine Medea's life, she kills them all. You get that, right? And you know how Medusa in that betrayal then kills them all.

42:34Don't you think it's about the betrayal of the feminine and like you don't hurt Mother Nature in that way? And so he goes, right, show me. And so then I would show him in places in the shelf what I intended. And so he was very generous, and he let me start to give this interpretation little by little by little by little. And it was because of this wonderful psychologist, too, that I didn't destroy myself and the opportunity to share that with him. I tried to share it so carefully so that he could open himself to understand what I was trying to say. And so, mind you, this is my second collaboration with him from Cats to this.

43:18So then we opened, and it was hugely acclaimed, and that was so gratifying. I'll never forget that opening night as long as I live. I felt like I was swimming through a sea of love. It was just unbelievable. And I remember the first ovation after With One Look. The audience was crazy standing ovation. I mean, huge ovations after every one of Norma's big songs. And I came off stage for my costume change, and David Caddick, who is Andrew Lloyd Webber's music supervisor, or was at that time, was standing there in the wings looking like just so they were all so freaking scared, Debbie. It was crazy.

44:02And I was like, dudes, I'm with you. I'm your horse. You trust me. You know, here we go. And so he's standing there and he goes, keep going. And I'm like, because the ovation was so huge that when I finished with one, look, I looked down and then I kind of just looked back up at the audience to acknowledge the applause. And it kept going. And so when I went off stage, he goes, I'm like, of course I'll keep going. What is wrong with you people, right? It was just there was so much at stake for them. Trevor came back three months after we opened in New York. And the audiences were going crazy, which was wonderful.

44:42And it was a matinee. He comes back after the matinee and goes, the audience, the audience. And I said, I told you, I told you. And he goes, the audience. But I knew that, you know, we were at a point of the evolution of our cultural consciousness where we as a culture knew that older women were still valuable, that was being stated in our culture. We were still valuable, that we still had a right to our sexuality. We still had a right to claim our beauty as individuals. And that was the through line of what I was trying to communicate through this tortured young woman who was trapped in time in this huge gilded cage.

45:29that causes her to behave monstrously, but out of genuine feelings. It's not because she was just randomly a monster, but something that was very, very deep and profound in her right to claim herself in a culture that would have her feel otherwise. And I knew that that particular message was very relevant to that moment in our culture. It was 1994 when I first gave that interpretation and then 95, 96 in New York. I was sure of it. And that's another part of what I feel very sure of. There's a part of me that has my fingertips on the pulse of the zeitgeist of the culture at any given time. I care about it very much.

46:24I care about being a contributing communicator to the hearts and souls and minds of who we all are as a humanity on the planet. That concerns me deeply, and that's part of what I do. And so I was sure of that, and I proved it. You were nominated for an Olivier Award for your performance in Sunset Boulevard. As I mentioned in the intro, you were inducted into the American Theater Hall of Fame. You have so many accolades. Does this type of recognition influence your approach to performances or your sense of self? Well, it means a lot. It means they get what you're trying to do, which is really an endorsement.

47:10Like I know on any given project, at this point I know, after all these years of studying and then coming through that doorway of my potential with Cats and Tender Mercies, and then I knew after those two jobs that I had a technique. I knew it was solid, and I trusted it, and I trusted myself for the first time. And I have built on it from there. And as I've gotten older, one of the joys of getting older is that skill set is so there for me. It's like I don't have to think about it too much. I just program in what the information is and boom, comes out. And it's become more and more effortless and more and more gratifying the older I've gotten.

47:54And that ability to trust your own instrument is huge. I'm still in the process of learning. I still practice. I still study. It is harder as you get older. It's very physical. It's physical work. So that part is, you know, challenging. And yet, when I was younger, I was working so hard to be that on top of the game. It's the equivalent of being a world-class athlete. You know, you go into training, you train really, really hard, and then, you know, you're ready for the big day. But it's about physical strength, mental strength, mental focus, and emotional facility, which is an ongoing process.

48:37And then releasing all of that practice and homework to a higher spiritual consciousness where we're all connected and sharing that on that plane. And it's a beautiful process. So when you ask about awards and stuff like that, you hope that that, quote unquote, body of accomplishment begins to speak for itself. You've continued to work steadily through what is now, I believe, six decades. More recently, you've worked with M. Night Shyamalan on both The Happening and Split, and Knight even wrote the role of the psychologist in Split specifically for you. very early in your career you were in the psychological horror film Carrie as you've mentioned what draws you to these darker roles in these darker films um well they're good roles you know it's like what you learn you go and you learn to study as an actor how to play conflicted psychology and it's fascinating to me I mean because my whole life has been about figuring all that out for myself.

49:47I'm still, you know, doing that six decades later, as you say, you know, yeah, it's just part of living. And I think to the degree that we have good information that can assist us along that journey, it's my privilege to be able to share that as a storyteller. All those roles that you mentioned are great roles in great films. It's been pointed out to me that, you know, I've done some horror films and I haven't even necessarily thought of them as horror films, you know. What do you think of them as? Just good movies, you know, good scripts and with scary stories. And some have been fantasy. And I think all those movies, there's a symbolism that's relevant.

50:35I think that's what's good about them is that you can get in there in the story and move people to this cathartic play. of being on the edge of their seats. And so they followed the story and there's maybe something to be shared there. I don't particularly like, I like thrillers. I don't like gore films. I want to talk about, there are actually three things more that I want to talk to you about. I want to talk about some of your television work, some of your recorded music, and then of course, The Mayfly. But let's talk a little bit about your television work. You continue to work in television.

51:12You've had recurring roles on shows, including Oz, Preacher, Law & Order SVU. Good friends, as I mentioned before the interview with the star of SVU, Mariska Hargitay. And in preparation for our interview today, I asked her what I should ask you. Oh, sweet. She gave me two questions. This is the first one. Where does your strength and tenacity come from? Well, my first thing that came to my mind was meditation. But then I thought, because I grew up in Texas, I was raised in Texas at a time period where Texas women were really all the ones that I knew were very bold and brash. I was lucky to be growing up.

51:53In fact, my mother, she was pregnant in South Dakota, and she drove to Texas to make sure that I was born in Big Spring so that I could have Texas citizenship. I think that's so funny. She said it was very important that I be a Texas girl. It's a wonderful answer. This is her second question. Who is your favorite character to act with on SVU? Mariska. He's beloved. I mean, Mariska is beloved. I'll never forget. I played a defense attorney some years ago in War and Light, the previous one of the great showrunners of all time. Absolutely. A lovely man. I love that guy. He had me play this character.

52:37And And my first time on the set with her, we were in some interrogation room, you know, and my client was this wonderful young actor who went on to be a big star. And it was one of his early things. And Warren came over and introduced himself on the set and said, you know, I wrote this for you and welcome and blah, blah, blah. And I love the show. I love, love, love, love Law & Order SVU. And I love Law & Order. And I love all of them. You know, I just there's something about that music. by Mike Post, you know, dun, dun, dun, dun. Right. You know, I dance every week when I'm watching the show.

53:14It's just like, it's so definitively New York, you know, everything about it. After COVID, we were coming out of COVID, I wrote Warren Light a message on Twitter. I said, dear Warren, you know, if there's a part that's coming up, I just love you guys so much. And I love the show so much. I sure wish you'd think about me. And he wrote back, he goes, absolutely. He said, if you need your insurance, I mean, this is how great the guy is. Do you need your insurance? I'll write you in as a judge next week. And I said, oh, that's so kind. My insurance is cool. But if you could think about something that's recurring, I said, I can't believe I had the audacity, the temerity to do this.

53:59But I was like, I sure would like to be on the team because I love the show so much. And I love Mariska. And I love everybody there. You got a meaty role out of that, too. He said, okay, I'm on it. And I was like, great. A couple months later, he sends me the script, and I was like, what the? And it was Lorraine Maxwell, who's the trial division chief and Carisi's boss. And it was so wonderful. And what a gift. What a gift. But Mariska, the first scene I had with her in Lorraine Maxwell's office, which was just everything in the decor reflected who I am as a person. I mean, just like, just everything.

54:43And I was just blown away by the whole experience. And she comes on set, and the energy force was huge, huge. She was this queen. Everybody just sat up, full attention. Mariska's there. And just beautiful, beautiful. And I mean, I'd met her before, but I was just thrilled. I love her. But everyone does. It's like I'm just part of the Mariska Hargity fan club. Let's talk about your music. You've recorded over 20 albums of music. You've been nominated for several Grammys. You perform and have recorded show tunes, jazz compositions, songs in French and Spanish, songs by Radiohead and Joni Mitchell and Stephen Sondheim and Marty Ballin and T-Bone Burnett.

55:29How do you pick your music? I mean, how do you even go about deciding what you want to record? It's a whole process. I give myself a lot more respect for this process than I used to because I would always feel compelled to do what people expect me to do. After Cats, I started first getting concert work. And I'm a huge Keith Jarrett fan, the solo instrument pianist. I've flown all over the world to see him and guaranteed every concert of his, I have a major epiphany. Like I'll literally in the middle of like, it's usually about a third of the way through. I start seeing visions about life and myself.

56:14And I started having these insights and I remember seeing him in Kearney Hall and then again in Alice Telly. and I saw myself when he was in concert, Al was telling me he was not even doing jazz improvisation, he was doing a classical concert, which was fascinating. I saw myself come on stage with a group of musicians. I saw it clearly and I felt what the connection was with the musicians and I felt, again, the quality of what I was communicating. I didn't know what songs or anything, but I knew what it felt like. So I went on this quest to find those musicians and I ran into David Sanborn, the saxophone player on the street.

56:56I was a huge David Sanborn fan. This was like back in 1983, 84, I guess. I said, can you recommend some piano players to me? And he said, call this guy. He was a sax player. He gave me the name of Jamie Haddad, who was this percussionist who became my percussionist for 20 years and played for me last year at Joe's Pub. He now works with Paul Simon on the road all the time. He's a brilliant man, lovely man. He gave me the names of two pianists. One was Kenny Werner, and I called them two pianists. And Kenny got back to me and came over to my apartment at 79th and Broadway and played for me. And I immediately burst into tears, and I said, would you be my pianist?

57:40And he said, yes. And so we started creating bodies of music together because I was being asked to do concert work. And we kept it in the Broadway genre because that was the expectation. But we did really new interpretations of the music, which was what I was trying to achieve. And Kenny really lent his enormous gift and his enormous genius and skill set to me. Because I find the colors that I want to hear in the jazz vocabulary, which that's really important to me and again it's about that history of who i studied when i was younger and who i was enchanted by all these great jazz instrumentalists and so we started creating bodies of music and then we were asked to do concerts and we had this quartet of musicians kenny werner jamie haddad our percussionist uh tony marino who still plays bass for me and billy drews the sax player and the first time i did a concert with them was upstate new york and i I walked on stage and suddenly was surrounded by this huge, masculine, mastery musicians.

58:53And so we then started being asked to do concerts regularly at the bottom line. The great bottom line. I love the bottom line. And Alan Pepper there became our patron and would have us there two or three times a year over a period of years. and I got my first record deal with this guy who was forming his own record label. And he was, had been a business affairs guy at Columbia Records. And so he wanted just Broadway, but we were doing it in this really unique, beautiful way. And when we first started doing it live, people weren't getting it because of the Broadway traditionalists really expected me to do it like showbiz razzmatazz and that wasn't who I was or what I wanted to be.

59:40And so I got criticized for that. And Kenny used to say, it's not till they sit down with our album that they're going to understand what we're doing. And so sure enough, a year later, our first album came out and the same people that had been critical of us in live concert had gotten it, but by sitting with the material and realizing the journey we were taking them on, which is very, carefully curated. So then that ability to arrange together became like a shorthand. And we did, God, I don't know how many albums we did together, quite a few. Then after 20 years, we parted company. And in the meantime, I had met Christian Jacob, who's this brilliant, brilliant pianist, arranger, musical director.

1:00:28And I called him and I said, would you work with me? And he said, yes. And so he started kind of gradually taking over because Kenny and I were kind of coming to a parting of the ways. And then when that finally happened, I said, will you be my guy now? And he said, yes. So I've been working with him for 18 years now. And we've done quite a few albums together. So this quest to find the right material, it takes Christian. We do a new collection. I call them collections. I've been criticized for that by critics. Why? I remember this wonderful critic at the New York Times thought it was a pretentious thing.

1:01:04But to me, I'm doing like a gallery showing of my new paintings every year, basically. I enjoy it. It takes months. And both Christian and I have to like the song, which isn't always easy to get him to see what I see about something, because I find them in obscure places, you know, like this wonderful song, Little Life. was this big deal last year on TikTok. Everybody was doing these interpretations of this girl, Cordelia's song, Little Life. She's a British songwriter, singer. And I mean, mothers in kitchens were singing it, like choreographers were choreographing pieces to it. It's a great recording.

1:01:50And so I sent it to him, he goes, no, you know, because he's French. And I I was like, Christian, no, I'm telling you, what we can do with this is beautiful. And he's like, no. So I had to just persist when I really believe in a song for me. And so that's how I pick music. And it's a collaboration with Christian that goes on for usually takes about six months to put together a new grouping of songs. The last thing I want to talk to you about is the film that you created and launched last year. you created and debuted an animated short film titled The Mayfly, which was selected for the 2024 Tribeca Film Festival.

1:02:32And the concept for The Mayfly was inspired by an actual event that you witnessed at a Judy Collins concert at the Cafe Carlisle. And you wrote, narrated, and executive produced this beautiful film alongside what you've described as an extraordinary team of animators, composers, and designers. What was this experience like for you first? Well, it was 2019, December 2019, and I witnessed this beautiful little golden creature flying over Judy Collins' head during her concert, and I was sitting in the far left corner of the room, and this little creature was creating all these light trails through the lights above her head and dancing, dancing so expressively to the music.

1:03:21And then at the penultimate moment, was suspended in space and then just did this graceful float down and landed into her hair, timed with the last chord of her guitar. And I was like, what the? And it was such a precious experience witnessing that. And I turned to my companion. I was sitting with him. I said, did you see that? And he was like, he didn't know what I was talking about. And I was like, whoa, that's amazing. How did this creature get to the Carlisle? I couldn't stop thinking about it. And so I started researching mayflies and found out that they're born in water. They're part of the ecosystem.

1:04:04They're just born in water, breed more mayflies, and they die. And that's it. And they live for three days tops. And I was like, what? how did this little insect get from, I figured, okay, she's born in the lake in Central Park. How did she get to Carlisle? So I just started thinking about it, thinking about it. And this story came up and I kept hearing this voice in my head. This will sound crazy, but it's really true. Write my story, write my story. And so I wrote it the following spring and COVID had just hit. And so I had written this lyric, what I thought was a lyric, and I gave it to Christian.

1:04:45And he just ignored it. He said, it's not a song. And I was like, okay. So we got to April and I started reviewing it again. And I'm like, there's something to this. So I edited it and sculpted it and sculpted it. Oh, even before that, when I was trying to get him to write it, I was at my favorite restaurant in New York, which is called Bond Street. And I heard this incredible piece of music. And I was like, that's the main flight, right? So I went to the matriarch. I said, what is that music? And they told me it was like this Norwegian guy. So I went back to my hotel room. I found the track, the very track.

1:05:22And I read my story to their track. And it was exactly six minutes and exactly fit my track. So I sent it to Christian. I said, this is how it works. And he still ignored it. Now we're, you know, into April. And so I started thinking about it again. And I'm like, I know I'm right about this. So I called the lyric down to like absolute menace, the most economical way I could tell the story. He's like, still is not getting it. And so finally, I just said, Christian, score this like you would a film. Because he scored two big movies for Clint Eastwood, and he's a beautiful film composer. I said, don't think of it as a song.

1:05:59Score it like a film. And so he did that. And he sent me like five different motifs. And I'd be, no, no, too sad. No, no, it's got to be joyous. You know, use that Norwegian guy's band, you know, as a kickstart. And he finally came up with this beautiful, that beautiful thing. That's it. That's it. Go. I financed it. And he, you know, I said, you know, we're doing all this on spec. Believe me, you'll be paid. Just let's record it. So he recorded his parts, keyboards, out of his living room. Our bass player, Trey Henry, recorded it out of his living room. Once I had the tracks, went to this funky studio in Fort Worth, which is about an hour from where I live, and recorded my narration over the tracks.

1:06:49And he'd written me a couple of parts to sing as well in the story. I sent all the tracks to my mixing engineer in Virginia. We came up with this gorgeous track. And I was like, oh, this is really special. How do I release this? And I couldn't figure it out because it's not really a song, which is what Kristen kept saying. So one day I'm just walking along and I'm like, this is an animated short film. How cool. How do I do that? So I wrote this gentleman on Twitter. That was my Twitter friend named Sam Levine, who's a big animation director and was working on Super Pets. so I wrote him a private me and my private messages to like Warren Light and Levine and I said I've got a beautiful track here that we've created that I think would make a lovely film would you mind listening to it and he said sure thanks and so gave me his email uh sent him the track he goes this is great here call these studios so he gave me the these three incredible animation studios and I mean I was blown away by their work it was exactly what I was envisioning I reached out to them and they're like, sure, we'll listen to it.

1:07:59Well, it'll cost you over a million dollars. And I'm like, what? I don't have a million dollars. So I just, one thing led to the next. And then Sam Levine introduced me to Eugene Zalandra, who was a big character designer at Disney for years. Sent it to Eugene. Eugene right away started sending me sketches of my mayfly. And I was like, oh my God, this is Herms. This is so beautiful. And so he, Eugene started of making introductions. And he introduced me to Superato, our beautiful director, my co-producer. And she immediately called me and said, I'll do it for free. And I said, no, you won't do it for free.

1:08:37All of us need work. So tell me, give me a budget I can afford and I'll go get the money. So she came back with a reasonable budget and still expensive. But and so we sent I sent it to 13 rich people that I know only three got back to me, which is to this day. I'm like, you're crazy. But those three saw no reason to finance it because normally like an anonymity of shorts, it's not going to be a big payback. My beautiful assistant, Kathy, comes in. She goes, remember our friends, the Coolidge's, Brad and Melissa Coolidge, who currently lived at that time, lived in Austin. Now they moved to the East Coast.

1:09:18She said, they're independent producers. Let's send it to them. So I sent it to them. they call me the next day in tears and say we'll pay for the whole thing i was like what so we were dancing we were dancing all around my house and so we called sue like we got the money she's like you got the money i'm like we got the money let's go so we formed a you know a corporation and sue and i shopped animation companies all around the world and we found this beautiful animation studio called Blue Blue in Poland. And they loved it and gave us like an economical budget that was within our budget. And we started working and that was like February of 2021.

1:10:03And we thought it was a six month project. It took three years and it came out finally, we started playing the whole festival circuit last year. A year ago, June, we were at Tribeca, Whoopi Goldberg picked it as one of the six animated short films, which is a blast. And it's been all over the world. And it won at the Animator Film Festival. It won a bunch of awards. Yeah. Best 2D animation, best director, best film. I want it to be a book, an illustrated book. And I want somebody to release it for streaming. I think it really deserves it. But it's been a joy. I've never done anything like it. It's a beautiful, beautiful film.

1:10:48Thanks. I do have one last question for you. Sure thing. You just finished a successful run at Joe's Pub. You're in the upcoming A24 film, Eternity. You will be performing at the Arts Project at Cherry Grove in Sag Harbor Theater this summer. But I recently read that you no longer feel ambition, but you still feel called to create. Talk about your seemingly nonstop work ethic with this sense of no longer needing to feel ambitious. In athletics, if you want to be the best at something, you're free to say so. There's like a different culture in the musical theater or even in music. It's because there really is no such thing as best.

1:11:35It can't be determined by scorekeeping or something like that. There's not even a criteria that's universal with which to assess. one actor, singer, one storyteller over another. There really isn't. They don't compare. None of us compare. We're all unique individuals. So reconciling that has been not the easiest thing for me because there is no comparing. Human beings don't compare. Art doesn't compare. None of it. But I knew I wanted to be an elite athlete in singing and acting. And I had a real ambition to achieve that level of excellence and mastery. And I wanted people to understand that about me, that I was that good.

1:12:21That was a burning ambition. It's like, you know, it's like, that's why I worked that hard. But as I've gotten older, I don't feel the need to prove anything. I know what my job is, and I know what my contribution will be. And I know that I can assist any project I'm a part of to be as good as it can be. And my collaborators can trust me. And I know that all these years of study and pouring myself into work on just the craft of acting and storytelling and singing is one aspect of it. But the other is learning so much about what's really going on here on the planet in terms of human connection and who we all are as one being and how important it is to work together to assist each other to live as comfortably and as well as we can in the time period we have, you know, given it's as short as it is.

1:13:24Well, thank you for continuing to do it. Betty Buckley, thank you so much for making so much legendary work that matters. Thank you. And thank you for joining me today on Design Matters. It has been an honor. No, it's an honor for me. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. You can read lots more about Betty Buckley and her vast body of work on her website, BettyBuckley.com. This is the 20th year we've been podcasting Design Matters, and I'd like to thank you for listening. And remember, we can talk about making a difference, we could make a difference, or we can do both. I'm Debbie Millman, and I look forward to talking with you again soon.

1:14:06Design Matters is produced by the TED Audio Collective by Curtis Fox Productions. The interviews are usually recorded at the Masters in Branding Program at the School of Visual Arts in New York City, the first and longest-running branding program in the world. The Editor-in-Chief of Design Matters Media is Emily Weiland.