Jennifer Pastiloff

0:00All the things that I hid about myself, all the years that I hid my depression, grief, hearing loss, I realized when I started talking about them, people showed up in droves to thank you and thank you. at their scene.

0:16From the TED Audio Collective, this is Design Matters with Debbie Millman. On Design Matters, Debbie talks with some of the most creative people in the world about what they do, how they got to be who they are, and what they're thinking about and working on. On this episode, Jennifer Pasteloff talks about the power of finally being honest with oneself. Most of the things that we hide about ourselves are the most magical, wonderful, beautiful things.

0:49My guest today believes that the only permission slip we really need is the one we write for ourselves. Jennifer Pasteloff is a writer, a teacher, a creator of workshops, and a powerful mix of movement, storytelling, and truth-telling. Cheryl Strayed has called her a conduit of awakenings, and her best-selling memoir, On Being Human, has helped thousands of people find their voice. Her new book, Prove of Life, is a luminous and radical collection of essays, prompts, poems, and practices designed to help us find wonder in even the most bruised corners of life. Jennifer Pasteloff, welcome to Design Matters.

1:33Hi, Debbie Millman. Jen, is it true that back in 1988, you were a guest star on the television show Punky Brewster? Wow, I've never had a podcast star with that. And how awesome that you brought that up. Yeah, and in the weirdness that is our life, it was before my hearing loss got really bad and before I was in deep denial about it. And I played like a Girl Scout kind of girl. And we were making fun of a deaf girl for the way she spoke. Now, if that ain't foreshadowing, what is? Wow. Back in those days, you could just about get away with anything on television. It's crazy. Yeah. On July 15th, 1983, your father died suddenly.

2:22You were only eight years old. And the last words you said to him were, I hate you. which wasn't, of course, in any way true, but you were angry at him for continuing to smoke when he was sick and you didn't want him to smoke anymore. How did that moment shape the narrative of your early life? In a lot of ways. Well, one of the things I said, you know, he said you're being bad and making me not feel good. And I said, you always break your promises. I hate you. So, I mean, count the ways, but one is you always break your promises. That's like something I have to put down every day, that I'm going to be disappointed that you're going to break your promise to me.

3:11You, whoever you are, that everything is my fault. He died right after I said that. And in my eight-year-old, you know, mind, it was because I was bad. So everything's my fault. and then began my excessive need to control, I guess, my surroundings so that nothing would change in that drastic way again. As if, right? Don't you wish? Of course. And, like, the problem is I was always the problem. I was always self-aware, which is why I'm making T-shirts that say being self-aware is overrated, because I knew that, and yet and still. I knew that and yet and still. Like anorexia, all the things. Like I know it's not really going to control it, but it's like a, I don't know, we trick ourselves to get through the day, whatever.

4:04Yeah. You described your mom as a single mother, a teacher, and a kind of fierce, unsentimental presence in your life. But you also stated that she was a placeholder for your self-loathing. how has your relationship with your mother evolved since you wrote those words you know my mom right now has early alzheimer's and i feel that finally and there's part of me that's like oh my god it's it's so late and then i have to remember that i'm right on time there's no such thing as too late but finally i have so much compassion um and it wasn't so much that she was unsentimental you You know, my mom was severely abused as a child, like sexually, verbally, you name it.

4:55Never once was she told I love you. My grandmother was like, imagine mommy, dearest, but times... So as time's gone on, I've really developed compassion. And of course, having my own child help with that. And now that she has early Alzheimer's, it's like all bets are off, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And I have to be careful not to ruminate and beat myself up for how tough I was on her. Well, I don't think you were as tough on anyone as you were on yourself, Jen. And in reading your first book and understanding how emotionally abused she was, even at five years old, she tried to get run over by a car so she could escape her life.

5:45Yeah. And then that she recovered from that. Yeah, that was my mom. She tried to, you know, run out and she got run over. And so she has a scar that she loves to show people. But yeah, super abused. It's a miracle that my sister and I are who we are and that my mom, despite never being shown love, was able to do so. Even though she wasn't affectionate, which I did not even clock until I had a child. Like she breastfed. She was a wonderful mom. But when I think about hugs and those kind of things, there's no, not really, you know. While you were growing up, were you able at any point to metabolize the guilt that you had over feeling like you were responsible for your dad's death?

6:34No. No. It did not, literally did not happen until maybe even a few years ago. Even when I wrote on being human, I mean, like, really, really. Again, I have to be careful not to feel so much shame around that, you know, like, how am I this old and still, you know, but. Oh, honey, I've got you on that one. I'm way older than you and I'm still working through my shame. I think it's lifelong. I don't know that there's an expiration date. There isn't. I do know there isn't. And yet that's why the thing is like we can know a thing, but it's about embodying it. We can know we're smart, but no, as a child, no.

7:12I mean, that's one of the reasons now I'm very childlike. I stopped being a kid at eight. I just went in my son's class and I taught them poetry and we made this anthology. And when I went in on Monday to do the book launch party with them, they presented me with a little plaque with my name and they said, you're in our third grade class now. And I started to cry because my dad died right before I started third grade. So A, it's all blackout. But like I stopped being a kid and it was like, what a gift, right? I think it's it's wonderful to be able to reconnect in those ways. And I feel after having read both of your beautiful, beautiful memoirs that there's so much joy that you are also bringing into the world with your candor and honesty.

8:03And just want to share that before we even go any further in the interview. So as you were growing up, Jen, you also pretended not to notice that your inability to hear was getting progressively worse. When did you first realize you actually had profound hearing loss? When I first noticed it was when I was in acting school. And I always say I pretended to be an actor. And that's just because I never actively did anything. but I did do a two-year Meisner training. And I would always sit in the front, which I did at NYU too. But I thought that was just because I didn't even clock why. But I did start to notice in acting school, but I denied it.

8:52So it wasn't until 2008 when I was in yoga teacher training, and my teacher Annie Carpenter was teaching meditation, and she had us close our eyes. and it's the first time I ever said this out loud. I said, I can't close my eyes because then I won't be able to know what you're saying. And she looked at me, it was so funny, and she goes, oh, that's why you always look at me like that. And of course, I got in my head. It never dawned on me because I look, I'm looking at someone's mouth, which most people, or now I'm able to just look at the face, but every, and then from then on, she was always like, Jen, you're in the front.

9:29But it was the first time I said it out loud and everything changed. It's like, you know, it's that thing I thought if I don't name it, it's not real. Many years ago, you said that there's a difference between deaf culture with a capital D and small d deaf like you are. Without my hearing aids, I don't hear anything. So it's your hearing is completely gone. Yes. But the difference is so I was educated on this. I thought it meant capital D deaf meant you can't hear it all. And small d deaf is like me with hearing aids. And I still struggle. This doesn't make me like a typical hearing person. No, it's if you operate, as far as I know, in deaf culture with ASL and with the culture, which I don't.

10:16I wasn't raised with it. I don't know ASL. Nobody knew you were deaf. Well, yeah. I mean, the thing is now I still they want me to get a cochlear implant. I wear hearing aids. I lip read. None of my friends know ASL. I mean, it's so interesting, even if I did. I mean, who am I doing sign language with? I wish we all knew it. But I feel often like I'm between worlds and it's lonely a lot. What has your journey of listening hard looked like and how has your deafness shaped the way you listen to people? It's been a gift. And I roll my eyes as I say it because it's not bypassing. You know, I can't stand when something like, let's say, shitty happens and people go, it's a gift.

11:07I can't say that's all hindsight. It's not hindsight. It's actively happening still. But for example, in my workshops, I'll literally, a lot of them are on the floor, yoga mats. I'll crawl around and almost like sit in your lap. If I was a typical hearing person, I would not do that. People would be like, you are in my space, get out. But because of my hearing loss, I'm able to like get in close. And that conversely makes people feel terrified, but also it's incredible because they feel so heard. But the other thing is, I didn't even realize, is that I learned all these other ways to listen, just intuitively by survival.

11:44You know, people call me a witch, and there is a... I mean, we all have intuition, whether we listen to it or not, but there are ways that I'm able to hear that I'm positive have developed because my ears don't operate exactly properly. And I hear with a level of compassion that I can't say if other people have. I have no idea because I'm only me, but I know that it's become one of my greatest gifts. And I always think it's ironic, you know, because I can't hear. And yet I'm a great listener. Except when I'm not. Yeah, I actually read a bit about how as you've gotten older, you are less concerned about saying, I don't want to hear what you have to say.

12:31Yeah. I love that. Also, it's like, no, I interrupt. I'm still me. I'm not like, no, I'm just this like Zen, amazing listener. I'm still, you know, like sometimes I don't listen and there's nothing to do with my hearing. But overall, yeah, I'm able to really listen to what isn't said, to nonverbal stuff. And the more I tap into it, the deeper it gets. You started writing stories at a very young age. You loved performing. You applied early decision to NYU's General Studies program and got in. What did you envision you were going to do professionally at that point? It's kind of depressing, but I was never able to envision a future.

13:23And it's not because necessarily I thought I was going to be dead. I just, even now, I get my heart starts racing and I have no choice because I'll, I have to plan an Italy retreat a year out. But I didn't. When you asked that, I didn't. And by the way, my mother did that for me. I didn't. And it's like I never dealt with my father's death and all of these things. And that was one of them. I could not think past like a week. It was just nothingness. So I don't know. But then I fell in love with poetry when I got there. But to answer a question, I had no idea. But once I fell in love with poetry, I envisioned academia.

14:02I don't know. A life maybe like you and Roxanne, you know. But like I was probably going to live in Iowa. It was always Iowa because back then and still I was, you know, going to get an MFA and, you know, have a life of that. And that is not my life. You stayed at NYU for three years but left. Yep. Ostensibly at the time for a semester off. But you ultimately decided not to go back. You went back to L.A. for that semester break. but stayed there for another 13 years working at a restaurant called The Newsroom. What made you decide to stay in L.A. rather than come back to New York? Wow, you are giving me so many—you really are a master interviewer because you're confronting me in so many ways.

14:58Oh, I don't mean to be confronting. No, no, no, no, but it's good. It's good. Oh, maybe I used the wrong word. It's good. Okay, good. I didn't one of the things I talk about in this proof of life is how I'm so bad at decision making unless it is like pre deciding it ain't going to work out or the shoe is going to drop the other one. But I didn't decide. And that's the thing. It was complacency. I didn't decide anything. I just kept on. And the thing about L.A. that I always find fascinating is there's no seasons. So there's no markers of time. It's so bizarre. So it was like all of a sudden 14 years passed.

15:41It was like a long weekend. But I just kept existing. Like I was, it was like I was a walking dead person. I didn't decide, you know, nothing. I didn't decide anything. I didn't take action on anything. I just hated myself. But I didn't do anything about it until antidepressants. But in the very beginning, I was so deep in my eating disorder that I never also actively, like, dealt with. I just gained some weight back. So everyone was like, she's all right. But I would work out for, like, four hours a day. And I thought, oh, you know, if I go back to NYU, I won't be... I mean, just everything was, like, about the now because I could never foresee a future.

16:25You write very poignantly about the moment that you... that you can actually pinpoint the moment that your self-hate began to solidify into an eating disorder. You told a doctor that you wanted a breast reduction, and he said, you're crazy. You want smaller breasts? Lose five pounds. Yeah, I was 17. Do you remember when control over your body became your primary form of control? Yep, that night. I went home. My mom was getting her, I guess, implants taken, something, and I went with her. And I want to go back in time and, like, shake him now, you know, but I came home and I'll never forget. I made a list.

17:05Like, no wheat, you know, gluten. We didn't say that back then. It was like, you know, wheat. And it became a way to not be on my body. And also, I didn't ever want to feel. And I felt like when I was empty, it was easier. Somehow I thought I could deal easier. None of it was true, of course, or that I could control. But it is. It's the great cliche, but that was a thing I could control. I can't control someone else dropping dead. I can't control another catastrophe. I could control this. And then I couldn't. It became out of control. It feels to me looking back at your life at that time that it must have been rather punishing as well to be serving other people food for a living.

17:56And what did what did being a waitress at that time teach you most about people and how you relate to people? It confirmed what I always knew, which is I am good with people. You know, I was a terrible waitress, but I was great with people. Like, I don't know how I wasn't fired all the time. So it confirmed what I knew and that ultimately I love people, except when I don't. But, you know, I think it also it taught me a lot about the first thing that's coming to my mind is the restaurant was right next to Cedars-Sinai, the hospital where my son was born. It taught me so much about not making up stories about people.

18:40You know, like, someone would come in and they'd be an asshole, let's say. And then they'd come in the next day and the next day, and I realized, oh, like, their kid is dying next door at Cedars-Sinai. You know, that I would come to learn that. And I remember it would shake me. And then over the years, I just, I really got clear on, you just never know. And so really, how easy it was for me to make a difference in people's lives, like with kindness or a smile or looking in their eyes, whatever it was, we're all human. And yeah, some were so entitled, and I learned about that. But we're all human.

19:22And that really, really taught me a lot, as did my hearing loss, but about compassion and humanity and not taking things personally, although I have never mastered that, and I don't know I ever will. you've said that your bottom wasn't a crash it was a long slow erosion when did you know that you were at your limit it's interesting because you know we're talking about the newsroom days and my mind immediately just went to about six and a half months ago when I got sober

19:59I think if we go back in time, it's when I finally said yes to going on antidepressants. It was like I knew if I didn't, I was probably going to die. And so I did. And they changed my life. And I say they saved my life. And people will say, well, you saved your life. Yes. And They definitely allowed me to see a glimmer, a glimmer of possibility. And that's all you need. I didn't see any of that before. And then, you know, six and a half months ago when I got sober, well, my son turned eight. I was eight when my dad died. And I saw myself doing the same bullshit. Not drugs, alcohol, but same, same.

20:45Um, so. Jen, you worked at the newsroom for over 13 years. At the same time, towards the end of your tenure there, you were creating your workshops, you were writing more and more. What gave you the courage to finally take that step into essentially working for yourself? Well, you know, first, when I went on the antidepressants, it's like I said, this little glimmer of light. and I did the training, even though I didn't want to be a yoga teacher. And I did make my way out, but I made, I can't believe I did this actually, but I made these little business cards. A friend of mine had taken this yoga photo of me and I literally, it was like me in a yoga pose and I would drop them off with the customer's checks.

21:31Now, mind you, I'd worked there 14 years, so I had a lot of regulars, not strangers, but people I knew. And I started getting clients, privates. And I started making, you know, for me at the time, it was good money. And then my mom, bless her, my mom was just sort of like, I'll figure it out, which is very hard to be with now since she's an early Alzheimer's. But she's like, I'll build you a website. Don't know how she did it. She made it so like if you typed in private yoga instructor, Los Angeles, I was the first that came up. So I started getting all these clients and then, but the reason I started dropping off the business cards and everything.

22:08I hadn't been at the news in 14 years, but I got this very clear knowing that was, I thought, this is sink or swim. Ain't nobody going to do it for me. All the years I was pretending to be an actress, I got to do this. And so I hustled in a way, I gave it my all in a way I never had with anything. And I started working and, you know, I became a successful yoga teacher, but my fear of change, I could not let go of the restaurant, even though it was only one shift, until essentially I finally got fired. I read that. I know. I hate change that much. I will stay if I'm miserable. I don't care as long as I don't have to change.

22:54And most every change except leaving my marriage has been because I had to. How did you first become exposed to yoga? Interestingly enough, you know, I was I was an exercise a whole like I was an exercise bulimic. I was never a throw up bulimic because I couldn't. And I had so many injuries. So I started doing yoga to heal my injuries. And then I noticed the side effect was like I would have an hour or what have you where it wasn't in my head. And I was like, wait a minute. And it started helping with depression and it didn't make it go away. You know, that in conjunction with the antidepressants was, was really the thing.

23:34But I kept going back because it, um, I'd have an hour where I didn't hate myself or I wasn't body checking or I wasn't depressed. You know, it was, um, it felt like a miracle. So I kept going and going and going. How did the act of physically unclenching your body via yoga allow your grief to surface? I don't know that it did. If I'm honest, I want to say it was only not even three years ago. And I remember even when I wrote On Being Human, I had the same editor, Maya Zeev, and she was talking about, you know, metabolizing grief. And I was like, what? Because I hadn't. I couldn't cry. I mean, I was emotionally constipated.

24:20I could only cry if I'd watch, like, This Is Us or Terms of Endearment. And that sounds hilarious. But I would do that because it feels good to cry. I wish that yoga did that. I mean, it definitely helped me soften, but it didn't. It was so locked up. It was so many years of just buried in me. I suppose it paved the way, but really only three summers ago. And I think it was a culmination of a lot of things. But that's the honest answer. How did your yoga practice and your writing practice begin to become intertwined and result in your being able to lead workshops with both of these components embedded in them?

25:09Yeah. Well, I never wanted to be a yoga teacher. I went to the restaurant and my friend said, you should become a yoga teacher because you do it all the time. And I would say, I'd rather fall on a knife. And then, I'm not kidding. And I still don't want to be a yoga teacher. Once in a while will, it brings me joy. But when I took the antidepressants, that's when I saw the glimmer of possibility. And I went, huh, maybe it will be an escape route. Lo and behold, it was. My friend Holt McAllenay gave me$3 ,000, which was so much money at the time. It still is to me. So I could take a month off work and do this intensive training.

25:50And Annie Carpenter, my teacher, I remember it was really wonderful because I taught my sample class and I read a poem at the end by Mary Oliver or Stanley Kunitz. And she looked at me and then I did it again. And she goes, that's going to be your thing. And it was like, I was brand new. I didn't know you could. It was like she gave me permission. So I started doing that. And then, you know, as I started teaching and I realized I was really good at, I'm a great teacher. I'm not great at yoga. I walk around with a coffee tub, but I was a great, just the same thing. I'm good with people. I'm not kidding.

26:22I was the worst. I'd walk around with coffee. I mean, I couldn't do half the shit, but I'm really good with people and good with teaching. And so as time went on, I got more confident and I'd read more poems. Then I'd write my poem. And then I started doing stuff with like, here's a sticky note, write something on it. And then I got more courageous and it was like more writing. And then eventually the yoga part started falling away, but not completely because I found the most amazing thing, which I knew and had forgotten. But the more we are in our body and not in our head, the more vulnerable we are, the more open.

26:59And so I - Why is that? Why is that? Oh, we're less guarded. I mean, the way I liken it is like, you ever have those days where you're so tired and you're emotional? You're like, I don't even know why I'm crying. It's like, oh, I'm so tired, right? It's that. Or when I was like really in the throes of anorexia, I would eat in my sleep. You know, there's a poem in my book about shame. And that is because our inhibitions are lowered or I would always have to drink first to eat or to have sex. And it was like, because our inhibitions are lowered. So the way I would describe it to my people, I would say that.

27:41I would say, but this way, we're doing it in a healthy way. We're getting to that same sort of open and vulnerable place. I think it's just our defenses are down, you know, at least a little bit. That's my hope. And in yoga, shmoga, people, as long as they're not hurting themselves, I don't care. Maybe they're just sitting and breathing. It's about just being less in our head, less guarded, less all about the thought and what we think. And then how did your writing and then writing hybrid yoga workshops ultimately result in your first book? And then how did that turn into a career as a writer and a speaker?

28:28Yeah, among other things. Who can say what my career is? I love that I can't say. Um, so ultimately I, I, I didn't want to be a yoga teacher. You know, I was a writer and, and it was a way to come home. You know, I, my friend one time put it like this. She said, um, yoga was your way out of the restaurant and writing was your way in. Um, ultimately I, I ultimately let go. Like, I don't call my retreats yoga retreats anymore. Oh, hell no. but I would ultimately I let go of that aspect although they do contain you know body movement but I guess I got brave enough to give myself permission it's like I'm a writer I would knew I always was going to write a book I just thought it was in my 20s which is why I love the imaginary time gods are bullshit it's like fine this book now I thought it was a poetry book and well guess what?

29:22I don't want to read a memoir by anyone. I mean, maybe, but I'm right on time. But it came back to what I wanted and who I was. And I didn't let go of the yoga part because that was part of it. And I saw the magic that was able to get created by people getting out of their heads. Because look, I'm not teaching. I'm not like, and I'm going to, this is all in the craft of, It's really for anyone. And sometimes people end up publishing essays in the New York Times or writing books. Sometimes it's just for themselves. It doesn't matter. But the idea is to be less in your head. So the editor is not there as much.

30:04But really, I just, I started giving myself permission little by little. And all the things that I hid about myself, all the years that I hid my depression, grief, hearing loss, I realized when I started talking about them, people showed up in droves to thank me and to say I feel seen. And not that we need external validation, but I'll be damned if it isn't helpful sometimes. It's when we solely rely on it. But I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. All the things that I've been hiding are the things that actually are the thing. And that, that was a huge epiphany. And that's true for everyone.

30:40Most of the things that we hide about ourselves are the most magical, wonderful, beautiful things. So I really, I really just allowed myself to be who I was and do what I wanted and come back to my writing and put it all together, like I said, in a weird stew. And we all get to do that. I mean, all the things you do inform the other things, right? You've said that you didn't want your workshops to be labeled self-help. When people come to your workshops, what are they hoping for? What do you think that they come for and what do you think they leave with? Oh, great question. Well, you know, it's changed.

31:19It's morphed over the years, just as I'm sure all your stuff has. But it's funny. I think a lot of times they don't know what they're coming for, which I love. I love. They just see they see either me and the way I live my life, which which occurs, I think, to them or what the feedback I get is is kind of free or like with my art. you know, I don't know what I'm doing. It's free. And then they see people who've been and they see the joy and these connections and they don't know exactly, but they go, I want in on that. And I do believe it's become a lot about connection and feeling belonging. People sense that.

32:01And it's true. You know, there's, that's why people come back and come back. There's no bullshit. There's no clicks. It's like, it's, it's, it's magic. And people want that. We're desperate for connection. so there's that and I think there's a sense of knowing that I do get to have this whatever they're this at this is you know whatever they've been denying themselves and there's a sense like maybe I will gather courage by attending this and you know I beat I beat people over the head not literally but with a quote I love by Freud which is how bold one gets when one is sure of being loved. And I believe that's the crux of it.

32:43You know, there's something that happens with connection and with when people believe in you. And, you know, it's like, oh, anything's possible. Can you talk about your We're All Poets workshop? My friend Kristen McGinnis and I, who started Rise Books, it was back when that song was popular, WAP. And she just thought, you know, we're all poets. WAP. It's so clever. It is. But it's where it's either just us two or we ask a poet to join us and be the guest teacher. You know, Naomi Shihab Nye, who's a dear sister friend of mine, and Ross Gay, who I worship, and Brad Aaron Maudlin, and I can't remember the other people.

33:28So we do these workshops. And And then I do a lot of my own called Allow, and they all have the same component. I found that the reason I have a line around the block for people to come is because there's no elitism. It's very much like, if you think you suck, this is for you. P.S. You don't suck. If you feel awkward, this is for you. If you feel like you're not going to fit in, this is for you. If I ask people, are you afraid you're not going to fit in? almost everyone always raises their hand. And so it's like, this is for you. This is for you. And so it's like, okay, I'll go. So it's not like, you know, only come if you're, you know, a celebrated poet or you have an MFA.

34:15And if you're a weirdo, show up. And so it's like this very welcoming space. And you can share, you don't have to. And so people feel very, very, for lack of a better word, safe. And it's fun and it's generative. So it's not just the guest poet or me lecturing. It's like, oh, you know, we'll give them time and they write and they share and people end up becoming friends. And it is that same thing where there's a boldness that happens because it feels like such a supportive space. And we get to share space with these beautiful poets. What's one prompt from any of your workshops that never fails to open people up?

35:01Well, I decided to flip my, you know, the thing I walked around with in my body, in my marrow my whole life since my dad was, is I am bad. I'm a bad person. I am bad. So I decided, well, screw it. I'm going to alchemize. I'm going to flip it. So I open often with, A, are you willing to be bad? Are you willing to suck? And I just love that because it's like you're letting yourself off the hook before you begin. And nine out of ten people get really excited. Yes, yes. And there's always someone who's like, because it's like, it's so hard for them to let go of the perfectionist, right? So once they say they're willing to be bad, willing to suck, I go, write about a time when you were bad.

35:45And boy, oh boy, does that open everything. because either they write about a time where they really were bad, which, who's the arbiter of bad? Unless, I mean, look, they murdered someone. But, or they flip it on, they flip it. Like, maybe someone told you you were bad or they play with what bad means or whatever. But it's endless, the possibility. And I also think it's just such an opportunity to alchemize and then to redefine for ourself what these things mean. So that's the one I love. Your first book, On Being Human, was full of clarity and fire, and it was kind of an emotional toolkit for survival.

36:30I recently reread it in prep for our interview today and forgot how funny it also is, and that's one of the things I like most about your work. Oh, my ego. My ego just loved that. Your new book, Proof of Life, feels different. It's still funny. It's still beautifully written, but it's a more mature writer. What changed in you as a writer and as a person that allowed this book to emerge the way that it did? holy shit what didn't let's see uh well i mean i will tell you one thing i reclaimed myself as a poet and i hang out with a lot of really successful writers uh you know fancy writers and all i'm not one i always i'm like on the outskirts you know i don't have an mfa all these things so i didn't think i got to write poems i reclaimed myself my myself as a writer also i was very confident in keeping my voice as exactly as it is without, what would they want?

37:36What do you think they would like? I stayed very true to my voice. And that confidence, when we do that, I think allows for so much of what's true. And, you know, I don't mean what's true in terms of factual, but like what's true for us. Also, I left my marriage. I did the thing that I believed, bar none, without any question would kill me, which is change. I believed in my marrow, change equals death. And I did. I allowed for that. And then I thought, well, my gosh, I didn't die. And I got sober. I mean, so there was a lot, a lot that transpired to allow me to go where I didn't think I could go.

38:23And the poetry thing is so huge for me. The phrase proof of life is often used in hostage situations to confirm somebody is still alive. Why did you choose it as your title? Thank you for asking that. I used to have this friend who, I have a lot of childless friends, but this particular one really felt defined by that and felt like, you know, I have nothing to show for my life. And I felt regret. I remember when I was at the newsroom after like 14 years, I had a panic attack one day, like, what have I done? What have I done? I was going to be this poet. What have I done? And I, I realized, you know what?

39:03I've done love. And yet I caught myself about a year after I sold this book. I looked around and I literally, I hadn't written it. Not only had I written it, I hadn't written one word. I didn't have any money. I looked around and I was like, oh my God, I have nothing to show for this year. And I caught myself saying that, which is a beautiful thing to be able to catch ourselves, right? And I went, oh, holy shit, John. You're back on your bullshit. What have you done? You've done love. Look around at all this art and you've nurtured friendships. And I thought, okay, proof of life. So you don't have to show any proof.

39:43You don't have to, oh, here, look, look how relevant I am. Look how worthy I am. Look what I've made. Look how much money I have. Look at my book. You know, all of that wonderful yay, but none of it matters. We are worthy simply by virtue of being born. Fact, all of us. And I think it's easy to get caught up in, well, what do I have to show for myself? And so proof of life is the antithesis of that. You are your own proof of life. You don't have the show shit. Yeah, we live in a culture now which is so overwrought with productivity as badge that it becomes very hard to feel that there's anything valuable other than achievement and making.

40:28And I think it's become increasingly more destructive for our psyches to be living in an environment that actually encourages that. And it's very, very hard to, at least it is for me, to try to find balance. And that, for me, has been a real lifelong journey. I mean, we've even texted about this before. I mean, that's why I called it. And I want to model that. And so when I catch myself, I'm grateful. when I catch myself, you know, associating my worth or, I mean, some of the ways I talk to myself still, I catch myself like, it's just terrible, but it is destructive and it's insidious and it's all we see around us.

41:16So I want to be who I say I am and model that. And I want to remind us all that we don't have, there's no like thing we can carry around that goes, look, I'm worthy. See? See? That lasts for about a second if somebody says yes. One of the things that I found most compelling about Proof of Life was that you're not just writing about grief and trauma. You're writing about the way we metabolize these feelings and experiences over time as you've lived through time and grief and trauma. What have you learned about how we metabolize emotions? One of the greatest things I've learned is that energy doesn't die.

41:59So when I was eight, and it breaks my heart still when I think about, I wanted to die, you know. And instead I just said, I don't care. And I locked my jaw and that was that. And you're not fooling anyone. Like, I wasn't. Like, you know, shoving it all back down, it doesn't go anywhere. And so even when I said to you earlier, like, and you said there's no expiration date, It's like coming up now. Well, of course it is. It didn't go anywhere. And so one of the greatest things is like, I love to work. I work with a ton of grieving people all the time. I give scholarships predominantly to women who've lost a child that started by accident, but grieving people.

42:40And it's just bearing witness. Like I'm not there. I'm not going to like fix or if they ask me advice? Sure. But bear witness is to give people space to process and to feel because that's what I didn't do. You know, so the greatest thing I learned, I think, is that it's of the utmost importance to feel it, to allow ourselves to feel it. And that is a thing I wouldn't, and I still struggle with. It's like a physiological response that gets like, like a hardening like I'm not gonna and I have to really soften I have allow you know next to my paint I've allowed tattoo and that like you said there's no expiration date grief is a um it ebbs and it flows and there is no such thing as getting over anything that's a crock of shit it.

43:35Like, you don't one day, like, I'm over it. But I do believe we can alchemize things. And I'm doing it all the time into art, into what I do for a living, into beauty, softness, tenderness. I never knew that was possible until recently. I talked a little bit about the humor that you infuse in your writing. Another thing that I really admire and enjoy is how you pair the sacred with the humorous and the profane. So an entry might begin in reverence and then end in fuck it. How do you strike that tonal balance? Well, that's life, Deb, isn't it? I mean, that's the thing. I mean, I don't buy what I'm selling if there's no humor.

44:31Like, I just don't. And look, my father was, to this day, the funniest human being ever. Philadelphia shut down when my dad died. So that, I believe he gifted me and my son. But, like, life is so shitty. Right now, if you dare, look at your social media feeds, listeners, and I dare you not to weep. so we might as well hunt actively for the beauty and for the funny and I'm not saying everything's funny but like find the levity because shit's hard and ugly and like I also um for me it's been survival like with my hearing I mishear everything if I didn't have a sense of humor this is not an exaggeration I would not get out of bed because it's so depressing I always feel lost and stupid and alone.

45:20So it's like I'm most days able to laugh. But I really find, and my favorite writing really does that. My friend Courtney Hemmeister, Roxanne does it. I mean, they're like, you're able to, within the same breath, like take someone's breath away with like something that is so painful and beautiful full of grief and then like you snot laughter, you know, within the same breath, because that's life. It's never just one thing. Speaking of multiplicities and the ways in which we tell ourselves things, I want to talk to you about some pretty major changes you made between book one and book two. In On Being Human, you share how deeply the need to feel that you would never be left was debilitating to you.

46:14And you write how you cringe when you think of the things you used to do for love. But you do learn how to live with that and through that fear. And you share how you met and then married Robert. By the end of On Being, you also have a child together. But in Proof of Life, you share how the marriage disintegrated over time, how you ended up falling in love with a lovely man named Henry. You write this about the situation in proof of life. And listeners, you will immediately understand the humor and the profane and the reverence all in one long sentence. I distrusted my feelings when I first left.

46:57So I made this game for myself called, am I really unhappy? Or am I just saying that now because I am deeply in love with someone else? A game otherwise known as gaslighting myself. And then you go on to write this. Before you write me off as some navel-gazing memoirist who just got bored with her marriage and decided to upend her life so she could whine about it in a book, I ask that you take a breath. May we all always take the breaths until we can no longer. Jen, that's just really wonderful. I mean, I am a navel-gazing memoirist, but anyway. So what did you finally decide about falling in love at the time that you did and upending your life when you did?

47:41What's the verdict for you? I was right on time, you know, and especially for women, doesn't matter what age, but let's say 40 on, you know, whenever we start getting these messages of like you're too late or you're behind or this panic or this fear that is so, infiltrated in our society, our culture. I was right on time. And that change didn't kill me. Like, I really, it might hurt, but it's not going to kill you, nor would intimacy, you know. And it's embarrassing in a way, but I live by shame loss rather than weight loss, so I won't hide in shame to admit things like, I just, as long as I wouldn't be left, you know, feel so pathetic.

48:29And also I have compassion for that quote unquote pathetic me. And now I don't, I actually realized recently I don't have that anymore. There is a certain like, I'm okay with me. No matter what, I'll be okay. So you can rely on yourself. You feel like you can rely on yourself. Yes. I never, this is why it's so important that we don't believe everything we think. I never thought I would ever feel that. I never thought I'd be able to stop drinking. I mean, I never thought I would. How were you able to do that? Because it does seem that you do have a lot of love and intimacy in your life. You said before that you couldn't have intimacy without drinking.

49:10How were you able to heal yourself in that way? Well, really, because I had a partner who I met my person, you know, and I read. It was, oh, my God, now I can't remember. It must have been Roxanne. It was in the, someone printed it out for me. It was at the New York Times. it was either you or Roxanne, but writing about each other. I believe it was her, but it's like finding your person. And I, you know, I never could look in anyone's eyes. I never had my eyes open ever during sex ever, ever. And like, and that, I mean, I just couldn't. And so I found someone that I just felt utterly safe with.

49:51And even though it was still scary over to now, it's not. And I let go. And that's part of the subtitle of proof of life. Let go. Let love and stop looking for permission to live your life. I let go. I let go of all the things that I was clinging to for that sense of false security, right? Or that were keeping me safe, quote unquote, that weren't really. One of the things that I thought was so astute was something a rabbi said to you about ending your marriage, he told you or she, I wasn't sure if it was he or she, said that you urged you to end the marriage more carefully even than how you entered it.

50:40How were you able to do that? I don't know that I was. I mean, I don't know that I was. And it's interesting because I think a lot of the times when we ask ourselves how and we look back, I go, fuck if I know. I mean, the truth is, I'm really glad that I didn't write and I was going to write The Man I Divorced because by the time the book comes out, we will be. And I'm glad that I didn't because we're not. And in fact, we cohabitate every other week. And it's actually quite beautiful. We're like roommates now, which is how we were before. So I don't know. All I know is one thing. we both put our son first.

51:23So there was never, and there still is never, never anything disparaging said. And my son feels nothing but love. Like he sees us, he thinks we're best friends. And I was very careful, even when he was angry with me, to stay as loving as I could to stay me, to stay true to who I was throughout. And so now finally we're like functioning roommates, but I tried to stay grounded and rooted in love and kindness and what was true. And what was true was not that I left because I met someone else. What was true was that I was long and happy. We weren't connected. So I really, um, I don't know, but it's beautiful.

52:10I'm very, very proud. My son loves Henry. He loves his daddy. There's no sense of lack. There's no sense of not enoughness. You describe marriage now not as a fairy tale, but as proof of life. In what way? I don't know. I know that I didn't really care about being married before, ever, ever. And I was never someone that cared about the whole wedding thing. And Robert and I kind of got married. Like, he wasn't a citizen. I'm like, yeah, let's get married. And Henry, it was like, wow, I really want to wake up with this person every day. And so the idea for me now is more about having a true partner and this connection and friendship.

52:58Not that your person necessarily has to be everything, but all the things that I deny myself, I didn't even acknowledge that I needed or wanted, but it's all part of it. And no, nothing's ever perfect. That is a fairy tale. There's the mundane. I love boring. I love just sitting on the couch. You know, I want that. I want to be comfortable in doing nothing with someone. It's communication. It's all of it. But it sure as shit is not a fairy tale. in proof of life you're also very honest about aging chronic pain the betrayal of the body what's your relationship to your body now how has it shifted from enemy to more of a an ally yeah yeah depends on the day baby i mean i jokingly say that but i also am not i think when we're out of alignment, when I'm out of alignment, and that can be because anxiety or someone rejected me or I didn't sleep or whatever, my inner asshole is louder.

54:08And my default, a very easy synapse, if I'm not careful, is to immediately, instead of what's really going on, is to go like, oh my God, I'm disgusting. So right now I'm aligned. It's a lot softer. You know, I haven't exercised in two years, which, like, coming out of my mouth doesn't even—I mean, when I say exercise-aholic, like, I can't even explain. So coming out of my mouth, that doesn't even—is that me? So it's a lot soft. How did you make that transition from being so hard on your body with exercise, being so restrictive with food? I mean, with Henry and I became a lot softer. Then with the painting, I switched it.

54:57You know, I mean, I'm an addict through and through. So even with art, I'll stay up all night. So it's like, okay, fine. I switched addictions, except this one is healthy. I'm like, all right, I could do better doing a little more of my work and reading a little more, but I'm not mad at it. where so I kind of switched. So now it's like where I'd be exercising, I'm making art. But really, first, it was because I fell in love. And it was just the first time I was like, I didn't care to be so rigid with that and punishing, you know, so everything became less punishing. You have a lot of genisms or pastelopisms, I think, as you refer to them.

55:39And they're your shorthand for a variety of emotions or experiences. Some of them are really beautiful, like beauty hunting, which is something that you call a spiritual practice, but it's also known as may I get my head out of my ass practice. You talked about the imaginary time gods or the ITG, this not real group of people. Tell me about what those entities do and what we should be watching out for in our encounters with them. If I am leading a workshop with 100 women and I go, how many of you feel behind? Deb, I swear, 90 % raise their hand. Also, they can't say behind in what? It's amazing.

56:21It's amazing. Wait, what do you, they don't know, but they're behind. And the few that don't are women like in their 60s. Usually they're like the ones that have less fucks to give finally, but you're not behind. There's no such thing. And yet there's this sort of like pressure. And then if we buy into it, and it's all the same with the productivity stuff, you're not too old. You're not too late. I mean, you might be too old to have a biological kid. All right. There's certain things, but we buy into a lot of bullshit. And I mean, frankly, imagine if we stopped. Like, billion-dollar businesses would go belly up.

57:01The imaginary time gods, I think it's like tattoo it in your heart, your mind, yourselves. Imaginary time gods. It's not too late. And you're not cooked. You're not a fixed object in space. You know, I just discovered a painting three years ago. And I can't draw a stick figure. And I make all this art. I sell it. And people are fascinated by that. Most of the people are like, I could never do that. Well, I wouldn't know what to do or how to do it. It's too late. Wow. I catch myself. That's the key. I catch myself when I say things like that. So it's really about catching ourselves and remembering they're not real.

57:42Jen, I have one last question for you and a request. So this is my question. One of the most poignant and heartbreaking lines in your book is this. What if I looked back on my life and saw that what I had spent the most time doing was hating myself? What advice would you give to our listeners and maybe the host who might be grappling with that question? Yeah. Okay. Believe the person in front of you. So let's say I'm talking to you, Debbie, moment. So I'd say, you know, when Roxanne is sitting in front of you and you look in her eyes, she is not lying to you. Believe the person in front of you.

58:33And actually, it's such a disservice when we don't, you know? It's like saying, I don't trust you. So you believe the person in front of you. And that doesn't mean any Joe Schmo. I'm talking about, that's why I do an exercise called In the Voice of Someone Who Loves You, where you write a letter to yourself, whether they're living or dead or, you know, your wife or Jesus, your dog. And you believe the person in front of you. And then, and that's huge, first of all, that's real, that is trust with a capital T. It's like why when my son, he gave me the title of my TED Talk, when he said, Mommy, nothing you do is wrong.

59:09It's what I've been waiting my whole life to hear. And if I said that to myself, I'd be like, you're a fucking liar. But I would never say that to an eight-year-old. So if you trust the person, if you trust Roxanne, then how dare you doubt anything, how magical and beautiful and wonderful you are. Then, like if you actually write a letter in the voice of her and you carry that around on your wallet or something like a talisman, then you begin to bridge the gap. How do you do that? Well, you find ways, whatever works, barring you're not hurting yourself or anyone intentionally, to bridge the gap between how she sees you and what she's saying and what you're saying to yourself.

59:50So that it's closer to that. Because that's the work, if you want to call it, of our lives, right? So the people who truly love us and see us, they see us. So it's trust in that. And that means we've got to find our people. And for anyone listening that's like, I don't have my people, they are there. Stay open. They are there. Look around. Stay open. Yeah. Finally, my request. Proof of Life contains poetry in every chapter. Really, really beautiful poetry. Waiting for the poetry book next. And I'm wondering if you could read the poem in the book titled Because We Forget. Not only do I think it's a really beautiful poem and not only do I think it's a sort of heartfelt bookend to this interview in general with you, but I think it's proof of growth in so many ways to have this poem as part of your experience with your father.

1:01:02Yeah. It's so funny because when you said last night we read it, it's not actually a poem. It's just I threw it in there. But what I love is I do that a lot, you know, like the lyrical and what have you. That's why I had to look it up. And yeah, so because we forget. It feels like a poem to me, Jen, just saying. Which I love. I mean, Lydia Yuknovich, she's such a poo-poo-san genre. But I love, like, it's like, who can say, right? Like, all of it, right? Because we forget. I had a dream once in which I had a conversation with my father. I was an adult in this dream. I asked him, were you afraid?

1:01:46I was, at first. Why? because I knew I was dying and I wasn't finished. A sigh issued from his dream body. Did it hurt? I asked. Not in a way you will understand. What did it feel like then? In the dream, I had a desperate ache to understand what it felt like. It felt like forgetting. It was that fast, the undoing, and just like that, gone. I saw you at 38, he continued, my age. I understood your own forgetting and how difficult it is to keep a life going when there's no body anymore. What did you understand, I asked as I reached out to touch him, that you might forget small details, but that you'd carry my legacy, and that you and Mommy and Rachel would know I loved you and did the best I could, he explained.

1:02:48Did you? Do the best you could? I couldn't touch him, no matter how hard I tried and I tried. I don't know, yes, maybe, no. Why is it so hard to do our best? Because we forget, the dream said. Because we forget. Jennifer Pasoloff, thank you so much for making so much work that matters. And thank you for joining me today on Design Matters. Thank you. You're a gift. Jen's new book is titled Proof of Life. Let go, let love and stop looking for permission to live your life. To learn more about Jen, you can go to her website, JenniferPasteloff.com. This is the 20th year we've been podcasting Design Matters.

1:03:41And I'd like to thank you for listening. And remember, we can talk about making a difference. we can make a difference, or we can do both. I'm Debbie Millman, and I look forward to talking with you again soon. Design Matters is produced for the TED Audio Collective by Curtis Fox Productions. The interviews are usually recorded at the Masters in Branding Program at the School of Visual Arts in New York City, the first and longest-running branding program in the world. The Editor-in-Chief of Design Matters Media is Emily Winand.

1:04:15Thank you.