Mauro Porcini

0:00The entire tech world started to shift towards minimalism and this very essential design aesthetic inspired by this mantra of form, follow, function. I'm proposing a new formula that evolves from form, follow, function to form and function, follow meaning.

0:23From the TED Audio Collective, this is Design Matters with Debbie Millman.

0:31On Design Matters, Debbie talks with some of the most creative people in the world about what they do, how they got to be who they are, and what they're thinking about and working on. On this episode, a conversation with Mauro Portini about technology and design, and about what a designer really does. If the technical skill is what defines you as a designer, maybe you're not a designer.

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1:53percent U.S.-based customer support, you'll stay connected and ready to bring your vision to life. Learn more at Spectrum.com slash business. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This podcast is supported in part by Bill, the intelligent finance platform that helps businesses and accounting firms scale with proven results. We often talk about the habits and systems that help people do their best work. For many leaders, that might include building processes that reduce friction and create clarity. That is exactly why so many finance leaders turn to Bill. With AI-powered automation, Bill isn't just moving money.

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3:06That's bill.com slash proven. Terms and conditions apply. See offer page for details. Mora Porcini has built a career at the intersection of business, design, and humanity. Born in Northern Italy, suspended between cultures and identities, he began his career with a restless curiosity that has carried him from Philips to 3M, then to PepsiCo, where he became the company's first ever chief design officer and helped embed design into the DNA of a global enterprise. In doing so, Morrow was recognized as one of Fortune magazine's 40 under 40, a fast company master of design, and one of the 50 most influential designers in America.

3:51Today, he is president and chief design officer at Samsung, the first role of its kind at that scale, where he is advancing a bold manifesto he has titled The Human Side of Technology. At a time when technology sits at the center of financial instability, digital toxicity, and existential anxiety, Mauro is asking profound questions about what technology can do, and he is providing some provocative and rather optimistic answers that we're all going to talk about today. Mauro Portini, welcome back to Design Matters. Thank you for having me, Debbie. Mara, let's talk a little bit about your origin story for those that might not have listened to our previous interviews.

4:39You grew up in a small town outside of Milan in Italy with two passions, the world of literature and philosophy, which was influenced by your mother, and the world of art, architecture, and drawing, which was influenced by your father. But you also described yourself as growing up in the middle, not fully northern, not fully southern, and suspended between identities. Did that early experience of cultural tension shape the way you design for global audiences today? I think it's a big, big part of who I am and therefore what I do. You call it tension because usually that's the definition when there are two opposites and you are there stuck in the middle.

5:26But paradoxically, I always found my comfort zone in the middle of those two opposites. And again, back then it was me growing up in the north from a family from the south. then he became me, designer in the world of business at the point that sometimes the business leaders look at me obviously as a designer, the creative, the alien that is landing on the planet of business and then other times I have the designers looking at me as the business person and this person that understands creativity is close to the world of creativity, obviously is the designer himself but is more belonging to the business world.

6:11And at the end of the day, I end up not belonging to one world or the other. Or I'm Italian, you can hear from my very heavy Italian accent, but I've been living 15 years in the United States. I was an alien in the United States, even though over the years I became also a citizen and New York today is still home. And I became an alien in my own country. And now I live in Seoul, in Korea, imagine. I'm even more of an alien there. But at the end, I feel a citizen of the world. I belong in any kind of situation. In those gray areas is where I define my identity. And so, you know, it's a very human need, the one of belonging.

6:55I mean, Maslow in his pyramid defined that need, that sense of belonging, you know, many years ago. I found my belonging in those gray areas, in those areas where you can define your label, define your identity, define in a very original and authentic way who you are, who you want to be, and what kind of contribution you can give to the world. You've said that now, decades into your career, you try to preserve the mindset of an apprentice. Did you approach your roles at running design at 3M and at Pepsi that way? Well, I always came into these companies with a lot of respect for the companies.

7:40They were big companies, extremely successful. I didn't come in with the arrogance of thinking, well, I'm a designer. I know what you need to do because we designers know better how to design products and you're not getting it either because you are a tech driven company or because you are a marketing driven, brand driven company. No, I always started from a position of profound respect for what they were able to achieve. I knew very well what I was bringing to the table. Obviously, the more years, the more experience, the more confidence I had in what I knew. But I always knew that I had so much to learn, so much to learn for a variety of different reasons.

8:26In the first experiences, it was obvious. I mean, when I started to work at 3M, I was very young. I was 27. I had so much to learn. I never worked in a corporation of that size, you know, in a stable way. You know, in Philips, I was less than a year. at the beginning of my career, there was all the world of technology to discover. In PepsiCo, the same. I'm an industrial designer. I never worked in the world of food and beverage. And I had to learn that industry, I had to learn the product category. I had to learn so much from the marketing community, from the brand community. And now Samsung, I'm mixing and blending the two dimensions, but there is so much to learn about the Korean culture, about a different way of doing innovation, of working.

9:13But beyond all of this, on top of what you can learn practically in your profession, there is the awareness that as human beings, we never end learning. I mean, there is so much. The more you learn, the more you realize that you know nothing. Socrates, thousands of years ago, was telling us already. The reality is that the more humble you are, the more you know that there is so much out there to learn as an apprentice once again. And the more you blend that anyway with a profound confidence about what you already know, but also with the ability and readiness to steer direction, to change direction.

9:59And again, confidence gives you that kind of ability. The more I think you can flex to the different situations, the more you can keep growing and not become sterile. So many people at a certain point with fame, success or certain achievements, they stop learning because they think, well, I made it. Now I know. And that's... That's the beginning of the end. Yes. What are you still learning and from whom? what I'm learning right now there is a lot that I'm learning but one of the things I'm learning the most is about myself you know I told you that I love the comfort zone of the grey areas but after 13 years in New York City, 15 in the United States with such a stable position like the one I had at PepsiCo with the success I had in the company the credibility I had in the company it was difficult to keep discovering yourself, to keep finding new aspect of yourself.

10:58Going to Korea, getting completely out of my comfort zone, bringing my family with me, my young kids, my wife, my three dogs, and the sense of responsibility that comes with bringing all these people out of their comfort zone to a completely different kind of culture and way of thinking, working, behaving, connecting. It's not easy. It's not easy. And so right now, when I face day after day, different behaviors, different ways of approaching design, innovation, business, sort of living, sometimes it's easy because it's inspiring and it's exactly, you know, what I wanted to do and it's really exciting.

11:44Other times instead is complicated because it's so different from what I'm used to. And in those moments that are complicated, you need to find strength in yourself, stability in yourself. You need to find your resilience. And what I know right now in my 50s is that that's growing. You know, that uncomfort is growing. And this is beautiful because even in the most difficult moment, I'm like, yes, I'm discovering new things about myself. And I'm learning how to react to things that don't make me comfortable. But it's exactly what I was looking for. And it's fantastic. At PepsiCo, you were embedding design into food, beverage, brand, and experience.

12:31Did you ever consider not taking the call from Samsung because of how much you had already established for yourself, for your career, your reputation, certainly the level of design excellence that you'd been recognized for? Did you ever worry that you might be leaving all of that behind for something that was completely uncertain? look fear of the unknown and the risk connected to that is human it's a problem because fear is a mechanism of self-defense right the nature or god gave us so of course i i thought is it the right choice and again because i have young kids when i in the middle of the decision my second kid was born.

13:23Literally, I was having conversations with Samsung while my son was coming to life. And so, of course, there is this sense of responsibility that is very, very strong. In the meantime, though, I am somebody that needs to keep innovating and inventing things and growing. So I knew that it wouldn't be easy to give up to this opportunity. So that was one reason I was not looking for a new job. I could have stayed at PepsiCo 20 more years and I would have generated new challenges for myself. Think about the challenges of that industry and sustainability, health and wellness, or even just pushing design as a driver of business growth and brand relevance in that industry, in that company.

14:17So I would have found my challenges to stay motivated. But again, a completely different kind of culture in a different country, in a different company, different industry, for sure, was really motivating. But there is also another reason. My passion as a child, my passion in university was consumer electronics. I did my thesis in consumer electronics in 1999 on wearable technologies. So on clothing that are smart with flexible screens and pins that look and see and hear what you see and what you hear and can record all this information in a virtual memory that back then were not calling the cloud, but it was what today is the cloud and so on and so forth, a variety of different products and objects that you wear enabled by technology.

15:13Back then was a dream. It was just, you know, a vision of the future. And I started to work in Philips on that vision of the future. And then life brought me to completely different directions. And what is 26 years later, I find myself in a company in a moment in time that gives me the possibility to translate those dreams into reality. But there is a big difference between the kid that graduated from school with that thesis on wearable technologies and what I am today is these two decades of experience on one side in the world of 3M and then with my own agency is experience in technology and really understanding how to leverage technology to create meaningful solutions for people.

16:03Then the other part of my journey is experiencing branding and experience and really understanding how to create something meaningful for people through those levers. And so right now I'm connecting back the two dimensions to really take the intuitions that I had many, many years ago and bring them to life. But with this awareness, with an experience, with a knowledge of how to do it that is much broader. It's so interesting. I first met you when you worked at 3M, and I remember when you got the design, the big design job at Pepsi, the design community was wondering, well, can he take his knowledge and expertise in a discipline that was very much about household goods at that time, you know, you did that gorgeous tape dispenser, and bring that alive to fast-moving consumer goods, and now you're moving from fast-moving consumer goods to shaping technology used by billions.

17:02Can I, you know, I'm sure you're about to ask me a question, but there is something. People tend to look at just the few years of experience you have and the company you've been working for before the next experience, right? So it's so paradoxical and sometimes it's funny how many people right now are like, oh, but it's coming from PepsiCo, consumer goods. They don't know you like I know you. I'm like, come on. I mean, if you look at my 26 years of work, literally 13 are in consumer goods, branding experience, and 13 are in tech. And tech is where everything started. It was my passion, it was my knowledge.

17:45And even in the 13 in consumer goods, tech was always a reference. every new technological product, new gadget, I will buy it right away, you know, to try, because it's exciting to me. And yes, but again, exactly what happened 13 years ago in PepsiCo, many people now are like, well, but it's coming from brand and consumer goods. Well, actually, no, now I have the two experiences. What changes when the object of design becomes as much about infrastructure when your work lives in people's homes and pockets and on their bodies? Is there a different way in which you approach that type of design as opposed to a fast-moving consumer goods, or do the tenants really remain very similar?

18:38I think there are a lot of similarities. What you need to do is to deeply understand the people you serve. And in consumer goods, there is a tendency that is probably driven by a culture of marketing or looking at people as consumers and focusing so much on the moment of purchase, what Procter & Gamble used to call the first moment of truth. It's so quaint now, right? But, you know, that moment is what often defines CPG, you know, that industry, because there is so much focus on what happened in Walmart, in Target, in the store. As an industrial designer, I've been trained to think about the user, you know, how people use those products.

19:23And so when I joined the world of CPG, when I entered the world of CPG, my mission was to remember everybody that we shouldn't look at people as consumers and think just about that first moment of truth, but focus on that second moment. Every other moment after that. Yeah, once it's in your house, what do you do then? So for me, that was through in-consumer goods and therefore is still even more relevant in a world where once you buy the product, you bring it home and you live with the product, sometimes a few years, sometimes decades. If you think of a refrigerator as an example of an oven or even TVs, you know, they have a long lifetime.

20:06But again, deeply understanding people, their needs, their wants, and creating real, authentic solutions, something that they really need, both functionally and emotionally. that's really what is important to do. And that's really the key formula to create relevant businesses, meaningful brands and sustainable growth for those companies. You have moved from the United States now to live and work in Korea, a very different cultural context from Italy, from New York, Minnesota. How has relocating shifted your perspective on leadership and hierarchy and creativity. You really are, as far as I know, the only president of design that I've ever heard of.

20:58It's a real new ceiling breaker for our discipline. How has your perspective changed? Well, I had to challenge many assumptions about how to be a leader. Really? Tell me how. My first challenge in my journey was the one of an Italian moving to America and trying to understand how to be a leader in America. And it took many years to figure out exactly how to protect my roots, my way of thinking and behaving, all the way to my body language and my passion. So how to protect them first and then later on leverage them without alienating the people I was interacting with. They had a very different kind of culture.

21:48And after a while, I found that balance. I found the ability to speak the language of business of America, of the United States, the ability to navigate the complexity of these corporations, the culture of these corporations, but being always myself, Being always this Italian with this thick accent and this weird way of dressing and this passion and the ability to talk about love in a boardroom and connect love to productivity and efficiency, as an example. Now in Korea, the body language is completely different. The Korean language obviously is very different than the English one. You know, here I was the one not speaking the English language and somehow trying to connect.

22:38Now I'm there and the language that is spoken in the company is Korean. And of course, with me, we interact in English, they interact in English, but it's not anymore the language of the company. There is a sense of hierarchy and roles and responsibilities that is very different than the American one and the European one. And so I'm trying to understand, I'm still in a phase of understanding how to be myself, how to be authentic, how to work in a super collaborative way, blending the definition of roles and responsibilities, but also respecting what works in that kind of culture. and try to understand how to inspire people without alienating them, how to find the right balance between change and respect for the incredible culture and business success that the company has.

23:35And so it's not easy. The company is really trying very hard to help me as well. And this is beautiful. In what way? How so? Well, they understand that, you know, to become more and more global you need to embrace more and more diversity. You know, I am the first president non-Korean in the history of the company, not just in design, in the history of the company. And so for them, it's something important that transcends the discipline of design, the function of design in the organization. They are betting on diversity. They are betting in bringing in people that think different. And they really want me to be successful in mixing my original point of view that is different from the one of the company historically, just because of the nature of the culture of the organization, with the one of the company.

24:30So we need, you know, myself with their help, we need to find the right balance between the two dimensions. And this is when, you know, you become more and more global. When you are able to blend different kind of point of views, diverse point of views into one original point of view. And this is, I think, what they're looking for in me, not just the design component, but the cultural component as well. Is there anything you've had to unlearn? What do you mean with unlearning? Well, you've had to learn about new ways of thinking and doing things. Have you had to stop doing certain things that you relied on in order to get a point across or to persuade people?

25:15Well, there is for sure one thing. I'm very passionate. This passion sometimes make people eventually even uncomfortable. I had to turn it down already. Maybe it's hard to imagine because I'm still very passionate. But I had to turn it down when I moved from Italy to the U.S. Because at a certain point, I realized that people may think they were almost aggressive. Instead, it's just our way of talking. is the passion that come out of everything we do. In Korea, I need to tone it down even more because the body language is really, really different. And so I need to understand how to still leverage the passion because I think it's been key in my journey.

26:03And I think it's going to be important also in Korea, in Asia in general. But I need to really make sure that it's tuned in the right way not to intimidate people around me because one of the key things in innovation is dialogue, is exchange. And when you are too passionate and when you are also confident, so this confidence together with passion, people may not feel comfortable in exchanging ideas, in building a dialogue. And so again, every culture reacts differently. You know, I'm Italian. think about the Latin American culture is very similar to mine. The American is different. The Asian is different.

26:48In Asia, different, you know, countries have different cultures. And so, you know, I'm learning how to be so passionate without losing my passion and communicating in a way that is tuned in the appropriate way, in the right way to be impactful in a positive way versus being alienating. It's for sure something I'm trying to learn. Sure. Recently, after arriving at Samsung, you penned something rather provocative, titled The Human Side of Technology, A Manifesto for a New Era of Innovation. You described technology as both admired and feared. Why do you think technology anxiety feels so acute right now?

27:32because in the age of AI and more and more in the age of robotics, because the robots are about to come, people are concerned that this kind of technology may start eroding human qualities. There are some people that arrive all the way to the fear of technology, the annihilation of human speech. We arrive to that kind of extreme. But in the middle, there is also very practical fear of losing my job. or if you have kids not knowing what is going to be the future for these kids in this world of technology. And so these are real fear. And that's why I think that the role of any company working in technology, as well as any government and policymakers, is the one of making sure that technology is developed at the service of humanity, that is tame to really create value for people, for humans.

28:34And we're not going after technology just because we can, but we should do it because we care. We don't go after technology because it's a driver of profit and power and wealth, but because it's a driver of progress for society. And so I think, especially the design community, You know, I'm a designer and what we learn at school is to serve people. We don't learn at school to grow a business or invent a new technology. We learn how to create something, a solution, could be a product, a brand, a service that solves some human needs and fulfills some human dreams. And so as a design community, I think we have an opportunity and a responsibility right now to elevate ourselves, become the voice of humanity in these companies of any kind.

29:28And for companies like mine, the one I work for, for Samsung, you know, to play a role to lead with humanity, to put people at the center of everything, to make sure that once again, technology is there serving the people, humans. And this is very, very important both for society, but I think right now is very important also to create at the end also business value for these companies. you have the vision for your business you have the plan and you just got handed a huge opportunity but is your business connectivity reliable enough to make a move spectrum business delivers fast reliable internet phone tv and mobile services so you're always connected when it matters most get connectivity packages built for your business with savings that keep your budget in check And with fast, reliable internet and 100 % U.S.-based customer support, you'll stay connected and ready to bring your vision to life.

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32:39You and I are almost, we're in the same generation. We're almost the same age. I'm a bit older. But I know that we both were very much a part of the move toward technology and design in the 80s and 90s. And back then, designers were aghast at the role that technology might have in design before we even knew what the full role was going to be. And there were immediate calls for the boycotting of technology and the continued use of wax machines and X-Acto blades and Ruby Lyft and so on and so forth. I was trained on a drafting table, so I witnessed that firsthand. What we didn't anticipate back then when the beloved designers of our time at that time were all lamenting the potential loss of jobs, the potential loss of our careers, was in fact how technology was going to actually create hundreds of thousands of jobs for designers and move design from really a fringe discipline into the center of creativity.

33:58we're hearing a lot of the same fears again maybe this time they'll be more prevalent maybe they won't I'm wondering what your thoughts are on the repetitive nature of these fears that always seem to come to the forefront at the beginning of a new era of technology look we live in a sort of paradox as humans On one side, nature change, evolve is the law of the world. You know, it's been there forever. It's history of humanity and actually even before humanity. On the other side, though, we have this instinct to protect the status quo because it's linked to our instinct to be safe. So every time there is change, change is inevitable.

34:54but we resist to change as human beings because again, it's a form of self-defense. It's a paradox because the best self-defense is actually to change and evolve and adapt. So we live in this paradox. So these fears that humans, designers had for technology are perfectly humans once again. They are part of our nature. We need to learn, I think, as innovators to embrace change, to embrace changes in technology, in the world around us, and see them as incredible opportunities. And this is really, really important if we want to innovate in the best possible way. Several years ago in the Harvard Business Review, you stated that design and innovation are exactly the same thing.

35:44Do you still feel that way? I profoundly believe that design and innovation are the same thing. You know, designers start always in the same way, understanding people, their needs, their wants, their dreams, and then creating a solution for those needs and those wants. The solution is innovative by definition because it changes the status quo. It modifies something was already existing and evolved in something different or eventually create something from scratch that didn't exist before. So by definition, an act of design is an act of innovation. There is no design without innovation. You argue that human-centered innovation is not optional.

36:25It is the only sustainable competitive advantage in a world where barriers to entry have collapsed. Is human-centered design now less about philosophy and more about survival? Well, you need to be focused on human needs if you want to innovate for real. the big difference between today and the past is that in the past if you were a big organization a multinational corporation you could build these barriers to entry and build a dynamic balance with your competitors in your industry around products eventually even if those products were not ideal for the people you are serving. Today, in a world where those barriers to entry are down, driven by the wind of globalization, new technology, digitization, in this kind of world, the most powerful competitive advantage you can build for your company is human-centricity, is a culture that's obsessed around the creation of real value for humans, a culture where your designers, but also your marketers, your finance people, your HR, every function in the company feel sick in the stomach if your product is not ideal, if it's not the best for your consumers, if it's not the most beautiful, the most functional, the most sustainable, the most ethically viable.

37:58you want a culture of people that even if that product and the brand is extremely profitable and successful, they're not satisfied until the product is also ideal for people. And once again, this is more important than ever, because in this moment in time, finally, human value is aligning with financial value. In this moment in time, you can't protect your mediocrity in any form of way with your barriers to entry because in this moment in time, new startups, new innovators, new entrepreneurs can come and attack you exactly in your area of weakness. So it's survival for your company. It's survival for humanity because you need products that are really, really good for people.

38:46So I think there is a lot of negativity often about this moment in time, but actually I think it's a very positive moment in time. And earlier you asked me about the designers and the fear of technology. You know, we should remember what designers do. Designers are not defined by the media that they use. We're not designers just because we know how to use a CAD program or Photoshop or in the past because we knew how to use a Pantone or different kind of technologies. What defines us as designers is our ability to imagine incredible solutions to human needs, to imagine incredible chairs or mobile phones or posters or pieces of communication or Internet sites.

39:38It all starts with your mind, your heart, your critical thinking, your ability to decodify those unarticulated needs that are out there and transform them in solutions that are meaningful, inspiring, relevant. So then, yes, we need to take them to life. And that's why we learn the technical skills of taking them to life. But if the technical skill is what defines you as a designer, maybe you're not a designer. You know, if in the future I can be so much faster through artificial intelligence to transform what I have in my mind into something concrete, that's amazing. The world will still need your mind, your heart, your sensitivity, your empathy, your imagination, your creativity, your ability to imagine those solutions.

40:30AI won't do it for us. And even though AI may inspire us with certain solutions, it won't replace us. I think the power right now of AI is that we go to our projects. We start with this blank page in front of us with a lot of our biases, our culture, our experience. You know, I am Mauro, you are Debbie, and we have an history. We learn in a certain way. we had a certain kind of experiences. So when we go to the project, we are biased by our history. Now, how you break those biases? You do research. You talk with people. You travel. You do as much as possible to open your mind and infiltrate your biases, your experience, what you know, your knowledge with something different.

41:21Well, AI can do exactly that. But in an exponential way, AI go to a problem with a completely different kind of background, without your biases, maybe with other biases. AI may have biases. The developers of AI are trying to remove those biases. We are very familiar with this topic. But no matter what biases AI may have or not have, the perspective is different. So the value is not in what AI generates. It's not in what I generate. The value, once again, is in the dialogue between me and AI. It used to be me and other people. There is still that dialogue. We must preserve the dialogue with other human beings.

42:02But now you have a new actor in the mix with a lot of knowledge that can access any kind of information. So that's an amazing value. So both for inspiration, because it can break your biases, generate new ideas if you combine what you think with what AI thinks. And then obviously the execution as well. If I don't need anymore to use a CAD program or a software of any kind or any kind of manual tool to create something, I can do it in a much faster way. Fantastic. Now, it means that schools of design will need to teach even more critical thinking, imagination, creativity, the ability to solve solutions, because that is what is going to define the design profession of the future.

42:47It's not anymore. It was already not anymore now, but even more in the future, the craft and actually the craft, yes, but in terms of thinking, but the ability to do things, the tools shouldn't define us and won't define us in the future. And, you know, AI is still not going to ever really be able to feel something. I saw a wonderful meme on social media a couple of days ago that we're not going to really have to worry about AI until they can experience jealousy, rejection, and failure. And, you know, I think there's something really important about those emotions and how they do fuel creativity.

43:24Do you think AI is not going to be able to feel that? I don't know. We will see. Do you think the chat GPT is going to be jealous of Gemini? That's an interesting question. I think that sooner or later, you will be able to reproduce human feelings to that level. Butterflies in the stomach falling in love? It may. It may. You know, at the end of the day, what happens in our body, there is something magic that we can't explain. But from a pure scientific standpoint, it's chemistry, right? And physics. and biology yeah all of these then recreate something that is impossible to define it's so magic that that often we explaining with god or you know in in ways that transcends humanity and what we know but if ai is able learning how we feel how we behave how we think to recreate those feelings, the question, and we go into, you know, real philosophy, can they become human, you know, as human as human or not?

44:41I don't know. I don't have the answer. But my hope is that we drive AI in a direction in which even if you become as human as humans, it's going to still be at the service of humanity. So if AI is able to learn, as you say, jealousy, together with empathy, together with fear, together with a series of other emotions, and those emotions fuel creativity and make the solutions more and more human. And now all of this is used at the service of humanity. Then why not? imagine AI being able to do a lot of things that we don't want to do as humans at work or, you know, in a variety of different circumstances so that we can be even more human.

45:31So that while AI does certain things that requires human qualities, I can spend time with my kids. I can go run in a park. I can go ski or swim or read a book. So this is really what we need to talk about, what we need to focus on. It's not AI is going to be or not, you know, as human as possible, or is, you know, the fear of AI being too human. If AI become really human and therefore is able to do everything we do, even better, and it free us from tasks that we don't need to do unless we really want, That's wonderful for humanity. But the problem is we need to make sure that AI and the technology is always developed at the service of humanity.

46:22So what does that mean exactly? What does at the service of humanity mean? It means that it needs to be a tool to solve specific problems to help people. And we often talk about people and problems and dreams. Once again, I mentioned it multiple times today, the hierarchy of needs of Maslow has been always for me for decades the most important framework to understand people and to understand how I could help people and solve their problems. I translated this hierarchy of needs now that I'm in Samsung in four categories that are relevant to the world of tech, the world of Samsung, our portfolio products.

47:08but if you want they're relevant to any company any brand any situation in general the categories are live longer live better live loud live on so i want to help people live longer better louder on what does it mean live longer is all about physical and mental health and is about safety. So creating products that help you in all of these things in our world, wearables, technology that monitor your body for your physical and mental health, or a variety of different technology that monitor your house, your loved ones, your pets. So that's all the word of Live Longer. That is the base of the Maslow Pyramid is survival and safety.

47:54Live better is about using technology to work on your behalf, ideally, or to work with you to become more productive. But translated, that means I want to free up your time so that you can do whatever is most relevant and most important to you. And technology will work on your behalf. Think about implication here. I'm using technology so that eventually you can do things that have nothing to do with technology. You know, when technology can do work on your behalf, as I said earlier, go run in the park, leave your mobile phone at home, leave even your wearable at home if you don't need to monitor your body in the moment.

48:35Be free, reconnect with the people you love, with nature. So it's amazing when technology can enable you to do something like this. That's what I mean with at the service of humanity. Over the course of history, human history, We have, as a species, constantly made improvements to the way that we live, whether it's through the agricultural revolution or the industrial revolution, for ways in which humans could have more leisure time. And yet, we don't really ever take that opportunity and fulfill it. What we do with that extra time tends to be more work. And I've been really thinking about that a lot lately as I was preparing for our interview today.

49:22And I was thinking about live longer, live better, live loud, live on. I was thinking about the fact that humans have been in pursuit for technologies to improve the quality of our lives, to let us do more of the things that we love for millennia. And yet, when we get that time, we seem to fill it with more work to do. Where do you think that comes from? Or do you disagree? I mean, do you feel like you're seeing more people do things like that? I agree, but I don't think it's driven by individuals. It's driven by the business world and the need of producing more. And that's why I think we are living in a magic moment and an optimistic, and I think it's a positive moment of dramatic change and transformation.

50:10because when you will have machines, robots, and AI that can do the work of many, many people, yes, we'll be able to produce new kind of jobs, but there is a high probability that a lot of jobs won't exist anymore, and therefore we'll need to rethink our society and the idea of working. and this is this will be the job not of companies and brands and corporations but it will be the role of policy makers and governments and nations that we need to rethink how you sustain a population even when they don't work full time and so that's the most beautiful design project of the future to understand how you redesign a society thinking about how to drive happiness in this society, how to make people happy, even if they don't have their jobs and the idea of working as it is today.

51:14You know, in our work, we find a lot of happiness. You know, at the end of my book, I talk about how to design happiness. And there are three dimensions for designing your happiness and achieving your happiness. The first one is the definition of your identity. That starts since you are a kid. I have a four years old and a one year old, and they're there already now. You see that they're defining their identity. So this is a journey, you know, that is lifelong. But often when we arrive to our jobs and we start to work, we use that job and that title to define our identity. I mean, in New York City, the first question that they ask you is, what do you do, right?

51:57Right, always. Right away, they define you, they label you with your job. But again, many of us define ourselves through your job. The mistake is when your job is the only thing that defines you. Because the moment you lose your job, you're lost. You lose your identity. So work-life balance, super important. Not putting everything just on your job to define yourself, very important. The second dimension is the connection with others. and so spending time with others giving love and receiving love back but you give love in a selfless way you receive it back just because of the nature of the people close to you your family your friends your close community at work you find a lot of this how many people find a work their significant other and or their friends and their community and then finally the third dimension is doing something bigger than you.

52:55That at the end is that thing that gives purpose to your life, meaning to your life and make you immortal. So often we arrive there later in life because it's when we start to understand that we're not eventually physically immortal. And so we try to defeat death by doing something that is bigger than us. It could be, you know, from inventing a new product, a change of life, the life of people, all the way to a simple act of generosity for a stranger. And people will remind you like that kind person forever. And the work give you often that sense of purpose. So in the work where you won't need to work, but still, the governments will give you the possibility to sustain yourself.

53:42So you'll be happy. The base of Maslow is safe. You know, you're there. You exist. How do you define your identity? How do you find ways to connect with others? And now you give purpose to your life without the traditional interpretation of a job. That's, I think, is one of the most beautiful design projects of the next decade. it. You've talked about how human-centered innovation is first and foremost an ethical and moral responsibility. Have you faced resistance when you position design in moral terms in the various organizations you've been a part of? I don't talk too much about that. For a simple reason, in business, these companies, they're there to make a profit.

54:34I mean, it's the nature of the business and it's okay, it's good. I mean, it's the nature of the entity, the industry and the world business. So you need to talk the language of business and you need to show these companies how whatever you do, drive business. the ethical responsibility is what human beings in these businesses have one and two is what the organization the corporation decides to have because it's a responsibility that these companies have especially if they're big is a decision the more you create a connection between the business value the financial value on one side and the ethical responsibility on the other the more powerful the equation is, but mostly the more you can push that ethical responsibility.

55:28So what I pitch is for people, not just designers, but for people in these companies, big and small, to have that ethical compass, to have that need that is very moral, to start from that in a very, very authentic way, not as a lever for business, but because you profoundly believe in it. First step. Second, learn the language of business. Understand what is relevant to these companies from a financial standpoint, from a business standpoint. Third step, try to link the two. Now, it may have been difficult, more difficult in the past. But today, once again, in a world where financial value is aligning to human value because you can't protect mediocrity with your barriers to entry anymore, it's easier.

56:19It's easier. But a lot of people are not understanding these alignments and they are not leveraging the business opportunity. You know, this is when I talk to the business world is leverage the business opportunity. When I talk to my friends and people I know that care, I'm like, this is an incredible ethical opportunity we have right now. As a leader working on a global scale, you've made impact in all of the companies you've worked at, worked with. You're now at the very beginning of your journey at Samsung. And I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say that there are a lot of people looking at you to see what you are going to do next.

57:04How do you introduce a new aesthetic respectfully? You know, if you try to define what respect is, it starts with empathy, deeply understanding the entity that is in front of you. Let's say it's a person or it's a brand or it's a company. So respect starts with empathy. And this empathy mixed with knowledge, you know, studying profoundly the history of this person or this brand or this company, give you awareness about what is authentic for the company or the person. So you start with that, you understand where the company or the brand or the person is coming from, and then you try to understand how to evolve it in an authentic way.

57:51So what I did when I joined Samsung, the first thing was to study the history of the company and the history of design and products in the company as well. and try to understand both from a purpose standpoint, from a branding standpoint, and from a product standpoint, how to evolve it in a way that is relevant for a world that is evolving, is changing, is transforming, but doing it in a very authentic way for the company. So in more practical and pragmatic, if you look at the history of the company, first of all, this is a company that's been changing and transforming continuously. It started in the 30s as a trading company selling dry fish, noodles, and flour.

58:40And then it started to evolve with the evolution of the country of Korea. So back then, it was literally feeding the poor people of Korea. They were farmers. The country was really, really, really poor. And then as the country was evolving and the level of wealth was increasing, the company moved with the country and started when the Korean could afford the first appliances Samsung would provide the first appliances and an accessible cost you know not the premium tier but an accessible entry level tier washing machines, televisions refrigerators, solvents and then with the evolution of the country the country becoming one of the most iconic countries in the world with K-pop and this new trend and fashion Yeah, all the world of fashion, music, film, combined obviously with the world of technology.

59:37You know, the country now is up there and the company is there as well. And so, first of all, change, transformation is in the DNA of the company. And then from a pure design standpoint, the company in the 90s, in the early 2000s, used a very expressive design language. He was charged with emotions. And then around 2008, 2009, the entire tech world started to shift towards minimalism and this very essential design aesthetic inspired by this mantra of form for low function. Brown was an example of that kind of aesthetic. An aesthetic that was challenged in the 80s by companies like Olivetti, by Memphis.

1:00:27You know, in my Italy, Ettore Sozza, St. Memphis, were grown challenging the more traditional aesthetic of the Bauhaus and bringing back colors, emotions, shapes. So if you think about this tension, it was a healthy tension. It was a tension that reflected the diversity of humanity. There are people that may prefer minimalism, people that prefer maximalism, and a lot of people that love things in between. The tech world lost somehow that diversity, the variety, and converged towards this world of minimalism. This is not the case in other industries. In fashion, you have brands that are very minimalistic and brands that are maximalist and everything in between.

1:01:11The same in architecture. in automotive, in lighting, in furniture. In tech, instead, there is this homogeneity, this uniformity of the Zen language. So what I'm trying to do through Samsung is moving from minimalism to what I call an expressive design language that is nothing else than a reflection of human diversity, where there is space for minimalism, but there is space also for other kinds of languages. And this is going to be more and more relevant in a world where technology will give us the possibility to flex and adapt the products, the user interfaces that we use through the use of AI as an example to what is meaningful for us.

1:01:58I'm proposing a new formula that evolves from form follow function to form and function follow meaning. and the meaning of this formula is essentially in a world where AI will give you the possibility, for instance, to totally customize the user interface of your phone or your TV on the basis of what is meaningful to you. Form and function will be balanced to achieve the perfect meaning for you and will be different than the balance that they will find to achieve what is meaningful to me. Or in hardware, is about customizations of products and the ability to really personalize products as much as possible.

1:02:39And new technologies are giving us that opportunity more and more and more. So to answer your question, this is a company that used to have a very diverse and expressive portfolio and language of design. A company that has been changing and transforming and evolving continuously, also in dramatic ways. So the idea that the company can keep evolving and transforming is totally authentic. The idea that he can embrace again this more expressive design language is rooted in the DNA of the company itself. So this is what respect and change in action looks like. The initial introduction of minimalism in tech solved a lot of problems at the time.

1:03:23But I think as we've evolved and as culture has evolved, it's created other new ones. Can you talk a little bit about how the decisions that you're making now for more human-centered design, more expressive design, might show up in the ways that you're making things? First of all, in the world of tech, it takes time to develop products. So a variety of these products will come to market in the coming months or years. we were able to launch already at the Consumer Electronics Show a couple of televisions that were going into the right. Yes, Roxanne wants one. We can talk after the show. But, you know, already there we launched television with the same technology but different designs.

1:04:16That sounds kind of obvious but it's not at all in the industry where usually you have a specific technology and you have this frameless design and it is what it is. So the idea that you can have different kind of designs because your living room is different than mine is somehow, you know, innovative in that industry. But again, this is the very, very first step in that direction. In Milan Design Week, we shared a series of concepts that visualize the kind of aesthetic, this idea of variety and diversity in the portfolio so that you can have different kind of languages attached to different kinds of products.

1:04:57Now, one of the key challenges of doing something like this is how you build your design identity with a portfolio where products look different from one another. And this is something I've been wondering for a while. And the answer is that if I really want to be human-centered and if for instance Debbie your needs are different than mine if your living room is different than mine why do I need to force on you one aesthetic why can't I give choice to people why can't I build therefore a portfolio that give choice to people either because there is flexibility in the product as an example I mentioned earlier AI is gonna totally customized user interfaces for people or because there is flexibility in the hardware.

1:05:56So customization of products. We have this new TV where you can customize the frame and we used to have it also in the past, the frame TV. So we are launching a new model with a different approach. But again, customizations of products. And this happened in fashion. You go to Nike.com and you can totally build your shoe from scratch, just as an example. You can do that with cars too. Why can't you do that with televisions? Exactly. And then all the way to in the portfolio, you can have multiple choices of different kind of designs for different kind of needs. Now, if you do this, there is no way you can build an identity through your products.

1:06:36So the identity is going to be built in our world, first of all, through the branding on the product. So we need to be smart about how we brand the products. and then it's going to be built through the brand identity in visual communication and then it's going to be built through the experience in retail, events, or any time you experience the brand and then what is linking everything together, the glue of everything is the brand purpose, the philosophy, the vision. Now, this is more common in other industries, Like in fashion, you know, even though you have a language, if you buy Prada or Gucci or many other brands, they offer you products that are super minimalistic.

1:07:24And then they go all the way to different kind of languages within the same brand, the same portfolio. But in tech is not the habit. And so you can choose. You can be one of those brands and those companies with a very, very clear identity. or you can be a company with a product identity that is very diverse. Olivetti in my Italy was the example of this. Great diversity. But then you link it all through your philosophy, your vision, your purpose. And then once again, your experience in retail and then your visual communication. Technology seems to be privileging the screen. Do you see technology evolving so that we are looking equally at the eye and the body as well as the screen?

1:08:15What do you mean we're looking at the eye and the body? That we are... We just don't look at the screen, we look at the people in front of us. And as well, the aesthetic experience is as important as what we're looking at. So the aesthetic around the experience is as important as the experience. But look, we are very visual animals, but obviously we have five senses. And actually, if you look at the etymology of the word aesthetics, it is what is perceived by the five senses, not just by one sense that is the sight. This is very important, for instance, in the world of product design, because you look at things, what we call aesthetics, but the reality is that you decide the quality of what you look at also through the other senses.

1:09:07As an example, the sound of a product, for instance, the door of a car when it closes, depending on the sound, you have a perception of quality or lack of quality. When you touch a material, if it's cold, it's metal, if it's warm, is plastic, by touching it, immediately you have a perception of quality or lack of quality. So we use all the senses. So aesthetic, as it was used by the Greek philosopher, Aristotle, Plato, was exactly this, what is perceived by the five senses. So I think you need all the senses. So you will always need screens. Now, the screen of the future could be an hologram. The screen of the future could be something flexible on your clothing that doesn't look as a screen anymore, but there will be always space for this visual interaction.

1:09:58What we need to make sure though, and I think is where you are going with your question, is that this screen is not what focuses all our attention. We need to make sure that we interact with the world surrounding us from people to nature to everything in between in the most meaningful way in the most human way and we need technology there once again helping us enabling us in this kind of interaction and so thinking about the wearables that are about to come they're already there but you know they will grow more and more in the coming years The wearables for sure will help us freeing up our attention from a screen looking around.

1:10:46Glasses, as an example, will give us the possibility of still looking at people and things and nature. But having all the information, eventually AI and the cloud and technology can give you to amplify that experience. So that's just one example, but earphones, earbuds, you know, with the eye will give us the possibility to be our companion, our mentors. And then I can still look, actually, I will finally be able to look more at the world surrounding me with an audio device that is helping me navigate in the world, both with knowledge and facts and data and information, as well as also through.

1:11:31an emotional engagement. I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with movement and texture and sound and even temperature and how they become part of your new design vocabulary. I have one last question for you. Five years from now, what design decision do you hope billions of people can feel grateful for? In my journey or in general in society? I was thinking more in your journey, but I'm going to take the opportunity to say both. Well, this has been also a theme of my entire professional journey. It's more about this focus on human centricity than on a specific product. So the design decision that I've been pushing for many, many years, and now in this industry, in this company, in this moment of time, is more relevant than ever, is this idea that we need to keep focusing on people.

1:12:39But why is more relevant than ever? Because in the age of artificial intelligence, reminding the world that humanity is the center, that we need a moral compass, an ethical compass, that we need to put technology at the service of humanity is probably the most important decision that I can take, the most important design decision I can take. But if it's just me or even it's just Samsung, it's not enough. So what I hope, even through platforms like the one that you're giving me right now, is the ability to reach as many designers as possible, as many innovators, entrepreneurs, and remind them that we have a responsibility in this moment of time.

1:13:24You know, the world is changing, it's transforming and can go in different directions. is up to us, innovators of today, designers of today, entrepreneurs of today, to make sure that it's going in the right direction. So I hope that this decision is not Mauro or Samsung decision, but is a collective decision, starting with our design community and then beyond the design community of putting people first and taming technology, AI, robotics, and anything between at the service of humanity. Mero Porcini, thank you so much for making so much work that matters. And thank you for joining me today on Design Matters.

1:14:11Thank you for having me, Debbie. This is the 21st year we've been podcasting Design Matters, and I'd like to thank you for listening. And remember, we can talk about making a difference, we can make a difference, or we can do both. I'm Debbie Melvin, and I look forward to talking with you again soon. Design Matters is produced for the TED Audio Collective by Curtis Fox Productions. The interviews are usually recorded at the Masters in Branding Program at the School of Visual Arts in New York City, the first and longest running branding program in the world. The editor-in-chief of Design Matters Media is Emily Weiland.

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1:16:50Usually we imagine a portrait being drawn in someone's living room or in an art studio. But how would you view the portrait differently if you knew it was drawn in an active war zone? Someone's telling you this sort of heartbreaking story and you're trying to record or relate something that you've seen in their face onto a page. That's my role, to inform and offer dignity and connect one side of the world with the other. Discover the moving stories of the remarkable people that reportage artist George Butler hand draws as they live through humanitarian crises and more. Listen in on the Fellow Fridays series only on TED Talks Daily.