In short
“Inner Map” for understanding and transforming inner experience while running—differentiating pain vs discomfort, pleasure vs pain, and how “dialogue” (self-talk) shifts across mind, emotion/relationships, and the physical body/earth.
Key claims
pain is often protection/fear; discomfort can be chosen and explored consciously; “who’s talking to who?” reveals egoic vs heart-centered self; inner self-talk can be second-person (“you’ve got this”) to reduce harsh self-judgment; feelings don’t need to be rationalized—just felt; other people in sport act as a “catalyst” that brings up emotions (envy, shame, joy) that can be observed; in training, control “attitude, effort, behavior” rather than outcomes; heart-rate can help trust the body beyond the mind; physical grounding (sound of feet, senses) can quiet dialogue and enable flow/oneness.
Guests
Ryan Willms and Ryan Lynch (co-hosts/participants). Backgrounds: spiritual contemplation and endurance running; one references designing a run retreat t-shirt, marathon program coaching/group runs, and sports-psych style inner dialogue; the other emphasizes heart-centered awareness, meditation/flow, and spiritual framing (e.g., Michael Singer, Jesus-like paradoxes).
Notable examples
10-mile marathon-program group run in LA humidity where discomfort became enjoyable by shortening recoveries; mushroom journey foot cramp reframed as “I am no one experiencing”; using heart rate zone 2 when others pass; “Charlie Mike” team accountability phrase; listening to footfalls on gravel/road to drop into earth connection.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOReflections on Episode One
0:45 to 2:30
Discussion on the feedback and intentions set out for the podcast.
“And so in the spirit of that, we thought it'd be kind of cool to just talk to some of the things that people said in response to the first episode.”
Exploring Pain and Discomfort
2:30 to 6:10
Investigation into pain versus discomfort in running and life.
“And, you know, I think like the idea of hermetic stress, right?”
Inner Dialogues and Their Importance
6:10 to 11:24
Introduction of inner dialogues as a theme and their impact on running and relationships.
“I'm like, well, this actually feels good.”
Mapping Inner Experiences
11:24 to 14:00
Discussion on the different layers of dialogue within ourselves and their significance.
“exploring this and like coming up with like the design for it and the idea for it and thinking about like dialogues how does this like kind of ethos or theme of dialogues like go into a running experience like this.”
Exploring Inner Dialogue Basics
14:00 to 16:32
Discover how the speaker perceives their inner dialogue when not training or racing.
“Do you have a, how would you describe your baseline inner dialogue, but you're not racing, you're not training.”
The Impact of Context on Inner Dialogue
16:32 to 18:42
Learn how the context of racing or training influences one's inner dialogue.
“And then can you catch it and come back, you know?”
The Power of Self-Talk in Endurance Sports
18:42 to 21:26
Explore how different forms of self-talk can impact performance and motivation.
“And so how aware of that can you become?”
Identifying Voices in Our Inner Dialogue
21:26 to 24:13
Understand the dynamics between the inner critic and the supportive self during performance.
“And I'm not somebody who reads science, but I have, like, heard that positive inner self talk is beneficial performance-wise.”
Beyond the Dialogue: Exploring Deeper Awareness
24:13 to 28:00
Discuss the concept of existence beyond inner dialogue and the nature of consciousness.
“um, that's, that's a really interesting and beautiful opportunity to connect with that, that we've always been, you know, and, and hold the sort of young self.”
Chasing the Quiet Mind
28:00 to 29:06
Explore the inner dialogue during endurance sports and the pursuit of peace.
Show all 28 chapters
Finding Flow in Everyday Tasks
29:06 to 30:29
Discuss the concept of flow state and how it can be achieved in daily activities.
“And I don't think you're alone in that for sure.”
Interrogating the Self
30:29 to 31:15
Techniques for exploring the mind and self-dialogue during exercise.
“And so it's just like, I can just like drop in and it's just nothing and everything at once.”
Shifting Perception in Pain
31:15 to 33:31
Learn how to change perception of discomfort during physical challenges.
“Like if it's all I, I, I, can you try speaking as in you, you know, and see what happens there.”
Controlling the Controllables
33:31 to 35:55
Understanding what can be controlled in sports and life to reduce suffering.
“Cause it's like the more fear we are feeling like, Oh, it's going to get me.”
The Power of Attitude and Response
35:55 to 37:51
Explore the importance of attitude and response in facing challenges.
“And I, yeah, I agree with those and it's, but it's also, it's very challenging to be like, well, I'm basically not in control of anything, which means I'm helpless.”
Evaluating Personal Fulfillment
37:51 to 40:09
Discuss the heart's role in evaluating personal effort and fulfillment.
“Cause outcomes is all like mental attachment and that can lead to identification and suffering very quickly, very quickly, you know?”
Navigating Self-Identity and Stories
40:09 to 42:02
Examine how personal stories and identity influence our experiences in life.
“Like, okay, now next time when that fear arises, right?”
Exploring Personal Stories and Emotions in Sport
42:02 to 48:05
Discover how our personal narratives impact our emotions and relationships in sports.
“So it's definitionally related to other.”
The Complexities of Competition and Self-Reflection
48:05 to 55:01
Learn how competition reveals deeper feelings and beliefs about ourselves.
“It can bring up such a distinct feeling.”
Accountability and Timing in Team Dynamics
55:01 to 56:08
Examine the importance of timing in conversations and maintaining accountability within a team.
The Journey of Self-Realization
56:08 to 58:28
Exploring the emotional journey of self-realization, including the resistance to shame and the unexpected ways healing manifests.
“And then the following two days, all these things kept coming up that were like evoking shame.”
Connecting with the Earth
58:28 to 1:01:26
Techniques to enhance physical awareness and connection to the earth during running or other activities.
“or see the abundance you already have that maybe you're not seeing.”
Integration of Distinct Levels
1:01:26 to 1:05:38
Understanding the integration of emotional, mental, and physical levels for holistic well-being.
“and I think like, if we can drop into that, like it's really can be quite a portal to that flow state, to that, like oneness experience.”
The Paradox of Enlightenment
1:05:38 to 1:10:05
Discussing the fears surrounding enlightenment and how truth can untangle complex emotional knots.
“And so everyone comes from all over to try to like pull apart every single piece of this, just as we do with our internal dialogue and our relationship with others.”
The Knot of the Ego
1:10:05 to 1:11:05
Explore how surrendering the need to control can lead to healing.
“Like my son has gotten really into playing with string and he like ties up his cars.”
Fear of Missing Out vs. Fear of Finding Out
1:11:05 to 1:11:57
Discuss the concepts of FOMO and FOFO and their implications on self-discovery.
“And be willing to see where that takes you, right?”
The Nature of Being
1:11:57 to 1:13:11
Contemplate the idea of simply being and its connection to truth and goodness.
Aligning with Truth
1:13:11 to 1:13:39
Learn how to identify misalignment with truth and foster goodness in life.
“And so when we feel bad, something is just not in alignment.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:03Ryan Willms:All right, welcome back to Dialogues. I'm going to dive into episode two with myself, Ryan Willms, and Ryan Lynch on the other side. Good to see you.
0:14Ryan Lynch:Good to see you as well. Yeah.
0:17Ryan Willms:So, where are we starting today?
0:21Ryan Lynch:Well, I think an interesting place to start would be speaking to like what we heard back like the reverb of of the the first dialogue i think you know one of the intentions we set out with this was creating a space for these conversations not just between us but between others you know i think you know funnily enough when when you think of the word dialogue i i learned in preparing for this episode that it actually does mean you know more than two people um it's technically a greek greek word right dia and so this is i where people mistake it as di so it's actually dia so it means through between or across and then of course logo so like the word or reason but what's interesting is that because the prefix is dia it actually points to a speech flowing across a multitude of participants regardless of how many people are involved.
1:23Ryan Lynch:And so in the spirit of that, we thought it'd be kind of cool to just talk to some of the things that people said in response to the first episode. And I feel like one of the ones that came to me was this idea of pain versus discomfort, right? And so, And this is, I think, something we'll also explore a little bit today. But I should also say it's a very runner thing to say that we're going to classify what is actually pain versus discomfort. And so, yeah, I think that's another one that came up. It was like, is running the pursuit of pain or is it the pursuit of discomfort? Or which pain are we talking about?
2:06Ryan Lynch:Are we talking about physical pain or are we talking about emotional pain? um yeah there were some interesting conversations maybe around the difference of what that looks like i think the other thing that um we heard of course of course is that running is also a pursuit of pleasure i mean that the running high is no secret uh there's there can be very fun experiences running we know that uh we'll definitely talk about that too and then the final one which i'm actually, I don't think we've talked about, but I've, I'm curious what, what this spurs in you, but was this idea of like pain is protection and there can be something found specifically in endurance sports where, um, the pursuit of pain is like a way of controlling the pain that one experiences.
2:58Ryan Lynch:And, um, I just be curious, maybe what that spurs for you or like what advice you'd give to someone who um maybe trying to control their pain through going going directly
3:15Ryan Willms:at it over and over again yeah it's interesting um i don't know why the pain is protection idea like just gave me the visual of like uh like a car like rpms going up and like going into the red you know and it's like it's kind of like a warning you know and i think i think most people's minds have like put the red like around like two or three rpms whereas it can actually go up to like six or seven and it's not going to damage anything but there's a lot further you can go into it so So my sense is like, yeah, I mean, fear is the dominant frequency of our culture and society, I would say, you know?
4:01Ryan Willms:And so how do we manage that, right? And how do we avoid it? And, you know, I think like the idea of hermetic stress, right? And it's interesting because when we, like a lot of us are choosing running or you could be choosing, a yoga honestly you could be choosing a cold plunge or a sauna and you're like going potentially pretty deep into discomfort but like when we have the choice to choose it we can go further into it we're a lot more fragile when it comes out of nowhere and so I think a lot of the time we are like choosing it to try to get familiar with it or comfortable or push ourselves but we're not necessarily like taking that lesson and spreading it around the rest of our lives because we might still be very fragile in relationship or with money or these other things and so I think like whatever we're doing like my my hope and intention is just to bring more conscious awareness and curiosity to it because I think pleasure and pain are kind of two sides of the same coin, right?
5:14Ryan Willms:They're just experiences that we feel through the body. And so like there is both, you know, and I think, you know, even just all your, the questions you brought up and the comments you heard, right, is also illustrates just the limitation of human language. And, you know, there's the saying, like a picture says a thousand words, but like a word means a hundred different things to different people as well. You know, if I talk about pain to you or somebody and they've had experienced childbirth, you know, or if they've broken their beamer in half and the bone shot out of it, you know, or if they've had heartbreak or if they lost their job or a parent, like pain just means so many different things in so many different ways physically and emotionally to different people.
6:06Ryan Willms:and those often get kind of coupled together when we go through a traumatic painful event and so yeah I think like you know a theme of this this episode too will be like differentiation and I think we kind of all have to do that for ourselves you know I can't tell you what pain is and you can't tell me what pleasure is right like we can only know that experience through our bodies and I think sometimes running can be an interesting way to kind of pull those apart as well and be like oh this is feels good you know I like this does that you does that mental shift change from pleasure to pain you know um I think like something that I've learned is um you know I've been like afraid of feeling anger most of my life and sometimes when I lean into it and I feel like I'm in a safe place.
7:02Ryan Willms:I'm like, well, this actually feels good. But there was like a mental judgment that it's bad and it feels bad. But actually, if you kind of release attachment, there might be pleasure and like enjoyment in that feeling as well.
7:23Ryan Lynch:do you feel like there was anything recently for you that's made that more that point more salient
7:35Ryan Willms:well you know i i briefly mentioned this experience this weekend i feel like i'll bring it up because it's so fresh but we kicked off our marathon program and it was like our first little group run with a couple of us and we did 10 miles with three miles at marathon pace. And, um, you know, there's a number of factors that go into having a good run on that day or not having a good run on that day, but due to, you know, a variety of these factors, a mile, three quarters of a mile into this three mile interval, I was just like dying. Basically. I was like, I don't know if I can even make it one mile.
8:13Ryan Willms:And so I did. And then I was just like, I got to take a break, you know, and we all just like pulled over and everyone was pretty gassed because it was like 95 degrees in LA and unusually humid. And so it was just like, you know, challenging from that alone, not to mention like day one of the, the, the program. But, um, Um, you know, I think in the past that pain and the fear and the sort of like failure would have like been more devastating, but it was only seven minutes, you know? And so rather than try to like, just keep pushing for another two miles, we just took a shorter recovery between each mile and then went back into it.
9:00and the next two miles like I knew it was gonna be really uncomfortable like I was just gonna be
9:08Ryan Willms:like running into a wall basically but I was just like all right let's do it you know and just the pace was really slow and it felt like unbelievably hard but because I was choosing it and because I like I was almost doing it with a smile like I'm just gonna put my feet back in this fire and see what happens. And it was a really like actually enjoyable and interesting experience, but still challenging to grapple with like the body saying no, the number on the watch, you know, all these things, the relativity to the other guy I was running with. And so like coming out of it, you know, somebody recently just said this to me, it was like, you can give your 60%, a hundred percent.
9:56Ryan Willms:And it was like, yeah, I like fully went into that, you know, and in that process, like there was enjoyment, but there was, and there was, you know, physical suffering or pain. And I could choose how much I let that lead to mental suffering and pain. Yeah.
10:16Ryan Lynch:It feels like that's the kind of the fundamental difference and the thing you find that is so distinct and maybe people who have spent more times in these spaces and tend to perform at higher levels is it's not that they don't feel the discomfort or pain it's just how they respond to said sensation that is often very different um i feel like this is a really nice bridge into this week's topic of inner dialogues. I'd love for you to introduce why you wanted this to be the topic and what this thing looks like for you.
10:59Ryan Willms:Yeah, no, I appreciate it. And yeah, it's actually quite an interesting process for me because, you know, we started this podcast and the Substack and then we're doing a run retreat in a week and a half and I wanted to kind of like bring the ethos of them together and so it was kind of actually through designing the t-shirt for the run retreat that I started exploring this and like coming up with like the design for it and the idea for it and thinking about like dialogues how does this like kind of ethos or theme of dialogues like go into a running experience like this. And so kind of like through that exploration, it was like pulling apart these different layers and then, you know, having reference to things like the chain keys and things like subtle bodies and, and that.
11:52Ryan Willms:And so it was really interesting because like, it was really just supposed to be a t-shirt design, you know, and then we started talking and it was like, you kind of identified it as like this system or a map. And it was like, oh yeah and you know you were like oh yeah i see how this is like functional and we can you could use that and i'm like oh that's really interesting like it was just supposed to be a cool t-shirt and then what's emerged is like an actually helpful and useful map that really ties into kind of how i approach my own spiritual contemplation you know but then it really starts to differentiate these different layers.
12:33Ryan Willms:And so, you know, the idea is that all these dialogues are one, but by pulling them apart, we can start to like see them more clearly, understand them and kind of move through the layers. And then ideally we sort of put them back together in a way where there almost is no dialogue anymore. Like it's all sort of becomes one again. And so it starts with the mind, you know, how we're talking to ourselves. Then it moves into the kind of emotional aspect and like, how are we feeling? How are we relating to others? You know, others in the group, others around us, others on social media, others on that run specifically, and then into the physical body and the dialogue there between our body and the earth and our environment and that sort of like deeper more primal relationship and so you know i think it's important because everything exists in relationship and so like exploring these different levels of of relating essentially um can be really helpful and illuminating.
13:53Ryan Lynch:I'm really interested in these different levels and just to start out with your own, you know, mind level. Do you have a, how would you describe your baseline inner dialogue, but you're not racing, you're not training. What's your, what's going on on just the day to day?
14:18Ryan Willms:Yeah, good question.
14:22Ryan Willms:Well, it's, as you might expect, not a simple answer because, you know, the thing that comes to mind is like Michael Singer. He's a spiritual teacher, author of Untethered Soul and Surrender Experiment. And he has this quote that I love. It's like, your mind is where your soul goes to hide from your heart. and so if you kind of think of the soul as your awareness right so if you're afraid it goes to your mind so it's very like a mental egoic sort of experience and usually when we're in that you know it's like i it's all about me i'm afraid i need to survive you know but if we're not afraid like that awareness naturally generally will stay with the heart and from when our awareness is anchored in the heart there's more of a we all one like i am safe i can look oh this person needs a hug you know this is this is going on here and there's this much more like zoomed out kind of perspective and so you know so much of my path has been like how to anchor in that place more than the your place really and so you know from that place like the deeper and deeper we go into it like you get to these really paradoxical and profound you know experiences and it's where you get a lot of these sayings like i am that i am or i am the the truth the life and the way you know these types of things where Jesus or other, you know, masters are sharing, like, I am everything, you know, I'm nothing, I'm no one.
16:11Ryan Willms:And so a lot of the time it's like, that's where I'm resting. And then something happens and the awareness goes back to the mind and it goes back into the like egoic small self and is feeling afraid. And so just kind of like an oscillation between those two, I would say. And then can you catch it and come back, you know?
16:38Ryan Lynch:Is your inner dialogue when you're racing or training notably different than that, that baseline in your, in your day?
16:50Ryan Willms:Um, I think at this point now when I'm racing or running, like it generally is in the more like holistic heart-centered place because for me like especially if I'm alone like that's I feel very safe in that so like if I'm on the treadmill and I've got like my dark sunglasses on and I'm just like dropped in it's like a safe environment for me to be in that more expansive curious state you know it shifts sometimes if I'm leading a run because now I'm a little bit more, is everyone okay? Is everyone getting this? Is everyone, you know, okay with this pace? And so there can be a little bit more of that like vigilant, potentially like I want people to be okay so that I'm okay, you know?
17:39Ryan Willms:And, and so just, you know, being aware of that, how does that feel in the body versus trusting, I guess.
17:48Ryan Lynch:and how do you feel just in terms of relating or impacting that dialogue i've always found that to be in kind of a fascinating one i think a recurring theme even in the last conversation we had is how much does one listen to the dialogue versus something else yeah what is is anything coming up for you there?
18:14Ryan Willms:Well, I think if anything, like this is almost the biggest theme or invitation of the episode, right? Is like, can you, the listener go listen to this dialogue? Like how aware of it are you? Right. Cause it's going on, especially this layer of the mental layer, right? The mental body, the mind. And so, you know, I was doing an interview with somebody last year and they're like, well if I'm saying like okay you can do it like one more mile like I know you've got this I'm like well who's talking to who right and immediately everyone can like relate to that to some degree it's like oh yeah who is talking to who like that implies immediately that there's a dialogue going on right and so you know we can remember those times on our run where we're like I can't do it you know, but you're talking inside to yourself.
19:10Ryan Willms:And so how aware of that can you become? Right. And, and there's different versions of this. And it was fun to kind of explore this with you and our like research call, um, of like, am I, am I saying like, you can do this, you've got this, like, I believe in you. Or is it like, I can do this. I've got this. I believe in myself. Um, I can do anything. Or you even brought up the idea of like, Ryan, you've got this, right? Like it was like a more third person inner dialogue.
19:46Ryan Lynch:Yeah, it's fascinating how many elite athletes specifically tend to speak from that place. And it's, I feel like one of the prevailing things you hear in sports psych is for some reason, there seems to people tend to respond better to this the yeah the second person so saying like hey rye like rye you got this almost as if it was like a coach or something and there's something about that uh that direction that helps i think my sense of it at least for me is i think it keeps you from being uh trying to be both roles simultaneously coach and athlete and it allows you to essentially coach yourself and not also try to be like the athlete talking to yourself sometimes it just feels ridiculous if you're like i can do this you know it might feel a little bit juvenile or hard to believe at a time, but there's something about other people believing in you that strangely can sometimes make you believe wild things.
21:09Ryan Lynch:And so, yeah, I think that's the thought. I think if you've never tried it, it's worth trying. It certainly does feel different. um i can't ensure it will increase your mile time but uh it does uh it's just it's interesting it's it's definitely worth trying and then feeling into and seeing how that do you respond you know like sometimes i've said that to myself and it's like oh rye one more you got this and then you know the athlete comes out and cusses out the coach and says i'm not doing one more you know And so it's just interesting, you know, what comes up there.
21:47Ryan Willms:I totally agree. And it is very interesting. And I'm not somebody who reads science, but I have, like, heard that positive inner self talk is beneficial performance-wise. And so, you know, it's interesting to see what, like, version of that will resonate with us as individuals. like my, my, uh, perspective is that like, if I'm just in, you know, it's funny. Cause if I'm just like, I am this and I am that, and I'm running this and I can do it. And I'm, you know, it sounds the same as I am all that I am, you know, like the voice of God to Moses, but it's, and it is actually the same voice, you know, but it's filtered through the ego.
22:31Ryan Willms:And so I am doing it. I can do anything, you know, there is a very like, not, not in like a negative connotation, but like self obsessed. I'm the center, like juvenile, you know, like you said, like, it's very, it's like a young mental developmental sort of state to be in, you know, what, you know, and we've talked before and I've mentioned this, like, um, you know, it's like Olympic athletes, right that maybe you're like 20 years old you know like if they are in that kind of mindset but also like really believe they can do it it's very powerful right or like Michael Jordan he's another example or it's like he takes everything so personally right like this guy said one thing in a newspaper and now I'm gonna destroy his life you know it's like it's very egoic but it can be very potent and powerful.
23:29Ryan Willms:So it can work for performance, you know, but I guess what we're talking about is this like deeper self-realization. And so if we differentiate from that and it's like you can do it, right? Well, then it's like, well, who's talking to who, right? And generally it's like the sort of wisdom of the higher self or truer self. That's when it's like loving, compassionate, curious, um, patient, you know, forgiving, like those are the energies of the heart. Those are the energies of like the true self. And so when that voice is coming through and speaking to the, the human or the inner child or the, the young kind of version of us, um, that's, that's a really interesting and beautiful opportunity to connect with that, that we've always been, you know, and, and hold the sort of young self.
24:30Ryan Willms:That's like, I can't do it. I can't run this fast for this much longer. And it's like, no, you can do it. I believe in you. You can do anything, you know? And then can we like receive that as well? Like that's also, you know, an interesting challenge. Yeah.
24:45Ryan Lynch:I think that part of the power of the second person is it makes you makes you at least makes me more likely to speak kindly because I'm speaking to someone else or sometimes I can be significantly harder on myself which I think is a common thing not not the same for everybody but you know typically some of the things you maybe say to yourself when you're really down on yourself you would never say to someone that's suffering that you love yeah and so uh i think that's the other thing that helps it helps you get get into that space if maybe you're not feeling it internally at the time um which can be really great i'm also before we jump into the levels i'm also wondering how you feel about what's beyond or before the inner dialogue is there anything beyond or before the inner dialogue
25:44Ryan Willms:uh i mean yeah i would say there is right it's like peace and love and unity is like because it's like what's before birth and what's after death is kind of almost the same question as i'm like hearing it anyways you know so i think like there is you know nothingness and everything and life emerges from that and goes back into it and it's like the dialogue as well right and so the dialogue emerges from from nothing from consciousness you know and i think like it's it's can we play with it can we enjoy it and we have to be aware of it right and that's kind of this like idea of like let's just be like curiously aware of it like there's no judgment whether i'm saying i can do it or you can do it or ryan can do it it's just like what is that dialogue?
Read the full transcript
26:37Ryan Willms:How many voices are there? Right. Cause we can also be like, you're a piece of shit. Like you'll never do this. It's like, that's not the true self that's talking to ourselves there. Right. But that ego voice can be so loud at times. And it's like the ego will like berate the inner child for not being good enough. And that can keep us in that cycle. And, you know, catching that and being like, wow, I talk to myself in that way is a little bit confronting, but we have to catch it before we can start to change it. So it's a, it's quite a complex, insane, almost unfathomable and paradoxical system that we live in, you know, and having these different layers of dialogue and, and multiple perspectives within us.
27:29Ryan Willms:Right. And, you know, you have people who have like some sort of mental break or schizophrenia, these things are people on the streets. And it's like, there's a thin line between like that and enlightenment a lot of the time. And it's like, all these voices for them are just exposed, but we actually have a lot of them going on inside of us.
27:53Ryan Lynch:and we just like pretend we don't yeah totally I think the the thing I'm I'm also trying to question myself and I think something I've certainly maybe glimpsed in specifically actually in endurance sports in an interesting way is like that's one of the few spaces I've ever been in where I have the loudest internal dialogue and sometimes the quietest like there's certain times where it's the only time the dialogue goes away it's like I'm just running you know and and that for me sometimes becomes the the thing I'm chasing you know it's like how do I outrun the dialogue or something you know and then how do i keep that post post run or post the thing and i've certainly glimpsed it in other ways too but um for someone who has so much in inner dialogue myself that that alone is sometimes the biggest reason i'm wanting to go on some maybe patently absurd exercise program.
29:11Yeah.
29:12Ryan Willms:And I don't think you're alone in that for sure. Um, yeah, I mean, we all crave to quiet that dialogue, right. And find peace and that oneness. So, you know, people do that through meditation. They do it through exercise. They do it through work or at least are attempting or chasing it. Like you said, you know, and it's that sort of flow state where like our conditioning, meets safety, meets creativity. And there's not really a lot of thinking in flow state, right? It's like the intelligence is flowing through us, right? Like the classic artists, like I didn't do that. It just came through me, right?
29:50Ryan Willms:And so we're kind of like searching for the conditions to allow that, which is tricky, you know, because conditions are always changing and we're always changing. and so like can we actually just cultivate that experience all the time you know like unconditionally and it takes some exploration and curiosity to to get there you know like I think often I can be in a flow state washing dishes right there's like rhythm it's a simple thing. I know how to do it. I am safe. And so it's just like, I can just like drop in and it's just nothing and everything at once. And it's like, that is our true nature.
30:38Ryan Willms:So that's why we crave it deeply.
30:44Ryan Lynch:Jumping into level one more directly, right? This idea of the mind, the self, the I, sometimes the ego um i'd love to start with each of these speaking to some interrogation techniques to explore i know when we were talking on about this earlier you had some interesting examples of how you've experienced this specifically in a mindful endurance context and maybe one or maybe just one thing that people could could try out on their next next run or ride
31:22Ryan Willms:yeah well like i said i think the first one is really just what's going on what is the like who's talking to who what is the dialogue and i think once you kind of just bring some awareness to what's going on there then you've got something to play with and to be curious about and to explore and potentially like try something else. Like if it's all I, I, I, can you try speaking as in you, you know, and see what happens there. And so I think it really does affect the felt experience, you know, because if I am like sort of immersed in this egoic, like I am the body, I am this and I am suffering and I am that, right?
32:13Ryan Willms:The pain will feel overwhelming and we'll want to eject out of that experience a lot of the time. But if it's like, oh, you are feeling the sensations of running and I am the one who's experiencing the running, right? There's already separation and differentiation there and there's space, right? There's space from being overwhelmed by the suffering. and it's a funny example but it was like the most explicit and intense version of this is like I was on a mushroom journey and I got a foot cramp and it was you know when you're on mushrooms like your physical sensations are really amplified and so like it was excruciating and as soon as I could catch it and be like, I am no one experiencing a human foot cramp.
33:10Ryan Willms:It was just like, like 90 % of the sensation was just like dissipated and it was still going on, but it was so easy to be with it. And so for me, like that really stood with me because I feel like that is possible in sport, You know, it's like, but usually it's like the discomfort ratchets up, we get like more sucked into it. Cause it's like the more fear we are feeling like, Oh, it's going to get me. We're like in the more fear, small self egoic state. So it's like, can we learn that? Like, as the intensity ratchets up, I am no one experiencing everything. and then it's like not that big of a deal kind of yeah another another one you hear often in
34:08Ryan Lynch:that i think relates to this in the i can sport psych space is it's classic like controlling your controllables right so much of discomfort especially when you're in the midst of a hard run is oh man like i shouldn't have worn this shirt today like i'm chafing or oh it's it's just too hot or you can just go through all of these this litany of grievances around what's wrong with the external you know yeah and the most common thing you hear from again people who are really practiced in these spaces is they control their controllables and and there's really only three things you can control right so this is another good eric potter at one but you know you can only control your attitude your effort and your behavior that's it everything else is just you know it's just happening yeah that's it those are the only things you can control so you know with a foot cramp you get to say is this happen is this foot cramp happening to me because i think that the universe wants me to have a foot cramp or in right data data it's just because i i didn't i'm not disciplined enough and didn't have my electrolytes this morning and and therefore you could go through all those different different you know psychological wormholes you can have an attitude of you know this is a this is a foot cramps happen and uh it's part of it's it's part of being it's part of being no one you know yeah well it's like part of like humanity right like it's part of
35:48Ryan Willms:humanity like everything we experience through the body is a part of humanity and like it's gnarly you know but it's we signed up for that coming to earth to experience it and mentally we just only want like 20 of humanity that's like i just want that 20 like i don't want that other 80%, but you know, and that's what acceptance is, right. Or that's what surrender is. And yeah, I love that short list.
36:20Ryan Lynch:And I, yeah, I agree with those and it's, but it's also,
36:25Ryan Willms:it's very challenging to be like, well, I'm basically not in control of anything, which means I'm helpless. Right. And the feeling of helplessness is quite unsettling because we really want to feel like we have some control. And all of those words, effort, attitude, behavior, they're really like responses in a way. Or like orientations. It's like an orientation response. There's no forceful outcome that you're getting from those.
37:06Ryan Lynch:I feel like the people who tend to have a good relationship with these, they're more focused on stances versus states. Right. So their attitude towards difficulty is and control is I can't control much. That doesn't mean that I need to fear.
37:26Ryan Willms:That doesn't mean that I mean it means, you know, again, easier said than done.
37:31Ryan Lynch:but over time i think some of the things that you you've experienced and are practicing have probably given you a disposition where you could have a foot cramp and zoom out to like the universal perspective you know that wasn't that was a response that was a state that was inspired by a stance right that was pretty deeply held held in you and so i think over time what i like about the attitude effort behavior is there there are things that you can do before you get out there you can say hey it it may be hard it may not be hard here's the attitude i'm going to try and show up with i'm going to give a 60 of my 100 of effort that's like what i need to do and you know when things happen because they will and they're probably not going to go to plan how do i respond with those two things what's my behavior associated with it and like can i be proud of
38:29Ryan Willms:those three things irrespective of what happens yeah that's i think again an interesting metric
38:35Ryan Lynch:we'll probably talk a little bit more about in the next episode but there's something there that yeah i think helps helps people focus on on what's worth focusing on yeah i totally agree
38:47Ryan Willms:And I think like all those things bring you into the experience, like the, none of them are outcome related, right? Cause outcomes is all like mental attachment and that can lead to identification and suffering very quickly, very quickly, you know? And so I think like ultimately it's like, I view the heart as like the compass of truth. And it's like the only way we can really feel fulfilled and is like, did I give my best? Did I do the best I could? And it's like, that can only be answered through the heart because it's like the unifying field. it's outside of you know relative comparison numbers all that stuff right and it's like yes i did i was going for sub three i ran 315 but i gave the best effort that i could on the day and then we can be proud of that and because we know we're in integrity with love and ourselves a lot of us don't do that because we don't want to get the other answer of like, no, I didn't, you know?
39:59Ryan Willms:And does that evoke shame or guilt or, or something, but that's just as valuable to, you know, to have those lessons along the way. And like, yeah, I got scared and pulled the pin. Like, okay, now next time when that fear arises, right? And a good sign of fear rising is that like mental loop, right? And like, oh, it's too hot. oh this shirt's chafing oh it's like i'm blaming the external world i'm now putting myself as a victim of all the things going on right versus the opposite what how you laid out those three words and like if we are anchored in those we're not the victim of our personal reality we are experiencing it as a life catalyst you know just what's happening and then we're engaging with it and, and making choices to some degree, but we're not a victim.
40:56Ryan Willms:Right. And, and, but so for thinking that we're feeling uncomfortable, right. Cause we're going like mind, emotional, physical, but really it starts physical, emotional mind. So by the time our mind is like, I can't do this. It's too hot. Like the shoes are too tight. Uh, the shoes is the wrong shoe. I didn't bring this thing. It's because we already feel unsafe. And now emotionally we're like, I'm not good enough. And then our mind is trying to make sense of it. Yeah.
41:25Ryan Lynch:It wants to like rectify the, it's the last bastion of malleability of how can I, how can I make this make sense? Right. You know, how can I, this was all exactly how, of course this happened this way, you know? And it tends to just affirm whatever will make us feel safe or righteous or
41:47Ryan Willms:you to your point whatever the yeah preserve our self-identity basically right exactly or affirm that our concept of self is bad yeah like i didn't bring the fuel i wore the wrong shirt like of course i did because i'm bad like i'm always effing up yeah it's interesting again it goes
42:10Ryan Lynch:back to these stories that it shows us and i think there's something really beautiful about these practices where you get to see the story in vivid detail from different angles and then hopefully you now have some more tools and space to say how do I feel about that story of myself that keeps coming up or how do I you know can I both accept that that person in the way that I
42:41Ryan Willms:would accept someone that I love that is being a human and remind them that they're more than this
42:49Ryan Lynch:and or are capable of more than this and like how we could get there um because yeah I think it's it's so easy to get stuck in those in those loops um especially with you know jumping to level two here and you already touched on this the emotional side but especially in relationship to other you You know, this is a sport. So it's definitionally related to other. And I'm interested to hear how you've explored this idea of the other in the second level of this system. Yeah.
43:25Ryan Willms:Yeah, so level two being like correlated to the emotional body and, yeah, our relation to other. So, yeah, I mean, it's hard to not feel that in most aspects of life, I think. But sport really brings it pretty front and center, I think. Whether we're in a running race or we're on a team or whatever, it's like we can say we're running our own race, you know? But it's hard to ignore there's 20 ,000 other people out here running the same race and we're all trying to do it to a time, right? And that time has decades and decades of history to it and who ran what at what time and what I think is a good time based on like my dad or my brother or my best friend or this guy on Instagram that doesn't know I exist or, you know, all these different things.
44:17Ryan Willms:and so like if we can get enough of a handle on the mind and start to like observe it then we can drop down into like well how am i feeling like what feeling is coming up that's potentially sending me into this mental loop or making me feel unsafe so that i have to like talk to myself and tell myself or tell you know however we're doing that that i'm okay because if i'm i find i need to tell myself I'm okay and I got this, I feel like I don't. Right. So it's like, okay, well, what's that feeling? Fear, doubt, um, you know, and is that now starting to illuminate maybe a belief I have about myself or my body, um, my capability.
45:04Ryan Willms:Right. So I think other ultimately is, I mean, we talk about it as like a mirror, but I like, I love the word catalyst, right? Because it's like, it'd be interesting for you to do one of your etymology breakdowns. But to me, Catalyst is like, it feels like it brings something alive. So it's bringing something alive within me. And so going on a run, you know, having somebody I think I'm faster than beat me on intervals, that's going to make something alive within me. I'm going to feel something. I might feel like joy for him you know like wow he crushed it today awesome and I know I did the best I could maybe I'll get him next time you know or I might feel deep embarrassment and shame and like how did he beat me what the hell I fueled wrong I got the better shoes and I and he still beat me?
46:04Ryan Willms:Like maybe these shoes aren't good. Um, you know, whatever. Oh, it was because my aura ring, I had a bad sleep last night. Like that's the only reason he beat me. Right. And so it's like, we can again, get sucked back into like the mind trying to make sense of it. But like, okay, if I'm thinking anything along those lines, what am I feeling? What is this like brought alive within me, right? Because shame is relative. It's always in comparison. I could be this, I should be this. If we're thinking those things, it's often like a relative comparison in relationship to other. And so can we just come back and just feel the feeling, right?
46:49That's the actual only ask of the soul, really, or the heart,
46:55Ryan Willms:is just be present with the feeling. You don't have to make sense of it. And we want to make sense of things to feel safe, but love doesn't make sense, and fear doesn't make sense. And so the deeper we can just, from the mind's perspective, the universe is too complex and paradoxical. so if we can start to accept that to some degree it makes it a lot easier to feel whatever feelings they are and they don't have to make sense that'd be a good example of a powerful attitude
47:34Ryan Lynch:yeah no totally and i think that's an important note here as as you interrogate these things is the purpose of the interrogation isn't for them to all make sense they're just things to feel and move through and i think it's probably gonna it deserves its own episode but the the paradox the paradox of this way of being in the world and this mode of exploration can be both destabilizing and restabilizing as you continue to find intimacy with it but um Yeah, I think the thing that comes up for me when I'm thinking about the self and other and something I know we talked about was how do you feel when you're passing someone or when you're being passed?
48:27Ryan Lynch:It can bring up such a distinct feeling. And, you know, are you experiencing envy or animosity or pride or humility or empathetic joy? You know, what's coming up? It's particularly interesting, of course, when you have both real proximity to the people that are passing you, maybe teammates or friends. But it's also really interesting when you're dealing with people you don't know, you know, And the stories that you start to create of like, oh, I knew I was faster than that person that I see running around, you know, the reservoir every week or whatever it is. And yeah, I think that's another really useful, really accessible one.
49:14Ryan Willms:Yeah.
49:15Ryan Lynch:You can go into it. Like what story are you telling yourself and what story are you telling about other people? And how does that make you feel? And how do you wish to feel maybe?
49:26Ryan Willms:yeah next time and like and what what belief is that story affirming or potentially counter to if it's creating tension because it's not aligning with what you might be believing um but yeah the first time i did the half iron man program like i really had this like heart rate focus and in zone two focus and like the the sort of like really interesting spiritual parallel to it for me was like trust the heart right and it was like you want to trust your heart like holistically as we travel through this this experience as a human in the universe but like you can really practically put that to use by trusting your heart rate you know okay hey, top of my zone two is 140 beats per minute.
50:18So like, I know this is an easy run.
50:22Ryan Willms:I have, like, I'm committing to trusting like that's how fast I should be running. Maybe it's eight minutes, maybe it's nine minutes, maybe it's 10 minutes, maybe it's 12 minutes for somebody, you know? And so, yeah, you're running along and somebody passes you and somebody passes you. And it's like, I know I can run faster. That guy shouldn't be passing me. like, come on, you know, but like, can I trust my heart? Can I trust? This is my process. This is where my body's at. This is the run I'm on today is this easy run, you know, and it can be really challenging, you know, but it's like trusting something outside of the mind.
51:05Ryan Willms:Like that is really powerful, right? Like in the gene keys, there's a great quote. That's like trust beyond all understanding, you know, and I love that. And it's like, I think that it almost has to apply to something as simple as using your heart rate for your training, but then it really goes beyond that. And so can I trust the feeling I'm feeling just needs to be felt right. I don't have to make sense of it. It doesn't mean, it doesn't mean anything about me. You know, I think like that's where we get in trouble and why we don't want to feel the feelings is because we are, the feelings affirm what we believe about ourselves, who we think we are, the value that we have.
51:54Ryan Willms:So if I feel bad, I am bad. So we want to feel good all the time. And it can like affirm that we are good, you know, but if the feeling means nothing about me, it has nothing to do with who I am. It's just a, you know, breeze moving through my body and it might be cold or warm or fast or slow. It's just the part of the experience I'm having. Um, it's so much easier, the more we can kind of have that perspective on, on feelings. I think it's also really, it's really useful to have this sort of dialogue with, with teammates.
52:42Ryan Lynch:I think that's the power of having like, you know, when people speak to the culture of a team, this is a lot of what they're talking about is they help us. Hey, help everyone stay accountable. Cause sometimes it is hard to stay in that place. Even if you've said, Hey, no, this is the culture we're trying to build and the stance that we want to be in. And, you know, there's so many different ways that that shows up. I mean, even I'm just remembering a conversation about essentially how you'll hear this in the military as well, where, you know, very extreme, again, high stakes places are interesting places to explore this stuff.
53:20Ryan Lynch:And one of the things you'll hear a lot there is this phrase, Charlie Mike. They have these little phrases they'll say, and it essentially means continue mission. And it's a very direct, but also somewhat quick reminder when someone starts to complain about something. that's outside of those buckets. And it's just like, we can address, you could have maybe worn better gear next mission. You can't do that now. So Charlie Mike, I hear you. Is it me saying, I hear you? And I also remember that you wanted me to keep us all accountable, that this is the most important thing that we're doing. We made the decisions that we made.
54:18Ryan Lynch:Let's continue the workout.
54:19Ryan Willms:Yeah.
54:20Ryan Lynch:And let's deal with this afterwards. Good to know, though, that you hate that shirt. You know what I mean? Like definitely change it next time. But this is not the time to have that dialogue.
54:33Ryan Willms:Yeah.
54:35Ryan Lynch:And so, again, it's interesting. Again, not only like how you're having it, but when you're having it. And knowing sometimes that just like in any relationship or any dialogue, sometimes now is not the time to have that conversation yeah very important conversation but it may not be as fruitful if it's had now sometimes this is the exact time to have the conversation because you're open enough and you got 10 more miles of open road and like you're gonna it's the only way you'd be forced to face it you know yeah but I think that's another interesting one of when that dialogue comes in interrogating what you're feeling noting it and then saying is this is now the time for this yeah uh or is this a good thing to bookmark for
55:21Ryan Willms:for a different state yeah no i think that's really that is helpful yeah and like discerning that like when to put it down and when to pick it up is is really helpful um and i think it's just a skill that most people myself included in i mean just keep need to keep practicing you know like because we'll put something down and we won't pick it back up again a lot of the time right or we'll pick it up and we won't know how to put it down we're just like trapped in the the loop of it um and i love that charlie mike thing and it does also make me be like well then what is the mission you know because i think in a military sense it's probably more defined but if i'm a part of a run group to some degree there's like the 10 miles we're running as part of the mission but like also the mission is self-realization and like learning right and it was funny in that run this last weekend you know in the last interval I was really like kind of like humbled and like putting myself to like the altar almost like whatever is needed for me to like release this, you know, please like, I'm ready for it.
56:43Ryan Willms:I'm open to it, you know? And then the following two days, all these things kept coming up that were like evoking shame. But, uh, you know, the mechanism for avoiding shame is very strong and complex. So it took me 24 hours to be like, oh, it's shame that I'm resisting. This is what I asked for. I asked spirit for this, right? and so like i forgot the mission for a little bit and it's like oh right there this bigger part of the mission is right here that i asked for literally and you know it comes up in ways that we can't expect and so again like value in that like more zoomed out perspective to see oh yeah i asked for abundance and here it is it's not what i thought and it didn't come when or how, you know, or I am asking for healing and it's like shame comes up because the shame needs to be felt to be healed, you know?
57:43Ryan Willms:And, but like, I don't want to feel shame. So then I resisted unconsciously. And so there's quite a paradox there. And it kind of reminds me of this clip from like Bruce Almighty or something. And like Morgan Freeman is like, I think he's supposed to be playing God. And he's like, you know, if you ask God for forgiveness, do you think he's just going to give you forgiveness or he's going to give you like a life opportunity to be forgiven or to forgive someone else? Right. And it's like, that's so helpful to remember is like, it's not like, please give me abundance. And then you just get a bunch of money.
58:20Ryan Willms:You know, It's like you get an opportunity to change your belief or heal something or receive it when it's hard to receive it or see the abundance you already have that maybe you're not seeing. And so remembering that is, I find, helpful. It's like, oh, yeah, I asked for this.
58:41Ryan Lynch:Yeah, like asking for abundance and receiving gratitude. You know? Yeah, that's a really, really good point. and it's something that I think you can apply to so many things. So many things. Jumping into, I feel like the last maybe two things we could explore quickly. The first one being the final level, right? So the physical, the connection to earth. Remember you mentioned one of the ways that you've explored this on a run that I've been trying out is the sound and hearing the rhythm of your feet hitting the ground. And depending on if that's gravel or road or some other material and just really tuning into your connection with the ground.
59:40Ryan Lynch:And also as a reminder that you are the ground. um and i'm curious if there's any other techniques experiences you've had that have really brought you into this this third level in a useful way yeah yeah so the third level is
59:56Ryan Willms:is about like the physical body like cellular nervous system and yeah the connection to with the earth um i think you know language is so interesting because i was about to say connection to the earth right and again that can imply that like the earth is over here and i'm over here and i'm connected to it through my feet i guess you know versus my connection with the earth that we are actually one and the same organism you know it's like alan watt's talking about like the apple tree apples you know and like the earth peoples and it's like we are part of the same organism from like that physical material sense and so yeah how can we drop into that real deep connection and I think like some people can do it conditionally not very naturally and for some of us it's like we need to kind of like unwind the mind settle the felt emotional experience then we can really be in that physical like almost like primal connection and it's like yeah the sound of the feet on the road or the gravel the sounds of the birds the smell of the wind the you know temperature the all those things like a real physical experience um Um, and I think like, if we can drop into that, like it's really can be quite a portal to that flow state, to that, like oneness experience.
1:01:35Ryan Willms:Um, you know, it's, I think can be meditative, like all these things. It's like, it feels good because there's like an alignment there, like a natural alignment of our true nature with, you know, we call it mother earth, right? With our mother, with the true mother of creation and intelligence. Our culture is so conditioned out of the pace of nature. Nature never rushes, yet everything is accomplished. If we can drop into that and align with it, and this can be just sitting in a park, but also running, riding a bike potentially. But it's more like our inner rhythms are in alignment with nature, with our nature, with the rhythms of the earth.
1:02:30Ryan Willms:And there's just something deeply restorative and natural and nourishing with that.
1:02:45to end it i'd love to focus on the integration of this system because of course you know you've i think very very beautifully showcased how each of these are distinct levels right
1:03:04Ryan Lynch:that are woven together and isolating allows for a unique type of examination and awareness of impact on other levels but of course they are not separate right there they're actually all cacted in one in whole so i'm curious what integration uh looks like across the system and how you've integrated these things personally.
1:03:32Ryan Willms:Yeah. Well, it's interesting because I think the differentiation process requires a little bit more efforting, you know, because we're sort of changing or pulling apart the sort of unconditional experience that we're, or not unconditional, the conditioned experience. um so it's like okay what's going on here but like the more these are pulled apart and the mind is able to kind of settle the emotional body is able to settle the physical body is able to anchor into its more natural pace and rhythm like the the integration kind of happens naturally you know and i think something that i found really interesting is like part of this process right is like the beliefs that are in the body right that started in childhood that's what echoes through the emotional body and then the mental body and creates distrust creates suffering um creates these things so it's like ultimately once we can identify what these beliefs are and illuminate them bring awareness to them bring light to them it's like and we know the truth of our being those beliefs can't really like live anymore because they can really only live in the dark they can only live in the unconscious place of not being aware right but we don't need to actually replace them with a new belief they're just dissolved in the truth so like when we get to this level of i am all that i am i am the life the truth and the way it's not a belief it's just the truth so there's no like replacing the belief and so the more we anchor into that sort of thing there is just this natural integration so I find like we kind of pull apart the things pull apart the like Russian doll you know and then it's like truth just puts it back together right like truth, love, the universe spirit like it just apples we just get out of the way so we're like pulling it apart cleaning it out and then it just comes back to its true nature yeah i i think i think a lot about the
1:06:04Ryan Lynch:the gordian knot right so the very famous very complex series of of knots that everyone's trying to untangle because, you know, the prophecy is that whoever untangles it will become the king. And so everyone comes from all over to try to like pull apart every single piece of this, just as we do with our internal dialogue and our relationship with others. And then finally, somebody comes through and just cuts it with a sword. And that's, I feel like what truth truth often actually does. And while I feel like it can feel really terrifying to be like, well, what if I find out about this truth? And then this truth means I have to like reconfigure everything.
1:06:57It's not often actually like that.
1:07:01Ryan Lynch:It's actually much more like a Gordian knot where it just, it just kind of cuts through a lot of this stuff. So it's not that you even have to put this stuff in new places it's just no longer you know the baggage is no longer there um and uh yeah that's hopefully makes makes the uh interrogation process a little less a little less terrifying let's say there's no you know there's certainly integration to do you will have to reorient a few things i can at least speaking from personal experience but But it's amazing how much of those big questions might not feel so big when you arrive at a real capital T truth.
1:07:43Yeah.
1:07:44Ryan Willms:Yeah, it is interesting because like the fear, right, and the mind will project that into anything. So it's like for me, my experience is like the deep shame of like the sort of core wound, sacred wound type of thing. you know shame is like you're not good enough and maybe you'll never be good enough but you have to keep trying right so it's like you have to try everything and really hard to get to enlightenment you got to keep trying you can't just do nothing and sit still because you're not good enough and then you'll feel the shame if you stop trying but then the ego is like well if i become enlightened, I'll have to give up who I am and everything that I, everything my identity is attached to.
1:08:33And that's too terrifying.
1:08:35Ryan Willms:I'll just die. I'll just vanish. And so you've got like the ego being like, no, and the shame is like, go. And then the ego is like, well, what if I like become enlightened and then like my marriage falls apart? Or what if I become enlightened and I haven't healed this thing and I would turn out I like use this power as like for bad you know it's all just like fear that's like resisting and pushing and pulling right and it's like keeping us out of that peace that we're craving and that that true nature because like if you become enlightened if you truly are enlightened and you're embodying it like you're not going to be a dick like it It doesn't make sense.
1:09:18Ryan Willms:It wouldn't work in that way. And so, you know, the ego just makes up the wildest stuff because it's afraid, you know? And it's like, well, I'm afraid of doing couples counseling because what if I find out this marriage isn't right and I need to move on? You know, that is scary. but like if I arrived at that truth it wouldn't be that scary because I would know it so deeply to be the correct path forward and it doesn't mean it wouldn't be challenging but there would be such an embodied sense of like this is right and I know it's the right thing that I'm I'm going to be okay and so it's this real paradox of like you got to do something and the more you do that knot gets tightened right into the point where it's like i can't tighten this anymore i've tried everything i'm totally helpless okay let go of the knot and then it starts to like loosen you know and then like i the ego i the human can't untie the knot spirit i would say is the sword or is this like the unraveling right like love is what heals and the mind made the knot the mind can't undo the knot.
1:10:37Ryan Willms:Like my son has gotten really into playing with string and he like ties up his cars. So he's got like three cars tied together with string. And like, he's just like, not to do, to do, to do, to do, you know? And it's like, how, like he has no idea what he did. It's impossible to untie these things, you know? And it's like, that's, what's gone on inside of us. And so like, we have to try to untie it to realize I can't untie it. So now I have to surrender and like ask for forgiveness and let love and spirit untie it.
1:11:10Ryan Lynch:And be willing to see where that takes you, right? I think we might've touched that in the last episode, but I keep thinking of the difference between like the words like FOMO and FOFO is the one I was hearing recently, right? This idea of fear of missing out or is it fear of finding out? Are you afraid of finding out what's on the other side of that truth? are you are you afraid of this other thing that you think that you're trying to evade like maybe it's actually the idea that if that was true then what you know and that's i feel like the next evolution of of exploration that brings on its own whole host of yeah of insecurities um and and fear and you know alignment and embodiment and yeah you know all the things so well i love for that I love the question of like if being is enough then what happens because it's like well
1:12:10Ryan Willms:if I already am everything I've ever been and I'm ever going to be there's nothing to change there's nothing to do just rest in being then what happens you know and I think like that does feel scary right but I think most of us can agree that that the universe and the intelligence of love and creation is good and it's always unhappy it's always happening and it's always unfolding in every single moment through us and all around us and so then good things are always happening and can we trust that you know beyond all understanding truth truth is always happening yeah it is yeah you know and if we feel tension and if we feel bad, it's because we're not in alignment with truth, right?
1:13:08Ryan Willms:We only feel bad because we are good. Our true nature is good, is goodness. And so when we feel bad, something is just not in alignment. And so, you know, is it our thinking? Is it our feelings? Is it tied to a belief that's not in alignment with truth and love? Let's just like unravel it and let it dissolve in the light.
1:13:31Ryan Lynch:It feels like a beautiful spot to end it. Thanks so much for the conversation as always.
1:13:36Ryan Willms:Yeah. Thank you. Really appreciate it. Thank you.
From the publisher
In episode two, Ryan Lynch and Ryan Willms pick up some threads from the first episode, reflecting on pain and pleasure in endurance pursuits, before diving into a work-in-progress map for exploring the inner world through movement. Following the mind into the emotional body, into the physical body, and the different ways these inner dialogues can emerge, what is the point of exploring this map and the benefits of space and differentiation in sport and the human experience. You cannot separate what is One, but as the Buddha noted below, it is important to remember that the map is not the terrain.
* Mental Body: Who is speaking to whom? I am vs You are.
* Emotional Body: What am I feeling? How am I relating to “others”, as the experiencer?
* Physical Body: Our primal physicality, our cells, our nervous system. Our feet on the ground, the smell in the air, the sound of the birds. How are we relating to Mother Earth, as part of the environment, not separate from it.
“The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon.”
—The Buddha (From the Lankavatara Sutra)
PROTOCOL: Running as a Spiritual Practice
By Ryan Willms
Running as a Spiritual Practice is something I’ve been exploring the last couple of years with more intention. While running can be meditative, I don’t believe that it is meditation. But through moving contemplation, we can turn our running experience into something deep and meaningful. In this video, I share the 4-step protocol that I’ve been experimenting. The process requires curiosity and openness; we see what works for and refine, and be curious about how our running practice can take you deeper into your Self, body, and Universe.
* Microdose (20-40 minutes before run, be conservative to begin)
* Activating Breathwork (5-10 minutes of active breathing)
* Run (drop in, curious, feeling, exploring, a question to ask)
* Shavasana (lay down, let go, recover, listen, experience whatever is present)
ESSAY: Pursue nothing, Surrender to all
At the beginning of this year, after a few weeks of feeling a strange pain in my right leg that I couldn’t pinpoint where it came from, an MRI confirmed that I had a grade 4 stress fracture in my femur, probably one of the most uncommon bones to injure, given that it is the strongest and longest bone in the body.
The injury forced me to give up my spot in the London Marathon, which would have been my fourth marathon and my attempt at going sub-3 after a very bittersweet result of 3 hours and 1 minute at the Boston Marathon last year. And despite how frustrating and hard it was, months before, during my peak training phase, something inside me knew that one day I would have to face the reality that progress in sport is not a statistical line that goes endlessly up and up the more you train, but a mysterious and unpredictable journey where a pitfall can happen out of nowhere at any time.
Having centred my identity around running over the last two years, finding myself all of a sudden incapable of practising the sport triggered some uncomfortable questions about who I was. I found myself lacking a purpose, not having a race to train for or a tough weekly run to write a Track&Record newsletter about. I found myself lonely, not being able to spend time with the community and friends I had built around the sport. I found myself guilty, knowing how much I had shaped my diet around my training, and how toxically correlated my food consumption was with the amount of exercise I would do. I found myself full of questions and doubts, trying to fill the gap that running used to fill in my life. I found myself facing the uncomfortable position of accepting things as they are, existing without seeking or chasing, presence after all.
Luckily, my interest in exercise has always been wider than just moving one foot after another, and the injury gave me the chance to focus on some things that I had always wanted to do more: swimming and cycling.
Through swimming, I found the mental clarity I used to get from solo runs, but also the excitement and novelty you experience with a new sport, when every day you get a small sense of progress and you don’t judge yourself so harshly because you have little knowledge of what is “good” or “bad”, “fast” or “slow”.
Through cycling, I found space to gather with friends again, to spend my weekends having silly conversations and getting lost on the roads instead of getting trapped journaling through my own thoughts.
Somehow, unintentionally, I was preparing myself for the triathlon I had signed up for at the beginning of the year, a goal I have had since I was a kid and one that I had been finding excuses not to pursue over the last few years.
When the physio gave me the green light to start running in May, as well as confirming that I could do the triathlon, instead of suddenly obsessing over the race and the training as I would have done in the past, I simply continued my training without doing anything crazy, aiming to get to the start line with one single purpose: having fun.
Commonly, “having fun” is the typical form of self-sabotage amateur athletes resort to, a coping mechanism to avoid facing the possibility of a race going wrong or not getting the result they had in mind, but also a mechanism that stops us from truly having faith in what we could be capable of if we surrendered to the goal we initially had.
But yes, this time the goal was no other than that (... and crossing the finish line, I guess). Nevertheless, there were still nerves and tension before the race, the kind of nerves you get when you do something for the first time.
The growth I experienced during the months I couldn’t run made me comfortable with the idea of not having anything to aim for; it translated fear into excitement, insecurity into ease. There was no longer a pursuit of something, or something to prove; all that was left was a state of play, joy and a true and honest love for the practice of sport.
DESIGN: Three Layers of DIALOGUES are One
This shirt was designed for the upcoming Run Retreat and taking the themes of DIALOGUES into consideration. We dive deeper into the layers in this issue’s podcast episode above, but the idea is that, through movement, we can bring our awareness to the three layers of dialogue. It follows the path of the subtle bodies- Mental, Emotional, Physical and how each connects with our Self and our environment. If you look into the Gene Keys, it also mirrors the inner path of IQ, EQ, and SQ, as a spiral journey leading to our Heart. I’m excited to share the shirt with our community this weekend, and it was interesting for me how the design of this shirt has actually led to a useful and functional inner map discussed in the episode this month.
The shirt is designed with Pat Palacio, and limited quantities are available through seeding at our upcoming runs.
PLAYLIST: Natural High
Find your runner’s high with this playlist by Guillaume Berg featuring a selection of ‘tunnel’ music. Starting off at 118bpm and working up to a smooth 123bpm, Natural High will help you find a state of mushin for your next run.
COMMUNITY: Monthly DIALOGUES
We have started our monthly DIALOGUES in Los Angeles. Each month we are running and riding together. We’ll explore different themes in performance, recovery, mind and body. Some workouts will be on the road, the trail, some will integrate intensity, some ease. This weekend we’re sharing the experience of 10km on a flat trail and the polarity of hard and easy. Next month we’re partnering with 2XU for a Long Beach Half/marathon fine tuning session, where we’ll speak about racing mindset and fueling as well.
Follow Mindful Endurance Program on Strava for updates.
INDEX Things I learned this week
* Nutrition: I’d been taking Collagen peptides or powder after my workouts, mixing them into my smoothies. And this can be a general protein boost, but I found out that it misses a lot of the unique benefits of collagen. By taking it 30-45 minutes before the workout and mechanical loading, the collagen can really be utilized for strengthening the tendons, ligaments and structural pieces of the body.
* Injury Prevention: There has been a general ‘rule’ in running, not to increase your weekly volume by more than 10%, or else you will be at much greater risk of injury. And now there are newer studies that say its less about your weekly volume, but more about a single run being too long or hard. It says that your longest run now, should not be more than 10% longer than your longest run in the last 30 days. This makes sense to me experientially as well, and is super helpful insight as I dig into week 1 of my marathon training for CIM.
* Listen: Wu Wei – A practice, simple and helpful explanation of how to apply the practice of Wu Wei in our lives, meditation. Un-conditioning the urgency to ‘do’ is not as easy as it sounds, but it yields peace, surrender and alignment with the Way. But the more we can drop into this space of Being, everything happens without our ‘doing’.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit mindfulenduranceprogram.substack.com
