Issue 3: Relativity in Running

0:00All right, excited to be back again with you, Ryan. Ryan Lynch on the other side, myself, Ryan Wilms here, diving into our third episode of this new Dialogues podcast podcast. And today we're going to be exploring both, I guess, the concept and the experience of relativity and using sort of running and sport, of course, as the medium to explore that. Yeah, so jumping into relativity, as always, I'll come in with some etymology here. or etymology. So relative is really a Latin word, and it has a Latin root. Re means back, and ferre means to bear or carry. So back to bearing or carry, which does feel quite apt.

0:54In the 15th century is when it really became used to refer back to others as a means of comparison. Um, so, and this is, I think more of what we're going to be talking about today. I'm curious as always, why did you want this episode focused on relativity and how do you want to explore this topic today? Yeah, well, there's a lot of layers to it. I think, you know, I think it's been present in my own experience, um, for one. So that's usually what inspires me You don't want to talk about anything. But I had this idea a year or two ago of creating like a mindfulness for Strava course, you know, cause I just knew so many people that were like deleting their Strava or hiding their workouts.

1:40They're not going to record this workout and post it on Strava. And I was just like, Whoa, people are like really getting thrown for a loop on here. Right. And I think it's obviously the case with Instagram and other platforms too, but it was really kind of striking how affected people's you know sense of self identity how they were working out what workouts they were doing all these sorts of things so that's kind of where this started to really capture my awareness from like a cultural sense and then internally having a handful of experiences where it was just like really front and center like how impactful it could be.

2:23And, you know, I think as we'll talk about, it can have negative effects and positive effects and it's not bad or good, you know? Um, but I think like really consciously engaging with it is, is ultimately like what makes us fruitful. You know, I was also thinking about this episode and this topic and the last couple of topics. And I'm like, I don't want this to come across like, man running is just the the path for like deep dark like personal work and it's like hard and and gnarly right like i was thinking maybe even next episode should be really focused on like the joy aspect of it but you know as we find a deeper purpose with our movement practices you know and running is the sort of main example we're playing with like evolution is the goal right like self-realization is the goal and and that just involves you know our the depths of our unconscious humanity and human experience as well as the you know letting in the the divine and the light and the love and the joy as well and so we're kind of like focusing on these tools as ways to just like cultivate the ground you know um make it fertile turn it up like explore the terrain And so it can be fun, right?

3:49It can be illuminating, especially the less we attach to things. And I think that idea of attachment, right, is so tied into how our identity is created. And that's ultimately like what the ego's use of relativity in comparison is, is sort of a self-preservation mechanism that we're affirming we're either not as good or we are denying that belief that we're not good enough and finding evidence that we are better than, you know, and using both of those at times in a variety of ways to feel, you know, okay enough. in the moment and ultimately to avoid shame. Like my experience is like, we will do every single thing possible to avoid the feeling of shame, which is the felt experience of the belief of not being good enough.

4:46I love that. And I think as I've continued to explore this topic myself, I've been trying to figure out how to speak to relativity without value judgments. you know even on the value judgment of relativity right i think things like competition sometimes get a bad a bad rap and and even things like shame sometimes get a bad rap or sometimes shame is the appropriate feeling um and i've been the closest i can get to with maybe where to start with relativity is um relativity offers orientation right relativity for better or for worse, right? It lets you, it gives you indicators as to where you're at.

5:34And I think to give a bit of grace to all of us that may be attached to relativities at times, it's part of our coding as a species, right? You know, we're a social species that requires relative awareness. You know, I think it can be, relativity can be an inroad to awareness such that we can survive in our collective. Unfortunately, as humans, we don't tend to bode well on our own. And so we have to be aware of those things. And one of the things that was really fascinating when I was researching it as well is that it's estimated that around, on average, 12 % of all thoughts are ones of relativity.

6:21So, you know, one in 10, more than one in 10 thoughts is in relation. And so, I think as we keep talking about it, what are the modes of relativity that feel very constructive and being in relation with versus destructive and that comparison devolving into something that ultimately doesn't cultivate more growth. so jumping from from maybe that point of ground when did your journey with relativity specifically within sport um and maybe in running feel the most uh palpable perhaps in retrospect yeah and uh yeah i think i'll share something in a second but just to kind of continue from your last thought, like, I think it's helpful maybe for us to relatively define what we're talking about.

7:21Like the mind might be like, well, everything is relative, right? And in a deeper sense, everything is in relationship, right? There are just, every human is in relationship. We are constantly in relationship with our environment, other people, the present moment, you know, all these things. And the sort of highest version of that relationship is interdependence, right? And it's like, we are all a living organism that needs one another, right? Just like the trees and the plants and the clouds and the rain and the animals and the humans. And it's, it's all a giant organism that is functioning together interdependently, right?

8:05So I think that is great. That's beautiful. It's magical. It's mystical. It's like unreal almost. It's hard to fathom for the mind. Right. And so when we're talking about this, um, you know, it's really from this like mind perspective or egoic perspective of like comparison, right? Like, am I worse than, am I better than, what do I need to do to be better than, or as good as, or that sort of stuff, right? It's like where we are using our concept of self and comparing it to somebody else to essentially, yeah, feel okay, hopefully, you know, that's kind of like the goal of that process. And so, you know, I think like, as we think about what, which is really a codependent mechanism, right?

9:00It's codependent for others. I need somebody else to be worse than me to feel better or I need somebody else to be better than me to feel bad because I maybe believe consciously that I'm not good enough or something like that. So really kind of want to undo that, right? Because underneath that, we are whole, we are complete, and we are already in relationship and we are already in an interdependent relationship with the universe, you know, let alone just the planet and all the things on it. So kind of like, yeah, leaving that as like the foundation for what we're exploring is like the deeper truths of our relative existence, um, which are beautiful, you know, and then there's this kind of more like surface level distorted experience of it, which is what creates, you know, discomfort and suffering generally.

9:50Um, and so, yeah, this kind of like really hit me, um, last year we were doing a half marathon program and we were halfway through or something and we did a 10k time trial and so there was seven of us on the team and everyone kind of had a goal for like the half marathon in five or six weeks and we went out to the rose bowl and you know had the whatever race shoes race kits if we were doing bicarb if we were whatever the fueling strategy you know like kind of make it race appropriate so it was like you know real deal let's go for it and um yeah for me it was really basically hard to reconcile uh once this came to a finish because on one hand I hit the goal that I needed to to be on track for my I think like 128 half marathon goal.

10:48So it was like really the only goal that mattered objectively to me in my journey and my goal. Right. But then I have this other like mental attachment to running under 40 minutes, which I didn't do. And so now I'm like comparing to my self 10 years earlier or something when I was probably the fastest I had been. And it's like, well, I'm way not as good as that, you know, um plus this kind of collective idea of 40 minute 10k being under that to me is like you're a runner if you do that and you're not if you can't you know which is absolutely silly but there's like some kind of weird belief that that's the case and then amongst the group of us i think i finished fifth out of the seven and one of the people who finished behind me was pacing the slower person.

11:44So I came sort of last of the fast group and at least two guys in that group that beat me, I thought I was going to be for sure. And so then that was like really confronting, you know? And so I had all these factors of like this kind of 40 minute thing, the relativity amongst the group, then I'm like hitting my goal. It was a successful time trial in terms of my own running journey and path on that. And so the mind just couldn't make sense of it. It's like, well, this is good enough. This is not good enough. Doesn't fit together. I can't make sense of this. Right. And so kind of like, um, like a Zen koan, right.

12:28It kind of just breaks the mind and it sort of cracks open and you see the layer underneath riches, you know, shame basically. Cause even if I, so if I had failed my own goal and I've been like, okay, it's just all around failure. Yes. I'm not good enough. And like, I could probably brush that off without having to feel the shame almost, you know, or if I came second, ran 39 minutes and, you know, and hit all the goals, the ego would have been like, yes, I am good enough all around. I knew it. These guys are bums. I'm going to smoke them, you know, which is ultimately not that productive or, or healthy and certainly not the purpose, you know?

13:12And so I was stranded in this middle zone, which was just like impossible for the mind to make sense of. And ultimately that sort of cracked it open. It was like, Oh, I just have to feel this. I just have to feel this. There's no making sense of it. Right. It doesn't make sense. And this year I've been humbly reminded that like love doesn't make sense, you know, and the mind and the ego are such a sense making mechanism and it really ties us in knots. Right. And so the exploration of this, this experience for me is like that, not kind of just coming undone, which is confronting and somewhat painful in the moment, but ultimately beautiful because it creates freedom.

14:02It lets me come back to myself in a more deep way and, you know, run my own race. You know, the experience is the, is the goal. The effort is the goal. Like, I think that if we can stay connected with that idea, you know, then the relativity can sort of start to dissolve away. Yeah, I think it's interesting to hear you describe with such clarity the common thing you hear in social comparison theory more generally, right? You're usually comparing up or you're comparing down. And this is a fascinating one because some people that you were comparing down to, maybe through training, that said, oh, I'm faster than these people.

14:46This makes me feel good about myself. They're clearly good enough athletes where it still feels good to you, but not good enough where they're maybe better than you in a quantifiable way. And you also had these other people that you expected to finish above you that did finish above you. And there was a dissonance in the finish of, whoa, I didn't finish above any of these people. The ones that I was chasing, and now I no longer can appreciate that I was chasing because the ones below me got closer to them than I did. And I still accomplished my time. And my team still accomplished my time. And so that should have been the ultimate goal in the first place.

15:31But now we're interfacing with these other points of dissonance. And what do we do with these? And I think for me, that's what makes sport really valuable in exploring these things is because it forces you to confront realities that you might not cognitively understand or want to identify with. But that happened, right? What happened happened. The numbers are the numbers and your relative position is fact. from that perspective the the danger as you noted is when we start to go therefore i am i'm not worthy of love therefore i'm not you know and i think what what's interesting for me about sport is that your your splits should never define your self-worth or the self-worth of others.

16:35And I think for me, even that's, sometimes it's hard for me to hold that to myself because so much of my life, most of the good things in my life, as I saw it, were afforded to me because of my athletic ability and the success that I had. And so the idea of me not holding par with that or not being able to affirm that identity within certain constructs meant that I would literally lose those things. Yeah. At least in my head. And I think what's helped me get away from that then, it was hard for me when I was younger, but as I've gotten older, where granted it also has less of an impact on me, the thing that's been the most helpful is when I try to apply that to other people.

17:25You know, at least for me, if I were to say, man Ryan I really could have appreciate and loved you if you just would have beat those two guys you know you know and that's of course or like you know what you do deserve to be treated with more respect and dignity or whatever it is and of course that's not the case irrespective of of your ability whether you're a multi-million dollar pro athlete or whether you're somebody who just started running yesterday and and it's a tool where you can learn what growth feels like and learn how to confront realities that maybe have a dissonance or a koan-like quality to them that allow you to understand that life's not fair and that things are not always as they seem and da-da-da-da-da.

18:14But what I've been focusing on now is how do I continue to cultivate that sense of self-worth irrespective of outcomes, specifically performance outcomes and self and other, and how do I allow that to fuel deeper states of competition and growth and goals in these other constructs but not in a way that goes downstream. Yeah, it's tricky. I mean, I think it's a practice of developing our awareness and then catching these patterns because they're just conditioned into us. Even the illumination of like, oh, I'm better than this person. I should beat him in a 10K. And now I don't. And now I'm questioning how good I am as a person, right?

19:03Like, wow, interesting that that is what's feeding this self-concept, right? And identity. Also interesting, I think I'm better than that person. What is that based on? You know, what judgments is that based on? And, you know, as you were just referencing kind of the evolution of this through childhood you know i think of like playing like especially little league baseball was like very serious if i like think about being 12 and my dad's the coach and like how stressed out he was about like making the lineups and the weekend game and like you know all the things and my mom would come to probably all the games i think you know but then she would say sports are stupid, you know, like professional sports and how much people are getting paid and just like, who cares, you know?

19:58And so it was like very challenging to reconcile this seems like maybe the most important thing in the world and it's stupid and you're showing up and cheering for me. And, but also it's like not meaningful, you know, it was like, how do you reconcile that? And I think like those childhood experiences, whatever version of it we have, you know, really informs this. And I think that's why most people don't enter competition as adults. You know, there's leftover trauma from childhood sports experiences, whether we were the best on the team and we won the championship, or we were the worst on the team and we weren't getting picked or, you know, whatever that stuff is, right.

20:44It's like, it brings uncomfortable feelings up, right. If you're the best on your team as a 12 year old or 15 year old, you know it. And the pressure is real, whether it's from maybe your coach or it's from your dad or maybe from your mom, you know, like it's, it's intense, right. It's intense to hold that and carry that, like you said, to bear, to carry. And so how does that now come into our adult lives, right? And, and our casual run group, how does that show up or our ride group or whatever? Right. And where are we still trying to prove to our dad that we're like good enough on our, you know, weekend 10 K or what?

21:28And probably, you know, or we weren't good enough. And we just like, let that be, you know, affirmed as well. And so it's really challenging, but like aiming our awareness into this with curiosity is going to illuminate these patterns and you can't let go of them if you don't illuminate them, right? You can't, they can't be healed and transmuted without awareness. And so all of these things have the opportunity to bring that, you know, And I think understandably so most people don't want to do that. And actually everything is geared to not doing that, right? To not feeling shame. Like I was saying, it's like, I think it's pretty much the thing that is the last thing anyone ever wants to do.

22:14Right. So to aim yourself towards that potentially is, you know, it takes courage, right? But the joy and the fruitfulness of the other side of that is so great and it's so rewarding and empowering, you know, empowering in the sense of like, it's more and more okay to just be ourselves. Right. And that is freedom, safety, ease, joy, you know, playfulness all emerges from that state. And so there's a, there's a treasure in there, right. And like Joseph Campbell, um, you know, the, the cave, which you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek. And it's like, this is like sport offers that opportunity.

23:02So can you engage with sport with competition? Maybe it's some other kind of competition, you know? Um, and even within running, I was saying this, like, I think obviously trail running has, you know, epically beautiful, um, things to offer, you know, being in nature, sometimes the solitude, you know, just there's, there's great stuff about it objectively. but I think a lot of people, this huge move to trail running is, is also a big rejection of the seriousness and the rigidity of in road running, right. And marathon times and 10 K times or whatever it is. And maybe people run in track workouts until they puke.

23:45Right. And it's like, whoa, like that's, I don't want that. Right. I want to just like move, but take it easy. and again there's no right or wrong with that but i think to some degree it's a weird avoidance sometimes of some of that stuff and so as we kind of get into this marathon block now like i'm really trying to like orient myself and the group towards like let's use this seriousness these hard kind of time benchmarks as catalysts right because like they're gonna illuminate these beliefs and things a lot quicker. Yeah, I love that. And I think something that comes up for me that I've been reflecting on a lot in the last year is the increasing, alongside the increase of trail running, which again, as we noted, is beautiful and all the things, of course, there's so much there, especially the ultra, the distance, the vert, of course and uh there's also still value in the road and for me even the track like i've been so the most moving nights i've had as a runner and both as a part of part of a running group have been on track nights and seeing the also the rise of track nights coming back into the running zeitgeist is really exciting for me not only as someone who ran a little bit of track growing up but just because there there's something so beautiful about seeing people really push it at shorter distances and seeing what that's like in a safe environment right like i'll never forget i was at a track night last year and seeing people of course you're different heats relative to to your speed and just because you can't all run at once and seeing just the same amount sometimes even more excitement for people that were giving 120 you know falling at the finish for a nine minute mile versus the guy who ran a four minute mile five minutes ago, that touched me so deeply.

26:13And I think it showed me the importance of a really strong culture of competition, a culture of pushing oneself and what that can look like along a spectrum. Because not only can that happen within a team, it happens with you, like myself included. I am nowhere near my fastest mile time right now, especially coming off of an injury and very inconsistent running of the last 11 months since I got injured. And, and every time I go out to the track, I just went up to the track two weeks ago and I had to sit there and go, okay, like I, I'm probably not going to hit that time. I might not come even close to that time, but I might do it.

27:00I don't know who's to say you know i have to allow myself the belief that i could and what i can do is for the last episode i can control my attitude my effort my behavior and i tell you what i'm gonna do i'm gonna go until i can't and uh and for me i feel like as i've gotten older and as i've you know gone further in my own journey with athletics, there's a certain amount of bravery to that, willingness to see what happens in an environment that is relatively safe that I don't know if there's anything in my life that affords more insight and self-resilience than that. Yeah. Yeah. It takes a lot of courage to do that, to push yourself to that edge.

27:58Right. And I think that mantra of like, I don't know what's possible, right. Is, is important because as soon as we start to think, we know it's possible, we're putting a lid on our potential essentially. And so, yeah, I think it's, it's important to do that, you know, and to acknowledge those other pieces too. Like I might not be as fast as I was six months ago, six years ago, whatever the case. But if the effort is the goal, right? Because I like to think of the heart as this compass of truth. It's like, did I give my best effort? Yes. Then that is the only answer that matters, right? And there's no relativity there.

28:43It's just like, did I give my best? Yes or no? And accepting each answer and acknowledging it and taking the next step, it doesn't mean anything about who I am. bad good doesn't affect that at all right but it's like if we can be like yeah i gave my best effort it's nothing to do with anyone else and it's the only answer that really matters right and that is like the lack of codependence right and then it's from that place where we can really enjoy competition right and like thought of this you know christian blumenfeld in the triathlon space you know, he almost always, you know, well, lately he wins a lot, you know, and he wins and then he stays out and cheers on the people finishing a half Ironman in like eight hours or whatever it is, seven hours.

29:33Meanwhile, he was done in three and a half hours. And it's like, he says like, that was just as hard for that person finishing in seven and a half hours as it was for me finishing in three and a half hours. Right. So like, there's like a pure hearted relativity like the effort was relatively just as hard for each of those people going at such different speeds but for their physiology and where they're at you know in terms of endurance it was just as hard and so you know that's a beautiful example to me of like how relativity can be connecting.

30:12Exactly. And I think allowing us to see each other and celebrate in each other's relativity is also, I think, a really beautiful, beautiful thing. Another thing that I've found is a very commonly held trait in the best runners I've ever met is they just never assume anything in a fascinating way. I remember one guy I remember talking to, and he was saying how you never assume. I never assume that a run is going to be hard or a workout is going to be hard. I also never assume that it's going to be easy. I just come and essentially I try not to make a value judgment until his whole thing was like I don't make value judgments until I'm halfway so he's like I'll get halfway through the workout and then I'll say how am I feeling am I really struggling am I whatever and then I say let's check in again at the halfway point from this so then he's at the 75 % mark of whatever it is and he said by that point you only have 25 % less So if I say, ah, well, I feel terrible, uh, or I feel great.

31:32The response is the same. Ah, there's only 25 % left. Might as well just put it all out there and see what happens. Um, but for me, when I can make those, when I can chunk out those goals or chunk out that workout, it allows me to not get ahead of myself and go, Oh man, I got two more laps and how am I going to feel? It doesn't matter how I'm going to feel. How do I feel now? And let's not ask that question until we get to the next, checkpoint. And then let's just wait till we're far enough along in the race where if we burn out, so be it. Yeah, no, I think that's a great example. And because even when he's doing that check-in, right, the question isn't, is this a good workout or a bad workout?

32:11It's like, how do I feel? Oh, I feel pretty good today. Or I'm not feeling too good today. It's just an observation of our experience. There's no good, bad, this is worthless. This is the best I'm better than I'm not as good as, you know, it's just, Oh, I'm just observing my experience. And that's great. You know, then what does your mind say about that? Once you've observed like, Oh, I feel good. You know, can you just enjoy feeling good? You know, if you're feeling bad and you're still going to like finish the workout, like, can you be like, wow, look how resilient I am. Like, look how committed and devoted to this process I am.

32:51Right. Cause like, it's those hard workouts when people don't want to go and they go do it you know or they think it's going to be hard and it ends up being those are the ones that like stick with us right so there's so much gold in those experiences but it requires well it's at least a lot more helpful to have that space between like oh this is how i'm feeling this is just how my body's feeling there's nothing to do with me it's just what i'm experiencing and so we can roll with those you know punches in a way and what's fascinating is sometimes as you get further along in your athletic experience you get more comfortable with the hard right like if you if you get to a certain level you're definitely going to be very good at handling hard things and what's interesting though is that oftentimes it's the easy workout that then creates the spiral because you know this idea if I just have workouts I don't have easy and hard workouts I just have workouts and I do what I'm supposed to do I give if it's my 60 % I give it 100 % of my 60 % like you said and I don't assume and and I remember yeah yeah I remember having a few conversations with people about how they would run this crazy hard workout do this insane time and then they'd have to run a five mile at zone two and all of a sudden they were freaking out because it was really slow and it wasn't and their calf was hurting and and they're just like oh my god i thought this was going to be easy and like i'm kind of struggling right now and what what's going on and uh it's funny how it can show up there too especially once you get so comfortable with redlining, you know?

34:43So either way, you know, you have to go there. And I think, again, the most common thing I find in people that are just good at growing are people, whether it be in sport or not, they're people that continue to face that edge humbly, bravely, without a ceiling and are, they don't desire, but are willing to fail and willing to learn from that relativity, even with themselves. And I think, again, I think that's the biggest misunderstanding with great athletes is that they have this hyper-confidence such that they don't interrogate failure when it could not be further from that. Like every workout is definitionally designed to break them again and again and again you know and so can you keep showing up and can in that showing up can you not let it break you you know and break your resolve which you can't you know really it can't like we are like unbreakable untarnishable beings at the core but the fear is that it will break us right so yeah it's quite a interesting dance but it is a great avenue to explore that, you know, and it's funny.

35:59Yeah. I think like the slow workouts, you know, in terms of running, like there's so much more time and space to think. Right. And like thinking gets in the way of being thinking gets in the way of loving, you know, and if you're pushing VO two max, like there's not much space and time for thinking. Right. And so it's really, it's very interesting, you know, thinking of like a 5k, you know, versus like a 50k. Right. And you can kind of go to similar places, but the 5k is going to be a lot faster and a lot shorter in the 50k. It might be a lot longer and, you know, more subtle in a way, you know?