Issue 1: Pursuit of Pain

23:46Ryan Willms:Yeah, now it is. Now it is for sure. Because I think like, you know, having clarity of what the truth is and then embodying it, that's what brings peace and freedom. And that's all we want. We just want to feel at peace, to be free, to be ourselves, to be free of suffering. right and it's like funny that the suffering leads us to the peace and the freedom right like it's kind of a it's kind of a dangerous game that we're playing like we kind of we forget that but that's like the great purpose of suffering is to help us remember the truth of of who we are what we are but if we're not relating to it in that way, then we just keep doing it and doing it, right?

24:34Ryan Willms:It's like we just keep accruing karma, we just keep suffering and wondering why it's not working. And we're kind of in that loop of insanity of you're trying to do the same thing over and over again. But you're trying to like, solve the problem from the same level of consciousness that created it. And so it's like, oh, wait, this actually is for a greater purpose, right? And then I remember that. And so okay, now the suffering, the intensity of that suffering has allowed me to see the truth and remember who I am, what I am, now I can kind of put down the suffering, you know, like Ram Dass says, like you can use a thorn to get the thorn out of your foot, but put down the second thorn, you know, don't just jam that one in and leave it there.

25:18Ryan Willms:And I think that's what we see a lot, especially with like ultra stuff right it's like the addict or the whatever and you know and and endurance just generally too um it's like yeah you could say like running marathons or ultra marathons is healthier than doing loads of drugs right and the issues that that leads to it for sure but at the same time it can be that next thorn right and you just leave it in and it's like I deserve to suffer. It's the only way I can ever be useful to the world is just to suffer eternally, you know, and try to, I don't know what that's supposed to do, but, you know, it's, it's an interesting part of the human experience and I don't think it's becoming less popular, which is quite funny.

26:11Ryan Lynch:Yeah, that is interesting. When you're, I'm wondering how you set goals, because if you don't want to be tied to an outcome,

26:25Ryan Lynch:and is it fair to say that you are interested in pursuing pain in an arena like this, or is that not a fair statement? Is that just something that comes along the way?

26:36Ryan Willms:Yeah, I don't particularly like pain, and I don't want it. And I find that when I have hard sessions, fear comes up. I get nervous. I'm like, Oh, like 14 times four minutes at threshold, you know, like, I don't know if I can do it, you know? And so lately, especially the last couple of months, my practice is like, well, I don't know. It's possible. I don't know. I can't do that. I don't know. It's not going to be easy, you know? And so I don't go looking for pain. Like what I go looking for is the most dynamic, expansive, richest human experiences for me. You know, it's like, that was the clarity I had of why to have a child, you know, it was the same as like, why to do a half Ironman, why to run a marathon.

27:28And so like, I don't need to go run a hundred

27:31Ryan Willms:miles to have a really intense physical experience, be connected to people to share, share that, you know? Um, but maybe I will someday, you know, maybe that will be a chapter of pursuing that, you know, but, you know, to come back to your question about goal setting, like, I think this is a really interesting one because I'm actually like very pro competition and racing. Like, I think, I think it's, it's freaking awesome. Like it's, it's such a unique experience that we get to have. Right. And like, I'm about looking for exciting, interesting experiences and competition racing. This is a really unique experience that we get to have generally in a pretty safe environment, you know?

28:21Ryan Willms:So like, we can be safe to go into the unknown, to find out what's possible to, you know, witness that in other humans as well. And so like, I think it would be healthy if more people and, you know, I think women too, for sure, you know, they're very inspiring, but as a man, I just know the male experience more intimately. And so, and kind of looking at the sort of archetype of the masculine, I think more men should be in competition, you know, whether it's running or a jujitsu competition or, you know, something physical. Um, I think there's so much value in learning who you are and what's possible and, and skills and connection and all these things, um, and being embodied, right?

29:07Ryan Willms:Like so much of movement is about being embodied and not thinking and overthinking. And so again, back to your question, I think the goal setting is, is really important. Like, and I kind of look at it as like a devotional practice, like here's my goal and I'm going to be so devoted to it because I want to reflect back and be like, wow, I did my best, right? I did my best in this process day after day after day, but holding that goal as lightly as possible, you know? And so then the goal and the training block is the catalyst. like it's you need you kind of need a container you need a catalyst for what are you aiming at right like if i'm gonna aim at a four-hour marathon or a three-hour marathon it's gonna be a very different pursuit um and so it's like we try to figure out what is going to be hard for us to aim at you know can i do it i don't know and so that makes it exciting that makes it like going into the unknown.

30:16Ryan Willms:And so can I go into the unknown with training partners, with a team really devoted to my goal, running my race, you know, having my experience and just using the metrics as like the guidelines basically for exploration. So that, that's kind of like how I pursue and think about goal setting. Like, I think it's really valuable and I think it really is a potent catalyst for, you know, not only self-knowledge through movement, but just lifestyle, you know, like if I'm like, oh, I just signed up for marathon. I'm just going to like, whatever. I'm not going to like go do a hot cold. I'm not going to worry about eating as healthy.

30:59Ryan Willms:I'm not going to like get my blood tested and make sure like I'm healthy. I'm not going to like maybe go see a PT and see like, oh, are my hips aligned? Like is running this much like a good idea even, or is there something I should do to make sure not only I can run, but run healthy, run for a long time? And so I think all of these really positive pieces fall into alignment more when we've got this kind of catalyst to tie them together. Yeah.

31:33Ryan Lynch:It's fascinating how much you seem to need those big goals in those competitive environments to meet the truth, you know. And in meeting of that truth, how one stays sensitive to the world and not, you know, so pain tolerant or not dissociative in some sort of way. and also able to still accept oneself irrespective of if you hit the goal or not right and maybe sometimes in hitting the goal not letting yourself get out of that moment as well you know it's fascinating how much the wins and the losses impact you. And I think, at least for me, I, you know, I felt very fortunate growing up where I was in an environment as a soccer player, primarily where there was, you know, my dad's a coach, there's high expectations of me.

32:46Ryan Lynch:I appreciate those expectations. I'm going to be in a competitive environment and the expectation is that i'm going to win every time and a large part of that is going to have to do with me doing something to make sure that happens i know that the opposing team knows that every player that i matched up against knows that and they're actively going to be trying to stop that and so of course it doesn't always work and then funnily enough when it does work they go okay cool now you're going to be playing a year up and then you finally you know you get beaten down for a while we're making it way harder for you yeah we're gonna make it way harder for you and you know as soon as you start to feel like you know like you're the man we're gonna make it harder for you and how do you deal with that going from okay now you're you know scoring a couple goals a game doing this that and the other thing to now you're lowest on the totem pole again you got to work your way up and everybody's gonna be beating up on you and you don't have your physicality now because they're older than you and you know that kept you know kept happening and I think uh now that I've you know in adulthood I didn't really understand the value of that at the time.

33:51Ryan Lynch:And I think the reason it became fruitful for me was just because, you know, I didn't end up making it to what I wanted to make. But it did cultivate a space in me where the pursuit of that, of those difficult goals and not getting comfortable while also still appreciating oneself, irrespective of what happens, was something that, yeah, I can't really put a price on. And it's still something that I have to work with because, you know, I'll say all this and then I'll go train or I'll go play a pickup game or I'll go run. And I'll find myself being like, oh, you know, I'm only as good as my last race or I'm only as good as I.

34:31Ryan Lynch:I can't believe that person beat me. And I'm also so glad that they beat me because now I'm closer to the truth of where I'm at. and and now i have to face that and i have to figure out how to frame that in a way that's useful um you have to do that over and over and it's it's something that's not static like it is something that you have to continue to condition irrespective of how much you've done it really is a practice yeah because you might be that person next month or whatever right like it's not like

35:09Ryan Willms:that means that person's better than you forever, but sometimes that's what it feels like. And so, yeah, I mean, it is super interesting. Like you're making me think of like high school times. Right. And like I, basketball was like my main pursuit in high school. Like I loved it the most and our team was good. I went to this high school to play basketball. It was the high school Steve Nash went to, um, you know, we dominated our area, you know, but come provincials like, you know we weren't favorites by any means and we fell short there the summer before like senior year I made like the provincial team which is like the state team and so there's like 12 of us from like all the teams all over the the province and it's like I go from being like the man to I'm on the bench and I'm like why did this coach even pick me like I don't fit his style at all you know it's like really confusing and so it's like to make sense of that right and and yeah to get put in these places where it's like oh this it feels like the stakes are higher it's harder like the competition's harder the coaching is different and it's like yeah what is the point of that like as a height as a 15 16 year old or whatever you know it's like it's pretty hard to just not be experiencing it and doing your best to handle it but like i think like resilience you know and self-belief is got to be the deeper lessons you know and um there's this scene in in cars three where like this car always wanted to be a racer and she's like she chickened out basically on her first race and just never went for it and she became a trainer and so her and lightning McQueen are having a fight and she's like can I ask you like what was it like for you to like you know think you could do it and he's like I just never thought I couldn't you know and it's like man what a potent like line and there's so much in that from like you know white privilege and men versus women and all that kind of stuff but like how can we embody that level of belief in ourselves consciously like that is like the goal right it's like i can do anything and believe it and live it and know that if i fail it doesn't mean i still can't do anything like i can do anything doesn't mean i can't do anything and so that that to me is like really from a human level is like yeah like cultivating that

38:00Ryan Lynch:belief with awareness is what's interesting yeah i've long wondered how one does that and i think the greatest athletes all have a version of that and it reminds me actually of and it doesn't mean that they don't lose. I think that's the other thing people have to remember that, you know, in every sporting event, no matter what it is, 99 % of the participants lose, you know, and there's far more losing than there is winning, even if you're, you know, at the top top. And And I saw a work at the SF MoMA. They did an exhibition all on, it was all about, you know, the athletic experience and mindset.

38:52Ryan Lynch:I can't remember the exact curatorial title or I unfortunately can't remember the artist either. But I'll never forget it was this high school letterman jacket. So classic, you know, leather jacket. it. And on the back, in the in the brush script cursive, it just said, like, biggest failure. And in reading more about the work, it was reframing the understanding of the athlete. And, you know, the typical notion of the jock being this hyper confident person who wins all the time, when in fact, they're just the most intimate with failure. And they pursue it over and over and over again. And funnily enough, that the further you get, the more you have to reach for that edge, right?

39:39Ryan Lynch:Or you have to, you know, reach for the places that will often cause pain, not for the sake of pain, but for the sake of what's required to grow. You know, I think when I was doing some research here, I was reminded of this idea of hormesis, right? So the phenomenon where, you You know, a small dose of something that typically would be really damaging for you or toxic becomes a beneficial adaptive response in an organism. Whereas too much of it actually does cause damage and can hurt you or kill you. And this is really the basic biological premise of, you know, all biological growth in most cases.

40:28Ryan Lynch:So, you know, exercise, you know, weightlifting, sauna, cold plunge, even you could say the immune system is a version of this. And I think the constant dance is finding, it's peering, getting to that edge, peering over it, and knowing when to come back before it goes too far. In the spirit of that, I'm curious how you discern when pain and or suffering feels like it's gone past the point of hormesis and maybe goes into that zone of toxicity and how you respond to something like that.

41:14Ryan Willms:I mean, I think that is really, it's, it's a, that's like the psychological pain that you're talking about. Like if you just run so far that your legs literally just collapse, like you're kind of okay. Like you'll probably be able to walk and run again, you know, within a couple months or something. Like it's not that big of a deal, you know, but like if you're just constantly placing all of your identity on the results of your sport, you know, and you just keep failing and failing and failing and failing and failing, you're going to believe that you're a failure. And no matter how hard you try, it's not good enough.

41:56Ryan Willms:Right. And so I think like, that's where, you know, I think of Michael Jordan, right. I think he's the greatest basketball player ever. And, you know, he was so fueled by like anger and fear, you know, he would read a tiny snippet in a newspaper and like, use that, you know, to just get to just want to absolutely bury somebody. and i think like because he wasn't aware of what he was doing you know on on a deeper level so like you can use it for that and that's what like most of the best athletes are fueled by right so like what we're talking about i generally wouldn't prescribe this level of self-inquiry if you're trying to win a gold at the Olympics.

42:46Ryan Willms:Like you should just stay, keep your horse blinders on, do it, no sense. And just like, you know, take care of your body, you know, have that experience. But, you know, we're talking about basically everyone else. Right. And so if we are unaware of what's driving us and it's fear and shame and guilt and the belief that we're bad, like that is going to be a buildup of toxicity, whether or not we hit the time or not, you know? And so I think like, that's why like doing this with conscious awareness is, is important because reframing like the, the actual goal, it's like, yeah, I have a time goal.

43:32Ryan Willms:That's the catalyst to inform my training, you know, where is my fitness and how can I push myself into that pain cave, enjoyment, expression of the training in a like responsible way, you know, but really the win is knowing like, wow, I gave that my best. I tried my best, you know, and I, and I soaked up each training session. I wasn't like, got to do this to get to the next one. Got to do this to get the next one. It's like, you know hopefully part of the goal is being present with our experience of life like that joseph campbell quote you know i don't think most people are looking for purpose but more they're looking for the experience of life you know and it's like or the experience of being alive and it's like yeah like that's why we're doing it right and you can experience being alive on a three mile recovery run and you can experience being alive on a full marathon race day, you know, and it's like to just show up, soak it up.

44:43Ryan Willms:The experience is the point and do your best. And you will find out some stuff about yourself and the universe in the process. And that's interesting. You know, it might be, it might just be like a belief. It might be like, Oh my God, I know the meaning of life and the purpose of the universe and like what I'm here for, it might be like, oh, I believe I can't do it. My mind is saying you can't do it. You should quit. That's interesting. You know, is that true? Like that is a profound experience. If you can bring your awareness to it and be the observer of it and not get sucked into the belief, right?

45:26Ryan Willms:Like we don't want to get rid of the ego, we can't, but we do want to transcend its beliefs, those unconscious beliefs. And I find sport is a great way to bring awareness to them and illuminate them so that we can start to actually work with them and find out what's actually true. Yeah.

45:46Ryan Lynch:And it feels like something where in that truth, you can experience it in that moment, which to your point is really the ultimate goal here. And sometimes if you're able to continue to practice it and cultivate it, it can extend beyond that moment in a way that's also really useful. I think there's something about pushing yourself and where that takes you, often pain being one of those illuminators where you really find out, you know, who you are. I know we were talking a little bit about, you know, René Desmal, the infamous French alpinist and philosopher, writer. And, you know, he has this quote that I love from his book, A Night of Serious Drinking, which one of the better titles you could probably write.

46:49Ryan Lynch:Philosophy teaches man how he thinks he thinks, but drinking shows how he really thinks. And I think you could substitute that with running or even in this case, pain, right? Like you may think that you know how you think. But trust me, when you reach the door of the pain cave, you will learn how you really think. And there's something about that moment or right when you get into the ice bath, where you find out exactly who you are in those sorts of moments. And what's interesting is the more you do it, the more discovery you tend to have. Like, I mean, I've even had experiences where as many times as I've went, oh my, oh my goodness, like I'm really afraid in this moment.

47:39Ryan Lynch:And I thought I was prepared. I've also had moments where the opposite happens and I go, oh, I'm significantly stronger than I thought. uh and and and who knows what i could withstand yeah who knows what's possible you know who knows what's possible and i think it was it's important for people to have those experiences too um and and they really do happen in a wonderful way in these arenas as well yeah no i think so i mean

48:12Ryan Willms:and it's like it could be in a job interview right or like a big meeting or a presentation like you know we're talking of like sport as a metaphor it's like sport's not really a metaphor it's just life and then the other parts of life are also life like there's not work-life balance there's working as part of life not working as part of life eating as part of life sleeping it's like it's all life right and so we can use sport to consciously enter into something right and it's like that's for me what i find interesting about like medicine work with like mushrooms or mdma or ayahuasca where it's like, I'm choosing to step into this unknown scary arena, but it's a held container.

48:53Ryan Willms:It's for a period of time. And so in that space, I feel safe enough to go into the unknown. Right. And so running a marathon, I don't know if I can run a marathon in two hours, 58 minutes, you know, but I'm going to do my training. I'm going to enter into this unknown space that is, you know, a safe container, relatively speaking and find out what comes up. Right. And so like we can use anything as a spiritual practice, but I find yeah, sport and endurance sport is unique in that way. And like last year we did a 12 week half marathon group program with like six or seven of us. And, you know, it was super fun, super interesting.

49:39Ryan Willms:Everyone had a good race, which was, it makes it more fun. But, you know, I noticed how tense I was going into like the race and the night before and just all these factors. And so three of us signed up for another half marathon, I want to say four weeks later, maybe four or five weeks later. And my whole next, like took probably one or two weeks off. And then it was like, I was noticing that fear on the like intensive workouts, intervals and stuff like that. And so I was like, okay, I'm going to like really orient to this fear coming up. I don't even know what it is, but I know I feel it. And so I started doing like micro doses before the run and just being like, okay, like two miles into this interval, I know it's going to bubble up.

50:26Ryan Willms:Can I just stay calm and feel my way through? And there was always like peace and clarity on the other side of that, you know? And so So after being all attached to a goal in the first race, the second race, I was just like, all right, I'm going to take a microdose before I'm going to go out dangerously fast for me. And cause I don't know what's possible. Like, I know the fear was restricting me in the last race. I was not like expressing freedom and peace, you know? And so this was like, okay, if I blow up after 10 miles and walk back to the start, like I'm okay with that. And so I really like put myself deeper into that place.

51:07Ryan Willms:And because there wasn't a part of a program, nobody was there documenting it. I felt more free and safe to do that. and um you know i ended up beating that half marathon time by like two or three minutes and you know met some demons for sure mile 10 11 12 and it was like you can't do this you better stop you better stop and i was just like i hear you but i don't know if that's true you know and what is true and like the body i could hang on for sure you know and i remember i'm like wow I didn't gain any, you're not improving three minutes on a half marathon in four weeks due to any type of training.

51:50Ryan Willms:It was pure embrace the fear, open the mind to it, open my mind to the possibility of failure, you know, as well as the, the opportunity for success, whatever that is, you know. and I remember crossing the line and I was like, well, that was fun. Like that was, that was a quite an experience, you know? And it was really cool, you know? And like, I think, you know, this is a funny way this ties in, in my mind right now, but like, I always have been a fearful of like couples counseling. The reason you want to do couples counseling is because you want success. You want more connection and a healthy relationship.

52:33Ryan Willms:But you also have to accept the fact that maybe after a year of that, you are like, oh, maybe this isn't the relationship that we're supposed to be in right now. Right? So like that level of failure and pain is scary, but resisting the pain, resisting the failure, resisting what we mentally make of that limits and restricts the top end, right? The more love, the more openness, the more freedom. And so I think like that's another key part of like what sport and endurance sport can really offer when we're really like bringing awareness to it and engaging with these different kind of levels of it.

53:19Ryan Lynch:Yeah, I feel like the only, what's really great about sport is it really showcases this idea that the only constant is change. And some days you're going to be like, every day you're either better or worse. That's it. There actually is no, you never are the same as the next day. And I think that applies to all of your life in a way that can be pretty harrowing. It's not what you want to hear.

53:52Ryan Willms:It's the opposite of what the ego is looking for.

53:54Ryan Lynch:Yeah, absolutely. Um, but that, that's it.

53:58Ryan Willms:Yeah, sorry. Go ahead.

53:59Ryan Lynch:No, go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead.

54:00Ryan Willms:I was just going to say like, that was a huge learning from like the race team program last year to this year, you know, like you do go to training camp and you got a big day, like race day simulation five weeks before the race. And it just goes really bad. Like the mind is just like, Oh, I'm cooked. Like I can't even do the race. Like all my goals out the window, you know? And it's like, today's not the race. It's not the race today. You know, I had a four mile easy run last Friday that just felt terrible. And I'm like, well, good thing. It's not the race today. You know, then the next day we did like a hard brick section and I, you know, crushed it.

54:43Ryan Willms:And I'm like, wow, today's not the race either. Like don't get attached to anything. Just have the experience. And I think like, that is such a key thing is like, I don't know what's possible. And today doesn't actually mean anything. So just experience it for what it is.

55:02Ryan Lynch:Exactly. Do you, how do you feel about alter egos in the context of, of performance? I ask because I've noticed it's such a common thing that you find in really high performers. And you could talk about maybe why that is but i'm curious in your own self like

55:24Ryan Willms:that's interesting i've never yeah even thought about that like who what would you say like

55:30Ryan Lynch:conor mcgregor or like somebody like that i could go yeah i could go on and on um i think maybe the the inroad for the sake of conversation is probably eric potter as a good example very um very successful performance sports psychologist, you could say. He worked, he started actually with, I believe, like in the military with Navy SEALs. He then was with, you know, the Dodgers. He's worked with Michael Phelps. I mean, he could go on and on with his track record. But one of the things that he speaks a lot about that is common, you know, when you hear from at least contemporary sports or performance psychs is especially in extremely high pressure high intensity scenarios there seems to be a cognitive benefit at least in that context and often out of that context to having a specific place that one goes to that is still you, but it's just a dimension of you.

56:38Ryan Lynch:And the examples he gives are not just for the sake of becoming, you know, a better runner, but also, you know, a lot of the examples about becoming a better husband. You know, he talks about, you know, there's one example I remember from this Navy SEAL who'd gone through, you know, a lot of really intense situations where his core issue is that he would overreact to his three-year-old spilling milk in a way that was far greater than, you know, what is probably required. And in the interrogation, or not interrogation, the session, we should say, with Eric, they identified that in the context of being a Navy SEAL, yeah, you cannot afford those kinds of mistakes.

57:31Ryan Lynch:And that that would be an appropriate response because a mistake like that might get everyone killed. And so what he needed to do was essentially create a version of himself and a set of rituals that allow him to go in and out of that place, such that when he's at home, he's a version of himself as a father that he wants to be to perform as a great father, just in the same way that he makes him perform as a great seal. But those are not the same thing. And often bringing that version of himself into this other context is not usually fruitful. And my question has always been just like, is how integrated is that or not?

58:17Ryan Lynch:Or is that, you know, is that like, you know, is that disassociation healthy or not? Of course it's, it's a big topic, but I'm just curious if you've ever considered that or how that feels.

58:27Ryan Willms:My sense from like a big picture is that it's probably not healthy. Like it's probably functional, right? And it's good that somebody like that is going to do that. So you're not being a Navy SEAL with your three-year-old. Like, so that is, that's good and functional, but like, in the deepest sense, like we don't want to have any ego in the way of how we're reacting, right? Like essentially like, at least for me, you know, like the highest goal would be that spirit or love or God is just expressing through me, right? Through my heart in all moments. And it's infinite intelligence and wisdom is going to know what's required.

59:12Ryan Willms:So like if I'm on training camp with five teammates, like the warrior archetype, whatever that is for me naturally is going to express like, and then within that environment, it might be a tearful hug and it might be a gentle push and it might be a piercing challenge and it might be, you know, something else, just a compassionate look, you know? And so then I come home and, you know, my wife doesn't want that, you know, and, but like, if ideally I'm not even thinking about it. Right. It's just like through my heart, through my intuition, through that wisdom, it is known what is needed. Like, I don't have to do anything.

59:58Ryan Willms:I'm not shifting gears. Right. Like the nervous system and the whole system is just in alignment with the moment. And so whatever is the correct action or non-action is emerging. Right. And so, you know, I think that would be sort of like the healthier version of that because yeah, sometimes you like, you need, you want the warrior. Sometimes you want the King. Sometimes you need the magician. You like, sometimes you got to say something to somebody that you don't feel comfortable saying, but it's what is required in that moment. Right. And so, you know, trusting that, I think that would be like integrated, that would be more of a like integrated trusting, you're not figuring it out or shifting psychological gears.

1:00:52Ryan Willms:So that, I mean, that would be my answer, but like, I do understand how, you know, cause it's hard to get to that place. So like, I also understand like some functional tools that can help you act appropriately in different situations, like isn't a bad thing.

1:01:11Ryan Lynch:Yeah, sure. I think just to close this little segment, I know we want to keep it around about an hour. I think our thought was, you know, a nice, it could be nice for a little training run, you know, 45, 60 minutes. but I'd love to end with really the other side of this conversation, maybe even a teaser as to what could come, you know, in future episodes, but we've talked so much about, you know, the pursuit of pain and suffering as a big part of, you know, mindful endurance. I'm curious also what the pursuit of, of play and the pursuit of joy and the pursuit of pleasure looks like for you in your endurance practice.

1:01:56Ryan Willms:yeah i mean it's a good question and it's a challenging one sometimes with triathlon or running sometimes cycling has a more like pure like i just think of childhood and be like want to ride bikes you know and it's like you grab your bike and you're just like jumping in and out of ditches and like looking for any curb to jump off of it like um so i think like that can be a part of cycling and maybe trail running like brings more of that in as well. Um, but it's funny because like, I honestly love running on the treadmill. Like I'm not going anywhere. Like I don't need to like, like, yeah, it's nice to like see different places and stuff, but like I'm going in, you know, I'm not going out.

1:02:42Ryan Willms:And so I enjoy both, but the inn is like the more interesting terrain to explore for me. And I just love running. Like I love 30 minutes into the run when I'm like, Oh, I'm not even, I'm not the one running. Like my body is just running and I'm just experiencing running and whatever comes up and whatever that feels like. And maybe it's fear, Maybe it's love. Maybe it's a creative insight and impulse to make something or reach out to someone. And it's like, that to me is playful, you know, that sort of, and it's also fun to be like, man, can I do this interval? Like, I don't know, like, I can do this race.

1:03:32Ryan Willms:Can I do the race? Can I bike this hard and then run that hard? You know, it's like this funny game, you know. But ultimately, it's like there is no one to race, you know. I'm just the one experiencing this, you know. Like I think like we come to Earth to experience Earth, to experience humanity, you know. And a single 60-minute run can give you a lot of flavors of humanity. And so that is fun to me. I mean, like, what's my dream day? You know, it's like a big training session and breastwork or mushrooms and conversations about like exploring the outer reaches of consciousness, you know, and, and seeing what comes being surprised by that, you know, like, I don't know if that would sound fun to a lot of people.

1:04:30Ryan Willms:Maybe it does. but like that to me is just like the funnest stuff, you know? And then I come home from that and I'm chasing the neighborhood peacocks with my four year olds. So there's some running as well. That's like really fun and playful and, you know, uh, trying to catch peacocks.

1:04:48Ryan Lynch:Yeah, totally. I love that. I've been, uh, yeah, I've been trying to figure out throughout this episode, um, how I would, how I would then sell the idea of running to someone that like hasn't run I think there's a funny runner's paradox here where um talking about running for those that don't run makes you sound insane um because you're just pursuing pain and it's not that fun unless there's peacocks and you know like so uh why would one do it and and so I I found this little quote just to maybe maybe cap it off. Again, from Rene in his infamous book, Mount Analog, the quote goes, you cannot stay on the summit forever.

1:05:34Ryan Lynch:You have to come down again. So why bother in the first place? Just this, what is above knows what is below, but what is below does not know what is above. one climbs one sees one descends one sees no longer but one has seen there is an art of conducting oneself in the lower regions by the memory of what one saw higher up when one can no longer see one can at least still know i love that so much because i think it also works in the inverse you know one cannot stay in the pain cave forever you have to go up again yeah yeah why about in the first place and so i think irrespective of which direction it's going um there's something that it offers that allows you to see the other layers and much deeper clarity and um for me that's i think what i what i feel most grateful for when i think about what what endurance sports has offered me yeah yeah that's beautiful i really like that and

1:06:44Ryan Willms:you know it's funny like i've never tried to convince anyone to start running sometimes people are like oh yeah you probably want me to like go on runs with you i'm like i really don't care if you go for runs with me or never in your life you know but like the question of like why would i go for a run why would you go for a run it's like why would you do anything why are you doing anything in your life you know like i think for me that's what i'll leave the listeners with is like running or otherwise. Why are you doing anything? And go, you know, contemplate that, pull on that thread. Beautiful.

1:07:22All right.

1:07:23Ryan Willms:Thank you.