E692 | Debbie Wosskow OBE, Chair of the UK’s Invest in Women Task Force: Mixed Teams, Better Returns, Real Incentives

0:00Welcome back, everyone. Today, we're joined by Debbie Wasco, a rare operator who has seen the system from every angle. founder and investor, now chair of the UK's Invest in Women Task Force. This conversation is about moving past headlines and intentions and into how capital actually moves, where it gets stuck, and what changes outcomes for women building companies in Europe right now. Before we start the show, a quick note. If you're building or running a fund, you know it takes the right partners. At EVC, we only work with sponsors we truly believe should be part of your tech stack. Please do take a moment to hear about them.

0:33And if you do, reach out, mention your VC. It's the best way you can support what we do. Thank you so much. First up, Ace Alternatives. Every fund manager needs clean operations behind the scenes. From fund admin to tax and compliance, Ace handles it all across VC, PE, private debt, and real assets. They're trusted by some of the best investors in the world. And if you want peace of mind and a scale-ready back office, Ace should be part of your step. Finding deals and managing your portfolio is at the heart of running a fund. Synaptic helps you discover startups before others do. And PortfolioIQ keeps your portfolio data sharp and ready for LPs.

1:10Together, they're essential tools for modern fund managers. When it comes to legal, you need a team that truly knows venture. Hainspoon supports LPs, TP, startups and scale-ups across the full fund lifecycle. Smart managers make Hainspoon part of their stack. We have two at EUVC. Tech Barbecue. Oh my god, who doesn't love barbecue? Europe's startup scene meets the loudest friendliest family reunion ever at Tech BBQ. From Nordic founders to global VCs, this is where ideas catch fire and relationships get real. If you're building or backing in Europe, Tech BBQ is where you want to show up. And hey, if you've got a big fun announcement coming up, want to hit the headlines or just want to tell you a story about, do reach out to us because we'd love to help.

1:50And we've got some pillar partners to help you get in the right media places. They've held us land Bloomberg, CNPC, Financial Times, Forbes, and many more for the EUVC Summit. And we'd love to do the same for you.

2:24Debbie, welcome to the podcast. Hi, thank you for having me. Looking forward to chatting. Debbie, we just spoke about the fact that you've done about a million podcasts, but to those that don't know you just yet, could you just give them all an introduction to who you are and how you've come to be in such an important position as you are today? Thank you. Well, I started my first business in 1999, when I suspect a lot of your listeners were not necessarily alive. And I've been UK based for my entire career, whilst on the operator side being very global and raising capital all around the world from anyone who will have me, from angels through to syndicates through to high net worth, venture, private equity, and built three businesses to exit over this 25 year arc.

3:10and have always had a sense of purpose in what I do very much focus on the female audience with my businesses particularly Love, Home, Swap and Albright and in all of this the single point of difference for my career success is that I'm really good at asking men for money because if I wasn't good asking men for money I wouldn't have had a career and the stats around the gender in equity in fundraising across the world but particularly in the UK where I'm based I've been the stark reality of my career as an operator and so as I enter my 50s I'm 52 in a few weeks time I've spent the last couple of years as part of my portfolio having a very singular focus on changing the way that capital flows and on getting more female investors backed because a female investor is twice as likely to back a female entrepreneur as a male investor and also because I think you need to create carrots as well as stick in the life of any founder or investor and the bane of all of our existence is raising money right it's just a huge pain as a time soak you have to have the thickest rhino hide in the world to take the nose and that goes for me no matter how many times I've done it and what I want to do is to change the conversation for female entrepreneurs and mixed teams because this is a conversation that we need to have with men we can't just have it in the echo chamber of women only so a female entrepreneur delivers better returns than a male entrepreneur 35 better returns but mixed teams are a big part of the unlocker here and I want to encourage male founders and male investors to have women by their side because that's the way that we create better returns and that's what we're in the business of doing, right, as funders and as founders.

5:04Yeah. And we're going to talk about all of these parts that you're just touching now. But before we go there, let's just make sure that everyone also know, invest in women as a task force. Yeah. So I've always done politics with a small P. I'm kind of a political nerd, whilst not really ever fully wanting to be a politician. And I chaired a government review in 2015 for the David Cameron, now conservative government in the UK I think I'm very proud to be British and I'm also very very positive as a person I don't like negative conversations and I don't like a negative echo chamber and I think one of the things we're brilliant in the UK is actually opening the political conversation to entrepreneurs I don't think that happens anywhere else in the world in the way that it does here and so recognizing that there was a point of inflection with making this conversation around the gender inequity that female entrepreneurs and female investors face a political conversation and the reason for doing that is I think politicians and the political process in the UK has a convening power that brings a topic to the top of an agenda so I was appointed to co-chair something called the investing women task force and it was a political appointment by the last government the conservative government in the uk and i think the only political appointment that ported to the other side where in the uk we do have our first female chancellor in over 800 years of the institution and that does make a difference right so i co-chair the investing women task force it's industry-led and government backed and it has a singular objective which is to change the way that institutional capital flows in the UK to create more gender equity not as a D &I initiative but as a way of driving outsized returns for UK PLC it's an unashamedly British initiative I co-chair it with a fantastic woman called Hannah Bernard who did run business banking at Barclays who've been a huge supporter of the initiative and just started this week at Nationwide running their consumer banking and I think you it takes a banker and an entrepreneur to try and deliver on something like this right because it's a big initiative and I've spent a lot of my career looking at some other equally worthy important topics whether that's mentorship or networking or but let's be real no female entrepreneur in the middle of a fundraise ever said I need a bit more mentoring please right she wants money and so I am a simple person in the way that I think about how my effort can have outsized impact and leaning into co-chair the investor women task force to create the biggest funding pot in the world to back female entrepreneurs to make the uk the best place in the world to be a female powered business has been a big part of my life for the last few years debbie we have three core audiences for this podcast for sure i know we will have a bunch of women entrepreneurs listening in we will have a bunch of women investors listening in also male investors, of course, that want to help solve this and play their part.

8:13And then we will have some ecosystem players, some government people that are also trying to structurally figure out how can we do this? What can we learn from what you've done? So let's go through each of them, trying to find a bit the playbook or the most important initiatives or the most important changes that each can make. So if we start with the founder, the most important unit in all of this, we could argue, what should a woman entrepreneur do? What are the most important things that they do mindset-wise, that they do in their structure, that you see them getting wrong, that you see that maybe men are better at, or that stories that are being told that are incorrect?

8:48What do you think is the most important thing to say to women that are tuning into today? I think the biggest myth is that women don't found businesses. They do. And what the data shows is that one in five of high growth businesses in the UK, and so we class that as businesses that are capital ready you know I accept there's a universe of businesses that don't want to raise money that don't need to raise money for whom this isn't a relevant conversation but I am focused on businesses that are capital worthy that are in stages of investment readiness that can deliver returns for investors and frankly that can make women rich right that's my dog in the fight the gender pay gap begets the gender saving gap it means we just don't have enough money I think unashamedly for the female founder talk about money think about money don't be apologetic about wanting to make money I see that a lot right so I think number one is be ready number two is recognize that whilst it's one in five it's only two percent they're making it through IC so the funnel is complex that isn't I don't think because men are egregiously sexist although I've got war stories as everybody has I think it's just that an investor's job is to pattern match and we don't always look and sound like the businesses that have delivered returns in the past.

10:09Not always the case. Often women tend to find consumer businesses. They often speak to the female experience. So one of the businesses that I exec chair and I'm a significant shareholder in is called the Better Menopause. Even with my track record when pitching the business to a range of investors, one of whom should remain nameless, he was like, I love this, but isn't it a bit niche? And you're like, it's not really niche because like everyone's half the population. So, you know, we have to recognize and every female entrepreneur who's founding a business that speaks to the female experience has an example of that.

10:42Now, those aren't all the businesses that women found. One of the reasons that the stats are going back, however, is women aren't tending to found businesses in AI. We know that the bulk of significant fundraising in 2024 and five were into AI. so I think my advice for female entrepreneurs is work on your network but get clear on the ask and make sure that you are selling yourself and your story in the way that a man would you know Madeleine Albright's my hero my business Albright which I sold in 2022 was named after her and she talked a lot about wanting excellent women to have the confidence for media command and I think that that's true so I say that for female entrepreneurs also know where to look you You know, one of the issues that can hold female founders back in the UK is that we have this incredible asset, which is SEIS and EIS funded investing, which, you know, is the jewel in the crown of the British ecosystem.

11:37Female angel investors are fewer than male angel investors. They don't know about it. And even female entrepreneurs don't always know about it. And we tend to not have the same address book as men. It's harder for us to call on friends and family. So go and look at the Investing Women Task Force. It's a massive piece of work that's been done to map where female investor syndicates sit to help women to get started. I am, however, focused on the institutional phase where, you know, women are often only ever pitching to men for money. And that's point two, which leads into your ecosystem point two.

12:13What I see in the other part of the firmament is it's much harder for female VCs to raise funds. It's extremely hard for female VCs to raise a first time fund. And even when women are in funds, they're not owning enough of the economics of a fund. So the Investing Women Task Force, we set an initial target of 250 million pounds. That's because entrepreneurs set targets, set timelines. It's the only way I know how to get anything done. And that was in year one. We're now, you know, almost two years into the initiative and we've raised 635 million pounds worth of money, which was super hard. Nobody gave it to us.

12:49It's not taxpayers' money. there's a few myths around what the investing women task force do none of it was handed to us on a plate right hannah and i've had to work super hard to raise that capital and to convince people in a world where dni has been taken off the table in the us this is actually not about equity for its own sake it's about a way to drive outside returns and to make the uk really good at this and i think part of the wind beneath our wings has been that the uk is recognizing as a country it needs to back itself and we don't deploy as much of our pension fund assets into our own country as places like Australia, Canada and America do.

13:30So you have something like the Mansion House, Compact and Accord, which has now become the sterling 20, that's a good opportunity for us, right? Because we're saying if it's£350 billion plus committed to invest in private assets in the UK, can we put some of that into backing women? Can we put some of that into backing the high quality female investors and can we say to men in the room and this is very important because this is bucket three of your audience it is extremely important that the 87 pence in the pound in 2024 that went to back a business with no woman in the cap table 87 pence in the pound for male founders of businesses look around you find women to co-found businesses with a because mixed teams deliver better returns but b because actually and this is the carrot there are funds available to you if you are part of a mixed team and the same goes for male investors so that that's the thesis we think that's how you drive systemic change but let's be clear 635 million pounds was extremely hard work 15 billion of capital was deployed in the uk last year right we need to go at this rate for a decade to genuinely drive systemic change and i'm a bit tired and by the way my day job right you know but so we need other people to pick up the mantle and we need this to be multiplied because we cannot have a situation where in my entrepreneurial lifetime, which is coming up for 27 years, the stats on women getting back are getting worse, not better.

15:08So it's time to change. If we stay on the investor part for a little while, I absolutely agree on everything you've said. There are some myths, call them myths, call them whatever statements that keep being said or views that keep being held by many in the ecosystem when it comes to venture funding. One of them is that it's a deal for a problem. I don't see, like, I'm a male partner. My co-partner is male. We don't see enough women. We feel we've done everything. We still do not see, even when they look at the percentages that they take to IC and that they take to due diligence, the percentage of women founded teams or mixed gender teams are better.

15:50But the real problem lies in them in the top of funnel, having too low of a proportion. Could you comment on that? Meaning they, of course, you know, putting this in the negative framing, are saying it's not my problem. It's actually society's problem that we are not creating enough women entrepreneurs for us to invest in. I would have two responses to that. The first is the data does not support that, right? The data says that one in five converts to 2%. So it is simply not the case that there isn't anyone out there. There are women out there, but they're just not making it through investment committees.

16:29Having said that, it is the case that there are certain sectors where there are fewer female founders. And in order to drive pipeline, we need to showcase case studies of female founders building businesses who look and feel like them. And male funds need to have women as GPs. They just do because I can't really explain what it's like to spend your whole life having to ask men for money. but it's f***ing weird, right? So it is the case when I look at my businesses and I chair two startups at the moment, Better Menopause and an AI business called Fit that's launching in February. I do gravitate towards having conversations with female investors if I can, because otherwise the inequity in my life is too great, right?

17:18So I think it's that. I think that we, as men, you need to try harder, right? You need to try harder to recruit women. you need to have gender balance investment committees do you i mean you probably don't because most funds don't so we've really pushed for that and if you look at the 635 million it's broken into two components so there's a fund of funds that's the five lps in an institutional fund that will deploy fund of funds capital to back female gps then there are the partners like British Business Bank and BGF, where we've pushed really hard on them having to have gender equity and investment committee, right?

17:59That wasn't there. They didn't have the pipeline of hires. They have to make them. So I'm afraid I'm going to put the onus back on you, right? To say, look to yourselves and look around. One in five going to 2 % shows it's not working, but there are all male funds who are less likely to see female-led businesses. and I think it sits both ways right we've got to redistribute capital flow top of funnel having a fund of funds that backs more female investors and mixed teams right so you have to raise money for your fund as kind of a pain right it's difficult for anybody raising LP capital I think if you're now aware that for fund two or wherever on your life cycle there are capital pots available if you have an equitable split within the GP with women you might be more minded to do it, right, which is part of the incentive.

18:49Just double clicking. Are you saying that the absolute best and most powerful thing any firm can do to try and resolve the lack of women founded businesses in their top of funnel deal flow is not marketing initiatives, not messaging, not putting women on their website, but rather it is actually starting to hire women into their teams because this is the single-handed most important thing. 100%. All that other stuff's nice. I'm not saying don't do it, but the single biggest change that you can make as investors that isn't just signaling, but just changes the conversation in the room, the deal flow that you have, how IC works, how the fund is put together is this, hire women.

19:39Thank you. Now, going to the ecosystem level. We, as I described, we are a European VC podcast. We're trying to get everyone across the ecosystem, calling it the European ecosystem, learning from each other. If you look at what you've been successful with, with the Investing Women Task Force, and what you have been less successful with, but you would have thought would have been really meaningful, what would you say that are the most important steps to take as an ecosystem leader? And what are the most important and here ecosystem leader also equals politics and what are the important things to actually steer away from because they don't work?

20:16I think it's a great question and I work globally and I've done quite a lot of work with female investors across Europe whether that's Borski in Holland or also in Germany or unconventional ventures in the Nordics to try and help them figure out how to position and fundraise so and have faced this question a lot So I think the thing that has worked in the UK is getting it on government's agenda, not because that means that there's a magic money tree because there isn't, but I think it elevates the conversation. It creates a focus in a timeline and it creates media interest and it allows very senior rooms to be convened.

20:58so if I look at some of the big ecosystems across Europe in France and Germany and the Netherlands in Central Europe what has unlocked things in the UK has been institutional capital pension fund capital retail bank capital people like Visa Foundation who've come to the table as an LP in the fund of funds I would encourage other countries to look at whether they can elevate this either onto the political agenda, if that's appropriate, or to have some moment in time with a ticking clock where that institutional capital is convened and asked a very real question, which is, will you support this?

21:40I think the mechanism that we've ended up with, which is not as straightforward as perhaps I first imagined, and I think that's part of the advantage of being an entrepreneur, that you're used to flexing in a million different directions. I would have loved every institution to deploy capital into a central fund of funds in order that that fund of funds could be independently managed and we just back a load of women-led and mixed team funds either homegrown in the UK or which is an UK system point encouraging European and indeed international VCs to come and base themselves in the UK they need to have boots on the ground here and encourage the highest quality female founders globally, therefore, to be based in a UK.

22:25At a time when, as you are aware, there's a conversation that I don't love, which is ongoing and negative about everybody's leaving the UK, the whole world's moving to Dubai, and we're sick of paying tax on repeat. If you want to go to Dubai, go to Dubai. I'm not going to Dubai anytime soon, right? So I think that those points, which are convene the conversation, Elevate it to the highest level you possibly can. Convene the institutions and figure it out. So of the 635, we have 130 million in the first close of a fund of funds. I would like that to be more, right? I'm still shaking the tin. But we've persuaded some big partners, BBB, Morgan Stanley, Aviva, BGF, to start reporting their gender data, to start thinking about how they convene investment committees.

23:17and this is critical actually and my one piece of advice on anything is in life if you're going to do it do it properly right for something like this which is purpose for the love of unpaid sometimes you think to yourself why the hell have I started out on this sometimes I need to learn to keep my mouth shut but it's got to be real so I'm not in the business of just allowing people to write the press release for fake money and the beauty of it being a politically convened conversation where the light shines because the press writes about it all time because there are questions in the house of commons because the women inequality select committee is invest you know all of that is this it has to be real it's got to be new it's got to be real it's got to be so all of those parameters for other places in europe i would say there are lessons to be learned about how to convene new institutional capital to be more gender equitable and the the key stat in all of this is returns.

24:15Now, this is not a, it's nice to do, you should do it. And for investors who've really signed up to this and committed, they're like, thanks, this is a way for me to find untapped alpha. Debbie, before I let you go, because I do want to let you get back to your important work, but I want to ask you, we are at a very special moment where DEI and ESG has really, the tree has been rattled quite considerably. Could you just now, and we're looking at the calendar year of 2026, 14th of January, could you tell me, just reflect a bit on the moment in time we're at? Where are we really? What do you think will happen going forward?

24:54How would you recommend that people think about this moment? Felt more worried than I ever had last year about what was happening to feminism. And I don't want to get into a geopolitics conversation, But there are obvious reasons why this is a time to be alive as a woman where you feel like everything that's happened since the pandemic, which sent women back into the kitchen, in my opinion. I feel very worried. I've been publicly worried about this and not everybody agrees it's a controversial topic. But I feel worried about flexible work and work from home and hybrid work as to whether that just takes women out of the boardroom.

25:35I worry what happens if women are not visible. I worry that being at home just gives us extra burden for the house and the kids. And I speak of someone who's got a 15 and a 17 year old. So I've been worried about feminism since 2020. From a geopolitical perspective, there's stuff happening now that I never thought would happen in my lifetime. And I think being a woman in the public eye means that you're getting an unprecedented level of s***. And I feel like it's given institutions the opportunity because of the DE &I order in the US to change the way that they think about backing some of these initiatives.

26:16And because I'm always optimistic, this is the best time ever to show that actually a conversation around gender equity is a conversation around performance. That's what I'm interested in. I do my charitable work. I do the Women's Prize for Fiction. You know, I do. This is not this. This is not a charity, right? This is about providing institutions and in my dog in the fight, the UK, an opportunity to make more money. Because what motivates me is money and women making more money, right? I have through my call, we need to be economically independent. And so actually the positive spin on 2026 is I think we've got more incumbent female billionaires.

27:05We have a wealth transfer that's happening just through aging out and families to put more money in female hands. We've got more women in the UK earning more than£100 ,000 than ever. And these are plenty of reasons to be cheerful. because for the Investing Women Task Force co-chair role, I'm in the business of backing more women so that women and men can make money from backing women. And I feel very positive about the year to come. Incredible note to end on. Debbie, thank you so much for taking the time to join us on the podcast today. I think it's incredibly important work that you do. And I think everyone that tuned in today got to know a bit about how you can actually make the world a better place.

27:45Thank you so much. Thank you. Before we start the show, a quick note. If you're building or running a fund, you know it takes the right partners. At EUVC, we only work with sponsors we truly believe should be part of your tech stack. Please do take a moment to hear about them. And if you do, reach out, mention EUVC. It's the best way you can support what we do. Thank you so much. First up, Ace Alternatives. Every fund manager needs clean operations behind the scenes. From fund admin to tax and compliance, Ace handles it all across VC, PE, private debt, and real assets. They're trusted by some of the best investors in the world and if you want peace of mind and a scale ready back office Ace should be part of your step.

28:27Finding deals and managing your portfolio is at the heart of running a fund. Synaptic helps you discover startups before others do and Portfolio IQ keeps your portfolio data sharp and ready for LPs. Together they're essential tools for modern fund managers. When it comes to legal you need a team that truly knows venture. Hainspoon supports LPs, GP, startups and scale-ups across the full fund life cycle. Smart managers make Hainspoon part of their stack. We have two at EUVC. Tech BBQ. Oh my god, who doesn't love BBQ? Europe's startup scene meets the loudest, friendliest family reunion ever at Tech BBQ.

29:01From Nordic founders to global VCs, this is where ideas catch fire and relationships get real. If you're building or backing in Europe, Tech BBQ is where you want to show up. And hey, if you've got a big fun announcement coming up, want to hit the headlines or just want to tell you a story about, do reach out to us because we'd love to help. And we've got some pillar partners to help you get in the right media places. They've held us land Bloomberg, CNBC, Financial Times, Forbes and many more for the EUVC Summit. And we'd love to do the same for you.

29:32Tear down this wall. It's more than just an alliance. This is a union of values. Let's start acting.