A Solutions-Driven Approach to Leadership — with Veolia CEO Estelle Brachlianoff

0:00A CNBC original podcast. We all have to make big decisions in our lives. Decisions that define and influence our professional and personal journeys. If you reflect on them, some are good and some I'm sure you'll definitely regret. In my nearly three decades as a financial journalist, I've interviewed literally thousands of CEOs, politicians and market voices, and they all had to make decisions to get to where they are today. In this podcast, I hear about those choices as well as the moments of doubt, risk and conviction that impacted our guests' journeys and the people they lead. This is Executive Decisions with me, Steve Sedgwick.

0:43In this episode, I speak to Estelle Bracliano. So build solutions, build ideas, build teams rather than just complaining or waiting till the big schemes would be ready. Estelle is the CEO of Veolia, a global leader in energy, waste and water management. She leads more than 200 ,000 employees across 56 countries. But her ambition to lead began at home, inspired by her mother and grandmother. It's true that I come from a kind of genealogy of powerful women who break the barriers and the boundaries which were supposed to be put on them. Channeling the strength of the women who came before her, Estelle continues to seize opportunities, be curious and trust her gut.

1:25The guy has everything he takes, he'll be all right. My gut feel was telling me, not so sure. I should have trusted my gut feel on that one, which doesn't mean that gut feel is everything. But you know, there is an element of ticking boxes or rational is not always the way to make the right decision. These are Estelle Bracliano's executive decisions.

1:51Estelle it's so lovely to see you again and I've been privileged to interview you several times but I've never had the ability to have a long interview of you talking about your past as well so I'm very excited about knowing what decisions you have made in your life and where you're at now. Let me start with a question. Why aren't you an astrophysicist or an astronaut? I say that, of course, because that's what you wanted to be. Yeah, that was my dream for a very, very young age, actually. And there is still a bit in me of, you know, like fascination about all that. I still look at the stars with lots of pleasures.

2:28And why didn't I become that? Actually, it started with me being very young and opening this book that was offered with all formulas super complex about you know astrophysics Einstein and everything I couldn't make anything out of it and it's ended up into the last year of my university where I finally understood what was written in this book which I was given when I was six or seven. Astronauts I wouldn't have the physical ability lack at all that I'm certain astrophysicist I've done a bit of astrophysics in my life and research all together because I've done a bit of quantum physics as well I loved it but I'm more curious curious about people curious about discovering new things than just going deep into something maybe and the idea of spending 20 30 40 years studying the same very narrow subject with just three or four people you can discuss in the world almost, who can have really an interaction on this subject, was really what prevented me from going into this type of career.

3:38You come from an extraordinary background. I know that your mother was an engineer and she was at Air Aspatiale and at Airbus as well. She was a forerunner for women everywhere. But you also tell me your grandmother was of a similar vein as well. So just tell me a little bit about the huge influence that your mother and your grandmother have had in your career now in making your decisions. It's true that I come from a kind of genealogy of maybe powerful women who break the barriers and the boundaries which were supposed to be put on them. So there is a bit of freedom in those two. Actually, the grandmother I'm talking about is the mother of my father.

4:22And, of course, my mother. The two of them, they have the freedom, the don't impose anything on me. I'm doing exactly what I want and I really care about. For my grandmother, she was quite adventurous, if you say that in English, lady. in the 50s she would travel to Afghanistan trekking and experience and things like that. She ran a very free personal life. She had kids but she didn't stay very long with my grandfather at a time where it was not that common. She lived her life in a way in exactly the way she wanted. So nothing imposed on her. She didn't like that. And my mother was quite similar in that respect.

5:16She always said, Estelle, you do whatever you wish in life, but whatever you wish, don't have anybody imposing anything that you don't really want and don't depend on anybody, including on a man. So be autonomous, earn your living so you can be free. That was the big theme, I guess. That clearly has rubbed off on you from a very early age. They were your biggest influences? Probably, yes, in that there was something about you can do pretty much anything you want, as long as you have the will, as long as you work hard. There is the work ethics as well, which, you know, I was given by my mother in particular.

5:56And you can do whatever you want. It doesn't mean to be only professional. I mean, you know, if you want to be a mother of your kids and stay at home, that's perfectly all right. But you are the one choosing. Did your mom have to make some big sacrifices to have that incredible career ultimately at Airbus? I guess she was really the first of her kind because she studied aeronautics. She entered Airbus and she was the first woman ever in the design center of Airbus at that time. We're in the 60s, early 70s. She dared wearing trousers instead of a skirt, which was like absolutely shocking. And all other anecdotes like that, which she was telling me when I was a kid.

6:47The influence is there. You went to the Ecole Polytechnique as well and you carried on your education as well. And you moved into the workplace in, I think, 1998, working in Valois infrastructure projects as well. Did you start in your business career thinking you were going to stay in infrastructure and that kind of area? Or did you think in that stage, actually, it was a bridge to other jobs or other careers? Oh, neither. I never had any idea of what was next. and honestly each time I was given the impression that it was a clear almost a bit too linear path I walked away and said no I want to do something else.

7:27So I ended up into a nice university called Polytechnique not having any idea about what I wanted to do professionally speaking and then enter into what was a civil service for infrastructure. And I thought that's great because it makes sense. So in a way, but I discovered it whilst I was doing it. As you went along. Yes, as it went along, as opposed to an intention of any sort, if I'm honest. But there is the idea about I could have picked out the rules. So each time I'm like, I'm letting things flow and opportunities arise. and then okay what about doing that so I'm letting myself be surprised but then I'm quick in seizing the opportunities as well and never seeing it as a risk more we'll give it a go if it works great if it doesn't I'm going to do something else that's more the mindset I love that and it really tallies with what I try to tell my own children that you don't have to create a career at an early stage it will happen be curious be curious and so this show is called executive decisions but at that stage of your career it's almost executive indecision just let it go let's just try different things is that important for you that you were able to try different things and make decisions based on how you felt rather than some predetermined destiny i guess it's only it's not only about you know letting the flow go there is an amount of decide to seize the opportunity You still have a decision, but it's not a decision as a path.

9:05It's a decision as in the, oh, there is something here I'm excited about. Let's give it a go. But there has to be this excitement there. So follow your guts. And then if it doesn't work, that's not a big deal. I guess it's more this way around rather than just, you know, letting things flow as they go. The flows go. Your career started at around the same time that people got serious about greenhouse gases. They got serious about the environmental challenge. And I checked back. Kyoto and the commitments, the first real commitments, were roughly at the time when you entered the serious workplace as well.

9:47So, look, you wanted to be an astronaut or an astrophysic. And let's face it, they're quite racy careers. They're exciting careers as well. Whereas someone might say, oh, engineering, I'm not so sure. But the kind of field you went into, by coincidence, I guess, suddenly started getting really, really interesting and meaning something in the late 90s. Were you aware of that? Yes and no. I guess the key things for me were curiosity and discovering new things. The gut feel about the, I'm going to get some excitement about it. There are going to be adventure. There are going to be something moving fast.

10:23and that's what made me join Veolia in the first place. And it has to have a meaning. We're here to earn a living, of course, but, you know, we spend a lot of time in the day and, you know, to bring your little brick into something larger than you is something which is important for me. So I guess it's more the way I would phrase it. There's something I really have noticed a lot with these executive decision interviews, that it's not just the job. it is not absolutely about the money. It is absolutely not about being the CEO. It is about meaning something and leaving some form of legacy or being something in a greater good.

11:04I look at a lot of commentary from you. I've interviewed you several times as well. Do you really feel that a lot of your decisions that you've made in your career are about trying to help the greater good rather than just help Estelle Brachlianov's career? The word is not exactly easy at times. And you can complain. You can complain about politicians. You can complain about, you know, the economics. You can complain about many things. This is not my way. I'm more the, what can I do about it? You know, and from a very early stage in my career, what can I do about it? So I seize the opportunity and try to make something.

11:39So build solution, build idea, build teams, rather than just complaining or waiting till the big schemes would be ready. that's more action oriented which is my big driver from very very early on and in that respect if you you'll let the freedom with this mindset and the big framework which I think you know is exactly what Veolia is about that's why I've enjoyed so much my 21 years in this company Yeah I mean you and I are rare beasts people who well in many ways you're very rare but we've both done over two decades at the same company as well that's a conscious decision and I'm 99 % sure you would have had some fantastic offers over the years perhaps me less so but but but but in terms of why you've stayed at Veolia for 21 years now obviously you're at the top of the tree but why did you stay as you were building your career no and you're right you know in the various you know offers I was given I was not already you know like the chief exec of the company and each time I've said no to these offers it was pretty much always for the same reasons.

12:48One is I just genuinely love this company, the teams, the project, the ambition. And it was about people as well. There is a kind of, you know, very engaged series of people. And there is an element of being together into that. The second thing is a great balance between an ability to act and do and level of freedom to do and actually an ability that it can make a difference. So that's what I'm trying to keep in the organization. So a lot of the managers can feel it's kind of their own making to do whatever, you know, with the business they're in charge of. Of course, there is a series of rules and a big agenda, but it's down to them in the end.

13:43And, you know, this level of ability to act yourself and make a difference yourself was always what made me stay in Veolia. Look, there's a lot of executives at different levels watching this. And they're working at those companies. They're in this island. They've got their KPIs and they don't have that autonomy. Of course, don't understand me. You have lots of KPIs in Veolia. But the idea is this is yours. Those are the rules. Within those rules and within the strategy, you make it your own. Was that something that you inherited from others and then you've tweaked into your own style? I think it's very much embedded into the organization from a very, very, you know.

14:20It sounds like a new idea rather than something that's been around for 20 years. No, and I guess, you know, this is always to strike the right balance. It's decentralized as well as steered. Of course, the two have to go, you know, you have to work on the two legs. We're a listed company. Of course, you know, we have a lot of, you know, constraints. which go with that and opportunities as well which goes with that but to ensure that at the I guess granular level every single manager feels like you know what the rules are clear the ambition is clear now it's on me I think this is important and it's more a daily fight to keep it this way against you know all type of over ruling things and and dispersing decision in too many different places.

15:15If you become a CEO, you love making decisions. There is no doubt about it. You like being the one to make those bold and brave and big decisions at the end of the day. But what's the style before you make that decision? Do you listen to everyone and say, I will make this decision now? Or actually, how do you get to those big decisions as well? What's your style? What are your colleagues going to tell me about Estelle's style and how she makes decisions? So a few things. As long as you're not trying to make only good decisions, I think it's not that difficult to make decisions at all. I started my first job actually was building highways in the outskirts of Paris.

15:55The idea is to move fast and to get the most of your decision being the right one. but to accept that at times there will be a wrong decision but you have to correct them quickly. I think as long as you have this as opposed to be paralyzed by I have to have all the analysis of everything in mind before I move on and maybe this has shaped the way I decide I must say. So the idea is again to get most of them right but as well to realize that you know what of course you make wrong decisions but you have to correct them as well. So in terms of how do I make decisions, probably it starts with vision, really, and gut feel.

16:41So it starts, I think, with me. And then I'm trying to test as in the, okay, how does it bring? What does it bring to life when I tell you this? And then you can, okay, tweak a little bit, correct a little bit, or confirm. and at times console, but I guess it starts with yourself at one point. And I wanted to ask you about that because my managers over the years, my colleagues are watching, so my managers over the years said, feedback, Stephen, you need to be better at taking feedback. And when there's something that perhaps you don't like, perhaps you need to express it in a different way. So when I make mistakes, I think I'm better now, but I haven't always been brilliant at taking the feedback.

17:31I've made mistakes. What about you when you make mistakes? Can you think of any of the big mistakes, the big executive decisions you've got wrong over the years? Can you think of anything in particular? Yes, I could think of one and I could mention it. In terms of feedback, that's interesting. I generally think I'm open to, okay, Estelle, you've done this wrong. I don't feel like we're heading in the right direction there. the question is not if you are ready only to accept to be hearing that and to take it in on board but if people know that you're ready to accept so there at times there is a little bit of people would think i wouldn't be ready to accept this type of criticism where i'm genuinely i'm genuinely i'm so people who know me better know that i'm it's quite the opposite i love debating i love the i've seen that your linkedin post you want to debate with everybody not so sure about that what do you make of it and the what about this okay right let's have a look but people would know me a little bit less yeah at times wouldn't dare and they should for instance a bad decision i made i won't put names into it was to appoint somebody who was ticking almost all the boxes of the job i appointed him to do but didn't have the fire in the belly and And my brain overcame in a way my guts on that one.

18:53I said, okay, but the guy has everything he takes, he'll be all right. My gut feel was telling me, not so sure. I should have trusted my gut feel on that one, which doesn't mean that gut feel is everything. But, you know, there is an element of ticking boxes or rational is not always the way to make the right decisions. Is the personnel side of things up there with the hardest parts of doing your job, the fact that so many people are parts of the organization and getting them all to move in the right direction with that fire in their belly. Is the personnel side where the hardest decisions are sometimes?

19:32That's a good point. I guess, you know, it's being the leader of such a large organization, we have 220 ,000 employees across the globe and 80 % of them are blue-collar workers. My role is to get the direction clear for everybody. So clarity, to set the rules clearly, and hopefully to inspire them to move and to have the fire in the belly or to reignite the fire in the belly. So that's the role. But I think my role is as well to reduce uncertainty, to be able to trust your boss, to genuinely doing the right thing for the company and for the ensemble of the group, not only, you know, for just a few, but for everybody in the group is something which is of paramount importance for me, that they can trust we are heading in the right direction.

20:27Back to a question earlier on, you said, you know, am I just, you know, analyzing everything to make decisions or listening to everybody? A good example of what I said was one of the first decision, bold one, I made as a chief exec was to launch the Veolia Cares program, which is a safety net, social safety net for everybody across the globe, whatever the legislation. So when you're an employee of Veolia, you at least have the right for X weeks of maternity leaves, paternity leaves, or health insurance. and so on and so forth when they were volunteering. And it made a huge difference for even, say, in the US, for our employees where they don't have all that by the law.

21:09Did I ask anyone? No, I thought it was the right thing to do. That was starting in my gut. I had the ability to do it. So instead of complaining that the word is in difficult work, can I do something about it? Yes. So let's do it. That was exactly the authority in my mindset. And it creates a reason for people to want to go to work at Veolia rather than somewhere else. I think what they can see is some consistency from the top down as well. You know, I'm not perfect at all, but I truly believe in what I do, including with the mistakes I make, and I hope they can feel that. But you want in Veolia Cares to make your employees' lives as flexible as possible with their private lives as well, their family lives as well.

21:56And I applaud that. But is there an element of you that says and does this for your employees, but not for yourself? And you work too hard maybe as well. The only reason I ask this is because I've got a couple of quotes and I think Antoine Freireau is one of them as well. And she was, this is during the Suez takeover as well. She was a formidable adversary and a steely operator, determination in discussions. That goes without saying. Worked around the clock. I work very hard. You work too hard around the clock rather than, because for your employees, you want them to have a balance. But for you?

22:30Because it's a big decision you have to make every day. No, that's very true. Yes, I work hard. So, for instance, I travel a lot. And each time it's the same kind of, I guess, paradox, which is it takes a toll on you. You're tired. You're on planes and so on and so forth. But at the same time, it gives some energy back to me, genuinely. I take energy from meeting people, from going to site, to meeting customers and stakeholders, really. I take ideas. So the curiosity in me is fueled back if you want. Can I jump in? I get the energy when I talk to people. I talk for a living. My team knows this.

23:12I talk too much for a living. But I love engaging with people. I hated COVID. I was on Zoom calls with people. I couldn't look at their eyes and just talk to them. So you draw that energy from meeting people. Totally. To people and interaction and be surprised and discovering new things. That's absolutely true. That's why I said, you know, I wouldn't be a natural physicist exactly for that reason. That's exactly what I tried to explain earlier on. So that's right. And in terms of the way I manage my time, it's fair to say that I have only times for two things or two and a half things, Veolia and my close family.

23:50Not much else. And the other half will be a bit of reading, a bit going to theatres and swimming. Apart from that, not much, I'm afraid. Well, I mean, I know you're very active. In fact, because of your activity, once I saw you very injured, I think we were in the Middle East as well. But that's a decision as well, isn't it? How you balance your life. And it's one I juggle with. And I'm pretty sure that both of us put our families first as well. And our careers are important to us, but they're after. That is a very difficult decision. dare I say it, for a woman, for a CEO who's so busy as well, and to be an active and brilliant mother and partner as well.

24:28It's tough. I don't know if I'm a brilliant mother or partner. I hope I'm not too bad, but I think I care about it. And I know your daughter has just followed in the footsteps of her mother, her grandmother and her great-grandmother as well. No, she will do much better than I do. You know, she will follow her own path. And that's exactly the only thing I hope for her. But that's just stunningly successful. I hope I'm not divulging anything here but your your daughter has done incredibly well and has got herself into a great university as well that's just so exciting it feels like you're doing a good job there as well as a good job at work uh i guess um you know like when you have when you're a mother and i'm pretty certain it's the same when you are father by the way would you ask the same question to a man you know i'm teasing you yeah that's a good question that's a that's an important one but uh joking apart um you know like of course i work hard i don't see them as often as i as i would like to but when i'm back home uh i'm i think you know um expressing with all my enthusiasm about what i do at veolia the fact that it could be great fulfillment to to be working uh that you can make a difference.

25:38And so in a way, that's not a, I'm sacrificing you, saying you to do that. I just enjoy it. And that's what I felt from the start. Can I ask you a bit about my question? Are you frustrated when me as a man, as an interviewer, asks you as a woman, as a CEO about balancing life? When you hope that I ask the same question to a man, but you think I'm asking it because you're a woman? I'm not frustrated because I'm used to it. Do you think it's lazy sexism, that kind of question? No, I don't think it was a sexist question. But I think, you know, this is a question you may want to ask in the next interview.

26:13You ask a male CEO. Really? I genuinely think that. And I think it will free the male CEO in a way so that, you know, progressively you accept the fact that the balance with your family is a question for everyone, male or female. It's a service I'm trying to give back to my male colleagues. and we all gratefully accept it. But it is a question I've asked a lot of them because I think, you know, there is no doubt about it from a lot of the men I've known over the years as well. They work, work, work. They don't see enough of their family. And I think they get the balance wrong, actually. I really do.

26:50I think so many, and I can't say that I've seen that so much with the female guests I've interviewed. I don't know.

27:01tell me about Veolia now and I talked about your career as an engineer and infrastructure and water and waste but the great ecological transition as well are you proud of what's going on at Veolia and in the world now or are you concerned that it's not moving quickly enough I'm proud about Veolia. I'm very hopeful about what the population across the globe, you know, is asking for. I'm a little bit less hopeful about the political sphere so far. But we'll see how it goes in the next few years. So if I elaborate on that, you know, there is a big environmental backlash everywhere in the world, as in the political sphere.

27:48You know, like nobody talks anymore really about it. Lots of reasons for that. But when you ask real people or real industrial customers or real city mayors, they are very often very concrete and absolutely key to have us discussing about how to protect the health, how to ensure security of supply chain, how to ensure that there will be security of supply of water, even in case of drought. and all that is offering environmental security. So I think, you know, the trend, the megatrends are still very powerful for a business like Veolia's to grow. But it's not driven by political agendas. It's driven by, you know, the bottom up, if you want, of the needs of the populations.

28:39And environmental security is something very powerful, in my opinion. But does it worry you that these big decisions are not being made or being made along political lines rather than the ecological and environmental. And dare I say it, the business sense of actually being greener. There is a business sense behind it. It isn't just about doing the right thing. No, you're exactly right. You know, Veolia is not an NGO. Veolia is a business, of course, a listed company, which happens to have solution for environmental services to ensure that our customers are not only greener, but they secure their supply chain, their health and so on and so forth.

29:16So in a way, I'm not talking about, you know, green agenda here. I'm talking about very concrete needs everywhere in the world, which happens to go alongside decarbonization, depollution and regeneration of our souls, but as a solution to real problems we face today. The idea is not to save the planet. The planet will survive. The question is the human being on it, the industries, how do we ensure that we still have prosperity on this planet? It's not the planet itself we're here to save. So again, securing supply chain, securing the trees, securing the jobs associated with it, securing the health of people living in it.

29:55That's exactly what it's saying. And I think, you know, if you put this human being at the center, it's a completely different story from it will be a very theoretical, something abstract, which looks very far away from home. No, we're talking about communities and every single country. But it feels abstract to so many people you speak to in the street because they can't necessarily see in their daily lives the problems that are going on in the environment. And yet, when I speak to commissioners at the European Commission, I speak to Enrico Letta, I speak to others. The plan is great, but we're not just enacting the plan because it's fallen down the pecking order.