Extended Interview: USTR Jamieson Greer

0:00Margaret Brennan:Hi, this is Margaret Brennan, moderator of Face the Nation and Chief Foreign Affairs Correspondent at CBS News. Last week, I spoke with U.S. Trade Representative Jamieson Greer. Here's our conversation. And we're joined now by United States Trade Representative Jamieson Greer. Ambassador, good to have you here. Great to be here. Thank you. So the president signed this executive order on Thursday, raises tariff rates on about 70 countries. Should we expect those to be negotiated down in the coming days? I don't think they will be in the coming days. I think a lot of these, well, I know a lot of these are set rates pursuant to deals.

0:35Some of these deals are announced, some are not. Others depend on the level of the trade deficit or surplus we may have with the country. So these tariff rates are pretty much set. I expect, I do have my phone blowing up. There are trade ministers who want to talk more and see how they can work in a different way with the United States. But I think that we're seeing truly the contours of the president's tariff plan right now with these rates.

1:00Margaret Brennan:I was reading some interviews you had given, and you said at some point the president's view is maybe a tariff is better than a deal. Are you saying there are countries that just they have no shot of avoiding a tariff? Well, I would say that, in fact, most countries in the world, they just have a tariff assigned to them, right? Whether it's— It'll be the 10 percent or 15 percent. 10 or 15 or the higher level tariff. because, again, when the president is looking at this, he looks at potential deals, and we bring him potential concessions from countries and the things they might want to do, and he compares that to the potential tariff that might be applied to try to get that deficit down.

1:38And then talking to his advisors, he makes a call on this. And, you know, sometimes a country will come back and make additional concessions that make it more appropriate. He's trying to get at the deficit. He's trying to reshore manufacturing. And so those are the factors he's looking at when he's determining whether he's just going to have a tariff or he'll take a deal.

1:56Margaret Brennan:Trying to reshore manufacturing, bring manufacturing jobs back to America. But we just saw in this unemployment data that while the level's pretty low overall, it's pretty steady and good. Manufacturing in particular, we saw it contract for the fifth straight month in July. Factory employment dropped to lowest levels in five years. What does that data indicate to you about the impact of your tariffs? Yeah, I saw that. And my own view is that I think a lot of companies were waiting to see if the tax bill was going to come through with the expensing for capital goods and things like that. And so I think now a lot of that data comes pre one big, beautiful bill.

2:35Now that we have one big, beautiful bill and we have a better sense of where the taxes are going, I think we're going to see a much we're going to see more investment. All the all the commitments on investment we've seen countries making that's going to come through. And like you said, it's a relatively small number. So I don't read tariff policy into that number. I think that is kind of pre-bill policy.

2:55Margaret Brennan:So you believe the executives are making strategic decisions with hiring. But the president just announced that the head of labor statistics is being fired because of the weak jobs report claiming the data was faked. Well, I think, you know, and I saw what the president did. And he also talked about just the record from BLS, you know, last year. Labor Statistics Bureau. That's right. Yeah, exactly. You know, even last year during the campaign, there were enormous swings in the jobs numbers. And so it sounds to me like the president has real concerns, you know, not just based on today's, but everything we saw last year.

3:31You want to be able to have somewhat reliable numbers. There are always revisions, but sometimes you see these revisions go in really extreme ways. And it's, you know, the president is the president. He can choose who works in the executive branch.

3:42Margaret Brennan:But you were just saying you weren't really doubting the data. No, I wasn't. You asked me what I thought about the data and was it reflected in the tariff policy? The answer is no. I mean, my view is to the extent that there's some kind of information about manufacturing jobs. I think that we're going to see a big increase in manufacturing jobs now that we have the one big, beautiful bill passed, now that we have the expensing going in. And I think that our manufacturers know that they have a clear and certain path forward on that now. Are you confident, though, because you have to deal in legal terms, in details, with facts and data when you are negotiating a legal agreement?

4:18Margaret Brennan:Do you trust that if you bring hard data to the president, he takes your counsel, even if it's an inconvenient fact? Always, yes. I mean, I've spent many hours with the president almost every day. And that's what we're talking about is data. And I'm on the trade side, of course. And we're looking at import figures, export figures, investment levels, et cetera. And that's how we're making this decision. So I'm very comfortable with that. So you've seen that Apple estimates for the full year tariffs are going to cost them more than a billion dollars for the automakers, GM, Stellantis, Ford. They all came out and said they are going to take a hit from this.

4:53Well, so that's exactly the issue, right? We have over decades. We've had these large manufacturers, advanced manufacturing that have gone overseas. They've gone to other countries. They've taken advantage of unfair trading practices and the fact that the U.S. has had low tariffs while other countries haven't. And they've taken advantage of that. That's what businesses do. We're all capitalists. And so if now they have to pay a tariff or build here, the president is creating incentives to bring them back here. That's why GM's announced investments here in the United States. And that's why we have all these companies and countries announcing investment in the U.S.

5:24because the tariffs create the incentive to do so.

5:26Margaret Brennan:But reductions in profits come at a cost, right? And as CEOs are making decisions, how long do you expect this pain to last for corporate America? Well, you know, again, when we look at, you know, when we look at the numbers and the data, we're seeing predictions of more investment here. That's what we want. The president isn't doing this so much for the companies. He's doing it for American workers who have seen their jobs offshore to Mexico, to Vietnam, to China. So when we hear companies having to make hard choices about supply chain changes, we have to do that. I mean, the status quo where we keep making things overseas because we can do it a little bit cheaper in the short run.

6:00that is not preferable to having that investment and employment here in the United States.

6:05Margaret Brennan:But we haven't seen that reshoring happen. Well, we have announced AstraZeneca announced they're gonna have a$50 billion investment in pharmaceuticals. GM has announced$5 billion. Hyundai Steel has said they're gonna do a$21 billion investment in Louisiana. So this is actually happening. These are things from the company saying it, right? And they have to say it and they have, you know, earnings reports and they have filings. They can't just make this stuff up. This is real investment that we're seeing. Let me ask you about Canada, which is our second largest trading partner. The president increased tariffs to 35%.

6:38Margaret Brennan:It applies, though, to just about 10 % of what Canada sells here. Why bother to do this now in the middle of negotiations? So I would say, first of all, Canada is subject to 50 % tariffs on steel and aluminum, 25 % tariffs on autos, and again, the 35 % tariff on goods that don't follow the rules of USMCA. And, you know, early on, the president imposed a 25 percent tariff on Canada. And that was really about fentanyl and border issues. Right. It's it's it's a separate regime from the reciprocal tariff. And what did Canada do in response? You know, they talked about helping at the border. And I'm not I'm not a drug czar or anything.

7:17But what I do know as the trade guy is that Canada retaliated. The only other country in the world who retaliated on tariffs was the Chinese. And so if the president's going to take an action and the Canadians retaliate, The United States needs to maintain the integrity of our action, the effectiveness that we have to go up to.

7:34Margaret Brennan:You're talking about the things that the former prime minister, Trudeau, put in place. And are still in place. They're still in place. But the current prime minister has held off largely on retaliation here. That's the guy you're negotiating with and his team. So what's the strategy here? And aren't you worried that this will hurt the broader free trade deal if you truly do want to renegotiate it next year? Well, the president's view with every country, whether it's Canada or Mexico, and regardless of the kind of trade agreement we have in place, is that the net result of the trading system, whether it's our WTO agreements or our existing trade agreements, the net result has been that a lot of the manufacturing has gone overseas.

8:16And when that's the net result, you can't continue with that system. So, you know, I'm not concerned that it's going to complicate things with Canada. Our view is the president is trying to fix the terms of trade with Canada. And if there's a way to a deal, we'll find it. And if it's not, we'll have the tariff levels that we have.

8:32Margaret Brennan:So I hear you drawing distinctions when you say I'm the trade guy. I'm not the drug czar. I'm the trade guy. I'm not handling these other things. But the president is kind of blending all these things together because he cited fentanyl once again when it came to the policy with Canada. He also said on social media, Canada's decision to back statehood for Palestine is going to make it hard for us to make a trade deal. How does that have anything to do with financial and trade agreements? So first of all, the president of the United States has his foreign affairs power where he can manage relations under the Constitution with foreign countries.

9:10Second of all, Congress delegated to the president the ability to take economic action in response to national emergencies in the International Economic Emergency Powers Act. And for example, the Treasury Department, they have a number of sanctions where they can actually cut off a country's trade with the United States, prohibit goods, cut them off from our financial system for geopolitical reasons. So the fact that they can do that, almost certainly the president can do something that's not as expansive and just put a fee on those goods, which is a tariff.

9:41Margaret Brennan:But can and should are different things, right? And I'm asking you this because— But listen, if you're going to sanction somebody and essentially prohibit trade, you almost certainly can do something that's softer, which is to allow the trade and just put a tariff on it. So let me ask you about Brazil, because the U.S. has a trade surplus with Brazil. That means we sell them more than we buy from them. So it doesn't seem to be consistent here when you have the president put 50 percent tariffs on Brazil, one of the highest of any countries. And at the same time, the president is bringing up things that have nothing to do with trade when he's justifying them.

10:19Margaret Brennan:He sent a letter to the current government complaining about the prosecution of his ally, Bolsonaro, who allegedly staged a coup when he lost the last election. The president called it a witch hunt. This seems politically motivated and not about trade. Well, two things. First of all, there's a 10 percent tariff on Brazil because we have a surplus with them. That's the reciprocal tariff. And then there's a 40 percent tariff that the president has chosen to do under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, like we would do any sanction where we see geopolitical issues. The president has seen in Brazil, like he's seen in other countries, a misuse of law, a misuse of democracy, what one might call lawfare.

11:00it is normal to use these tools for geopolitical issues. I mean, sanctions, we've been using them for years with all kinds of countries.

11:07Margaret Brennan:You view tariffs and sanctions as the same? They're just different in degree. I mean, tariffs are actually lighter than a sanction. A sanction, you're cutting off a country from your financial system. You're prohibiting trade with them. A tariff, you're allowing trade. You're just putting a fee on it. It's a lesser step in sanctions. But now you have moved far away from dealing with the deficit. Now, you are talking about politically motivated trade actions here. I mean, the president sent a letter to President Lula saying the tariffs are due in part to Brazil's insidious attacks on free elections.

11:40Margaret Brennan:He also at the same time sanctioned the Supreme Court justice overseeing Bolsonaro's trial. Why are you trying to influence a criminal trial of an ally of President Trump? So the president of the United States historically, whether it's a Democrat or a Republican, they have used IEPA to impose sanctions for all kinds of geopolitical reasons in all kinds of countries. Sometimes it's countrywide. Sometimes it's specific to certain individuals and often foreign leaders and foreign officials. So this is not this is not way outside the market. If anything, the president could have gone farther in the type of sanction that was used.

12:19Instead, he just used a tariff instead of cutting them off from the financial system altogether.

12:24Margaret Brennan:So you were fully on board with it, it sounds like. With the president of the United States, my boss, of course I am. But with intervening in criminal trials? When the president sees lawfare going on, he's going to impose a sanction under IEPA that's been delegated by Congress. That's his job as the president. He's elected to assess the foreign affairs situation in the United States and take appropriate action. There's just no question that it's both from a legal perspective, it's completely permissible. And from the policy perspective, that's what he's elected to do. When it comes to trade, the big deal that is pending out there is how is the president going to deal with China?

13:01Margaret Brennan:There's an August 12th deadline. And if that deadline is not met, you have said tariff levels could snap back to above 80 percent. Is that deadline going to slide? So that's what's under discussion right now. I would say that our conversations with the Chinese have been very positive. We have discussions at the staff level, at my level. President Xi and President Trump have had conversations. They said that it's sliding. The Chinese said it's sliding. That's something we're working toward. That's what we talked about. So you're not there yet. And so they want to do that. We're working on some technical issues, and we're talking to the president about it.

13:37I think it's going in a positive direction. I'm not going to get ahead of the president. But, you know, I don't think anyone wants to see those tariffs snap back to 84 percent.

13:46Margaret Brennan:Did you get any commitments in those two days of talks in Stockholm? So, yes, we did. Yes. We talked about and I won't go into detail because they're, you know, confidential conversations between two governments. But they really focused on rare earth magnets and minerals. You've probably heard some about that, that China has put a global control on the world. And so for the United States, we're focused on making sure that the flow of magnets from China to the United States and the adjacent supply chain can flow as freely as it did before the control. And I'd say we're about halfway there. Ambassador Greer, thank you for your time today.

14:24Thank you so much.