Stephen Jones

0:08Hi, come in.

0:15Welcome to Fashion Neurosis, Stephen Jones. Hello Bella, my darling. How are you? I'm very happy to see you here and our long friendship being cemented by me in the chair and you on the couch can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes it's quite a long story i well first of all i thought well what unites us because fashion is really about communication and i thought well vivian unites us and i thought well if I'm going to be lying flat on my back and I'm wearing a hat, I have to have something which is a little bit soft. I can't have something with the brim.

1:04So I thought, well, maybe the Vivian tweed crown or the Vivian crown could be suitable. So that's what I'm wearing today. And it's not the tweed version, but one which is made from woolens and lame and different fabrics. and then I'm wearing an MA1 jacket which was given to me by Carl Sotsani from Di Giorsocomo a few years ago and then underneath I'm wearing a t-shirt from Vivian which I bought I think in about 1977 1978 it's a seditionary as well and then my original bondage trousers which which amazingly enough I can still get into. Gosh. And socks from Pantharella, which were a special edition by Sanderson that I thought looked quite wonderfully Baroque.

2:08But when I put them on, my husband, Craig, said to me, it looked like his mother's sofa, which wasn't exactly the effect that I wanted to have. and a pair of shoes from a company called Milk Boy in Japan, which was, Milk was actually a company which was started between Hitomi Okawa and Reikawa Kubo before she started Comme des Garcons, and it was a joint company financed by Hitomi's mother, but then they went their separate ways, and the shoes from Milk Boy, I mean, it's like a young skater's label for boys. And for girls, she really invented the kawaii, very, very sweet Japanese look, which was, you know, in a way traditional, but she did the modern version of it.

2:59So that's what I'm wearing. Oh, it's so good, especially to see the crown, because I remember, though, some of the fabrics, because when Vivian was thinking about it, when I was working for her and she was working on the tweed collection, she sent me off to Berwick Street Market to bring back jewel-like velvets to be in the crown. And I remember the velvet that acts as the ermine on the one you're wearing and the ones with glitter and getting all these really kitsch cuttings of velvet from Borovic. I don't even know if that's still there. I doubt it. Oh, Porific's is very much still there. Is it?

3:48It's smaller than it used to be. But absolutely, it's there selling lots of different sorts of fabrics, but still supplying theatres and brides and Central St. Martin students. Wow, it was such a great shop. and they had hundreds of different things, but they seemed to specialize in this, you know, these crazy things that you wouldn't ever be seen dead in but actually were unbelievably useful and, you know. They used to do a fabulous range of polka dot nylon and black polka dots on fluorescent pink, fluorescent green, fluorescent blue, everything. It was extraordinary. and you know that they were going to be at the end of the pier next season in some sort of very, very British play or something.

4:42Camparama. But it was through Vivian, because I have a memory, which we have spoken about it, but I'm not quite sure if you do remember, but you phoned me up one day and said that Vivian was making some caps and did I know where you could get the peaks from? And I recommended a company up north called Bracia, who still exists, and that I think was the first time we spoke to each other. Yeah, because it was when Vivian was set up in Greenland Street in Camden, and Stephen Linnard, I think, was downstairs, and Trevor who made the shoes for Vivian, the rocking horse shoes. So there was a little kind of, it was such a dump, the place, but it was a hive of creative activity.

5:43What date was this then? It would have been 80, I think I worked either 85 or maybe 86, 86 to 89 I was there. Yeah, because I had been living with Princess Julia and Geoffrey Hinton just down the road from you. But actually at that point I'd moved further up the road and I was living in Shulk Farm, but more within walking distance. I think I remember those caps because were they like little riding hats? or was that later? I have a little writing cap or the schoolboy caps too. Oh, yes, yeah, yeah. Gosh. It was quite funny because just before Christmas I was installing an exhibition at the National Gallery of Victoria in Melbourne, which was the Westwood Kawakubo exhibition, and installing those hats on heads.

6:45And it is extraordinary how, even though it was a long time ago, it just seems so relevant.

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8:16And you're the most successful milliner in the world, and you've worked with the biggest designers in existence, including five different creative directors at Dior, from John Galliano to Jonathan Anderson, and you've been awarded an OBE. And you said your family hated the idea of you going into hat making. Why was that? well I'm sure well either they wanted to meet again to the family company which was a rollage business in Liverpool which was not exactly me but I mean I look back it sounds very arrogant of me to say so I was very lucky to be given that opportunity but I'm sure my father wanted me to become a an accountant or you know something um more straight-laced as opposed to going to art school like my elder sister who had flunked out after the first year so um i i i just didn't think they thought it was a proper job and um funny enough i think they felt that way all their lives apart from the fact that at the very end of my father's life um he hadn't said anything for a long time, I decided to sort of have a conversation with him.

9:35But I had to take up both parts, both vocal parts. And I said, you know, I'm sorry, I didn't become an accountant or a doctor or whatever. I haven't got 2.5 children. And suddenly, he hadn't spoken for ages, said in a very, very quiet voice said, well, you had to do the thing which was right for you. And he died very shortly afterwards. But for so many years, thinking that he was, you know, non-supportive, that's the polite version, by the way, I realized he was really cool about it. And it's amazing that I could get that sort of happiness and contentment which has followed me since. How wonderful that's such a how incredible to have that moment also that you you made the effort to have some kind of exchange even though you were expecting him literally not to be able to speak yeah I don't know it just felt like it's now or never yeah and sort of get on with it because your mother took you to art galleries and I wondered what the first painting you were drawn to with a good hat in it and I I mean I can't I was so young I don't know it's probably actually not the art gallery but the laughing cavalier on the top of a biscuit tin or something like that.

11:10I don't, I can't remember, but I think if you're a child and you're going to an art gallery, it's not only the paintings that you're looking at, it's the whole experience. I mean, just marble columns, the grandeur of it, gilt frames, and then, you know, the Blue Boy or the Gainsborough or whatever within it. And I do remember her explaining to me, this is the Hogarth line. And not so much fashion, but what everything represented. And I don't know how she learned that or she was just imagining it. My parents had grown up during the war, so they had to be ruthlessly practical um a very different life but i mean for example i remember coming down to the Courtauld Institute not when i was five years old i was probably 10 or something and yes they're all the wonderful paintings but i remember there was the thickest beige carpet i'd ever seen and it was the most velvety wonderful texture and so of course sound was incredibly muffled and it just felt like you were in the inside of an oyster or something.

12:33Oh, that's so good. I love the things that stay in one's memory that are completely, but then they sort of generate the memory of the art as well, even though the thing that is so enticing is the carpet. And when I was thinking about asking you what was the first hat you'd seen in a painting, and I had a poster, a Toulouse-Lautrec poster on my ball of Larry Steed with the dark blue, he's wearing the dark blue trilby and the red scarf. and I realized the whole kind of atmosphere of how he was dressed and what the hat did was really important somehow. Oh, yes, it completely underlines your intent.

13:29It's funny, there is, if you wear a hat, there is no escape somehow. It's so true. Even though the hat can be an escape. I remember real hat wearers, both Anna Piaggi and Isabella Blow, talking to me about the power of a hat and how they could relax underneath it, and the hat did the communication for them. Right, yeah. So it wasn't only a defense, it was this extraordinary magical tool. It's so interesting, the thing of self-consciousness, how contraintuitive it can be. And that thing of almost going into the eye of the storm is where you feel safe and because something else is doing the work, getting the attention for you.

14:26But you don't, just because you're shy doesn't mean you want to be anonymous. No. Yeah. And you have to do what you have to do. You have to live your life. And a hat is this shield and maybe a sword as well. Yeah. Oh, that's so good. Well, I think people, I mean, fashion, yes, is a communication. It's a tool. It's a tool of how to be. We're all born naked and basically the same underneath it. And that was the thing that my mother taught me, what a high heel, you know, why are the men wearing high heels to make themselves look taller and more important in a classical painting. Yeah. God, it's such a good bit of information, actually.

15:25You have exquisite manners. And I read that when you first met the DJ Jeremy Healy, his name for you was Lady Penelope. because everyone thought you were posh. And she had a huge influence on me, Lady Penelope. And I wondered if she had one on you. Lady Penelope, well, it's so funny you should have said that. Yes, I mean, during sort of punk times and your romantic times, a few people did call me Lady Penelope. I don't know if Sylvia Anderson, who voiced her, would have approved. But yes, when I was growing up, I loved Thunderbirds, all those puppet shows. And I think if anybody would have asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up, it was probably a puppet.

16:15I loved, I don't know, it was, I think the reality of life, even though in the Northwest on the rural peninsula, looking out at the storms coming in from the sea was one thing. And I guess it wasn't too bad, but the fantasy world of television and a puppet show was wonderful. But I mean, I love television. It was this magical box where all this stuff came from. And it just seemed to be so much more interesting than... church or anything my parents said. Do you remember a piece of clothing that you became obsessed with as a child? I don't know. As a child, I'm not really sure. I mean, because I wore school uniform when I was at prep school and school uniform when I was at boarding school.

17:14I suppose I wasn't obsessed with our school boat or anything like that. I was obsessed with, I guess, I mean, music became my obsession. And I remember buying the Roxy Music albums in 1972 when they came out. And I was completely disowned by all my friends who thought it was girls music. Really? Oh, yeah. Then it was very uncool because I mean, a few of my friends sort of then took on board David Bowie and Rocksy Music. But a boys boarding school in Liverpool did not really entertain eyeliner. And they were all into, I don't know, heavy rock. and a mandalier, they weren't interested in that. I don't know, thought it was a threat or thought it was a joke or something.

18:16So not that I wanted to, or I thought possibly I could dress like Brian Ferry or Andy Mackay, but I was obsessed by their clothes. And I remember buying a pair of loons, for those of you who are under 200 years old, a pair of loons. Loons were very flat trousers. And the best place to buy them was out of the back of either Melody Maker or New Musical Express. And there were little boxes. And you could already, your waist size, which in those days was probably about 26 inches or something ridiculous. and I remember buying my pair of loons and I bought with my pocket money and they were aubergine oh my gosh and I was so in love with them I can't tell you and then I bought a pair I did an exchange and I can't exactly remember how I had them with a massive pair of platforms and um I thought I was the bee's knees yeah the back pages of melody maker were great for ordering i mean i we never even had any pocket i didn't i just never seemed to have anything but i did manage to buy a scoop neck t-shirt with mirrors embroidered all over cool from one of those back pages and spent a lot of time looking at those adverts with little illustrations of flared trousers and stuff Mm, yes.

19:50I wish I could remember the name of the company that made them. Oh, they were so good. It did dress a generation. Mm, mm, totally. Because I think when you went to clothing shops then, there was very much gents outfitters, or there was a department store, or there was especially a shop where you got school uniform from. But, and I guess there was the very beginnings of places like Miss Selfridge, or Topshop. Chelsea Girl. Chelsea Girl, yeah. Yeah. But for men's clothes, there really wasn't anywhere. Anyway, I think music was almost more important than fashion, but the two were really closely associated.

20:38Who were you listening to when you were 15? I discovered Bob Marley that was a huge thing for me. And the words, I felt that they described my stance in life. You know, get up, stand up. I just thought, yes. I remember carving that into my desk at school. But then my mother had good records. She had Nina Simone and Leonard Cohen. But my first own music was really David Bowie, The Stones, and then Bob Marley. And I went to see him in concert even. I managed to get to see him. And that was a real game changer. Wow. I went to see David Bowie in concert at Earl's Court, which was amazing. Funny you mentioned about Nina Simone there, because I remember during New Romantic times, listening, which, I mean, literally, this must be 1980, and hearing a Nina Simone record on the radio.

21:49But of course in those days it was pre-CD, so if you wanted to listen to any music like that, you had to go to Notting Hill Gate Record and Music Exchange and spend an entire afternoon looking through 1078s trying to find a record. Oh, 78s. Yeah. Oh my God. Because music wasn't really reissued. Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more.

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23:36Hi, I'm Maria Sharapova, host of the Pretty Tough podcast. Each episode, I sit down with high-achieving women to discuss the pursuit of excellence without apology. This week on the show, clinical psychologist and founder Dr. Becky Kennedy and I unpack what it really means to raise kids today. I think parenting is the most important job in the world and the one that has the most impact on your world and the world. It is non-stop. Check out Pretty Tough, new episodes on Wednesdays. You can watch it on YouTube or listen in your favorite podcast app.

24:11Because you described enrolling into St. Martins to study women's wear and realizing you had no idea how you wanted a woman to dress and you found your fashion compass in the millinery department. What is the difference between a dress designer and a hat designer? Well, I was doing fashion at St. Martins. St. Martins, by the way, not Central St. Martins, as you rightly said. Absolutely. So when I first left college, I was designing women's wear as well as hats. But what's the difference between the two things? I don't know. Not much in a way. Because when I think of hats, I always think of the body.

24:59And I think of the backbone first and then the head. And then I put a hat on it. I never really think of the hat in isolation. I always think it's part of being something. And often people do see hats as a separate thing, but I always like them as being just a continuation.

25:25I mean, I remember once asking John Caliano, why are you so interested in hats? Why do you like hats? And he said, oh, that's funny coming from you. and he said well why would dress designer stop being interested in the body at the neck like at the hem of the clothes at your wrist why would your interest stop there so in the same way as Dior thought it was just a continuation of the silhouette maybe a punctuation but really a continuation of the silhouette you know I think about it all in one having said that I quite like hats to be, my hats, to be a conversation piece. There's something about hats where they can be entertaining and cheer you up.

26:22And I actually think if that's all that a hat can be, just to cheer somebody up, it's the most fabulous thing ever yeah i mean it's better than i mean a fabulous therapy if you said he being on the sofa because you you mentioned something about a difference in ego that a designer has to have more ego than a milliner oh yeah what did you mean by that i i mean i think I think to be a fashion designer is so, so unbelievably difficult. And as the days go past, days, literally not only years, I think it becomes more and more difficult. They have to have a self-belief, which is extraordinary. And they sort of have to believe they're the best.

27:18Otherwise, you just couldn't do it and do it to themselves. and they have a message, and they have to be a very strong person. I mean, with any designer, I mean, for example, with Jonathan, unless he was completely decisive and clear, there's no way he could handle the workload. There's thousands of people who he has to direct, and because of that you have to be sure of yourself and sure of your power. If you're a milliner, it's very different because you have to learn, or maybe you are that way, of being able to fit into really somebody else's story. You are contributing to it hugely. but I mean for example at Dior it's Jonathan's name above the front door not mine and I'm fine with that always being the bridesmaid never the bride but no it's the way it should be and it's It's been my greatest privilege to work with the greatest design minds of our time.

28:49I mean, it's been extraordinary how to dip into their minds. It's a wonderful thing to sort of really be there with Vivian and seen her passion and sort of tried to understand her. and being with Ray and try to understand her. Even though, I mean, it's so funny. I always think, I mean, I don't really make hats for main collections now, but we sort of collaborate all the time on different projects. I always thought that if ever I sketched or made something that she would like, I know automatically she would hate it. Who's this, Vivian or Ray? Because she, I mean, she wanted the spice. Yeah. And the mixture, the thing which was unexpected, the thing that she didn't know about, the thing that she didn't want.

29:42Yes. And that's what made it work. I know. It was always impossible. I mean, I know it's an obvious thing, but working with Vivian, trying to fathom out what she might like and having to go completely sort of limp within and lose opinion and just flow with whatever it was that she had but hadn't even entirely articulated and just be there waiting to put something into action. And it was a great discipline because, you know, the fashion to be nice to everyone didn't exist then. And it wasn't a bad thing either to be helped, you know, to be pushed in that way. And I really value her sort of sneers of absolute contempt at some of my suggestions and the other ones where she really relied on me for something, something or other, that I was able to offer.

30:57I think she had complete faith in you, Bella. She sometimes did. I was really useless quite a lot of the time. And that's maybe the fact that you were useless is the reason why, because she didn't want somebody who was incredibly self-assured and was going to train her. You gave her the envelope within which she could express herself you made her feel safe which is why she could tell you what she wanted to have or whatever which is also a part of a wonderful collaboration i i mean i really believe that it's not only and it's the aura that surrounds you maybe you don't realize that maybe it's a good thing that you don't but you have that around you gosh well that's a nice thing to imagine i of course can only remember the time where she shouted at you i don't mind her shouting at me at all but i just remember the time where she designed these she had these ideas for prints that went on this shirt and shorts ensemble or it was so beautiful and um and then I remember the samples arriving and I'd go to Italy and put them into work and it was quite hard work because they were always saying no to me and I would try and find a way way around it and I used to be known as e possibile because i'd start every sentence with this e possibile that you can do this that but then i forgot to get the print put on the back of the shirt and this is if we had that conversation yesterday and her fat look of withering kind of oh my god it was terrible but anyway she made me strong You can just come on the sofa and have a cuddle.

32:59And I channel her forgiveness to you. And you were part of that squat that everyone cool lived in. Was it in Warren Street? In Warren Street, yes. Yeah. Was it Michael Clarke and John Mabry? Michael Clarke and John Mabry and David Hola. Yeah. Kim Bowen. Oh, Kim Bowen. Jeremy Healy. Right. Stephen Linnard. And then just down the road, Grayson Perry, Boy George, Marilyn. Because it was around the time of the Blitz Club. Yeah. Is that right? But you said you were a punk. And what was the appeal of punk for you? Well, I was a punk when I first went to college in 1976.

33:49And, I mean, vaguely. I mean, you talked about going into St. Martin's on that first day. And I went into this big room, and there were all these beige girls wearing cashmere. And there were a few punks on the other side of the room. And I went to the punks because I thought they were the cool people. But they looked more interested. And one of them, this girl called Shan, and she was in the band called The Nippler Act. and was an extraordinary punk. So, you know, two years later, in a way, by the late 70s, punk really, for us, was dead, and we were trying to find something else. So that's when we sort of really became new romantics.

34:41Or we were, it was, certainly it was New Wave, which was all fluorescence and geometry and Bauhaus. and then people started to be interested in historicism, I think, and that was when there was convergence of the Blitz and I was living in Warren Street. Well, I wasn't living in Warren Street. I had a workroom in Warren Street. I was actually living in Pimlicova. But it was an extraordinary place and we all really supported each other. Yeah. But we never imagined that X years later to be an exhibition at the Design Museum all about us. Yeah. I mean, extraordinary how life worked out. I know, because those clubs, I mean, there was the Blitz and there was the Embassy Club and the Vortex.

35:39That was where I went. And they were like finishing schools in those days. And what kind of bad manners got you somewhere or not? What kind of bad manners got you somewhere? Oh, I don't know. I think I always tried to have good manners. What got you somewhere wasn't bad manners. I think it was knowing the right people. I think people like Dougie Fields and Andrew Logan, Lucio Martinez and Brian Eno, if I got to say, and Derek Jarman. Because they showed us all how to party, how to get into a club, how to get a free drink. Yeah. Because none of us had any money. And also what's so different to now, the idea of the pursuit of money was so uncool.

36:37We were doing it for the beauty or the, I don't know. I mean, I guess we all wanted to be rich and famous or something. but certainly you weren't really doing it for the money. Money wasn't important. You were there to create something. It wasn't to create something new or to create something individual, but it was to create something that you could be, I think. Yeah, because the whole punk thing was, I suppose if you think of how to separate from your parents' generation And now how hard it is for young people because we're so kind of with it, the parent, you know, we're so understanding and accommodating.