BITESIZE | How To Stay Calm, Connected And In Control During Difficult Conversations | Jefferson Fisher #627

0:00Dr. Rangan Chatterjee:Today's Bite Size episode is sponsored by Heights. As I get older, I realise that staying healthy isn't just about living longer. It's about having the energy to really live those years as myself, to be present for my kids, my work, and for the people who matter most. Recently, I started taking Thrive, a new daily longevity supplement from Heights, a British company who focused on using science to make products that work. thrive is designed to support healthy aging at a cellular level helping you feel clearer more energized and more resilient as the years go by it combines four clinically studied ingredients at research-backed doses which together supports energy production cellular defense and long-term resilience all in one simple daily capsule it's one of the best products i have come across in this space.

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1:15Dr. Rangan Chatterjee:Welcome to feel better live more bite size, your weekly dose of positivity and optimism to get you ready for the weekend. Today's clip is from episode 571 with Jefferson Fisher, trial lawyer, public speaker, and author of The Next Conversation, Argue Less, Talk More. Jefferson believes that better communication can transform not only our relationships, but our health and happiness as well. And in this clip, he shares the three essential principles to better communication and how to shift from reaction to reflection by making your first words your breath. In your view, what are some of the common things that get in the way of people communicating effectively?

2:11Jefferson Fisher:Lots. The number one would be they assume that what is said is what was received in that instance. So if I were to tell you something, and we've felt this in relationships, we've felt this at work, you send a message, and they hear and they feel something very different. Maybe in an email, you wrote something, and all of a sudden, they go, why are you mad at me? You go, I'm not mad. Or you're talking, and somebody says, why are you yelling? You go, I'm not yelling. Or I'm not upset. And so we feel these instances where what we thought we said is not as what is received on the other end. So there's that kind of miscommunication.

2:49Jefferson Fisher:communication. Now there's also just the difficultness of being open and receptive in the moment, or we don't want to listen. So we're the ones not wanting to receive anything. We're the ones that are getting defensive. And on top of that, we often feel that conversation, especially disagreements, instantly become a competition where we want to win. We want to dominate. We want to compete. And those are recipes for a bad conversation real quick.

3:19Dr. Rangan Chatterjee:Yeah. You've got great information to share, but it's not just what you're sharing, it's how you're sharing it. There's a calmness, there's a friendliness. And I think, going back to what you said about what are the obstacles to good communication, basically what you're hearing is the tip of the iceberg. There's something going on beneath that.

3:42Jefferson Fisher:Yes. The person you see is often not the person you're talking to, meaning I'm talking to you right here, but I don't know the struggles you're having. I don't know if you had a difficult time this morning with the wife or the kids or anybody. And that's the same for anybody we meet. and how we talk to them in that moment, how we hear them in that moment often is a reflection of a lot of other influences rather than just saying, how dare they say that to me without ever questioning why would they say that? Where is this coming from? There's always a surface and a depth to anybody.

4:20Dr. Rangan Chatterjee:Yeah. Your book has these three core principles of how we can communicate better and have better conversations, right? Say it with control, or say it with confidence and say it to connect. That's right. Can you go through those three things step by step and help us understand what exactly they mean and also how we can start to apply them when we're having conversations?

4:45Jefferson Fisher:Rule one is say it with control. And what that is in a nutshell is rather than trying to control the other person when you're having a difficult conversation, which is typically the default, that's our gut urge is to control you. Where you actually find success is controlling yourself. So instead of trying to control them, what you do is control yourself. That's going to begin always a better conversation. Two is saying it with confidence, meaning how to find your assertive voice. People often feel like confidence is something they need to have before the conversation. They're saying, well, I'm kind of working up the confidence to say this.

5:22Jefferson Fisher:That's wrong. Confidence is not what you have before the conversation. Confidence is the outcome. it's a feeling it's the same thing if if i said hey look i need you to be sad right now sad as you've ever been with me right now there wouldn't be anything to trigger that to force that or if i said i need you to be mad right now there's nothing to do that but if i were to hit you in the shoulder out of nowhere you might be now you can be mad why because it came from something how you create the confidence is using your assertive voice. So I teach confidence is as assertive does. Three, rule three, is you say it to connect.

6:01Jefferson Fisher:Connection is two components. There's understanding and acknowledgement. I can understand you if you say something, but if I don't acknowledge you, you're not going to feel connected to me. The same time, if I can acknowledge you, but I don't really understand it, I'm not going to connect with you. And so you have to have these two components of understanding and creating connection in conversation by saying what you

6:24Dr. Rangan Chatterjee:mean and meaning what you say yeah you know as you were describing control there for me looking at a different way it was internal v external right so in general in life we have limited control on externalities we've got a lot more control on what's going on internally right and therefore if we apply that to what you just said you know if you're trying to control somebody else or manipulate what they say you know that is actually outside your control now you may argue that if you can communicate well and calmly and in a grounded fashion you are actually influencing what they say which is very clear from your work but i love the idea that it's about gaining control over ourselves.

7:14Dr. Rangan Chatterjee:Because I guess another way of looking at it, or I'd love your perspective on this, is it's clear to me that we see the world through the state of our nervous system, right? So if we're stressed, we're going to interpret emails a certain way, right? So people, for example, if they've had a well-rested weekend, they can read an email on Monday morning and be pretty calm when they read it. They could read that same email on a Friday afternoon after a busy week at work and interpret the email completely differently. The email hasn't changed. What's changed is the state of their nervous system. And I kind of feel that applies to communication, whereby you're going to communicate, and you do write about this, you're going to communicate in a way that reflects the state of your nervous system.

8:06Dr. Rangan Chatterjee:So if you're busy, stressed, tired, that unless you have a high degree of self-awareness, it's going to come out through your voice. So that thing about control, it's like this is about self-awareness and controlling ourselves, right?

8:21Jefferson Fisher:Right. It is this sense of anytime we have disagreement, have that friction, the dissonance in a conversation, we quickly return to this state of competition. We want to win and we see it as a threat. Any little opinion that is different from our own, our body likes to treat it as a threat. We go, no, no, no, no, that's not, they need to agree with me. Because if not, then it doesn't feel comfortable. If not, then it feels like they're trying to undermine me. They're saying I'm wrong. I don't like to be wrong. I'm not wrong. And we start to try and control that narrative. No, no, no. I need to say something so compelling that you're going to have to agree with me.

9:01Jefferson Fisher:Or I'm going to say something that is so snappy, so clapback, so powerful that you're going to go, oh my gosh, you're so right. How could I ever imagine any other opinion than the one that you have? And so we try and force that. That's where we go wrong, is we try and force and control that conversation. Instead, when you start to control yourself, you also sound like you're in control. And those who sound like they're in control are the ones that are listened to. And the ones that lead, these are the ones that have the calm energy that people go, I don't know what they have, but I like it. You know what?

9:36Jefferson Fisher:That sounds more reasonable. That's what's wild to me is you say, what sounds reasonable? It's typically the person who just sounds with their voice more reasonable versus somebody who, the words matter far less to me than the way that you sound in the way that you make people feel that's that's the heart of the the communication yeah now

10:07Dr. Rangan Chatterjee:what you just said was super powerful right so i imagine some people are going to hear that and be thinking about the last disagreement they had with their partner yeah their spouse right That's often where people go to all their parents, whatever it might be, right? And what I love about how you teach this in this chapter is you talk about this three-step process, right? Your first word is your breath. Your first thought is a quick scan and your first conversation is a small talk. Can we focus a little bit on breathing through the lens of conflicts and communication and the importance of the breath when we're communicating?

10:53Jefferson Fisher:Yeah. Anybody who's listening and loves your podcast, which you have an amazing podcast, by the way, is that the breath, they're familiar with that. They know the benefits of it. What I'm going to encourage them to do is understand the benefits of your actual conversation, how you can use the breath in your communication to lead to better outcomes. What happens in disagreements is we tend to hold our breath. In fact, I would even be willing to say that a lot of people hold their breath more than they think. They might be very stressed out. Maybe they're overwhelmed at work. They're scrolling through emails.

11:28Jefferson Fisher:You might be listening to us right now while you're driving, and you're worried about your workday and you're holding your breath without you thinking about it. And what happens? It puts you in a low-grade state of anxiety. You might all of a sudden go, you realize, oh, I'm not breathing. And your body's telling you that you're feeling like you're drowning in some sense because in a way you are kind of suffocating yourself. Well, breath and communication slows things down. If you want to control the moment, if you want to sound like you have more control and you want to have more better control over the outcome, and the influence of it, let your breath be the first word that you say, meaning wherever your first word would be in your response.

12:09Jefferson Fisher:Let's say you said something to me that I didn't like, or really it could be anything, but something that's going to require actual thoughts, something above just the casual, how's it going, what's going on. We often just feel like I have to have that rapid response. I need to be right there. I need to step on the end of your sentence and I need to talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. Where the actual power is, is where the first word would be, I put a breath in its place. Why? Because it gives us time. When you slow things down, it controls the moment more. Which one sounds like somebody who's someone who you want to listen to and follow?

12:51Jefferson Fisher:Somebody who says, reacts and goes, look, I already told you, I'm not going to do that. I already told you, I'm not going to do that. Same words. Yeah. Which one sounds like somebody you don't want to mess with? Which is one, somebody who sounds like, you know what? I could follow that guy or girl. I could follow this person. This is somebody who sounds balanced, grounded,

13:18Dr. Rangan Chatterjee:in control. Yeah. There's a gravitas. Absolutely.

13:21Jefferson Fisher:Yeah. The first voice sounds like I'm grasping for control. I need it. Give it to me. I'm not in control. I need it. The other person sounds like, no, no, no, no. I've never lost it. I'm right here. This also speaks to nonverbal communication,

13:35Dr. Rangan Chatterjee:doesn't it? Because it's what is the energy that I'm giving off as I'm having this conversation? Because people respond to energy, don't they? They respond to stress. Like people, you know, Humans are a social species. We can mirror what's going on around us. Our nervous systems kind of respond to the nervous systems of the people around us. And so when you're able to, I guess, master your nervous system, maybe mass is too strong. I mean, if you can, amazing. At least gain some degree of control over it. Your communication is automatically going to get better.

14:16Jefferson Fisher:Yes, because you never get emotionally flooded. I mean, we've had these arguments with people in our life, typically the ones we love most, where they become shouting matches. And to where you're shouting and you don't even really know what you're saying at some point. It doesn't matter if it's logical or not. It doesn't matter if it makes sense. You just know you're reacting because there's a threat. You either want to, I mean, that's why our fists clench because your body's ready to swing. Sting. You may not throw a punch, but you're going to say a hurtful word. You want it to cut. You want that word to sting.

14:52Jefferson Fisher:Same thing. Or people who want to, if you've been on the phone and somebody just hangs up while you're talking or they instantly want to leave the room, that's the flight. You find that in every conversation that you have. And the person that controls their nervous system, which to me is the number one way to do that in conversation, is your breath because it slows things down. It keeps the analytical side engaged. You know this. And a lot of your listeners, of course, know this. It is something that can improve their conversation because it never sounds like you're lost. It never sounds like you're unsure of yourself or that you're grasping or desperate, that you've lost your sense of control.

15:31Jefferson Fisher:of control.

15:32Dr. Rangan Chatterjee:When you were talking about maybe you're in a difficult conversation before you start reacting and just blurting out words, you're saying that first word is your breath. Okay. So you're, what is that an inhale?

15:43Jefferson Fisher:Yeah. So it's, you would know this as a physiological sigh. It's where it's a double inhalation where it's about three seconds into your nose, two seconds in again at the top, and then all out through your nose again. Now we can do that in a sense of very exaggerated. I'm not, not talking about the sigh of like what my five-year-old would do of like, uh, like not, not that type of, not that type of breath, but you want to be able to use it and you can do it silently anytime right before you say something that you need a catch a moment. Or if somebody is saying something that's, you can tell you it's, you don't like, and you're getting worked up.

16:20Jefferson Fisher:You ever heard somebody like making an opinion or saying something you don't like and what happens you our bodies go like we everything we don't like it we kind of start to seize up we start we take a big breath we're like okay I don't I'm I don't I gotta I gotta get ready because why we're about ready to unleash all of our our words and so when you hold your breath that's why your breath has really nowhere to go except to yell yeah often it it decreases communication it's the same way of you know how at least if you're trying to find directions and you're trying to find a house and you have blaring music, you have to like turn down the music so you can, you know, like, let me turn on this music so I can see.

17:00Jefferson Fisher:It's kind of that same mentality of when somebody's yelling, you can't really listen.

17:04Dr. Rangan Chatterjee:Yeah. It's, it's this whole, we see the world through the state of our nervous system, right? That person said that thing that you didn't like. And if you start to react and hold your breath, which may be understandable, right? You're changing the state of your nervous system. So everything is coming inward. Your focus is coming inward. You are getting prepared to fight. So of course, the next words you say are going to come out with a certain energy. So I love that sort of idea that you make it, and you know, that whole section in that chapter, you do sort of walk people through how you can practice this breath and get to the point whereby you're doing it naturally in conversation where the person doesn't even know that you're doing it.

17:46Dr. Rangan Chatterjee:Yeah, absolutely. And I'm happy to do it right now if you want to. Okay, all right.

17:49Jefferson Fisher:So if you're listening right now, let's practice this. I call this a conversational breath, and it's a breath that you can use, and nobody's really going to know that you're doing it. There's nothing special. It's just the choice to be intentional with your breath, and let's do it together. So it's all going to be through your nose, and it's going to be a double inhale, meaning we're going to inhale twice. Ready? So if you're listening, we're going to go three seconds in through your nose, two more at the top, and then all out through your nose. now just listening to us right now your shoulders should have dropped just a little bit you're going to feel just a little bit calmer that's your go-to when somebody is saying something you don't like or uh you're about to respond so right now i want you rongan to continue to do the conversational breath and i'm going to continue to say some things to you so rongan yes i understand you have a podcast and yeah it's a health podcast in fact it's the number one health podcast in the world.

18:42Jefferson Fisher:But you know what? I don't know if you're doing as well as you need to. I mean, you could be these lights. Have you seen these cameras? I don't know if I even really like these microphones. Now see, as you're talking to me right now, I see, I don't even realize that you're breathing any differently than anybody else. And so anytime somebody's saying something that's agitating to you in that sense, it's allowing you to see the depth, right? It's allowing you to see the cause rather than getting worked up and holding your breath to fight the symptoms.

19:07Dr. Rangan Chatterjee:Yeah, it's amazing because you're slowing everything down, right? So, you know, using that analogy being in the car again, if your car is going fast down the street, you're not going to have to take everything in, right? Because everything's going back quickly. You slow down your car and go down the street, you can suddenly see everything clearly. I saw that number, I saw that number, you know, that's what we're going, there's a cat coming, whatever it might be, right? So when we slow everything down, our perspective is different. We see more clearly. So clearly in a conversation, especially a conversation that perhaps isn't going the way that you want it to, if you're able to slow things down, you're going to be more present.

19:50Dr. Rangan Chatterjee:You're going to have that separation between the stimulus, the words you don't like, and the response you're about to give.

19:59Jefferson Fisher:Exactly. Time has a way of sifting out priority. we all know we've had these moments and conversations that feel really intense with that friend at the cafe the next day you know what that conversation really didn't matter all that much or a week goes