Healing the Body with Meditation: Simple Daily Practices For Health & Happiness with Henry Shukman #590

28:58I really hope that you can join me.

29:06Henry Shukman:I love all the ones you mentioned. I do them myself, actually. And I think they're very, they've been critical for my development, my well-being. The difference with meditation is that we're not really doing anything. I would say stack it with one of those. If you're doing one of those solitude practices, walking in the woods, yeah, journaling, lovely. Just add five minutes. Put in five minutes somewhere where you lay down the pen, you sit on a log, on a branch, on a bench, and you're just still. And you just let yourself be. Because the big thing about it is not doing. If we didn't think of it as meditation, we just call it not doing.

29:56Henry Shukman:That's all we need to say. We're not moving. We're not walking. We're breathing. And we're aware. And gradually, in time, it's like this tide of commotion within us. It just starts to settle. It's not that it does it within every meditation session. but if we're doing it every day over time over a month two months three months you'll start to feel it the tide of commotion yeah just recedes the sense i i got from reading original love is well many things but one of the senses i got was this idea that it's about the practice of meditation, not necessarily the outcome of the meditation. Some days you'll experience calm and presence.

30:47Other days it will be a busy, hectic mind, but that's all okay. So instead of judging on the outcome, I mean, don't judge it at all, but if you're going to judge it on anything, judge it on whether you're actually sitting down and practicing every day. Do the five minutes.

31:03Henry Shukman:I mean, you're the Zen master, so tell me if I've got this right, but that's my sense. That's exactly right. And actually, we say on our app, the way we say, there's no bad meditation, or the only bad meditation is the one you didn't do. Just the very fact of sitting down with the intention of being still and quiet. That's it. It's absolutely true. Because here's the thing. It's like, again, with that outcome focus, we're back to that frame of mind where I've got to try to get what I want in life. I've got to try to get what I want and it's very understandable but meditation really isn't about that and for most people when we start it is and that's okay it was for me I didn't know what I needed I just desperately needed something different when I was anxious and really uncomfortable One of the things I've been thinking about on my summer break is this idea of things that we want How do we even know that what we want is what we truly want anyway?

32:08Right? Because that's the truth. It's like we think we want things. Exactly. Yeah, but where's that even come from? And how do you even know that getting what you think that you want is what you really want or what you need, right?

32:21Henry Shukman:That's exactly right. It's like that's part of a system. It's just one system of there's me in here seeking things out there that me in here thinks he wants. But if I can see that as a system, that's just a kind of, it's almost like it's a game going on. But there's a wider view. There's a larger perspective where I can see Henry's been trying to get this, Henry's been trying to get that, Henry's been trying to avoid that. But who is it that's seeing that Henry's doing all that? Isn't that Henry too? And it's such a different perspective. So the thing with the getting from meditation is we can start to get more calm.

33:06Henry Shukman:We totally can. But we get it not just by creating more calm through the meditation. We get it through patience. Patience starts to grow. We start to let ourselves be as we are. And so it's kind of a little bit paradoxical. It is. We get what we want because we're okay not getting it. Yeah. You see what I mean? Yeah. And that sort of highlights another theme throughout your book, throughout what I've been thinking about recently, which is why I think the timing of this conversation is perfect. And I have, I think I've posted about this before, this idea that the most important things in life we gain through experience.

33:56Yes, you can learn things. You can read a book about something. You can get guidance on the importance of meditation. But you only really get it when you experience it for yourself. And then when you've experienced it for yourself, in some ways it doesn't matter what the people around you are saying because you know that truth.

34:15Henry Shukman:I couldn't agree more. And that's what I'm always trying to convey with the meditation. It's like I can say feel this, feel that, and find deep states of absorption and flow that feel so good. It's meaningless unless you're getting it yourself. And when it's your own, it doesn't matter what I'm saying. Because you've got it. That's where I'm trying to help people. You really are. I mean, you mentioned your app, The Way. It is bloody fantastic, honestly. It's such a beautiful app. And the way you've curated a journey, a meditation journey for people, is phenomenal. I've been using it myself for the past week and I'm looking forward to continuing that journey with it.

35:00It's really, really great. What you just said about it's the act of sitting there and in many ways doing nothing reminds me of something you wrote in your book where you say meditation is the great adventure of a lifetime, even if all we do is sit still for a few minutes a day. I mean, it's a beautifully evocative statement that, and in so many ways, it is the polar opposite of how we've all been brought up, particularly in the West, right? And I see it in my children, from the minute they start school, it's about do, do, do. Some of the kids at schools are so overcommitted and over busy. And, you know, I respect everyone's right to their opinion.

35:48And maybe for certain outcomes, it is a good thing. But to me, I'm thinking all we're doing is training children from a young age that they can't just sit and be. You have to constantly be doing something and moving on to that and doing this task and this activity. I think that's a problem, right? Yeah, you might achieve success in societal's definition of success. But in terms of the success I think we all want, which is that inner peace and contentment, I'm not convinced that that's the right approach.

36:20Henry Shukman:That's why I call the book original love. Because originally there's love and it's here right now. And if you have a concept like original sin, the Western foundation of its Judeo-Christian spiritual system, you're wrong. You start bad. You start needing to prove yourself, needing to become worthy, needing to, you know, and then you add that, the whole industrial and post-industrial work ethic, work, work, work. It's all, you're not okay until you've achieved and accomplished, whatever it might be. I don't agree. I think we start okay. We're built in already okay, wanted, belonging, beloved even.

37:08Henry Shukman:You know, just by the fact of existing, the universe wants us here or we wouldn't be here in some sense, you know. And so original love is what we can come back to. Not having to escape some shame state, original sin. Not having to escape that and prove that we deserve our place on this earth. No. It's the opposite of that. It's just by being. You know, we can break the, again, I'm not saying don't do anything, you know but have space in your day when you're not doing a thing yeah when you're just being yeah it's kind of interesting in a world now where people are saying that wellness is the preserve of the the wealthy and the middle classes but if we think about what you're saying at its very core yes you have an app which is very reasonably priced so people want to you know, engage in it.

38:09Okay. At the same time, what you're simply saying is sit for five minutes a day and essentially do nothing. That is accessible to every single person. It doesn't matter your income level, you know, where you grow up in the world. Like everyone has access to that, But you almost have to stop the doing. And I think this is one of the reasons why people in the West struggle with meditation. It's like, okay, I'm going to do it to get this. But, and I think I used to do that. But the truth is, Henry, I love meditating. I didn't at first. It was a struggle. but there is just this luxurious feeling of bliss and calm sometimes when i sit in meditation that's not a chore that's like no this feels amazing exactly and i think everyone has the

39:11Henry Shukman:opportunity to experience that i i do too just by virtue of being a human being we already have access to it the problem is just we're so conditioned in not knowing that we have access to it it's just like a faulty imprinting on our consciousness that our society has given us our culture has given us you must be doing you must be achieving you must be avoiding what a what you don't want to face and you know and actually it's really sad in a way i mean it's beautiful in the oh my gosh we've all got it we just gotta we just gotta learn it's sad to see children being conditioned out of it it is that's what that's something i find deeply sad because it's like no no you know they've already got it they're born with it yeah you know i'd love to know your views on happiness actually i believe happiness is our default state and one of the bits of evidence as it were that i would use to um support my case is just look at children look at a two-year-old a three-year-old look how present calm in the moment they are exactly you know exactly and they're exploring and creating yeah that's who we are before societal conditioning yes um so on the subjects of happiness i mean what's the relationship between meditation and happiness and is happiness our default state i believe it is again original love it's like coming back to a profound well-being that's really always here.

40:46Henry Shukman:It's like, and honestly, even in difficult situations, when we've got something complex, challenging going on and we're stressed around it, even then, I believe, actually, there's an unconditional well-being that's actually present, even then. And I've known it myself. I've found that in times of difficulty when suddenly it flips and suddenly I can see Henry's in this difficult situation. But there's a larger perspective that I sense, you know, that is at peace. And it's already well, even while there's a challenge going on. So I do think it's like, I'd say, is it a default setting or is it that there's just this slightly wider perspective?

41:39Henry Shukman:I feel there's always a bigger picture. And in the slightly wider perspective, that's where we see, wow, yeah, there's a lot of turmoil and difficulty and trouble. And still, there's an okayness that's able to see from that larger perspective. Let's get into these four ends on the path of awakening. Mindfulness, support, absorption, and awakening. it's one of the first times I've actually seen a roadmap laid out on the kind of journey one could take if they participate in meditation and it's a journey that I'm thinking yeah I'm ready for this journey I kind of the truth is I'm already on this journey because I've been meditating on and off for years I particularly probably want to focus on the the final two absorption and awakening but if you wouldn't mind just giving a brief overview of each one what they are yeah just so people can follow along that would be super helpful so you know what are these four ends and why did you choose them yeah okay well i think these are the primary dimensions that meditation practice can open up for us that they deal with and it's i i wanted to write this and lay it out like this because there's a lot of confusion around it meditation has grown exponentially in in the globalized western world over the last 20 years that's a good thing it's a very good thing okay but it's all new here and there's still confusion around it so people hear the term awakening they hear mindfulness are they the same thing they might think well this teacher said they are this one said they're not i don't know i'm confused so So this is a basic map of the ground, of the territory.

43:32Henry Shukman:And I'm not sure it's entirely comprehensive, but it's pretty good. It covers pretty much all the basics. So the first mindfulness, yes, about becoming more aware, able to recognize what's going on inside me, thoughts and feelings, emotions, moods, can be very happy, can be not so happy, and talk in the mind, images in the mind, the experience of thinking, very common for all of us, energies in the body, being more aware of that and also being aware of hearing, hearing the sounds, seeing sights and colors and shapes and faces and everything and body sensation, physical body sensation, being more aware in all those ways.

44:19Henry Shukman:That's mindfulness. and it can help to dial down our nervous system. It can really help to interrupt when our nervous system is on overdrive, when the sympathetic nervous system is firing up, we're in subtle stress or strong stress. It can dial it down and we come back to a baseline. We open up the parasympathetic nervous system, more rest, rest and digest, coming into a calmer state. And so it really helps to kind of tone and balance the nervous system. And before we go into the second end, just on that first hit of mindfulness, if that's the only one that we ever focused on, those things you're talking about are pretty incredible.

45:00They're enormous. Moving your system from the stressed out, burnt out, chronically exhausted state that many people find themselves in into that more peaceful, relaxed state, which is also going to impact your sleep, how calm you feel, your gut. All these things are going to improve.

45:18Henry Shukman:even that alone that first in has huge benefits doesn't it it totally does i mean i'd say most of the first few years of my meditation practice was all about that i mean one of the things that happened to me when i started to meditate and you know i really really seriously started i did twice a day every day you know without fail because i was desperate enough that i needed to because of your skin because of my skin and the anxiety with it that came with it i slept insanely the first week i was sleeping 18 hours a night 20 hours a night literally like a lion yeah literally i was so exhausted and i didn't i hadn't realized i was and then and then i i i paid off my sleep debt as some people called it and i suddenly was awake i love the fact you shared that one thing i've noticed um people will contact me or if i'm doing a live event and we do a breath work practice together or a certain you know we go through something and often people will yawn and there's often confusion you know say oh it's making me tired it's no no it's not making you tired it's just you're stuck in a stressed out adrenaline driven nervous system the whole time when you actually relax your body is realizing how tired and chronically exhausted it is so the practice isn't making you tired it's just uncovering what is actually there within already exactly exactly and i always say like but it's a barometer meditation it shows us how we're doing and sometimes we're just exhausted and we need to sleep i always tell people if you start meditating you get really sleepy lie down asleep count the nap if you need a nap count it as meditation so So even, that's kind of interesting.

47:04Even if the meditation teaches you that you're chronically exhausted and need to rest, and instead of completing the meditation, you nap, that's still a benefit. Because had you not done that, you probably would have kept doing, doing, doing, and pushing through and kicking the can down the road. That's exactly right. Whereas it just gives you the opportunity to go, oh, I need to rest.

47:27Henry Shukman:Exactly. It's checking in with ourselves, coming back to ourselves, seeing how we're doing it's critical okay I think you mentioned this in the book but again is it are we looking for that path up to the top of the mountain and along the way on this path of meditation we pass these ends I mean that sort of makes it feel as though it's a linear journey which of course I don't think it is a linear journey but is that useful for us to look at it like that? I think early on it is useful it's good to feel that we're on a journey got it and we build this into the app by the way So that people, because it's a single no-choice pathway we have on the app, which moves through these four ins, but it does it cyclically.

48:08Henry Shukman:But it helps us to know that we sort of feel like we're going somewhere. And in some ways we are. But on the other hand, as I think you're suggesting really, these are more like dimensions of our being. They're not exactly sequential. They may be somewhat, but they totally don't have to be. okay you know i guess for the purpose of this conversation to really land the concepts let's i guess we can think of it a little bit linear right so we can do that the first in we pass on the way to the top of the mountain is mindfulness and um you just covered that the next in is that of support yeah support connection connectedness so this is critical because, you know, now there's millions of people now doing mindfulness.

48:58Henry Shukman:And just like we've already said in this conversation, they very often feel kind of, I've got to do my mindfulness. It's like going to the gym and doing my reps. I've got to do my work with the mindfulness. That misses a critical point from my point of view, which is that actually as we settle, we get more connected. We're more open to relating. We're more open. We become more receptive. We're ready to receive connection and support. And the way this can happen is in the world of meditation, for example, simply having guidance can be really helpful early on on the meditation journey. I mean meditation guidance.

49:48Henry Shukman:having somebody actually guide your sitting. So from a teacher, from a class that you attend, from an app like you're at, for example, where you're giving us the guidance and there's obviously, I don't know how many meditation apps out there, but this all counts as sort of guidance and support, does it? It totally does. Yeah, so don't feel that it's just down to you on your own. Just reaching out for a little bit of support in any of those ways or with a friend who's trying to meditate is this potentially one of the reasons why we fall off these practices because let's say someone hears this podcast and goes yeah you know all those benefits are mindfulness i quite fancy that and so they they start meditating or they download your app and start using the way and um it's the risk that you'll do it for a little while as a solo pursuit but at some point it will just get too much because it's always down to you and your motivation and your discipline and your desire help me in the sand support right because fundamentally unless someone has access to a class nearby, they kind of are doing it themselves in their living room or in their bedroom, aren't they?

51:09So what does support mean in that context?

51:12Henry Shukman:Yeah, well, I mean, you've laid out the problem exactly, that people, if they're falling off, they'll think, I must push myself harder, or it's down to me. One phone call to a friend who's also trying to meditate will do far more. It's like suddenly you're not alone in it. And that makes so much difference. And or one yoga class where there's meditation at the end, just being in a context of other human beings. Even if it's remotely? Yeah, even if it's remotely, totally. Yeah, absolutely. So don't do this by yourself. Have a little bit of a connection with some community or some person that is already doing it.

51:59Henry Shukman:We typically think it's down to me to make something happen, especially with a new habit formation, something like that. But actually, and it is, it is, but one little sense of connection to somebody else who's also trying to do it will make often far more difference than me trying to push myself. Is that, it's surprising how that works. You know, I think, I mean, I used to find this as a writer. I started writing very young, and it was how I made my living for a long time. And I'd get stuck, and I'd be trying to work it out, trying to work it out. Then I happened to run into a friend who's an artist, or another writer.

52:41Henry Shukman:And we just chat for 10 minutes, or we go and have a cup of coffee, chat for an hour. And suddenly, I've got a whole new orientation. And the problem is different. And I can handle it. And you know you're not alone, or the struggles you're having and the same struggles they're having. Exactly. You just feel this connection to what it means to be human. When you talk to other people, you go, oh, you're struggling with that as well. Yeah, so am I. Suddenly you have this new energy and enthusiasm just when you know you're not alone. That's exactly right. That's precisely it. And that's really important on this journey of meditation.

53:14Henry Shukman:Just also to say that there's ways in which we're just totally supported already. and meditation, I believe, is about finding some of those. You know, we wouldn't be here without breathing. The atmosphere is every breath, every moment we're being supported by the atmosphere. We wouldn't be here without fluids. We need to drink. We're made of, you know, whatever it is, 70 % seawater or wherever we are. You know, we're totally dependent. You know, we think we're independent and isolated, but we're not actually. And, you know, the flesh of my body is everything I eat has made it, and I'm made of this earth.

53:56Henry Shukman:And the warmth of the sun keeps me alive. And so the point is just rediscovering, you know, that we're kind of embedded in this world. We're not isolated. That's another aspect of this second in of support. It's rediscovering that I'm not actually totally independent, isolated. You can't be. You know, we're made of this planet. Yeah. You know, this table in front of us is made of wood. Someone would have had to chop the wood down, carve it, varnish it, put it here in front of us so that we can now have this conversation. Exactly. And they themselves had to eat. And that came from the wheat fields and the fruit and the vegetables.

54:41Can we think of support also in terms of our ancestors? A hundred percent.

54:45Henry Shukman:I write about that in the book. Like, you know, what we are has come down from these millions of generations of living beings of different kinds. Yeah, it's kind of interesting. One of the things I've been talking about in my sort of recent live shows is about my relationship with my dad. And dad's life a little bit. And what's happened since my dad died. and how although it was over 12 years ago now I think about my dad probably now more than ever and I still feel that he's here and actually I now see my dad's death as a gift to me in the sense that the things that I've learned through my dad's death I don't think I would have learned if my dad was still alive.

55:43And again, just to be clear, I'm not expecting anyone else to reframe their parents' death in that way. I certainly wasn't doing that in the first year or two after dad died. But now I'm choosing to look at that through this lens, and I kind of feel it speaks to the second inner support. Because, you know, and I could bring my moments this as well, I guess, but I'm only here because of what my parents have done and the sacrifices they made and the things that they did for me to enable me to do what I do today.

56:19Henry Shukman:Yes. I remember at my dad's funeral, after the cremation, there was a religious ceremony. It was conducted by a Hindu priest. And a big part of it is acknowledging your ancestors and praying to ancestors. I don't think I quite realize the importance of that until quite recently, but I think it speaks to support this idea that we're not just here in isolation by ourselves. There's so many different things that are necessary in order for us to be here. And I kind of feel a lot of people come to meditation because they want to help with their depression or their anxiety, right? But one thing I've noticed in my clinical career, Henry, is that many people, let's say with depression or with a diagnosis of depression, are very isolated, right?

57:15They're living for a variety of reasons in a very me world. And if you can help people get out of that I world and me world and volunteer and connect with others and feel that actually you're part of this kind of rich tapestry of human experience,

57:34Henry Shukman:everything starts to change yes it 100 does exactly i think um and i think the point about ancestors is is absolutely right that we're not it's not just a sort of horizontal uh connectedness in the world it's vertical it's across time and to feel you know i i have this i've sometimes on meditation retreats i've i felt like i've seen all many many ancestors you know standing behind me and their lives are what have enabled me to have this life and this very moment. And my mother and my father, without them, I wouldn't be here. And to feel that, just as you say, it brings on a kind of humility that is sweet and can make us grateful for every moment.

58:23Henry Shukman:And I totally agree with you about the isolation that is a very common thing these days, actually and how to cut through it and again it's like this support this inner support is a sort of corrective for the mindfulness i've got to do i've heard that mindfulness can help with depression indeed it can and uh you know but with with caution and with careful use and guidance of mindfulness with depression but not to the exclusion of being open to others yeah you know and how do i what is the vulnerability i need to feel in order to be able to open to others and what's the vulnerability i need to feel in order to say i need help you know that's that's very scary for a lot of us please help me reaching out yeah you know many of us don't really want to do that we've been ingrained in this culture of i've got to manage and cope myself and there's a resistance we have i think i'm speaking for myself i had a lot of resistance to being able to reach out and ask for help when i most needed it why

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1:01:49Henry Shukman:I think in my case, there was a lot of shame. I grew up with a lot of shame about the way I looked with my skin condition. People don't want to hear from me. You know, it's kind of the mindset I had. and it was and depression brings shame i was depressed when i was a young man as well as anxious you know depression brings shame stigma i i felt so bad that my mental health wasn't good you know it's not only did i have you know feeling really feeling bad bad not not good I was ashamed of feeling bad. You thought you should be able to feel good. Yeah, it was a sign of my total incompetence as a human being, my failure as a human being, that I wasn't feeling good.

1:02:41Henry Shukman:I wasn't feeling alive. I knew I could, and I wasn't. I was feeling down and unmotivated, and I was kind of going through the motions of a postgraduate degree, actually, at the time. but my heart wasn't in it and I felt bad about that and in some way I felt unworthy, not good enough. And so again, it was when I started to meditate that I just began to find little cracks in that mindset starting to happen. a little here and there a little ray of light would come in just for a moment a lot of cracks in the story the story you're telling yourself that you believe to be real it's like we said before about when you're in chronic pain you're not in chronic pain 100 % of the time no, no, exactly and as soon as you understand that and see oh I wasn't in pain there I wasn't in pain there it starts to break through the cracks right in probably a very similar way exactly, exactly the light just a little bit started to come in and I could reach out for help and it was what I needed to do.

1:03:57Henry Shukman:And, you know, so, I mean, personally my journey has been very much about I sort of do my part and for the keystone habit my life has been meditation, but I also learned to reach out, especially when I least want to. Yeah. You know.

1:04:21Henry Shukman:How much do you meditate these days? Well, it's daily, you know, and it varies. Sometimes, you know, if I'm on retreat, it's quite a lot. I don't want to scare anybody. You don't have to do 10 hours a day, but I have done 10 hours a day at times for quite a lot at certain times in my life. But my average is about an hour a day, you know. In one go? uh might be or it might be half an hour in the morning half an hour later so you're quite fluid and flexible but you will do it yeah i'll always do it and what about something i wanted to ask you about well we'll get back to the internet we've covered the first two mindfulness and support and you know there's plenty more in original love about those two ends right we're just covering the surface here um but one of the things i think people struggle with these days they're kind of stuck in a loop where they're stressed out, they're busy, they've got too many things to do, they don't feel they've got time to meditate, they hear about the importance of sleep, right?

1:05:26And therefore it's like, yeah, hold on a minute, but how am I going to fit this in to an already busy life? Okay. And I was thinking about this idea that if you, it reminds, I think it was when I spoke to Sadhguru on this podcast a few years ago, the Indian mystic. Amazing guy. I think he was talking about this idea, well, if you're not creating a load of stress anyway, you need less sleep. So if you're living a calm existence, there's less to recover from when you sleep. But I was thinking, well, hold on a minute. Maybe if we all meditated more and were less stressed and calmer, well, maybe a lot of us would get by with six hours of sleeping items.

1:06:16maybe we can't look at how much sleep we need without looking at the context of our entire life so do you feel sometimes that if you meditate regularly you perhaps can get away with less sleep

1:06:29Henry Shukman:i do believe it can be a deep form of rest you know they talk about non-sleep deep rest nsdr and meditation definitely is a is one way that we can bring on that deep rest and in some meditation traditions, they would claim that in meditation, it's a deeper rest. Yeah, I've seen that. More restata than sleep. And so, yeah, there's some schools that say, hey, if you're doing in TM, for example, transcendental meditation, which was a popular form years back, and is what I did at first, they'll say, if you're doing your daily dose, 20 minutes twice a day, you need less sleep and i think it's i think it's true once you've paid off a sleep debt you know and if you if you've got a sleep debt you'll need you'll know and because it'll show up as fatigue and then you got to pay it off with rest but but once we're in a steady habit with meditating i do think it's actually true that we need a bit less sleep certainly if we're i mean people on a on a on a on a an intensive meditation retreat where you are meditating let's say 10 hours a day you need much less sleep.

1:07:41Henry Shukman:And we're actually creeping into the third in. Let's do that. Let's creep in. So the third in is flow in meditation, or samadhi it's called, or absorption. It's where we get into these beautiful states of mind. And they call it, the traditional name is samadhi in the meditation world. Sanskrit word? Yes. And it's something about everything held together, everything unified. It's very, and it's energized and it's peaceful and it's calm and it's clear and it's effortless. The most common way people find it is in activities, actually, because it's not exclusive to meditation, this. The flow states have been really thoroughly researched since there was a guy called Csikszentmihalyi back in the 70s and 80s who began pioneering research on flow states.

1:08:34Henry Shukman:And, you know, people, athletes will get into it. musicians, actually anybody will get into flow now and then while engaged in some kind of activity. And it can be from a very challenging activity like, you know, basketball or, you know, getting in the zone, painting or something, you know, an artist or a musician. But it can also be just simple repetitive tasks will get into a flow state. Is that different from getting into a flow state whilst meditating because, you know, the things you mentioned are about doing something, right? And we spoke about doing already. So we're, you know, yeah, surfing, mountain biking, playing guitar, you know, painting, right?

1:09:24So we're doing an activity where we switch off. Well, it feels as though, you know, time stands still, we're fully immersed, body and mind, there's no separation that feels as though it's different though from reaching that state

1:09:38Henry Shukman:by just sitting there or is it different well it's a great question and it's i've thought i've wondered about this a lot when flow comes on in an activity um because it becomes effortless and time stands still exactly as you said and there's much less sense of self you know we're not so self-conscious. It's almost like we're not doing for some other purpose. We're just doing the thing we're doing. And that's enough. It's for its own. We're doing it for the sake of doing it. And it's fulfilling. So in meditation, just transferring all of that to meditation, the great difference is that we're not doing an outward activity.

1:10:25Henry Shukman:That is the big difference in meditation. So we're getting into similar states with our own being, with our own being, you know, and, and, and it's, it's where meditation really is starting to kick in and show us what it's been about all along, which is not for other purposes, just for its own sake. We're doing it without a kind of ulterior motive, you know. But it is similar to flow in other areas because it's got the same sort of characteristics. It's effortless. I would say for me, if I think about my own experience, I can experience, you know, traditional flow as Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi would describe it in all kinds of activities.

1:11:17If I'm playing my guitar and I've got an idea for a new song and I'm sort of lost in that, I could be there for 90 minutes and I'm like, oh, wow. You know, I didn't realize, you know, it was wonderful. But I feel when I get it or when I have experienced it in meditation, it feels quite different. And I imagine they're both things that we want, ideally. I think about life a lot through the lens of dependencies. How dependent am I on externalities in order to feel a certain way, right? The words of other people, acquiring things, the weather to be right, whatever it might be. And I used to be very dependent.

1:12:01I would say these days, not so much. but you can almost argue that flow from an external source also has a dependency attached to it i need to be playing my guitar in order to get the flow i need to be on my mountain bike in order to access that flow which is all fine yeah right nothing wrong with that at all But it feels really quite empowering to know that, yeah, but I can also do that with nothing.

1:12:34Henry Shukman:That's exactly right. I find it just amazing how fulfilled we can be by not doing anything, by just sitting still. That's the beauty of the flow in meditation, is that we're finding that instead of needing stuff, needing anything external, just in our own being, we can be completely fulfilled, at peace, alive, energized, clear, calm, but not docile. We're sort of really awake and totally fulfilled without anything. I find that just so beautiful. Yeah. In that section, you write, we never knew we needed so little to be happy. Exactly. Beautiful. Exactly. Because again, going back to cultural conditioning, that is not what most people believe.

1:13:32They believe they need things. Yeah. Right. They need a certain job title, a certain office, a certain salary. Yes. And listen, I'm saying this with compassion and sensitivity because I understand that there are people who are struggling to buy food to feed themselves. Okay, so that I also recognize at the same time. But I think for many people, let's say you've got enough to feed yourself and pay your mortgage and, you know, whatever that number is. I think a lot of people still think that happiness comes from something outside of themselves whereas this state of absorption or samadhi or flow I guess it teaches us that the happiness is already

1:14:20Henry Shukman:there yeah it's inside of us exactly and I'm realizing I mean I was really lucky when I was 12 years old I met this tramp an old kind of hobo type of person he used to come through to the valley where we lived in north of Oxford. And he was so different from everybody else I know. I knew. My parents were both professors at Oxford and I grew up in that very rational, privileged, middle-class world. And this guy, he was called Speedy. He'd wander into our valley every spring and put up in this ruined mill about a mile away from where our house was. And I got to know him. and he basically, he pretty much had nothing.

1:15:04Henry Shukman:He had two dogs, fishing lines, no rod, you know, and he lived off fishing and setting traps for rabbits and he'd go door to door when he needed to. But he used to, he said, he taught me a lot actually. It was over several summers I got to know him. But he would sit every day. He said he called it stopping still. And he would just sit, you know, in the woods somewhere. He'd just sit and be still. And he said, you know, people are running around like chickens with their heads cut off. They don't realize. They don't learn what they would learn if they just sat still. And some of that somehow landed in me, that he was a person who was at home everywhere.

1:15:54Henry Shukman:He lived in the countryside. he didn't live in a house but he had so little and he was alive in a way that was unlike anybody else I knew he was really alive I love hearing things like this because whenever you talk about things like this there's often there's often the socio-economic argument and if you look at the data for sure people in certain areas of the UK you know your life expectancy for example can be up to 10 years different if you're living in an area of low socioeconomic status compared to high right so this stuff is real for sure but when we think about happiness and well-being there is still a view that your financials hugely matter and I'm not saying they don't matter right just to be clear but I've also had the experience of every other summer as a child, we would go to India to Kolkata for six weeks, right?

1:16:58I have seen and been with people and chatted to them in India with very little who seem to have a joyful essence, who are happy. They sort of seem to get life. And I find that really inspiring to go, well, hold on a minute. We've again been culturally conditioned to think that we're going to get happiness when when this happens when we get the a-levels we get the job when we get the promotion oh when that happens we get this amount of followers or this amount of downloads oh yeah there it is it's like well hold on a minute um some people i've spoken to in india they don't have those things yet i would argue some of them

1:17:41Henry Shukman:are happier than most of us are yes right they've found the unconditional well-being yeah and that That is the key. That's what meditation is actually really for. So thank you for bringing that up. And I totally agree with you also not to discount the difficulties of being underneath a certain poverty line. You know, it's incredibly hard and we're not discounting that. But what if there's a well-being that we're missing in our pursuit of conditions, material conditions that we think we need? All kinds of conditions that we think we need. What if there's actually an unconditional as well? You know, unconditional okayness.

1:18:29Henry Shukman:And that's the inspiration that I find in what I traditionally thought of as a spiritual life. It's not based on the conditions of our lives. There's so much I want to go deeper into there. Before I do, let me just put my head into the mind of some of the listeners who might be thinking, this is all great, right? but how the hell do I get there? I think you know I've covered mindfulness on the show before you have your own unique way of describing it to be fair in original love but I think you know there may be an understanding of the importance of mindfulness the importance of support the first two ends but this kind of flow state that we can experience in meditation if someone has never experienced that before and are thinking yeah that sounds great i want some of it how do they get it yeah well uh you know i'd i'd i'd have to say um just keep doing your meditation and it starts to come on yeah you know and like you know that our app is is actually trying to help people find that you know it's very much trust the process right it is it show up for the daily meditation and you will find at some point that these states start to appear.

1:20:00Henry Shukman:Yeah, exactly. And it's sort of like, I would say to somebody who's not quite sure what we're talking about, I would say, think of a time when suddenly you just felt really good and there was a shift and you don't know why it happened. But it wasn't to do with accomplishment or it wasn't to do with something you were actively doing. It just sort of came on by itself. And you felt somehow life was smooth and easy and rich and fulfilling and time didn't seem to matter so much. If you think of something like those little magical moments that I think everybody will have had some taste of, even if it was only in childhood, that some sense of a kind of spell fell on you and everything seems okay.

1:20:54Henry Shukman:That's what this is like. And the activity of non-activity, the time set aside for meditation of just not doing will attract that. It's almost more like a magnet. We're not trying to grab it. We're just, by virtue of making space for just being in our lives, we attract it. It just comes on unpredictably by itself at times. And so it's a fairly, I want to say, you know, we can just about promise it. we can just about promise it that if you do keep doing this thing regularly, consistently, you'll start to get a taste of it. And one of the things I believe happens with people is that because they're so busy doing all the time and not tending to their internal world, if they ever stop doing, all the stuff that they haven't processed starts to come out.

1:22:05So because they're scared of that, they just shut it down and stay busy again. No, no, no, no. Do the practice. Meditate daily. Let it all come up. Let it all come up. And maybe once you've almost burnt it out, you'll experience the calm and presence that was sitting there all along.

1:22:22Henry Shukman:Yeah, I believe that's a great way to look at it. And then if you're doing it regularly, you're processing the daily stuff that's come up. So you're sort of keeping ahead of it. I think that's why the consistency is so important. But I think that's exactly how we are. You know, if you've done, let's say you've been for a long drive, you know, and you put your head on the pillow at night, close your eyes, you see how you see the road. Yeah. You know, it's sort of like that. We're busy in our days. So, of course, when we stop, we're processing what we've been doing. You know, and when people come to a retreat, you go to a retreat, first day, you're dealing with your life.

1:23:02Henry Shukman:Recent life. And then sometimes old life stuff comes up as well. But you're letting, actually it's so healthy, you're just being, you're letting this stuff, you're sort of letting your mind digest your life. And all this stuff comes up and you just let it move on. And that's how we settle down. That's what settling down actually means for me, is letting all the stuff that's been going on in my life just process itself and release, you know. then we find this deeper layers of calm and clarity and fulfillment yeah there's so much more about absorption i want to talk to you about cohen's and the importance of beauty maybe i'll just park those for a moment because i want to make sure we have time for the fourth innings uh awakening and what's really interesting to me and i know you talk about it you write about this in the book is that these first three innings, mindfulness, support, and absorption are still all done under the realm where we still have a self, right?

1:24:13And I guess, you know, for people who are new to meditation, maybe just start there, right? Maybe you don't need to come to this point, right? But this is what I'm really, really interested in. So I want to go in here, if that's okay into in four. This idea where the first three are great, but there's still this idea that we have an identity, that is a self. Whereas in four, there's a loss of self, isn't there? So I don't know how you want to tackle this, but can you explain to us what is this fourth in of awakening?

1:24:47Henry Shukman:It's a difficult thing to talk about, actually, because it's a discovery that we can each make about who we really are, who we've been all along. And it may sound weird. It may not make a lot of sense to hear about it. And on the other hand, there may be people who hear about it and think, oh my gosh, that's what that was. Some moment I had as a kid that I've never forgotten. Some moment I had as a youth that I've never forgotten when it was as if I discovered that I wasn't separate from the world I live in, that my sense of being me contained within my skin, that I inhabit this body that I think of as mine, and what I am is something within this body, some little core nugget or core that's me, that I know so well.

1:25:50Henry Shukman:I've been with it as long as I can remember. But suddenly it was as if that wasn't there, that wasn't here. And instead, I was part of everything. It's a sudden glimpse of a different way of experiencing ourselves in this world. I don't think I've ever covered non-duality on the podcast to date. So perhaps the best way to start this is with you describing what happened to you when you were backpacking at 19. I don't know, what do you think? Yeah, I think so too. I think it's probably easier to get it if I try to describe it. So as I said, I'd grown up in Oxford. I had this terrible eczema. I went away when I was 18, 19 on a gap year.

1:26:45Henry Shukman:And I worked actually in South America. I worked on a ranch for several months. That was through my dad. Somebody in his college was from Argentina and I worked there. And then I backpacked. And towards the end of the trip, I was alone on a beach. And I was, it really was, it was an empty, deserted beach. And I was just looking at the sun going down over the water. It was incredibly beautiful, you know. And I was studying the water and the light on the water. and I was just standing there very absorbed in this beautiful scene with nobody around, real profound solitude. It was just so beautiful.

1:27:26And suddenly it was as if I wasn't looking at the scene in front of me.

1:27:36Henry Shukman:I was part of it. It was as if the me that could look at the world and see it as separate just switched off. And somehow I discovered, it felt like a discovery, that I had always been part of everything. I wasn't a separate observer. The sense of being the separate me who is moving through the world as a separate entity. That separateness just switched off. And in its place was a sense of total belonging. Just being part of everything without exception. And it felt like, in a certain way, really, it felt like I was part of the whole universe. And I'd never not been. And it wasn't an idea. It was a palpable sensation.

1:28:48Henry Shukman:It was as if I could, it really felt for a moment as if my fingertips were reached to the end of the universe. The tip of my nose was pressing against the beginning of time and the end of time. It was as if what I really was and always had been was part of everything. Is the term out-of-body experience relevant here or is it almost too reductionist? Yeah, I mean, to me, out of body suggests that, you know, when people describe NDEs, where they're sort of up, looking down, they can see their body. I think it was totally different, actually, because it wasn't the, here's my body, I've left it. It was the, here's my body, it's everything.

1:29:46Henry Shukman:Or the, my true body is everything. That's what it felt like. But the me, when I say my true body, it didn't feel like mine in the way that I normally knew the sense of me. That felt like what I really was, was everything, part of everything. And it was very, I don't mean to say like I was huge or something. No, it wasn't sort of... Was it almost like you just blended in with everything? you were just yes it's more like that it's more like it's more like the boundary between me and the world was gone these non-dual experiences okay are words inherently limiting in our attempt to describe it yes it's an unfortunate thing it can't do it because some people i'm They're just to sort of play, not devil's advocate, really, but for, I guess there'll be some people listening, Henry, who are on board with the benefits of meditation and totally get those first three ends, because of course, they're all predicated on this assumption that there is a self, right?

1:31:08So how do I improve the self? How do I improve myself? yeah I get better at mindfulness and noticing my experiences and my feelings and my mind I make sure I reach out for support that it's not just me like everything I do is dependent on other people and other things and then can I reach flow states yeah I can reach flow state and my favorite passion but yeah I can also perhaps if I meditate enough without expectation and I follow the process. Maybe at some point I'll start to experience this intrinsic flow state that doesn't need me to be doing anything. I reckon for those interested in meditation, they're naturally going to be on board with that.

1:31:56Right. I think now going into the fourth end, awakening. Now I'm on board to be clear. I'm trying to put myself in the mind as someone who's going, hold on a minute. I get the first three. I'm interested in those three. What the hell is this that you're talking about, about awakening, that there's no boundary to my skin, that I'm part of everything?

1:32:20Henry Shukman:Yeah. And you must get this a lot, right? I do, I do, I do. I mean, I feel the problem here is very real, that it doesn't make, it only makes sense once we've had a glimpse of it. Yeah. It's difficult to make it make sense through cognitively just thinking about it and conceptually. But there's a few ways we can try a little bit conceptually. One is, I mean, just right now, you know, being aware that, you know, wherever you happen to be, you know, we two, we're sitting in this room, we're seeing one another. There's the walls, there's, you know, lights, a mic stand, this beautiful, very beautiful, actually, table between us.

1:33:05Henry Shukman:all of this is arising for each of us in an awareness right all of it is contents in an awareness that maybe that can that makes a kind of sense right you know so so so what is that awareness and how big is that awareness and where does it end where does it begin the awareness is actually really hard to put dimensions on the awareness itself we can put dimensions on the wall on the space between us but the awareness itself within which this whole experience of this room and this conversation within which it's arising the awareness that's hosting this, it's impossible to know how big it is. It's impossible to know where it begins and ends.

1:34:02Is this, you know, put through another lens, you know, who is the seer? Who is the person that's experiencing the table? Like, you know, when you get that separation in meditation, you know, and let's say, let's say you're feeling anxious, okay, and you think the entirety of you is anxiety. But a meditation or some practice where you just separate and go, no, no, but who is it that's experiencing the anxiety?

1:34:31Henry Shukman:Yes. You just start to open up a crack of separation. Yes. Something I think about a lot is, well, I don't know how old I was, how many days old I was when my parents gave me the name Rangan. I can't remember. I know, for example, in some Indian cultures, there's a naming ceremony at day six. So day six is when you're given your name officially, right? Yes, yes. So then if you just play this out, let's say I was given the name Rangan at day six from my birth. well, who the hell was I for the first six days? Right? Because I wasn't Rangan then, because I hadn't been given that name. So there was an awareness.

1:35:21Yes. There was an essence of who I was that existed before I was called Rangan. Exactly. Is this in the same realm as non-duality? Or is this something completely different? No, it is. It is.

1:35:34Henry Shukman:I mean, and whoever that was, those first five days, what's happened to him? Is he still here? if it's he even is that not still here somehow you know is there like if i if you think back to a childhood experience being on the beach age seven or something you know the water the sounds the smells sun lotion sand you know um what was that was is there something that was there then which is here right now is there some sort of essence of you of awareness of beingness of aliveness that was absolutely present then and is exactly present also now isn't there something you know that who you were before you had a name is still here now and what is that is it possible that it just doesn't do time yeah and it doesn't even do space it's without dimension it's without time isn't it possible yeah that there's something already always here.

1:36:58Yeah, of course.

1:37:00Henry Shukman:Right. Okay, so that's coming at what we mean by this exactly. It's a very dry term, non-duality. It doesn't convey how heartwarming and beautiful and intimate and close this actually is. Where did that term come from, non-duality? Well, I think actually it might be India because there's the term advaita. Right. Non-tu, non-dual, advaita. And so there's Advaita Vedanta is an ancient Hindu school of practice around this. And that's what, when, like the word Buddhism actually means awakening-ism. The word Buddha means awakened. And it's the heart of what some say Buddhism is really about. Buddhism is not, some would say it's not really a religion, it's a practice.

1:37:50Henry Shukman:But the heart of the term Buddha awakened or awakening is to wake up to, I'd say, wake back up to reality that's been here all along. Would you say that people who have experienced this non-dual state, and what was really interesting about your experience at 19 is that you weren't a meditator then. You weren't trying to attain in number four on the path up the mountain. You'd rest on your gap year, having fun, traveling, backpacking around, watching the sunset, and then boom, you've experienced something, right? Yes. Yes. Which I think is also quite interesting because you, on your app and in your book, offer a path that we can follow.

1:38:37Yes. And if we follow that path, at some point we may get an awakening. We may be more open to seeing an awakening. Yes. But you got one without doing any of that.

1:38:47Henry Shukman:Well, I know. But I then found, and then I was really unhappy afterwards. Like a few weeks later, I went back home. Because you didn't understand it. I didn't understand it. And also when I went home, I was open for the first time in my life, wide open. And all the difficulty, challenges, unhappiness in my childhood, I couldn't help but feel them. In my childhood, I'd done my best not to feel the challenges of my childhood because I felt they were overwhelming. So it almost cracked you open. It cracked me open. So when I went home, I was swamped by childhood unhappiness. that I'd never really let myself feel before.

1:39:28Henry Shukman:And you needed therapy, didn't you, for this? I did. You saw therapists who helped you. Yeah, but later, I mean, I struggled for several years. And then I started meditating. And then I found a therapist. And I was very, very lucky to be able to do that. But the point, just coming back to the, it's unconditional. That awakening, you can't create it through conditions, but you can make it more likely. And so any path of meditation that knows about that, acknowledges it and is open to it, can create the condition where it's more likely to happen, but it can't make it happen. But at the same time, the beauty of it is it's kind of a law unto itself.

1:40:21Henry Shukman:It doesn't, like in my case, as you said, I wasn't practicing, but it showed itself. But only when I started to practice was there any chance of learning to integrate it into how I live. So it wasn't a flash in the pan. And what happened with me on my own meditation path, this is why I'm trying to share this with others, you know, is that I started out meditating and it was incredibly therapeutic and healing and so helpful for me. and at a certain point I was like well what about that thing that happened on the beach when I was 19 it had seemed the most important moment of my life because I saw something about what my life really was that I'd never seen in any other way in any other context and nobody seemed to sort of talk about it and then the reason I got into zen is that um I recognized I met somebody who did Zen, actually.

1:41:18Henry Shukman:It was quite popular, you know, in America. And I was working on my third book at the time and I was in, I'd gone to New Mexico and a new friend of mine, a great writer called Natalie Goldberg, she started reading some Zen stuff to me. And I just recognized, oh my gosh, these people know what happened to me on the beach. They know about it. And so I got into Zen and sure enough, they totally knew about it and they actually valued it they recognized how important it was and through training you know a lot a long time in zen i actually met well i was very lucky and some fantastic teachers who who'd gone even beyond it they knew about it and and i and i had a i had some more experiences, not the same, but same territory, other kinds of non-dual experiences.

1:42:16Henry Shukman:I hadn't known it could show up in different ways. The one that I had where everything's just one and I'm part of that oneness, that's one way it could show up. Another way it could show up is in a way there's nobody here. It's all happening by itself. I wonder if regularly spending time in nature and experiencing awe perhaps could help with this in the sense that, you know, if you are somewhere incredibly awe-inspiring in nature, and you really, you know, you're not distracted, and you're not sort of doing something else, if you actually think about it, and you know, it is a wonder that this sort of beauty exists, and we're even here on this vast, incredible planet.

1:43:02Henry Shukman:I mean, it's, you know, it really is. I think beauty can be a way in. And actually, that's why I believe the third in that we were just talking about, flow and absorption, this isn't always pointed out about it, but it's a lot of beauty we sense in the third in. in somehow you know again somebody on a mountain bike totally absorbed in it suddenly getting into flow it's beautiful it's really beautiful and that that beauty can actually serve as a gateway to non-dual experience where we're overwhelmed by the wonder yeah i agree with you oh that was in that third end section in the book one of my favorite bits was the stuff about beauty there was one section in terms of beauty in a sick room you say in any moment we can find what we need i thought that's lovely in any moment and you actually illustrated that point from recollection with a mum whose child was quite sick yes she's the child was in a lot of trouble with you know addiction issues and yeah she was watching waves on a beach she described this to be so beautifully.

1:44:18Henry Shukman:I wanted to share that, you know. She was just watching these waves in the evening, coming up the beach, withdrawing, coming up, withdrawing. And suddenly she noticed how beautiful it was. And then she realized she could feel the beauty at the same time as feeling all her sorrow and worry about her child who was in such a hard, dark place. She could feel the the tremendous parents' grief and caring for their child who's in trouble, and also the beauty of the scene before her. And then she suddenly realized that both the beauty and what she felt about the beauty she was seeing and the worry, they were like notes in a single experience and even the worry was beautiful so this is really interesting okay so the appreciation of the deep beauty in the ocean and the waves it didn't make her child not be struggling with addiction Correct.

1:45:38But it changed her experience of how she related to her child struggling with addiction.

1:45:46Henry Shukman:Exactly. She could see that there was even a beauty in that. When you can't change a situation, you're forced to change yourself. Exactly. Exactly. And she made that little shift that's so huge. to a bigger perspective. Do you think sometimes, you know, surfers might experience these kind of states in the sense, I'm not talking about flow necessarily. Surfing's front of mind because I've just been in Australia and I would just sit on the beach and watch these tribes of surfers just go. And I thought it was the most beautiful thing. There must be some sort of deep connection, not just flow state but that you're you're you're literally riding on this wave that has no end it goes probably you know if you follow that body of water goes all the way around the world doesn't it yeah yeah i mean i think actually i used to i used to teach a zen to a group of surfers in southern california pre-covid right they were fantastic at meditating and they were so into it because they were that bit closer to getting this non-dual message.

1:47:03Henry Shukman:Because I think exactly what you're describing, that you're riding this body of water that's doing this particular energetic thing of the wave and that's your motion. Your motion is the wave's motion. And actually just with the wave thing, one of the old metaphors in several spiritual traditions to get this non-duality idea is exactly a wave. A wave, if a wave, as it were, thought it was its own thing, this little shape of water, this is me, and didn't recognize it's part of the whole ocean. That's very like non-duality. In other words, our sense of me, I think I'm just this body. I don't see that my little cup of consciousness here is part of the great ocean of consciousness.

1:48:04It's like that.

1:48:05Henry Shukman:So we're not denying this consciousness, but the ego says it's mine. And it doesn't know how to recognize, actually, it's part of a vastness, a boundlessness. it's part of it and yes it's made this shape called Henry or Rungan you know each of us it's made this being that seems to be its own thing but in non-duality we recognize the great ocean that has formed into this wave we recognize the great ocean so that's why the term non-duality does not convey how beautiful how mind-blowingly beautiful it is. Because when we find that, all our, maybe just for a moment, all our worries are gone. Because they all came from the conviction that we were just the wave, not the whole ocean.

1:49:15Henry Shukman:That's why it's so important. I think it's the most important thing. because when we find it we find what our life has been all along we actually find something that feels like the truth relating that to health for a moment or you know traditional health as it were because you know it's kind of interesting we have this conversation i've said for years this is not a health podcast it may seem like a health podcast but it isn't because health is everything you know health isn't just in the realms of health health is related to happiness health is related to your relationships health is related to how you feel about yourself and your ability to interact with the world in a loving and kind way one of the problems i've always had with western allopathic medicine of all the benefits i would say it's way too reductionist everything is kept separate separate body parts, separate diseases.

1:50:18It literally makes no sense at all to me. And it actually makes no sense scientifically or physiologically. Everything in the body is connected. But bringing it back to you, and you had this chronic debilitating eczema, and not necessarily a non-dual experience, but meditating per se, helped you to heal your eczema. Is that correct? It is. I believe that really. Yeah, and I've seen that and similar patterns before in patients. So I'm really interested, yes, on the path to meditation, on those first three ends for sure, but let's just go that final step. For people who do experience a non-jul, I just don't like that term, non-jul experience, but this kind of awakening experience.

1:51:09I like awakening. and if they have the tools to integrate it into their life as you did not when you were 19 but you do now do you see that people often seen improvement in their health and their well-being

1:51:28Henry Shukman:as well i do actually i do because there's so much less stress and and and they've they've learned they've discovered an unconditional well-being. Therefore, whatever they're doing is a choice, a choosing to do it. And typically they reorient more to lives of service. You know, it's more important to them that what they be doing is of service to others. and that also brings fulfillment so they're just they're just happier and and yeah of course they'll still get diseases as they get older you know and and they'll still get flu now and then but handling it in a way that's much easier that doesn't put additional stress on the system I think it makes a big difference.

1:52:32Yeah.

1:52:32Henry Shukman:One thing that going deeper into non-duality, allowing non-duality to be more part of our experience, it actually changes our relationship with death. We don't think about death in the same way. It's actually, it's almost like it's part of life. Death is part of life. It's not something to be afraid of. It's already here. And here we are. So I think that's one of its beautiful consequences. We know when we've really sort of got it, because fear of death has gone. A fear of life has gone. And we can't be afraid of it. Fear is gone. In fact, there's a zendo, a Zen center that I've sat in in Japan for retreats a number of times where one of my Zen masters lives.

1:53:38Henry Shukman:And it has this calligraphy above the altar at the end of the room, which says, what are those? I don't read characters, you know, what do they mean? Bringing no fear. Bringing no fear. and I find that a beautiful a beautiful kind of motto for life what if we could get to a place where we're we're just not afraid fear has gone and I think the most profound way for me for finding that has been this kind of opening more and more deeply to the reality of being not the wave, the ocean or not just the wave but the whole ocean to being part of the whole ocean of existence and not separate because if I'm not separate there's nobody to be afraid yeah I love that Henry so beautiful and I guess on my own in a journey, spiritual journey, if you will, probably since dad died, I realized that somewhere along the way, my fear of death has evaporated.

1:54:59I can't pinpoint an exact moment. There wasn't like, oh, this happened. There wasn't this linear thing. Oh, I did this. And then the fear has gone. No, just as part of, it's a bit like this whole thing, right? You follow the process. Okay. you follow the daily practice of meditation and you'll find there's a whole variety of different outcomes that will just happen as a consequence not by focusing on the outcome but by focusing on the process Henry yeah I think original love is just a beautiful book it's so well written it does provide this lovely framework on what we might be able to experience as we meditate more and more.

1:55:45I think the Way app is brilliant. I can see why it's so popular. I'm enjoying it. I love the fact that there's no choice that you just turn up and it makes it easy. This is what you have to do today. It's a fantastic idea. I think it's brilliant. I've thoroughly enjoyed my conversation with you. I certainly hope we get the chance to do a part two at some point. But just to finish off, for that person who has made it this far, who's listened to the conversation and feels that, yeah, you know what? Meditation, I think is what I need right now. And perhaps the fourth stage of awakening feels too far just at the moment, but they're thinking, yeah, I want a bit of mindfulness.

1:56:30I want support. I want that flow state from meditation. but I don't know where to start what would your final words be to them? Yeah, well I don't want to be self-serving

1:56:43Henry Shukman:but the Way app is a great way to get into it because it lays it out for you so you don't have to choose so that's one option and there's a ton of other great apps Headspace, Calm, they'll help as well But the biggest thing is just give yourself five minutes alone with yourself, being still, being quiet. If you don't even want to touch an app, fine. Just sit down alone for five minutes. Just see what it's like. Can you let yourself be still and quiet? Just be. Just be you. Because all you're doing is coming home to you. It's not some grand thing that you've got to get, you've got to do, really.

1:57:45Henry Shukman:It's coming home to you. Can you just give yourself that? One minute a day. If you can't do five, do one. Henry Schuchman it's been an absolute pleasure thank you so much for coming on the show thank you very very much for having me a delight and a real honour

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2:00:29Thank you.