How To Have More Meaningful & Intimate Relationships: A Fresh Approach That Really Works with Terry Real #679

36:13When we step into power, we break connection. And I call that individual empowerment, which this culture is saturated in. Individual therapists, 12-step sponsors. I was weak, now I'm strong, go screw yourself. I found my power, I found my voice. Oh, you go get them. No, that's not, no. Relational empowerment, which I have to teach, it's brand new. I was weak, now I'm strong. I'm going to stand toe-to-toe with you, Vid. I'm going to tell you what it is I want. But we're a team. I love you. You love me. How about it? Can we work on this together? We're a team. I love you. And listen to this one.

36:54Your partner says, okay, I'm going to work on, let's say, being less critical. Here's your next line. I really appreciate that. Is there anything I can say or do that would help support you in that? Who the hell sounds like that in this culture? We're a team. Let's work together. so there's a ton of disempowerment in this culture i'm walking around on eggshells don't set daddy off there's a ton of individual empowerment which i really think is grandiose uh i i am woman hear me roar my therapist says i should get speak up so you're an asshole no no honey no relational empowerment let's work together we're a team this is what i want How can I have to give it to me?

37:37Whole new world. Loving, I have a name for this. I have a name for everything. Loving power. Soft power. How to stand up for yourself and cherish your partner at the same time. Hey, Rangan, I love you. You love me. Here's the deal. I think that you can speak harshly to the kids. I know you don't think so. But I do, and I get bothered by it. Look, hon, as a favor to me, could you, this isn't the real you, obviously, could you please tone it down? And if I am bothered by the way you're speaking to the kid, can I just say like, hey, honey, let's have a signal. And you hear that, you don't argue with me.

38:22Either take yourself offline and let me do it or calm down and say it softer. Can we have a deal on that, hon? And, okay, can I give you something or help you actually follow through with that? That's working like a team. We have very little idea of how to do that in this culture. There's just so many places to go, right? Because the first thing that came to mind was that if we are, as you're saying, living in a patriarchal culture, I'm not saying we're not, I mean, just for the point of this conversation, right? I imagine then the consequences that if, let's say, a heterosexual couple who've been married for 20, 30 years, they come into your office for help.

39:12And I imagine if there is a super masculine man, at least, well, traditional masculine man, I should say, coming in, right? And you say to display this kind of softness and this kind of... Vulnerability. Yeah. I imagine that it's not just a straightforward conversation where they go, Oh yeah, okay, Terry, that sounds great. Let me go ahead and do that. I imagine there's a bit of pushback, right? So how do you persuade or inspire that person to actually go there? Because that may be quite a foreign thing for them. And they may be in their 50s or 60s. and this may be the first time anyone's ever said stuff like this to them.

39:56Yeah. So I'm going to do big picture and then I'll zero in. Big picture. My friend, it's in your interest to come down off your high perch and join the human race and open your heart and learn how to be loved and loved. It's in your interest. You'll live longer. your body will live 10 years longer, your partner will be happier, perhaps will shoot for it even sexier, and you won't damage your children. Stay up there, you're going to have a miserable partner, you're going to have a cold relationship, and you're going to damage your kids the way you were damaged. You know, one of the ways I hook these grandiose guys is I teach my students, is a simple sequence of questions.

40:52Ready? What kind of father did you have? What's your relationship like with him? What kind of father do you want to be? What do you want to pass on to your children? Are you doing that? And if you're not, will you let me help you do it better? A lot of these men who won't, it's the hard work, what I call relational recovery, recovering that state of connection. and it's not easy. They won't do it for themselves. I'm okay, I'm fine. They won't do it for their partners. Ah, she's a bitch. But they will do it for their children. Do you realize that you've become your father in this marriage? What do you think that's like for your children?

41:35I can help you stop this. Please, this is not the best of you. Let me help you. Who says no to that? No one. They don't say no. They say, okay, what do I do? It's so interesting hearing that because I would say, one of the drives for me to, how can I put it, excavate my inner world and make peace with certain things internally, one of the drives for me was having children. When I realized that, oh, wrong, and if, you know, you can either tell them not to do something, but if they're just repeating what they see you doing, maybe I should just sort it out myself so they no longer have that as a model right and blessing to you my friend hold the phone i want everybody to hear that say that again say your process again because this is the inner workings of a good man i need to sort myself out because what i'm going to give to my kids is not what comes out of my mouth is going to be what they see me do.

42:42That is blessed. I'm sorry, but I have to underline this. I say the best gift you can give your kids is your own recovery. The best gift you can give your kids is your own health. They don't give a shit what you say. They live with you. They learn what they live. So your realization, I've got to clean myself out so I can be the best father I can be to these kids. That's blessed, right? That's sacred work. What's it like to hear me say that, may I ask?

43:21It's made me quite emotional, actually, hearing that. I can feel that. Listen, this is where Terry says, take a minute and let yourself feel that. Breathe. Let the feelings come. It's stuff that I cognitively know, and this work has been going on for many years. I think for me, the whole process of stopping looking outwards and starting to look inwards started when my father died in 2013.

43:51I used to, for the first half of my life, I would say probably until I started that journey inwards, I was very much driven by external validation. That has mostly gone. I would say over the last few years, I'm just not. External validation just doesn't do it for me. The most important thing that matters, to me at least, is that I can look in the mirror before I go to bed and go, yeah, I'm happy with how you behave today. You lived in alignment with your values today Because actually the thing is, if I can do that, my relationships in many ways, or many aspects of my relationship, kind of take care of themselves.

44:38So if we take it back to intimate relationships that people struggle with, I guess the principle there is that, to a certain degree, you have to know yourself and know your triggers. if you're going to be able to show up in the way that you want to in your relationship, right? Well, so I have 8 million sayings and here's one of them. We all marry our unfinished business. So we all mystically wind up with partners who are exquisitely designed to trigger us. Falling in love is, oh, this person is going to heal all my childhood wounds and complete me and at least we're going to avoid all that bullshit.

45:26Yeah, well, real marriage is the day you realize not only is this person going to avoid it or make up for it, but they're re-injuring me in that same, I'm back in the soup that I was in when I was a kid. And when we get trauma triggered that way, which is virtually inevitable in intimate romantic relationships, my friend Gabor Mate says, in relationships, you don't see the wound, you see the scar. So for the people witnessing this podcast, in RLT we talk about three parts of you. The first question I ask myself when I'm sitting with a couple is not, what are the stressors? A good couple can handle stress.

46:12That's not even what's the dynamic. You know, she pursues, he distances, he distances. It's not even the loop. Important. most important question which part of you am I speaking to? May I ask how old you are? 48. Am I speaking to the 48 year old Rangan? Or are we witnessing the tantrum of the 4 year old Rangan? Who's up right now? There are three parts. It is in some ways analogous to IFS. There's the wounded child part limbic system, very very young just all feeling, the part of you that received the abuse or neglect. There's what I call the wise adult, prefrontal cortex, the thinking, observing part of you that can stop and choose.

47:03And then there's the part that almost all of my clients have lived most of their lives in, thinking that it's a wise adult and they're wrong. I call it the adaptive child part. Fight, flight, fawn. This is knee-jerk survival. Fight, flight, fawn, which as an adult becomes fixed. Fawn is, you know, oh, lion, let me lick your paw so you don't eat me. This is the codependent enabler. I'm going to fix it and make it all better. That is what we call your adaptor. That's what you learned at three, four, five years old. That's your coping strategy. That's what you needed to do back then. but you don't need it now and you bring that adaptive child into your relationship and it makes a mess of things.

47:52May I tell you a story? Of course. Okay. So, you know, a couple on the brink of divorce. Why? He's a liar. Lies about everything. The wife says, tell him he's got nice shoes on. I'll tell you they're sneakers. I mean, and you walk in and you go, the sky's blue. He goes, well, it's kind of gray. So I teach my students, listen to the report. He lies about everything. Watch what he does in front of you. He evades me. Okay, I got him. He's got a black belt in evasion. Okay, that's his adaptive child. Next question, who was he evading? Right? There's always somebody on the, the adaptive child's adapting to someone.

48:35It's done in a relationship. So I say to him, who tried to control you growing up? Brilliant, if you don't, but we teach people to think like this. You're on this side of the sea soul. Who's on the other side? Who tried to control you? Sure enough, my dad. It's a true story. Military, how I ate, how I sat, what courses I took, what friends I had. How did you deal with this controlling father? He smiled. That's resistance. That's health. That's smiles. And he says, ready? I lied. Brilliant. Dad said, don't play with Henry. I played with Henry, and I came home and told him I played with John. Brilliant little boy.

49:17Well done. But I have a saying, adaptive then, maladaptive now. You're not that five-year-old. Your wife is not your father. Time for this old dog to learn some new tricks. That was it. He came back two weeks later, hand in hand, all smiles. They said, we're done, we're cured. And they were. The cures are the ones I tell you about. They were. Okay, there's a story here, I say. Yes. over the weekend, wife sends him to the grocery store to get 12 things. True to form, he comes back with 11. The wife says, where's the pumpernickel? I want you to feel this. This is what my wife Belinda calls a moment of relational heroism.

50:00He said, every muscle and nerve in my body was screaming to cover my ass and say to her they were out of the pumpernickel, which is not true. He forgot it. I wanted to say that. And in this one moment, I took a breath. I thought of you, Terry. We can lend each other our prefrontal cortex. I thought of you. I looked my wife in the eye, and I said, I forgot the damn pumpernickel. True story. She burst into tears. And she said, I've been waiting for this moment for 25 years. Wow. That's recovery. moving beyond your automatic adaptive child's response into something thoughtful, observant, choiceful.

50:49You know, you mentioned meditation. I have a great friend, Thomas Ubel, a wonderful spiritual teacher. He says to observe is to have choice because the part of our brain that can observe is the same part that can choose. That's the first skill, coming out of the automatic knee-jerk into something thoughtful. It's just so simple when you get it, right? It's not when you're in it and you don't realize that this adaptive child inside of you is running the show. And then it makes me think of what you said earlier on, Terry, that, you know, man or woman, whoever, you've been out working all day, right?

51:31And then you just want to come home and chill. but actually if you do have a romantic partner or someone you live with or children there well you got to be careful because if you've given the best to your work and you are spent and have nothing left it's not going to be the wise adult who walks into the house it's likely to be the adaptive child so that when a trivial request comes in you fly off the handle but then And that also then speaks to the problems in culture, right? Because we do have a capitalist culture. I agree one of the great things of the 20th century has been the empowerment of women.

52:16And because of the way economics work at the moment for many people, two parents are often having to work. They've often moved away from their family structures and their tribe. And so it's quite a big ask, isn't it? To go out, work all day, feel tired, and then also bring your best self to your house in the evening. I think for many people, that's going to sound like quite a tough ask. Yeah, I have two words to respond to that. You ready? Tough shit. I hope that's not too technical. Listen, I work with people, particularly men. Men have a harder time because we've had that centuries of entitlement.

53:03We were the breadwinners, so we go home and get taken care of. I work with a lot of men about what I call learning to become a family man. And it's good for us. This is what I mean when I say I get these guys who are one up to come down by helping them realize that it's good for them to come down. It's good for them to open their hearts and let themselves be loved. It's good for you to stretch and learn to be a family man. Now, this is what I mean. I start this way. And I'm talking to you exactly the way I would talk to a client. Research is clear. I think this is so great. If you get a gift, you will be happier than before you got it, and it will last a certain amount of time.

53:49If you give a gift, you'll be happier than you are if you get one, and the happiness lasts longer. Giving actually creates more happiness than getting. We may have lost this. So I talk about the joy of going beyond your comfort zone. shaking yourself out of your gratification and showing up for your family i always tell this story if i may it's great so belinda's got a full-time practice she's a brilliant therapist she doesn't write books but she's not sitting around eating bonbons it's three o 'clock in the morning my now 30 year old my kids in their 30s were babies and i get this boom boom boom boom boom, boom, you know, at 3 a.m.

54:35Hey, one of the kids is crying, go feed them. And I go, I know you were up with them three days running, but honey, I got to talk at the Harvard Couples Conference tomorrow. I got 1 ,000 therapists in that room. You do it tonight, and I'll do it for the rest of the weekend, but I got to be in shape. And my wife, 30 years ago, said one phrase that changed my life. You ready? Here's what she said. She looked at me with a smile, and she said, give the lecture tired. Go feed the kids. And that rousing myself out of my, I'm a performer. Okay, stretch a little, go give. That's learning to be a family man.

55:25And it's good for your soul. It's good for you. And it's a good thing to teach your children. I love how direct you were there when you said initially, you know, well, you know, tough luck. You just got to get on with it. that if you want a good quality home life, that's what you got to do. If you don't, fine. But if you actually want that, you just got to find a way. I mean, I know there are a lot of tips and tricks. One of my really good friends who's a GP, he's realized that actually a transition between being at the practice and home is very useful. So he doesn't live far away from his house, but when he gets to his house in his drive, he'll just sit there for two or three minutes.

56:10I can't remember exactly what it is he does, but there's some form of just transitional practice so that he's in a different state when he walks through that door. And I kind of feel that working from home for many people has caused an issue here because, you know, if you used to have that commute between the office at home, you might have wound down a little bit, switched off from work, got yourself in the right state. So I think that's something that I observed there listening to that. But also, the theme of directness, right? You were direct with me when I asked the question, you know, many people are going to find that hard.

56:46Your wife, Belinda, was direct with you when she wanted you to feed the kids in the middle of the night. And it reminds me of something in this new book of yours, right? Well, it's not that new anymore, but it's your latest book. In it, you talk about three steps to getting what you want. Number one, dare to rock the boat. Number two, once your partner is listening, help them out. Three, when they start to give you what you want, reward them, right? But it sounds as though what you're just talking about there, what Belinda said to you, was kind of, in many ways, dare to rock the boat, right? Don't just passively accept it.

57:25this is that theme isn't there of equalness right it's not about rolling over it's you know it's that beautiful term you you write about fierce intimacy isn't it it's kind of like it's not caring and loving necessarily to suppress your needs and actually say what you want to say right the beauty is look yes i i wrote the audiobook fierce intimacy and what i say is we need to take each other on. We stop taking each other on. We say we're accepting, but we're really settling and resenting, and then things go to rot. We don't take each other on in our marriages. We do in the beginning, but we stop.

58:15On the other hand, the reason why we don't take each other on is because when we do, it doesn't go very well. So we back off to keep the peace. But instead of that, I would like you to master skills so that when you do take each other on, you do it more skillfully and you have a chance at actually doing it. If Belinda had said, you're a son of a bitch, you're so selfish, all you care about is yourself, I don't know that I would have gotten up. But for Belinda to say, give the lecture tired i'm tired sweetheart go be with the kids with firmness but cherishing in the same breath that's brand new for our culture and yes that i responded to yeah it's what i call loving power soft power and it goes beyond patriarchy yeah under patriarchy when you step into power you're harsh but you don't have to be i teach people how to be cherishing of their partner and assertive in the same breath.

59:16You love me. I don't like this. As a favor to me, could you do it this way instead of that way? Let me help you do that. Yeah. That is a whole new world. Yeah. Let's just park getting into the skill of repair for just a moment. I just want to finish off, for this conversation at least, on the adapted child, okay? So this idea that usually when we fall out with our partner or things don't go so well, it's because the adaptive child is in charge, right? It's not the wise adults, okay? Right, and your adaptive child invites their adaptive child and then the two of you are off. I like to say, your adaptive children are fighting.

59:58The two of you can sit down and have a beer. You're not even there anymore. Your adaptive children are running the show and fighting the fight without you. Is it not true, therefore, that all it takes is one of you to stay in wise adult mode, even if your partner has lost it and gone into adaptive child mode and perhaps is not talking to you the way that you might want to be spoken to, you actually can still help influence that situation by not reacting and recognizing that at the moment, my wife is actually eight years old. That's who's talking to me. Would you, is that fair to say?

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1:02:19The way it normally works is one of you gets triggered, moves into your adaptive child, fight, flight, or fawn. That triggers the other one. They move into their adaptive child and fight back or distance or whatever they whatever the knee jerk is and then those two moves feed off of each other it's a vicious circle the more the more the classic is the more she pursues the more he distances the more he distances the more she pursues so it feeds on itself how to intervene one person changing the dance that breaks the pattern do they get what they want depends on the day and i talk about detachment from outcome that's from 12 step and relational integrity relational integrity is this one of my eight million sayings is this in intimate relationships everybody gets to go crazy but you have to take turns so your partner's in their adaptive child you're not good day for you try a couple three times to help get them say honey i'm sorry i i I'm sorry you felt like that.

1:03:24I didn't really intend that that way. But what can I... Try a couple, three times to make peace. If they come into their wise adult and they meet you there, great day for everybody. If they're stuck in their adaptive child and they're not listening, you try a couple, three times and I have this miraculous thing to do. Ready? If they're still stuck in their adaptive child after a couple, three times, go away. Stop trying. You're beating your head against the wall. You're about to move into your adaptive child in 10 seconds. Don't do it. Take a break. And the breaks are contracted, not in the heat of the moment, but in a calm, I'm going to go make some tea.

1:04:10I don't feel like we're getting much of anywhere. I'll come back in an hour and try you again. If you are in your wise adult, your partner's in their adapter child, you try and get them out of it, they won't go. And you don't jump in the mud pit with them and get into your adapter child and go into the vicious circle. If you stay steady, even when they're not, that's not a good day for your partner. It's a mixed day for your relationship. It's a great day for you. That is a strong muscle. Keep it up. and the focus of the people working with us is not on what they do on their side of the net. You do your best.

1:04:53It's on what you do on your side of the net. So if I behave with skill and integrity even when the heat is on, I'm lonely. I wish my partner were joining me. This isn't the most pleasant moment of my life, but I held steady. Good work. So it's not always about getting what you want in the response from the other. It's your best shot. Sometimes you get it, sometimes you don't. If you don't get it, I teach people, here's another skill, micro-disappointment. Vid was in her adaptive child this Thursday at 3 o 'clock. That's disappointing. It's a little lonely. Stay there. Don't jump from there to, oh, here she goes again.

1:05:39Oh, she never. Oh, I always. Just stay put in the disappointment of this Thursday, and get off your high horse. Visit her adaptive child. You're not talking to a mature adult. Big deal. You're liable to be in your adaptive child five minutes from now. You don't go down into shame. It's not your problem. It's hers. You don't go up into judgment. You're liable to do the same thing five minutes from now. Stay humble, and you let go. Okay, sorry. I'll get some tea. I'll see you later. Yeah. That's a lot of work for somebody to master. Yeah. There's two things that come up for me there. Number one, in that example, when you have tried two or three times to calm things down, the first thing is, don't get into the mud pit with them.

1:06:26Right? I love that. That's a great phrase. Don't get in the mud pit with them. But if you're not being successful there, you're saying, okay, maybe now's not the time to continue. You don't want to just storm off, right? You don't want to withdraw, right? You have to communicate that actually, hey, listen, I don't think now's the right time. I don't like what's happening in me right now. Don't even talk about them at all. Okay, this is useful. No, we, I. You know what? This isn't working for me. I love you, honey. I'm going to take a break. I need a break. I need a break. Here's the beauty. I teach everybody to speak from the I.

1:07:04If you speak subjectively, nobody can argue with you. You say, we need a break. And Big goes, no, we don't. You're always running away. I want to sit here and deal with it. Okay, well, you're in trouble. You say, I need a break. What's she going to say? Well, you don't. Well, honey, actually, I do. What can I tell you? Call me crazy, but I need a break. Bye, I'm going to lose it. I'll see you later. So that's another skill, is learning to speak from the eye and not tell your partner what they're doing. Yeah. It also makes you think of the major theme in the book, which is we not me, right? This idea that, you know, I think chapter three, my favorite chapter in the book is when us gets lost and you and me takes over, right?

1:07:49So what I take from that in this context is it's not about being right or wrong here. If you're in this situation, what is the best thing for the relationship? Not what is the best thing for me in this moment or necessarily the best thing for your partner. It's what is the best thing for the relationship? Is the best thing to both get into adaptive child, to start shouting, to scare the kids, to do whatever, right? Is that the best thing? Well, probably not. Easy to say that when you're in wise adult mode, of course. People don't want to get into adaptive child mode, right? So they can hear this and go, oh yeah, that's what I do regularly.

1:08:30Okay. How would you advise someone who has recognized that throughout this conversation? How would you help them go, okay, next time that happens, don't get into adapt to child mode. It's a lot easier said than done, isn't it? Well, it's not don't because you will. It's what are you going to do when it happens? And here's three words for everybody. take a break if you go to my website there's a one pager on how to take a formal time out there are softer versions of I'm going to make some tea I'll be back in an hour but I have instructions on how you take a break you take a break in a way that takes care of your partner honey I'm leaving here's why here's when I'm coming back that's responsible distance taking there's an explanation i'm going to lose my shit i'm taking a break and there's a promise of return i'll check in with you in about 40 minutes and you have to do it can't lie it's a skill i have to teach people people normally go i'm taking a break let alone storm out and huff that's going to get you chased you want distance take care of your partner deal with their anxiety make it clear it's a break not a rupture help them be less anxious and they won't pursue you don't take care of your partner just throw your weight around and you're gonna you're gonna get chased so a skill is is something that gets you what you want you want distance okay be nice to your partner while you take it and they'll the odds are they'll give you distance yeah throw them off in a huff and the odds are they'll pursue you uh so i want to if I may, I want to fade back to the big picture.

1:10:19Yeah, please. Okay. Remember I said there was a map and we've been talking toolbox. Let me say something about the map. Our relationships are our biospheres. We're in them. The father of family therapy, Gregory Basin, the great anthropologist, said, and he created family therapy, he said he devoted his life to correcting humankind's philosophical mistake. What is that mistake? That I'm outside of nature and I can control it. That's individualism and patriarchy. My power is to dominate. Dominion over all the things of this earth. Bad idea. I talk about ecological wisdom. I'm not above my system.

1:11:12I'm in it. i breathe it my relationship is my biosphere i breathe it i can pollute my biosphere by being selfish over here but i'm going to breathe in that pollution in my partner's coldness so we are ecologically linked there's no escape once we stop thinking with sort of grandiose control-based individualism and enter into the humility of understanding that i depend on my biosphere. Then it becomes my enlightened self-interest to take care of it. Whether I'm talking about Mother Earth, whether I'm talking about my country, whether I'm talking about my family. It's in my interest to take care of this biosphere because, hello, I'm in it.

1:12:03I get these big, burly... This is true. I get these big, burly... Why should I have to work so hard to please my wife? And I always, knock, knock. You live with her. I'm not outside of the system. I'm in the system, whether it's my body, my mind, my marriage, my family, the world. I need to be a good steward of the biosphere. So it's not about me, me, me. It's what the biosphere needs. Now, if I'm one down, there isn't enough me. My biosphere may need me to be more assertive and come on up. If I'm one up, the biosphere needs me to open my heart and to heal. Don't be so damn selfish. Give in and do what your partner asks of you.

1:12:51We meet in the middle, as you were saying. We're not better or less. My beloved friend, Carol Gilligan, says, you cannot love from the one up. You cannot love from the one down. Love demands democracy. So when I work with couples, whatever, For those of us who are one down, grow a backbone, take some risks, lean in and deal. For those of us who are one up, get off your high horse, learn to be responsible, open your heart, be accountable. You won't die. You'll like it. And so leading men, women, non-binary folks into intimacy is correcting their self-esteem. you're not better, you're not worse, and teaching them how to be connected and stay connected.

1:13:40Yeah. I first came across your work, Terry, I would say, maybe a year, year and a half ago. And the way in which I came across it was one of my really good mates, phoned me, I think I was abroad, he said, mate, you've got to download this audiobook. This is killer. You're going to absolutely love it. It's completely transformed the way I see certain things in my own marriage. And I thought, well, I really trust and respect this guy. If he's telling me that, I'm going to get it. So I downloaded it straight away. And one thing I found incredibly helpful is this idea that in, let's say, my relationship with Vid, for example, right?

1:14:20There's not just two entities. There's not just me and Vid. There's also a third entity, which is the relationship itself. I got to tell you, Terry, it's so simple now. thinking, yeah, of course. But before that, I didn't quite get it in that way. And it's not only, I think, helped me see my marriage through a different lens, it goes beyond my marriage as well. So I've been trying to communicate positive health messages to the public for maybe 12 years now, 13 years, something like that. And for the last few years, I've released a lot of podcasts, I've written six books. I've been doing, right?

1:15:05And I very much enjoy what I do. But during that time, my team has grown. There's a good eight, nine people now who work with me to help do all this stuff, right? And I realized, oh, that's a separate entity, the business, the team, that needs tending to, right? Yes, I can do my job. All the team members can do their job. but we weren't really tending to us as an organization, as a team. So it's a separate entity, isn't it? Yeah. Yes. It's a different level. There's you, me, and then there's our context, nature, the planet, our culture, our race. There's just what are we situated in? And what does the context, it's what I call waking up to you ecological wisdom, ecological humility.

1:16:01I'm not above it. I'm in it. And it's in my interest to take care of the it that I'm in. And I call this ecological wisdom. And once you wake up, it turns out, this is great, being relational and being ecologically wise are synonyms. They're two words for the same consciousness. Let me take care of my biosphere. It's not one wins, the other one loses. But by the way, when you have this map, the norms of our culture disappear. So for example, when you're thinking ecologically, relationally, the question, as you were saying, who's right and who's wrong? The answer to the question, who's right and who's wrong, is who cares?

1:16:45It doesn't matter. Wrong question. Here's the question. How are you and I going to navigate this thing in a way that's going to work for both of us? That's the question. When you're thinking relationally, if one of you wins and the other one loses, you both lose. Why? Not pie in the sky ideal. Real politic, brother. You will lose because the loser will make the winner pay for it. I guarantee it. And that's true whether it's your marriage or two countries that are living next to each other. You cannot gain security by controlling the person or the people or the country next to you. That's a myth.

1:17:21It won't work. It is in your interest to deal with the environment that you are dependent upon. Be a good steward. Wake up. It's not about win-lose. It's not about right-wrong. It's not about I give in, you don't. If you're one up, your biosphere will need you to open up and soften up. If you're one down, your biosphere may need you to toughen up and get a little firmer and more truthful and more assertive. Dare to rock the boat. It's not about the two of you. It's about what the biosphere requires of you in that moment. It makes me think of one of your foundational principles, which is there's no such thing as objective reality in relationships.

1:18:07That's a bitter pill. yeah but i would say the biggest thing that i've learned or one of the biggest things that has helped me in my own marriage over the last 18 years is letting go of the need to be right a few years ago i figured out i thought oh this is there's no this it doesn't matter it actually doesn't matter no one cares no one cares hey i proved i'm right okay what's for dinner um you know this is what i like to say look both blin and i are fighters our adaptive children are both fighters screw i'm from i'm a blue-collar jew from new jersey i grew up in violence she grew up in violence it's like don't fuck with us so when we go off it's like fight meets fight you don't want to be there um so nowadays on a good day we'll get revved up fight, fight, we'll take a break, one or the other, I need 20 minutes.

1:19:03And nine out of 10 times, 20 minutes, we take turns, one or the other comes back, it sounds like this. I know you'll recognize it. Hey, B, I don't really want to fight. Do you want to fight? I don't want to fight. What do you need, hon? And then Belinda says, well, you really were an asshole about dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. Yeah, I was, actually. You're right. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to hurt you. Okay, what do you need? Well, you could apologize about dot, dot, dot. Well, I'm sorry about dot. By the way, five years ago, what about the other three dots? Now it's like, okay, I'll take the dot. Thanks.

1:19:43And we make peace. Why do we make peace? This is what I call keeping your head on straight. Here's what I'm thinking when I make peace. Honest to God. Ready? How do I want to spend my evening? That's what I'm thinking. Do I want to spend my evening fighting with this insane person who's fighting with this insane person? Or do we want to end this nonsense and go cuddle on the couch and watch the good show on TV? I'm in charge. How do I want to spend my evening? And that's the wise adult. And the beauty is shifting out of that automatic knee jerk into the thoughtful, wise adult. We call it relational mindfulness.

1:20:24that transition, which you may need to physically take a break and go walk around the block, whatever it takes. Shifting out of that automatic nature to thoughtful, okay, I wonder what skill I could use here. That can be cultivated. Go to the gym and get muscles. Sit on your pillow and meditate. Meditation is a great boom to relational mindfulness. and Thomas and I did a couple of courses on intimacy and spirituality and I've been meditating for 60 years. Belinda and I started off most every day meditating and what I say is yeah great it's great to be spiritual in your cushion in the morning. Why don't you remember to be spiritual when you're in the kitchen your wife is screaming at you.

1:21:08Be spiritual in that moment. That's relational mindfulness. Woof. I call it whoosh. Woof. Belinda gives me anger. I'm ready to bop her in the nose. Take a breath. Bring it down. Get centered. Okay. I wonder if there's anything I can do right now. It's my work. And the more work I do, meditation, therapy, parts work, the easier it is for me to do that in the moment. But it can just be grown through doing it, Just like any other muscle. Yeah. I think something that people may find reassuring is this idea that you've been married for over 30 years. You have been... 40 years. 40 years. Congratulations.

1:22:00I like to call them the best five years of my life. Well, it's this idea that with all your knowledge, your expertise, you've created this new therapy system. You clearly are able to help problematic marriages find repair and the ability to move forwards. But I think what's reassuring for people is this idea that despite all of that, it still happens. And you write about this, don't you? That relationships are this constant cycle of harmony, disharmony and repair. Again, I think that's one of the best concepts I've read in your book was this idea that this is the natural order of relationships.

1:22:42It just goes through that. And we're probably pretty good, I think, aren't we? Well, harmony, then disharmony, but it's that repair, right? The ability to repair. Because you're kind of making the case that this is going to happen in all relationships, this cycle, right? Absolutely. So you better get good at repairing. if you're not good at repair, the disharmony stays and it doesn't return back to harmony, does it? No. Every couple that I see on the brink of divorce has one thing in common. Their issues are all over the place. Their character is all over the place. They all share this. They do not have a working mechanism of correction.

1:23:23Every couple on the brink for 40 years, that's what's going on. they don't have the capacity to say hey Rangan don't scratch me here that's not where I is scratch me here oh okay honey I will no don't scratch me here scratch don't tell me what to do don't scratch me here excuse me I feel really criticized don't scratch me here scratch me well I've got an itch too every couple the process of I would like you to change your behavior this way for me to be more pleasing oh okay hon I'll do that is broken it does not work and I have to restore that process of listening to your partner and actually changing your goddamn behavior a little bit to be more pleasing to your partner because it's in your interest you're not being whipped you're not being submissive you're working to be a better partner to your partner great do it uh but it's almost an art that's been lost that it's a good thing to change to make yourself more pleasing to your partner that's not a bad thing that's not wimpy that's loving.

1:24:44When you talk about the skills of repair, one of the things you write about is this idea that repair is not a two-way street. What does that mean? Everybody gets this wrong. So, okay, so why don't we move into repair? A, we don't know how. Nobody taught us the skills. B, we don't really want to. If you're in your adaptive... The first step in repair is relational mindfulness. I call it remembering love. What am I about here? Somebody said, wait, why am I talking? We have five losing strategies of the adaptive child. Being right, why am I talking? To prove that I'm right and she's wrong. Take a break.

1:25:26Why am I talking? To get her to dot, dot, dot, control. Take a break. Why am I talking? To vomit all of my bad feelings about her, to her. Therapy says that's a good thing. It's crazy. I call that the vomit bag approach to intimacy, unbridled venting. Why am I talking? To hurt her the way she hurt me, that's retaliation. Why am I talking? I'm not, I just turned off, I withdrew. Yeah. One thing I found incredibly helpful is this idea that, you know, when things aren't going well, remember that this is someone you love. Yes. It's so bloody obvious, Terry, when you think about it, But it's not obvious to people in the moment, right?

1:26:11Remember, this is someone you love. This is someone you chose to marry. This is someone you are living with and are having children with. So surely you should be treating them with a degree of dignity and respect whenever you talk to them. But we don't. Or I would say our adapted child doesn't anyway. I think our wise adult does. That's exactly right. and remembering who you're talking to is a technique for getting out of the adaptive child into the wise adult because it's only the wise adult that can remember. The adaptive child is not about intimacy. This is a bitter pill. The adaptive child is about survival.

1:26:51It's not about us. It's about me, goddammit. I'm going to survive. And it has its place, but it has no nuance. you know I must say this to couples at least twice a week when Belinda comes at me that one day a year when Belinda comes at me with anger I immediately take little Terry I've got a capacity he's about eight and I literally envision him behind me holding onto my shirt and I have to deal with him I say okay listen between Belinda's anger and you little vulnerable guy is me my adult self my big body like Superman, I'll take the hit. You're protected back there. You don't feel any of it.

1:27:37I got it. Now here's your part of the deal. You let me deal with my wife. Don't you try and deal with her. You'll make a goddamn mess of it. So that's our deal. I'll protect you. You let me have the wheel. And that is a practice over, I could do that. You know, I deal with tough guys. That's my beat. And I literally have like 6 '5", 270-pound NFL linebackers ducking into the bathroom and putting their little boys on the lap five, six times a day. Literally, they write to me and tell me they're doing that. The trauma work happens in the therapy, but that's just the prologue. The real work happens outside in the heat of the moment.

1:28:26Take a break. take that little boy fight fighter fawn put him on your lap hear him love him and put him in the back seat take his sticky hands off the steering wheel you're driving the bus not your adaptive child yeah if we just go back to repair it's not a two-way street for just a moment Terry I just want to because I think it's such a great practical tip for all of us when we're thinking about repair what is the thinking behind that you know where do we go wrong with that and how would you help us solve that great so the first skill is remembering love the first skill in repair is getting into the wise adult which wants to repair the first thing you got to ask yourself is what am i about here wait why am i talking am i really talking to repair or am i talking to control my partner, prove I'm right, get back at them, some adaptive child strategy.

1:29:27Okay, be honest with yourself. And if the answer is, I don't remember that I love this person, they're evil and I hate their guts. Great, thank you for being honest. Take a walk around the block. Don't try these skills from your adaptive child. They won't go well. We all do it. I do it. Hey, Belinda, I have some feedback for you. Do you want it? No, thanks. the words are there, but no. So the first order of business is getting into the, you know, we have workshops all over the world now. And my favorite slide in the workshop is, other workshops teach you skills. We deal with the part of you that won't use them.

1:30:10So first get out of that part into the part that actually wants to make repair. That's your first book. Okay, now repair. Everybody gets this wrong. Repair is not a dialogue. Repair is not a conversation. Repair is a one-way street. Your partner's upset with you, or your colleague, or someone at work, or your kid. You have one job. Get them out of disrepair back into repair with you. Out of disharmony back into harmony. That's your job. Why do you want to do that? You live with them. It's in your interests. And also, you love them. So, why not? But what everybody does is, well, you have this issue.

1:30:52Well, I have that issue. Well, yes, I did that, but you have to understand that. Nobody gives a shit. Here's the metaphor. All you people watching and listening. If your partner, kid, co-worker comes to you and they're disgruntled, you have one job, help them feel better. Here's my metaphor. You're at the customer service window. somebody comes to you and says my microwave doesn't work they don't want to hear you say well my toaster doesn't work they don't want to hear you say well the reason why your microwave doesn't work is because you're an idiot and you're plugging it in fix the damn microwave deal with their ouch help them come back into connection with you then maybe hours later the next day or maybe not at all then maybe you can say a little bit about what was going on with you But somebody comes to you and they're unhappy with you and you start, yes, butting them.

1:31:48Well, yeah, I did it. But you have to understand, a flying saucer landed on my roof. Yeah, I did it. But look at the things you do to me. No. Yeah, I did it. You're right. I'm sorry. What was that like for you? What can I give you now? How can I help you feel better? Keep your eyes on the prize. and about you and your excuses and feelings and your issues this is not the moment your moment can come later but in this moment you're at the service of the person who's unhappy with you yeah well what i love about that is that it's like what we said before as long as one of you can remain in the wise adult modes and apply some of this stuff you can stop things escalating right so but you also have to restrain yourself don't you have to go as you're just saying now's not the time i don't need to get my side of this out right now okay yeah all i need to do is help my partner move out of adapted child into wise adult so i need to give her or him what they need in this moment to do that everything else comes after that because the truth is it's it's frankly pointless to try and have a rational discussion adapted child to adapt to child or even wise Sad up to an adopted child, right?

1:33:06You just, it's the, you know, we're in stress state. We're not in thrive states. So I have a saying about women in particular. An angry woman is a woman who doesn't feel heard. You want to deescalate your angry partner, help them feel heard. Okay, I got it. You're right. I'm sorry you feel bad. What could I do to help you feel better, if anything? be at their service and you will de-escalate them yeah you start coming in with your issues your excuses you're this you're that they're going to feel like you're deflecting and they don't feel heard and they're going to escalate try it yeah i i don't take anything i say on faith try these techniques and see if they don't work better tara i've got some questions uh from my audience to put to you which i thought would be quite illuminating to go through.

1:34:00But before we get there, I just want to touch on something that has sort of underpinned a lot of this conversation, which is this idea that the culture trains us a certain way, instills certain ideas within us, which causes problems in our relationships. And one of the things I was thinking about was this idea that the kind of qualities we need for good intimate relationships, for close intimate relationships, are perhaps not the qualities that a capitalist society values and celebrates. And I feel the foreword to your book, Us, really illuminates this. Would you mind if I read a bit of the foreword that none other than Bruce Springsteen wrote to your book?

1:34:52Okay. And again, you're from New Jersey. You said, obviously, the king of New Jersey, Bruce Springsteen. Would it be okay if I just read a couple of bits from his foreword? Okay. By my early 30s, I'd become aware enough to know, as things stood, I'd never have the things I wanted. A full life, a home, a wholeness of being, a companion, and a place in my community of neighbors and friends all seem beyond my grasp. I didn't have the judgment, the courage, or the skills to bring a real life to fruition. Okay, that's how he starts. But then he goes on to say this. I was one of the most successful musicians on the planet, but work is work, life is life, and they are not the same.

1:35:42Even more frustrating, the things that made me good at my job, my easy tolerance, even hunger for the isolation of creativity, my ability to comfortably and deeply reside within myself and put all my energy into my work for days, weeks, years at a time, doomed my personal life to failure. I lived a lonely but seemingly secure existence. I had to reread that forward over and over again. It was such a beautiful articulation of what Bruce has got from you. But there's that key point there in the last few sentences I read out, which is the things that made him the exceptional rock musician that he has been were also the things that made him not so good at life.

1:36:32Yes. Our culture rewards adaptive children. Our culture doesn't like wise adults. Our culture rewards performance. our culture is nervous about real intimacy and maturity uh our culture doesn't know what to do we live in a patriarchal which means masculine values writ large power dominance performance got that one vulnerability connection cherishing love yeah well that's all nice but business is business. So yeah, I deal with high rollers and every single one of them has been a roaring success out in the world and a mess in their personal lives and a mess between their ears. They're not happy.

1:37:23So I talk about the difference between gratification and relational joy. I'm glad this came up for the listeners. Gratification is a short-term hit of pleasure. It's great in its place. You know, you smoke a joint, you have a martini, pretty girl flirts with you, your stock goes up, all great. In Boston, your kid gets to Narva, that's ground zero, all great. In its place. Relational joy, which I have to teach these often men, is a deeper down pleasure. You have it. A deeper down pleasure of the joy of being, the joy of just being there and being connected. Parents get this. Sometimes your kid is gratifying.

1:38:08Sometimes you want to throw them through the goddamn window. If you were in that spot where you were hating their guts and I said, hey, I could go back in time and you would never have to even have this kid, you'd deck me. It's not about whether they're gratifying or not. It's deeper than that. That's relational joy, the joy of connectedness to yourself, to the people you love, to your body, to the planet. Connection feels great. many of the men that I work with have little to no idea of relational joy. It's all about performance and gratification. And the world has made them billionaires, stars, celebrities, but they don't know how to be close.

1:38:48They don't know how to sit still and be at peace inside their own bodies. So, okay, when you're out in the gladiatorial arena, be a gladiator. when you come home, put down the sword and shield and be a lover. You can be both. I'm not, I hate it when people critique me and say, Terry Real is trying to feminize men. Get lost. It's not at all what I'm saying. I want whole men and women, whole people of all genders. And, you know, I love to tell stories. This is one of my favorite stories.

1:39:28see traditional patriarchy stoic invulnerable men accommodating resentful women that's the norm or now after feminism women have two choices they can be traditional accommodating resentful or they can be liberated which is individual empowerment now I'm strong go screw yourself So relational empowerment is the next step. All right.

1:40:00What I want is wholeness. I want strong and sexy, wise and loving, selfish and giving, all of the qualities. Based on what's in front of you and what you have to do there. So I want wholeness and adaptability. Bruce talked about being wildly adaptable to the culture at large and he's a star not so adaptable in his living room very common here's the story I had the privilege of being with a Maasai community in Tanzania yeah and I had a men's group with the elders for four nights which I about everything, God, women, love, death. It went from English to Swahili, to Messiah to Swahili, to English.

1:40:57So here's a moment I'll always remember. I say to them, in America where I'm from, there's a debate about what makes a good morani, warrior man, it's one word, morani. What makes a good morani? Some people think a good morani is tender, sensitive, responsible. Some people think a good Marani is ferocious, tough, hard as nails. What do you guys think? What makes a good Marani? True story. So I went, and they're all talking, and then this one little guy stands up. He stands up. He's about four foot two, maybe 300 years old. Chris is like, ah! It sounds like he's totally pissed at me. And here's the translation.

1:41:45that's word for word true I have no interest in talking about what makes a good Marani I could care less but I will talk to you about what makes a great Marani now listen when the moment calls for fierceness a good Marani is a killer don't cross them they'll kill you when the moment calls for tenderness a good Marani lays down his sword and shield and is sweet like a little baby he said a great Morani is the man who knows which moment is which so good so good it's such a beautiful it's such a beautiful idea this one of wholeness that you talk about right it's not about I'm either this or I'm that it's like no no no there's room for all of it right you can express all those parts just express them in the correct situations like a great Marani.

1:42:46I really, really like that. Something I can take away and think about. Terry, I wonder if it'd be okay to go to some questions that my audience have written and popped to you. I don't think we'll get through them all, but I think there's a couple there which I think would be quite interesting and take us into a slightly different place than the things we've already spoken about. Okay, so this one has come in. Terry, how do you keep a healthy interest and fresh perspective on a marriage after almost 40 years. What can you do to create excitement? Well, this is interesting. The great director, actor, Olivia Wilde, just came out with a new movie, and Esther Perel, my pal, your guest, consulted in, and they said I was very much present in the making.

1:43:39Esther and I are going slightly different directions on this it's kind of fun Esther goes well you need mystery shake it up have sex on the couch wear something wear an outfit tell each other some secret fantasy juice you know just juice it up more mystery less brother sisterly platonicness and a little more loverness and that's all I like that, that's fine. Here's where I go. Tell the truth to each other. You want to keep your relationship passionate? Take each other to the mat. Deal with each other. Here's something about me that you don't know after 40 years. Show more of yourself. Take more risks.

1:44:34things get stale when we stop telling the truth to each other and most couples stop telling the truth to each other so as Sarah would say get some fantasy get something going get a sex toy move out for a week you know do something like more affair-ish inside your marriage I would say be aggressive in a good way lean in and take each other on show each other parts of yourselves that you've held back from that'll keep it alive yeah so I think we're both right next question how can I understand what my partner is going through when he is not ready to discuss or open up what steps should I take to solve this you can only say this is important to me even if you don't want to do it for me would you work on doing it and if they're not listening the answer is no then drag the son of a gun into therapy I would recommend an RLT therapist because they'll take your side and lean in and try to get through to the guy assuming it's a guy so try it yourself with skill you may not want to open up but I need you to open up I'm lonely in here let me tell you what I mean by that remember the three steps dare to rock the boat look I need you to open up I'm lonely teach them what you want this is what I mean by opening up I want you to tell me about your day I want you to tell me about your feelings and how can I help you do that and then once your partner tries, this is huge.

1:46:19I'm so glad this came up. When partner B starts giving partner A what partner A is asking for, do you think partner A swoons in their arms and says, thank you, no. They cut it off at the knees. They protect themselves and go back to their corner of skepticism. Too little, too late. You did it, but you're not doing it right. you're doing it now but you're going to stop stop protecting yourself you did I say celebrate the glass 15 % full it was only 5 % full last week like if your kid gets a D in school you read them the riot act they come back next week with a C you don't say where's the A you say good progress let's keep going same thing with your spouse if your spouse tries encourage them don't discourage them yeah i like to say hey honey you just did a half-assed job congratulations that's great how do we get the other cheek on board you know work with them but from a place of appreciation and positiveness not criticalness encourage them don't discourage them yeah brilliant uh two more i think which we will just try and quickly cover um when do you know that the relationship is really over?

1:47:40I mean, we could do a whole podcast on that, but here's the short version. And if you go to my website, there's an article called Rowing to Nowhere, When is Enough Enough? about this. I talk about what I call a relational reckoning. So you haven't gotten through, okay, step one, learn a whole new set of skills to talk to your partner better that increase the odds that they'll be able to listen. Two, if they're still not listening and you're doing a great job, drag them to a therapist and a therapist who will take your side and help you with them. Three, if nothing works, should I stay or go? Here's the tool.

1:48:21I call it a relational reckoning. And it's a question. Am I getting enough in this relationship? Am I getting enough in this relationship to make grieving what I'm not getting worth my while? Am I getting enough to make bearing the pain of what's missing here okay with me? Because you're with an imperfect person and things will be missing and they will hurt. So, you know, maybe you're a great lover and your last 20 relationships were with partners who, you know, sprang from chandeliers in the ceiling. You're now with a person who's been sexually molested as a kid. They're quiet. They're contained.

1:49:08They need to be in control. You've got to go slow and gentle with this person. Do you miss the wild party nights? You do. Don't keep talking to your partner about that, but you can talk to me about that. Yes, you miss it. But, oh my God, she's a wonderful mother. She's a beautiful friend. We love each other. Sex is okay. It's not stellar, but it's okay. Good enough. And what do you do with your grief? You feel it. Don't blame her. Don't go looking for somebody else. Just stand in it. You're walking down the street and you see a guy with some sexpot woman who's all over him, oh, you feel a pang in your heart.

1:49:53Oh, I remember the old wild days. Oh, well, that's not what I have here. It's okay. What I have here is beautiful. If the answer is it's not good enough to make grieving worthwhile, then fight or get out. If the answer is, you know what? It is good enough. For now, at least, I can let go of it. Then goddamn let go of it. Don't walk around like a big victim and embrace what you are getting with joy. So do your reckoning and then own it. Yeah, that's such great advice. Terry, one more question I think would take us into a different area again is this one. Is it okay to be friends with an ex-partner?

1:50:37That's a great question you're asking the wrong person. Don't ask me, ask your partner. Is it okay with you? my dear spouse, if I remain friends with an ex-lover? And is there anything you need in order for me to have that privilege? I like to say bring your exes home. Introduce them to your family. Dissolve that membrane of the two of us and open it up to the people you're living with now. it will be less frightening to your partner if you do that but i don't know it's between you and your partner yeah so i could talk to you for hours honestly i think you've just done such phenomenal work for so many years uh the book of yours i have read is us reconnect with your partner and build a loving and lasting relationship i think it's such a wonderful read and a beautiful guide for all of us who seek to improve our skills in relationships so first of all thank you for all the work.

1:51:44Thank you for writing it. And my final question, Terry, is really for that person who's listening or watching and has realized throughout this conversation that, you know what, they don't really have the skills that are needed to have an adult relationship, right? I think many people will be going, wow, I didn't know that, I didn't know that, I didn't know that. So for that person who is in a relationship but feels that they're constantly arguing with their partner, that despite their best efforts, nothing seems to change. They're wondering, is it me? Is it them? You know, for that person who's basically lost hope, what are your final words to them?

1:52:31Well, I want everybody to come to my website at terryreal.com. I'm really pleased to say, along with a two-year training program we have for professionals, We're developing more and more offerings for the general public. Great. So I have a beautiful class on what healthy self-esteem looks like, what boundaries look like, basic relationship skills, how to get more of what you want in your relationship, and parenting. They're all pretty affordable. They're all online. You take them. Amazing if both you and your partner took them together. Start there. and if that's not enough to move things, go find an RLT therapist.

1:53:11They're all over the world. So go to the website and find them. Yeah, I love that. I guess that sort of really closes off this conversation beautifully. This idea that the culture around you doesn't teach you the things that you need for modern 21st century relationships. So it's not your fault that you don't know how to do it, but now that you know that you don't have the skills, go out there and get the skills, right? the information is available out there now this book for example has got a ton of information in it but as you say people can also go to your website is that terryreal.com that's it just t-e-r-r-y-r-e-a-l.com yeah brilliant terry honestly such a pleasure to talk to you thank you for everything and um i'll uh hopefully get a chance to see you at some point in the future i would love that bring me back on the show i'll do i'll talk some more and i gotta tell you you are what we call a good man and this world has a lot of bad examples out there right now and you're a good one so bless you and the work you're doing and stay strong and healthy we need you

1:54:21really hope you enjoyed that conversation do think about one thing that you can take away and apply into your own life and also have a think about one thing from this conversation that you can teach to somebody else. Remember, when you teach someone, it not only helps them, it also helps you learn and retain the information. Now, before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday Five. It's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness. In that email, I share exclusive insights that I do not share anywhere else, including health advice, how to manage your time better, interesting articles or videos that I've been consuming and quotes that have caused me to stop and reflect and I have to say in a world of endless emails it really is delightful that many of you tell me it is one of the only weekly emails that you actively look forward to receiving so if that sounds like something you would like to receive each and every Friday you can sign up for free at drchatterjee.com forward slash Friday Five.

1:55:28Now, if you are new to my podcast, you may be interested to know that I have written five books that have been bestsellers all over the world, covering all kinds of different topics, happiness, food, stress, sleep, behavior change and movement, weight loss, and so much more. So please do take a moment to check them out. They are all available as paperbacks, eBooks, and as audio books, which I am narrating. If you enjoyed today's episode, it is always appreciated if you can take a moment to share the podcast with your friends and family or leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Thank you so much for listening.

1:56:04Have a wonderful week. And please note that if you want to listen to this show without any adverts at all, that option is now available for a small monthly fee on Apple and on Android. All you have to do is click the link in the episode notes in your podcast app. And always remember, you are the architect of your own health. Making lifestyle change is always worth it. Because when you feel better, you live more.