The Art of Communication: How to Stay Calm, Connected and In Control During Life’s Toughest Moments with Jefferson Fisher #571

27:36Jefferson Fisher:Same thing. or people who want to, if you've been on the phone and somebody just hangs up while you're talking or they instantly want to leave the room, that's the flight. You find that in every conversation that you have. And the person that controls their nervous system, which to me is the number one way to do that in conversation, is your breath because it slows things down. It keeps the analytical side engaged. You know this. And a lot of your listeners, of course, know this. It is something that can improve their conversation because it never sounds like you're lost. It never sounds like you're unsure of yourself or that you're grasping or desperate, that you've lost your sense of control.

28:16Jefferson Fisher:And I'm very curious. I'll be asking you of, as a doctor, a lot of the doctor friends that I have, they see things as kind of this triage of like, if then, if this, of like a bunch of, at least this is my very simplistic version of it they see it as uh kind of the roots of a tree of how if you can't go here you go here you're finding the symptoms do you find that kind of mentality helpful in communication or hurtful in communication because i know doctors that some are good at conversation there are others that are not at all yeah i mean there's a couple to answer that, Jefferson. So firstly, one of the things that I really resonated with when reading your book is you saying that in law school, you don't really learn how to communicate.

29:04You learn the rules of law, but not actually how to do it in real life. And my wife, who, when I met her, was a criminal barrister in London. She said the same thing here. They don't teach you actually how to do it, how to be a good advocate in the courtroom. You've got to figure that out about yourself. The same thing in medicine. I don't think they really teach us how to be a good communicator. And I think some doctors are pretty poor at communicating. Some are exceptional. Everyone's passed their medical school exams. Everyone's smart. Yeah. By those metrics, but not everyone can, I guess, communicate effectively or influence their patients positively because of their communication skills.

29:50Right. So when you were talking about this sort of flow chart, I don't know if that's in terms of communication or to get to a diagnosis. Yes. Diagnosis. Diagnosis. So my view on medicine is perhaps a little bit different. Okay. So I think one of the problems with the way we practice medicine, especially given the health landscape of the countries around the world today is that you know too much of what we're taught about is literally what are the symptoms what bucket can we get them into so we can make the diagnosis once we've got the diagnosis we can get onto the treatment and the treatment is usually not always but usually pharmaceutical medications today 80 to 90 percent of what we see in medicine is related to our collective modern lifestyles so what i'm interested in most when i have someone i'm talking to about the health is what is going on in their life what are their behaviors what are their lifestyle habits that are resulting in those current symptoms.

31:04And if I can accurately identify that and help them change it, I'm going to help them relieve a variety of different symptoms. Does that make sense so far?

31:13Jefferson Fisher:It does. Because what I hear you saying is there is the tendency to only address the symptoms, not address the causes. I feel it very much the same. So we're at a wonderful point in time, and it's a wonderful time to be alive of that we're starting to realize, hey, we're only addressing the symptoms of things. I'm not addressing the causes of things. Same in communication. Symptoms of communication sound like, I don't understand you. Why would you say that to me? And we're only yelling. We're only shouting. We're only saying things. Or the symptom could be, oh, I'm so sorry. No, no, no, that's okay.

31:55Jefferson Fisher:You just tell me. And I just feel like, no, no, no. and they're being extra polite. They're being people pleasers. They're either being super aggressive or they're being completely deferential. One says, I don't respect you. The other says, I don't respect myself. And they're both symptoms of the same type of thing of the cause is really inherently what's going on behind the surface when you communicate. It's not that you left the dish in the sink. It never is. It's never it is. It's something that happened earlier that morning or something that happened the night before. It's hardly ever the issue.

32:32Jefferson Fisher:My dad would teach me often, the issue is rarely the issue, is what he would tell me. It's not, your mom's not mad about this. She's mad because she's afraid of X, Y, and Z. That's what you're not hearing. And so when you can realize that a lot of the causes are fears, insecurities, things that happened long before they ever met you and walked in your door, those are the causes to be addressed. Yeah, I mean, it's just amazing to hear that you were getting taught that stuff by your father, right? Because yes, you're from a family of trial lawyers. It's kind of what you guys do. But the gold in life, I believe in most things is when you get behind the words behind the symptoms.

33:17So I reflect on my entire medical career and I realized that from a very early stage in my career, I was always trying to read what was going on behind the words. The patient comes in and they're saying certain things with their voice. And of course, I'm listening and I'm interested into the words that they're saying. But I was always interested more in what's behind these words. Why has this person ended up here today?

33:47Jefferson Fisher:right this has been going on for years what has happened that they've decided to take half a day off work wait in a reception area for like an hour when the doctor's running late turn up why why why the other thing I realized about communication is how often I would see one side of a patient so the receptionists would say oh this patient's really rude that really really pushing right yeah but when I was with them they were lovely right interesting isn't it It really is. I teach in communication. The number one mindset to have in communication is this, have something to learn, not something to prove.

34:28Jefferson Fisher:Meaning instead of saying they have to agree with me, they have to hear my point. They have to say why I'm right. And they have to say that they are wrong rather than pushing that rather than rather than saying, I don't think you know who you're talking to. instead of that something to learn says huh i wonder why they said that i wonder what's going on i wonder what's why would they have that reaction these inner conversations you're having with yourself that's getting to the deeper meaning the causes the same type of same type of similarities there so yeah so therefore for me following on from that how often then do you think it's actually our egos that start getting in the way of our ability to communicate well?

35:19Jefferson Fisher:Ego is certainly part of it. I think our fear drives it more, right? And I think that can work in tandem. Fear that you are losing credibility, fear that you're falling behind, fear that you're not being respected in some sense. That's where the ego comes in. I think a lot of it drives from the fear, which goes to the fight or flight. Again, I, and I'll, there's so many nuggets that I got taught and I know that's a blessing for me and a gift to me. My, my dad, when I would come to him with problems, he would, and I mean this positively, I would complain about something and he'd go, so? And I'd say, well, and I'd start continuing to explain it.

36:09He'd go, so?

36:11Jefferson Fisher:And I mean, it continued to push the, why does it matter? Why does it bother me? What is the end goal? Instead of him getting very upset with me and agreeing with me, and you're so right, even if I was right about the issue, why am I behaving this way? So why, why did they say this? Where did this come from? And so he was always find the so, so, so, so in terms of a patient, patient coming in. Somebody's upset about something. Okay. You don't feel good. So what are you feeling about that? Okay. So what are you wanting to do? So what is the outcome here? So what would make you feel best? You always continue to follow that chain and where it typically goes is some type of fear or insecurity.

37:00Yeah. It reminds me of something we get taught at medical school where someone comes in with a certain problem or they're describing a certain problem or a symptom, but that's not really why they came in. And, you know, what often will happen, I don't know, a guy, a middle-aged guy will come in with a little, I don't know, mark on their leg or something, or a slight ankle sprain from playing sport or something, right? And you deal with it. And then on the way out, as they're closing the door saying bye, oh yeah, doc, you know, also I was just worried, actually. My uncle once had a tumor in their bone, in their foot.

37:40You know, it's not that, is it? Or whatever it might be. So the real reason they were there is because they were worried they might have cancer. But for whatever reason, they didn't feel able to say that. Maybe they didn't want to say it. Maybe the doctor didn't create the right environment. for whatever reason, they didn't feel able to say it. But on the way out, as you think you finish and you're going, you know, in your head, you're just trying to, you know, make the notes. It's kind of interesting, isn't it?

38:06Jefferson Fisher:Yeah, it is. It is. And it's, I find from the friends that I have that are doctors, they tell me that so many people just want to be told, you're okay. Yeah. At the end of the day, they just, they have a fear. And they, it's, oh, I, you know, I have this kind of pain in my arm and it comes and goes. And am I okay? Am I going to be all right? And it's the same way in communication. We find that at least what I hear when I am having my conversations, especially in my profession, you have people who say things and have certain opinions of things and they just want to be told that's okay. Even if I disagree.

38:45Jefferson Fisher:So let's say you and I are, we're at odds over an issue. And instead of me going, no, I don't look, I don't get your opinion. Like, why in the world would you do? That's one way to handle it. Now, what's going to happen? I'm telling you, you're not okay. That's what I'm communicating in that conversation. But what if I started it with, Rangan, I don't need you to agree with me. You're free to disagree with me. And I give you my point then. Now what's going to happen? Now you're actually listening to what I said. Now you don't feel the pressure. Now you don't feel, now you're, what I'm communicating is you're okay, just as you are in this conversation.

39:21Jefferson Fisher:your opinions, how you feel, totally okay. I'm going to tell you something of what I see. And that kind of stuff is going to instantly smooth things out rather than the feeling and telling them you're not okay in the conversation. That feeds the fear. Yeah. Man, it's so interesting, this stuff. It's fun. It's really fun because, you know, going back to the start, why do I think the quality of our communication improves the quality of our life in every single aspect? I think it's obvious to people intuitively, yeah that's going to improve your relationships right your relationship with your partner with your work colleagues if you can communicate better clearly that will help your relationships but I also make the case that it will help improve your health because and again I don't know if anyone's ever put this to you before Jefferson that your book may well be a health book okay awesome I'd be honored right and I'll explain to you why I believe that to be the case 80 to 90 percent of what we see these days as daughters is in some way related to our collective modern lifestyles okay so the natural um sort of follow-on from that is that if we can change the way that we are living with certain behaviors and habits it's going to have an impact on our health, right?

40:39But why is it that so many people, despite knowing that too much sugar, right, is not helping them, they still continue to do it? Everyone says you just need more knowledge. Well, the knowledge is out there, right? Most people are trying to give up sugar or reduce their sugar intake, kind of know already that they should be doing that, right? Or a lot of people do. It's not necessarily more external knowledge they need. I believe they need more internal knowledge. So how does that relate to communication? Well, I believe using the example of sugar, that sugar is often used to help people cope with stress.

41:20What is one of the biggest sources of stress? Our relationships. What is one of the biggest problems with our relationships? We are unable to communicate well, even with the people that we love. right right so i make the case i really really do believe this strongly that because that's the other thing about your book right if you don't know how to communicate well i think the tools are going to help you start doing that but there seems to be this very close relationship between our ability to regulate our nervous system and the way that we communicate so yeah you can either become a master in your nervous system and then hopefully that will naturally lead to better communication, which I think can work.

42:01Or you can apply these tools, which will automatically help you regulate your nervous system better. Does that make sense?

42:10Jefferson Fisher:It does. Yeah. So if you want better health, instead of treating the symptoms, we're going to treat the causes. One of the causes is the communication in your life. Exactly. Period. Because if you ever question that, ask this question, have you ever had an argument with your spouse, how do you perform that next day? And you haven't resolved that conflict yet. You're emotionally up and down. How do you sleep? Yeah, you don't. I mean, you just, yeah, poor sleep. How many times you've had bad conversations that have led to depression? I'm talking not just communication with other people. We're talking communication within yourself, not the conversations you have externally.

42:48Jefferson Fisher:How do you talk to yourself? Yeah. What's the communication that you have with yourself? That negative self-talk leads to a state of depression. It says, I am not worthy enough. I am less. I am hesitant. I am an inconvenience to everybody. That is a place that is only going to lead you downwards. That all affects your health in some way. So I absolutely agree with this hypothesis that if you want a better health, if you want a better life, one of the causes of that is a better conversation. Yeah. Wow. I love it. Done. I think we just wrap it up. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. It should be in the, We should put it in the health section of the bookstore now.

43:25There we go. Move it away from, I don't know, smart thinking, put it in the health section. There we go. You have these powerful life lessons, okay, in the book for our communication. I want to go through some of them. Now, some of them you've kind of touched on already, but I'd love to go through some of these bit by bit to really give practical take-homes for people, okay? Now, one of the lessons is that silence is power. Right. Why?

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45:36Now, it's natural to look for extra ways to support our immune defenses, but most people don't want to juggle multiple pills. They want something simple, effective, and easy to stick with. AG1 is a daily health drink that provides key immunity-supporting nutrients, vitamin C, vitamin A, zinc, and selenium, all of which contribute to the normal function of the immune system. These nutrients are included in highly bioavailable forms, meaning they are much easier for the body to absorb and use. Backed by clinical research, expert formulation, and continuous improvement, each batch is independently tested for quality and safety.

46:19That's how they guarantee what's in your scoop and what's not. And the best thing, of course, is that all this goodness comes in one convenient, tasty daily serving. For a limited time only, get a free AG1 flavor sampler and AGZ sampler, plus free vitamin D3 and K2, and AG1 welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription order. That's$87 in free gifts for first-time subscribers. See all details at drinkag1.com forward slash live more.

47:01It is the one thing that someone cannot throw back in your face.

47:07Jefferson Fisher:Silence can never be misquoted. Silence is not something that you can, somebody can create anything out of, so to speak. Silence gives you the power to choose. It gives you options. Is this somebody I want to talk to? Is this something I want to respond to? Is this something that's worth my time? Is this person worth my time? The first thing to know about standing up for yourself is knowing, is this person worth getting out of my chair for? It is silence that puts things on pause because you can't make me say anything I don't want to say. I can physically grab you and I can physically manipulate you, but I cannot do that with your words.

47:53Jefferson Fisher:I cannot force you to say something without forcing you physically. Silence is your tool that you can have. And it's wonderful in the sense of you use it for difficult conversations. You use it for meaningful conversations. Let's say you're sharing something with me that's very deep and you've had a very hard day. I don't need to fix it. I just need to sit with you. Yeah. And in that silence, holding that with the therapy world would say, holding that space for you, just sitting in here with you. I don't have to say anything, but at the same time, I'm saying everything. Yeah. Now let's say you're saying something mean to me and you say something that really hurts.

48:33And rather than responding, I just say nothing.

48:38Jefferson Fisher:That sends another message. That's another option that I get to have. And now you have to hear those words echo back and you have to do something with it. That's why silence is such a powerful tool. Could it be deemed as being aggressive if we use silence? I can weaponize it. Yeah. So you could, that turns into stonewalling. That turns into people ghosting for no reason. Stonewalling, in my opinion, is weaponized silence. You are doing it as a punishment. It's punitive. It's a sense of control. If you try to, I'm not talking about the gray rock type of stuff where it's you have to protect yourself.

49:13Jefferson Fisher:I'm talking you're dealing with somebody who's a toxic personality and they just go silent on you as a term of punishment. They want you to come groveling back. not until you say oh i'm so sorry can you please come back to me will they you know graciously in their mercy go yes i guess you can talk to me again so there is absolutely a way to be taking it too far as with anything yeah it kind of sort of relates back to a couple of things we've already touched on one was when you were talking about maybe you're in a difficult conversation before you start reacting and just blurting out words right you're saying that first word is your breath.

49:54Right. Okay. So you're, what is that an inhale? Yeah. So it's, you would know

49:58Jefferson Fisher:this as a physiological sigh. It's where it's a double inhalation where it's about three seconds into your nose, two seconds in again at the top, and then all out through your nose again. Now, we can do that in a sense of very exaggerated. I'm not talking about the sigh of like what my five-year-old would do of like, like not, not that type of, not that type of breath, but you want to be able to use it and you can do it silently anytime right before you say something that you need a catch a moment or if somebody's saying something that's you can tell you it's you don't like and you're getting worked up you ever heard somebody like making an opinion or saying something you don't like and what happens you our bodies go like we everything we don't like it we kind of start to seize up we start we take a big breath we're like okay i don't i'm i don't i gotta i I got to get ready because why we're about ready to unleash all of our words.

50:51And so when you hold your breath, that's why your breath has really nowhere to go except to yell.

50:58Jefferson Fisher:Often it decreases communication. It's the same way of, you know how, at least if you're trying to find directions and you're trying to find a house and you have blaring music, you have to like turn down the music so you can, you know, like let me turn on this music so I can see. It's kind of that same mentality of when somebody's yelling, You can't really listen. Yeah, it's this whole, we see the world through the state of our nervous system, right? That person said that thing that you didn't like. And if you start to react and hold your breath, which may be understandable, right? You're changing the state of your nervous system.

51:32So everything is coming inward. Your focus is coming inward. You are getting prepared to fight. So of course, the next words you say are gonna come out with a certain energy. So I love that sort of idea that you make it. And, you know, that whole section in that chapter, you do sort of walk people through how you can practice this breath and get to the point whereby you're doing it naturally in conversation where the person doesn't even know that you're doing it. Yeah, and I'm happy to do it right now if you want to. Okay, all right.

52:02Jefferson Fisher:So if you're listening right now, let's practice this. I call this a conversational breath. And it's a breath that you can use, and nobody's really going to know that you're doing it. There's nothing special. It's the choice to be intentional with your breath, and let's do it together. So it's all going to be through your nose, and it's going to be a double inhale, meaning we're going to inhale twice. Ready? So if you're listening, we're going to go three seconds in through your nose, two more at the top, and then all out through your nose. Now, just listening to us right now, your shoulders should have dropped just a little bit.

52:33Jefferson Fisher:You're going to feel just a little bit calmer. That's your go-to when somebody is saying something you don't like or you're about to respond. So right now, I want you, Rangan, to continue to do the conversational breath and I'm going to continue to say some things to you. So, Rangan, yes, I understand you have a podcast and yeah, it's a health podcast. In fact, it's the number one health podcast in the world. But you know what? I don't know if you're doing as well as you need to. I mean, you could be these lights. Have you seen these cameras? I don't know if I even really like these microphones.

53:03Jefferson Fisher:Now see, as you're talking to me right now, I see, I didn't even realize that you're breathing any differently than anybody else. And so anytime somebody's saying something that's agitating to you in that sense, it's allowing you to see the depth, right? It's allowing you to see the cause rather than getting worked up and holding your breath to fight the symptoms. Yeah, it's amazing because you're slowing everything down, right? So, you know, using that analogy being in the car again, if your car is going fast down the street, you're not gonna be able to take everything in, right? Because everything's going back quickly.

53:36You slow down your car and go down the street. You can suddenly see everything clearly. I saw that number. I saw that number. You know, that's what going, there's a cat coming, whatever it might be, right? So when we slow everything down, our perspective is different. We see more clearly. So clearly in a conversation, especially a conversation that perhaps isn't going the way that you want it to. If you're able to slow things down, you're going to be more present. You're going to have that separation between the stimulus, the words you don't like, and the response you're about to give. Exactly.

54:12Jefferson Fisher:Time has a way of sifting out priority. We all know we've had these moments and conversations that feel really intense with that friend at the cafe. The next day, you know what? That conversation really didn't matter all that much. Or a week goes by and you go, why did I ever react that way? But in the moment you felt that it did. In the moment it was everything. And then, or you get that email, you read that email at work and you want to, it gets you all worked up and you're ready to send that, that nasty response back. But something happens and you go, you know what, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna put this down.

54:48Jefferson Fisher:You read it again the next day. Yeah. That's not even worth my response. Exactly. Yeah. That's the power of silence. Absolutely. Right? Yes. It's kind of interesting. You are teaching people how to have better conversations. But at the same time, I would imagine, and I think you've hinted at this already, that you've always been pretty good at communicating. Yes. Yeah. Okay. I would probably say a similar thing about myself. I think as a doctor, I feel that's always been one of my strengths with my patients, my ability to really listen, pay attention, and then communicate effectively with them.

55:26I don't think I was taught how to do that. Maybe I picked it up from the people around me. but although I feel I was intuitively quite a good communicator, I feel I've got better over the years. So I feel it's a skill that, although I was pretty good at, I think I've got better at it. Now, what has helped me get better at it? I think if I think about my marriage, as we're having this conversation, it's almost 18 years since I was married. Since I got married. Yeah. And, you know, our marriage is fantastic. And I think one of the things that has made it more fantastic now than maybe in the early days is collectively our ability to communicate as a couple has got better.

56:15And certainly on a personal level, I feel I've really learned some new skills about how to communicate better within my relationship. But I also believe that this podcast has helped me become a better communicator okay so um as you know this is a long form podcast okay it's long form intentionally i'm not interested in quick fancy sound bites i want deep meaningful conversations with people that i'm curious about yeah that's always been the name of the game on this show and it continues to be today and every summer i stop the podcast for six weeks. Okay, it's the children are on summer holidays.

56:57My wife is the producer of the podcast. And so for us, it's really important to have some time away from this show. Even though the whole world is saying you can't stop, you need to keep going. That's a separate matter, right? But we take a break every summer. And every summer, whilst I'm on break, I reflect on what can I improve? What can I do differently? How can I make the show even better? You know, how can I become a better communicator? And a few years ago, the insight I had over the summer break was to embrace silence more, right? So you talk in your book about how silence can be a superpower.

57:37And I would say maybe three or four summers ago, I came back and intentionally started to utilize silence much more. And I think that's enhanced the quality of the conversations. and so my thinking was very much wrong you don't have to rush right there's no time pressure here you've got all the time in the world in a natural conversation because I never regard these as interviews right yeah if you want to interview I'm the wrong podcast right these are all about conversations and I realized that well in real life conversation there are sometimes pauses sometimes the next thing to say isn't there at the tip of your tongue sometimes you have to kind of pause and reflect and let what was just said land.

58:24You also have to trust yourself, right? Okay, I don't need to think about the next thing I'm going to say. I can just pay attention to what Jefferson is saying. And then when he finishes, I need to trust that the right thing to come next will come out of my mouth, right? So that's a rather long-winded of me trying to say that when I read you write about Sun that's been a superpower I thought I love that because I feel that's one of the things that I've really embraced on this show and I think it's one of the things that has really improved the quality of conversations on this show I think that's spot on

59:01Jefferson Fisher:for for your listeners I would ask two questions number one have you ever really given thought guide. . To how you're communicating, how your voice is representing you, not just how you sound, that's personal to you, but the words that you choose. More than likely, you've spent some amount of money on a better health. Maybe you've changed a diet. Maybe you've read some books. Maybe you've gone to some conference. Whatever. We invest a lot in a lot of things. but have you ever actually invested in the thing you do every day? And that is getting discipline about how you communicate, actually asking yourself, how do you communicate?

59:51Jefferson Fisher:That's question number one. Question number two is why are you rushing? Why are you rushing? I feel like we rush all the time. I mean, I know I rush my son sometimes. I'm like, all right, come on, get your shoes on. Come on, get your shoes on. We got to go. To what? A kid's birthday party that's, you don't have to be on time for. I mean, it's not the end of the world. Why do we always feel like we have to rush, rush, rush? There is something so beautiful about having a conversation with your best friend that has no time constraints, that has no rush. And you can say something. And just like you said, you're able to just sit with it, land, let their words sit and just appreciate the moment that you're able to connect with someone.

1:00:42Jefferson Fisher:And beautiful, wonderful things happen when you simply slow down the conversation. And that's exactly, if you want to have better conversation, you slow it down. If you want to deal with difficult conversation, if you're really worried about a conversation you're about to have, slow it down. I promise you, you're going to end up having a better outcome. Yeah, I love that. Just while we're talking about silence, right? And the incredible power of silence and communication. Going back to those three tools to stay in control of the moment. I kind of feel that all three of them in some way speak to the power of silence.

1:01:19I don't know if you would necessarily agree with that. But those three tools were your first word is your breath. Your first thought is a quick scan. and your first conversation is a small talk, right? Let's just go through that. And maybe we can go through that in the context of an individual who's maybe just about to enter conflicts with their partner. It is a super common, right? So because if we can do it through that, I'm hoping that someone can, you know, next time to win that scenario, maybe in an hour's time, maybe tomorrow, hopefully they can go, okay, all right, let me just remember what Jefferson said, right?

1:01:55Because I think they kind of speak to silence as well. Each one does. Yeah. And they're simple, quick tools in different ways of regulating your nervous system.

1:02:05Jefferson Fisher:So let's put it in two different scenarios for the listeners. One, we can have a personal relationship with your significant other. The other is a workplace where somebody is asking you something of an important project, whatever it is. It's going to be the same outcome either way. So these tools that I provide in the first how to say things with control, ultimately are different ways of regulating your nervous system. First word being your breath. In either context, it allows you to, where somebody's accusing you of something, you're able to slowly use your breath and kind of understand keeping yourself from getting emotionally flooded.

1:02:41Jefferson Fisher:It's nothing more simple than that. You're using your breath to feel a little bit more ground in the conversation, just like we did a minute ago. Now, a quick scan of what is what I call a quick scan. It's nothing than asking yourself, what am I feeling in this moment? And I like to use the phrase, I can tell. So let's say you're in a conversation with your significant other. Maybe it's over the dishes and all of a sudden it blends into the laundry and who does what, and you don't keep up your fair share or whatever it is. Instead of leading with you and you never and you always, which I promise you is only going to add another layer of argument about whether you always or never do it.

1:03:22Jefferson Fisher:And then somebody is going to say, well, give me an example, name the last time that I, and then it's just a competition of who can, has the better memory. And of course you have the better memory. I don't remember. Instead, a quick scan is saying, I can tell I'm getting defensive. I can tell I'm getting upset. I can tell I'm not ready for this conversation so many times we push conversation on our time frame and not the other person's and so if you're feeling pressured in a conversation say instead of reacting and getting defensive and emoting on that it's to be able to say i can i can tell i'm getting upset i can tell i'm feeling sad i can tell that's making me that's making me angry so step one is you take that slow intentional breath which helps to calm things down and regulate your nervous system step two is this quick scan right that you're just going through your body what that wears that tightness what am i actually feeling and then you use that scan to say i can tell i'm feeling something yes so that's a way of communicating with the other person so for example it might be i can tell that i'm feeling a bit wound up at the moment so i don't think it's the best time to have this conversation i can tell i'm not feeling myself i mean that right there is a powerful tool in, in, in marital relationships.

1:04:43Jefferson Fisher:Instead of saying, what's wrong with you? Instead of forcing that it's the, I can tell I'm, I'm feeling off right now. I can, I can tell I'm tired. So, okay. So if you just say that phrase, could your partner then not go, okay, but what's that got to do with what I just said? Like, so I'm trying, I'm trying to just play devil's advocate. Yeah, no, I love it. So you're, you're, you're using that to tell your partner or your work colleague or whoever it might be that you have a certain emotional state. Yes. But then do you need to go the next step and then say, what is the implication of that emotional state?

1:05:19So it depends.

1:05:20Jefferson Fisher:Maybe that is the goal of saying, let's say you just got done with a full busy day. You've done a bunch of podcasts, you're doing work and you got the kids in bed and you're finally at home. And all of a sudden your spouse wants to have the most important conversation ever right in that moment. And you're just, you're drained, you're tired. And instead of going, you know what, I don't really want to talk about, can you just, and you're starting to react negatively in that conversation. You're starting to really just be negative on the whole moment. Instead of saying, like, I can tell I am not ready for this conversation.

1:05:50Jefferson Fisher:If we can talk about this in the morning, I'm going to be a whole lot better for it. Or if we can push this just a few minutes, or let's say it's in the work context and you can say, like, I can tell that I'm feeling uncertain about this, or I can tell I still need a little bit more clarity here. It's not, it's not saying I don't want to have conversation. And I'm not saying you need to have that every time you have a conversation. This is simply a tool of if you feel like you're having an emotion in that moment, when you claim it, you control it. And so whenever you can say it out loud, it's much better than behaving on that.

1:06:26Jefferson Fisher:So let's say you say something that gets me defensive. I can, I can tell rather than me going, me, no, no. What about you? Oh, you think that, and I'm starting to react on that defensiveness rather than me saying, you say that same thing. And I go, I can tell that's getting me defensive. That right there is a wonderful way of just like writing it down and putting it on a piece of paper. Now we know that that is not something I'm, I'm going to be talking about. And in fact, it's at least more information for the people who's, who you're talking to. So it's not a one, two, three. It's not you have to first raise your breath, then you have to do a quick scan, then you have to do a small talk.

1:07:03Jefferson Fisher:These are all different tools that if you're feeling something overwhelmed in that moment, it's much better to say with your spouse, I can tell I'm feeling overwhelmed. Yeah. Then reacting on that overwhelmed feeling. Yeah, I love that. It's so powerful. And I would say that that alone is possibly one of the most influential things I've changed in my marriage in terms of the way I communicate with my wife. It's really about self-awareness, isn't it? And the example you gave actually was not an uncommon scenario in the sense that my wife and I have quite different body clots. I love to go to bed early and get up early.

1:07:44She would rather go to bed late and wake up a bit later, right? And so I'm team wife.

1:07:51So it did not used to be uncommon that when I'm trying to wind down for that, that Vid wants to go through something deep or important. Yes. Okay.

1:08:02Jefferson Fisher:Yeah. And so I would say one of the things that I've learned to do is be able to now calmly, I hope, and I think say, hey, listen, I know this is super important. I'm so tired at the moment. I actually don't think we're going to get a great outcome from this conversation right now. Well, something to that effect. And actually, it is game changing that kind of stuff because if you don't say it, right? Or you get frustrated or not, you know, A, you can't expect the other person to mind read, which is the biggest problem in relationships. It's like, no, why don't I just tell you calmly, hey, can we fix a time tomorrow to go through this?

1:08:40Because I can see that it's important

1:08:41Jefferson Fisher:or whatever it might be. Yes, now you got it. Yeah. How many times, I mean, even in my own marriage, I'm like, I am in bed closing my eyes and she will go. So I was just thinking and I'm like, what are we? Oh, you want to talk about this now? Like, you kind of have that. And yeah, what I like to teach is don't wait until you have 10 % of yourself for 100 % of a conversation. You each have a battery. And what happens a lot is we lead to negative consequences when we're each in the red. We're in low battery modes. So you're more agitated. You're hungry. You're tired. You don't feel good. You want, and so certain conversations, it's not like it's a simple, hey, let's remember to buy more milk tomorrow.

1:09:26Jefferson Fisher:We're not talking about that stuff. I'm talking like the real conversations that are outcome determinative of what's happening with the kids, the kids schedule. And she might be telling me something where I'm fading into the night and that's when she wants to lay out the, we need to agree on every where you're going to be, this, who's going to pick up who and I'm not going to remember this right in this moment, but sure, go ahead and say. So yeah, what's most important is one, you don't dismiss it. You can't be dismissive of it because if you're like, can we just talk about this later? That's going to feel very dismissing because to them, to whoever you're talking to, it's on their mind.

1:10:01Jefferson Fisher:It doesn't mean that is wrong. And sometimes they need to get it out so they can sleep. And so, and I've felt that that way before, But if you ask somebody to push a conversation because it's going to lead to a better outcome, they will always say yes. If you say, is this something we have to agree on right now? Most of the time, the answer is no. You will always push it. But if you tell them that you're going to have a better conversation, better outcome, if we postpone this 30 minutes, an hour to the next morning, they will say yes. They won't say no to it. Yeah, no, I love it. What about this lesson?

1:10:37I love this one. you don't have to attend every argument you're invited to.

1:10:44Jefferson Fisher:Yeah. That's brilliant. Thank you. It is a mindset of instead of the default where somebody is engaging an opinion with you, and we're opinion making machines. Something happens in the world. Where does everybody turn to? Social media to share their opinion to their audience of six people that are on their Facebook. or something. And they go and they flood all the comments of how much they agree they disagree, and who's attacking who, and who's a snowflake, and who's the whatever. And that kind of behavior solves is nothing. And in fact, it's very draining. In fact, if we want to say that's a symptom of a very bad health, you know, a lot of the times those kind of people are unhealthy, not just physically, but mentally unwell.

1:11:34Jefferson Fisher:All right. So if you want to make sure that you Stop attending every argument you're invited to. You need to understand that there's a priority of what's important in your life. There are people that disagree with you, and there are people who maybe don't even like you. Most likely, if they don't like you, they're not that important. Who do you want to keep in your life? Who do you want to surround yourself with? And I feel like anytime somebody gives you an invitation to an argument, we go, oh, yep, absolutely, check yes, I will be attending. and that's a that's a one-way ticket to bad health it comes down to emotional awareness self-awareness emotional regulation doesn't it because when you are more self-aware and emotionally regulated i think it becomes easier to not attend every argument when your nervous system is in high alert when you've been busy with work all day, you didn't take a lunch break, you're in sort of that stress mode.

1:12:37It's sometimes harder to separate. And I think sometimes fear is also what gets in the way of many things in our life, but also our ability to communicate well. And I think the more we're better to emotionally regulate, the more better able we are to go, hey, you know what? I don't want to get involved with that. Something I've learned being online, sharing information for about 12 years now is I don't have to have an opinion on everything. Yeah.

1:13:09Jefferson Fisher:Or you can have an opinion and not share it. Yeah. I certainly don't need to have a public opinion on everything. Now people can expect me to. I should be commenting on this event. Great. No problem. I don't think I should. right i don't want to and ultimately it's up to me what i what i will and what i won't communicate on right it's kind of interesting what have you learned right this is interesting you were already an exceptional communicator you started sharing things online in 2022 so about three years or so you've had a lot of experience with comments on social media so what what has being on social media and reading comment sections taught you about other human beings you know i i'll tell you i'm blessed with a wonderful audience i i can probably count on one hand truly the amount of times i've had a a negative troll type of just nasty comment which is just wonderful and most of the time they're, they're bots.

1:14:13Jefferson Fisher:You know, they're not, they're not real. Um, but what I have seen, of course, because I'm on social media, like you are, I've seen people leave negative, horrible comments in YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, you name it, where the quick little clapback that's ugly, maybe on somebody's weight, appearance, looks, what they said, and it gets a lot of likes, like a crazy amount of likes because there's this anonymity of being behind the keyboard and you almost in some sense get rewarded for it. When somebody is liking your comment, what do you encourage to do? say more ugly things to get more like an appreciation and that dopamine hit of you're doing something well.

1:15:08Jefferson Fisher:So what I have seen is that people in comments can be, I've seen it both ways. I've seen the negative side of it and it's detrimental. I've also seen the very positive side of people can create a community in the comments. And you take something like TikTok, for example, sometimes the comments are more entertaining than the actual content itself. People immediately, what they would say, run to the comments because there's so much interaction or things that are funny. People are hilarious. I mean, one thing about social media is that there's so many talented people and so many funny people that you would never know that, you know, they're totally, totally, um, total introverts, but they're funny and creative and things you would never be able to see in the world and environment that you're in.

1:15:57Jefferson Fisher:So I've been blessed with being able to see the positive. I've been blessed with being able to see the negative of it in social media. And I find, I mean, I'm certainly a product of it. I wouldn't be here with you today had people not resonated with the content that I make. I would bet that one of the reasons you don't get many negative comments is because of your energy. People respond to energy. They do. We all respond to energy and the vibe of the people around us. And so if you're putting out content with a really warm, compassionate, grounded energy, with a real desire to help people, it's just not gonna lead to that many people, you know, trying to meet that energy with division and criticism.

1:16:51Do you know what I mean? Whereas some people, their whole brand is about calling out or this is what's toxic or whatever it might be. Whatever it is. So of course that energy is gonna attract more energy like that, which is super interesting. I mean, I also very rarely get negative comments, but I've always had a rule actually an internal rule with myself which is which maybe I didn't follow in the early days of being you know online sharing information but I've learned through the process which is it comes back to some of your teachings in this book right which is if I'm not feeling calm do not respond to a comment that's so true you know don't do it it's never going to come go well you know only respond so sometimes it's like I think actually that's worthy of a response.

1:17:36I feel that'd be good to interact with that, but only do it when you're feeling calm. And calm doesn't just mean my internal state. It also means what's going on in my life. It's more important that I'm going to spend quality time with my children or my wife or going around to see my mom. Actually, you know what? That is more important than a random comment on my Instagram page.

1:18:00Jefferson Fisher:Absolutely. And probably the truth is that's one comment out of 200. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so you have, you might have 199 wonderful comments and we see that one and we kind of go and we want to comment right there. And you know, it does nothing. I get questions. I know you get questions of people. When I post, I get negative comments and or, you know, how do you handle it? And I go, do you have to? What do you, I mean, the algorithm doesn't care if it's happy or sad. It's a comment. at the same time do you know this person are you going to actually sit down and spend time with this person what's going on in your life i sort of in in my in my last book uh jeff said make change at last there's a chapter called take less offense okay i think you'd really enjoy it actually and um in that chapter i make the case that offense is something we choose to do right nothing is inherently offensive because if it was we'd all find the same thing offensive Yeah, I love that.

1:18:59The fact that we don't means it's not the comment or the thing that was causing the offense. It was something within us that was being activated. Right. I'm not excusing poor behavior here. Sure. I'm just saying that nothing is inherently offensive. We're choosing to take offense, right? And I sort of also make the case in that chat set that on some level, taking offense is actually or could be argued to be a little bit arrogant. and the reason I say that is because if you think about it rationally there's 8 billion people on the planet right is it reasonable to believe that every other human being on this planet is going to have the same view and perspective on the world as I do no right it's not reasonable at all clearly some people in the world are going to see the world definitely from me they're going to have different ethics different religion different way of being brought up different levels of trauma or whatever it might be, they're going to see the world differently.

1:19:57So they may actually disagree with me on certain things. They may see things completely differently. It doesn't mean that they're wrong and I'm right or I'm right and they're wrong. It just means they see it differently. And I kind of feel bringing it back to your book, one of the things I love about it is I think there's a real deep compassion behind the tools, which relates to what I just said, which is you don't know what's going on with that person. You know, what the person you see is not always the person you're talking to. Yes. And that's, I think, one of the things I love the most about it.

1:20:31Jefferson Fisher:Yeah. Well, thank you very much. I think you're absolutely right on, you choose to take offense to certain things. And I'm of the mindset of anytime you just hear change, you hear about change. It makes you uncomfortable. You hear about change in the world or somebody having a different political view than you. That's change. You're hearing that makes you go, I don't like that. So whenever you find and hear that change that's being communicated to you and it makes you uncomfortable, that creates a lot of that fear because we like what is safe. We like what is known. Let's say I want to change your mind about something and you have this political view.

1:21:17Jefferson Fisher:Let's say it's a religious view, for example. And I say that as something that's typically very crystallizing as part of somebody's identity. Well, if I just expect in one conversation, I'm going to entirely disprove everything that you've ever believed, problems are going to happen. Because what's most likely is I'm not just saying you're wrong. I'm saying your parents are wrong. I'm saying your grandmother's wrong. I'm saying that thing that you learned when you were a kid and you've known your entire life is all wrong. And people will do anything far past the point of just deciding not to listen to you in order to preserve what they know.

1:21:57Jefferson Fisher:And it is so easy for people. That's why a lot of times in a political climate, they're okay with one candidate doing it. They're not okay with another candidate doing it. They're okay if it's the side I am comfortable with. I'm not good with if it's a side I don't agree with. Why? Because we feel comfortable with what we know because it comes down from the people that put their value in us. And we will defend the people in our lives that have contributed to that view. So in other words, you can say I'm wrong. Yeah. But if you're saying my dad's wrong, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

1:22:31Jefferson Fisher:You don't get to say my dad's wrong. I'm the one. And so we get defensive on behalf of the people that help shape our identity. And so we will do anything to the point of just refusing to listen, even to logic, even to evidence, even somebody presents you with evidence of saying something of why your position is wrong on it. We will boldface just disagree with it in order to protect the values that we've been raised with. Yeah, it's a great point. I mean, obviously, you are an American citizen. And, you know, American politics is very interesting. That's a great word. Yeah, let's keep it to that word.

1:23:11Jefferson Fisher:It's very interesting. And I think 12 months ago, the statistic that I came across was that one in six US adults are not talking to another family member because of a difference of opinion over politics, which I found utterly remarkable. right and really just speaks to what you just said right yes and i guess that in many ways highlights why a book like yours is so important right because it should be possible for two people with completely different religions or completely different political beliefs within the same family it should be possible to have a conversation with them yes and still love them and still respect them.

1:23:59You know, of course, people will argue that there are extremes. There are certain things that people can't get over. Okay. But as a general principle, you should be able to get on with people who see the world differently than you do.

1:24:11Jefferson Fisher:Yes. Which is something you don't see online much. But if I think about even my best mates from university, like there's four or five of us, and, you know, we'd be there for each other. You know, we could rely on each other for anything. Doesn't mean we all see the world the same way. Right. We, you know, we have differences of opinions of those. We're still best mates. But it seems as though the world, at least online, well, I say online is getting more divided, but that statistic would suggest that actually offline as well, it's getting more divided as well. Yeah, I definitely believe so because we're not allowing real conversation.

1:24:49Jefferson Fisher:We expect that we can solve all issues in one conversation. In fact, I'll go even more. We feel like we can solve everything and change someone's mind by saying one sentence. And we just think because I said it, well, then they have to wholeheartedly swallow it, agree with it, take it and say, I'm the most amazing genius they've ever heard. Yes, of course you're right. And that's just never going to happen. And instead, you have to see that if you want to change someone's mind, you better be ready to have multiple conversations. I'm talking conversations over years. Things that you're going to have to invest in asking questions and finding out why someone believes what they do.

1:25:30Jefferson Fisher:When you actually take the time, rather than fighting the opinion they have, you take the time to find out why they have it and how they learned it and where they picked it up and when they learned it. All of that information is going to give you way more knowledge and realize it's not the symptom, it's the cause. Yeah. Is it even possible to change someone's mind? It's like maybe the goal is never to change someone's mind. Maybe the goal should be to learn. Yeah, I like, well, I would reframe that. Yes, you can change someone's mind, but what you said is right. You have to change the goal. Too often we put a bar on conversations.

1:26:15Jefferson Fisher:And that bar is they have to admit I'm right. They have to say they're wrong. that is rarely, if ever, going to happen. I can't get my child to say that. I think I'm going to have someone who's a grown adult say that, who's had a year or years, a whole life of experiences. And I think just because I uttered sound into the air, they're automatically just going to go, the scales will fall from my eyes, how wrong I am. That's not going to happen, right? And so you can absolutely change someone's mind, but one, you have to live it. You can't just say it and there'll be misalignment in how you're living.

1:26:58Jefferson Fisher:Two, yes, evidence helps. But sometimes when you're trying to push your opinion, that makes me come closer more. So for example, the more I tell you you're wrong, the more convinced you're going to be that you're right. Yeah. You're going to protect what you know because this is the one thing you feel like you do know that you're sure about. Why? Because your dad told you about it when you were five. So you will wrap yourself onto that memory. So can you change someone's mind? Yes, 100 % you can. But you cannot do it when you raise the bar as I'm right, you're wrong. Instead, I'm telling you to lower the bar.

1:27:38Jefferson Fisher:That's what the book does. It tells you to lower the bar. Instead of saying, I need to prove that I'm right, my goal is to understand where you're coming from. My goal is to ask more questions than I say things. My goal is to, am I showing appreciation for the time that we're spending in this conversation? When you set the bar really low, just making sure you feel understood and they feel understood and they feel acknowledged. Set a bar of how can I show that I acknowledge them in this conversation? That's going to lead to more of what you want rather than setting that bar that you can never meet.

1:28:13Jefferson Fisher:Yeah. Some of what you just said there speaks to one of the other life lessons in the book, which is never win an argument. Yeah. What does that mean? Whenever you set out to win an argument, you will lose the relationship over time. If I were to say, do you know anybody in your life who always has to be right? They always have to have the final say. They always have to have the last word. Those kind of people are not someone anybody wants to be around. It's typically an audience one. And the more you try to win, improve, you lower the quality and connection of that relationship. What you've really won is their contempt.

1:28:52Jefferson Fisher:Let's say you and I are in an argument. Rather than me trying to understand you, I have to win. Win often sounds like I'm the last one to talk. That's what we typically have in conversations. The one who says something last is the one who somehow wins. Maybe you said something really ugly because you and I have been personal friends for forever and I know that one button that I can say that speaks right to your insecurity and all of a sudden you shut down. Does that mean I win? Probably not, but that's the feeling. Or if you and I are in a conflict of opinion and I'm the one that says, no, I have to be right.

1:29:28Jefferson Fisher:And you go, you know what? Fine. You're right. You're right. Is that really winning? Over time, they're going to feel contempt for you. What you really want is to be the first to apologize and that's that's kind of the procedure of of arguments the person who said the worst thing last that's typically the one who has to apologize first what i like to teach is instead of trying to win the argument you look to unravel them you find the knots in the conversation and get really quick and really proficient at loosening them why do you think so many people take things personally when they're having a conversation

1:30:11Jefferson Fisher:our default is to make things about me make things about i not so much you and it's just a shift of perspective that we make everything everything about about us like as me as a young associate at the law firm us associates um would complain about the partners we go the the partners don't care. Partners don't listen to us. All they do is think about themselves. When I made partner, I got a, within probably five minutes, I got an email and I thought, these associates, all they do is care about themselves. You know, it's very us versus them mentality. When you're the employee, you hate the management.

1:30:56Jefferson Fisher:When you're the management, you hate the employee. You always find a way to make it about you. It's our default. It's why we take things personally. It's why when you, if I were to text you okay, you're not going to be, look at that, look how nice Jefferson is. He said okay in the happiest way possible. Instead, you're going to go okay. What kind of okay is that? Is that a okay okay? Or is that like a okay? We find ways of reading the negative in text and email, any transactional correspondence like that. How much of what you teach then can be applied to electronic communication? Because that is a way that many people converse these days, right?

1:31:40So sure, when we're face-to-face in a room with someone, we can apply certain things, we can pick up on nonverbal communication and get a sense of what they're saying to us. But on a text message or an email, things start to go wrong very, very quickly. Are there any tips that you have for us to use in that form of communication?

1:32:02Jefferson Fisher:Yeah, so there's absolutely a place for the electronic communication. I'm talking text and email specifically. It's efficient. It does not mean it's effective all the time. Now, I can communicate with you face-to-face and in a text, it's going to be very different. For example, this was a few years ago. My mom decided to text me out of the blue. She was asking me about the family car. It was a white Nissan that I had had through college and law school and had passed down through my siblings. I had no idea where it was. Out of the blue, my mom texts me and she said, do you know the mileage to the white Nissan?

1:32:44Jefferson Fisher:I said, no, ma 'am. She said, you don't know the mileage to the white Nissan? I said, no, ma 'am. This is all through text. She goes, okay, I just thought you would know the mileage to the white Nissan. I said mama I don't know how else to tell you I don't know the mileage to the white Nissan immediately she replied that's fine Jefferson I just don't like your attitude like she just read everything of she thought I was being disrespectful simply by text and so what do I do I instantly pick up the phone to call her so if you want some tools on how to improve remove the text or emails would be one, when you can get on the phone with them.

1:33:27Jefferson Fisher:If you find that there's any type of dissonance, if you find that there's some kind of friction, hear their voice. Text does not convey emotional nuance. There's a difference between seeing the warmth of someone's smile and reading it in an emoji. I like to compare it to, you can describe a sunset. that it doesn't even compare to seeing a sunset. Very, very different thing. So they need to hear your voice. So if you find yourself right into conflict, use your voice. Number two, there's a phrase that I like to use really for a lot of different concepts. But if you find that you're taking something personally, meaning you're assuming someone's intent, for good or for bad, usually it's for bad.

1:34:12Jefferson Fisher:Begin with, did you mean? in text we i would say the biggest culprit is we especially in relationships you use very short language okay sounds good cool all right and you read the negative into that maybe you didn't put an emoji in it and so they they just automatically assume that you're you're upset you're mad or you get an email from somebody somebody a boss or somebody you work with and they send an email and you feel like it's kind of rude. If you respond with, did you mean, did you mean for that to sound short? Did you mean for that to sound upset? Did you mean for that to sound curt? Like whatever it is, whenever you say, did you mean, it allows the other person some benefit of the doubt to allow them to go, oh no, no, no, no.

1:35:02Jefferson Fisher:Sorry. I was just, I was, I was in the middle of this. I was running an errand. I was, I just gotten out of the car, whatever it is, you're giving some more context rather than trying to take it personally every single time. I find that that is something that's going to be very beneficial. And three would be limit the conversation. Don't write in paragraphs. That's not going to go well. You want to write very concisely. That makes it much more clear. So if you can't say it really in three sentences, you need to rethink it. That speaks to something I really wanted to talk to you about. today on the show okay and it's from page 14 of your book so early on and it's all about speaking directly okay now let me just explain a bit of background to why I've underlined this paragraph and why I want to discuss it with you so interestingly enough as I think I've already shared with you when I started going out with my now wife.

1:36:05She was a criminal barrister in London. And one of the things that we both noticed very early on in our relationship is that we communicate quite differently. Vid is very concise and very particular with her words. And she's very direct. When we first met, I wasn't. I wasn't concise and I certainly wasn't direct. I would go around the houses, right? I don't know if that's an American phrase or not, but I wouldn't get to the point.

1:36:39Jefferson Fisher:It would say beat around the bush. Beat around the bush. Okay. Right. Now it's really interesting. Initially, I would say, because I wasn't used to direct communication, it's certainly not how I had communication modeled growing up, right? It certainly wasn't how I did things. And I think I had a lot of insecurity. So I would mask those insecurities by overusing words, over explaining, over apologizing, whatever it might be, right? I would say because of that, or a consequence of that was I found, initially at least, Vid's direct communication, sometimes I found it quite blunt, and that's quite harsh.

1:37:20You know, I still fell madly in love with her and married her, right? So to be clear, that would - Might have worked. It might have worked. But it's funny that the way I now see communication, I think, wow, that was awesome, right? Because one of the real benefits of the way Vid would communicate to me early on in our relationship was that, you know, she wasn't afraid to say what she thought. I would be, not because of it, just because of my own personal insecurities, I would beat around the bush, right? And not get to the point. and I've learned over the years that actually speaking directly you know I would say a compassionate directness I think it's just a wonderful way to communicate because you you know you're not imagining what do they really mean I know when Vid says something I know what she means if she's happy with me doing something she'll say if she's not she'll tell me I don't have to imagine you know was she just saying that yeah right and so can I just read this section back to you.

1:38:19It's your book, but I really liked it and I wanted to discuss essentially why you think speaking directly is so important. Okay, here it is. Speaking directly doesn't mean you lack empathy or consideration for the other person's feelings. Being direct means that you have the self-assurance that you can respect the other person as well as yourself enough enough to communicate your needs openly without fear. Jefferson, I freaking love that paragraph, right? I've been rereading it because I've been thinking, actually, that's something I still feel I could do better. Certainly in electronic communication, I would say I still probably write quite lengthy emails.

1:39:06I still treat it like a card. I was writing, you know, dear whoever, I hope you're well, you know, which I guess I would argue is polite. Right. But where's the balance, right? So talk to me about speaking directly. Why is it so important, do you think?

1:39:21Jefferson Fisher:Right. So this brings us into rule two, the say it with confidence. Just because it's polite doesn't mean it's honest. Just because it's polite doesn't mean that it's kind. Clarity is kind. And it can, I mean, being direct can be sometimes and oftentimes much kinder. When we beat around the bush and we have trouble landing the plane in conversation, it creates anxiety. It creates resentment. It breeds miscommunication. Why? Because what you feel like you said and you made it so plain, totally lost on me. Let me put it this way. People who can be direct with you and tell you what they want, It's very attractive in conversation, especially in relationships, because it says this is somebody who's assured of themselves.

1:40:14Jefferson Fisher:This is somebody who knows what they want. This is somebody who knows where they're going. And a lot of the times you're removing the insecurity. You're removing the feeling of not feeling safe. So anytime you can be direct in conversation and we can talk every little tool about it, What you're doing is using your assertive voice. Most likely, and I would ask this of any of the listeners, is how was communication modeled for you in your life? Did your parents argue in front of you? Did you even see your parents argue? Or did they argue behind closed doors? Did you feel like as a kid you could speak out and disagree?

1:40:58Jefferson Fisher:Or did you feel you always had to be a little bit more quiet and let the other people talk? or when you wanted to disagree, you got squashed on and says, be quiet. You're to be seen, not heard. And so understand that every bit of that, and hopefully even listening, there might be a light bulb moment where you go, oh, okay, maybe that's where it's really come from. Maybe that's why I'm feeling that. Or it could be culturally. I've definitely noticed a difference here in England of there's a cultural shift in communication. It is very polite. it is a little bit more indirect a little bit softer that doesn't mean that it's wrong understand that you will get to a place where eventually you feel like your voice is not being heard and that that can become again unhealthy yeah i love what you said there about cultures and your experience having been in the uk for just what two or three days now yeah three days yeah and I would say that is a thing here you know where politeness is you know very much valued yeah but it can go too far I'm not saying we shouldn't be polite no for sure but you can be polite and not say what you mean yes is that really polite right yeah which I think happens a lot here well and I've certainly fallen into this trap before yeah well I mean tell you, as somebody who's an expert on the UK, that is, I've seen some episodes of The Crown.

1:42:33Jefferson Fisher:I know that there is certainly, I feel like in the culture, you need to put up a face of peace. We're all together. Everybody has the best face forward, even in times of internal conflict. You have to keep it all together. I don't know. It's post-war peace. I don't know if it's wanting everybody to feel like their unity is one. We have everything in order and there's a time and a place and what's polite and what's acceptable, what's not acceptable. So it's much more stringent in my opinion. Versus if you look at people in New York and you walk down the street, you're going to easily within a few minutes tell a very big difference in the way people communicate and even down in south where i'm i'm in texas people communicate very differently doesn't mean that it's wrong it's cultural but yes there's certainly you're right a time and place where being polite can go too far i know um i read a study once on how much more people in the uk apologize and use I'm sorry than those in the U.S., especially women.

1:43:49Jefferson Fisher:And it was just wild to me of, now I understand when I say apologies, I'm talking unnecessary apologies, not ones that you've actually made a mistake. It's the, I'm sorry, what? It's the, oh, I'm so sorry, I just not saw this. Or I had somebody two days ago, I ran into them by accident and she told me she was sorry. All right. So that is very, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. She's like, oh, sorry. And I was like, no, no, no, it was me. It was me who did that. Don't worry about it. And so there's a lot of, I find when I'm listening, there's a lot of add-ons to sentences in the UK. So it's like, they'll say something and then it'll be like, if you don't mind.

1:44:28Could we argue that it's cultural, but it's also that these phrases that we absorb growing up and we just start using, right? So literally, I think two days ago, I was in my kitchen with my wife and I was I can't remember who I was sending a text message to I don't know why I'd be even reading it out in essence I started off with hey whoever sorry to bother you yeah and then I was going to say what I meant and and Vid said to me are you putting sorry to bother you yeah I thought that's a good point actually because if you really unpick that and just zoom out. Exactly. Was I really sorry to bother that person?

1:45:09I don't think I was, right? So therefore, is that polite or is it actually disingenuous? Yes, great word. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I didn't use it.

1:45:19Jefferson Fisher:So I was like, I was calling myself up going, actually, yeah, anyway. That's perfect. Yeah, that's what I call undervaluing your words. So this is how you would typically start with, hey, hate to bother you. And it's like, you don't hate it or else you wouldn't be doing it. as, you know, I hate to bother you. Sorry to bother you. You can let me know if I'm wrong. By the way, anybody who says I could be wrong about this never thinks they're wrong about this. They always think they're right about it. Anybody who goes, I could be wrong about this. They don't think they're wrong about this. They think they're absolutely right about it.

1:45:51Jefferson Fisher:This is bonus stuff that's not in the book. This is a bonus concept. Yeah, or, you know, I had somebody on my team last year I brought on and she always would begin with, totally let me know if you hate this. and you know what once you started talking the first thought into my mind was god i hate this you know what i mean like you that's what happens when you say hey i hate to bother you and you go after a while you're like oh this is this is bothering me or this is very common in the u.s they might say this this is probably a dumb question and what happens the other person goes oh no no no there's no such thing as a dumb question they're like oh you're sure there's no i'm not have to ask my question and then and then all they do when you start talking is, this is the dumbest question.

1:46:32Jefferson Fisher:That's all you can think in your mind. So you're already undercutting your words. Instead of that, what I want you to do is use language that builds, use language that adds onto. So instead of saying, hate to bother you, you either remove it entirely, like in your text, great example, or it's, hey, I like to add on to a thought here. I like to add to what you said. I like to continue the conversation or I like to start a conversation about X, Y, and Z. You see how you're using forward momentum? Yeah, I love that. Yeah. And that's a whole lot better of adding onto, continuing, building upon rather than the hesitant language that feels like, oh no, you sure?

1:47:14Jefferson Fisher:Is that okay? I mean, you know, let me, let me know if I'm wrong here. You're trying to be as inconvenient as, as possible. And that can be unhealthy?

1:47:26When I write emails, perhaps to somebody who I haven't spoken to for a while, I will often say, hope you're well at the start, right? So I've noticed that my email communication and some of my teams is quite different. I guess you have to have a conversation about how are we treating email? A lot of the problems come when we don't have clarity. A lot of problems in relationships come from unmet expectations that were never expressed in the first place. Right. Right. And so I've noticed that I can write some quite lengthy emails. So I guess my question to you then, Jefferson, is not is there anything wrong, but how might you suggest I improve my writing style?

1:48:13Let's say I'm going to, I don't know, Emily for a few months. So I go, hey, Emily, hope you're doing well. Was just wondering if we could, or whatever it might be. Would you say that hope you're doing well is unnecessary? Because genuinely, I do hope she's doing well. So I don't think I'm lying. Help me understand that.

1:48:37Jefferson Fisher:We can throw this in a lot of different contexts. So there are phrases that we use that we really don't mean a lot. They don't mean anything. Most of the time they're adverbs. Like in the U.S., we have a problem with adverbs where we throw in just a lot. I just want to check in. Just eliminate the just. I wanted to just check in. You see how much more forward that is? Just eliminate. You're eliminating the hesitant language. Or adverbs of any word that ends in L-Y, really. Essentially, so basically, literally, clearly, obviously. any of that stuff you just can remove. What I like to teach is instead of filling your sentences full of ice cubes, you need to serve your words neat.

1:49:21Jefferson Fisher:Find ways of eliminating the stuff that you don't need. Now you say something like, I hope you're doing well. Do you think, is she sick? You know what I mean? Are you just hoping to find you well? I feel that that's also a very cultural thing. It's also a precursor of making yourself a little comfortable right before you say what you want to say. Same thing with you saying, just wondering if blah, blah, blah, blah, instead of just asking the question, would you like to go out with me on whatever, whatever. So anytime you are getting really fuzzy with your language, it creates a lot of miscommunication and it makes you sound more hesitant, makes you sound a little bit, oh, sure and unsafe.

1:50:02Jefferson Fisher:Now, let me say, how can we fix it? Right. How can we fix that? So one, you eliminate your adverbs. Two, I would for emails specifically. Let's say I tried, my general rule is if you can't say in three sentences, you need to rework it because it's lazy writing if they're long. Meaning that you really didn't put as much thought into the actual words as in you're just trying to find a way to make yourself feel better in that communication. It's the same thing with like small talk before having a hard conversation with somebody. You feel like you have to kind of warm up the chat before you can actually say what you need to say.

1:50:43Jefferson Fisher:So they're not going to be mad at you or disappointed with you in some sense. There's that quote, I think it was Mark Twain. It said, I would have written you a shorter letter if I'd had more time. Yeah. Yeah, so we often are not, we're not very choosy with our words. It creates a lot of length, which again creates opportunities for miscommunication. Yeah. I love that. It's something for me personally to reflect on. You know, certainly with each subsequent book I've written, I have very much challenged myself to make them as short as possible. You know, when I spend probably the same amount of time as writing it, as I do editing it, because it's always like, no, you said that in five paragraphs.

1:51:28Can you say that in three paragraphs? Yeah. Right. Really make every sentence count, which just makes it such a better reading experience for everyone. It's better writing. Every time. Easy to write 100 ,000, 150 ,000 word book, right? Just blurt it all out onto the page, whatever. It's hard to compress it down to whatever, 40 ,000 or 30 ,000.

1:51:48Jefferson Fisher:But it's worth the effort. Totally worth it. It's worth the effort. You take me as an attorney, right? I have to take often what's years of a problem with my client and I have to distill it in the very bite-sized things for the jury. They only have little questions on the jury verdict. Yes, no. Percentage, amount, they have very short little things. Meaning I have to take years of information. I have to take five books and I have to find a way to give it to them in two sentences. And so it's a habit of distilling words. It's simply a habit that you create of eliminating the excessive apologies.

1:52:29Jefferson Fisher:Instead of the, so sorry, I'm just not getting back to this. Use words of gratitude. dude. Thank you for your patience. And you know what the other person's going to think? I am so patient. Yes, I am. Thank you. Thank you for that. Thank you for your patience could be mean, damn, I've been really late at replying to this. Exactly. So you're sort of assuming in a nice way, thank you for your patience. You don't know that they've been patient. They could have been mad for the last 10 days that you haven't replied to their email. You got it. So is that disingenuous saying thank you for your patience?

1:53:00Jefferson Fisher:No, because in some sense, I would use it really in that sense as the noun. I mean, like I find that anytime you're waiting for somebody's response, there is some sense of patience, whether or not it's conscious or unconscious. Or you say it's, thank you for the time for me to think about this, or thank you for the chance to reply, or thank you for allowing me some time to sit with this. And whatever you're about to say next is going to sound very intentional. Why? Because you're taking time. The biggest thing is you don't want to say, I'm so sorry. So sorry. I'm now seeing this. So sorry. I'm just not getting back to you.

1:53:35Jefferson Fisher:Why? Because you had priorities. You have life. So this is really interesting. So actually you're not sorry, or you may not be sorry. It may be that, listen, yeah, just because you sent me an email doesn't mean that that was my priority at that particular time in my life when you sent it. Or ever. So therefore saying, I'm sorry for the, for the delay or whatever, you know, this is kind of interesting, is it? It's one of those throwaway polite, or what we think is a polite phrase to at least acknowledge to that person, right? Hey, listen, you sent this 10 days ago, I'm only replying now. But there is an undercurrent there where you are being disingenuous, because you may genuinely not be sorry.

1:54:18You may go, It could be that actually, this is the first time I've had time in 10 days and the inclination to even address this email. So why I'm pausing on these is because I feel I've got much better at removing these unnecessary add-ons. But they're still there, especially if I'm not paying attention. Like Vid, for example, my wife, she is naturally very succinct and concise. We've always had a joke about this in our relationship. Why use unnecessary words? Because it's like, she can say it in three words. She will say it in three words. And it's not always, I love you. I'm more and more team wife right now.

1:54:59Which is great. And I've learned from that. Okay, that's pretty cool to be able to do that. So yeah, I just find, I find this whole thing about unnecessary sentences really, really fascinating.

1:55:14Jefferson Fisher:Yeah, there is, I love it. And I also can't help it because when I hear people talking, here's another that a lot of people use. And it is, does that make sense? They will add that to the end of their sentence, right? And I know why they use it. People use it because they want to make sure that what they are saying makes logical sense. Those of you listening might use it with your patients. If you're a doctor, you might use it with your clients, your customers, whatever it is. You're using it to make sure that what you said makes logical sense. Which is a good thing. Which is a good thing. Now, what the other person hears is one of two things.

1:55:54Jefferson Fisher:They either hear that you don't think they're smart enough, so you need to make sure they understand it. Because you don't think they got it. You don't think they grasped it. Or you don't sound like you know what you're talking about. So you have to make sure that you know what you're talking about. Does that make sense? You know, I mean, that's, that's, that's what happens. So a lot of the times, let's say for a doctor, they might be explaining something very, very, very high, um, complex. And then they go, does that make sense? And the other person, they don't want to sound like they're dumb.

1:56:32Jefferson Fisher:They're going to go, oh yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And then inside they're going, no, that does not make sense at all. Most of the time when people are asked, does that make sense? We say yes, because we don't want to say no, because we don't want to seem like we're the dumb ones. So what I would change that to is what are your thoughts or what do you think? Or do you have any questions? That's really what you're asking for is engagement of if you have any input. And if you don't really want their input, it's better that you just don't say it. Yeah, that one's really interesting because I do use that.

1:57:09Okay, I do use does that make sense?

1:57:15Jefferson Fisher:It's not bad. No, no, but okay, so this is really interesting. So maybe, you know, I would use it to ensure that because I am keen that what I say lands. So I would make the case that I'm saying it out of respect to make sure that, hey, if it wasn't clear, please let me know and I can try and explain it a different way. But I agree with you also that it actually could, if you really want to check understanding, for example, there are other ways to say it which could be better. Absolutely. Yeah, that's exactly right. Man, I love this stuff. This is fun stuff. I love this stuff. Before we wrap this up, I'm interested in the fact that you're a drummer.

1:58:06Oh, yeah. Okay. So as we were chatting about before, we're both key musicians. We both played in bands for years. I am the singer and the front man. Okay. Knew it. Yeah. And interestingly, you're the drummer, right? And I'm thinking, okay, does that make sense to me from what I get from Jefferson, and his groundedness, his self-assuredness, his... Yeah, his persona.

1:58:35Jefferson Fisher:I don't think it does. Yeah, you're probably right. I've never been asked that question, but I'm seeing some similarities. So yeah, why do you think you became a drummer? I've always loved the drums, probably because I like the hit stuff with sticks. But if you look at the comparison of percussion and music, and we compare that to your words and communication, the song can sound very different depending on the drums the tempo are you going to use more of a kind of a reggae beat are you going to go halftime are you doing it are you doing something where you know these videos you can find online of people playing different drums different methods for different styles and you get a different totally different outcome my personality is that the drums set the tempo of the conversation or the music exactly same thing and so if i want to lead the communication i know i have to set the tempo so i have to if i want if things are going too fast i'm gonna pull back if i want to make you feel comfortable then i'm going to behave and act and communicate in the pocket so to speak you're not going too fast you're not dragging you're not rushing you're right exactly where everybody feels like they're not and that that that part uh and for anybody who's not familiar with in the pocket that's the part where you're listening in the in the music where everybody sounds like they're in sync and you start to kind of bob your head why because it sounds good to you it makes sense to you it's not something that's too too much it's not something that's too soft it's just easy listening and so that kind of genre is uh that's probably about right using the drumming analogy yeah it's funny i've been deep into your work the last couple of days and yesterday as part of my research when i found out you're a drummer i was like yeah i think that fits yeah i never thought i never thought i kind of think that fits i mean one thing i've always said is that you cannot you can't hide a poor drummer in a band yeah you can't hide a bad drummer in the same sense of it's you have to lead with your your words and you have to set the tone the pace and making sure that it's all in the pocket.

2:00:46Jefferson Fisher:I've always considered my personality as just always feeling like you're in the pocket. You feel comfortable, you feel confident. You don't have to feel like you're overreaching. You can feel like you can connect. Yeah. Yeah. That's so awesome. I love that. We could talk music forever. We could. Well, that kind of actually brings us full circle back to the start when you were telling me about that weekend when you were eight years old, when you went away with all the guys in your family, the trial lawyers. Because what I really got from that was that you learned that weekend that your voice was a powerful tool.

2:01:22And if you learn how to use that powerful tool, you can do amazing things out there in the world.

2:01:30Jefferson Fisher:Yeah. You can change your life. You can change your life. You know, as you say, you can change any relationship at any moment by changing the way you communicate right jefferson i love what you do i think this book is absolutely fantastic i think the content you put out online is so helpful for people to finish this conversation off for that person who feels that they're not a good communicator and feels that a lot of the problems in their life come from an inability to communicate effectively you've shared a lot of tips already throughout this conversation. Of course, there's a lot more in your book, but have you got any final parting words for that guy?

2:02:13Jefferson Fisher:Yeah. For the person who feels like their voice is not something they're proud of. One, I want them to understand where that comes from. I actually do the work to understand where does that come from in your life. Two, the fact that you're listening to this episode, all right, that means you're already on your way to improving the way you communicate. So hats off to you actually caring about your communication and choosing to invest in your communication. Three, I promise you that when you begin to feel comfortable, not just in your own skin, but in your words and understand the legacy you want to leave, the reputation you want to have, the person you want to be in their life, it truly comes from what you say.

2:02:58Jefferson Fisher:Magical things can happen. and understand that conflict can be used for good. Conflict is both positive and negative. Every decision you've made has been some sort of conflict. You had to leave one relationship to find another. You had to leave one job to find another. So understand we are always improving. I mean, you continue to improve, as you tell me, every four to six weeks you take with your family and you really think, how's this podcast gonna change? I take plenty of time to go, oh, how could I have improved that sentence? I don't want you to hear this episode and go, I guess they got it all together and I don't.

2:03:33Jefferson Fisher:We're always figuring out better ways to improve our life. There's one little quick trick that I'll give you, and it's because this is probably one of the most popular. When you feel like you have to disagree with somebody and you're a little hesitant on it and you don't really feel, you need to feel like you tell them, hope you're well, or you feel like you need to be a little soft about it. But what I would encourage you to say is instead of I disagree, change it to I see things differently. I see things differently. Ryan, you've already used this in our conversation today. And I think that's you already did without even knowing you're doing it.

2:04:12Jefferson Fisher:That's how good you are. When you say I see things differently, you're using words of perspective. So words like look, I look at it a different way. I take another approach. I see things differently. People won't get defensive. and it's a great way to start to hear the power of your own voice. If you want a better world, it begins with a better conversation. Yeah. Jefferson, the book is the next conversation. Argue less, talk more. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thanks for having me.

2:04:46Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. Do think about one thing that you can take away and apply into your own life. And also have a think about one thing from this conversation that you can teach to somebody else. Remember, when you teach someone, it not only helps them, it also helps you learn and retain the information. Now, before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday Five. It's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness. In that email, I share exclusive insights that I do not share anywhere else, including health advice, how to manage your time better interesting articles or videos that i've been consuming and quotes that have caused me to stop and reflect and i have to say in a world of endless emails it really is delightful that many of you tell me it is one of the only weekly emails that you actively look forward to receiving so if that sounds like something you would like to receive each and every Friday.

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2:07:10Thank you.