Why You Can’t Stop Eating Sugar And Ultra Processed Foods with Dr Jen Unwin #652

34:04Yeah, our hunter-gatherer ancestors didn't have crunchy salt sweet together. Together. Which is a delight for the taste buds. Yeah, exactly. It really is. And that's what, yeah, that's your brain lighting up, isn't it? You can almost feel it kind of ping, ping, ping, you know, when you eat these things. That's the pleasure, the reward, that's the brain kind of very quickly because they enter the bloodstream very quickly. That's another thing about drugs, isn't it? The faster they enter the bloodstream and hit the brain, the more addictive they are. So foods that we all know that foods that are whole foods that are full of fiber and sort of natural, they get digested slowly.

34:46So those, the sugar and the, it's not, it doesn't hit the brain in the same way as these processed foods with processed grains, sugar, salt, fat, all quickly available. People can also overeat whole foods, can't they? For sure. Which I guess takes it beyond UPF, so ultra-processed foods, which of course I think is the main problem. Yeah. But dairy, nuts. Yeah. I actually heard when you spoke to Ken Berry on that conversation, he was talking about a patient who was addicted to steak. I think if you remember that, it was kind of a saying to you that they cut bits of steak, put them in a Ziploc bag and put them in the bathroom.

35:31And they'll sometimes sneak off to the bathroom, lock the door and eat what must be cold or room temperature steak. So this whole idea of addiction stroke problematic relationships with food, it's massive, isn't it? And there's certainly a proportion of people who are really struggling with that, which is why the conventional advice is often not working for them. They'll overeat anything in a way. There's a thing called volume addiction where people kind of get addicted just to having large amounts of food. And there's many explanations being put forward. One is, you know, when you stretch the stomach, you actually get oxytocin, serotonin kind of release.

36:11So you do get, you know, in some ways, these sort of neurotransmitter highs. I think the other thing to remember is that with any addiction, it's not just about the substance. It's about the behavior. So it's about the cues. It's about who you're with, you know, the sort of social side of it. There's also the sort of comfort side of a certain behavior. So that's where you can get this overlap with binge eating and eating behaviors that are sort of triggered by emotional states. because we eat for comfort, you know, or if there's a trauma history and we're maybe eating to, you know, to feel okay.

36:51Gabor Mate talks about this a lot, doesn't he? He's really the king of that topic, you know, that we're eating to sort of fill a void in a sense. So obviously, just like any addiction treatment, where people are coming into treatment, you have to take all of that into account. The other thing is that, say, so we were talking about nut butters before, weren't we as well, and how that is a combination of carbohydrate, fat, salt, again, which you wouldn't really have had so much in nature. So things like nuts and dairy do have that rare combination of fat, carbohydrate, protein. They're the only sort of whole foods that have that.

37:38And they can be problematic, well, for any of us, But certainly those of us that have, you know, developed a food addiction problem can very easily overeat those things. And the other thing about addiction that we kind of touched on, we didn't really go into, is that once you've wired the brain for addiction, however that started, all addictions look the same in the brain. And so there was that lovely quotes you were giving from the people who'd listened to Ken's podcast about, you know, well I gave up this but then sugar was my problem it is sort of one problem with with many outlets and once you if you treat somebody's main addiction problem it's a very common thing that other things will try and take its place because you're still looking for that dopamine hit so for example if you go to an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting you see a lot of strong cups of coffee you often see people smoking you know there's a lot of cake and biscuits because people are people are trying to sort of get that hit or we all know if you give up smoking people put on weight because they start eating polar mints or another really stark example is when people have bariatric surgery because a lot of those people will be food addicts and then they can't you know they can't get that comfort from food and a known side effect of bariatric surgery is the development of a new alcohol use problem because people at people can still drink you know get the alcohol so you cut off one pipeline to that dopamine but the brain has been wide and that individual to still want that so they can't get it from food because they feel full they've had bariatric surgery they're going to seek it out sources of dopamine to get the same feeling right Because even going back to what you were saying before about emotions, of course, one of the biggest reasons that we overeat, I think whether you're a food addict or not, certainly from my clinical experience, we eat our emotions.

39:48Yeah. You know, stress. We don't need a hole in our stomach. It's often the hole in our hearts, right? Loneliness, stress, a day on Zooms when no natural light, we haven't been out, whatever it might be. Sugar gives you that quick hit. That quick hit or, you know, that sort of feeling to some extent of calm. Yeah. one of the things I'm passionate about and with every passing year I become more and more passionate about this idea is that it's very rare that there's one piece of advice that works for everyone okay so for example in the context of what we're talking about Jen it is common now with you know many nutrition professionals not everyone to be clear but but many people will say you shouldn't restrict anything.

40:40And I understand the rationale behind that, right? I totally understand the rationale behind that. And those professionals will probably share case studies, say, well, listen, I had a patient like this. And when I help them not restrict and say it's okay to have a little bit of everything, it works for them. Yeah, agreed. But then they make the next step, which is that's the advice for everyone. And it ain't. It's not, no. What you're saying is, you know that that approach worked for one of your clients or your patients, and maybe it worked for 100 of them. It doesn't mean it works for everyone, as you say, and we'll get into your story.

41:17That approach probably wouldn't have worked for you. And, you know, that general advice that restriction means that you've got a problematic relationship with food, which is what many people say, I just think is nonsense, right? in this modern food environment, in my view, if you're not restricting something to a degree, you're probably going to be struggling with many aspects of your health. That's not the norm. That's what people expect people to say. That's just what I've experienced myself. And that's what I've experienced with my patients over the years. You know, in fact, I would say from what I've seen, Jen, there's also this idea that, you know, health is about adding in stuff to your diet.

42:01You know, blueberries do this, so you want to add in blueberries. This food does that, you want to add that in. Great, I'm not against that. And I would say in my clinical career, most of my benefit with patients has come from when they cut out stuff. So rather than adding in healthy things, they cut out things that were problematic. But that's not the conventional view. Yeah, I think the word restriction is such a kind of... It's a triggering word. It's a triggering way. And that's going back to the eating disorder side. And I can see why. For some people, they've over-restricted, they've dieted all their lives.

42:45So there's restricting calories and nutrition, which is a very bad idea. and then there's restricting certain things which are which are harming you or which you can't control but overall you're really focusing on getting nutrient-dense foods in in the right amounts that the body needs you're not restricting calories and you're not restricting um proteins and fats essentially the essential ones that you that you need um i think those are two completely different things and i think women particularly have over-restricted calories fat and protein and in my view this is why we see a lot more women come forward with sort of food addiction problems because there is they're essentially malnourished and their bodies are sort of saying you know keep eating keep eating because we need we need more nourishment it's not what they're eating isn't nutrient dense.

43:49So we, as you've said that we, you know, we've done treatment programs and we've even done some residentials where we've sort of had people around for the weekends and they're always amazed. So I work with Heidi, who's a nutritionist, Heidi Yeva. They're always amazed at the amount of protein that we both put on our plates and they're like, wow, you're going to have that much protein. Well, yes, you know, that's the amount you need. and I think, you know, as women, we'd all been trained that you mustn't put fat on it and you have to have this tiny amount of protein. I think you bring some, you know, you raise some really important points, Jen, there.

44:25You know, if someone has been overly restricting, right, maybe because of toxic diet culture and all kinds of things for a number of years, yes, for that individual, it may be that actually the right approach is, hey, listen, you've overly restricted. We need to bring things in. We don't want you restricting anymore because restriction for you causes problems. At the same time, if someone has an overt problematic relationship with sugar or ultra processed foods, restricting those things might be the best thing that ever happens to them. Right. So one of the things that I guess I just I find gets people into problems these days you know there's great that there's so much content out there there's so much information people to consume and the downside is that too much of it becomes black or white it's either that or that and the truth is a lot of different approaches work for a lot of different people so the question is what's the right approach for you and you have to the only way you're an n equals one experiment this is what I found with my own experience and you have to work out which foods those are that trigger you and that don't and you know how to nourish yourself with the right amounts of foods that you need for your brain all our genetics is so unique aren't they we've all got these different sort of I think it's not for me it's not only our genetics we've all got a different trauma history, a different childhood.

46:02And, you know, I used to see this all the time with patients that, you know, people think, oh, you know, my mom did this, it's in my genes. Well, yeah. Or it could be that you saw your mother's problematic relationship with food as a child and she emotionally ate. So you also emotionally ate. And I've also seen it where, and I'm not blaming anyone when I say this it's just a neutral observation that's for some and it could be dads as well you know it could be that if your adult caregivers when you were growing up emotionally ate and they did it in front of you sometimes they'll do that with you because it's a bonding hey I don't feel good yes let's all have pizza yeah let's all have ice cream oh for sure there's a family culture yeah and again I'm not blaming anyone here but it may be that you just observed that yeah you you know embodied it and then at 40 years old now yeah that's now problematic for you maybe you got away with it as a teenager but you ain't getting away with it anymore and so for that individual that needs to be looked at i mean i guess you spent those behaviors are so ingrained in our psyche aren't they and i think the other thing which is super important is that so we never we don't give our kids caffeine or alcohol or drugs we just don't but we give them sugar and often that's kind of glorified isn't it you know you're banging knee you're crying you know come and have come and sit down and you know have a lollipop or something and so we give our children these foods that we now know because we've got the studies that show that they're altering the structure and function of their brains.

47:52And I think society doesn't yet, it's changing, it's improving, but society doesn't yet view these foods with enough skepticism and enough concern for our children's health. Because once, as we've already said, once the brain is wired, for addiction, it's wired. And if those children have got, there is a bit of a genetic component. There's also the kind of, like you say, the family culture component. If there's a traumatic situation going on, we show a brilliant video of Eric Clapton, who was famous for his drug and alcohol problems. And an interviewer says to him, you know, so when did it start?

48:37Was it cocaine kind of thing? He says, no, it was sugar. He said, when I was a kid, that was how I altered my, It's the thing I had available to alter my consciousness, my sense of, you know, how I felt. And so I, that was what I used. And I've spoken to a lot of people who say similar things. That was what they had available. They were in very difficult situations, but they could get sugar, ice cream, you know, crisps. And that was their comfort. You almost learn it subconsciously. You know, the human desire for most behaviors comes from this need to change our state, right? We don't like the way we're feeling, you know, boredom, frustration, anger, whatever it might be, right?

49:28Lonely, yeah. And so we want to engage in something to change that. And that something could be Instagram, TikTok. We've not talked about scrolling, but that's another dopamine hit. It could be a cigarette. Yep. It could also be food. A drink, an alcohol. And in many ways, they all try to do the same thing. So the question is, what have you been conditioned to? To do, yeah. What's your kind of in averse of commerce drug of choice? What's available? Yeah, and you bring it up with the children. And I think that's, you know, I had Professor Dale Bredesen on a few months ago, this amazing neurologist, the first person to publish studies showing a reversal of Alzheimer's.

50:11This was early, right? but I think his first trial was in 2014 and it's a very novel approach and I've spoken to some of his patients I've been out and done intensives within America and helped him and it's it's pretty phenomenal Dale's approach and when he came on because one of the things we were talking about is if someone has early cognitive decline what can be done and it's you know it's not just one thing it's multiple things but one of the things that Dale talks about amongst many others is reducing sugar intake, right? It talks about insulin resistance in the brain and how important it can be.

50:47And I've seen that with patients before, how it can literally have a marked improvement in cognition. But then you've got the problem of compliance, right? You can know, you know, someone might listen to the podcast with me and Dale and then go to their mum and their carers and say, hey, listen, we need to cut sugar. But it may be very hard to do it. And I said to Dale, The problem is a lot of people, a lot of family members won't deem it. They're like, that's, you know. You know, don't deprive them. Exactly, right? And, you know, I guess everyone has got the right to make a decision for their life that they think is the best thing.

51:28So for someone, it might be, yeah, mum hasn't got much time left or dad hasn't got much time left. Why not let them enjoy it for the final few months? Okay, and I have a lot of sympathy with that. But what Dale was saying is that for a lot of people, he said it comes down to the societal education piece where you would naturally perhaps not want to give someone in a certain medical condition a cigarette. You kind of go, listen, you've got lung cancer here. Don't smoke. We don't see it the same way with sugar, which is a problem. Yeah, yes, exactly. And it's going back to why do we need to get food addiction recognised as an official condition?

52:08I think it legitimises then the harms it can do. And also, then you wouldn't be able to serve ultra-priced food in schools or hospitals. so we don't now there was a time wasn't there when you I remember when my granddad was in hospital you could have a bottle of Guinness or something you know there wasn't it wasn't banned well now you wouldn't ever see people drinking or smoking in hospital um but if you look at what people are eating and what's in the vending machines and also what's been sold in the foyers of hospitals you know to people like me that know really know the harms um on a very personal level it's it's shocking the the nutrition in hospitals and schools let's get super practical jen yes um how might somebody who's listening to this get an idea of whether they have a problematic relationship with food are there any symptoms signs or questions they can ask themselves that would help them identify that?

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55:56How might somebody who's listening to this Thank you. Get an idea of whether they have a problematic relationship with food. Are there any symptoms, signs or questions they can ask themselves that would help them identify that? Yes. So what we did is we took the six symptoms that the WHO used to define substance use disorder. We've made them into a little screening questionnaire called CRAVED. So I love an acronym. So CRAVED is the six symptoms that you'd look out for for any substance use disorder. But as we go through them, I think you and everybody else will see how well these can actually apply to people's behavior with food.

56:39So if you play along and count up, people who are listening can say, well, how many of these would you feel would apply to you? and three or more is the cutoff in in the icd criteria three or more of these symptoms would be the cutoff not for diagnosis obviously because it's not a diagnosis but this would indicate that maybe you've got some addictive like symptoms in relation to your food behavior so c is obviously for cravings and compulsions so does someone listening have a craving or compulsion for a certain food for certain foods that feel so strong that you know you struggle to resist it or you you can't resist it okay yeah so i think we can all recognize that r stands for reaching for more and this gets at the idea that we all understand um tolerance we all understand it in relation to alcohol don't we so if you have a one drink you might feel a little bit of an effect if you have one drink every night after a while you're not going to feel so much of an effect from that so you might then start having two glasses a while a night to get so you need more and more to get the same effect so that's what r stands for reaching for more so you might you know it might have been a couple of biscuits but now once you've opened the biscuits it ends up being half a packet or a whole packet so needing more and more to feel kind of the feeling that you were hoping to sort of feel calm or whatever it is.

58:13A is for activities neglected. And this gets at the idea that when people start getting addicted to substances, it sort of starts to fill up their whole lives. So they stop thinking so much about family. They stop thinking about hobbies. They stop thinking about doing well at work. It becomes all encompassing in their minds. It becomes all encompassing and other things sort of, you know, closing down. so is is that happening can i just ask jen there um when i was reading out some of the comments before that people left on that youtube video um that second comment i read out to you was i used to lie to my wife and secretly buy ice cream with cash so she couldn't track it does that doesn't quite qualify for a for activities neglected does it it kind of does because that's going to affect your relationship with a wife, this kind of secrecy.

59:06Yeah, because secrecy is, you don't really want to be lying to your spouse. Spouse, your partner. You should be totally honest with them. That's not a great position to be in, basically. It's not a great place to start, is it? So yeah, that would definitely count. And you're kind of, yeah, it would be that preoccupation where, you know, presumably that person is, you know, even while they're perhaps having a conversation with their spouse, thinking, right, when can I sneak off? I mean, I can remember doing this thinking, when can I have half an hour so I can drive to View, this, I literally did this, drive to View Cinema and get a Ben and Jerry's ice cream, because that's what I really, really want right now.

59:43And I sit in the car and eat it, and then drive home and pretend that I've been to the post office or something. Yeah, wow. Yeah. Jenna, what's so interesting is if you did that with anything else, like alcohol or cocaine, yeah yeah people would naturally go you've really got a problem you've got a problem here yeah you're lying to your husband yeah you're nipping out the house yes you you're shooting up with your drug of choice in the car in the car and then you get back and you are dishonest about where you've been yeah right because you feel so ashamed and you it's it you know it's out of control so you don't want to talk about it because also the other thing is that the addiction want to have to put it into words really it wants you to keep getting the substance so it doesn't want you to talk about it yeah okay so we've got cravings um that feel so strong that you can't resist yes r is uh reaching for more reaching for more tolerance the idea of tolerance okay and a is you know activities neglected okay i i reckon already on those three there'll be people listening right now if you're watching it on youtube guys let us know in the comments where you're up to with this uh okay what about ved so v is for volume and this is losing control of the amount which is this thing we we said one's too many a thousand's never enough so maybe you know it's pizza night with the kids and you say right i'm just gonna have one slice because i'm on a diet this week one slice with salad and then it it can't be one slice because you you end up wanting two three slices the kids have gone to bed you eat you have what have the leftovers you know you lose control of the volume so v is for volume e is for exclusion and this is the idea of withdrawal symptoms which everybody will recognize in terms of any other addiction we know that one of the key problems of quitting any addictive substance is that you get withdrawal symptoms so for example, I quit caffeine a few years ago.

1:01:47I suffered quite badly with withdrawal symptoms that were clearly physiological. Same for alcohol. We know people get withdrawal symptoms, nicotine. So with sugar and ultra processed foods, you can get sort of shaky feelings. You can get headaches. You can get gastrointestinal problems, sleep problems, mood problems. Everybody recognises that people can be grumpy as, you know, they market foods, don't they, saying, you know, you're very grumpy, so you ought to have a chocolate bar. I saw an advert like that recently. I saw that. It's hiding in plain sight, basically, the problematic relationship, isn't it?

1:02:25They're actually marketing it as a cure for the withdrawal symptom that it caused. Yeah. So, yeah, so ease for and exclusion. So if you get withdrawal symptoms when you try and quit, and of course, this is one reason, like you were saying, people can't stay abstinent, and it's because oftentimes they haven't even got through the proper sort of physiological withdrawal phase because it's awful. How long does it typically take for people? Typically, I would say maybe seven, six, seven, eight days for the sort of physiological withdrawal. Obviously, after that, you still get cravings to some extent, but your physiology should be adjusted.

1:03:02So it's quite a bit of time. You have to be ready before you go through this. You've got to be prepared. To go through that sort of valley. But if you want to do it cold turkey, we're going to probably come on to talking about how people might shift towards being more abstinent. You don't have to do it cold turkey. That's just the way that I like to do things. Okay, so V for volume, E for exclusion. And D, this is the big one really. And it's the defining characteristic of any addiction. It's continued use despite damage. so even if you know so for example cigarettes everybody knows they're bad for you and there's a horrible picture on the thing even so you're going to smoke that cigarette so it's the same with with sugar and ultraprocess foods maybe you've got a diagnosis of type 2 diabetes you know maybe you you know you're overweight and sort of metabolically not healthy you'd rather you know be losing weight even though you've maybe depressed and you know that the way that you eat is affecting your mental health because you you know you feel that's the case even so you you can't quit you're continuing to use these ultra processed foods and sugars to to kind of feel better so you're on that terrible treadmill so um yeah despite knowing it's doing you harm you struggling to quit.

1:04:31I mean, I imagine anyone who's got a problematic relationship with any food will score on the D. Well, they'll definitely score on the D because... Because they want to change. Exactly. They're wanting to change, wanting to be healthier. And despite knowing the problems of that food, they can't stop eating it. Okay. So did you score six out of six? I've always scored six on those. So the maximum score is six? The maximum score is six. fine yes so what if so someone uh like you uh in the past would score six yes what if someone just scores a one on that okay yeah you know what i sometimes have a craving for that food that i can't something about it but you know it doesn't affect the rest of my life i don't reach them all i don't have a loss of control on volume do you know what i mean yeah so that would be amazing one or two it's sort of normal that's kind of normal and i would say great just be be careful be aware that these these foods you know can be doing harm to the brain you know you don't want to have loads of them if if you can so i do know the occasional but my mother-in-law in fact has has biscuits in her cupboard that have been there about six years so she can she can take them or leave them she'll have one and um and people like that because they exist yes and i don't i'm saying i'm taking this beyond you mother-in-law just for people who have a relationship with food that they can have it now and again yes the problem is i think sometimes they can't understand what it's like i was just people who don't have that right exactly so she really struggled with what it was like to be me and that i couldn't she and she's a lovely cook as well so she'd make me this amazing cheesecake which was my favorite thing yes a bit of salt in the digestive but yeah delicious um and i i had to say you know i it's amazing i love it but i just i'm not gonna have any because if i have one slice i'm gonna eat half the thing um and it's taken her a long time to really see that that can be she intellectually understands it um but i think people have to really take the the leap to be able to say yeah i understand even though that isn't my problem you know that if if somebody tells you you know i'm trying to quit sugar please support me then please support them because it is really really a hard thing to do exactly like alcohol so if you had a friend that was quitting alcohol you wouldn't take them to the pub or bake them um you know bring them a special bottle of whiskey because it was their birthday you'd encourage them you'd say let's go walk you know um i've made you a nice meal um you know well done you you'd really encourage them yeah we're getting into possible strategies that people can use and i want to be mindful of the fact that not everyone listening is going to identify full-on six out of six no Right.

1:07:36Some are going to be, you know, at three, which still qualifies, I guess. So three, you know, maybe, so it's a bit more like with sort of saying, quote, it's harmful using. You know, maybe there are times or vulnerabilities when you're eating too many of those kinds of foods. Or could it be for some people, I certainly would recognise this myself. You know, if you're super stressed or there's stuff going on or one of your family members isn't well, you might go to these things, these foods as, you know, just a coping mechanism, basically. From time to time. Yeah, David's more in this category as well.

1:08:16For people who don't know, David is your husband, Dr. David Unwin, who was on the podcast a few months ago now. Very popular episode, talking about all his work with low carb diets, reversing type 2 diabetes, and metabolic dysfunction. So continue, just in case people haven't heard that one. Yes, so he was definitely a harmful user. he did develop type 2 diabetes and that was because he did, you know, he did have a sweet tooth. He did love all those foods, but he wasn't, he could come back from holiday and just go, right, I'm having a healthy week. And just, that was fine. He could do that very easily.

1:08:48He could sort of reset and not eat those foods. Whereas I would come back from holiday and if we'd kind of overindulge on those kinds of foods, I would find it really, really hard to sort of pull back, you know, the lid was off, if you like. So you identify as a food addict and David does not. He does not. Okay, that's really interesting. Yeah. Okay, so let's think about these practical strategies. You mentioned already that cold turkey is one option, but it's not the only option. So if someone has basically identified with several of those on the craved questionnaire, they're going, you know, I think I've got a problematic relationship with certain foods some of the time.

1:09:28how do you start advising them if they want to start changing that basically yeah so number one is we talked right at the beginning about this lighthouse about what well why would you want to change because it's actually going to be quite hard so what's your guiding light what's gonna really keep you going when the cravings come what's your reason for wanting to change your relationship with foods you know and and kind of you know just saying oh i want to lose weight isn't isn't a good enough reason you know what would be better if you lost weight what would be different about your life you know what why do you want to do this and what's that sort of motivation so it might be to do with you know your kids being able to play with the kids or you know staying alive long enough to see the the kids do certain things you maybe want to be an example to the to the kids but finding some some real motivation is is probably step one okay step two is being totally honest, brutally honest about the drug foods again in quotes.

1:10:31So which foods occupy your mind? Might you have a secret stash or often food analysts have secret stashes of their favourite things because they don't want to run out? You know, what are those things? You know, what are you kind of literally thinking? It's going to be really hard to live without. It's nearly always the things that David has lots of patients who say, I literally can't live without I couldn't live without bread you know lots of people it's not sweet things always it's say it can be savory things as well and bread is such a common one actually so if there are foods like that that you're saying I couldn't live without probably that's something to think about and I would you know make a make an honest list of all the the foods um that you're having where the relationship is that one of loss of control cravings needing more and more losing control of the amount continuing to have them even though you know they're doing you harm yeah I've heard you say that you often ask people to write down yeah unless you know I lose control over and then actually write down those foods write them down there's something powerful about writing something you can think about it and go yeah yeah but I think well we know there's incredible benefits to journaling I think one of the benefits is that you see it in front of you.

1:11:55You've had to take it out of your brain. Put it down. Put it down. You see it back. It kind of makes it real. I think in a way that just thinking about things often doesn't. Yes. No, absolutely. The other thing I didn't mention about when our brain's in that state of high dopamine and that sort of reward centers flowing. Another thing that happens is it actually cuts us off from our frontal lobes. And again, they think this is probably an evolutionary thing, that when you were driven to go and hunt, you had to, in a way, not think about it too much because it's dangerous. So you may have decided, oh, we won't bother today.

1:12:35No, you needed to be really driven. So our frontal lobes were a bit cut off. So in the moment of the cravings and the eating and our frontal lobes aren't really. So you can't think your way out of addiction. you have to sort of plan your way out. So one way is to be writing things down, to be really clear and to be making a plan because then you've sort of put your frontal lobes on the paper, if you like, and you've done that at a time when your brain's working properly. Once you're in the food, it's really hard to stop that behaviour when you're on the runway. So yeah, so write it down. um i think you said that one of the things you asked people to write down is i know i'm in trouble when oh yes that's such such a good one i think that's such a great piece of advice yes i know i'm in trouble when and that's the moment before you know you're gonna get on that runway so for example one of my ones would be i know i'm in trouble when i'm randomly opening kitchen doors cupboard doors in the kitchen i don't know if you ever do that and you're not even hungry especially when you're kind of, I'm just going to have a look at what's in here.

1:13:49And... Does anyone not do that? If you're unlucky, there are things in there you probably shouldn't be having. So another thing that we'll talk about is that you can really engineer your own environment to support your recovery. But just I'm looking in there. And of course, if there was chocolate in there and I was, you know, I'd had a long day or something stressful going on, or I was hungry, angry, lonely, tired, bored, I might succumb if I saw it because then the minute I see it the dopamine's already going on the visual cues and that's how the of course that's how the marketing works for all these you know companies that have their branding you know the well we won't mention any but everybody knows the branding for the big companies and it's almost like the minute you see that branding or that advertising that's why they advertise in the evening on the television because we're all vulnerable Wheelpower's gone.

1:14:43Wheelpower's absolutely gone. We're sitting watching the telly, get on to whoever delivers the food. Well, that of course has made it hard because you don't even need to go out anymore and go and you can get it delivered to, you know, while she's still on the sofa watching, which of course, for people who are prone to that makes it really difficult. This idea of writing down, I know I'm in trouble when, and as you said for you, when I'm randomly opening cupboards in the kitchen, looking for something, which of course may not be physical hunger it's more likely to be emotional hunger reminds me of something literally earlier this week a chap called Nir Eyal was in the studio he's an author his latest book is called Beyond Belief and in that book and in our podcast together he shared how he was trying to lose weight for years and he said every diet worked when I was on it but he didn't stay on many of them for long and he explains what changed.

1:15:42But one of the tactics he spoke about beyond food, this is just for making change in life, is something called mental contrasting. And a lot of people only imagine best case scenarios, right? So on January the 1st, oh, you know, I'm going to eat well this year and go to the gym. Like you're just imagining best case scenario. And he was talking, and I think it's very similar to your exercise about this idea that when he started to get really good with his choices or he was making better choices for his goal, he was also planning what happens when I'm out for dinner and someone offers me chocolate cake, right?

1:16:23Because I know I'm going to be tempted. So I guess he was calling this mental contrasting, but it's the same kind of approach, isn't it? You have to rehearse it. You have to plan when your frontal cortex, your rational brain is online, not when it's offline. and maybe you've had a couple of glasses of wine and you're like, yeah, yeah, go on, I'll have it. Yes. And so let's say someone wants, because I think peer pressure is really hard, right? It's really hard. And Jenny, you've worked with so many patients and clients to help them through this, right? So if someone says, look, when I'm left on my own devices, I'm pretty good.

1:16:55At home, you've got your own environment. Or at work, when it's someone's birthday and they bring the quality street and all the home-baked cakes or whatever, and people come around and say, oh, it's fine, it's just one, right? One's not going to do you any harm. What advice do you have for that individual? How can they handle that scenario? Yeah, it's really hard for people in the beginning because you're kind of trying to change how people see you to some extent, aren't you? And how you see yourself. And how you see yourself and how to have those sort of difficult conversations. And I think it is, again, as we were saying at the beginning, it's a very individual thing so people need to work out what would they be comfortable saying um so we sometimes you know give them a few examples or what's wonderful in a group of course you can say you know what people would say oh god i find it really hard when jane at work who you know is a fantastic baker and she'll bring in the cupcakes and we're gonna say to the group you know what what if how have you handled that and how have you handled that and we get some examples when you say the groups you're not talking about at work with your colleagues you're talking about in the sort of in a treatment group or a support group you know it can be really good to get other people's advice on that so we we would often say well i would sort of say how it is that i'd handled it and some they'd get some other ideas and then they'd say well maybe i could do this and we had one lady actually who had a group of friends they always went out for coffee and a cake it was kind of part of her important part of her week and she was like how am i gonna handle this and then she rehearsed it with her husband like you know what she was going to say she was going to say you know I'm really trying to look after my health you know I'm going to come for coffee I love being with you guys but you know I'm not I'm not going to have have the cake and I really hope you can all support me because you know this is so important to me so but it has to come from that person doesn't it they have to feel that that's something they really could say but it's great it is great to rehearse it to sort of you know say it to a loved one that that's what you're going to do so that you're not you don't find yourself in that situation and you haven't got a script almost you haven't got a sounds like that's what he was saying that he would he would rehearse what he was going to say and i would just add to that you know if you in inverted commas fail at first of all it's not failure right each time you do that it's a learning process right but let's say you're trying to cut back on sugar or certain you know foods that you have a problem with relationship like let's say cake you're trying not to have if you do succumb and have it yeah don't feel bad about it try i guess try and analyze what happened exactly what led up to it you know background factors and then what would you do differently next time what of you learned because generally yeah people are a bit disappointed in themselves and they often don't feel so well if they've been off the sugars for a while and then they have it they usually feel pretty rubbish actually so they're able to say well you know i've learned i don't feel so great when i do that um often it's sort of things like traveling or you know they're stuck somewhere without you know they're on a train there's nothing else to eat that you can buy that they They want to eat that sort of from the food car.

1:20:16So, you know, they might think, well, another time I'm going to take stuff with me. And that's a great learning point. So next time. And then also the other thing is that if you have a slip up, just get back on track as fast as you can. Don't let it slide because you're, like you say, self-criticizing or thinking I'm hopeless. I'll never do it. You know, it's all too hard. Just learn from it and get back on track. It's like riding a bike. You just have to get back on. One thing I think a lot about, Jen, is how skills that we learn in one area of life are transferable to so many other areas. And I think there's real relevance to what you're just talking about there, right?

1:20:55So let's say you're someone, and frankly, I've seen this thousands of times over my career, and I've got friends who struggle with this, right? So this is so, so common, but they struggle to assert themselves and speak up for themselves in particular environments. So let's say you have a problematic relationship with cakes or desserts when you're out with your friends, whatever. and you struggle you don't want to let people down what will they think you know all your buddies everyone else is having everyone's having one yeah i thought i'm gonna be the weird one if i don't have it they're all gonna be thinking oh god look at him or whatever right which which is very very real if you can learn the skill over time maybe you'll get it wrong a few times i've been able to speak up for yourself yeah and i said hey guys listen you guys go for your life enjoy it had it i'm just not eating like that anymore right a you've got a problem well one of the problems is that when you you definitely see this with alcohol but i've seen this with my mates before with sugar you or some of my mates i should say it almost feels like a criticism of them they often take it as a critique of them because you whatever deciding not to drink or not having a dessert in some ways there's a mirror back onto them yes only if they've got a problematic relationship because if they don't it's like why the hell does it matter why do they care hey listen i'm going to enjoy my chocolate cake if you don't want it and you don't have it i'm still going to enjoy yeah right but going back to my point is if you're someone who struggles and you learn how to speak up for yourself yeah that won't just help you with that food yeah that will help you in every other aspect of your life absolutely because you're putting yourself first.

1:22:46Yeah, you could even look at it as go, oh my god, it's so unlucky that I've got this. And yes, of course, in the modern food environment, it is unlucky if you have that sort of relationship with food. It's not ideal, but you can also turn it into a real strength. If you can learn the skills to get through it, it can transform your life in so many other ways. And you're right, the sugar pushers will come out of the woodwork when you try and change your behaviour that Some people will try and push back, but it is usually because you're making them feel uncomfortable because they've got a problem.

1:23:19Okay, so that's social settings. What's your take on cold turkey versus gradual? Right. There's many roads to the same destination. And it has to be individual because you've got to feel that's the right way for you. So some people choose to sort of slowly cut down or to maybe eliminate perhaps the worst offending food. You know, they might decide to sort of cut things out bit by bit. And that can work. It can obviously take a bit longer. And it can be for people that are very kind of end stage, let's say. I don't think it would have worked for me because you're still having, in a sense, some of the substance, aren't you?

1:24:10You're still having maybe other things with sugars or refined carbohydrates. So that can sort of pull you back in. So there's pros and cons to that. There's obviously pros and cons to going cold turkey because, well, it's a bit of a shock to the system and you can feel pretty rough for, as we've said, about a week. The other thing is that anybody on medication of diabetes or blood pressure or other medications shouldn't do that without talking to their healthcare provider. Because if your blood sugar goes down and you're on, say, blood sugar lowering medications, we don't want anybody coming to any harm or, you know, your blood pressure can sort of reduce as well.

1:24:51So anyone who's on medication probably shouldn't go cold turkey without, unless they've got proper supervision for their medications. a lot of those of us with sort of addiction problems have got very black and white brains you know it's kind of yes or no it's black or white so uh for me cold turkey felt like once i'd understood the once i'd got to the point of understanding that it was an addiction and that these were the problematic things um then it it just made sense to me right okay that was the right thing to do just to quit completely and then deal with the consequences if you like so there's this sort of physiological withdrawal and then there's this sort of you can get sort of cravings for for a while afterwards and the other thing is that we've talked a lot about food but like any other addiction recovery program it isn't just about the food as as as you know because you've spoken to so many people um about sort of you know this this same sort of topic that it has to be beyond the food as well you have to understand if you've been using food for comfort to fill a hole to sort of you know deal with difficult memories or whatever you have to find a way another way to to deal with those things because otherwise you're going to get drawn back in uh to the food or some other substance at some time so it's all about advocating for yourself as you said you know self-care on many levels so i've had to learn And I was an exercise hater, particularly at school, mostly because I was overweight, mostly because I was addicted to sugar.

1:26:32But I've come to love it. I've come to love exercising to feel the mental benefits of it and the physical benefits. I, you know, have had to sort of use techniques like, you know, yoga and these kinds of things to sort of feel calmer. I have hobbies that are very calming like knitting and crochet that I can do to sort of keep away from the food is something else to think about you know so people have to think beyond beyond the food as well yeah I guess the the point that comes to mind there is I think a really empowering message for people from your story jen and your husband david's story when he was on the podcast a few months ago it really seems as though both of you have come into a new lease of life with your health and frankly your lives in your 50s and 60s yep and i just want to highlight that because many people feel it's too late for them to change.

1:27:45When you just said there that you used to hate exercise and you think it's primarily because you were overweight, primarily because you were addicted to sugar. There will be so many people listening who also recognize that and have told themselves a story that exercise is not for them. But actually it wasn't that exercise wasn't for them. It was in the state in which they were in. They were unable to enjoy moving their bodies. Correct. But if you can gain some degree of mastery over your food environment, recognize it as an addiction, if it is an addiction for you, take certain steps to change things.

1:28:24Well, you never know. Like David said to me, how old is David now? Was he 67? 67. 67. Yeah. He's telling me he's like, he's probably the fittest he's ever been. He looks good. He feels good. He's cognitively sharp. He's running faster than he's run before. This is a very, very empowering message for people. So if anyone feels it's too late and actually, oh, they've had problems with sugar their whole life, you, Jen, and your husband, David, I think are shining examples that you can change at any time. You just start to feel, once you've quit all of that stuff, you weirdly start to want to move and you start to feel more energetic.

1:29:04We've seen that in many, many of David's patients as well. It wasn't about getting them to take more exercise to lose weight. Once they get control of the food, they naturally lost weight. And then we didn't even say go and exercise. They'd come back and say, oh, I've joined the gym, or I'm walking every evening after my meal. They just feel more like moving because their mitochondria are working, your brain's working, you just feel more like exercising. What was his name? Was it Chris? David's patient who I spoke to as part of my Channel 4 show that came out in January Live Well with a Drug-Free Doctor I remember chatting to Chris and he also when he was you know because he showed me all these images you know food was his identity all the images he showed me he was really overweight and there was always food around and he was having a great time with his food yeah and you know he was just telling me how he walks every day out loads.

1:30:02He goes to the gym some times a week. He boxes. Stuff that he never used to do. So I think this is also another unrecognized benefit of dealing with this. You actually get so much vitality back when you start to tackle this, don't you? And a vitality you perhaps have never experienced before. Yeah. Yeah. And for me, of course, it became a passion as well that other people should have this information. Because it took me, so I'm a psychologist, I'm so embarrassed that it took me till I was like, until I was about 52 to put it all together. Because I'd always wondered about why, you know, why I'm a psychologist, I can't control my behavior around food.

1:30:48It was kind of even more shameful and more embarrassing. But I'd always been trying to work it out and eventually when i worked it out i was like oh you know other people need to know this because it makes such a difference that piece of information that could it could it be an addictive problem and then of course we know that the the treatment the effective treatments for addiction is is abstinence and once you've that that's it i mean we could have done the podcast in like a minute i could have just said that really you have if it's an addiction problem abstinence is the treatment. And once I'd had that aha moment, I was like, other people need to know this because that's not the general messaging around health and fitness.

1:31:39Yeah. One thing that I guess is in your favour is that you and David did this together. That has been amazing. And it has been this sort of evolving story where we found the low-carbohydrate way of eating and then applied that to his patients to such amazing kind of results. But for somebody with food addiction, that can be, yes, eating in a low-carbohydrate way can be very, very good, but you need to understand the addiction piece because otherwise people slip. And this is what happened to me. I did really well on low-carb. I lost a lot of weight. but then a bit like the guy you've had on who said you know it's really good when you're on it there's all this kind of you know keto treats aren't there keto baking you know obviously I was going to get drawn back into that because I love baking so I'd start baking with you know sweeteners and almond flour and then that becomes problematic because you're going to get drawn into that or we like nut butters and things like that you can still have that relationship with things that seem kind of in quotes healthy um so i had to really understand right you know that those kinds of foods um for me are addictive so i just need to leave them to the side of my plate literally and just focus on eating real whole foods as nature intended if someone's listening Jen and I know there'll be many who are thinking listen the problem is I try and do this but my partner keeps certain foods in the house right which means that at some point I crack and end up eating those foods I want to know what your advice is for that person and then let's expand it out a little because a lot of people will say and I'm interested as you will take on what this actually means as a psychologist, they'll go, yeah, but you know, I need to keep sweets and sugars and chocolates in the house for the kids.

1:33:48So two scenarios there. One is that the partner is not playing ball or they don't, maybe, you know, I don't mean unintentionally, maybe they just like, they don't recognize how serious it is. And then children, so take them in whichever way you want. So living in a household with other people who don't want to be abstinent. Yes, of course that that's a challenge it's not insurmountable but it does make it more different difficult yeah so I'm so lucky because we both eat kind of more or less the same a little bit different but more or less the same um and again there are there are many possible answers one is yeah to really have that conversation if it's a partner that loves you hopefully they want you to be healthy and well um so you have that conversation about you know I'm beginning to think about my problem in this way and I really want to try and you know be abstinence from from these foods which are my problematic foods um sometimes partners are willing to have a go themselves you know they may be interested themselves in seeing how that goes otherwise it's a negotiation about you know can I have this cupboard is my food and you keep your food over here or sometimes we've had people buy their husbands like lock boxes and give them the key so they have their if they want to be in chocolate and crisp they have it in a locked box out of sight so that the the person knows they can't get into that box or that it's locked in a filing cabinet something like that when you hear that you go it's pretty hard to not make the case this is an addiction right when you when you hear things like that a locked box yeah yeah that people have asked their husbands to kick to keep it outside or or only to eat it outside the home um so it's an individual kind of negotiation about what's possible really in in the home um you know i say having a cupboard so the cupboard you open only has the things in that you want to be eating or a shelf on the fridge that's your food it is more difficult if you're seeing it all the time.

1:35:56But Jen, just to bring up alcohol for a minute, I guess... Yeah, use the same analogy. Use the analogy. And if you were recognized as an alcoholic and you were seeking help for that... You'd hope that your partner didn't... Would not keep alcohol in the house. Sit next to you on the sofa having a drink while you're watching. Yeah, but again, it goes back to that sort of theme that's been playing out throughout this conversation that we don't really recognize it don't take it as seriously seriously it's like oh yeah just a bit of sugar and it's incredibly serious so you know it is it's going to kill you the same way as cigarettes and yeah i think that's the key point isn't it it's like look humans are hardwired to crave sugar as we've already touched on in our evolutionary past if it was around we might gorge on it and store a bit of fat to get us through four times when food wasn't around.

1:36:50But in the modern food environment, for most people, food is always around. So that so-called winter never actually comes, right? It's always summer. And so we know what are the problems today? Well, metabolic dysfunction is probably one of the driving factors for most chronic diseases heart attacks strokes many types of alzheimer's yeah and a large amount maybe 40 percent of cancers are driven by metabolic dysfunction you know as well as other things right but the consequences of not being able to get on top of your food intake for some people can be frankly life-threatening and life-shortening so yeah this is not a trivial matter we're talking about oh you're having a bit of sugar it's like no no for some people this actually kills you yeah and if you've got a food addiction you're seven times more likely to have type 2 diabetes for example so there's been studies done on and we know that the prevalence in the general population of food addiction using those sort of symptoms is 14 well that's more than 6 million adults in the UK.

1:38:0914 %? 14%. So it's very similar to alcohol. Wow. As a problematic thing. That's kind of what? It's huge. 1 in 6, 1 in 7. Yeah. And it's the same in kids and adolescents. It's terrifying. You know, those kids have been brought up in this food environment. You know, when we were brought up, it wasn't quite as it is today. Even Halloween, right? When I was a kid, it wasn't that big a thing. No. Somewhere, I think, in the last 10 years, it's kind of from America. It feels like it's accelerated into being like the most ridiculous sugar fest. Every celebration has become a ridiculous sugar fest, hasn't it?

1:38:51Valentine's, Mother's Day, Easter, Christmas. Yeah, once Christmas is done, it's like, well, let's start getting people ready for the next celebration. We've been had, really. Yeah. Once you see it, it's everywhere. You're being marketed this stuff all the time. You're going to the garage. Someone who works in this space had a clicker and she thought, right, I'm going to see how many times a day I'm cued to kind of eat these foods. And they're everywhere. So you go and fill up your car. You know, you have to walk a gauntlet, an absolute gauntlet of snack food just to pay the bill. There's advertising hoardings.

1:39:30It's on the television. It's scrolling on the phone. So we're being queued, queued, queued. As you say, you're surprised that anyone manages to actually resist. As does anybody manage, yeah. And I think we want to empower people to say, listen, it's not your fault. It's okay to fight back. It is difficult. Yeah. But also, what are you going to do? You have to do something. And there are communities of people that are doing it. You have to sort of find your tribe to some extent. It's really important that, you know, you wouldn't expect someone with an alcohol problem to kind of go it alone. They would have a support group or a counsellor or somebody supporting them.

1:40:07And I think, you know, it's really important that people kind of find their little support group or they have somebody who's really with them on this. So if it's not going to be your partner, you know, try and find somebody else or a community to sort of get invested. We didn't talk about kids. Do you want to go back to that? We can do, yeah. Part two of the question. Because that's really difficult as well. And everybody thinks, oh, they're so cute. They should let them have a treat. And I was guilty of this. So I didn't work this out until I was maybe 52. So obviously, I raised my kids pretty heavily on the carbohydrate side.

1:40:46Because that's what... And we used to have Carbohydrate Corner, which had the biscuits in for the kids to go and get. So many people have sweet drawers, don't they? I apologise to them about it. I'm sorry about it. But fortunately, they all eat like we do now. They're in their 20s, aren't they, I think? Yeah, 20s and 30s. And they're all really... David was saying to me that some of that dry was vanity as well. They realised that actually... They felt better, they look better. And looks better and felt lean and had six packs and stuff. Good skin. When they ate that way, when they ate in that sort of low carbohydrate way that you and David eats.

1:41:21Yeah, yeah. So I think for some people, vanity is a motivating factor. It's feedback, isn't it? Totally. It's an important fact. We've got a granddaughter, she's 14 now. And whenever she eats ultra-proses food or sugar, she just breaks out. So she just knows not to do it. Yeah, so it's difficult with the kids. But I think, you know, you're the adults, you're in charge of the home environment. Yeah. One of the things I figured out early on in my career that was really helpful for previous patients was control the environment you can control. Don't use that willpower in your house because you're going to have to use it up when you fill up petrol, when you go to the news agents, when you go and get your coffee and you're walking past the pan of chocolates that are waving at you, right?

1:42:09You're going to have to use your willpower there. Some people, there is a school of thought, they push back and they say, well, that's not dealing with the relationship with foods. they'll say that you should be able to get to a point where you can have it there and resist. And it's not that I necessarily disagree with that. I just think that you're just making life harder for yourself if you're having those foods there. Because one evening, you are going to be tired, stressed, lonely. You will have had a bad day. And if it's there and you're opening the cupboards looking for something and there's chocolate there, you're probably going to have it.

1:42:47I'm totally with you on that we have to resist it all day long let's keep it safe at home I don't want to eat it so I'm not going to have it at home because it and that's assuming you made the choice that you don't want to eat it if you want to eat it and have it at home we're not saying don't have it we're assuming that you're trying to change your relationship with those foods don't put it in the basket that's the point that's the point at which the decision is made in the supermarket what do you do with your grandkids? they're just so used to eating the way that we eat So it's sort of non-food treats.

1:43:20So we do other things with them. So Easter, we'll do other activity, play games or, you know, walk up mountains or do something else. Yeah, it's hard. We've done the same thing, right? And it is hard because you are basically resisting the prevailing tide of culture. Yeah, absolutely. And it is much harder work and you need time and energy. And of course, not everyone has that. and so I do recognize that but I guess we're sharing this to not make people feel bad to show what might be possible yeah and how there is a way to fight back against the food industry we've been there we've you know that was that was my story and we've tried to to do something different and it is it is possible to to do that and it's not been easy at times but that doesn't mean it's worth not worth uh trying to persist and and just do a little bit better every day if someone's listening jen and they want to get involved with the community maybe they don't have friends or family who are supportive but they're really committed is that a way they can get in touch with you or your groups and and if so how i know you have the book fork in the road great resource yeah i wrote um in lockdown and it was sort of meant to be yeah for people that probably listening to this conversation, it was for people like me who'd had these sort of lifelong struggles.

1:44:47It explains all about food addiction and the symptoms and some of the science of it. And Dave has done the forward. But then it's also like, you know, what to eat and how to deal with these social situations that we all get ourselves in and what other things you might want to think about in your life. But it's a very little book and all the proceeds go to the charity, the collaborative health community that i work with and that are with you know campaigning and doing research on food addiction um and you know if you've got a partner or a member of the family that doesn't get it read the book yourself but then hand it over to them because it's it's a quick read and it explains the problem to them in sort of simple terms so um yeah so that's that's one thing to yeah so the collaborative health community you can look on our website we've got information and resources for for professionals and we're just about to launch some um training for healthcare professionals so that they can understand how to recognize food addiction in the clinic and and what to do about it and also got information for for the public and some more resources that people can can look at you have practiced as a clinical psychologist for over 30 years, I believe, and I've heard you talk before about the role of hope in healthcare.

1:46:11Why, in your opinion, is it so important to have hope? So, yes, hope was my passion, really, before I got into all of this space about food addiction, and I did my doctorate on the role of hope in healthcare. Hope is about having a sense of a possible better future. It's about believing that you can see the steps to that future and believing that you've got the motivation to take those steps or the yeah you've got the you're going to be able to take those small steps and when people have that sense of hope it has such a massive impact on how they cope with everything in in life really um and even about you know things like the level of pain they experience or the amount of medication that they take or even it's even been linked with longevity to have that that sense of moving towards a preferred future and i think often in in healthcare settings people are so um they've lost hope really yeah and they've they've they've they've come it's always like a sort of you know particularly a lot of people that that come to see us it's like you're the last house on the street really they've you know they've they've tried everything and they've sort of become very hopeless so it's very important as healthcare practitioners that we're able to instill that sense that you know they can get to it they can get to a better place and they've got the the wherewithal to do that you were talking about sort of you know you know often people that we see are very competent in many walks of their lives they've got successful careers or you know they've they've got a lovely family on but they they just there's this one area that they can't crack like in this case we're talking about the food and they've sort of lost lost hope there and it's about trying to give people the hope and the confidence that they can actually take the steps you know they've got that within them to take the steps to this better future and you know not that it's all going to be plain sailing but you know that they will get there in the end with you know with some care and support and often all you're trying to do is uncover that for people you know like for chris that you spoke to it was only a matter of showing him that there was a way yeah um that he could recover his health which he at that point probably could barely believe that he would end up on no medication and going to the gym every day um well i think jen what you clearly do with this work and what you've been doing for many years to try and raise awareness of food addiction, sugar addiction, UPF addiction, that this is a problem that many people are struggling with, that we need to recognize and we need to give people solutions to or certainly practical steps they can take.

1:49:25That is giving people hope. I'm sure there's many people who've taken hope just from hearing you today. Even the fact that you've managed to, I don't know if you would say you've conquered your food addiction or you've learned how to manage it. You learned to live with it. You learned to live with it. Migraine or something like that, you know, it's the same. It's always all type 2 diabetes. It's in the background, but it's not impinging on your quality of life. Can I just go through a few questions that some of my listeners and people on Instagram have sent in? Maybe just take three or four of them.

1:49:58Something you've kind of covered so you can give a quick overview if you want. Rennie says, Jen, I'd like some tips, please, on reducing sugar intake in children. and encouraging them to make healthier choices without feeling like they are missing out. As well as that, Jen, she also says, sometimes I feel I'm the worst mum ever. Right? Because I ultimately crack and let them do these things. It's so hard, isn't it? Real sympathies. You know, bringing up children, it's complicated. you know the screens and the devices and the food environment i think it's incredibly hard so the fact that you're trying to do your best and you're thinking about it i think that's so laudable um i think we've talked quite a lot about not having stuff in the house and i think that is it's a great place to start it's a really good place to start also you can start with breakfast that's another thing that we often say um to families is you know start with a good healthy breakfast with maybe eggs or you know full fat yogurt these kinds of things that aren't not sugary cereals not sugary cereals a good place to start with kids and actually you know they love kids love baking their eggs so you know that can be a great place to smell or or another way is to help involve them with making stuff so with um with our grandkids um if they stay over and they're going to school the next morning i just do a quick smoothie with um like forest fruits usually some frozen fruits because that's a bit cheaper full fat yogurt um you know blitz all up and they they slug that down before they go to school so but they love to make things like that kids don't they so i think if you can involve them in cooking um yeah don't have the worst things in the house um that's yeah great advice two tips um the other thing that i would add is one thing i try to do with my children is is help them start to see the relationship between what they eat and how they feel so if they have been at a party or whatever and they've had pizza whatever it might be and they don't feel good afterwards or i don't know they come out on the spot the next morning or Do you know what I mean?

1:52:17Just some way of trying to connect that when I eat like this, this happens. When I eat like this, I've got more energy. I believe that long term, that's a very helpful thing because ultimately at some point, they're going to be out of your control. They're going to make their own choices. And if they can see the impact of their choices, it's much easier to start changing that. Sarah says I would be interested to know if not being breastfed increases the likelihood of sugar addiction I don't know if you know anything about that I don't know that there's any evidence about it but this is a thing that I've I've actually tweeted a thing to say who out there has got a sugar addiction who was bottle fed I really think there is there is a link but I don't know that there's any evidence but it's something that I've really thought about.

1:53:09And, you know, a lot of the formulas did have sugar in. I was bottle fed, you know, so it wouldn't be surprising if that sort of, you know, set you up to some extent. Now, you know, we know that people have to bottle feed, so we don't want anybody sort of feeling guilty about that. But it may be that in those of us with that slight genetic vulnerability, maybe that is a factor and you know to choose the feeds that that don't have the excess sugars in them yeah and i want to just double down on on what you just said there which is we don't want anyone to feel guilty no um people often have to bottle feed for a variety of different reasons and you know and it's like you know breastfeeding is really good for the gut microbiome but if you had to bottle feed your child there were other things you can do to help yeah increase the health of the gut microbiome yeah and same thing here yeah if you've had to do that don't feel guilty just try to absorb the things that we've been talking about and figure out how you can actually change things at home perhaps to yeah you know take account for that uh sharon says i'm really struggling with this i'm definitely addicted to all things sugary i read books i google the subjects i literally last about two to three days then i crumble it's not just what i eat it's the quantity too how can i get past this when i feel i have no willpower or discipline that's kind of our entire conversation i guess yeah definitely definitely and the thing is in the early days to not be don't be restricting your proteins and your fats because that's how you build a body and brain and you've got to repair the brain you've got to be having the right nutrients otherwise you will be getting cravings so um i i think i don't know that that's the case but i would say you know be eating plenty and regularly when you're trying to quit sugar be eating plenty of good foods because you you will get the cravings yeah and two or three days yeah you're not through you're not through the worst of it then um probably i would say for someone like that to to join a program if you go to our website which is the dash chc org yeah and and you know think about signing up for a program because then you're you know you're getting expert advice you're getting support on the way through you're talking to other people who are going through the same thing um it makes such a difference if you if you can't do it on your own definitely join a program.

1:55:46One thing we've not fully got into today, but you've touched on it a few times. And I just want to make sure we've sort of covered this for completion is this idea that sometimes your desire for sugar is a consequence of what you ate or didn't eat previously. So if you had a sugary cereal for breakfast, well, your blood sugar may have shot up three hours later it may start to crash down and you then crave when it's crashing down yes but actually it may be that you don't have a sugar addiction problem it may simply be that actually that craving is a consequence of your blood sugar you've got a blood sugar problem yeah yeah and so if you were able to have um a breakfast as you said with with some eggs for example and some avocado and some yogurt some you know a more protein rich and healthy fat rich breakfast you may find you don't have the craving i know many patients over the years yeah who've been in that situation definitely if you're having enough protein you know you're just not as hungry and as as craving yeah yeah yeah and of course for some people these cgms which i briefly spoke to you know these continuous glucose monitors can be a very useful tool maybe not i don't mean long term necessarily but you know a two-week trial you can learn a massive amount you can go oh wow actually every time I'm craving sugar it's because my blood glucose is dropping what if I change what I ate and my blood sugar didn't have these highs and lows for some people their cravings vanish when they eat that way you learn a massive amount and the other thing it can be really good if you're kind of having a bit of a wobble and you want to reset there's something about seeing it in real time on your phone and you're wanting to keep your lines people like me anyway you want to keep the line flat, you just get that feedback immediately.

1:57:41And you see the kinds of foods that for you personally put up the blood sugar. So yeah, a lot of people with a sugar addiction problem do really well trying out a CGM. Jen, I've thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. I think you're doing like your husband together, you guys are doing such incredible work. final question is for that person who throughout this conversation has recognized that actually you know what they've realized that they have a problematic relationship with food that they've never properly admitted to themselves they've perhaps hidden it from the people around them of course this conversation is full of advice and tips on that already but for that person who thinks it's too late for them to change what would you say to them oh gosh never too late so we've we've had patients in their 60s and 70s come along and make huge leaps in their mental and physical health by you know by quitting the sugars and the ulceropolisis reason replacing it with real whole nutrient dense food and then that's as we've said given them the sort of energy and the and the focus to do other things in their lives.

1:58:59Yeah. Yeah. Well, you've studied the role of hope in healthcare. I think you've left people with a lot of hope at the end of this conversation. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I hope so. Thank you very much.

1:59:16Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. Do think about one thing that you can take away and apply into your own life. and also have a think about one thing from this conversation that you can teach to somebody else remember when you teach someone it not only helps them it also helps you learn and retain the information now before you go just wanted to let you know about Friday 5 it's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness in that email I share exclusive of insights that I do not share anywhere else, including health advice, how to manage your time better, interesting articles or videos that I've been consuming, and quotes that have caused me to stop and reflect.

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2:01:37Thank you. Thank you.