Human Behaviour Expert: How to Read People & Command Respect | Mark Bowden | FO549 Raj Shamani

28:45Is it not trustworthy at all? It's not trustworthy at all. And if I do this, this is making you. Yeah. Instantly, instantly I go. This is when you're grey? This. When you're grey?

29:00Yeah, it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. It's crazy. Just the space between table and me. Just the space between the two. Yeah. Wow. Just the space between the two. But that is the technique, okay? That is the technique in order to make sure that you have that space. Okay? But it's about the space. That's what it's about. So if, and space from what? Not everybody would be sitting on the table. Let's say somebody's standing in a group. Sure. Then what? Okay. Somebody's in meeting. So space can, let's look at this one. Let's look at this one. Proximity to the elements in the room of most value. Okay.

29:47Proximity to the elements in the room of most value. Okay. So look, let me give you an example. example, imagine we're in a room, nobody knows me. Okay. But of course in a room, they're going to know you. Okay. Great podcast. People know you, you know, you go back to your, well, many places on the planet, but let's say go back, go back to your home in India. Like people are going to go, oh, it's rush. Okay. So I can walk into a room. Nobody knows me, but I know everybody knows you. Okay. What do I do? I walk up and I get as close to you as I possibly can. because now I'm proximate to the thing of value.

30:25I'm proximate to the thing that is trusted and known and seen as that will be a benefit in the future. Okay, so can I get proximate to that? Can I touch that? Okay, so I come up and I shake hands and I go, hey, Raj, good to meet you. Yeah, suddenly everybody's saying, oh, hang on. He touched the thing of most value in the room. Yeah. Now, listen, I know you're not going to go into a room and go, hey, I'm the person of most value. It's not going to be you. OK. But it would be unfair to say you're not going to be seen as somebody of value because you are. OK. So there's going to be a perception of you in the room, whether you like it or not.

31:08You could walk in super humble. Yeah. And people are going to go, yeah, but that's Raj from the podcast. And, you know, I like his stuff. People know him. So you're going to have a perceived high value. And in fact, you walking humbly in actually could cause your value to go up even further. They're like, well, he's a big deal and he's not showing that he's a big deal. So even more valuable because he's not putting extra effort into that. It's kind of effortless value. So I want to come in and I want to get more proximate to that. Now, if I could then get you to show a positive feeling around me.

31:47So everywhere on the planet, the smile is a positive feeling. It's the same. The smile is the same across the planet. Yeah. Duchenne smile. Sides of the mouth go up. Yeah. Just as you're doing right now. Yeah. Eyes narrow here. Little wrinkles here. You're doing it perfectly. OK. But notice when I smile. Yeah. If I hold it for long enough, you end up smiling. OK. So I walk up. I shake your hands. Duchenne smile. You naturally smile back. Oh, now everybody's seen me proximate to you. And you have a good feeling. a Duchenne smile, which means is good now. In the language of body language, it means something is good now and they've seen you, us touch.

32:28Now you've infused me with some of that value. Okay. I'm going to be more trusted now. So long as nobody knows me and they have no reason to distrust me. Okay. So we've got a show more, we've got take up more space. And so we've also got be proximate to elements in the room that would already be seen as valuable so get some value by association now that's not to say in your life you need to create your own value of course you do but we all need to start somewhere yeah yeah which is which is if you can get to other closer to other things of value you'll learn from them you'll pick up from them you'll mirror those things of value.

33:13You'll reflect those things of value. So be near people who are great to be near, who are like who you want to be, because you'll be more like them in the end. I used to have a principle around this. I used to call this borrowed credibility. It's like when you don't have any credibility and you're an unknown in the room, you go up to the person who's credible enough and you borrow their credibility just by being person of value to them. You don't have to be a person of value to 500 people in the room if you can be value to maybe three people who are really, really important. Perfect. Listen, I really want people to pay attention to what you said there in borrowed credibility, because it could sound, without that explanation, it could sound like you're just going, okay, I'll have some of that.

33:59Yeah. But what you're actually saying is, you're going in and saying, look, I want to be a value to you yeah and therefore i think the the value would reflect back yes on me okay i i word it like like this i want to go in the room and help people immediately you know what it's like walking you've you've done it in your life i'm sure you still do it in certain situations you walk into the room and you're like, I shouldn't be here. Yeah, almost every day. Like, they'll find me out this time. They'll find me out. And we've all been there. We've all been the youngest person in the room at some point.

34:41We've all been, in our own minds, the least credible person in the room. And it continues and it continues and it continues. And it should continue because if it isn't continuing, you're not playing hard enough. You're not pushing yourself, you know? Agreed. So look, we've all done that. What I think about doing when I'm in those situations, and when I'm not, when I know I'm the most credible person in the room, is I go, I'm just here to help. I just want to help. And it means I go in the room and I'm not so self-conscious. I'm not going, oh no, they're going to see that I'm not this and I'm not this and I don't know enough about this.

35:18I walk in the room and I go, what can I do to help? Who can I see who needs some help. You know, and I might go, oh, Raj, I know him. I know him. I'll go and see what help he needs. You know? Okay. So I make it easy on myself because I already know you. Yeah. I pick a low hanging fruit ultimately, but I'm still going in and going, how do I help? I might even say it. Raj, I've just got here. What can I do? You know, what can I do to help? So I'm instantly trying to push value on you, like give you value, offer you value in the expectation. And then there's no contract, but expectation, the hope, it'll reflect back eventually.

36:07True. I do this, I used to do this a lot. And then I realized like in a party or in a social gathering, you know, like three or four people and they're not necessarily friends. you just happen to know them and they know you yeah but how do you actually become a part of their clan or how do you become friends with them for that particular situation so i usually go up and tell them not that how can i help you i was like okay now that i'm here what's up how you good how you doing all that and then i'd say what's the plan for the night i love that what are we doing together? Like immediately in their brain, I've primed them that there's a plan which we are supposed to do it together.

36:51And then they make me part of the plan and then we start doing things together. So here's what's brilliant about that as well. I agree with everything you said there. Here's what else is brilliant about it. What's the plan for us tonight? Okay. Suggests that they have a value system. That they have an evaluation of the way it should go. Okay. Whether it should be drinks or dancing or the cinema or hot dogs or whatever. Yeah. Or something they're trying to figure out and they need help with management. Totally. Yeah. Totally. Like it says that, look, on your mind is probably a hierarchy of available things.

37:30And some are more important than others. Okay. And by saying, what's our plan, you're going to elicit their hierarchy. And they're going to go, well, look, this is what we need to do. Yes. You're instantly getting, oh, this is the most important thing for them. Yes. Now's your opportunity to go, brilliant, great, I love that. And accept and join in with their hierarchy. Now, I know sometimes you might go, oh, you know, that might not be the best way to go about it. Like if we go about that way in managing the situation, I've got some experience that says it may not go as you hoped. You don't want to let them know that immediately, okay?

38:07Because that's going to show that you're from another group. Yes. Okay. You want to accept, go, great, let's do that, and start to persuade them along the route and show them value of like, okay, well, should we do this or this now? And help them along that route. So we call this influence and persuasion. Yeah. And in influence, again, beautiful medieval Latin word means in the river with. Influence means in the river. Influence means in the river with. In the river with. Yeah. Which means I'm going to get in your water and it's a river so it's flowing. And we're going in the way that your river is going.

38:46I'm not there to go, you'd say, hey, Raj, you're wrong. This won't get you the result. I'm there to go, let's go down. Great. You want to go this way? Let's go that way. Because as we go down that route, I can show empathy. I can go, okay, I see why we're going this way. I see what you like about this route. I see what do you most like? Why did you decide to do this? oh really good great idea and then i can go hmm at this point do you think we should go this way or this way i mean when i describe it this way looks a little bit treacherous i mean i see the upside to it and i see this way it looks a little more value to me i mean what do you think which way do you want to go and i can start to persuade you persuade that the meaning of that word is to move hard to give a bit of a binary choice yeah yeah so we can move hard from one side to another side and that way we might end up in the place that actually i thought we should go but we started off on hey what's our plan for this evening what's the best way to influence people empathy i mean influence them by by getting the river with them you know float alongside them you have to show empathy you have to accept them so i do it like this i use very positive words and very open body language.

40:04So if I were to use your technique, which I think is brilliant, go, hey, Raj, what's in our plan for this evening? And you would go, well, we're going to do X and Y and Z. I would do open body language and I'd go, fantastic. Great. I like that. Love that. Good. So I use really affirmative, clear language. I don't hide it in my head somewhere. I don't think, oh, yeah, okay, that'll be good. No, I may be thinking, that'll get us into trouble. We shouldn't do that. Okay. But I'm not going to argue with Raj at the moment because Raj has a certain power. Yeah. And arguing with him will not persuade him.

40:42Yeah. In fact, he'll probably go harder down that route. Yeah. So I'm going to influence him first of all, which means I'm going to accept. Doesn't mean I agree. Yeah. I could even go, Raj, I see why you want to do that. It's a great idea. It's a great idea. Would you be open to another idea? you're most likely to say, yeah. And I go, okay, well, what about this? And what about this? And what do you see as the biggest benefit of that? So now I'm doing persuasion, but I must start with influence, which means I accept. I do accepting body language, open palm gestures. Yeah, yeah, open palm gestures.

41:26And I do really accepting language. Yes, good, all right, lovely. Do you know what's making sense to me? Because it just validates one of my best sales techniques. And now it's making sense. Now I have a why it works kind of reason. So I say this to my team a lot. The best way to sell to anyone is to just tell them a problem in a better way. Yeah. So whatever your problem is, if I am here to sell you something, I don't have to go and tell you a solution. I have to come and describe your pain point way better than you're even thinking about. So whatever your problem is, if I can describe it in a much better way, I'll have your trust.

42:11And once I have your trust, I'll be able to then provide you solutions and you're more likely to say yes if you get a sense that I understand your problem. And now it makes sense because then I'm in the river and that's where I'm able to persuade you. Yeah, so let me even build on that Because this will be really helpful for anybody who's selling out there. What you said there is perfect. Okay. You must describe their problem better than them. Yeah. Because probably their issue, why haven't they been buying? Okay. They have a problem. There's solutions out there in the world. Why haven't they been buying?

42:45Well, they haven't been able to really describe the problem in a way that really helps them describe a solution. Yes. You know? And so if you help describe the problem, the solution becomes way more clear and visible to them. Now, here's where often people go wrong body language-wise in selling. They do the body language of a salesperson rather than the body language of a buyer. Okay? Explain. Yeah. So think about that classic salesperson in your head. Okay? The classic salesperson. Okay? And describe to me what their behavior is like, what their body language is right. The classic salesperson.

43:28They're coming, excellent communicator. They're on your face. They're on your face. Yeah, yeah. They're in there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A little bit aggressive and arrogant about the product. And they just know this. Mr. Know-it-all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you did it there brilliantly. So if I'm doing this selling behavior, let me mirror that selling behavior to you. And here's what I'm doing, you know, because often the people who are like that, they're not great salespeople. OK, so they're not describing the problem. They're describing the solution. And I'm hammering you with the solution right now.

44:03You know, I mean, literally hammering you with the solution. OK, horrible, horrible. Yeah, I hate it. Horrible. And if they even manage to sell, the person is back the next day with the product or service and going, I don't feel good about it. I just bought it because I was pressured. Okay. Now tell me this. What's the body language of a buyer? Body language of a buyer who is really enjoying the process of buying. Really enjoying like this is a good, I'm going to end up with a solution here. This is going to feel good. What's the body language of the buyer?

44:39Relaxed. Yeah. Calm. Yeah, calm. I'm the one with power and money. I'm going to be... Right. Right. And just imagine as well, they don't yet have a solution because they're still a buyer. They're not sold. They haven't solved their problem. So they are relaxed, but are they relaxed and sitting back and like, this is of no concern, or are they relaxed and forward? Are they investigating? Are they engaged? Are they sharp? Are they... Yeah. They're investigating. They're a little confused. They're trying to figure out something. I like that. A little confused. Okay. So look, here's what I could do.

45:24Let me do that relaxed, but a little bit forward, a little bit confused kind of behavior with you right now. And imagine me trying to describe the problem and going, Raj, so the problem we have here is it a little bit like this. You know, you feeling like it's like this and then, you know, you get into this territory and it's like, ah, it's a little bit painful there. Okay. So now you've got that kind of salesperson or you've got this one here who's got the solution and is hammering you with it. Okay. What I would suggest is a combination of what you're saying there and what I'm saying, which is, can you go into that sales situation and describe their problem even better than they do?

46:12I mean, take their description. So I might say, so what's it like? Tell me about it. And I might investigate it with you. Okay. Interesting. Tell me more about that. Okay. And then I might go, okay, well, what if we described it like this? Is it a little bit of this as well? A little bit of that. So I'm being gentle. I'm being softer. Certainly not that hammering salesperson. And then I'm going, so do you want to follow me and just have a look at what might work about this? So I'm now saying, do you want to follow me? Do you want to? And you most likely will because it's influence. It's influence.

46:53I got in the river with you And actually, I describe the river better for you. So look, you know, if people take nothing more than that away today, if you're in sales, that is going to heighten your sales numbers massively. I didn't even think that we're going to talk about sales. We just made like the best way to sell a thing, a section here. But tell me, what's different between influence and manipulation? shit. A lot of people might use this to manipulate people and that's wrong. That's not something that I want to teach. Okay. So here's what I'm going to do first of all. You've probably realized now that I really enjoy where words come from.

47:37Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's established now. Yeah. Yeah. No shit, Sherlock. Yeah. Yeah. So etymology, the study of where words come from. Okay. Okay. Manipulate from mani, from hands. Okay. And so it's interesting. The Egyptian god of language, Thoth, is a gibbon. And the reason we think that those ancient Egyptians made their god of language a gibbon is the gibbon was the closest thing with hands like human beings that could manipulate the world. And they realized that language is a manipulation. Language is an abstraction. Look, I mean, mug. I mean, but is it? I mean, if I describe it correctly, mug is just an abstraction that means I manipulate the universe to make you recognize something so that we can join in on something.

48:32because what it actually is, it becomes unfathomable at some point. So we have to abstract. And ultimately, when I say, hey, Raj, my mug, okay, I manipulated you. But, I mean, was it bad? Was it good? Was it? It was harmless. It was harmless. Okay. So manipulation in itself is neither good nor bad. It just is a thing. We manipulate all the time. We take something and we turn it into something else. We turn all of these molecules spinning at, you know, a thousand and a half miles an hour. OK, on a planet moving at a thousand miles an hour through, you know, a universe going at about, oh, God, a million point three miles an hour.

49:21OK. And we say words like mug and microphone and table and mark and Raj. OK. And they're all manipulations. OK, but and then either here nor there until you decide or I decide the abstraction was bad. OK, so now we've got to work out our moral compass. OK, now we've got to work out what do we think is bad and what do we think is good? And how are we going to behave in order to do more good than bad? And what are we going to do about people who, in our view, and maybe in a completely objective view of all human beings on the planet, they go, yeah, that was bad. Okay, what are we going to do about that?

50:06Because it will happen, okay? But I try and avoid using that word manipulation as a negative word because we all do it all the time. What I want to do is make sure that I'm in control of my manipulations. because I don't want to go through the world going, oh, I kind of accidentally did something bad then.

50:33I did something bad or I tried to do something good and it turned out bad and it's like, well, you weren't paying attention. You didn't understand that person. You didn't understand that they would see your abstraction as bad rather than good. It's good in your world. It's bad in their world. Yeah. So we got to understand each other so much better. And the unfortunate thing about understanding each other so much better is it's really hard work. Yeah. Like it's really hard. It is. You know, and, and it's complex. It's hard and it's complex. Okay. So look back to your early, earlier point of, of look, you don't want to manipulate.

51:17Well, well, good for you. So now you've got to do the business of deciding. Yeah. You got to decide like what is bad, what is good. And you've got to keep yourself strong on that direction and that compass, because there will be plenty that comes along to try and knock you away from that. Plenty that comes along. You know, you've said somewhere where I was reading that even before you say a word, people put you in one of the four boxes. What are those four boxes? Tell me. And why people put me in one of the four boxes even before I've uttered a word? Right. So you walk into the room or you come onto the stage or you come up in front of them on the podcast and they've never seen you before their instinct immediately is going based on your behavior right now based on trying to predict the future with you based on the behavior that i see right now is raj a friend to me if i spend time with him will i come out with more than i went in with am i going to profit from him okay is he an enemy to me is he a threat if i spend time with him will he take away more resource than he gives me.

52:32Yeah, I'll be in deficit. Yeah. Is he a potential sexual partner to me? Yeah. Does he have some genetic code? You know, does he does he does he look like, you know, that this he would be a benefit not only to me, but future generations? Yeah. Is there something about that? And if not friend or enemy or mate, there's one category left and that is that the audience, whoever it might be, are indifferent to you. They just go, who cares? Nothing. It's a nothing. Yeah. And in the world of a podcast on YouTube, you see them, they've checked out within 15 seconds. They've gone, this isn't for me. Now we know in the way the podcast is put together, there's a bunch of other factors.

53:17We get that. But ultimately they are going to look at the human being, you know, it'll be my fault on this show as much as it is yours

53:30thank you

53:36I'll take half I'll take half the blame I'll take half the credit okay but they'll they'll look at us and they'll go regardless of what it said in the title and what the thumbnail was like they'll see our behavior and they'll either go yeah this is going to be good i can feel it yeah or no this is gonna this is gonna be a waste of time i was like oh they're nice yeah i'll hang around with them yeah yeah or they're like forget it no it's like not and they're just onto something else yeah yeah which of course as you know like the internet is full of but the world is full of and listen you can you can try it out when you walk out of here today and there's a lot of people out there you know and any of our watchers and listeners when you get out you know and maybe i mean maybe you're walking along the street right now with your with your earpods in so you can do it right now okay which as you see people coming towards you okay just notice how your instinct is going is going oh yeah interesting oh yeah oh move around them okay but i bet you're not even getting much of a sense of that i bet you're mainly going indifferent, indifferent, indifferent, indifferent, indifferent, don't care, don't care, don't care, don't care.

54:53Okay. And that's really important because if you are a top performer, okay, you want to get in that positive category with people, that friend category with people, like this person is going to be beneficial. You need to know before you've even pitched that audience that they're already going, this is going to be good. Yeah. But they are biased towards indifference because there are 8.7 billion people on the planet. So they have to be biased towards indifferent. So we've got to know we've got to hit friend category on purpose. We can't just go, I'm a great guy. I'm a great girl. I'm a good man.

55:35I'm a good woman. Yeah, I guess. It's going to be okay. That's a build it and they will come attitude. So I'm smart. It'll happen for me. That's a gamble. It's a gamble. You've got to really work hard on making it happen, not just intellectually, but in the persona that you give off, in the behaviors that you do on purpose in order to attract those people towards you to go. This is the behavior of benefit. Now, again, what might that look like? I'm going to go backwards. Open palm gestures, taking up space. Yeah. Deciding and doing the same thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Predictability is going to really help you there.

56:22Let me give you two more things to add to that so we can build it. Let's say open palm gestures at exactly navel height. Yeah. So I'm going to be really specific now. open palm gestures at exactly navel height. And also I'm going to add to that symmetrical gestures. Okay. Open palm gestures at navel height. This is a really vulnerable area on my body. So your instinct, that part of your brain, 500 million years old, knows that this is vulnerable on me just as it's vulnerable on you. And it knows that if I'm doing open palm gestures, no tools, no weapons and displaying that area, I don't think there's a risk in the room.

56:58There's no predators in the room. I'm not a predator. You're not a predator. No predators. This is a low-risk environment. So when I start telling you, hey, I'd love you to put an investment with me. I think you will get your money back 10x'd. Yeah? I've just given you a high-risk thing. Yeah. But I've shown you low risk. Yeah? If I now show you asymmetrical gestures and I hide one of them, okay, and I come in close to the table, And I say, I'd just like you to give me just not all your money, just$10. Okay, just$10. And I think I can make it into 12 for you. Okay. I'm thinking. You're still thinking.

57:43Yeah, this one here. I'd like you to fully invest. Fully invest because I believe we can 10x this money. Yeah, notice how this feels safer. But mathematically, it's a higher risk. Yeah. So open palm gestures, navel height and symmetry is way more predictable. What if I do the chest? Well, this is what I would call the passion plane. So I call this the truth plane, the horizontal gesture plane of truth, the passion plane up here. When my hands go up here, your instinct knows that my heart rate and breathing rate should have gone up. The higher my hands go, the more the heart has to pump to the fingers.

58:25OK, so you knowing that you're getting a theory of mind about me that I'm more excited now I am or I'm not. But your theory is that I am. And I know for a fact that your heart rate and breathing rate will be going up to mirror mine. Mine doesn't have to, but yours will. And so long as I make a choice, make it bigger and keep it tidy. I'm really clear with this. I'll be exciting you. Yeah. So if I say things like, look, Raj, I want you to stay calm about this. Okay. Don't you get excited about this one? Yeah. But if I say here, look, Raj, I want you to stay calm about this. Don't you get excited about this?

59:03Okay. Notice how you follow me in that. Here, you're going to get excited. Yeah. Yeah. If I tell you, if I tell you, look, you know, I'm passionate about this. I'm excited about this. It feels true. If I go, look, I'm passionate about this. I'm excited about this. I don't feel true. Well, now my hands are down in what we call the grotesque plane. Grotesque. So nice. Again, medieval Latin word from the grottos, from the caves, from the darkness. Yeah. Here it's more covert. It's more hidden. yeah you you instantly if even if i was standing and my hands were down by my side you won't see the palms of my hands unless i turn them out in a really awkward way so it's more covert and hidden down here so you're you're going to feel less energized by this you're going to be more suspicious of this well now i know that now i know that you're more suspicious more low-key more de-energized down here.

1:00:00You trust this area and you get excited up here. Here's what I could do with this. I could go, so look, Raj, last year, the company made$5 million in profit, which is a fantastic amount. I'm really pleased about that. Now, this year, we're going for$20 million. It's an extraordinary amount. I know. It's exciting. Yeah. And it's extreme. I get that. And there are people, there are people outside of this room who say, look, it just can't be done. But I have to say, we're doing those numbers and we're doing those numbers right now. So in that, I take you to these different horizontal planes and I start to instruct you how to think and feel about what I'm saying.

1:00:42Now I'm going to do exactly the same pitch at you. Okay. And just remember, like, how did you, how did you feel about the$5 million that we're already doing? You trusted it. You're like, okay, good, fine. Great, great, great. What did you think about the 20 that we were wanting to go to? I mean, it was extreme, but I was passionate about it. What did you think of those people who said it can't be done? Those people. It's like you weren't into them, were you? You were like, oh, who cares about them? And then when I said, look, we're doing those numbers and we're doing those numbers right now, you're in acceptance.

1:01:13You're in agreement. Let me do this, okay? I'm not going to organize my behavior at all. I'm going to give you the same pitch. So, Raj, look, last year the company made$5 million in profit, which is a fantastic amount. I'm really pleased about that. Now, this year, we're going for$20 million. $20 million is an extraordinary amount, I know. You know, it's extreme. And there are people outside of this room who say it can't be done. But I have to say, we're doing those numbers, and we're doing those numbers right now. Same language, same pitch. That's how most people present. That's how most people are going to do it.

1:01:51But what I did, I took three specific gesture planes and I cut it up into that. Truth, passion, grotesque, and back to truth. I took you on a lovely little ride through those numbers. None of which you know whether to be true or false. None of them. which is what happened you you've been in an you're an angel investor yourself you know you go and see some pitches and at that point you have no audited you have nothing yeah you're going what's my sense on this i mean yes you've got a whole bunch of context you're like i think i know something of the markets around this i've had some businesses in this area in this area you've got some context, but you don't know specifically about this one here.

1:02:39Like it's a, it's a unknown world. Yeah. You're getting an instinct for it, aren't you? I'm not saying you don't then go off and investigate properly because of course you do, but there's only so far you can investigate as well where you just run out of, we have no history. We have no numbers. You know, we're doing trust. We're doing belief. So we're literally in the worlds of trust and credibility here. And what I was doing there was body language that helps you feel that my language is trustworthy and credible. Nice. You do this for all the world leaders and so many more people. Tell me, what did you notice about me till now?

1:03:22What are the mistakes that I'm making? Well, look, you've been doing this a long time. Okay. So you kind of know what you're doing. You know what you're doing. Here's what I want to let your listeners, your watchers here know about you and your behavior and how skilled you are. Is that I came into the room today and I was early. I was at least like 20 minutes earlier than I suggested that I would be. Because I'm English. I'm British. We like to be early. You know, time. Time is very valued. Yeah. Time is very valued, okay? You immediately invited me in, okay? You didn't go, hey, well, so Mark, so like you're a little bit early, mate.

1:04:09You know, can you hang out? Can you not, you know, I didn't know whether you might be doing something else, have another guest in at this point, so I don't know. So I'm being quiet and I'm being careful about it. Here's what was interesting about your behavior. You took my bag. You took my bag. Yeah? Well, that's really interesting because, you know, you're an important person. This is your podcast. But you decided I will take your bag, Mark. Yeah, it wasn't left to, you know, one of your team. You decided to do that. And I decided to give it to you. That's my bag. It's got my possessions in. It's got my passport in it.

1:04:50It's got vital things to me. Yeah. So you made that move of saying, can I look after something that is yours and of value? And I went, yes, you can. Yeah. And that was a brilliant trust making moment. Yeah. And you may know that or not know that. OK. But I mean, it is worth pointing that out for anybody watching and listening that that moment there of you being kind and being humble, yeah, actually means so much more because of the nature of the contents of that. you know and you may know that or not know that but it's worth people knowing that it's that small things like that can have massive significance that the conscious mind often doesn't know instantly we're trying to work out okay where do we align so we do the whole conversation about coffee and tea yeah you know obviously you know we can align on tea yeah that's a good it's a good kind of cultural you know gamble you know um oh and by the way so you offered me uh a drink you know can i get you some coffee can i get you some tea so you offer me resource yeah uh i don't take the resource you offer it again you know to check because you don't know maybe i'm somebody's gonna go oh no until until you ask for two times or three times or or whatever um and and maybe you asked three times to really check that it's not the culture of you need to force it on me.

1:06:32And I was like, no, no, literally, I'm really low maintenance. I've got the water. It's fantastic. But just understand that dance and that maneuver of making somebody really comfortable, trying to find where you align, not getting into the business of things immediately, actually meant that really we were into the interview pretty fast. I was going, oh, I'll just give you content. We'll just get into this stuff. And what was already happening was a real conversation between two people that would be completely broadcastable. How quickly you've done a great job of moving me into relaxed interview really fast.

1:07:22At the same time, I'm trying to do the same job, you know, but I think that worked out really well. Now, I also I'm going to say one last thing is that what you do really well is you're very good at what I would call in body language, your your moderators. okay so moderators are the gestures that we use in order to say look it's my go now yeah i'm gonna do something okay or i'm not gonna do anything yeah often people call them regulators as well regulators i call them moderators and so at the moment just before you kind of reached out for your cup there okay you've got your hands like this and basically it's a moderator to say mark you just keep on going yeah just keep on going this is great keep on going keep on going then And every now and again, I'll kind of notice maybe, you know, you'll check your pad.

1:08:13You'll maybe go to, okay, your laptop where I imagine you've got, okay, we could ask this question, this question. You're very gentle about it. You know, you're not flustered about it. You're not like, oh, God, we've got to get on. We've got to get on. Very gentle about it. But what it gives me is a very nice, subtle, unhurried signal of, oh, okay, so we could move on. We could move on. So, look, just a couple of things there. and maybe I don't know maybe the camera's picking up some of those as well you could show the audience some of those things that you do but anyway it is masterful what you're what you're doing there and that's that's not to be I'm not surprised about that because you've got a show that keeps on going and keeps on going and people like it and it's because of the of what you get out of the the subject and that because people see that you get that out of the subject and therefore you get great viewers that people then go, oh, I'll come and do an interview with that person because he's clearly good at this.

1:09:13Nice. That just makes me too good to feel good about myself right now. Well, that's okay. You can feel good about yourself. You've just put me on a pedestal right now, but okay. Bring me down. Tell me one mistake. Tell me one thing that I could do better so that I'm really getting better at this art. Okay. So let me just show you what you did did there maybe they can replay it on the camera okay when you started to tell tell okay tell me one thing i can get better you did an adapter yeah now it's not surprising you do an adapter because you were putting yourself in a negative frame of mind because you're asking for criticism which is brave okay but i noticed when you asked for the criticism you did this adapter that says I'm not dressed as well as I could be.

1:09:59There's something wrong. So here's what I'm going to predict with you. When you get more stressed, when you feel less confident about yourself, I bet you start doing those adapters. A lot. A lot.

1:10:18Interesting. In social settings as well, I just take my blazer and do this. yeah and i'm like yeah there you go oh and then and so you you adapted that and then you minimized as well which is like you tucked in yeah to this delicate area here to go oh don't attack me don't attack me but this is great because you now know this about yourself you now know this okay and you know the opposite of that would be something like open palm gestures at navel height because you You cannot adapt when you're doing open palm gestures. And you cannot minimize when you're doing open palm gestures at navel height.

1:10:57So you want to be doing that when you're under stress and under pressure. Now, here's the problem, is that those things can feel like they take you by surprise. They can feel like they take you by surprise, okay? But I bet they don't take you so much by surprise. And let me just test that. what have you got coming up yeah in your life it might be a work thing or it might be a social thing or coming up where you're already thinking oh okay i've got to go and do that yeah i can think of you got it in your head okay and i just want you to you don't need to tell me the date of it okay but you know when it is don't you yeah a week from now yeah okay my guess is you know what time it is as well yeah okay so you know it's coming like it's in your diary you could give it to me and i could put it in my diary so i could call you beforehand and say hey raj you're about to adapt and minimize by the way you know it's going to happen okay we've got the date and we've got the time okay we have it so now what i want you to think when you wake up that morning you I want you to be doing open palm gestures.

1:12:12Now, I want you to start the behavior early. I want you to do it before you go into that place. I don't want you to get suddenly caught going, oh, I'm meant to be doing this. I want you doing it right from moment one. So you're getting that cycle in your head of there's no predators in the room. I'm not a predator. This is a low risk environment for me. so that you start to almost con yourself that it's that. Okay? Because my guess is I bet you can handle that situation. Yeah. Yeah, of course you can. Yeah, I've done that multiple times. Right, right. Of course you can. But there's a part of you that constantly goes, yeah, but can you?

1:12:56I mean, you've done it before, but can you do it this time? This one's bigger. This one's bigger. All right, that's the thing. Yeah, but that was a small one. This one's a bigger one. And you can intellectually go, yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's only, you know, X amount more or it's such a, but your instinct is not intellectual. It can't understand the mathematics of that. It doesn't even remember the past like that. It goes, no, but this is a future that we don't know. And so let's protect ourselves. Okay. And you're never going to shut that down, but you can decide your behaviors when that talk happens.

1:13:34Okay? But you've got to start them early. Got to start them early, and we know the date, and we know the time. And what I did with you just then, anybody watching or listening can do the same, do exactly the same. So I want you to think, you know, what's coming up for you that's making you think, oh, gosh, not them, or oh, that thing, or oh, I've done that before, but this one's different. Okay. Look at it. You know, the date, you know, the time, or even if you don't, you'll know beforehand it's coming up. You'll go, oh, right. It's them. They're coming towards me. Right. You'll know it's happening immediately.

1:14:11I want you to do open palm gestures, navel height. Yeah. And accept, accept, accept. Yeah. I'm here. I'm here and influence. Oh, good. We're going that way, are we? Great. Good. This is great. Influence. Get in the river with it. Yeah. Instead of trying to push back from it. Yeah. Or escape it. Why do some people become small in front of really important and powerful people? Sometimes in the culture, it's expected. I mean, sometimes it's expected. So, for example, example, in some cultures, there's literally a bow of the head and I will make myself small. Yeah, it's the same. So it's expected that I will lower myself, but then you come back up again.

1:14:58But for some, they might not come back up again and therefore they might not start to look like a valuable asset and help to that high status person. So now they've lowered themselves, but they haven't come up again. Yeah. Again, we've spoken about this book. Why does it happen? I know so many confident people, they're just very confident. But the moment their boss comes, as if they're a different person or the moment someone, let's say, a leader or a politician or someone famous or someone who's with more money, in their head, if they start thinking that the other person is superior and more powerful, they just become so small and meek and their energy, like you can see them, even though physically they're just as tall and as strong, but you can see that they've become this, they succumbed into something else.

1:15:53So I would say it's part of the fight and flight mechanism. Okay. So it is that instinct going, that's powerful. They're powerful. The power could harm me. It could take away more resource than it gives me. Yeah. And therefore that's a predator. And so the first thing we do in front of a predator, the fight and flight system is actually freeze. We're just still completely. Okay. Because that's the cheapest way to get out of trouble because the predator might just pass on by and not notice you. Yeah. Now, if it notices you, okay, now make yourself smaller because maybe you were still, but too big.

1:16:34So now be still and really small because maybe it'll go, that's just a little one. I want a big one. Okay. That's a small meal. Go get me a big meal. Okay. So now we're hoping it passes on by. Okay. Now it's coming towards you. Okay. Well, now just like, don't look like a threat. If you don't look like conflict, it won't attack. It won't attack. So now you're getting smaller and smaller and smaller. Yeah. It's still coming towards me. It's still coming towards me. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. Now back off. Now get close to furniture. Yeah. Get close to resource. Get your resource close to you. Yeah. Be even smaller.

1:17:14Yeah. So you can, if you have to run, because we may have to run at some point, you can take all your resources with you. Yeah. So that's not working. If that person gets cornered and small, yeah, and the person becomes seemingly aggressive to them, then they go to fight. Now they're being aggressive with the person and they don't even know why. They don't even know why. And you may have seen that. The person who was timid, suddenly they're being angry and aggressive back because now they were a cornered animal. Yeah, which is there's nothing more violent than a cornered animal because they've lost all sense of risk.

1:17:53Yeah, they get bitter. Yeah, all sense of risk at that point. Now, if that doesn't work for them, And they do what's called the play dead response, which is now in the work situation, that is now they take sick days. They can't come in. Yeah, they're now making themselves in. They stop showing up. Yeah, they stop showing up. Stop showing up. Play dead response. But it's, you know, to your point, why do people make themselves smaller? It's the fight and flight mechanism. It's instinct. I used to do that when I started my podcast and whenever in my head the other person's really important once in a lifetime opportunity sort of kind of guest my energy would just go really really low like I would succumb I'll become the smallest person in the room and I would not be my natural self you can see that on the camera that what happened like last podcast Raj was different how is this like a different person again right and in the next person you can next podcast you can still see me again like a you know and only on this few episodes and I was speaking to one of my friends so he asked me a very very good question and he said okay because I described that you know what I feel like I become powerless I feel like I become a different person so they asked me that what does a powerful podcaster look like to you and I'm like what does it look like no I started thinking about who are the people yeah no don't give me people tell me the characteristics what are they doing what is the right most powerful confident really in the element kind of podcaster is doing right because because I told them that arrogance anger all of this is not powerful, like this is not weak.

1:19:45Someone who's confident, relaxed. So he made me visualize what it is like. And they just kept telling me, now think about this person again and again and do this for next two, three days. That's great advice. And three days later when I spoke to him, like, oh, I have this clear picture of what this person looks like. These are the characteristics. He's like, okay, now start imagining that that's you and think that you are the person with all these traits and start thinking that you're just there. Right. And I started thinking about, oh, this is how my body language is. This is when I shut up. This is when I go aggressive.

1:20:20This is when I'm humble. This is when I'm married. And that really helped. Right. Like just me imagining myself in my best version, I don't know when it just became my most authentic self. You know, that's brilliant. Number one, brilliant advice from your friend. You should get more advice from that friend. Okay. I don't know whether their other advice will be good, but that advice was really good. And here's why. There's lots about that that's really brilliant. Number one is what he was suggesting there is think of a star. Yeah. Okay? Stars are brilliant because stars are the things that guide us at night.

1:21:00Okay? When we don't know which direction to go and we're feeling pretty lonely and we're like, what the hell do I do? What we used to do is look to the stars because those were the things that were constant and were bright in that darkness. And so you pick a star and you go, okay, well, what are the behaviors? What's that thing doing? What's that person doing? You're not trying to embody their spirit or be them or they're just going, what's the behavior there? What's the outside behavior, the way they're moving, the way they're, what's their rhythm? When does it change? Yeah. We would call that emulation.

1:21:45So often people have stars and they emulate those stars. Yeah. And so some people would say, and in my view, they'd be totally wrong. They'd go, oh, you're just faking it. You're just faking it until you make it. It's like, that's ridiculous. That is so ridiculous, right? Number one, because that's how we do all of our behavior. When you go to sleep, you pretend to be asleep first of all. You lie down, you close your eyes, and then you fake it first of all. You fake it. A lot of the things you do in your life, you imagine them in your head beforehand. I'm making a cup of tea and I have it in my head.

1:22:26Oh, I'll make a cup of tea. And I see some of the pictures of me walking across into the kitchen and making the what's the way fake it in my head, first of all. Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm trying to predict how would it fit? What are the barriers? What will I have to get around? That's just making a cup of tea, not trying to be a great, you know, podcast interviewer. That's just making a cup of tea. We fake it beforehand. Going to sleep, which we do hopefully every night, we fake it beforehand. So when you're doing something really hard, something of a top performance level, get yourself a star. Follow the behaviors of that star.

1:23:07Because also what you might find out is the behaviors aren't as you imagined. I've got a question for you. um um who who is it that you've interviewed that has caused you most to go oh i'm in trouble now like this is this is out of my league you don't need to say me okay no in league in terms of before the person arrived like oh this i don't know what's happening yeah yeah yeah like who What figure has made you the most question, am I up to it? Yeah, is it happening with me? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow.

1:24:00President, I would say president, French president. Yeah, I was going to think because my wife sent me a message earlier. He said, by the way, he interviewed the French president for like 40 minutes. Like not 10 minutes, like 40 minutes. It's like, that's, yeah. So you've been like me where you've got in front of those people. And I'm the same. I go, uh-oh, like that's a real world leader now. But I was really confident in front of him. I think because I was so well prepared. Right. And also to give it to him because his energy was, he just made it a point to make everyone in the room so comfortable that he didn't come across as a person who would get angry if I asked him anything.

1:24:49He came across as a person who was like, go ahead, bash me. That's really interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very rare. I've met so many world leaders all around the world and like a bunch of presidents and prime ministers they make it a point that you feel that they are yeah someone yeah right yeah or at least if not them people around them make it a thing that before even you reach to them you know like yeah yeah yeah they are the thing so you you don't you're not even in a mood of trying to analyze the other person you're already in a mode that oh my god like i just not what if i just shake hand in a different way and I'll be crushed for life.

1:25:31Him and his team, I think they did a commendable job because not just me, a person who was at the camera who had literally, who wouldn't even I think shake hands with anyone and be at the back. He felt comfortable as if he could ask anything to anyone because the whole team came, asked everybody, shook hands, spoke to everyone very lightly before even we started talking the president who has probably no time you know came and met like 20 people of my team member individually before even he started sitting with me wow and just told everyone thank you for their time and i was so i think he did a great job now i have a way to actually understand what are the ways that i can get around and that is in the first five to 10 minutes just by doing the social chatter.

1:26:23I, in my head, make green zone, red zone, gold zone. Tell me more about that. So with almost every person who I do some chatter in the beginning, purposely try to say something awkward or something personal or something nice to test how good are they responding to it. So I know this is a green zone, this is a red zone, this is a gold zone. And I would search a lot about them and try to figure out what are the things that they hate, what are the things in the past they've ignored, what are the things that they try to, you know, avoid and diplomatically answer, what are the things that they're really passionate about, they keep talking about.

1:27:06So in my head, I make that. And then I make some awkward question around date. That's pretty. And so would you do that in order to make sure you avoid the red zones, or would you use it to go, oh, I might move into the red zone at some point? I do that not for to avoid a red zone. I do that so that I know when to bring the red zone. So, you know, it's really interesting, the tone of your voice during that. the type of question it is which is an emotional one like how did you feel around that rather than you did that yeah how did you feel around it gets get somebody to a confession rather than the accusation true and again i would say one is more influential yeah and persuasive i'm never forgetting this.

1:28:06In the river is the best thing you've told me today. It's like, if you can't get in the river, in the flow with someone, you can't influence them. That's my biggest takeaway from you, Ma. Tell me how can somebody, give me tricks, okay? Give me two or three tricks. How can I win an argument? Or how can I disarm a person who's just arguing? Oh, just agree. Again, I go back to influence just agree with them yeah but let's say i don't want to agree with them okay then agree with them and make it worse so that this completely disarms people okay agree with them and make it work you go yeah and it's worse than that so here's what happens when you argue with me you're actually quite comfortable might feel to me like oh this is out of control like he's really aggressive like you're enjoying it you're having a great time you argue at your comfort level.

1:29:05And so what happens if you go, yeah, exactly. And like, it's much worse than that. And you exaggerate that is you get uncomfortable. You get unbalanced. Yeah. So if you come to me and you say, hey, Mark, you did this and you did this. And, you know, I might go, I also did this and this. And so I'll make it bigger and bigger and bigger. Okay. Which to a point you might go, no, you didn't do that. So, okay, what did I really do then? So if I can take you outside of your comfort zone, yeah, you will spring back further than you were before to rebalance yourself. interesting okay rebalance yourself and so um what we want to do is when you come to argue we want to push back push back and push back equally yeah instead of going yeah right let's go that way let's go that way further than you ever thought we would go into a place where you're super uncomfortable with it yeah so i call that make it worse make it worse if someone's arguing make it worse yes and this yeah uh so you can do this as well a yes and and this you can you can you can go you can go what what else what else yeah you can even go it's worse than that yeah again they're at their comfort level yeah you you were telling me you you can't argue for very long it's very tiring yeah which means that you can only do it for so long and then you get uncomfortable so i'm just going to escalate it and escalate it and escalate it really fast so that you can't tolerate it so you're like oh i can't do that i'll give up yeah because that heightened emotion you can only really do for about 10 minutes maximum so if i can heighten it really fast yeah and exhaust you 10 minutes later you'll have forgotten it you're blown out you know it's Extreme is often an emotional extreme, which means you've got all this calcium up one end of neurons and they have to, for the neurons to fire.

1:31:20Neurons, we often talk about the brain and electricity because we often go like the brain is like a computer and it's nothing like a computer. If it were a computer, it would be run on electricity and calcium. So these calcium switches, the calcium has to go from one end of a neuron to another to then fire the electrons. And this calcium part of it is really kind of tricky because just enough comes across and the neuron fires, but then all the rest of it goes across as well. And it's got no more up this end, so it can't fire again and needs time to get all the calcium back one end again in order for it to fire.

1:31:59So the brain kind of gets wiped out of the anger, the emotion, whatever it might be, the argumentativeness. It dispenses with all of it and it can't do it again for quite a while, which means if I can escalate you quite quickly, then, you know. You'll hit your limit. Then you'll hit your limit. Then I give you a little bit of a rest and I go, so what was the problem? Oh, I don't know. A lot of husbands and wives in the comments won't agree with this. Yeah, they'll be, oh, he can go for much longer than that. Oh, she can go for much longer. Exactly. No, they can't. No, well, okay, so here's what happens.

1:32:40You have an emotion, okay? The emotion can last, at a heightened state, can last for about 10 minutes maximum, sometimes even less, okay? and um then it could become a mood like a mood could last for hours yeah could even last couple of days after a couple of days it's tough to keep the mood yeah so usually it'll dissipate somewhat if the mood continues for like more than three days we might say it's a it's an affective disorder which is like well they're depressed or you know it's longer it's much longer term it's not a mood anymore you know this is a longer term chemical and there must be something else bothering there's something else going going on you know that that that has set a pathway there okay but yeah you know he she is angry all the time no that would be enough that's an affective disorder.

1:33:45That might be depression, that might be something else. It would be unfair to go, that's anger, that's aggression, and it's probably something else. But tell me all of these things, right? Doesn't that make you inauthentic? I was going through your talk. It says that the importance of being inauthentic. Everybody says that you need to be authentic and the most natural charismatic way to attract more people, to become more likable, to become and attract more opportunities is to be authentic because people see authentic. In fact, there was a study in Harvard, who are the leaders who you trust the most?

1:34:30Who are the leaders who you're going to be around even at the time when things are not going well? And the traits and the qualities which absolutely stood out. The top two qualities, one of them was authenticness. Yeah. How authentic they are. So if the trust and likability is going to be dependent on authenticness, don't you think doing all of these things is becoming inauthentic? All right. Well, let's just test the idea. First of all, let's have a conversation about this. So let's actually work out what authentic is. Okay, so define authenticity for me. The default setting. Oh, the default setting.

1:35:15Okay, great. Lovely. Lovely. Lovely. What's your default setting? See, now you're going to go back and be like, everything that I've picked up is from my parents, from my culture, from the way I've been brought up. Well, that is. That's true. It is. And there's your own stuff as well. Yes. There's your own stuff as well. So all of this, I'm a product of my environment. Yeah. I'm product of the content I've consumed. Yeah. The people I've met. Yeah. The parents I was born to. The family I was born into. That sounds quite complicated and complex. Yeah. Yeah. All of these people have given me certain traits, which is just the way I am.

1:35:52And do they all show all at the same time? Oh, no. Oh, okay. So which trait is... So hang on. So which is the authentic you write? Because this isn't maybe how you are with your parents. No, I'm not late. Okay. If I ask these many questions, they're going to shut the door on me. Yeah, you're being inauthentic with me right now? No. Okay, so I don't get it. This is my authentic podcast itself. Oh, okay. So there's a version of you. Oh, yeah. There are three Raj. Okay, three Raj. One is a podcaster Raj. Yeah, yeah, yeah. One is a friend, family person Raj. Yeah. And one, there's a team leader Raj.

1:36:35These are like three different Raj. Why don't I get to see the friends and family Raj right now? What is it? Why don't I get that? Am I not good enough for that, Raj? Do we not? Because I'm at... I thought we were, you know, getting on. I'm playing this role in my life right now. I know you're playing a role. Sounds very inauthentic. So I don't get it anymore because... I see where you're going. Your audience is going to... You're a great podcaster. So you must be being authentic. but now you've actually told me that I don't get to see all of you. So you can't be being authentic. I don't, I am now confused by authenticity.

1:37:12And it's not that you're wrong about what authenticity is. It's just, it's a concept which is utterly confusing and doesn't make any sense. And here's what people use it for yeah because it is unquantifiable and confusing and doesn't make any sense if i don't like what you're doing in the current climate in the current culture i can come up i can go to friends and i come up to you and i go i go raj i just don't think you were you've been being authentic with me you know and and i can go to other people and i go you know that raj you know i don't think he's being authentic and they'll go oh yeah and i can kind of get some shame on you around that when the reality was is i just didn't like what you were doing it's just a preference you know it's just a and if you don't show me all of you like i deserve all of you or i have a right to see everything in the current culture you must be authentic with me so you must show me everything like no no you you you have the right to show me whatever you like true or not and and sure you might find out of course you might find out wow you know if i show a bit more of the friend and family raj in a in a podcast i get people like it even more i don't know you'd have to experiment with that i don't know there's a risk there's a risk and so being fully authentic is a massive risk so it's so much of a risk to me that i will not do it on a podcast because if i do all of me on a podcast it will not be they will not like me they won't like me yeah but then how do you identify between a fake personality and real personality?

1:39:17Well, I worry about these words fake. I worry about the words. Because again, it's got a negative connotation to it. Like, like we shouldn't fake going to sleep, so therefore we shouldn't sleep. It's got a negative connotation that fake is not good. Yeah. Yet, um, um, yet, yet a fake Rolex, this is an Omega, but a fake Rolex I'll say, because there are more fake Rolexes than there are real Rolexes out there can give somebody just as much joy, gives no joy to Rolex, zero joy to Rolex. Rolex hate those things. Yeah. But a fake one for somebody can give them a feeling of that. And it's very hard to get a real one these days because you have to get on a list.

1:40:14And Rolex have gone, oh, there's only one way of getting this thing and we're going to squeeze the market. So it's like all the more reason for a fake because it's all about a feeling. And if you're not allowing that feeling to everybody, how are we going to get that feeling? Well, we can go for other brands. Of course we can. We should be able to get it how we get it. And if somebody goes, well, that's just a fake one, and they do it in a derogatory way, for me, I'm like, ah, get lost. Get lost. It's like there's nothing wrong. Even Picasso. So Picasso, one of the greatest, most known artists ever.

1:40:55There's a story about Picasso that says that his agent said to him, oh, I need you to come over to the gallery because we've got a whole bunch of potential fakes together and we want you to point them out to us. And he went along and he was like, yeah, okay, fake Picasso, fake Picasso, fake, fake Picasso. He pointed to one Picasso and his agent went, no, no, no, no, that one's a fake. It's like, we know that one's a fake. And he said, yeah, I didn't paint it, but it's a Picasso. So he understood the spirit behind it. He understood what it was trying to do. And he was saying, if you get a Damien Hirst spots painting, he hasn't painted them.

1:41:45He knows people who can paint them much better. He knows people who will paint his dots in a way that is far surpasses what he can do. yeah and but ultimately we could go well it's a fake well he goes it's a great hearst it's the best one you can get there was one of his um his artists one of his painters um she wanted the legend goes the story goes well she actually tells the story so it must be true um she wanted to put a an annex onto her house so she needed some money okay and hearsts are very valuable so she says to Damien, will you paint me a spots? Saying, give it to me so I can go and sell it.

1:42:29And he goes, no, you paint it. You paint it. She's like, yeah, but I want it to be one of yours. He said, yours are one of mine. You paint the best spots. You paint it. I'll sign it. You go sell it. It's like, so look, this idea of fake, I don't buy it at all. I don't buy it at all. There is nothing wrong with a fake. There's nothing wrong with a genuine fake. Let me tell you that. There is nothing wrong with a genuine fake. And it's about what's genuine, yeah? From genus, the first, yeah? The original, yeah? There's nothing wrong with it having that genie in it, that spirit in it. Now, of course, you can have fakes which are lifeless and they have nothing to them.

1:43:22They're a vacuum. And you can have fakes that can elicit in people exactly the genie that they want, exactly the spirit that they want. Wow. You make it sound like fake is okay. Fake is in fact good, because it gets you more opportunities than being real. Yeah. I mean, I just think you've just proved my point. It gets you more opportunities. Now, what you do with those opportunities, do you do something bad with the fake or do you do something good with the fake? Because it's the genius in it. It's the genuine nature of it. Something Picasso said, it's a fake, but it's genuine. Okay. So, you know, these words, these abstractions that we use to go, oh, fake is bad.

1:44:18Manipulation is bad. Yeah, if you do bad stuff with it, yeah, it is. If you do bad stuff with it and you think it's bad, it's bad. If you do bad stuff with it and they think it's bad, yeah, then both of you think it's bad. Yeah, if you do good stuff with it and people think it's good, it's good. sure i may think it's bad that's me we may not align on this so i'm probably not going to buy your fake now you might go well why do people buy then why do people buy fakes because they had a genuine quality for that person well where they duped yeah in some cases people are conned yeah absolutely but not to be not to victim blame but you know there's two ends to the phone on a con on a confidence trick.

1:45:09There's two ends to it and you need the other person. Look, lying is one of our most important social skills. The ability to tell a lie and to accept a lie is incredibly important to the fabric of society, of any society. And sometimes we know we do this is we know somebody's lying, but we go, oh yeah, yeah. Because we know it would be like, you know, when your friends are maybe exaggerating slightly. And that's a lie. Yeah. Yeah. But do you go, come on, it wasn't, it wasn't a hundred. It was only 57. Do you do that or do you go, we can leave it? Yeah. We can leave it because - relationship is made up of the acceptance of these exaggerations, which are ultimately lies and manipulations.

1:46:06Okay? Why is the person manipulating to tell a good story, to entertain people, to knit the fabric of society together? Now, if they tell a lie, which is not of benefit to that group, they'll be thrown out of the group or they'll be made to apologize for that. Okay? What part of the face lies the most? Is it eyes? Is it eyebrows? Is it lips? Mouth? Just purely from gesture point of view. There's no one thing anywhere in the body which is going to tell you somebody's lying. What we can tell from nonverbal communication is comfort and stress. Okay. Let's say comfort and stress. Okay. And we know for many people when they're lying, it's stressful for them.

1:46:54Yeah, it's difficult. It's difficult for the brain. What are the cues? Well, it would depend on the person. So the first thing you have to do is get a good idea of what they do when they're telling the truth. Okay? Good idea of what they do. What would be like general two, three things where you can actually spot whether this person is under stress or not? Oh, okay. Well, what you're going to do is look for a deviation from what they normally do when they're comfortable. Yeah? So what do you do when you're comfortable? How are you when you're comfortable? Yeah. Okay. So right now you're comfortable.

1:47:32And so tell me one thing that is the truth. Tell me the truth about something. Here's a good truth. How did you get here today? Just by walking from my hotel. Okay. Good, good, good. Good, good, good. And now what I want you to do, because I want you to notice, and the audience can notice this, what happens to you when you have to make up a story? So I want you to make up a story of what you're going to do this evening. I have to make up some random things. Yeah, what are you going to do this evening? I will drive to New Jersey and then I'll go to some adventure park there. I want you to see what he's doing.

1:48:18Yeah, but this lie is not rehearsed. See, no, so this lie is not rehearsed. There are a lot of people who have lies rehearsed and they can blatantly lie by making a story in their head. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they can be specific. So they've rehearsed the lie. Okay, they've rehearsed the lie. So now I know that what you do when you're under stress, you've got this self-soother here that you do. Yeah. You did this frown here like this, like, oh, this is going badly. You closed your eyes. You eye blocked for me as well as you went, oh, God, this is hard. Okay, so this is hard. Yeah. This is hard for you.

1:48:53Here's what I want you to do now. Okay. I'm going to get you to lie again. Okay. But I'm going to give you a moment. Yeah. In order to rehearse that lie. Okay. Okay. Over in your head. And I'd like you to do this as well. Rehearse the lie over in your head and also a little bit of preparation because I'm going to question you. A little bit of preparation on what I might ask you to try and uncover the reality of this. So we know you're going to be lying, but it'll be an interesting exercise. Again, you're going to rehearse now in your mind what you're going to do this evening. So just take a moment to do that.

1:49:35Rehearse it over in your head. Okay. Yeah, I'm happy with that. And just rehearse in your mind a few of the questions that I might ask you in order to think you've got a good idea about that. Okay. Okay, good. So, Raj, what are you going to be doing this evening? I'm going to take a flight to LA and record a podcast with Simon. With Simon? Senec. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where's the flight going out of? New York. Oh, okay. The JFK airport. The JFK airport. Yeah, yeah. And so, what time is that? It's 7.10. Yeah, yeah. How do you like Simon? I love him. I've been a fan of him since I was a kid. I really like him.

1:50:20I'm looking forward to it. Which airport again? JFK. Okay.

1:50:27So what I want you to notice is, well, first of all, this gesture that you've got going around here, the stress going on here. Yeah. And when you'd also notice, how do you like Simon? How much that softened up, the tonality of that. And when I asked you again, JFK, you were like, JFK. It's like, all right. I get it. It's like, why are you so angry with me? It's like, I'm only asking you the airport. It's like, I'm just questioning that. So do you notice your stress, even with rehearsal, your stress around? Now, we could go look, but they could have rehearsed forever and ever and ever. Yeah. And again, yes, the more they rehearse, possibly the more real it could become to them.

1:51:15Yeah. But ultimately, even with a little bit of rehearsal there and the right questioning, yeah, I'm seeing a big difference between how adamant you are about the airport. yeah and and the how much you like simon cynic which feels that feels more real to me yeah than the airport that you're saying you're flying out of and and even so it's likely that to fly to la you do fly out of out of canada yeah so so it's a reality but it doesn't feel comfortable for you so it's true you've done it a hundred times so you could have even gone so listen I want you to try I'm going to question you about JFK again okay and I just want you in your mind to remember all the times you've flown out of New York to JFK yeah so it's something you do so you should be able to lie to me really well about this yeah okay just take me through the journey from here to JFK and then just the journey here to JFK today, what route are you going to take, do you think?

1:52:32I don't know. I just kind of order an Uber and Uber is going to drive me there. So I wouldn't have any idea. Perfect. Perfect. Perfect. That's what I do all the time. I know. I know. I know. Yeah. No, I get that. I get that for sure. I get that. So what's the ticket look like? I don't know. It comes on my phone. I download the PDF. Just show it to them at the package counter. Just give my bags. You'll show it today? Yeah. I'll show them. Today? Yeah. You will be showing it today? Of course. Every time before you check in the bag, you have to show them, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. She's quite aggressive with me about showing me.

1:53:15I mean, it's just a question about your ticket. No, I'm not aggressive at all. I'm just telling you like that's what you have to do. Isn't it? Isn't that normal? So I don't need to get angry. I'm not getting angry at all. So I want you to notice like you gave me a little shove with your shoulder about it. Yeah, I noticed it first time. A little disgust. And I'm literally just asking you about the ticket. Yeah. Yeah. And you're getting quite, you're pushing me away from that. Yeah. And I'm trying to overcompensate from some part of my body without even realizing it. And yet the Uber part of it, it was so much lighter because the reality is after this, you're probably going to get in an Uber somewhere.

1:53:58So that for you was like, oh, this is easy. I'm just going to get in an Uber. The moment I got into this fantasy of the flight to LA, you become pushy and aggressive, which isn't how you are the majority of the time. So that's what I want people to notice about a deviation there from baseline. So you're telling me that if you want to find out if the person's lying or no, just try to be more specific and specific and specific and you'll find out in third or fourth question? Yeah. Keep going back on stuff, be more specific, Ask them about journeys to stuff, detail around it, backstory to it, what they think is going to happen.

1:54:49I get them to think around the story, in the story. But I also think this will only work for people like me. I'm a terrible liar. There are people who are seasoned. They can get around. Few will get around. What do you think? What is one emotion which is impossible to hide for even the seasoned liars and poker faces? Well, we know that there are six or seven emotions that flash on the face. No matter how trained you are. No matter how trained you are. What are these emotions? Well, I mean, anger, surprise, fear, disgust, pleasure. Yeah, I mean, there's a whole bunch of them that will instantly show, but only for a short period of time.

1:55:39Even world leaders feel that? Yeah. Aren't they trained to just be, just to show poker face all the time? Well, they could countermeasure it. Yeah, they could countermeasure it until they can't. So all of us have a certain level where we're going to show stress. All of us will come up against something. Yeah. They will also have a limit point. They will have a limit point. Yeah, they will have a limit point. And we do see that limit point with people. There is stuff that they can't control. Other organizations will put them into situations where they have less control. You know, Trump shows up in China.

1:56:17He'll have less control. Oh, yes. We all saw that. It was not him. Right. It was really not him. Right. The whole... He was asking questions like a baby, like a kid now. Right. How does this work? And that's not him. He's the one who dominates. Well, I mean, you've been into, my guess is you've been to places where you don't understand the culture so much. Oh, yeah. So many times. Yeah. I mean, so for example, like when I go to India, like there's a lot that I understand. And so much is like, this is, I don't know what's going on. Japan I like I understand nothing that's going on I don't fit in I'm too big it's like I don't I don't speak any Japanese I don't speak any you know Punjab or Hindi or anything but but enough people speak English to me you know you go to China I mean you've seen pictures but I mean it's going to be a whole different culture that everything you know culture means that things happen at different speeds.

1:57:22Things happen in different ways. You are alien. Yeah. And so, you know, if you want to unbalance a world leader, don't accommodate their culture and see how lost they are. So you go, you know, well, he's performing a bit like a baby. Yeah. He's infant now. He's infant now because nothing goes on in the way that it normally goes on. Nothing goes on in the way that it normally goes on. And so it's a great opportunity, those visits to other countries, to destabilize world leaders. And so they're very reliant on their handlers being able to put them in the right place, tell them what's going to happen.

1:58:10But often they don't know. So they're reliant on the people who've been sequestered to them, who we don't know whether they're going to tell them to do the right thing or the wrong thing or unbalance them even more. It can be a painful dance for these world leaders when they show up on that world stage. Have you seen Barack Obama being uncomfortable? I've not. He's been to so many different countries and I've never seen him like... Someone who doesn't know what's going on. He's not uncertain. He's very decisive. At least looks like it. Maybe he's really good at it. Or maybe he's been able to train himself to fake that personality so that nobody can point out what's going on.

1:58:57And that both to me is an incredible quality. Well, I think he can be good at it. He can know what to do in order to come across as good at it when he's not so good at it. Also, he can be afforded by the other countries to be allowed to be seen as good at it. He may have been less aggressive or appeared less aggressive to others and therefore afforded more diplomatic kindness. Yeah, that can be a strategy, right? Totally can be a strategy. Yeah. Yeah. It can totally be a strategy to go, okay, treat the person really kindly. We'll get more out of them. So how is he certain? And balance them, we'll get more out of them.

1:59:46So how is he certain and the other person is not? They're sitting at the same chair. They both are holding the same power. So it's usually about speed for a start. Did you notice how Obama would often talk almost a word a second? This kind of speed. Every word important. And speaking at that speed means you can think, think earlier. Think in sound bites, short things, sound impressive, say very little, but sound impressive. Whereas, you know, if you talk fast, you talk speedily, I mean, you're repetitive, sure. You're repetitive. You talk about big things. Repeat those big things. Make them larger.

2:00:48Repeat them again. It's two different styles. Two different styles. And the style isn't for everybody. So some people, if I do that Obama-like slowness, some people go, ah, it's terrible. You probably didn't vote for the guy, did you? You're going to buy us. okay and you basically you know in the u.s for example you're going to find roughly 50 percent of people like and 50 percent don't like yeah most people didn't vote yeah because most people can't trust that they're like oh he's trying to make up and trying to be an elite which we are not and the other person's more relatable oh he talks like me right and he's like just like one of us and that's usually right any one politician is not going to be for everybody because politics is tribal.

2:01:35And therefore, you know, look, let's just take in the British democratic system and the Canadian democratic system, most people aren't voting. Okay. So most of the country is not going out anyway. Okay. So most of the people didn't choose. Yeah. They have the, you know, over a certain age, they have the choice. They don't take the choice. Okay, fine. It's your choice. take it or don't take it. And then of those that actually vote, you don't need the majority of people to vote for the person or the party that's going to elect, going to then have the leader. In fact, it's quite a small percentage, you know, just over like 33%.

2:02:17So you look at a country and basically you're going to go, most people won't like the person in charge. That's just the way it is you don't need the popular vote to win at all to in fact you don't need most of the country to win so you've always got to go okay i'm prime minister most people don't like me

2:02:45so however i speak whatever i do most people aren't going to like me the people who do like me they probably voted for me so they're biased towards me and what am i trying to do say at an election what i'm trying to do is move a few people who aren't decided over to me or a few people who've never voted and might this might be the their first time i want them me to be their first choice on this because if i'm their first choice they'll probably keep on doing that for the rest of their life, pretty much. It's like a consumer. If I can get the buyer, if I can get the customer right now, that's a customer for life.

2:03:31True. Who do you think is a great world leader in terms of just body language? Someone who's nailed it. The way they speak, the way they walk, the way they talk, the way they would appear in front of you. The words come out in them out. So here's what I'm going to say. And I wouldn't say at all. I agree with any or certainly few of what he's done. Okay. I think Donald Trump is an incredible communicator. And anybody who doesn't recognize that or understand that, that's why he wins. And that's why, the reason you don't recognize that is why you lose, essentially. He makes you feel that he's one of yours, relatable, even though he's not.

2:04:18But he has this ability to make you think that he relates with you and he's here for a larger thing and he's going to take you there. I can certainly see why he is relatable. I can certainly see that he's consistent about what he does to be relatable to the people who he needs to be relatable to in order to win. And if you can't recognize that, you'll lose against him. If you think the guy's a clown, you've missed how the clown wins. The show business there, the circus is incredible. Like we have to recognize about donald trump. He did multiple seasons of a show called the apprentice If you go back and watch the apprentice, you'll see somebody who's showing up show after show after show and doing the part Brilliantly playing the part.

2:05:15Now. There's a lot wrong with him There's a lot wrong with him. Okay in in other elements go and watch that show And it's brilliant It's brilliant. He's a brilliant entertainer now go could that brilliant entertainer win an election well based on how good he is at doing that job i reckon he could win that job number one just on being recognizable like he was the you know the first the first um uh primaries that he won first time around he was the most recognizable person there like they had you know 20 odd people up there there was only one that you looked at it's like that guy who i already recognize yeah who's great on the apprentice he looks different he looks different yeah he's a he's he's an extreme he's a caricature so you can notice him at a different at a distance yeah he's the comes the same every time consistency consistency consistency same suit same tie same hair same color skin same gestures, same thing said again and again and again.

2:06:31You know what he's gonna do. He's gonna say it's the biggest, it's the greatest. You know what he's gonna say before he says it. So you're thinking it in your head already. You're doing the work for him. That's brilliant. That's brilliant. Of course he wins. Of course he wins. Now, knowing that, if you know that then, now you might have a chance of putting up something against him. Yeah. Or finding out what the weakness might be in order to win. You know, because look, often it's not who you are that wins you at the election. It's who you're up against. you know and at the moment you know he can win because of what he won because of going okay well you're really bad yeah but i'm not him or i'm not her it's just what about that what about that then oh yeah okay well maybe you're better than that you're not great but you're better than that so it's not who you are it's who you're up against who has the great handshake amongst all of that?

2:07:49Donald Trump has an extraordinary handshake. Yeah, like why he disarms everybody. What's the strategy? Tell me what do you read as a body language coach? What do you see of this? Sure, the strategy is to pull you off balance. That's it. The strategy is to pull you off balance. You know he's going to do it. Like, don't be surprised. Why did he do that? Because what he always does, why does he do it? To pull the other person off balance. Yeah, is it is it a great handshake in terms of it's a really nice one to have? Oh Is it a great handshake? Yeah, because you know it's gonna happen and you know what it's trying to do And sometimes it achieves it but what is he trying to actually portray?

2:08:30He's trying to portray that he is the biggest and strongest and they're the they're weak He's the winner and they're the loser It's so simple. It's nothing more than that yeah and he's going to show you that by pulling them off balance and if you go and have a handshake with him and you like come back to your people and go well he pulled me off balance you like of course he did did you not know that that was going to happen what like where have you been yeah and if you know that's going to happen you can counter measure it yeah you can come in at speed with a straight arm and there's nothing he can do now now he has to brace now he's got a problem yeah now he's got a pattern interrupt now he has to adjust yeah you're now on a different land you've given him a different land to fight on and he doesn't have he has no technique for that i'm sure he has not to my knowledge like you straight up and go there yep whenever that happens yeah whenever that happens he can't do it and then he doesn't even try and do it again hmm yeah or you just go relate exactly that's a different that's taking a different land that's going no we're going to be on this land okay now he's got a pattern interrupt now he wouldn't know what to do yeah now he's gonna ask for input yeah when somebody he doesn't like losers and he wants to make other people losers so he's a winner yeah because the more people are losers around him he doesn't have to be anything to be a winner.

2:10:08Yeah. Okay. So he just demote other people. He ascends by proxy of, by, by comparison of, of, of that, but he doesn't really like conflict. So if there is conflict, he's going to back down from that. So if you come in with a conflict that he can't handle, he'll step down. But that's also bad for him, bad for you, if you want to be in business with him of any kind. Could be. Yeah. Because then he's automatically now, instead of focusing on the thing or focusing on the business, he's figuring out a way to put you down because that's not been achieved. So his brain is on an incomplete loop. I'm just going with psychology.

2:10:52Could be, or maybe he now respects you. Yeah, it could go either way. Could go either way. Could go either way. So what's your strategy? What's your prediction? What do you want to play? If that doesn't work, what's your next move? If that doesn't work, what's your next move? It's a game all the way. It's a dance. It's a piece of choreography. How good is your choreographer? What are the options that you've explored? How good are you at executing those options? How well are you rehearsed? How well are you rehearsed? And when everything goes wrong, what's your vocabulary to start making it up as you go along and seeing what happens?

2:11:33Wow. Yeah. One handshake and you have to give, but this is what you teach to your leaders as well? Yeah. So I'll be teaching them the strategies around this. We'll be going, look, here's what's most likely to, here's the effect that we want. Yeah. Here's what's most likely going to happen in the territory. Yeah, here's the behaviors. Here's our best bet on this. If it doesn't go that way, then there's this, there's options, options, options, options. And now let's get you rehearsed in a vocabulary so that on the spot, yeah, you're going to start making good decisions along the way. But we have to have in our mind, what are we trying to achieve?

2:12:13What's the brand? What's the promise? What's the promise of performance? And who's our audience? It's not the whole of the world. Yeah. Some people are more important than others. Okay. In a general human sense. No, sure. Everybody's really important. But when you communicate, some people are way more important than others. You've got to choose your target. Know your budget. Yeah. Know your resource and then choose your strategy for that target based on the resource. You make a choice. You make it bigger. You keep it tidy. Then you might hit the target really hard again and again and again and again and again.

2:12:55Then everybody gets it. Yeah. But if you start scattering out your resource to everybody, nobody gets it. You're unbalanced. Nobody sees. True. True. give me a real-time case study or a problem that you have solved for some precedent. I don't want to know the name of the precedent because I'm sure this is information which can't be leaked, but give me some problem or the solution you've done. I want to understand that. That very one of Donald Trump. Oh, so you were working with the president. That very one of - Give me, explain me and then - That very one of knowing that a world leader has to come and shake hands.

2:13:36Okay. Yeah. With Donald Trump. Yeah. We know what's going to happen. Yeah. It's going to pull them off balance. That's what's going to happen. Okay. So we know where the first handshake is going to be. Yeah. We know exactly the environment or we're predicting it and we're pretty sure that's going to be it. But what is this world leader? What is he trying to achieve here? Just go meet or is he there for some deal or is he from a powerful country? It's a first meeting. Okay. It's a first meeting ever. It's a first meeting. So we don't know what. It's just maintaining relationship. It's a first meeting.

2:14:13It's a G7 relationship. So it's an important relationship. And the country is also powerful because it's G7. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, and, you know, as you know, with Trump, he will put pressure on all those important relationships. He'll destabilize them. Yeah. because he wants his audience to feel that the alignment of all those other countries is utterly dependent on the US. And that could be true, or that could be false, or something in between. But the message that he's trying to get is, it's utterly reliant on us, the US, and me as the icon of the US. And then how do you train then? Well, you show video.

2:15:05You go, so here's what happens. Then you go, here's the physics of what's happening here. So we're moving objects. And here's the fundamental physics and biomechanics of what's going on there. And so he's reliant on a still, on a stationary object to be able to pull it, to be able to seem to be pulling it off balance. Okay. So he needs you stationary, first of all, in order to be able to yank you off balance. Yeah. And then he's reliant on you then pulling back for him to do it again. Yeah. Yeah. And so he's reliant on that to and fro. So what we're going to do is not give him that. So as you come out of the vehicle, we know what side you're going to get out because we can choose the side.

2:15:58So we know what side you're going to come out. You're going to come round and give yourself a good long run up to this. Yeah. And you're going to come at the fastest speed you can to still be walking, but it'll be faster than expected. OK. Yeah. And you're going to lock your arm out. Yeah. And come in fast. Yeah. And that won't be expected. like you just yeah you you you you rehearse the action you rehearse the action for this person okay and they come in at at good velocity let's say because we're we're doing speed over time i'm building up that speed over time so so the the the subject on the other end uh is is perceiving acceleration yeah and they don't normally perceive acceleration they should be perceiving a slowing down yeah as well and a tentativeness and also they should be perceiving some some angles in the arm they're perceiving none of that yeah and this is coming in really fast yeah and so now they have to brace for this they have to brace and now you're in control because if they don't brace And if you don't control yourself, everybody's falling over.

2:17:27And their instinct knows that at that point. So their pattern's been completely interrupted. And what if it doesn't go like that? Well, I mean, you know, potentially you've got everybody falling around on the floor. And then you can go, the guy just collapsed. The guy couldn't handle it. I mean, the guy's frail. The guy could collapse. The guy's a mess. Did it happen this way, the way you planned? Yeah. And the world leader was able to disarm the Trump handshake? Yeah, for sure. Nice. Yeah. And how many times did that person rehearse? Well, you don't need to do it more than three. Okay. It's very simple.

2:18:11It's very simple. You just need that they will execute that. You've got to know that they're going to execute that. And that's trust Like okay They've got it They're smart They're smart They usually Physically they're usually Pretty good Yeah of course No wonder they're there Yeah physically They're usually Pretty in control Intellectually They're usually Pretty in control They listen They can execute They can do it Yeah But let's say You're meeting someone For the first time Yeah Like you're You're at a negotiating table Yeah And you're negotiating Yeah Can you then tell something? Because then there's no base behavior for you to actually go back to.

2:18:54And what I'm trying to understand is in negotiation, the most important thing for me to know is have you given up or no? Oh, okay. Like internally, can I predict that you've given up already and I can command the price that I want? Right. Can we do that? You would need to know what it looks like when they're optimistic. Yeah. Explain. Okay. So let's say when somebody's given up, they're pessimistic. They don't think the future is going to go how they'd like it to go. Okay. And when they're optimistic, they haven't given up. There's entropy. They're like, let's go forward. Yeah. Okay. So what I'd want to do, if that's my strategy, I need to get them to give up and I need to know when they've given up.

2:19:44Okay. then I first of all need to know what it looks like when they're optimistic. So how do I put them in that? I need to make that happen. Yeah. So in my negotiation, I'd need to create a moment where I know I'm going to give them something which is going to get them really optimistic. Because I need to know what that looks like. Yeah. So you might go, oh, yeah, but I don't want to give them anything. well then you're not going to see them optimistic are you yeah but you can't have the cake and eat it as well like you're gonna have to if you want to do this it's going to be more complicated than you just winning and winning and winning and winning and winning true yeah you're gonna have to sacrifice something in order to find out something to win something bigger that's the nature of a sacrifice yeah and if you're not prepared to sacrifice you're probably not a negotiator.

2:20:43Probably. I mean, there may be some negotiators out there that would argue me that one. And I'd love to have that argument. But my guess is if you're not prepared to sacrifice, you are not a negotiator. So the moment you show some sacrifice, you can see the optimism on other person's face. I would think so. And when you see optimism on other person's face, then you do what? so i'm going to clock that to go okay that's them optimistic i want to see how long do they keep that so here's my prediction around this though it can be different for different people but i'm going to do a generalization for most human beings on the planet okay okay you're in a fight with gravity right now i'm in a fight with gravity yeah okay all human beings on the planet are there's no getting away with that's one of the things that links us together I don't care that you came from India and I came from the UK.

2:21:38Okay. We both fought the same gravity. Okay. And that shows up in our optimism, our pessimism. So when we're optimistic, that fight against gravity becomes so much easier. And when we're pessimistic, we haven't got that energy for the fight against gravity. Okay. And so I'm going to notice about whoever I'm negotiating with. what is that fight against gravity? And when I give them something in order to create what I hope will create optimism in them, I see what happens in their fight against gravity. Yeah. Yeah. I see. Do they get what I would call more buoyant? Yeah. And then I'm going to notice, okay, so how do they keep that buoyancy?

2:22:25Yeah. If I take something, what happens to the buoyancy? Yeah. What limit can I take it to? So I notice, for example, here's one thing that I noticed in interviews with people, especially on new shows with politicians there. Yeah, I want to know, are they wearing some kind of jewellery? Yeah, a watch will be a great one because as they become pessimistic about what they're saying or doing, yeah, they'll collapse and you'll hear that. Yeah, you'll often hear, if they haven't got jewellery, you'll hear it on the table. Yeah, and so they'll be saying something, the end of it, that happens. Ah, good.

2:23:02They weren't very optimistic about what they said. They didn't like that. That didn't work out well for them. They're not happy about that. So I'm going to be looking now for the collapse of things. And I'm going to be going, how far could they collapse? Yeah. So they may stay buoyant in their face. They may be showing, trying to show pleasure or deadpan. But what's their fight against gravity? Yeah. And so anyway, that's what I'd look for. But, you know, it could be different for different people. We're individuals and human beings at the same time. Tell me, I'm going to ask you this. Yeah. Because a lot of young people are going to be interested in it.

2:23:42How do you go up to a girl and talk? Just work with the truth of the matter. Okay. So the truth of the matter, if I was staying in New York tonight and not going home, is like, okay, where are we going to eat? Okay. Where am I going to eat? I quite like going to, you know, nice restaurants. Okay. You know, I'm quite, it doesn't have just good food. Yeah. So, so I might say, so look, I'm, I'm Mark. I'm, uh, staying in New York, uh, tonight and I'm really interested in good food. I don't know. I mean, you know, great place to dine. It doesn't matter how much it is or cheap or I don't care, but like really good quality experiences.

2:24:24I don't know about, about you. So I just start with that. Because they're either going to go, yeah. But you're already at the restaurant, right? Like how do you act? Oh, I might be at a bar. I might be on the, I might be at the hotel. I might be, I don't know. I might be, I don't know. I don't know where I am. But the premise there was how do I engage someone else? Okay. Well, I can engage people with like some fantasy or I can engage them with the fact of the matter, which is here's who I am. Here's what I'm into. What about you? So they can go, no, don't care less. Like, oh, okay. Interesting.

2:25:07Like what, so what are you up to? Okay. So, so I don't mind whether they join in or don't join in, but I know this from, for a fact, they've just said, well, they're not interested in that. Okay. So there's no joining of values around that. Okay. Well, I don't know. So that could be a complete deal breaker or, you know, or maybe I want to investigate further because, you know, sometimes people who are, have some opposites are quite good for each other. So all I did was open with the fact of the matter. This is who I am. This is what's happening. This is what I'd like to happen. Like, what do you think what what about you yeah fact of the matter yeah nice trick yeah so i mean let's um uh let me go to a bar on my own okay from bar on my own i see somebody i go okay i'm gonna strike up a conversation so i go over i go so i'm mark um i'm here on my own how about you It's like, it's just a fact.

2:26:23They're either going to say, actually I'm here with him over there. They're like, okay, who's he? He's like, who's this guy then? Okay, right, okay. Well, okay, I'm here on my own, do you know? It's like, something will happen. I like this technique, like this fact of the matter. Be so honest and truthful that other person doesn't see you as harm or danger at all. Right. And then they're going to probably either say no, yes, or actually lead you to something else. Yeah. Look, in all of... Hey, maybe I'm with this person, but you know, my friend... Oh, it's your friend. What's your friend's name?

2:27:02Oh, okay. Well, thanks. I'll go and talk to your friend. Like, what's she into? What's she... Yeah, like if somebody talks to me like that, I'm going to introduce to all my friends. Oh, yeah, no, she's into sushi. Okay, okay, thanks for that. Like, what places has she eaten here? Oh, she's eaten there, there, there. Okay, okay. So, listen, I was talking to your friend over there. Like, she says you're into sushi. I need to eat, or I'm going to eat at some point this evening. Now, I hear you've been to X, Y, and Z. Where haven't you been that you'd like to go to? Nice. Okay? it's like i'm getting that knows maybe maybe she'll go well no i'd go back to this place here would you okay why why what what was so good about that place so now i'm extracting values i'm going like what do you like best yeah what do you like best about this now look you you've you all your audience at some point will have come across all kinds of techniques around this of like oh you you know, you should put somebody down around this.

2:28:09And yeah, it's like, I don't know, that all sounds pretty tricky. That all sounds, I've heard some of these people talking, it's like, oh, you've got to use this technique here. Like, oh man, I'm going to need a manual for that. That seems, that's a study program. Oh, oh, you're actually literally selling a study program. Oh, I see why it's so complicated because that's how you make money. You've made it so complicated. I have to keep coming back and learning this maneuver and this maneuver and this maneuver and this mover instead of just going up to people and going, here's the situation. Can you help with that?

2:28:43Just the human stuff of like, I'm in this predicament. Have you got any help for me? That's how social works. Here's who I am. This is where I am. So what I'm trying to achieve, would you want to help? Because then they can go, no, I would never help you in my life. Great. It's good to know. no it's a good like i'm glad we got that over with or they might go yeah let me help you in this little way oh thank you very much nice nice i love it okay here are my last three questions i ask every guest of mine it can be small short answers good feel free yeah it's you know the whole show the whole podcast is about giving people power over their own lives right a lot of people feel powerless.

2:29:30And that's why a lot of my questions are around that as well, that how can you feel the most powerful version of yourself? But for me, it's important to know as a guest, what was that moment where you have felt the most powerless? Oh, I'm dyslexic. So I have felt most powerless trying to write down what I'm thinking. which I think is really good like I've ah this will be brilliant yeah and I write it down and I give it to somebody and they go that I can't it's just nonsense it's just nonsense I oh so disappointing and it's like so disappointing because what was in there I was so happy about it.

2:30:25I was so proud about it. I know it was something new and different. It was exciting me and I was so excited for you to get it. And there it is. And it's just garbage. Yeah, that for me is, that is so powerless. And what situation or what point in life where you felt anxious the most? anxious the most oh i mean like i feel it like like like much of the work that i do there's complexity in there there's a lot of not knowing you know i meet a lot of new people and they want to achieve something really fast you know in them not feeling anxious or them feeling confident or them portraying that and and it's human beings with human beings and there's so much ambiguity and not knowing that usually every time i go into that the anxiety is i'm just managing the anxiety around that now what's your personal framework to become powerful or become less anxious in that moment when next time it happens one of the important people to me in my life is a guy called Jim Henson.

2:31:45Yeah. And Muppet Show is a great show and all the shows that he did. It's incredible, incredible stuff. But just the nature of him being able to take a sock on his hand and turn it into a lovable character, you know? And there's one thing that he said to Kermit. Yeah. I don't know when he said it to Kermit, but he says he said it to Kermit. And it came out at his funeral as well. He said to Kermit, take what you've got and fly with it. yeah like you've got something i don't know what it is and it's it's little yeah but only you have it like take what you've got you've got that like and go with that just go with that give it everything yeah take what you've got and fly with it it worked for kermit interesting take what you got and fly with it and the last question is you've dedicated your life to become an expert into one thing what's the cost you've paid personally to become an expert of communications yeah i would say the costs are many uh the costs are it's difficult because you know the upside is is is a lot but the costs at the start the the in my view the the dedication to one idea like the just following through on that the ignoring everything else.

2:33:27And so essentially, I would say the failure that you have, not necessarily within the thing that you've, because people say, oh, you know, you learn by your failures. And it's like, no, the thing that I was following, I'm not failing at. I'm taking that and I'm flying with it because I'm good at it and I'm going to get excellent at that. you know so you're you're avoiding the failure through that but then everything else that you're trying to do there's a lot of failure there and so you kind of just have to go who cares and who cares and that's wrong like that's a that's not a good way of i think of of seeing it i kind of wish i had i see i there's other people that i work with um i work with some extraordinary people extraordinary and and and i look at their capacity and go how are you doing so much like really excellently like brilliance at lots of different levels and i'm like yeah i'm like world class but in this tiny little niche they're really like one of those things of like get really good at something that nobody's really bothered about so the competition is super low it's like But then there's other people who are competing at these other levels and they're magnificent.

2:34:51And I just go, like, how is your brain doing that? Like doing so much excellently. And it's like their capacity. I don't have that capacity. I don't think I had it in the first place. I don't think, I think I've maybe ignored the capacity I could have for that niche and going down one line. And I'm not upset or sorry about that because it is what it is. But that is a sacrifice, but it's okay. I mean, don't get upset about it. so it is a sacrifice but it'll be all right the cost is not being able to do many things not being able to do many things really really really well and i see other people who seem to me to be able to do many things like really well like really well all right thank you so much thank you it was pleasure having you it was absolutely amazing to learn so many good things and you just gave names and frameworks to everything and i love it thank you so much thank you so much raj it's been a brilliant interview i appreciate it thank you how are you nice to meet you raj nice to meet you raj please come and step it in yeah yeah got a great uh great podcast by the way you got a great team of people thank you incredible team of of people i do a lot of these podcasts and and your team is you know on the mark every time yeah i'm so i'm so happy to hear this yeah yeah i mean that's um you know that's difficult to do to have a team that can show up you know professional every time true you know what's what's even more difficult which i feel i have no clue how they do it that's a good that's a good thing yeah you can never do it yourself yes like half of the time when when a guest comes and tells me like this is what your team did and i'm like wow how did they do that yeah like i have no clue yeah yeah it's so good i'm so happy that's what you want around you is people who can do stuff that you can't do true true my team they'll have stuff in their head and I'm just like how are you, how do you have all of that stuff in your head?

2:37:14I forget, you know, stuff goes in and out. True, true, true. I'm same like you. Thank you so much for watching this episode till the end. We would love to know what you liked or disliked about this episode and which guest you would like to see again on this show or which are the new guests that you want to see. Let us know in the comments. Your feedback helps us improve and make every episode a little better. I'll see you the next time. Until then, keep figuring out.