India-US Relations, China Competition & India’s Superpower Strategy | Dr. Samir Saran | FO526 Raj Shamani

30:54So there's a big difference. So that is one. The story is apparent that because of our history, And because of our economic and trading role, engagement with India has a certain coherence, has a certain resonance in various quarters, right? The second I think that we must understand is that you do not see political expansionism as part of India's tool ever. People trust us because we've never colonized anyone. We have never waged war to promote ideology or ideas or to promote economic benefits or zero-sum mercantilist endeavors. We haven't done that. Our 5 ,000 year history would probably have, barring a few incidents, would never see India in that role.

31:36Very few geographies who have survived for so long with such a large cohort of humanity can claim that. And this is the second trust factor that we are not politically expansive. We are economically vibrant. We are politically non-expansive. And I think that's a very important point. Now having done this, if you come to our last 80 years, independence. You're right. We have stood by folks who have been our friends including the most recent incident. We have stood by UAE. We have stood by Israel. And by the way, we have taken a very balanced approach even on Iran. We have not signed on to the American dotted line.

32:19So it's a very loaded question that you've asked me but my answer would be on balance we are one of the few countries the world can trust and therefore in a dialogue like Raisina, we have the Israel foreign minister speak at night and next morning we have the foreign minister from Iran come and give their point of view. So we can have Taiwan and China, Iran and Israel and of course Russia and Ukraine in the same room. We can have Blinken come on stage at 10 a.m. and Lavrov come on that same stage at 11 a.m. and you know we can have that ability to convene the world and have conversations with folks because we don't play games.

32:55right they are building our future what do you think is the biggest problem at this point my view on india becoming a superpower is has little to do with america or china and most to do with itself i think you know when we talk about a free trade agreement for example with new zealand or with with middle east or eu or say even with a comprehensive partnership with America that's underway. My question, fundamental question is, does India have a free date agreement with itself? We are 34 odd countries. Right? Have we signed an agreement with ourselves? Are we a common economic zone? Are we a common market?

33:39Right? The GST has taken us a very long distance in becoming one. Infrastructure that we are building at, you know, 30 kilometers a day of highways and roads and ports and terminals is moving us there. but the first big free trade agreement India needs to sign is with itself you know when India when every small enterprise in India can benefit from 1.4 billion Indians only then will that free trade agreement be achieved why is it not? it is simple the fact is the invisibilization of India's MSMEs could be the textile sector could be the small auto parts sectors could be engineering sectors the fact is that we are only now in the last post-digital India, say 2016, post-2016, it's only now that we are beginning to visibilize the largest part of India that was in the subterranean imagination of Indians.

34:37We were more aware of medium enterprises in Europe than we were aware of the medium enterprises in India. We have basically, we have basically made the country's ojala. kiya hai desh ko. 2016, the first time we have started turning on the lights in the country. And now we are beginning to see what the country really offers. So I think we are, we have completed the first decade of discovering India. I think that's what my message is. That it's only 10 years that we can make an Indian by giving them an idea and a presence in our thinking. And we have been able to start, you know, visibilizing a small the SMSE farmers and various other actors in India.

35:20So India's journey is complex. So I think India's super power, and you know, super power could be in multiple ways and we'll discuss that. But India's journey to 2047 is a journey to India doing the free trade agreement with itself, investing in itself, educating itself, caring for itself, ensuring itself and unleashing itself that is India's journey to Vixit Bharat and when it unleashes itself its sheer size makes it a superpower any time any time in even in our most modest avatars of the 50s or 60s when India has unleashed itself it has changed the way the world has responded to a particular issue for example India at a time when it depended on all sorts of support from all sorts of actors in the 1940s, 50s, 60s, when we were a real poor country.

36:23And when the USSR and USA were shaping the world into their orbits, it was India and a few of its friends who stood up and created the third way, the non-aligned movement, the Bandung conference, you know, the G77. And we were able to ensure that neither of the two parties could run away with the world. We created an additionality. Our sheer size allows us to do that. India should not worry about being a superpower. If that we are. 17 % of humanity is not only superpower, we are superstars also. But that is not the point. What kind of superpower are we is what we need to work on. Are we a superpower with only veto capabilities?

37:03Which means if we don't do something, climate change will happen. If we don't do something, something other something other, some other wrong thing So do we want to be a negative veto superpower Or do we want to be a Superpower that can create positive change Can we build something Are we an oppositional superpower Without our consent You can do nothing Or are we a propositional superpower We want to build a colony in Mars We want to build outer space program We want to build a tech program We want to build a quantum program Are we a propositional superpower Or are we an oppositional superpower I think that's the question we need to answer We can become the head of the global trade union today No one can win.

37:41No one can shout louder than us, right? If we decide that our superpower is being in the global opposition, let's be the global opposition. Do you understand what I'm saying? I get it. I get it. But in order to become a prepositional superpower where we are actually building something, one very important factor is input. Input either in the form of raw material or in the form of money, which is external dollars. For both of them, we're dependent on two different countries, at least for time being. So for example, until unless we get external capital, external, for example, funds or dollars in the country, which is, let's say, America's giving it to the world because they are the economic hub of the world.

38:23Until we have a great relationship with them, our speed of growth will be much slower if we decide to do just everything by ourselves. So we need to have a great relationship with them in order to do that. so you know my take on this is this you're not wrong so wait I'm not disagreeing with you but I think that is half the story here is my take if you look at the numbers this year I was reading a report that we could be hitting close to 90 or 95 billion dollars of FDI I'm sure that on an average over the last 10 years, we would have probably received remittances of$150 billion, which is more than the FDI.

39:15If you add up the total stock of investments from USA and Europe into India versus the total build-out in India over the last 70 years, international investments have been minimal. India has invested in itself. If you look at sectors specifically, let's look at climate. We talk about green sectors, We talk about green energy, solar energy, one of the big success stories in the last 10 years. 85 % of climate finance has nevertheless left its home. International climate finance does not come to distant geographies. India's climate revolution, the green revolution is happening on India's own accords.

39:48Right? Our surpluses, our reserves, our investable capital is investing in India's green future. Of course, it is catalyzed, sustained, supported by international investments. So international investments are the cherry on the cake. The cake is domestic. So I'm not saying we should not be looking at cream and cheese. We should. We should seek it. Like you said, it will give you a bump up of a few basis points in your growth story. So if you're growing normally at 6.5 % to 7 % through domestic endeavors, you could get a half a percent bump up if international people participate. But here is the story.

40:22The minute you make India an investable story, Indians start investing in their own story, international funds will flow. They are looking for additionality. They are looking for optionality. In 2008, there was one country that was$4 trillion and had$2 ,600 per capita income. In the next 10 years, that country was to become the preferred trading partner for over 100 countries. It was in the middle of that journey of 10 years, it bailed out Greece and some European countries as well. And of course, acquired their ports and infrastructure in those countries as well. It built the BRI, right? That country from$4 trillion and$2 ,600 per capita in the next 10 years was to become a global superpower just on sheer economic terms.

41:06This is India's record. We are at$4 trillion and$2 ,600 per capita income. And if we play the game right, we are adding South Africa to our GDP every year today. When people say is Vietnam an opportunity, India should say we add a Vietnam to our GDP every year, come in and look for that Vietnam here. That is our story. But for that to be sellable, India must invest in itself. I think our big challenge is to get our private sector to invest in the India story. Most of the big investments that are happening are on infrastructure through public funds. We need to get private funds, private capital coming in.

41:42We need the animal spirit of 100 Ambani's and Adani's investing into the country. We don't celebrate these investors. we like to always cast shadows on their contribution. So we have to actually rethink what we want to do with ourselves. I'm quite intrigued that you believe that if India starts investing in itself around the world, people will start investing in itself. So we should not be worried about international relations much. Should we? No, no, no. Don't get me wrong. I think it is absolutely an imperative for us to engage with the important geographies, but to engage with the not so important geographies very intimately now.

42:33And I'll explain to you. Let me give you one example. Who would have thought that sitting today, nearly a third of Indian homes would have cooking oil supplied from Argentina? Right? Shocking, but it's true. now imagine that same country who is supplying our cooking oil to us on the one end of the spectrum is also going to be a country that is going to be catering to our lithium needs for our EV transformations because Kabul one of the Indian public sector undertakings has exploration licenses for lithium mines in Argentina I think one of the MOUs has already signed a couple of others are being signed and India is going to be acquiring significant acreage overseas to bring lithium or lithium derived products back home So I think it's a, now certainly, who would have thought that Argentina should be a priority country for India's foreign policy?

43:26Now, guess what? From your food to your energy, that country is going to be defining it. And you cannot ignore these countries. You can't ignore Latin America because, you know, when 17 % of humanity is seeking all sorts of inputs from food to energy to resources to cultural inputs and products, you have to engage with all the world. It's not just the US or the, I mean, again, let's go back to the China story. Preferred trading partner for a hundred plus countries in the first decade of its transformation. China was not focusing just on the US. Its BRI was a project to link the Indo, see, I always joke and tell people, Indo-Pacific, the US talks about the Indo-Pacific.

44:09China has actually built it. China was the architect of the Indo-Pacific. It is the single biggest beneficiary of the Indo-Pacific. It is the most important actor in the Indo-Pacific. The rest only talk about it. Chinese invest in it. They have actually built ports. They have built interests. They have built industry. They have built economic, you know, relationships, equities in much of these attractions. Not only the Indo-Pacific, they've also, you know, Russia used to talk about Eurasia. Right? Chinese have actually made it happen. They've, you know, there are trains that stop in Vienna from China.

44:42You know, in the previous century If you had a thousand Chinese Getting off a train station in Vienna It would be called an invasion Today it is, you know, integration So in some sense The Chinese have also connected The Eurasian, you know, geographies Like no other person Before Changi's Khan tried to do You know, since Changi's Khan has tried to do So in some sense Look, they are connecting the waters They are connecting the lands And they have understood That the responsibility for globalization of tomorrow is no longer Western. It is Eastern. And China is bearing the burden of that globalization by not only engaging, but also investing.

45:22India has to not only engage and explore, but also invest and commit. And I think that is the India story over the next 10 years. How much can we commit to the world which is far away because that world will shape everything near and close to us. Tell me top three countries which is very underrated and India should invest in their relationships with them from purely strategic economic point of view? Look, I would argue that one of our most important partners in the future, which is quite at the margins in our imagination, is Indonesia, for example. For me, it's shocking. You know, Andaman in Nicobar is closer to Indonesia than to Delhi.

45:59You know, it's true that, you know, it's literally a maritime neighbor. We share the most important passage in global politics, which is the Malacca Street. In some sense, we are sitting on top of it and they are the owners of, they are part owners of that particular street. Now look, that country, so big, rising quickly, large population, we are linked at the hips. Our growth and their growth is going to be in many ways virtuous to each other. They have already become as big, if not bigger than our bilateral trade with UK and Germany, in some sense. And yet in our imaginations as common Indians, we talk about UK and Germany, We talk about France and Italy.

46:40We don't talk about the country that's already so big and such a proximate neighbour. You know, for example, I think we have to think about these kind of geographies. Again, we have forgotten Central Asia. You know, since you mentioned three. So, you know, one is clearly ASEAN and Indonesia stands out. The second is, obviously, I would say Central Asia, which I think is absolutely barren and virgin tract as far as... What specific country in Central Asia? No, look, let's take two of them, right? let's take the two big ones. For example, you know, the smaller ones we have engaged with because they were tactically important for us for Afghanistan and others.

47:15But I'm now talking about from a comprehensive engagement. So, you know, clearly Astana and, you know, Almaty Astana in Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan, huge. Look, Uzbekistan is a resource rich country. You want gold? They have gold. You want rare earth? They have rare earth. You want metals? They have metals. You want all sorts of resources and inputs? They have that. My point is that the lesson from the China and even you know the more recent the older Japanese growth stories have been that you will need to invest in geographies that cater to your strategic imperatives. If India's strategic imperatives will have to be building out the nation, building up the nation, building up our infrastructure, energy, roads, ports, capabilities and electronics etc.

48:04etc., we will require inputs. You were mentioning that in your, you know, we need inputs. One is finance, but we require material inputs. Right? You will need to go to Central Asia. You will need to go to Russia. You will need to have Africa in the Lubuto corridor in your radar. That's a third geography. You know, you will have to be present in some of those geographies if you need to be catering to your gluttonous hunger for resources. Right? We are at that stage. If we are going to be adding a Vietnam or a South Africa to our GDP every year, we will need those kind of material inputs. Money is one part of it.

48:37But if we can secure these value chains, if we can secure these supply chains, investors are looking for optionality, additionality. They want places they can put money into. Today, you have lazy capital in the world, you know, giving you returns of one or two percent. They want geographies that are exciting, dynamic and going to turn around their investments quickly. And India should be that very exciting place. Why we are not today? I think for two reasons. One of them is that, you know, we have a, and it's very interesting since you asked this, you know, and look, I'm doing some blue sky thinking with you now.

49:19Here is my take. We all, rightly so, you know, focus on India's young youth, young demography and, you know, the large number of young people, aspirational folks who reside in this part. And that's true. That's one side of the coin. The second side of the coin is that we are a 5 ,000-year-old civilization. And, you know, it struck me because recently that I seen a dialogue, someone asked a question or someone said something. I remember the external affairs minister saying that, look, it depends on where you come from. If you've been around for 5 ,000 years, then 70 years is not that significant a slice to reach a conclusion on directions of the world.

50:09Right? And I think that's probably also true of the way we think about our economic and aspirational inertia. And I think that's the word. We have civilizational inertia on the one end of the coin and we have a youth and aspirational demography on the other side of the coin. And India has caught between these two urges. A young India that wants much more And by the way, it's true You walk in the street And I'll tell you what No matter the fact that We may not have been able to give Too many things to too many people And although we have progressed significantly Much to do You still see most Indians With the conviction that Their tomorrow will be better than yesterday And that's not something that you can say Of most countries in the world In India, you will still find That the majority of young people will say My tomorrow will be better than today and that is something that is I think India's India's X factor the fact that most of them believe that tomorrow is theirs to cease and I think that's what what holds them back is sometimes the grandness of our civilizational imprint you know 5000 years and you know we have been there and for the last 1800 years out of the 20 20 centuries we have been either the number one or number two GDP we will get it back You know, it's a matter of time.

51:28And I think that kind of mellows the enthusiasm that the youth display. So I think we have to animate the young and we have to forget our civilizational grandness. On the other hand, you know, for the next 50 years, we have to forget about the last 5000 years and think about the next 50. I think that's if we can just turn our head and look ahead. Don't forget our past. I mean, I'm not saying that, but don't let it weigh you down. I sometimes think that our achievements of the past or the fact that we have persisted as a civilization which is a success, huge success of human endeavor, human resilience.

52:04You know, our survival over the last 5 ,000 years should not become a way to keep us anchored to a different era. One thing is that because our civilizational baggage sometimes we think that we are so many years old. It's not baggage. I say that our... No, sometimes. our strength that is our baggage in this thought I would say that our civilization see you know what does what does our 5000 years or more of existence tell us it tells us that externalities have shaken us but have never been able to unseat us we have we have remained we have persisted we have survived we have sustained irrespective of you know all the externalities both human-induced as well as natural catastrophes.

52:54And we have persisted as human beings. I would also, you know, tell folks when I was studying in the UK that, look, we must have done something right. All your books talk about the invasions in India from the last 2 ,000 years, right? But look, my religion remains, my customs remains, my traditions remains, my food remains, everything remains. How did it survive if we did not win some battles, if we did not win certain arguments, if we did not score certain debates in our favor. We must have done some things right to have been able to sustain ourselves over all this time, irrespective of what your books talk about us.

53:32If you read your books, we have been destroyed 20 times over and yet 1.4 billion of us remain. So, something will happen. A lot of things will happen. So, I think our civilization should not dismiss us. I think it must, it must in fact become the foundation of us looking ahead. Now we don't have to look back. Our forefathers have given us the luxury of not looking back. They are looking after our back. We have the luxury of just looking ahead. We don't have to build a history. We are born with it. Most countries are building their histories. You know, you go to most western geographies, this is a heritage home, 80 years old.

54:12The home you are recording in is 80 years old. You know, my point I'm trying to tell you is that in a different country you would say we are in a heritage basement but we are not. Right? So my point here is that we have been given our legacy empowers us to look ahead because our ancestors have built our past and have safeguarded it. True. And I think that's what we have to be thinking about. You know where you come from and I think that's why folks like you and many other storytellers in India who are producing content today and I say that India must become the content subcontinent. We must become the content creators for the world.

54:52You know, we must animate people's imagination using the stories of our forefathers. And my book, Geo-Technography, was actually in many ways connected to, sorry, I've taken you on a different tangent, but I think the civilization part is important in a digital time when podcasts have replaced under the Banyan tree conversations, right? Because these are important today now. So, you know, that book came from a very simple, you know moment that I had with myself on a flight coming back home from Munich to Delhi and I suddenly was thinking you know when I was growing up my mother had three of us in four years so she was always mothering she had no time to be someone who would be able to spend hours with each one of us right she was always firefighting three kids same age literally look after them you know one was a second then the second then the second then the parents then the dadi and dadah and then one month the house was unwell then one month respite and then it used to come back again right so we were she was the the nurse and the caregiver and the asha worker all rolled into one when we were growing up right now who brought me up my grandparents my dadi my pandit ji who used to be the cook in our kitchen they used to tell me stories they had to remind me They taught me the Mahabharat, they taught me the Gita They taught me the Sikhs They taught them with their Ramlila, they taught them with their Yeah, you know, Chayek Kabir ho, chayek You know, koi humare You know, lakhano ke joh Haas se kabhi sambilan hoye You know, in sab ki joh exposure Thi, to know about Their existence was courtesy These elders in my family, right?

56:35So they told me the stories, but understand What they did, when they were telling me the stories They told me the stories of bravery of our heroes, Prithiraj Chauhan. When I was in Nagpur for three years, my father was in a transferable job. I was told the stories of Shivaji. So, you know, I spent my formative years third, fourth, fifth, second, third, fourth in Nagpur. And Shivaji Maharaj was my hero. So I heard stories of my hero, of bravery. I heard stories of cowardice, of treachery. I heard stories of romance and celebrating, you know, epics of friendships and all sorts of, you know, tales about cuisines and cultures and customs and costumes and these stories may have seemed to be stories but they were actually coding me they were coding the operating system of who I am they were giving me the ability to decide they were programming this LLM they were programming me that this is okay, this is wrong this is right, this is right this should be done, this should not be safe, be careful be adventurous be generous be thoughtful right these were the operating system inputs but all of these inputs were linked to the land I was in yeah Prithira Chauhan Shiva ji I have heard the stories of Aurangzeb and Akbar I have heard the stories of Prithira Chauhan and I have heard the story of Maharana Pratap it was up to me to decide right wrong good bad ugly but they were the inputs on basis of which I was shaping my understanding of life and where I should be in life, right?

58:10Now, I was thinking that if I was born in India today, who would tell me these stories? We will. Exactly. And who is the winner? We are. Reels, TikTok, you know, YouTube shots, right? And if India is not telling the stories on these mediums, then where is my locality? I am now being subjected to as a young person, stories from distant geographies which have nothing to do with the heroes of the land I was born in those who betrayed this land the stories of this land of floods, of monsoons of the springs, of the beautiful flowers and fields, right? So, today the stories that program a human are no longer necessarily restricted to the locality that they were born to they may not even be related to the locality it is not surprising for me that today people in this country have less response to what's happening in Bangladesh and more response to what's happening in Palestine.

59:13I'm not saying that you should not respond to that. Don't get me wrong. But I'm saying that you should also respond to this. But no one is telling you the stories of what happened in that part of the world, how much India sacrificed for its liberation, what happened in the journeys since 1971. If that story is not told enough, repeated multiple times, made relatable to so many people, they will not realize how much investment we have in the future of the geography. We will still find ourselves drawn more to the Palestinian cause rather than to the Bangladeshi future. And I think that is why what you are doing, you know, telling the stories of our past, telling the stories of our future, discussing our present becomes absolutely a strategic imperative.

59:54We are today living between two worlds. I always say this. We live in a pin code, but we are also on an IP address. Those who are watching us are watching it through an IP address. Our lives are caught between the distance, between that IP address and the PIN code. Nice. So unless the IP address starts relating to the PIN code, we are creating dysfunctional citizenship. People don't know what are they, where do they belong, who they are, and therefore, what should be their principal purpose in life. True. And I think that is what is missing today. Now, that is what our civilization gives us. And I think those must be converted into stories and those must empower us to look ahead.

1:00:33I think we have to, we have to in our public discourse now make it fashionable and make it absolutely an imperative to only talk about what will you do over the last 10 years. I don't want to I don't want you to tell me what you have learned from our last 2000 years but I want to know based on that what is the next 10 years of action plan for you. And by the way that is why I am a big fan of this 2047 Bixit Bharat plan. Because I think one of the lessons that you can think about from China learn from China is that long view that they took I think India needs that long view we have condemned in our 5 year plan and condemned because we have the same 5 year plan and election cycle so the 5 year plan was to win the next election that was the 5 year plan 2047 means that I have already removed the current leadership of the political system from the fold so I am already looking beyond the current generation so it is no longer about sustaining one man's or one party's or one cohort's interest that is what is remarkable about what the Prime Minister has done that he has put India's transformation far beyond his longevity.

1:01:38And I think that is remarkable. That is what must be chased. True. You know, one thing just struck me. It's like what you and I do and like we here do is probably the same thing in just different manners because we say that internally we joke about it that our main purpose and main job is to take India's civilizational stack and give it to the world. That's how it's like, forget about our finance stack and UPI stack and stuff like that which you're already giving but civilization stack is our power and if we are very focused and determined and collaborate with people like you and all over the world we will with the sure power of content and numbers we will be able to give India soft power a seat at the world table and once we do that then our civilization stories and our lessons and other things will actually get a global platform to go out and have their own ways and pieces all around the world.

1:02:34So we are trying to do that. Our mission is absolutely just bang on. Tell me, what India already has that China doesn't? I'll tell you a simple answer. I have asked this one a few.

1:02:51Same question. Look, I think one way to answer that question would be to say that Chinese has all the German auto manufacturers but Deutsche Bank is in Bombay. all your outsourcing and business processing hub and all your bank documents and data is in India that is what we have that China doesn't trust nice I gave this answer to the Germans that your cars are in China but your data is with India I said you decide what is the difference now is that sufficient no can I feed myself on trust no so alongside trust I have to build an economic proposition. And that is the India's challenge. That as we move to Viksit Bharat, how do we become the green capital of the world?

1:03:40How do we ensure that the newfound momentum in sand to silica, our solar manufacturing, becomes so compelling that the wave of green transitions in Africa and Latin America are powered by India and not by China? How can we ensure that the digitization and the technology transitions that are taking place in the next 7 billion of humankind are powered by India and not by China. I think that's the India question. That trust with tech and with green transitions is the India offering. That is the India story. When you say Viksit Bharat, it is a green Bharat, it is a tech Bharat and it is a Bharat that has created price points that are relatable and relevant for Africa and Latin America and other parts of Asia.

1:04:21That is the India story. What specifically three things we need to get right in order to become the developed or the goal to achieve by the time we are 100 years old you know by 2047 the first revolution the human revolution never before in the world have such a large number of young people wanted to spend so much money to acquire some degree some knowledge some skills some competence everywhere else in the world governments have to find ways of getting people to come to school and colleges here people invest in social and culturally here people invest households spend money in private tuition and private schools and private education.

1:04:59Nowhere in the world is such a large part of household expenditure devoted to education like in India. We have a knowledge revolution, a very quiet knowledge revolution happening. We are not sensing it. Our problem is that buyer exists who wants to buy knowledge. Market product doesn't exist. That is the way to make them. So get our education system right. Get our product right. Get our product side of the education chain right. And you can create a billion champions that are going to take you there. That's the first revolution. Pinpoint enough? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Absolute. Number two, the energy revolution.

1:05:37Right? Please understand what we have to do. 10 years ago, as you walked down to the suburbs of Delhi, maybe 15 years ago, I've grown quite old, so I have to now look at it. I have to go deep into my past. But look at 15 years ago, if you walked near Chattarpur or the outskirts of Delhi or Bombay or any big city. I've lived in Bombay for seven years, eight years. Any big city, you would see women carry firewood on their head. That would be their fuel for cooking as well as for heating and different purposes, right? Now, more recently, post the scheme to give cooking gas the clean fuels in the clean stoves, etc.

1:06:21You see once in a month women carry the cylinders that you know they get one cylinder a month I think or more I'm not sure about the so please check that don't believe me but you see them carrying even more recently you see women carrying solar lamps and they become solar mamas and they are now running solar workshops and solar enterprises right we have seen this my problem is not this progression I love this progression from wood to gas to solar my problem is it is still the woman carrying energy you know I want the woman to be riding on energy not being provider of energy. You know, we have to break this unfair relationship between carbohydrate and hydrocarbon.

1:07:02If you go to the US, you see, you know, men and women ride on SUVs and cars and, you know, hydrocarbons are carrying carbohydrates. In India, carbohydrate is carrying hydrocarbon, the fuel. I think this relationship has to be changed. Women have to be freed. The NRLM, Rural Livelihood Mission, shows a very promising sign on women participating in the labor force in rural India. In fact, higher than urban India. And I think one of the reasons why it is happening is because we are freeing women from the shackles of providers of energy and utility to the house. Earlier, they were supposed to go and collect water and the firewood and care for the home and everything else.

1:07:39I think we have to break this vicious cycle of energy and humans and free the humans to produce value. Imagine India firing on both its cylinders. Imagine we are being able to catalyze our economic leadership that half of our country has been denied because they were being, you know, slotted into provisional roles in some sense. So I think that is the second one. The democratization of energy can actually allow a whole new cohort of business enterprises to emerge led by women, shaped by women, driven by them, powered by them, created by them. So I think the energy revolution that empowers women-led growth, you know, like the prime ministers, women led development model can we do that can we actually make that work can that idea become a practice and I think that's something that is my second thing that the energy revolution democratizing energy get smart grid solar and renewable energy you know light up every village and the lives of every individual I think that's the second one energy revolution and the third is digital revolution and I think this and I'm not really talking about YouTube consumption or or or the number of GBs we use, our data GBs.

1:08:53I'm really talking about what does it mean for the next generation of opportunities. For example, can these digital IDs and digital activities allow us to produce the greater participation in our financial markets? Yes, it is happening. Our assets under management are growing faster post-Digital India than they were before Digital India. It is because now a larger number of folks have become part of the financial ecosystem, from loans to even exotic mutual funds and insurances. Today, we are able to offer financial products to a much wider number of people than we could. Earlier, it was just a formal economy, right?

1:09:31The formal which of barely 10%. Today, we can go to a much larger. But can we see this be ramped up? And can we onboard people to economic mainstream from housing loans to many other activities that we took for granted living in houses which had a pin code, right? So can the IP address empower those without a pin code? And I think that's the digital revolution I'm talking about. Can digital revolution do to the Indians what it has done in terms of giving them a national ID? You know, earlier passport or a Russian card was the essential element to feel like an Indian, right? Today, your Aadhaar is enough, right?

1:10:12Can that also be your financial passport? Can that be your economic passport? And I think that's the third revolution. What is one thing that we do right, but as an Indian or majority of Indians, we don't give ourselves enough credit for? Elections, yeah. Are you kidding me? We don't give credit for elections. Yeah, we always crib about elections. We always have a grouse. But the fact is, I think we have done remarkably well as a very vibrant political ecosystem. We must not lose it. we must celebrate again the diversity and the difference of opinions and the different directions that our political entities want to take us towards it's good but I think our politics is one of our biggest success stories and we must zealously guard it we must defend it do you really believe sir?

1:11:03of course not the system but what the outcome it has created I was speaking to some of my colleagues and acquaintances from the communist party quite a few times a year we take multi-party delegations to different parts of the world all parties participate at the Nicena Dialogue so you know I have the opportunity to talk to them on a few occasions and I was telling the Congress party that you know you must rely I told them I said do you realize that the democratic ecosystem of India allows every element of our demographics to aspire for the top seat in this country. Our Prime Minister is from a small Western Indian state who won from a Hindu heartland, Hindi heartland seat in Uttar Pradesh and then, you know, was chosen as the Prime Minister of this country.

1:12:03This is democracy. Gujarati winning from Uttar Pradesh sitting in New Delhi. Narsimha Rao. I mean just think about it that your democracy do you think there are too many places in the world where this kind of diversity of participation for the top office is possible

1:12:24not a doubt it's very interesting I'm not saying we are the only one I don't want to say we are an exception I'm not saying that don't get me wrong but it is remarkable that we have seen such you know diversity of participation for the top job the top job should be available that is the point I'm saying not others not others others are lip service

1:12:46that is democratic success and why do you think we don't appreciate it enough you know I'll tell you why very simple how many of us spend time in telling the stories of these of this particular event that happens in our lives twice a year or once a year or once in five years in a big way now because of social media looks like it happens every six months right It happens every six months. But how many of us have done research, produced research papers, look at the dramatic transformation of voters? You know,

1:13:21our interest in our election ends on opinion poll day. Then we get results and then we get into politics. You know, let's do the right thing. But our interest in the process is just one day, we get to the opinion polls and we get to all sorts of opinion polls. I think, I want to say it to the top of the market. So it is a totally non-scientific evening that takes place. But anyways, that's not the point. At least we celebrate one evening. I think we should be doing this more often. We should be having detailed research papers. Our universities should be commissioning studies. You know, the Electoral, the Election Commission of India puts out the results in detail.

1:14:04We should do it. I mean, I'm a foreign policy think tank, but you know some domestic focused think tank should be actually doing justice and they do some do to be fair but not enough our elections should be storified and taken to the world stories of elections should be taken the unlikely winners should be documented and their stories should be told to you know only then people will realize how democracy it sometimes and in fact on many occasions has where the underdog prevails because of democracy I think that we don't celebrate that enough how many underdogs have been in many ways sustained by this democratic architecture or rather been catalyzed by this democratic architecture as an opportunity also for a lot of people who are wanting to step into content this is a great opportunity to build a content bank around correct unusual political leaders of India unlikely leader you know the unlikely leader and that's democracy democracy is about the ordinary it's not about the extraordinary democracy our democracy works because it is the ordinary that rises.

1:15:08And I think that is what we don't celebrate enough. You know, again, if you look at, if you track the journey of the Narsimha Rao's or the Prime Minister Modi's or the various Prime Ministers we've had, you know, from Devagoda, you know, you look at the cluster, look at the stories here. Look at the stories. We judge their performance at office. We are not doing enough service to that journey, to that office. and that journey to that office is inspirational for many people why do you forget it? why do you think we don't?

1:15:45ordinary it's for this and for that it's for the work for the imagination to make a lot of work you know you guys are like podcasts I'll tell you it's an interesting one by the way I'll give you now your sector analogy the lazy way of thinking about content that works on television now I'm talking about television or say the current affairs general affairs, general turn of the century model

1:16:20charismatic anchor and I'm not looking at bot leaning, charismatic anchor seven postage stamp participants very fast paced debate with no conclusion you know a little bit for everyone who is watching to grab onto and take back home and that was the lazy way of designing a successful one hour of channel that design fast paced action emotion ladai dhagada cacophony noise entertainment it was reality TV of a new variety right big boss on steroids it was like big boss on steroids right Our news became big boss on steroids Right Now What did you guys do The podcasters You always say 3-3 hours 5-4 hours Okay Okay Why do you put buttons in jeans Normally people put buttons You ask the mundane We are the slow ones Yes, 3 hours You know yeah yeah yeah you're not understanding I get it that is the difference that is exactly what needs to now be applied to our political stories and our democracy I think someone should actually start a podcast on the ordinary extraordinary leaders of India and maybe that's the podcast idea that I'm giving to someone who wants to do it and you know it's a good content opportunity it is an opportunity and the podcast will go on both of them and see advantage you have a captive viewership every episode is a captive viewership in India we don't have one thing for fans it's not it's not any niche you will get your fans you have a captive audience interesting that's an opportunity and thank you Raj for doing the podcast that you do and for three hours that you invest in lots of us thank you thank you so much for actually spending time it was pleasure talking to you Thank you so much.

1:18:30But why don't you do many like online podcasts and stuff? I'm a shy guy. But what do you say? There are other top think tanks in the country. Like probably in the world for certain subjects. You know, but I'm personally, I'm a shy guy. But my people do it. Shushan Serin is always on TV. Harshpant writes a lot. We have different people. I'm an institution guy. My job is what you saw. With my 10-12 people, I'm working. Thank you so much for watching this episode till the end. Now you have to do three things. Number one, subscribe to this channel right now. The more you subscribe, the better the guests we will be able to get for you.

1:19:09Number two, please comment and let us know what did we do wrong and what did we do right? Because the more you give us feedback, the better we will be able to make episodes for you. And number three, please share this episode with at least one person because one conversation can change someone's entire life. I'll see you next time. Until then, keep figuring out.