Why Doctors Leave India: Brain Drain, Low Pay & Healthcare Crisis | Dr. Bhaskar | FO511 Raj Shamani

39:20They are all very structured manner. Big hospitals. Small small clinics will be there. Primary health centers what we call. From there there is a systematic way of referral. There is no way a cardiac patient directly go to a hospital. It has to go to a primary physician from the next level. Unless he refers he can't able to go. That's where you can also cut down lot of cost. That is become a family physician. We used to have these family physicians before. Now we don't. We don't have. Now today if any problem they directly go to the biggest hospital and they spend a lot of money and they make it you and cry and necessarily spend money.

40:01There is no need actually. There should be a proper systematic way we should be able to refer these patients. But are we behind in terms of technology in healthcare around if you compare ourselves with any other country. Which country would be the best? As on today, see, basically, whatever technology that is available in America, is available in India. Okay. Even some equipments are even better available in India. Like, suppose, recently we acquired about in KIMS, magnetic resonance focused ultrasound, which cures the tremors in no time. Five minutes. There are people who have been suffering with tremors.

40:40They cannot even come to the functions also. hand will move like this. And even he can't be able to hold the glass. One of the patients we treated is a teacher. He cannot be able to hold the pen. Then his life is very useful for his medical educational profession. The moment we could, in five minutes, you could write everything. You could sign everything. In five minutes? In five minutes. After the treatment is over. Yeah, through the machine. What we do is, there is a brain, some center will be there which creates these tremors. We will be able to identify the focused ultrasound and that will go and trigger there.

41:18Then we will test. If we are able to put a needle there, if the tremor stops, then that is the right position. Then we will ablate that. So that means that organ has totally gone and then is free of… By the time you come out of the MRI, you will be totally free of tremors. For life. For life. Or will it come back again? Sometimes, you see, these are all technology. We don't know. But as on today, they say it is a permanent. Even if it comes again, we can go back once. See, the other way is... And what's the cost of it for one-time treatment? It is costing around 20 lakhs. For five minutes. It's very expensive.

41:57But 20 years, 15 years, 5 years, they struggle. And especially these people, if you want to do any surgery, you can't do some 70 years, 75 years. No anesthesia or nothing. You just go to the MRI, come back after two hours. Like that, we have technology. And why do tremor happen? Why do people keep shaking? See, basically in the brain, some of the centers, each body is governed by each portion. If there is some disease or anything, these things will be able to move on. And it's totally like curable now. Nice. And so many diseases, like we have a Tulsa Pro, where prostate, without surgery, we can able to do ablation of the prostate cancer, prostate things.

42:43You know now the prostate cyst which is benign cyst not even cancerous cyst is increasing in young men. I was reading a research recently. Their benign prostate is different from sometimes what will happen if the benign prostate is there then the urine output will be minimized. Then stagnation of the water and all. So that's why these are all hormonal changes and all those things will able to happen yes previously all these diseases cancer and everything used to come at the age of odd diseases beyond 60 65 like that today it's coming around 25-30 years the incidence has definitely increased in every disease so early stages even the breast cancer used to come at 15 years 20 years previously we never heard about it so this awareness one portion identification and all those things and the awareness of getting done the executive health checks is the most important then you said you came back from Australia right if you if you look at the data almost India loses like about India has lost about 75 ,000 good doctors to brain drain which is a lot of Indian doctors go abroad and then they don't come back because they don't want to and their reason is because they get a better i mean that's what people say that they get a better life there they get more money there they're able to actually build a much fulfilled happier life there right what do you think what goes in a in a 28 year old doctor's mind when they are in us or uk or australia and they've finished their super specialization now they have an opportunity either to come back to india or just stay in that country.

44:39What goes on in that man? See basically what's happening today two to three decades back what you said was correct. Most of the doctors as soon as they get they don't even get trained one the training opportunity was not here. So that's why they need to go to abroad to get trained and also exposure for the technology and other things. Then once they are very happy there they never used to come back. Today if you take when compared to last two to three decades going abroad has drastically come down previously they used to go down they used to go to overseas to learn once they learn and they are very happy most of them are settling down because as you mentioned that they are making good amount of money and all those things they never used to come back unless somebody who is having a real loyalty to the country and they want to come back and do service.

45:41There are many people out there. Today people are going not for learning. There are many people, worldwide people are coming to India to learn. Even if you take any African country, many people from America also are coming to get trained. The reason is we have a huge volume. What we see in one hospital, for them to see in the same volume, it may take one year for them. So that's why people are coming here to volume. So the learning. The good advantages what they used to have there, they can have a very smooth way of life. There is no need of any hurdles. The moment when you go, they settle down.

46:24In the sense, settle down in the sense they can be able to buy a car, they can be able to buy a vehicle, I mean house and their children's education is no issue. They can be able to and very good number of hours they can go and spend with the family. All those things were very, very comfortable. But which is not the case here. We are not still established and streamlined. But now it is there. But the only thing, when you go there, you never bother where you are staying. Whether it's a thousand family village, or a New York, or Houston, or anywhere. There will be the quality of life and all the facilities are same whether it is a small village or a big city.

47:11Even they prefer small village because they get all the facilities more comfort when compared to the city. Here, the missing link is that. That's why still people are going. Suppose we have plenty of doctors. All have been catered in the cities, metros. Nobody is going to the districts or even the small towns. The only two reasons they are saying is there is no good technology, good hospitals. Second thing is children's education. And they think that they may not able to enjoy the life there. The same person goes there. He will be able to live. At the end of the day a US doctor will be able to save more or Indian doctor.

47:55The saving will come Indian doctor will save more money than the reason is they are all the governance legally everything they will have compulsory health insurance. They will have the professional indemnity. Their car has to be insurance. House has to be insurance. There are so many other things expenditure will go on. Very systematically. Indian doctors will their savings is more. Got it. And doctors are usually not very entrepreneurial. They are not the CEO material. They are not founders. They are doctors. And that's why they are known for it. And so it's very unusual for a doctor to take a loan to start a business.

48:37What convinced you to start? See, basically the entire thing to take a loan is, my family people also used to my brothers run a business. So I can understand the value of the business, the loans and other things. Today, Indian doctors are not entrepreneurs. differ in the sense all the healthcare in India is built by the doctors only. The so-called big chains and they are the successful people. You take Medanthi, you take Fortis, you take Narayanan Ardhaya, you take Kim's, you take any number of chains. It's all built by the doctors. Apollo? Apollo also a doctor. He practiced see all of the biggest one point I want to convey here is all these chains all the hospitals even these are all chains I am talking about.

49:41If you take about all small small nursing homes it is all done by doctors only. So here many of them should be able to understand one of the success story of this is if you understand what you are doing and if you have experience of 10 years or 5 years in the same field the success story is 99 % similarly in healthcare there are many people who have made money, they want to establish a hospital, they establish it the success story is not that great they keep burning it because they understand that, it is not only in healthcare you take any field you take any field those who knows the business, those who have been worked for 5 years, 10 years and 15 years they know very well how to run the business except this lost funding that's why they are very successful, any field you take it they are all successful when they work for 10 years you take all the pharma industry one day or other they all worked for 10-15 years in the pharma industry only, they all were MRS and then they started you take all the original politicians, they are very successful.

50:58Those who come with money, they are not successful politicians. So the people who are there, they understand the root cause, the ground reality. They can face any type of challenges and overcome. But whereas other people come in a different thing, they will not. There is no exception for this. You take about any car factory or anything. Those who worked in the industry, even IT, they all worked and then started like that anybody who worked in their own field they have been worked they understood the business very well and they were able to grow there is no exception in that true tell me one one framework or a checklist that you follow when you acquire a hospital you said you acquired an asset and now you have more than 25 hospitals all around the country there must be some like a basic checklist like what are five things that you have to look in hospital before acquiring it one I should able to see whether there is an opportunity there second thing is if I am what do you mean by opportunity so when suppose if there is a hospital and there are is it the area is overcrowded or not suppose if there is a thing we require only thousand beds in that in thousand beds when I am acquiring it is a 200 bed or beyond 1000 beds.

52:27Suppose in 200 beds there is a great opportunity because another still 800 beds is required there. If it's already 1000 beds if I go and acquire there is no growth there. True. So that's why the opportunity I mean in the public is there a need for an hospital. But how do you assess? Under served. We see the service is basically this many number of patients this number of population this number of beds should be there. Okay. What's the formula? number of population usually 5 to 6 % of the population will get sick okay so if a village has let's say say about 1000 people 1000 people 50 people will always in a year will get sick and based on that and then 50 people would need 50 beds or no no they may need one bed so like what's the bed calculation 5 to 6 % is ratio for sickness sickness then versus how many people would require a bed each patient will stay about what we call as a loss, average length of stay each patient comes, it varies from 3 to 4 days suppose this 50 people comes there, average about 200 days that means if we take one bed, it will cover 200 days okay 50-60 people but out of them how many would require a bed out of 50?

53:50sickness means you mean people would require bed bed okay and then they would like 3 to 4 days the outpatient will be around 10 % in the population 10 to 15 % so outpatient would be about 10 to 15 % 5 to 6 % would require a bed and average length of stay would be 3 to 4 days so like that we will calculate and suppose there is a 10 lakh population that is one aspect second aspect the opportunity means again what are the specialties that are existing there in the city right now for every specialty of 10 lakh, 20 lakh population of districts. We need all the specialties like cardiology, renal, gastro, neuro, orthopedics, general medicine, gynec, everything.

54:35Most of the times in the new areas they will have one or two specialties only. There may be a thousand beds but there may be one or two specialties. So if I go with a multi-specialty so there is an edge for us. People try to come. So that we'll see. whether there is an opportunity there. One, the patient population. Then what are the specialties in single roof that they are having? These are the two important things. It's not cost? Cost is not the... No, that's why I am coming. Now, the affordability. So, first is opportunity. Second is affordability. Yeah. Even if there is affordability, if there is no opportunity, there is no point.

55:14First, opportunity is the most important thing. Second important thing is the affordability of the patient. How many affluent people are there? what is the percentage of insurance that they are doing and what is the per capita income of that place. Based on that, we will see. Third important thing is the availability of the doctors. So even though we can build a hospital, there is an affordable. The third thing is we need to be able to see whether the existing place doctors are available, practicing on their own single, single specialty where we can be able to attract them. Or there are people who are studying.

55:51they can be able to come back if there is a good facility is there. So the doctor's availability. Fourth one is the management. So that unless we don't have the proper management and all those things it's a very difficult thing. These are the five important things and then the due diligence. So if you do the, there may be land problems, there may be building problems there are so many problems. Land problems are the most common. More common, yeah. so these five if we are able to look and they are all comfortable then we will be able to see okay so you've worked in this and you've worked on grassroot level in your words right you've done about 30 ,000 surgeries right that's that's a lot what does a doctor who has done let's say 300 surgeries versus 30 ,000 surgeries Like what does a doctor see?

56:52After 30 ,000 surgeries, what do you see which you were not able to see when you did only 300 surgeries? See, the 30 ,000 experiences you'll have, you can be able to tackle any type of complication on the table. Because you have seen a variety of the same complications in 30 ,000. Whereas a 300 doctor, 300 person who has done not many number, you might have seen. But whenever we have seen this 30 ,000 journey, if there is a complex surgery, if I have done about 100 complexes, I can be able to identify, okay, I would have done here, this way, can be able to help. But a person in 300, if you do only two or three complex cases, he will still struggle.

57:35But he need to put a lot more efforts to see that he should go all the time wrong. Right. But then, doesn't it backfire sometimes because a doctor with 30 ,000, 40 ,000 surgeries will have a very fixed mindset of how to deal with a complex situation. And somebody who is new will maybe come up with, understand new technology, new things and will be able to actually move fast and be able to solve a problem much faster in a different way. No, the advantage in the human body, it's very dynamic. there is nothing like it is fixed. Even if I do 30 ,000 even if I do one specific surgery like say about coronary artery bypass surgery even if I do 20 ,000 of that all 20 ,000 to be different.

58:28There is no second opinion on that. So that means we are always on the toe whether it is a number that is not there but it will only give you the quick decision making. The surgeon should be very very good on making quick decisions on the table. Sometimes you may find a lot of surprises. When you have surprises, then you should be in a position to tackle to save the patient. That's why it's very dynamic. Every patient. See, similarly you see, there are 160 crores or maybe 600 crore population. No two people will be same, no? Unless it is twin. It has been created. So, it is every surgery of similar nature very rarely you find a similarity somewhere or other you will find some difference and his doctor who is old who is experienced are they like do they welcome technology now if you don't welcome the technology you will not be sustainable in the field people are demanding but are they not fixed I know how it works don't teach me this is your new thing I've seen it there are some people who tells and patient listens then they will choose the other doctor when they are losing the patients then he has to change first few patients you may say very formally I'm good I've done so many surgeries I know that if you lose two three patients then he has to change if he's not changed he'll be outdated like suppose you do a lot of previously when we're doing the abdomen like we used to cut everything for every surgery then there is a laparoscopic surgery then after laparoscopic surgery now robotic surgery has come so now everybody is doing robotic only the patients are demanding I need a robotic surgery the doctor has to go learn yeah he has he is forced to learn everything that's why these workshops they go and take things and come out the only thing is the patients expect a 10 star treatment but they want to pay only 3 star payment

1:00:47that is the only thing of the problem because when you want to do all these things they should be able to understand it costs but it's so expensive yeah sir 5 years back you did a surgery for my relative about 1.5 lakh now you are asking me 2.5 lakh please do that 1.5 lakh so you would have come at 10 years back

1:01:11but it's a lot but it's healthcare i mean when you compare to the world india is very cheap but in india for the income that we make healthcare challenges are very very expensive like it's almost unreal to even think somebody who's not somebody who doesn't have an insurance if at like 50-60 they get some major problem very difficult to tackle the cost of a private hospital that's what exactly I said the people who after paying the bills they fall into below poverty line but the solution is only today insurance today we are the pioneers in transplants we do lung transplants more than 100 every year more than 100 every year which was not happening it is the Asia's number one center in Sekhundrabad there the minimum cost should be 60 lakhs to go up to 2 and of 3 crores per lung transplant per transplant the reason is they come in the late stage they cannot be able to breathe and if you don't they will die then we don't know when the organ is going to come because it's all cadaver organs we need to pull and then I need to be able to support the patient on a heart lung mission like ECMO what we call when you're supporting this ECMO every day it costs 2 and 3 lakhs sometimes the organ may come after 30 days, 60 days so he's artificially maintaining in the mission till the organ comes, these are all expenditure these are all disposables because to maintain that.

1:03:00So what happens when you are maintaining an artificial heart and artificial lung, the entire body immunity system will differ. To recover also, it will take longer time. Today you come today and tomorrow if I do the surgery, you will recover within 10 days, maybe 30-35 lakhs will be finished. If you want to stay pre-operatively a long period of time, at the same time, you will expect to stay in the post-op also a long time. So it costs. We tell them this is going to cost you this much money but they don't mind but there is no other go for them if somebody has been earned and they want to live for two years there are many people who got operated and doing their work everything our own doctor has got operated and is doing surgeries and everything and is it what are the chances that you will be you will get back to normal life every day normal life only otherwise where is the point but then if you do lung transplant you overall you get weak no that is only after 2-3 months but you don't even after 2-3 months you are not able to live the same kind of life that you were living 100 % there are people our own relatives friends who got operated and doing their work what they were doing before even better than that and what is the percentage that this operation will be successful around 60-70 % 30 % will be there once all the 60 % 3-4 people out of 10 will not be able to make it.

1:04:30And without that operation also they will not be able to make it. So after that, but six people will be able to do it. And they live a good quality of life. And they do their job. It is unlike any other surgeries. Their quality of life is much, much superior. See, basically, before operation, some of the people will be on total oxygen at home also. You can't go out also. Even to go to washroom also, you have to go oxygen only. And those are the people when you remove the oxygen and they are great. But is this covered insurance? Some portion, whatever they have been done, it will cover insurance.

1:05:07People used to get up to 50 lakhs, 1 crore from insurance company. But healthcare insurance also, not many people would take like a crore or 2 crore insurance. Nowadays, many people are taking. And then the insurance company covers this? Yes, yes. Transplant is covered in there? Yeah, yeah. last year we did about 500 kidney transplants most of them are covered 150 liver transplants we are pioneers in the transplant program in Hyderabad and how much a kidney transplant costs in India 8 to 10 lakhs and liver liver will be around 35 to 40 lakhs lungs is the most expensive bone marrow transplant also is a little expensive 40-50 lakhs see the basic thing what I am trying to tell is the beauty because I have the passion that I need to do something to the society for the patients every unit wherever I serve I set up a multi-specialty hospital so that the quality care will be much much superior than doing a single speciality so that timely patients will come doctors will come to the patient to attend.

1:06:2324 by 7. That is the crucial period. The golden hour will not be able to be minimized. With that, they can be able to do the wonders. And every city, wherever we establish, we do liver transplants, we do kidney transplants, we don't do lung transplants. Lung is only in... So that cost will come down there. Maybe another 5-10 lakhs down. More than that is accessible to the patient. even liver transplant you have to take 2-3 weeks so they will be there nearer to there they can go home and come back that's why the primary aim of being a doctor and the passion I could able to establish we need to provide everything in the nook and corner wherever I set up a hospital tell me one thing which is the most wonderful thing which I read about you and very intriguing as an entrepreneur I want to know that is in your entire journey I think in 25 years of running you have been able to retain 98 % of your doctors.

1:07:32How? See the people who leave, there are a few as you rightly mentioned when they are not comfortable in the hospital when they don't get the freedom when they don't make the money what they are supposed to make then these are the triggering funds to leave the organization which I realized being a consultant I worked for this, these are the things I need to take care of the doctors I am taking care of that the third, fourth important thing which also makes them to leave is the finance so sometimes when most of the people people who are dedicated to quality care dedicated to have a freedom and all those people they will see the difference between the finance and the quality of life and quality of treatment and all those things, those people, they don't, if it is 10-15%, they never leave that.

1:08:31Even, there are many people who have given a full check, blank check, please come. But they don't know. They realize what is the value that they go, they get. When they give a blank check, they expect something to do. They won't give free of cash. Of course. I'm very comfortable here. I'm enjoying my life. I'm enjoying my profession. I'm making money. I'm making money. Where is the need of 10-20 % I should go out? And in fact, most of them, that's how we could be able to retain them. As long as you satisfy, they feel it is my hospital. The ownership, the responsibility. And they keep contributing to that.

1:09:10Do you as a hospital chain, do you invest a lot in research like R &D? we are doing research but not the way which we are supposed to do because that much money we can't able to take out from here and we need to be able to get some funds from outside and like that we have been developed there is one called Drishti totally blind people we created with an artificial intelligence with that these people can able to see the entire house it is prefixed images the moment when they are moving around they enable them this is the bathroom, this is the door this is this, this is this all those things will be there they can be able to identify and there can also be audio they can be able to find out what is happening in the entire world through AI what is the temperature and delete it will be able to give you the ceiling and we also invented and tried to do this deaf people basically deaf people is the biggest problem, they can't express to the doctor the sickness and doctor cannot able to what he is saying he will not able to understand so we created a national level tourism Zoom and we put one doctor who can able to negotiate it here with the patient so that patient will tell this person he will converse to the doctor he will give the treatment and he will be able to tell so now there is today when we are doing these organ transplants when we want to get a lung or a liver from a distant place, if there is a commercial flight available, their life will be only 4 to 5 hours.

1:10:56We will safeguard with that. If it is costing more than 4 to 5 hours the patient has to take the charter flight, air ambulance that will cost around 15 lakhs per organ to bring. Some of the affordable people they pay, otherwise they don't. That's why we are trying to develop where we can able to get a 10-15 hours life of the organ. We are almost successful in that with research. If that comes, a lot of saving we can do for the patient. Once this is successful, we are trying to get whether the drones can able to transport the organs. Or maybe increase the shelf life of preserving an organ? Yeah, that's what we are trying now with this.

1:11:43If we do 12 hours then most of the time we lose commercial flights. And then that will be much cheaper. Because anyway the cost of an organ would be so expensive that then getting it another 15 lakhs is a bigger, bigger, bigger cost. That organ transplant is expensive and for that again paying another 15 lakhs for this is much more expensive for them. You started a hospital in Afghanistan. why how what happened basically what happened at that time my brothers mentioned they were contractors when they were doing a contract they went to Afghanistan because American funding so good profits they went and did the roots then when we were doing there they met one of the doctor doctor said there is no facilities here and all the people for a CT scan and MRI and ultrasound they used to come to Delhi.

1:12:42There is weekly one flight only at that time. And then doctor came and saw all those things. So initially we will build a hospital there. Then I said we don't know anything. First initially we start we will do a diagnostic center. So that I can be able to test what is the culture and how the people and all those things. Even the diagnostic also they don't have a doctor there. I used to send doctors from here. Some of them are telemedicine and like that. Once it has been started and picked up very well, because the doctor has asked, our people also made good amount of money in that project. So at least, okay, even something goes wrong, whatever profits we made, it will go something.

1:13:24At the time, private equity people were not there. Then it started very successful. Then later on, few people have started on their own. and this doctor also then instead of putting a hospital the diagnostic centre itself has been very successful why should we partner with him we have now everything we understood they also started hospitals that way indirectly we created a good healthcare for the Afghanistan people so now most of the people are not coming there are some people come and got trained here so it is a gesture for the country what we earned money there so we thought they are suffering we gave that one but you didn't think about opening your own then see there the entire conditions are different basically as I said no we are all in Andhra it is because of this pressure we started to run a hospital even taking doctors is challenging one doctor to take radiology itself it took a long time even the lab technicians I used to take the management used to go there and then again the country is not that safe yeah at that time was it safe or no No, it was not.

1:14:32Monday I went there to see the facility. Just 10 meters away from there is a bomb blast. Those things have come and heated my house glasses. So, that was there. and when our people are doing after that there are two of our engineers has been kidnapped by the Taliban our workers my brother's workers then we used at least at that time and put the government also supported and safely got them got them out so there's a risky that's why there's no need actually we have great opportunity today yeah what did you what was your learning in that phase? See the learning is we will be helpful but we should also see that we should also safeguard our skin at what level we are trying to help.

1:15:30If that is the case if we can able to donate some money and establish yourself it is much safer if you want to do good rather than put the skin and then see what happens. So tell me one last thing which is what can the world learn from Indian healthcare today what should they copy basically they should also see that accessibility to the patient is immediate they can't be able to waste for three years there are in UK there is two years waiting list for joints and all to replace even the cancer patients also has to be some of them are dying in the waiting list so the two alter that they should be able to change a little bit of number of people should increase or they should be able to allow free number of people to put the hospitals so that to cater the need of the patient population.

1:16:28So there is a mismatch of the need and the opportunity. So the need is so much but the opportunities are very less. They should be able to change and then they let them be free that if they want to see 8 hours work let them work 8, 10, 11, 12 hours so that at least without increasing the manpower these people can able to they have the capacity to do but some of the laws and regulations they are very happy they are getting the money they are very comfort zone why should they work hard they should do but their laws is I think what I read loosely was they want doctors to work only specific hours so that doctor can focus and be able to treat patients in the nice way.

1:17:16Not be exhausted and tired and then see a patient. Because then it affects their ability to treat them. Yeah, that's what because they have been habituated to that type of lifestyle from day one, that country. Our country is we are working 18 hours. Still we feel we are not tired. We enjoy. So that's why they think they are right. Some of the people that they think that Eight hours beyond that, they were not able to concentrate much. But the eight hours, as long as you are enjoying your work, you will never get tired. If you are not enjoying, then actually if you say I want to work only six hours, still I want to see that patient and do, then you will feel bad actually.

1:17:58The Indian people, when they go there, they will feel bad. So I need to, we are accustomed to stay with the patient for a long period of time. and see that you will be able to recover. There are occasions where I have been stayed with the patient overnight. Next day morning, I used to go and operate. So, those are all priorities you should be able to select. You are fragmenting it. You are not making them ownership. If you feel ownership, you will never be tired. You never go any wrong decisions. Only thing is you are restricting. Today, you have been seen this much. after 12 hours, 24 hours you come back and see what is the continuation that you have there is no continuation and then they all see what the other doctor has seen whether it is right or wrong you should be able to go with the same protocols there is a totally missing link there here we go home 24 we will be able to find out our patient what is happening if you send the investigations as it come back have you been treated given you have taken any cross consultation all these things we will keep on following it true you are giving more ownership here you are feeling this is my patient I need to do something at any cost and with that cost with that work I am enjoying my profession true so it's fair so this is one thing that they should copy here is the last thing which I keep asking every guest these days is fill in the blanks is India will only grow when dash India will grow when they understand the dignity of labour we started like this and we are ending like this thank you so much thank you for coming here and spending time with me it was pleasure knowing you thank you so much for watching this episode to the end now you have to do three things number one Now, subscribe to this channel.

1:20:03Because as much as you subscribe, we will have guests to get better for you. Number two, please comment on us, what we did wrong and what was good. So, we can learn more feedback and create more better experience. And number three, you must have to share this episode with someone. Because one conversation is enough for someone's life. I'll see you next time. Until then, keep figuring out.

1:20:32Thank you.