Why Gen Z Feels Like Failures: AI, Loneliness & Dark Side of Success | Dr. K | FO481 Raj Shamani

15:20Dr. K:So it's interesting because some people will think technology effect is bad. But like I started this company called Healthy Gamer. It's not and I struggle with video game addiction. But my whole thing is like technology isn't shouldn't be removed. We have to learn how to use it. It's a tool. The problem is it's affecting us in ways that we don't realize. OK, so what I see is, you know, I'll just give you an example of a patient. So someone who is very successful, a man in his mid 40s was in investment banking, moved to private equity, has done billion dollar deals that if you read the wall street journal did acquisitions for fang companies and things like that so he's like as successful as you can get married has kids never divorced and he's like suicidal has a noose in his basement thinks about killing himself every single day why exactly so here's the key thing to understand you can be successful in some dimension You can look at people like Robin Williams or like – you can look at – there are some stories, which if you're clinically familiar, I'm not going to comment in specifics.

16:26Dr. K:But you can look at a lot of the world's most successful people by measure of net worth or the positions they hold and things like that. And you can kind of tell just based on their social media presence, these people are not happy. Some of them are using tons of drugs. And the question is why? Right? So you're sort of saying – and I completely agree with you that there's been a democratization of tools. Like the reason I'm here today is because – I mean I trained in something that's not this. I just started showing up on the internet and like opened my mouth and like that turned into a thing.

17:01Dr. K:That wasn't possible 100 years ago or even five years – 20 years ago, 30 years ago, right? And so there's absolutely a democratization. There's absolutely an increased capacity for an individual human being to achieve material success. Completely agree. But the reason that I don't really differentiate between a CEO and a homeless person, I've worked in jails, I'll work with anybody, is the fundamental human is the same. And for some people, they think that material success will bring me happiness, and there's plenty of evidence of that. I think one of the sad things is that there's a mental health crisis and I think that really is an economic crisis.

17:40Dr. K:50 % of people under the age of 30 still live at home with their parents in the United States. That's different in India. But in the US, you're supposed to move out at the age of 18 or 22. That's how you become independent and things like that. So we're starting to see low rates of home ownership in the US. We're seeing people living at home. We're seeing median income is not keeping up with inflation. We're seeing a loneliness epidemic. Birth rates are falling. So there's absolutely like economically, like some people are doing well. So one of the scary things I'll talk a little bit about is like we're in a phase of natural selection.

18:13Okay.

18:14Dr. K:What do you mean by that? So natural selection is when there's a lot of organisms and some event happens. And if the organisms are not adapted to their environment, they die out or don't reproduce. So we're literally seeing that today. where there's a lot of people, you may have heard of this term incel. You familiar with that? So this is someone who's involuntarily celibate. These are people who literally will not pass their genes on. They're not able to find a mate. They're not able to procreate. So there's like literally a natural selection event happening to where these people, those genes will leave our gene pool forever.

18:53Dr. K:They'll kind of die out. So technology is this thing that some people have learned to take advantage of. Some people have not learned to take advantage of. Some people have used technology to take advantage of other people. Right. So on the one hand, AI is a good example of this, gives us the opportunity to do so much more work. But it's also knocking a lot of people out of employment.

19:15Raj Shamani:Yeah.

19:16Dr. K:So there's this weird dichotomy going on. That's absolutely true. I don't think technology is bad. We need to learn how to live with it. And then the second thing is that even if people are doing better, it doesn't mean that they're doing mentally better. Right? So you'll see that a lot of people who are very successful will still struggle in certain ways. You know, there's weird things I run across. Like a good example of this is like, you know, you podcaster dudes, which I guess I fall into. You know, how old are you, Raj?

19:46Raj Shamani:If you don't mind. 29. Okay. Are you married? No, not yet. Is that challenging for you?

19:52Dr. K:Like, I'm curious. Is that? Yeah. Yeah. Right. So this is like, well, you're really successful. People don't realize that it makes, I won't ask you more. I can see it's making you uncomfortable.

20:00Raj Shamani:No, it's okay. You can ask me. I'm pretty open about it. So like, you know, all you podcast bros, like none of y 'all are married. Have you noticed that? Oh, yeah.

20:10Dr. K:No one is like, oh my God.

20:12Raj Shamani:Shit. Right? Dude, yeah. None of y 'all.

20:18Dr. K:You're successful. But like – and here's – there's a problem that people don't realize, which is like once you become successful, who are they marrying? Are they marrying Raj Shamanee who's like this entrepreneur who's like, oh my god, is that who they're marrying? Are they marrying like that guy who screwed up when he was like eight years old? You know, like who are they marrying now? Are they marrying the identity? Are they marrying the social media titan? Are they marrying like the human? and because you're going to be attracting a lot of, I don't know if you're, you know, what your preference is, but you're attracting, you're going to attract all kinds of women.

20:54Dr. K:A lot of women who are going to be looking to date you and things like that. And so it becomes scary. Like people don't realize that like, I'm sure you have good friends and stuff, but a lot of y 'all are lonely, you know? Right? And it's weird. People don't see that. So human beings are not one thing. They're not homogenous. So you can have success in one dimension. And you can struggle in others. And one of the scariest things is that everyone thinks success is like one thing, right? So like now that you're successful, you have it all. And then you're not allowed to complain, right? Certainly not.

21:30Dr. K:You're going to get canceled. Yeah. And this guy is ungrateful. And so like, you know, now there's a certain sense to that, I think. But like don't be confused for a moment that you can have, you can be good at one thing and you can struggle at something else. It doesn't make your life easy. the nature of like happiness and contentment is not external things and there's tons of evidence for that i've worked with so many people in banking and finance and content creators so happy when you get your million subscribers right hundred thousand subscribers you get your whatever your bronze youtube plaque then you get your million subscribers then you get your silver youtube plaque and then you want your gold one and so there's like you can always move the goal post oh you want this promotion you want this promotion you get it and then are you content for the rest of your life.

22:14Dr. K:Absolutely. Now you need more. Now you need more. So this is where like, I think it's great because some of those mechanisms in our brain, ambition, for lack of a better word, they help us achieve success, but they don't help us achieve happiness. And sometimes they lock you in in a very dangerous way. I saw this a lot when I was faculty at Harvard where, you know, so a lot of these kids, like, I had a friend who was at Harvard Law School and I asked him, you know, what's your first year like? And he's like, it's terrible. And I was like, that's weird. And he said that one of the worst things that, I asked him the same question, why?

22:56Dr. K:He said, one of the worst things that you can do is take a bunch of kids who used to be the smartest in the class and make them average. Happens overnight. And now suddenly you're average, you're below average. There is a kid who's at the bottom of the class at Harvard Law School. What do you think it's like to be in the mind of that kid? He's the stupidest kid in the class. And this is Harvard. So when he sees other smart kids, like we're talking about like the smartest kid in that class is brilliant on a completely different level. Like I remember when I was an intern, I was in the coffee line, line to get coffee at four o 'clock.

23:33Dr. K:And one of my co-interns was with me and like, you know, we were on a rotation together. He was an intern at Madison Doc. I was just talking to him. I was like yeah i have a patient with this and he started quoting all these studies i was like you're an intern and you know all this stuff i was blown away by how brilliant this guy is and so there's there's it's not as simple as success is happiness and so a lot of the work that i try to do is like help people understand that but then what's going on in the mind of people

24:02Raj Shamani:see we are dealt with the same cards the same sort of world sort of right now i'm not talking about past yeah okay you me somebody's watching this we are dealing with the same technology yeah same kind of stuff yeah in minds of let's say you and me we're thinking of this as an advantage i maybe i'm not happy maybe i'm not content and i'm perpetually discontent in some sort of way But I'm looking at this as an opportunity and I'm trying to take an advantage of it. And at the same time, somebody who's probably my age, same kind of financial background, same kind of city he comes from or she comes from, that person's thinking that this is just they're losing hope.

24:43Raj Shamani:They're getting more terrible about it. They're just comparing and internalizing that maybe this is not working out at all. What's happening in both of our minds? Because one sees this as an opportunity because we don't realize at later what will be the price. But today I see it in opportunity. I don't think that maybe this is wrong, but somebody else sees it as completely bad and they're losing hope. What's going on? Like, why are we differently wired?

25:12Dr. K:I'm happy to answer, but what do you think? So you strike me as a thinker. You think about stuff, right, Raj? What do you think? Like that question comes from somewhere. Like y 'all are dealt the same hand of cards. Why do you see it as an opportunity and they see it as doom?

25:35I don't know.

25:36Raj Shamani:I think it can come from the family background. Sure. Because in my family, I've always seen people, at least my father, no matter what situation he was in, whether it was complete devastation, he was broke and fired at the workplace and he was not able to even make a penny, you would still see that as an opportunity to start new and maybe build a better life. So I've always seen that. Maybe that has carried with me. That's the only rational decision.

26:05Dr. K:So your problem is that you started off with an incorrect statement. Everyone's dealt the same hand of cards. No, they're not. The world is the same. But your life experiences, your genetics, the way that your mind works, if you believe in this stuff, your samskaras and even karma and like this other weird kind of stuff, And the reason that I kind of mentioned that is that the variance that you see between people must be explainable in some way. Right? So you can explain some of the variance with genetics. You can explain some of the variance with upbringing. You can explain some of the variance with personality.

26:45Dr. K:But personality is a combination of genetics and upbringing to a certain degree. The reason I believe in the other weird stuff is that I do a better job of helping people because those variables are not enough to explain the variance. So I had a patient once who lost a leg because they were standing on a curb and a car swiveled. Like, you know, a car just moved one foot. They were driving at the edge of this one foot. Hit this person's leg. Just standing on a curb. Everyone does it every day. Lost a leg. Gone forever. Was an athlete. College athlete. career very promising suddenly gone what did they do wrong they didn't do anything wrong i had another pressure it's kind of sad um was at a party on the third floor balcony third floor u.s so second floor for y 'all it got drunk jumped from the balcony to the pool didn't make it to the pool hit the ground paralyzed from the neck down both of these people in college, both athletes, both promising careers, one of them made a huge mistake.

27:52Dr. K:The other one did not. Right. And so how do you explain this variance? So for me, explaining all of the variance that accounts for individual difference. Sure, we all live in the same world, but we're not the same people. We're not we don't have the same circumstances. We don't have the same advantages. So, you know, just to share a little bit about myself, kids fail out of college every day. Not all of them have parents who are both doctors who can send them to India to spend seven years studying to become a monk, who have parents who can afford their tickets. I don't have to pay my rent. I don't have to get a job.

28:32Dr. K:I have parents who can support me in this spiritual journey. That's part of the reason that, you know, I started streaming on Twitch because it's like, I was done, except my circumstances made it so that I got a second chance, third chance, fourth chance, fifth chance. Right? So I think that when we look at what's different between you and another person, that's what I find exciting is like, let's get into that.

28:55Raj Shamani:Right?

28:55Dr. K:Why do you see the world as doom? Why can't you see it Raj's way, which is what I do most by patience. And then the other really cool thing is that it's not like one of you is right and one of you is wrong. And statistically speaking, Raj, you're probably wrong because people are getting screwed all over the world. So if you see it as an opportunity, the majority of data suggests that it's not an opportunity. In some dimensions, things are getting better, most dimensions. But a lot of people, they're kind of messed up. Things are not looking bright. 70, there was one study on LinkedIn that found that 70 % of people in their 20s are going through like a quarter life crisis.

29:42Dr. K:Right, so like -

29:43Raj Shamani:Why the life hasn't even started? This is what I don't understand these days.

29:46Dr. K:Yeah. Well, yeah, life hasn't started, but they've been trying to start it and they've been failing.

29:58Raj Shamani:Why does this all of a sudden pressure, including me, I even have this pressure, Like, I want this fast. I want this now. And before even the life has started, most of us feel like we've failed in this. Why this has come down to earlier, people used to feel that in maybe 40s. Yeah, exactly. We used to have midlife crises. Now we have quarter life crises. We're getting better, faster.

30:22Dr. K:We want to be faster, so we're doing it. Why do you think it has reduced? Okay, so you said that, you know, you feel like you want things faster. Where does that idea come from? So when you have an idea in the mind, right? So it's your mind that tells you to do it faster, right? Where does that come from?

30:39Raj Shamani:I want to achieve something very fast.

30:42Dr. K:That's what the idea is. Where did you get the idea to achieve in the first place?

30:50Raj Shamani:Because I was never an achiever in my childhood. Okay, good. So all my cousins and all my siblings who are of the same age, they all were like toppers. all my friends were like great sports people and I was like none of them so I thought and the moment I got something in which I'm probably a little good at I want to do it at a level that I'm world best and I want to do it fast because I was never the achiever so now I finally get a sense of achievements I want to achieve everything fast

31:20Dr. K:what's the problem with slow

31:25Raj Shamani:I've never asked this question when you can get fast why do you want it slow You know, sometimes people will do something called sex.

31:35Dr. K:Why go slow when you can go fast?

31:43Raj Shamani:Right? Wow. If I say that I'm enjoying that, then you're going to say, I'm enjoying this. And then maybe.

31:52Dr. K:Don't do that. Good, good. You're a clever guy. But like, let's think about it, right? So like, oh man, like let's, so when I was growing up, we used to go on vacation and we would go, you know, my dad was like, okay, we're going to go, we're going to see all the places. So we're going to like wake up at four in the morning in the car for three hours. We see this place, take pictures, hop in the car, go to the next place, see pictures. And then what vacation was, we'd spend a lot of time in the car and then taking pictures. Right? Is that, but now I've seen all these places. I have pictures from all these places.

32:28Dr. K:Is that better? No. What? Yeah, so you tell me, where is the idea of faster coming from? What happens when you're done? So you want to do it fast, right? If you can do it, which means that it can be done. So let's say you do it all fast. Then what?

32:44Raj Shamani:I don't know.

32:46Dr. K:Weird, right?

32:47Raj Shamani:Yeah. I don't know.

32:49Dr. K:Okay. So there are a couple things to understand. Tell me a particular memory because I'm sure you've got them. You said that all of your cousins were toppers. But there's got to be like a couple that stick out. Right? So I'll tell you like one is an example. So I had a friend in high school who was at the top of our class. And so she did this like accelerated medical program. She's an amazing human being. And I remember like many years later, I was talking to her and I was like, oh, so what are you up to now? And I hadn't seen her in many years. And she's like, oh, I'm, you know, I'm a doctor now.

33:28Dr. K:And she's like, what are you up to? And I was like, I'm applying to medical school. We're the same age. We used to sit next to each other. She's done. I'm trying to start. Right. And that's why people get suicidal. It's not that it's that life is being denied to them. I'm trying, but it's getting harder. Back in my day, you know, so I used to say like I applied to 140 jobs and then I finally got my first job. Today, 140 is what people do in a week. You know, like that used to be like a big number. Now it's like you do that in a week. People apply for thousands of jobs. So there must be a time in your life where there's like a particular moment where you like one of your cousins did something.

34:16Dr. K:and then you felt like I'm not like that. You know what I mean?

34:19Raj Shamani:Yeah, yeah. Can you share that? Yeah. Tell me. This was a moment right after the report card. I think this was my ninth or 10th class. I don't remember the exact class, but somewhere around that. And there were like three of my cousins, probably same age. And they were like, they came like one, two, and three, like first, second, third in the class. And then the entire family was just talking to them and trying to nobody said anything to me like I still have that but they didn't say that oh you're bad or you're this nothing but then nobody said anything to me yeah it was no appreciation no recognition nothing it just everybody was just talking about these three people and that's it and we live in a joint family and a joint family and everybody was just concerned about them and how are they keeping up and how can they console the third one that it's okay to come third and second

35:13Dr. K:right So it was almost like, how are they consoling person who came third?

35:21Raj Shamani:Like, you know that? Yeah. So I have this memory where I was just left out. Like I was unnoticed.

35:30Dr. K:Yeah. So this is what's really scary about that. So first of all, I think the people who watch this podcast will feel that. Like I get the hair on my arms is like standing up. I'm getting goosebumps hearing that story. We talk about like trauma is like bad things, right? So like I've had patients who've been physically abused and sexually abused, but like to be invisible. Yeah. Right? And people are – I'm glad you mentioned that they consoled number three because you'd think that people would be happy to be number three, right? So here's the scary thing. No one in that situation is happy, not even number one.

36:11Dr. K:Yeah. right so number one is like yay i got number one today but number two is right there i don't want to be number two next time so this is what's really scary it's like everyone's like okay i want to be number one number one is a scary place because then you have to stay number one so it's like it's like you're screwed if you're number one you're screwed if you're number two you're screwed if you're number three you're getting consolation out of bopper hi hi you're doing okay yeah and then you're just off in the corner everyone's ignoring you let me ask you something raj is anyone ignoring you now hell no no no never never again you're not going to be that kid ever again how many how many millions of subscribers do you have on youtube again tell me 13 14 yeah no one's ignoring you now you fixed that problem and i'm sure you've done a lot of work.

37:06Dr. K:I can tell. So you're really positive and everything is an opportunity and things look like good shit. But deep down, I don't know that that wound is gone. I don't think it is. Now you want to do faster because there's a wound in you that you're trying to fill up. You're trying to make that go away. That's still a part of you. And you're like, it's 14 million hasn't made it go away. So now I need to get to 30 million, 40 million, 50 million and faster and faster and faster because 13 million hasn't been enough. It's not enough. So let's go. Because you're tired of it, right? You don't want to, you don't ever want to be that kid again.

37:41Raj Shamani:Yeah. I don't want to be invisible again. You're never going to be invisible again.

37:46Dr. K:So, but you're kind of in trouble, right? People won't, you're not allowed to say it. We're not allowed to say it, but I think people will understand once they hear that you had that story, people have been invisible. You know, people have been ignored. People have been like looking at like, why are they consoling number three?

38:02Raj Shamani:I'm number 57. What's going on? Right.

38:07Dr. K:So I think so many people don't get the help that they need when they need it. Do you think everyone who's accomplished who you have spoken to or you've

38:22Raj Shamani:observed from the top billionaires to the athletes, they've been wounded? That's why they're there?

38:28Dr. K:Not all of them, but I would say that the best thing, you know, my wife keeps on telling me like, you need to make a video about it because you work with all these people. Like what separates them?

38:37Raj Shamani:Yeah.

38:37Dr. K:And honestly, the thing is that they're broken in the right way.

38:42Raj Shamani:Explain.

38:43Dr. K:You're broken in the right way because the wound that you got did not give you doom. It gave you like, I'm a proof. I'm never going to be that again. It's going to be ambition. I'm going to show the world. You're 29 years old. Dude, I'm 43. I have like 3 million subscribers. Right? Oh my God. And you're 29. Right? So you were broken in a way that's like pretty lucky. And like most of the people that I work with were also broken in a way that's like pretty lucky. Not all of them. A lot of them, like there are a lot of successful people, but then they don't end up in my office. Right?

39:21Raj Shamani:But then why can't... And I'll tell you based on all the people I've spoken on podcast and myself. Yeah.

39:27Dr. K:Right?

39:29Raj Shamani:I'm happy. It's not that I'm like sad. Like I'm really happy. Yeah, I know. I'm discontent. Like I'm not satisfied with this thing, right? Well, I mean, shouldn't you be celebrating?

39:40Dr. K:I don't know. So let's understand. Let's talk about why that happens. Yeah, okay. Okay. So first thing to understand is when you talk about sad, is that a bad thing? Is being sad bad?

39:55Raj Shamani:For me, it's always helped me. so not for me.

39:59Dr. K:Ah, very good. Right, so here's the first thing to understand. What percentage of human beings, so I'm talking to you now, okay? So I'm gonna go into teacher mode because I'm teaching. Okay. What percentage of human beings on the planet have the capacity to feel sad?

40:18Raj Shamani:Almost everybody. Everybody.

40:20Dr. K:Every single human on the planet can be sad, right?

40:22Raj Shamani:Yeah.

40:24Dr. K:What percentage of human beings can be afraid? Everybody. What percentage of human beings have the capacity to lose hope? Everybody. Anger? Everyone. So we say these things are bad, right? Like being angry, sad, shame, fear. These are the, I want joy. I want excitement. I want fun, humor, freedom. We want all this stuff. But first thing to understand, we've evolved for negative emotions. Yeah. Even reptiles can feel angry. It's not clear whether they can feel sad or not. So first thing to understand is that negative emotions are not negative. Negative emotions are probably the most powerful motivators we have from a scientific standpoint.

41:10Dr. K:So everyone's like, cultivate joy and curiosity. No, don't do that. If you want to be successful, be like you. Be tortured. You want to know why you are where you are at your age and I am where I am at my age. The difference between us is I went to India and I became content and you didn't. Right? So I learned about how to be content. And then I made the terrible, the stupid professional decision to learn how to be content. And it's been an absolute – I'm the only podcast bro that's married. Isn't that great? I love it. Yeah, that's good. You poor guys. Yeah. Right? And so this is important to understand.

41:57Dr. K:Negative emotions are the most powerful motivators. That's why everyone wants to get rid of them because usually they motivate us in a way that we're not happy with. This is what I mean about being broken in the right way. So when you feel insufficient, when you feel invisible, you're the lucky person because the way you're going to deal with that is you're going to be visible. You're going to show them, right? But some people are unlucky because when they're invisible, they accept it. They're more spiritually developed than you are and they learn acceptance. Okay. Now I'm going to be, they become resigned, right?

42:35Dr. K:So maybe the influence of your father is important here because they didn't have the modeling. So, you know, I've been working with someone recently who it's really hard because they have taught themselves, and this is happening really a lot. They've taught themselves how to stop wanting. Because when they want, they get disappointed. So there is an adaptation that protects them from disappointment. You don't want to be disappointed, right, Raj? No one wants to be disappointed. So the mind teaches us this really interesting thing, which is it stops wanting, It gives up. It resigns itself. Right?

43:12Dr. K:There's no point. And if I don't try, I can never fail. Right? So I used to do this all the time where I would self-sabotage. Because if I gave it my all and I was number two or number ten, anything less than number one is not good enough. Right? So number two, number ten, or heaven forbid I got a B and I tried my hardest, then I'm stupid.

43:37Raj Shamani:Yeah.

43:37Dr. K:But as long as I don't give it my best shot, then, oh, I'm lazy, but I'm brilliant. I'm one of these brilliant people. I'm cursed with laziness. But I get some preservation of my ego there, right? So as long as I self-sabotage myself, there's always the possibility of being the best. I just need to figure out how to do motivation and build the right habits and eat the right things. And if I can figure everything out, then I'm going to be number one. But I don't ever really want to test myself. Does that kind of make sense? Yeah, it does. So a couple of things to understand. One is that negative emotions are very powerful motivators.

44:13Dr. K:Then we, people like you, get into this trap where your negative motivation, like I asked you, is sad bad? And then, so everyone was like, oh yeah, I've been invisible too. Then you said sad isn't bad. Sad is good. That's where everyone, most people are going to be left behind, right? Because for them, sad is bad. But you realize that, okay, sad is my motivation. Now you're stuck. You're screwed, bro. because if you stop being sad, right, why aren't you content? If I offered you contentment, you wouldn't even take it. True. Sad becomes your fuel. Insecurity becomes your fuel. True. So there's even great science behind this.

44:52Dr. K:So if you look at medical students, they're very highly neurotic. So neurotic means they have a tendency to worry. And so when you and I are chilling, or maybe not you, when I'm chilling, you know, like I'm chilling on a Friday and medical students are at the library because they're afraid they're going to fail even though they're already at the top of the class. So like our negative emotions are incredibly powerful motivators. And if you've struggled with negative emotion, you know that, right? You know how hard it is to do the opposite of what the negative emotion is telling you. I can be excited.

45:32Dr. K:Hey, Roger, I have this dream. I'm going to write a screenplay one day. I'm so excited. I'm so curious. I'll watch some Netflix. That's easy to do. But when my fear and my anxiety is saying, oh my God, these people don't like you. Don't leave the house. Everyone thinks you're pathetic. You're third in the class. You're a loser. It's hard to overcome that. It's hard to overcome sadness. And then a lot of people who are really successful, what they do is they reinforce this mechanism. Because this is the mechanism that's responsible for their success. So the moment you become content, you're going to start shrinking.

46:07Dr. K:Someone's going to – this is going to be really scary for you, right? You know what's worse? When you stop moving up every year. Because you're going to be higher than 76, right? Yeah, absolutely. But one year, someone else is going to start growing faster than you are. And then you can give me a call. Once you've really lost, then we'll teach you how to be happy. Because at that point, it's kind of game over anyway.

46:31Raj Shamani:But this is so true. What you just pointed out in the middle of things, like, insecurity is my fuel. I have genuinely never forget been able to I've never even tried of course not to feel secure yeah like I I love being inferior insecure because then that is like somewhat my feeling and I the moment I outgrow a room I stop hanging out there because I feel a little powerful and I'm like uh uh I want to be insecure amongst the sharks and I still want to be the small fish so that there's some kind of joy in killing that insecurity and becoming a better person.

47:19Dr. K:There's joy in killing it, but you keep wanting it. Yeah. Right? So let's understand how that works. So what you're doing is trying to solve that wound of the invisibility. You're trying to like make up for the past with the present. I don't know if that makes sense. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? So you're like, Like in that it's kind of weird, but like you're kind of. There was a hole that was dug in you like 20 years ago and you're trying to fill it today, but it doesn't work. And then you're also attached to it because now you're like, OK, well, this like those guys were number one, two and three.

47:54Dr. K:How many millions of subscribers do they have now, Raj? Right. And so now now you're you're stuck. You're really like you're in a tough spot, bro. because now it's like either you choose contentment or success.

48:06Raj Shamani:Yeah. I choose success.

48:08Dr. K:You have and you will. Right. The sad thing is that you don't have to choose between the two. You can get both. But.

48:16Raj Shamani:This is the day I'll call you.

48:22Raj Shamani:Let's take this conversation towards the rise of Indians and the fall of it as well. Like two things because you're an Indian in US. Yeah. Right. There are two things which are happening right now. I'll talk about the, I'll ask you what positive and why it's happening. And then I'll ask you about the negative as well. Okay. Right. All around the world, Indian leadership is killing it right now. Yeah. Like there's somehow, somewhere, something is happening for us, which is right. That almost every large company has an Indian leader. So Indian people are just liking Indian talent. And on an average, the highest number of average income for an ethnicity, which is the highest in America, is also of Indians, right?

49:06Raj Shamani:So Indians are the highest in America. Indians are leading all around the world. What's happening? Why all of a sudden Indian CEOs have some level of advantage that they're able to lead those companies at all? So a quick story.

49:19Dr. K:So I walked into my orientation at Harvard Medical School. And like 30 to 40 percent of the room was Indian. or South Asian, 30 % to 40 % of the room was East Asian. And then the other third was like everything else. And I was like, this is insane. I sat between two thises.

49:41Raj Shamani:It's like very weird.

49:43Dr. K:So there's absolutely something going on. So if something is going on, there must be a scientific, you could do something like a logistic regression analysis and try to figure it out. I think we have a lot of advantages. So I think that one thing is that there's like a selection bias. Indians aren't the only ones, but I think you can look at like Nigerians is another example that people don't they're kind of people are sleeping on. But so I think the there's a lot of brain drain. Right. So if you look at like my parents were both doctors. and so I grew up with certain financial advantages where like I could afford to apply to medical school for three I didn't I didn't get accepted to medical school school for two years I applied 120 times got accepted finally with number 120 but just if you look at the amount of money it takes to do that to survive for three years and just keep applying to medical school like not many people can do that yeah so I think one of the reason that you see so many successful indians in america is because they just have financial advantages right so like like who goes to like all of my kids friends their parents like who came from india like all went to iit right so there's there's just a real financial advantage yeah i think there's also a cultural advantage so uh you know my dad was like poor like like you know he his parents were in debt my grandmother would tell me stories about how this is something that like my children will never understand.

51:13Dr. K:I don't even understand. So they would run out of like sugar on the 25th of the month and they don't get more money until like later. And there was like rationing and stuff like that in India. And so, you know, this concept of like in my house, when you run out of sugar, you go to the store and you buy more. Like that was just not a thing. Like even when you went to the store, there was rationing. So you couldn't buy more. And so they would do things like hide sugar in certain places and just stuff like that, right? So my dad, you know, there were eight of them that slept in like an eight foot by 10 foot thing.

51:47Dr. K:And then at nighttime, like half the people would go and sleep in the stairway and things like just crazy things. So I think especially for second or first generation immigrants who go to America, education was survival, right? Right. So if you look at the second generation, we're like, why won't you let me study art? Like, I want to be an artist, dad. Oh, my God. Like, let me just study art. Oh, my God. I'm trying to express my true self. And you just want me to be like this robot and become an engineer or a doctor. I don't want to do that, bro. I want to be myself and self-expression. And I love the world.

52:26Dr. K:And the world is like capitalism so bad. And oh, my God. They don't understand like the pile of like luxury that affords them that opportunity. So when I was like nine years old, you know, my dad pulls me aside. It's me and my brother. My brother's 12. He's like, one of y 'all is going to be a doctor and one of y 'all is going to be a lawyer. That's just what it was. And so I think a lot of us are – and it's kind of an interesting – so I think Indians are lucky because we're like very loving. So there's a lot of like scientific advantages that we have. We have like close-knit family systems. Generally speaking, we're not like abusive.

53:00Dr. K:A lot of us have a lot of like spiritual like background and grounding, which I think is like pretty good. Like Mormon people also are like median income is like super good. So there's like some positive effects of that. And I think it's just the right set of things.

53:15Dr. K:That's my guess. The other thing is that, you know, if you look at like the statistics of it, there's 1.4 billion. So that pool is pretty big. So if you take the top 1 % of 1.4 billion people of an ethnicity and then you like send them to America, like what are their kids going to do when they have all the financial advantages, when they have these cultural advantages, when they're the top 1 % of 1.4 billion, which is different from the top one. I mean, Europe has like 400 million people in it. You can take the top 1 % of Europe and it'll be like – it's just that it's also a numbers game.

53:52Raj Shamani:Do you feel it's good or bad that Indian parents, they force their kids to choose a certain kind of career and they constantly keep comparing them to others? It's good and bad. There's no or. Everything's and. Right?

54:09Dr. K:So here's the thing to understand. This is like, I don't like this way of thinking. Like, not there's anything. I mean, there's a lot wrong with it, but I don't blame anyone for thinking because this is how humans naturally think. So a big part of I think like personal development is training yourself to think in unnatural ways because our natural way of thinking is what biology is for. And evolution does not select for happiness. It selects for survival. So the people whose genes are getting passed down are not the people who are like waiting until they can afford to have kids. They're the people who are having nine kids.

54:43Dr. K:Like that's what – those are the genes that are getting passed down, right? Right. So and so we have an interesting problem as humans, because like a lot of if we want to be happy, then we have to go against a lot of our programming. So I don't think and what the reason I kind of mentioned that tangent is because this idea of is it good or bad? That kind of black and white thinking is very biological. But that's not what reality is, even though it's biological. We think about things as good or bad. Right. So I think it's both good and bad. So I think this is where I have kind of like this detached like Vairagya kind of perspective, which is like it is what it is.

55:21Dr. K:So it has certain effects. Then you decide if you want those or not. Right. So on the one hand, it clearly pushes us to be financially secure, but it comes at like a price, which is usually like peace, contentment, this kind of stuff. Like I'm sure your parents are really proud of you now. Right. Right. But it's like it it hurts. Oh, I mean, I don't know about your parents. It sounds like your parents were pretty good, but it hurts that I'm sure all of your your uncles are proud of you now. Not to talk crap about them, but it hurts that they recognize you after you've done this and they didn't recognize you when you were a no one.

56:01Dr. K:Right. And I think it's like tricky because. you know i was stunned by how i know all this stuff but like as a parent how i'm like i'm a classic indian parent man my kid came home with a b she's nine

56:15Raj Shamani:and i was like this is unacceptable are you reading that yeah and i was like oh my god this is like

56:22Dr. K:baked in it's like in my conditioning because i really know she's capable of more right like i know she can be better and then my wife and her like okay the school isn't good enough they're not pushing her harder. She's being pushed. So I'm going to just, the generation of the trauma is going to continue to get inherited. I think it's a little bit different. We try to do the best that we can. But I think one of the things I've learned as a parent is every parent messes up their child. You just mess them up in a new way. I'm not going to mess them up in the way that my parents did. I'm going to mess them up in my own way.

56:56Dr. K:But my parents did the best that they could. I'm going to do the best that I can. And it's going to mess people up. That's why the cool thing. See, you're broken on the inside. You're successful on the outside. But the cool thing is at some point you become an adult. And at some point you get to determine what kind of life you want to live. Are you stricter with your kids more than your parents? In some ways, yes. And in some ways, no. Give me an example. So my parents weren't, they were really strict with me, but very inconsistent. So my dad would work a lot. He'd leave the house at nine in the morning.

57:24Dr. K:He'd come back at anywhere between 10 and midnight, like every day. So they would tell me like no video games, but they just weren't around. So I would like, like when the garage door opens, I'd turn off the video game, turn off the monitor, not turn off the computer because it's paused. You know, you got to finish it, turn off the TV, but the Nintendo salon and then I'd pretend to study. So, so I was just, you know, I would, so they were like really strict, but like very inconsistent reinforcement. Okay. So I'm like on top of my kids. So I'm deceptive. I mean, I was very deceptive as a child.

57:55Dr. K:And so even now I'm still deceptive. And so I know. So, but I'm also a little bit different. So I'm more strict in some ways. I'm more involved, but I'm also like more, I'm also more, I'm different in some ways too. So I'll also be more indulgent. Like, so sometimes, you know, it's like, like they've just have basically one rule. Like, even if you want to do video games in the morning, like that's okay on a Saturday, you just need to have breakfast and brush your teeth and get dressed. Like that's the minimum. No screens before you do that. And so I'm more indulgent with them as well. And I'm more strict in some ways.

58:32Dr. K:And I'm more like lax. Like, so my, you know, my daughter, the main thing that I want her to be is the best.

58:37Raj Shamani:Yeah. That's it. Yeah.

58:38Dr. K:I'm not asking for much. She doesn't need to be a doctor. She doesn't need to be an engineer. She just needs to be the best. In whatever she does. Absolutely. Right. Freedom. Just be number one. That's all I'm asking. Right. Is that too much to ask Raj? I'm not telling her she needs to be the best. You're just like my dad. It's okay. Yeah. Right. So my dad was like doctor and lawyer and I'm doing better than that. You just need to be number one. That's it.

59:01Raj Shamani:That's it. Easy. My dad is the same.

59:03Dr. K:Yeah.

59:03Raj Shamani:Like just be number one in whatever you choose. Yeah, absolutely. Just be the best. We don't care what. You know, you said that everyone messes up their kids. Yeah. But everybody messes up in new ways. Yeah. And parents who mess up more, their kids, there are enough researchers that their kids develop dark triad traits.

59:23Dr. K:Okay.

59:24Raj Shamani:In them. and those traits are usually seen in super successful people as well. Sure, yeah. Do you think dark triad traits are some way proportionate to the amount of wealth somebody will accumulate in their life? Yes and no.

59:39Dr. K:Okay, so this is where we gotta be specific, okay? So when you look at populations, that's different from looking at an individual. So I'll give you a simple example of this. Surgeons and psychiatrists test very highly on the sociopathy scale. So I test highly on the sociopathy scale. And so one time I had a really brilliant like attending physician. So when you're in training as a resident, so I was a second year resident. So I was in my second year of psychiatry training. And the thing is like, I'm being trained by psychiatrists and I'm pretty good at fooling most of them. But one of them was like, some of them figured me out and I'm not like evil, I'm just sociopathic and there's a difference.

1:00:23Dr. K:Okay. My wife is going to love that. So let's understand what sociopathy is. So actually, I'll start with this story and then I'll explain what sociopathy is. But she said, you know, she's like, I can tell it's been an absolute pleasure working with you. You're smart. The patients love you. I enjoy working with you every day. And make sure you use that power for good and not evil. That was her feedback to me. So she's like, you're really good at getting people to like you. You can make people laugh. You can give people what they want. So just use that power for good. And I took that really seriously.

1:00:58Dr. K:So like part of, you know, I'm kind of, I don't know if this makes sense. Everyone thinks like I'm a good guy. I'm really not. And I try to tell your team I'm just like an ordinary person and like they were not having it. But I have a lot of negative tendencies within me that I very intentionally try to like move away from. So what is sociopathy? Sociopathy is the – so a sociopath is someone who is so high on the sociopathy scale that it like really impairs their function. But one feature of sociopathy is a lack of empathy. So when you have a sociopath, they can hurt people and they feel nothing.

1:01:39Dr. K:The reason that psychiatrists have to be sociopathic is I have to be able to sit with someone who's suicidal and hopeless and depressed and not absorb that. I have to put up a wall of empathy and I can turn it on and off like a valve. So I've trained myself to like be more empathic. Having kids was a big part of that. So it's not that I'm evil, but sociopathy is really common. Like a surgeon has to cut into another human being and not feel bad about it, right? Which sounds kind of weird, but like makes sense. So there are absolutely these kinds of traits where if you kind of think about like, you know, like having to fire people.

1:02:26If you can't fire people effectively, then you're going to – it's really hard to run a successful business.

1:02:33Dr. K:So being able to fire someone, and it's not even that firing someone is like evil. People may perceive it that way, especially if they're the ones getting fired. It's a necessity for a successful business, right? And so there are a lot of those traits that I think we see that lead to success. And this is also where you have to be broken in the right way. Like, you know, there are some very narcissistic people who are very, very successful.

1:03:01Raj Shamani:Yeah.

1:03:01Dr. K:I think the tricky thing is that even though you can take this subset of people who are really successful and they test highly in like let's say narcissism or sociopathy, this is where we got to be careful.

1:03:19There's another question you can ask and this is like a bit technical but a high percentage of CEOs may be narcissistic or sociopathic.

1:03:29Dr. K:But what percentage of what is the median income of people who are narcissistic versus people who are not narcissistic? That may actually be lower. Does that make sense? Yeah. So the average narcissistic person may do worse in life because a question follows from your question, which is, do I need to be more of an asshole to be successful? And that's what a lot of people think, especially in like dating. Right. Oh, like nice guys finish last. Right. So I need to be an asshole. But look at the average asshole. How well do they do in dating? And look at someone – nice is a different word. There's a subtlety there.

1:04:04Dr. K:Look at someone who's kind. That's not the same as nice. What's the difference between nice and kind? What do you think? Wow.

1:04:14Raj Shamani:Nice and kind. Okay.

1:04:19Raj Shamani:I think a nice person is even when you're wrong, I'm just going to be nice to you and not point out that bullshit. And a kind person will point out that bullshit in a subtle way, but help you out because they're kind to you.

1:04:37Dr. K:Yeah. So I think I'm going to modify it a little bit, but I think you got the essence of it. A kind person is authentic. A nice person is not. I'm being nice, but I'm not kind. Kind is like on the inside. Nice is on the outside. So this is why a lot of people think nice guys finish last. They do sort of finish last. And the reason for that is because they're not actually kind. And women detect it. they pretend to be kind that's what nice is and then eventually what happens is you get your your you know your so i mean i work with a lot of young men and so i know this is a tangent but you know like some young men will try to be really nice because they like a girl and they'll do a lot of nice stuff for her and then she thinks that we're friends and then they get really upset when she won't engage with them physically.

1:05:30Dr. K:Like I do all this stuff for you. Why don't you do this for me? So in their mind, they're keeping this tally of like what you owe me. And at some point, picking you up from the airport like six times and like helping you deal with this breakup, at some point that entitles me to a physical relationship. That's nice.

1:05:49Raj Shamani:It's not kind, right?

1:05:51Dr. K:So going back to the CEO thing. And so I think that there are some situations where absolutely you can make an argument that sociopathy and narcissism will help people become successful. But that doesn't mean that the average sociopath or narcissist is doing well. Does that kind of make sense? Yeah, it does. There's a very important distinction there, which is, yeah, so I'm glad that makes sense.

1:06:17Raj Shamani:It does. You know, I'll ask you a question and then we'll move exactly from this thread to the dating world. Okay. Like it's a beautiful bridge, right? You said that, do I need to be an asshole in order to win, right? A lot of people think about that. There's a saying in a small group amongst a lot of really ultra successful entrepreneurs that I know, that they say that soul founders win. Yeah. Okay, and it's almost a thing. So a lot of young founders, they try to be an asshole even when they're not. Yep. because they think that oh you know what steve job stories he was so or like elon musk stories and he wasn't like they would just point out people and stories from their life when they were souls because those get more glorified in the world and i asked this to almost every ultra successful entrepreneur and they would deny but then if i asked them one question deep about maybe firing someone or doing something really just narcissistic or like something very they would they would not shy away by tell about telling them that yeah this is it so do you think

1:07:32Dr. K:that soul people win in life no so that it's the same distinction okay so let's understand so this this is something called is the problem is is selection bias and retrospective data analysis OK, I know. So we have to understand both like, yeah, the quantitative statistics and stuff like that is what you learn as a doctor. So there is a difference between. Oh, so a great example of this is.

1:08:03Dr. K:OK, let me ask you this.

1:08:08Dr. K:if i take a bunch of people who won the lottery and i ask if i if i say like okay look at all these lottery winners they all bought lottery tickets should i buy lottery tickets of course right doesn't that mean i'm gonna win the lottery no it's like that so we can take a subset of people who is really successful, but we're not looking at the millions of people who employ that strategy who fail. There's a huge selection bias, right? So, I don't think you need to be an asshole. And there's another level of selection bias, which you kind of talked about, which is that most people who, the internet loves this idea.

1:08:51Dr. K:Because we don't like these people because they have so much money. So, the idea that there's got to be, they have to be assholes, right? Like they can't be nice too. Like, come on. Like they're nice like me and they're successful. So like you can look at people like, you know, I think Warren Buffett is like supposedly a pretty nice guy.

1:09:13Raj Shamani:Yeah, super nice guy.

1:09:14Dr. K:You know who Gabe Newell is?

1:09:15Raj Shamani:No.

1:09:16Dr. K:Super nice guy. So he's the founder of Steam. Do you know what Steam is? He's like one of the co-founders, like one of the richest dudes. He just sits there and like does nothing and just buys$500 billion yachts or whatever. Right? And he's not – like his – like Steam is a very – Valve is a very fascinating company and the way it's run. You have no job description. Like their average – the average pay is like over a million dollars. Like it's just – they're just printing money and they build amazing products. And the culture there is a little bit weird but like you have no job description. They don't hire people to do jobs.

1:09:52Dr. K:You just – they hire really great talent. They just let you do what you want. Right? So I think that just because there are a lot of people who are a particular way and you can absolutely make the argument. I think you'd have to do real research, though. You'd have to look at like, you know, the top 100 companies measure the degree of sociopathy. And you may find that there's some degree of sociopathy because people have to you have to fire people and you have to learn how to let go and things like that. I think there's a certain amount of that. That's true. But that's very different from looking at lottery winning winners.

1:10:21Dr. K:And then if I'm sitting there at the bottom, like, let me buy lottery tickets. It doesn't work well. Yeah. Right. So the majority of people who employ the strategy do not do well. You just never hear about them. You just hear about these incredible outliers. And then people try to understand that. The other element of this is I think the reason that being an asshole is so attractive to people, the reason people try to do it is because there are parts of them that get taken advantage of that being an asshole would fix. So if I'm like kind, right? And if I'm like a dude and like I'm – my best friend has been dumped by another guy who said that he was going to marry her and he didn't.

1:11:02Dr. K:And then my friend comes to me and she cries on my shoulder. And this happens six times. I'm nice and all these other people are assholes. And so you get taken advantage of, right? Like, oh, like I'm nice. And when my work colleague needs help, I say yes. But this other person is selfish and they say no. And then now I'm busy on the, like I'm helping them over the weekend. And then, you know, so people will turn themselves into an asshole because they can't control other parts of themselves. So being an asshole is an antidote from being unable to say no. Fear of disappointment, right? So if I'm afraid of disappointing you, I'm never gonna say no.

1:11:43Dr. K:And what I really need to do is be an asshole because that'll help me overcome my fear of disappointment. But it doesn't actually deal with the root of the problem. It's just like a compensatory strategy. Does that make sense? Yeah. So I think there's a lot of attraction to being an asshole. But usually, I tend to think that on average, and I could be wrong, but I can make a pretty good argument for like being a good, compassionate human being. You know, we talk about some of the stuff like dharma. So like, you know, I'm pretty successful, but I don't try to be successful. I work hard. I work a lot, but I'm not, I don't really have much personal ambition, at least in the material world.

1:12:24Dr. K:Like I'm pretty chill. I get to hang out. I mean, I like money, but, you know, I basically have sufficient, I play video games for fun and I spend time with my kids and I, you know, hang out with my wife and she likes nice things but I don't like nice things. So that works out because then she gets my budget and then she's happy so we don't actually need as much. You know, I play this game called Dota 2 which is free and I've been playing it

1:12:48Raj Shamani:for like 13 years.

1:12:50Dr. K:So I think there are successful ways to do this stuff without going for that and you'll end up like, I'm doing okay. I'm not you. I'm not. Come on. I'm not.

1:13:01Raj Shamani:No, I'm sorry.

1:13:03Dr. K:I meant like in terms of success.

1:13:05Raj Shamani:Yeah, I don't think I am, I don't know, my team can tell me.

1:13:10Dr. K:So I meant to say that, you know, I'm not very ambitious, but you can be, you can do pretty well. Like I'm pretty happy with how far I've come. And I think a lot of people, and when I teach people this stuff, like they get pretty far. I don't know that they're going to get your level,

1:13:30Raj Shamani:you know, but they'll get pretty far. So tell me, just purely based on anecdotal observation. Okay. Right. I'm talking about top 0.01 % people.

1:13:44Dr. K:Okay.

1:13:44Raj Shamani:Are they more at the top 0.01 % or more empathetic people and really nice people?

1:13:52Dr. K:0.001. So let me think about sample size and let me just think about who have I worked with. so 0.001 is one out of 100 ,000, right? So someone who's in like top five in the game. I know, I'm thinking about everything

1:14:10Raj Shamani:from esports athletes to entrepreneurs, influencers. To podcasters. Yeah, yeah.

1:14:21Dr. K:I think the majority of people, I would say less asshole than more asshole, but there's a caveat there, which is selection bias, because the people who come to me sometimes are assholes, but they come to me because they're a little bit more open-minded. They're a little bit more cognitively flexible. I think the people who are more in the asshole category or like super narcissistic wouldn't come to me. But I think definitely a lot of them are kind. And then the other problem with this question is that I tend to see the good in people. Some of the people that I work with that I would not call an asshole, I'm pretty sure many of the people in their life would call them an asshole.

1:15:07Dr. K:So that's a pretty big bias too.

1:15:09Raj Shamani:Yeah. I think I have this little bias theory, which I believe in. I believe people who are at work they're really good at their homes in their personal life and people who are like a soul in their personal life are really good at like public pleasing at the work life right and and i've seen this this is just anecdotal yeah right observation which i'm sharing with you yeah i've seen this almost true with almost everybody who i know yeah who's at the top like they are like these amazing leaders everybody loved them they're public pleasers they are like just the most empathetic people they some of their employees feel like he's better or she's better than like a therapist like so good yeah yeah yeah and then their personal life they're shit they're terrible they are like these monstrous people who are like almost care about nothing and nobody and then there are people who are like darlings in their personal life amazing and at work they

1:16:09Dr. K:are like just like my way or highway yes i think i largely agree with that so let's understand why a little bit i mean i assume you're sharing that observation because you want yeah yeah yeah so i won't go into too much detail so as a psychiatrist i treat anybody and one of the most useful parts of my training is i spent three months working in a jail and sometimes I'll have patients who are like criminals. Like, and they can be, and maybe the best example of this, I won't go into too much detail, but if you look at like, you know, one of these shows that has like mob boss, right? They love their kids.

1:16:54Dr. K:And then they'll like be ordering hits at work, you know? So I think there's a certain element of that that's like absolutely true. Like I'm thinking about people that I've worked with that are like truly like sociopathic on like a different level and how nice they can be. Well, so there's different versions of this. They're not always sociopathic. Sometimes the ones, I've said sociopathic at home and at work. I've seen that. I've also seen not really sociopathic, but this is just the rules of the game at work and the rules of the game at home or you're on my team or you're not on my team. I love my children, but I will order a hit on someone.

1:17:34Raj Shamani:Yeah. You know, I've seen that too.

1:17:38Dr. K:I think that sometimes people are, you know, sometimes people will, this is a bit parasocial, but people will be like, Dr. K, will you adopt me? I wish I had a dad like Dr. K. And like, I think I'm a pretty good dad, but I'm not like the best dad. I'm way better as Dr. K. And like my kids, you know, here I am like, oh, Raj, I think you should do whatever makes you happy, bro. But when my kid gets a B, it's like, uh-uh. Right? All you have to be is the best. Yeah. So I think the other sad thing is that I think oftentimes people who really use a lot of cognitive load to be an inspiring leader every day at work takes a lot of neuro resources.

1:18:22Dr. K:So I think my family definitely gets the worst version of me. And that's really common. Right. So my family doesn't get Dr. K. They get all oak. And like, thank God for that. Like, I think if my family would be completely messed up if they got Dr. K. And I realized this some time ago that, you know, my kids don't need a sannyasi as a dad. That's not right. And so I don't like force meditation on them in a way that sometimes I wonder if I'm doing them a disservice. Because I'll see other dads that are like, you know, forcing meditation on their kids. So I kind of teach them what they're excited to learn.

1:18:59Dr. K:We do some amount of like stuff, but I think it's absolutely true that, you know, you put on a mask when you go to work and you take the mask that you go when you when you go home and take off the mask. And I think the real solution to that is to be authentic all throughout. If you're putting on a mask, it's got to come off. Yeah. So instead, change yourself to be like more authentic in both places. So don't try to be an inspiring leader, just be a regular human being, which once again, I was trying to explain to your team, like, I'm not that great. And they were like not having it, you know, and it's like, so so people will look up to you, right?

1:19:37Dr. K:So when you have a public persona, that's all they see. They don't see the, you know, when you get mad at the waitress, because you're croissant is toasted too much or whatever, right? Like, I don't do that, but I don't do that either. I've never done that. Yeah, I haven't done that either. But I do think that this kind of dichotomy is very common. And that's just a general principle. Psychologically, when you, see, anytime you take in a neutron and you split it into a positron, you always get an electron. And this is a really interesting thing that we've learned in psychology, where if you look at some of these new innovations in psychotherapy, like radical acceptance.

1:20:16Right?

1:20:16Dr. K:So, so this is kind of

1:20:17Raj Shamani:radical acceptance.

1:20:18Dr. K:So, so there used to be this idea, or there's a very common idea, like we were saying earlier, that sadness is bad, anger is bad. But now there's this new kind of perspective in psychology that nothing is bad. And so you like, it's okay to be angry, it's okay to be ashamed, it's okay to be pathetic and feel pathetic. So one of the things that, you know, made me a little bit internet famous is I'll say really mean things to people like to their face and they're okay with it because there's authenticity behind I'm not saying I'm just making an observation that wow you like you really think you're pathetic and actually when I look at your life like you are

1:20:56Raj Shamani:pathetic like you've got nothing going for you and this is what's something people don't understand

1:21:01Dr. K:there's a lot of these you know toxic manosphere influencers there's one thing that they do really well. So if I'm a loser, he's like at home watching pornography all day, and I'm 25 years old, and I go out into the world, everyone will tell me, you're a man, you're privileged. Your life isn't that bad. What are you complaining about? There's one, and I feel pathetic. And then the other thing is that I'll go to my mom and my mom will be like, you're beautiful, you're great. You know, so people will tell me like, my life isn't like, I'm a good person. I'm not a loser. the toxic manosphere influencers will say yeah you are a loser here's how to change it yeah so one thing i've learned as a psychiatrist is if someone comes to me into my office it's a hard thing to learn and they say i'm suicidal and i want to kill myself the instinctive reaction is no there's so much to live for and the real the best reaction is a professional is help me understand why you think that way right and then what i discover is like with the person i talked about like an hour ago, you know, this dude who's a very successful banker who has a noose in his basement.

1:22:03Dr. K:And it's like, okay, like help me understand that. And to understand that human beings aren't stupid. And if he's got a noose in a basement and his life is so good, this is what people don't understand. There's got to be a really good reason, right? The gap between what you see and what there is, like if this person is really successful, that means they're carrying around a really deep negative weight. Does that kind of make sense? Because if you see them at positive 100 and they're suicidal at negative 100, there's a minus 200 swing there. And so really accepting that, understanding that, okay, like we're going to accept what you are, that can become very helpful.

1:22:42Raj Shamani:But that will require a lot of, not only individuals to change, but a lot of professionals to change, because not everybody can do this acceptance thing.

1:22:54Dr. K:Yeah, so this is kind of, you know, relating to this idea of like being one way at work and being one way at home. I think a big part of what acceptance teaches us is the value of authenticity, to stop being an actor and to be authentic. And so what I would say to people, and I know this is hard. You're right, it takes a lot of work. So, you know, if I dislike you, Raj, the answer to that for me is not to pretend to be nice. It's to work on my dislike, to genuinely stop disliking you. Right. That requires a lot of work. True. So don't fake it till you make it. Like really do that internal work.

1:23:35Dr. K:But it's so much easier to just pretend to be nice.

1:23:38Raj Shamani:you know and i was reading a research recently around this that a lot of families and partners get the worst of their partner yeah yeah absolutely because their partners are publicly active and then they're trying to be this really nice person outside so when they go home then they're tired they don't have social battery they don't want to do anything they just want to be the worst version of themselves and they're angry and annoyed and then irritated right and they do that and the research went on to say like one of the possible reasons for this is that because large majority of people as human beings love appreciation and admiration in whichever situation they get that more they start acting there more and then the other side they're just reducing their entire effort work so for example if an individual who's getting who did one good gesture at work and got really appreciated as a stranger would want to do 20 more gestures there versus when they come home and they do a small gesture probably their husband or their wife or their kid will be thinking oh that's just a family duty so it's nothing to be appreciated or celebrated so they just start reducing the effort which they put in the family Yeah, absolutely.

1:24:59Raj Shamani:It's just reward mechanism, which is changing their behavior.

1:25:02Dr. K:Yeah. So you're getting positive reinforcement in one place and you're not getting it in another. So that's absolutely the case. I think I also think kind of like you were saying, there's more to it. That's absolutely the case. This also, by the way, how people end up like in affairs. And so I think there's all kinds of factors about this. Now we can talk about falling in love in affairs and stuff, but I just wanted to close that out.

1:25:26Raj Shamani:So many questions on this. okay why at one side people are taking more risk in their personal lives than not so more and more people are switching jobs leaving certain type of cities countries more happy to move more happy to take entrepreneurial ventures more entrepreneurs more creators more people you know like they're more risk taking in their professional life but in the personal life it's really, really reducing.

1:25:54Dr. K:Yeah. So, so I, you know, it's interesting. I think it's not as much of a risk. So when you're saying people are taking risks, I think those risks were way bigger 30 years ago. So becoming a content creator today is not, I mean, there's a risk to it, but you can do it on the side. Like I did it on the side, right? I monkey branched that I had a job started to it. And then like when healthy gamer became the demands became so high, like that's when I quit. so i think i think entrepreneurship isn't the risk that it used to be because we have so many resources we have things like this podcast where like you can learn so much about yourself right and so that's part of it so i don't think it's as big of a risk as people say it is i mean and not to say that it isn't a risk i understand what you're trying to say yeah the other side of it is that i think the traditional path has gotten so like arbitraged out there's no arbitrage left so So the traditional path doesn't work anymore.

1:26:52Dr. K:Go to school, at least in the US. So we have to pay a lot of money for college. Go to school, get a job. You have a bunch of student loans. Median income has gone down. Or median income has stayed the same. Inflation has gone up. The basic problem in the world right now, the reason people are taking more risks is because playing it safe is the biggest risk you can take. True. And so we're forced out of desperation. You know, I always wonder about how penguins evolved. At some point, some bird was like, I'm done with flight. I'm just going to start swimming. Right. So what kind of desperation led to the evolution of a penguin?

1:27:32Dr. K:That's what we're seeing right now. We're seeing an entirely new organism, the influencer that has never existed in the history of humanity, which like looks like a human and talks like a human, but can't fly like a human and instead swims. What's your job? My job is to go to places, take pictures of food and eat it.

1:27:54Raj Shamani:What kind of job is this? Right?

1:27:59Dr. K:So I think people are forced into risks and risks have become more dangerous. So it's kind of, and especially on the personal life, Like it's like, you know, it used to be that when you had when you got married, a man could take care of you and you didn't need to work. So we had this division of labor because you could support a household on a single income that isn't there anymore. So what a lot of women are seeing is like, I have to work in order to make the household run. But I don't know if this dude is going to change diapers. And so like that's that's a real concern. Right. Especially if this person is anti-feminism.

1:28:41Dr. K:The economic situation has changed.

1:28:46Raj Shamani:I have a question on that. But we'll talk about influencer a little bit.

1:28:56Raj Shamani:Because, you know, when I study a lot of these influencers who just travel and go out and eat and take pictures and then just come back and then they make millions out of it. I think what they're doing is something really, really smart. Okay. And I'll tell you why. Knowingly or unknowingly, a lot of these people have figured out that majority of people live shit lives. Majority of people don't have enough money and they're bored to death. So they are giving a piece of fantasy land through their lens. Yeah. And that's why they're working. So they're doing like an important job and showing fantasy and dreams to people who probably can either not afford or giving them motivation to start working more so that they can afford at one point.

1:29:49Dr. K:I'm going to take that one step further in a scary way. The influencers used to give fantasy. What really is terrifying is if you look at the newest wave of influencers, I'm not going to name names, but I don't know if you've seen this. But what the newest wave of influencers is doing is not even fantasy. It's regular life. Yeah. They're doing like all these weird like regular things. they're like we're gonna run a race or i'm gonna drive a car or i'm gonna like it's just like regular stuff like i'm gonna go out and live life and i'm like kind of unprepared for it and weird stuff is gonna happen to me and people are now just they're not watching oh like an exceptional life they're just watching an ordinary life why do you think that's happening i think because people aren't living ordinary lives.

1:30:40Dr. K:So things have gotten so bad in society where an ordinary life has become the new fantasy. And I'm serious about that. Going on a date has become a fantasy. Like, think about that, man. Going out and having food with your friends has become a fantasy to like 25 % of people out there. Like the US, the last US Surgeon General released this bulletin about a loneliness epidemic. It's really scary. They're, you know, touch starvation. People don't get touch anymore. In the UK, there's a bunch of research on something called deaths of despair. This is like depression, alcohol, suicide, where it really roots back to like people aren't able to like live a life anymore.

1:31:34Dr. K:Like you can't live a regular life. It's like so hard. You know, what's wrong with these people? They're trying to live a life and they're not even given the basic of like human connection. Right? Because what's happened is we as a society have started to say like, no one's going to look out for me. I got to look out for myself. I deserve the best. We've stopped. Like who's responsible for helping me in cells? Nobody. So we've just abandoned our fellow human beings. True. And what do you think is a fix?

1:32:15Raj Shamani:We all have gotten more lonelier. There's a loneliness epidemic. More and more people are looking out for themselves, not for others. More and more people are getting selfish. and that's one of the reasons why they're facing a lot of mental health problems. So we know this now. What's the fix? So a couple of things.

1:32:38Dr. K:So the fix is once again, I want people to take one thing away from this podcast. It's like things are multifactorial. So I'll give you my fix. Okay. Okay. So the first is that I think the only shot you've got is the rest of the world is falling apart. AI is going to take your job. No one's going to have sex with you. You're not going to make money. You're going to spend all your time watching TikTok and jerk it off. This is the world that, this is what 20 % of 5 % of people's lives are.

1:33:14Raj Shamani:Thanks for motivating us. I know.

1:33:17Dr. K:Radical acceptance. Remember we talked about that. So here's the thing. The best thing, the thing that worked for me, because I was that person. And people think I'm special, but I'm not. I learned how I work. So you should be able to control yourself. Forget about the rest of the world. At a minimum, control yourself. And here's the cool thing. If you can control yourself, you can get really far. And you don't have to be like great. You don't have to be brilliant. It's like, just think about the bare minimum, right? So I'll give you a simple example. A lot of people think that they need to drastically change their life.

1:33:56Dr. K:They don't need to drastically change their life. They need to minimally change their life. So I started paying attention to something. So I used to be addicted to video games. I'm not addicted anymore. But I tried to figure out what is the cost of one hour of gaming. And so I did something really simple. I was just like, okay, I'm not going to start at 5 p.m. I'm going to go to the gym. And I'll start at 6. Instead of playing for four hours, I'll play for three. I noticed a couple of really important things. The first is that reducing your gaming from 20 hours a week to 18 hours a week is like basically no lost enjoyment.

1:34:40Dr. K:But elevating your exercise from zero hours a week to going to the gym twice a week transforms your life. So I think what a lot of people don't realize is that you can look at your life, which is absolute shit. Like you can work out zero hours a week. If you just work out two hours a week, you're not giving up a whole lot and you're actually getting a whole lot. And if you kind of think about like, let's say like working on your resume. Working on your resume for five hours every six months will drastically alter your life. Right? Just keeping it updated. I'm going to update my resume once a quarter.

1:35:22Dr. K:I'm going to spend one hour a quarter. And then when it comes time to apply for your job, oh my God, I have to update my resume. And so then you don't do it for three months. It's already updated. Just imagine how your life is. I don't know if you've ever applied for a job or when the last time you did it. But if it's already updated, it makes things so much easier. So what people don't realize, this is the biggest thing I've learned as a psychiatrist, is that if you have a gigantic problem, you don't need a gigantic solution. And if you think you need a gigantic solution, then you think, oh my God, I have to do so much.

1:35:51Dr. K:You need very little help. I think a good example of this is if you lift weights and you're on your last rep and you're pushing and the bar isn't sinking, but it's not going up. You just need one finger. That's really what people need. You need a very small change in your life and it'll have huge effects. So for me, that big thing, that little thing, I think it's a big thing. You don't need a whole lot of self-understanding, but self-understanding is great. Once you understand how you work, like you're going through life not knowing how to drive your car. Can you wake up when you want to wake up?

1:36:27Dr. K:Can you get your body to do what you want it to? Right? Once the gap between should and what you do is minimized, then your life becomes really easy. So for me, that's the fix. The problem is that that fix will be insufficient.

1:36:42Raj Shamani:Yeah. Yeah.

1:36:43Dr. K:Because getting someone to say yes to dating you is like that requires them. Right. So I think there's another element to understanding yourself, which is like sort of some of these things like spiritual detachment, all these kinds of you have to understand that you can only control yourself. You can't control the people around you. And so I think the fix is to start with you because I don't know that you can start with anything else, first of all. And I don't know that anyone else is going to fix those problems. And this is what really scares me. This is why I left Harvard and started streaming.

1:37:16Dr. K:Because my mentor said, you know, 10 years from now, you will be the world's expert in video game addiction. Here's the plan. We've got it all laid out for you. I want to go to the conversation of the beginning.

1:37:29Raj Shamani:Okay. Which was, and beginning, when I say beginning, it means the first time I saw you, okay, on internet, I was telling you about it. I saw your video. Okay. Which was about you keeping your legs up and then, you know, something about it. Yeah. What was that video? First you tell me like why, why do we, why is it a good feeling when we put our legs up? And what do we find good about it? And then what does it tell? Like, is it making us weak? Is it dropping our testosterone? So here's the thing. So if you look at just the mechanics of the body,

1:38:10Dr. K:this is physics, not even biology, really. If you want your spine to be erect, right? So when you have these like yogis, they're sitting in meditation for hours, if not days. So they need a posture where their spine stays erect, but does not require muscular support. so normally when we're erect we have to like use our muscles you have to you don't know you're not at rest yeah and in the spine straight so there's one really simple principle which has to do with center of gravity which is that if your knees are lower than your hips your spine will be erect and if your knees are higher than your hips your spine will be curved because your center of gravity will be here.

1:38:53Dr. K:So that may be there may be some part of that that's technically wrong, but it absolutely works on on the majority. Not on everybody, but I may have some of the explanation wrong. So in yoga, if you look at it, like, you know, we'll sit cross legged, and then you'll hunch over. So there are a couple of things that you can look at when people do, you know, meditation, they'll sit on a cushion. So you don't want to sit on a chair, but you want to elevate your hips. So you'll sit on a cushion under your butt and your knees will be down. And you'll notice that if you just sit on a small pillow, it's beautiful how you can do this.

1:39:27Dr. K:You can take a towel and you can fold it over once and you can sit on it. It feels a little bit straighter. You fold it over again, it feels even straighter. Fold it over again, it feels even straighter. So you can see how the more you change that axis, the more straight you sit. um so that's that was your yeah that yeah that's exactly what you were referring and then you can look at things like i don't know if you all are familiar with like padmasan or the padmasan right so lotus posture so that's where you sit with your feet on your thighs right it's like the classic meditative posture and if you look at it what's the difference between sitting regular cross-legged and padmasan it's your knees are going lower and why do people shake their legs without even

1:40:10Raj Shamani:constantly realizing it is there something going on so 10 of our calories get burned you just mean

1:40:15Dr. K:like this right where you shake your leg um there's different reasons for it so i know that like you know if you give people like stimulants they'll do it more but it's just a normal part of human

1:40:28Raj Shamani:biology so there's nothing nothing wrong about no not nothing wrong so so it can't be bad so in in

1:40:33Dr. K:you know really bad cases you you could have something like a tic disorder or restless leg syndrome but we basically know that most human beings 10 of their caloric energy gets spent in these repetitive movements not really clear why it happens um like that's also where you can go to like ayurveda and stuff and if you have like more vata in your body you'll be like more fidgety so i have a lot of vata which means i have a lot of like wind in my body whatever that means but i

1:41:02Raj Shamani:use my hands a lot when i talk so here's the last question which i wanted to be the first question But then now we have spent, I think, three, four hours together. And you know me. And you know where I pause, where I take questions. And if you have to look back and pause, because you've analyzed like a lot of people, what do you analyze about me?

1:41:25Dr. K:So the first thing is you asked me, the first question you asked me is what was my favorite podcast? And why, what made it great? So I now understand why you asked that question.

1:41:36Raj Shamani:Why? So you tell me why you asked that question.

1:41:41Dr. K:Because I wanted to learn. No. Okay, maybe.

1:41:46Raj Shamani:Why do you want to learn? Because I know somewhere someone is doing a really great job. Good. Which must have, because you go on so many podcasts, which must have stood out for you. So I want to learn that and recreate that experience and learn those things in my life.

1:42:01Dr. K:Why do you want to learn those things in your life?

1:42:04Raj Shamani:Because I want to be at the top.

1:42:05Dr. K:There we go. So I think this is the most important thing about you that you need to understand. I think that's such an innocent question. It's such a wholesome question. Hi, my name is Raj. I want to learn what was great for you because I want to learn that thing. And it comes across as innocent. It comes across as old. I'm not saying it's bad or anything. But I think you need to understand how much this drives and maybe you do, but I'm not sure you do, how much this drives every dimension of your life. And it's not good or bad. The scary thing, the thing that I think is bad, but even bad is not necessarily bad, okay, is that you're not in control of it.

1:43:00Right?

1:43:01Dr. K:So you want to learn, but like just – so I think the biggest thing you need to learn is like notice how much of your mental function comes from this root. And yet I would still encourage you to think about why is that? Right? Why are you so – why are you not satisfied with yourself? And there's a caveat there too, because I think if I were to ask you, are you satisfied in yourself? You'd say like, basically, yeah. Like I'm pretty happy with how I spend my days. I spend my days productively. I'm productive. My trajectory is good. I'm doing pretty well. So I know that, right? I know that you're not unhappy with yourself.

1:43:44Dr. K:That's why this is a subtle thing. So this is the hard thing is the further you go, the more subtle things get. The more that words are hard. It's like easy to get off track. So I know that you use your time productively. I know you don't beat yourself up. No. Right? And I know you don't care about validation. So those are like the common problems with people who are in your situation. But you don't have any of those problems. your but you're still your problem is a rag attachment there's something about this there's a gravitation to this that is pulling you true that's where there are a couple of things so it's possible this is a karma that needs to be completed and you're just drawn to complete this thing.

1:44:33Dr. K:Possible that this is a really potent opportunity for spiritual development because it's not one of the common problems. It's like, I don't know if this makes sense. It's so much harder to solve than insecurity. It's so much harder to solve than validation. And I'm not saying this to like stroke your ego. Oh, you have bigger problem, more great. It's not what it is. Right. But I genuinely think this. So that's tricky. And I'm not saying it's bad. I'm not saying you need to change it. But I think that. There's a layer. So right now you're just following this thing. If you understand this thing.

1:45:17Dr. K:You will feel amazing. You'll feel like you get it. What you're chasing, you will actually get. Because getting what you're chasing doesn't let you get it. You know what I mean? So that's where, and it doesn't need to happen soon, by the way. This is going to happen later for you. It's no rush.

1:45:38Raj Shamani:Interesting. Perfect. Thank you so much. Interesting way. Yeah.

1:45:44Dr. K:I don't get it, but I get it. I don't know how to say that. Yeah, so that's the weird. This stuff, you understand, right? But it's not, words can't capture it. So if I put it in words, it's going to be wrong. You don't need validation. You don't beat yourself up. There's nothing wrong. But you're missing something. And as you chase that thing, you don't find it. And that peace will come when you understand, oh my God, this is, oh my God, that's why I'm doing it. That's where this is coming from.

1:46:16Raj Shamani:Yeah, I actually don't know where it's coming from.

1:46:18Dr. K:Yeah, yeah. It'll be great when you figure it out.

1:46:20Raj Shamani:Yeah. How is India this time for you? It's great. I mean, I've been here for two days. And what change are you seeing here now?

1:46:27Dr. K:There's a lot more like intentional greenery. And then it seems like there's a lot of like coffee culture. Yeah. All of a sudden now. Yeah. And like in a very cool way. Yeah. So it's like my cousin took me to like a cafe where I got like a juice. I don't know.

1:46:44Raj Shamani:Or maybe Bhuji?

1:46:46Dr. K:Yeah.

1:46:46Raj Shamani:Thank you so much for watching the episode end to the end. Now you have to do three things. Number one, subscribe to this channel so that we have more valuable guests to bring you to this way. And we have questions to ask them what you want. Number two, tell me in comments that you have and who guests who want to see our podcast so that we have to ask them and ask them what you want. And number three, this episode you have to share with someone. which will change in life a positive change because one conversation is enough for someone's life change. I'll see you next time. Until then, keep figuring out.