Why the Rich Think Differently: Millionaire Mindset & Wealth Secrets - Kunal Shah |FO389 Raj Shamani

44:46And I think that, for example, we were thrown from our houses to a chawl. So I was the one who actually bought a house on home loan before I traveled abroad for a vacation. but the younger generation is doing the exact opposite because they have the support of somebody's house that they know at least my parents' house is there or I can go back to their house or whatever I didn't have any of that so I think sometimes not having anything long term forces you to become long term you said most of us who are driven they're escaping something were you escaping something? yeah escaping fear of being broke or poor poor see when you're also poor when you suddenly become poor in your family you will start seeing everybody distancing from you friends family nobody really wants to hang around with poor people especially if you have become poor through your own choices and like people try to keep you there but like you know that they don't like want to really hang with you and that drives you that okay you cannot be that right and you're escaping that in some ways but I think it becomes eventually the OCD that you want to continuously escape only right you're always thinking about I need to escape even more and further and further and further and it drives you so what is your fear today or what is escape what is something that you're escaping today I think my fear always remains in that if I don't understand things for me not understanding how things work and becoming better at things that I don't have an understanding of is what drives me fear of irrelevance what if I don't understand the younger generation right like what if I don't see what they're doing and understand their patterns for example how is AI going to shape our behaviors I'm very very interested in that right because this is the norm we not realize it but maybe a large majority of people already having some version of relationship with their AI.

46:59Yeah. And that shapes humans differently. For example, let's say you are a male or female and you have a more fulfilling relationship with your chat GPT. What if you find human relationships to be suboptimal? Highly possible. What will happen to human society then? Like if you don't think about these things, you're unlikely to do something about it or be aware of it before it happens see if you reduce if you have the mindset of having less and less surprises about life it will require you to constantly be aware about things but why is this need to understand this thing, why is this need to predict or try to find a problem which is not there yet but might become a problem what drives you to actually if people make AI I think what will you do with it for example can you build a business with it can you understand something can you create something for example when we made our ads for the first time and they broke the standard format of how ads were done and cred ads became the standard of doing things we realized that people were done with the same format of ads right and you had to do something that makes them come awake and notice and want to watch it without being interrupted and content versus ad, that mindset so you need to understand that the world is getting bored, right?

48:37For example I had written something multiple years ago that people will find it very hard to watch movies because they are addicted to short dopamine cycles now and I tweeted like many years ago that we almost feel like a meditation to watch a movie now, right? and to predict that trend and say what's going to happen right for example the new format of short drama is taking off right now it's nothing but people watching a movie with 25 breaks if you ask an average person how many times did you pause to finish a Netflix movie the answer may be 25-30 so there are any ways watching a movie like a short series yeah right to continuously watch without being distracted without being on your phone for two hours is getting harder almost impossible in fact I'm worried how movies are going to do well now because people find it very very hard in fact I know that multiple OTTs are telling content creators that please make content that people can watch along with being on their phone yeah so how do we make money from this now so I see movies becoming grander than it affords for you to pay attention so the movie budgets have to go crazier and you make a superhero movie and fantasy mythology movie and like you have to really raise the level a regular story that used to be big hits before unlikely to work now so you love to understand these patterns and make sense make sense of them and then make sense of them so maybe it will turn into an insight for you to build a business or it's just awareness about society and it gives you a kick that oh I understood it I understood it was a bigger kick if it was used then it will be a business but it's not that for example when we started our chat I was asking you about how you're doing things and not that I'm going to ever come and compete in the business but I have to understand how are you getting it right if you have managed to get from X amount of revenue to 1000x of that revenue right now what happened?

50:56what do people like? what do people share? what causes a reaction? what makes people come back again and again? what kind of people come? I have to understand and I do that not for you I will meet a musician and ask the same question I would ask Rahul Dravid the same question when I met him what are the new athletes all about? right and and uh and i'm i'm always asking on why people's world work the way they work yeah i remember you asked me first time as well why are you doing long term what will you do long term like all of these i remember yeah you do this do you think it's the primary trait or a fundamental trait for a lot of young people to become successful asking questions?

51:47No, I think understanding things is more important than asking questions. One method of understanding things is asking questions. There are other ways to do that. For example, now, ChatGPT is a much more efficient method to understand things and your medium of understanding things may be that. But sometimes counter questioning, for example, there are different ways to use ChatGPT. For example, if I ask JGPD that please rate me on 10 on the quality of questions I've asked you so far amongst all the people. Most likely it will tell you, you're amazing. But if I asked, can you tell me what are the five ways I can ask better questions compared to the top 1 % users on this platform?

52:40Help me identify the gaps. much better answer one is validation seeking second is feedback seeking growth seeking blind spot seeking it's extraordinary blind spot seeking for example if you meet somebody for an interview and you convince them that I would like to record this interview for my own learning and record the whole thing and ask the AI that what are the 10 things I sucked at it might tell you you have this anxiety to answer quickly which you will not observe in yourself I believe every single person should have an AI auditor of their behavior consistently wow imagine a coach imagine you have a 400 IQ tool in your pocket and we are fixing grammar

53:50how do you use it give me one example this is one example something that helped you something that gave you feedback and you fixed on it all the time observing my interviews I'll say did I do a good job of interviewing did I actually ask the right questions did I listen to the candidate or interpret them too much job interview yeah when I'm interviewing people then I've asked to observe something that I've written as a strategy and say what are the things that I've not thought about

54:32I've used it in manners where I've said that I'm let's say I'm this MBTI I'm ADD can you convert this document for somebody who's this MBTI and this ADD and make me readable for me amazing it makes it exciting for you to read the same document nice can I have done things where I would have a hypothesis and put the hypothesis out there for example I'll tell you one recent example I had a feeling that all the countries that had extreme weather became great at planning and people who do not have extreme weather are not good at planning because extreme weather forces you to have long term thinking right what do you want to keep food?

55:28what do you want to keep snow today? so do you want to plan it? countries with extreme weather they don't think everything then I noticed that those countries also have a very unique trait of not wearing wide range of colors. So people with extreme countries, extreme weather do not have very colorful color palette in their clothes.

55:54So when you go to countries, let's say Russia, you will see like only six shades. But if you go to a place in Gujarat, vibrant colors, in their shirts and and then I noticed that further that they are also less likely to be emotionally expressive countries with extreme weather and people who have less colors and so I made this compound hypothesis and put it out there and chat GPT can you rate this on 10 and tell me five ways this may be wrong then it helped me sharpen this is looking like 8 on 10 2 on 10 is not that because this is the three example that here it is extreme weather but how many colors are wearing planning and then I made one more hypothesis that it also makes them more wealthier so high per capita comes from countries who are better at planning interesting but in the past per capita income was higher in countries which were more resourceful and had less extreme weather So if you go back in history, all the countries with less extreme weather were more prosperous because that causes the agricultural yield to be better.

57:15And all the technological innovation and innovation which drives planning and efficiency came in countries with extreme weather. Long term was that short? and what I noticed is that many languages of countries with non-extreme weather does not have the word efficiency in their language give me an example which country all the countries which are not extreme weather one example put it out many Asian countries does not have word efficiency does not exist in their language in Hindi

58:00and there's a human thing that we only act or feel a word when we know the word or it exists in our vocabulary

58:13very interesting this is how you use chat GB wow I'm impressed this is so cool I'm gonna do that pretty sorted okay coming back to the conversation of we were talking about short-term long-term escapism fear right i want to ask you is there because you're talking also about wealthy countries and whether extreme countries and all of these combinations it's just a very basic question which is coming out of my head it's like why do you think most people they work really really hard in whatever country they are still they remain poor it's a great question

59:09I think the frame to apply is what does your work solve? Right? If I'm a surgeon that is extraordinarily doing bypass surgery I work for a few hours and I make a lot of money. Because the problem I solve is almost life and death. Yeah. With a very high chance of somebody dying. But let's say I did some work which does not solve a large problem. In fact, it can be a big problem. Then it's unlikely to create more wealth.

1:00:01So, what does it solve? And what do people value at? For example, let's say both of us get together and build a company that's going to solve

1:00:19the height of children will increase 3-4 inches in a healthy manner we found a technology or a medication or some Ayurvedic medication which happens we will become very wealthy very very wealthy because it's a problem that people care a lot about

1:00:44but let's say we build something that is by the way we will become very wealthy but very hard problem sometimes we'll have to give 15-20 years with no chance of success to solve that problem to solve this problem and therefore it will not achieve anything but let's say you are doing a lot of hard work and I don't know

1:01:17providing XYZ service that and you could be easily replaced nobody cares right

1:01:30you will not be able to make more money like that hours are coming right

1:01:43and therefore it's about what comes out of that achievement for example software engineering was very hard to learn and made a lot of money a lot of people did software engineering because of that but let's say if AI comes around and makes the top software engineer 10x more productive which means they don't need as many people that profession may not make the same amount of money but for some people it makes them crazy amount of money same thing for doctors some doctors will become 10x

1:02:17using AI right so we have to think that way if hard work resulted in stuff right for example let's say let's talk about your podcast right a lot of people are doing it Exactly. In fact, I firmly believe there are more people building podcasts than listening to podcasts. It's a joke. I do believe that because it almost feels like a good status thing to do. Right.

1:02:50But what you do to get you to the top 50 in the world is very different. Right. Nobody knows exactly what are the things that you do. And sometimes you can't even explain.

1:03:09If you ever started a course on how to build successful podcasts, I can tell you it will not be successful. Because you can't even explain many things that you've internalized in yourself. For example, I invest in startups. I start I write a book on how to pick good ideas to invest in I will not be able to explain it why? it's so internalized that you don't even know what the lessons are so how can somebody build this? how can they learn constant iteration think of yourself as an app okay? if you are an app apps have two things features and bugs you have to enhance the features that people feel good so it's good and good it's not good it's not good it's fix it it's remove bugs and release when you release the app there will be new features and new bugs you made a list and fixed it which is successful their cycle of releasing the apps is much faster but isn't it driven out of public validation not really it's about truth seeking on what is causing what how do you differentiate between truth seeking and validation because let's say you are an app for example if you ask people do you want to be healthy 100 and 100 yes are you doing something about being healthy 100 and 100 actually see that there is no one doing anything so you have to look at data and instincts because so many health startups fail because no motivation will be there.

1:04:57See, wealth happens when you take something that people are truly motivated by and make it easy to do. Okay? Wealth gets destroyed when you keep making something easy that nobody cares about.

1:05:19And that's the thing. So most people remain poor because they are a not working on making themselves irreplaceable and b they are not creating something so valuable which a lot of people are motivated to get easily or will pay a lot for how much would you pay for a a health situation of your family member improving versus couriering from Bombay to Bangalore. So there's a range. Huge difference. There's a range. Think about human motivation as some Gangotri. At the core where you start Gangotri it's basically simple. We want health, prosperity, status for ourselves and our family members. All the things we do can be answered in this.

1:06:16yeah okay after that the river growing up something else is growing up and more and more right and businesses are nothing but building dams on each of these streams sometimes the stream is small sometimes the river is bigger sometimes you are building at Gangotri for example when I told you about the height thing then Gangotri dams straight big problem yeah so it will become a lot of money but some people regular work and all people win there and they end up making shit tons of money not necessarily they might find a very differentiated thing to do within that right for example nobody is caring about that sector let's say you are I don't know becoming extraordinary building avocado and nobody has figured it out yet and you are realizing it's a big trend you have started you become the 80 % market shareholder of avocado so it can be it's a regular avocado grow kar rahe kya is kheti kar rahe but kheti of a product that people are willing to pay higher price for in a way which makes you more money correct so it's it boils down to just what's your differentiator or what do people value what do people value and are they valuing it at that point of time or is likely to sustain for example let's say you do something that is a hype it will die away and how do you identify what's hype and what's something that's gonna stay forever because what are people doing it for temporarily demonstrating status or something that people will truly value for example we talked about Labubu as like a temporary way of showing that I am part of a unique status tribe or height which is a long term sustainable thing right health but again height is also status not necessarily it's going to be long term this will not be a long term thing because something else will become a trend height will not replace in the trend no I get that but what I mean the ultimate emotion which is getting solved is status ultimately everything is either of those three things I told you right it's some version of social status prosperity and personal well-being which is health so what's going to give you long term of this or short term of this that's the way to think about it but there are nuances to that for example let's say I built a lamp company right it gives a status in some ways but it makes me feel that I'm a unique person let's say I have a nice coaster over here it feels different so people say what a big person what a taste is this whatever but enough people will care about it right but if I was doing a bypass specialization less people will care about because not a everybody is going through that yeah so it's about multiplying the utility value of something and the audience size and their net worth to be able to afford it

1:09:18okay so this is basic that people need to understand another basic is a lot of people want to get rich a lot of people also admire and worship people with money but they secretly pray also for their downfall not everywhere most in i'm talking about let's say country like ours because you have also again some i think you've tweeted somewhere in india people are good to make people good so people are somewhere they worship rich people yet they're praying for the downfall or they enjoy the downfall why the thing is there are two ways there are two ways to achieve status right either I get ahead of someone or I wait for them to come to my level it's very simple right so when we see some people who look to be extraordinary to become ordinary like us it feels us it gives us a sense of relief that it's the same right for example we like to know gossip about their personal life so that we feel in fact a lot of successful people also demonstrate that I am like you so that you feel like oh man it's like you but why do they wait for them to fall or like at least find faults it's not about that it's just that you have to find something that gives you relief in some ways right you feel they are not special and it's okay.

1:11:00See, what I'm saying is that people who are trying to be successful don't care about these things. Right? If somebody has done something and achieved something and even if they become ultimate failures the lessons are still invaluable. So are you interested in lessons or not? Right? if you're interested only in their final status then we are less likely to be interested in the lessons of that which is the case in most of the yeah but we can shape that for example I've often mentioned that we built no successful documentaries or movies about successful achievers on what their journey was especially entrepreneurs right but we have movie about every scamster gangster all of that because it's exciting can we just make it more powerful by just demonstrating these stories right for example you feel lot more content about western entrepreneurs you will see story about everyone yeah and we read their autobiographies and all of that but here it is not and that often tells me that

1:12:18that this is not because maybe it is not the need now maybe we might change that right maybe someone like you will produce a movie and uh or make a documentary series and you might identify a new customer need that the current world is not identifying and create that because uh if that starts happening we will automatically get really uh changing on what we care about right we will care less about oh this guy up down whatever we just care about this is a good lesson for example if you read a story about how Spotify founder convinced music labels to join forces it's a great lesson what's the difference what's the difference the lesson was how did they solve a difficult problem

1:13:19because we are not we are more interested in content than being successful no so stories are more interesting why do you think it's like that because how are we respected in our community by being more interesting sometimes going back to the yeah we often call successful people sadhu aadmi hei hei pura time kam hei skohtao and somebody who comes and say oh Oh, I went on a date or this happened. I often wonder by the way, sometimes that who are in perpetual new relationships often are trying to be interesting sometimes. Because it's new content for their friends. You've also said somewhere, most Indians settle for average careers.

1:14:13Why? Why do you believe so? And why do you think Indians? I don't think I've said that we have settled for average careers. I think we settle for settling. I think what I mean by that is that we are thinking that we are settling. And it was the right decision at some point of time because we were very poor as a country and there was no stability in some way. Like we used to seek government jobs. We still do. Because they provided stability. Right? So, it made sense to chase settlement, settling. But as you look at the next generation, they are not choosing for settling because their family is settled.

1:15:00They are not worried about where will I have a place to stay. So, when basics are taken care of, we become slightly more ambitious. So, it's all right. So, you feel now it's changed. Do you think that's also, there's a flip side to it. a lot of entrepreneurs complain about it on the podcast also they've complained that a lot of young people because they don't care about settling they are so flirtatious with their careers they are not building their depth in any one field yeah see the thing is

1:15:36if you are not worried about how you will be taken care of long term it's okay to be short term about things. You are trying to jump between different things or whatever. So for example, younger generation is a lot more driven by short term approach to life because they have not seen anything long term. We've seen the average length of relationships also to come down. I often hear people saying that, oh, I was in this relationship for eight months. And somebody who came from my generation or one before that it will sound absurd if somebody says that so I think everybody's timeline has changed right and that is causing this thing of like what we feel of time right 8 months so I think that is changing and but if you think about career if you are not driven by oh my god I'm going to become useless and I'm going to have no money and no family to take care of actually if all these people who are flirtatious with their career if their parents threw them out of the house or told them you have no access to any of the money that they have made or their parents were short term and would out all their money you would automatically become more long term 100 % 100 % so they are they are they are able to afford being short term because some other people around them are being long term do you think that's what very common thing used to happen in the west no west getting people kids out at the age of 18 was exactly built for that reason right not just getting rid of them they were not just thrown out they were chopped off from all financially help should we do that should we kick our kids out I don't know what we want from life who decides that right or wrong I don't know if you want them to become extraordinarily successful yes you have to make them starve when I use the word starve it's metaphorical it's be deprived of support and resources safety net safety net safety net do not create always good athletes right like the fear of almost dying is what makes you really come alive yeah you use the word extraordinary you want them to become extraordinary then make them star how to become extraordinary if somebody who's watching this wants to become an extraordinary person first of all you shouldn't have time to watch this podcast

1:18:38but I think the point around any big achievement comes from overcoming many many obstacles overcoming many many obstacles is when you are putting yourself out there and when you are giving it hours, attention for example anybody who has built a great physique has not got it accidentally they were given extraordinary amount of attention thinking, obsession focus on food workout sleep like it's their being which gets into that particular thing anybody who's got to any version of success as an entrepreneur same anybody who's achieved any version of these things and they are putting themselves out there and getting out of comfort zone right see comfort zone is a very infertile land

1:19:42but it keeps you safe

1:19:47so if you want to be extraordinary just kill anything extraordinary anything like I'm not saying that you have to wealth is not the only metric I don't know extraordinary I mean anything anything but do you think that means it will require for you to just kill your comfort yeah it's impossible to be extraordinary in comfort zone. What's the truth about discipline and ambition? Because a lot of people want to be they think they're ambitious they say that they're ambitious I don't know if their actions match that or no. Mostly they don't. So what do people misunderstand about it? It's cool to say you're ambitious.

1:20:29Most ambitious people will never say they're ambitious. They're just doing stuff. Building stuff. They are just out there. They don't write all these tag words on their Twitter or Instagram or LinkedIn. They're just doing stuff. The need to put so many labels to who we are. But when you ask them, they say they're ambitious. No. Will they identify as an ambitious person? Yes. They're not trying to tell the world they're ambitious. like fill their Instagram bio and LinkedIn bio with all these fancy keywords what do you think people misunderstand about ambition and discipline no I think it's a it's a being it's what you are it's like it's not a thing that you can do on weakness

1:21:41do you think it's a trait or a skill or something that people can build can they turn themselves into an ambitious person or no I think though

1:21:55drives are very hard to get externally you can't get a drive from external purpose but I do feel that if you are around ambitious people and they are they feel the need to keep you around you will become more ambitious let me put it this way I think you can make somebody more ambitious okay I don't think you can make somebody ambitious hmm

1:22:23so you're saying people are born ambitious or maybe something has happened to them over the years a lot of people become ambitious later on in life when they can and completely bankrupt at 30. Then they get something and they or they have some major relationship issues and that makes sense. So some life event causes them to see people maintain their slope. Then something happens here, then there goes the person. Until they maintain their slope. Yeah. True. You also say that Indians are high on aspiration but low on trust. Why do you say so? I don't think I've said it the way you're saying it, but I think every human is aspirational.

1:23:10Because nobody's happy with what they have. Actually, happiness comes from absolutely wanting what you have. And progress comes from absolutely wanting what you don't have. Yeah. Okay. But when you think about trust, trust is a very complex thing, right? Trust comes from, like if you think about trust, it's more of a game theory problem where you could argue that it should benefit everybody to show good trustworthy behavior and then society becomes more trustworthy, right? For example,

1:23:59if the cost of being not trustworthy was very high in a country

1:24:07then a lot of people will be trustworthy right for example if the cost of breaking rules is dramatically going to cost you we behave well yeah think about the teachers we had in school where we could escape not doing a homework or not doing an assignment or where you could not you saw the compliance to be very different very very different so often good trustworthy behavior comes from that let me give an example

1:24:53let's say a lot of people are not able to pay back their loans and there are two broad reasons. They do not have the ability. They have lost a job. They have done things and some people do not have the intent that they will not give. But what if we did something like that that all the people who have willfully defaulted that they have not given money we tell them you cannot take Digi Yatra you cannot do Tatkal tickets.

1:25:26now imagine five friends are going to the airport and four people go to the jihatra and you're like oh no I'll go from here social embarrassment so you'll get your trust what if landlords do not rent a property to somebody who has willfully defaulted on their credit scores which happens by the way in most developed world credit scores are checked before renting an apartment. What if people would not get married without checking credit scores?

1:26:08That's a good framework to put. And why wouldn't you want to check? What if it became normal? But why is it important for a country to start trusting a lot to build a country? it cannot be prosperous without trusting see when country cannot be trusting then all the transactions require too much of checking again and again for example let's say if no builder could cause any damage to a buyer otherwise they would have severe punishments so buying property and land would become a trustworthy transaction versus check let's ask 10 people so much friction 90 %

1:26:58so economic prosperity but what if you knew that it could not be wrong

1:27:07and why do you think that trust is not today because there are problems it takes every country goes through and change and trust for example let's say look at the success of UPI only when it can consistently be reliable and prevent frauds and do everything it will be adopted by now close to 500 million Indians use it why do you think we trust digital apps but not human beings as much no I think we trust I don't think that's the case I think we trust that can be verified to be consistent so trust comes from four things I often say this but I'll repeat it trust comes from the presence of four things but it's not you need to be having all four in place if visibly any of the four things are absent you cannot trust something or someone first is integrity and integrity is not a little integrity man is a integrity or institution brand integrity second consistency like today integrity is not today this is the mood today consistency you can predict them like a clockwork yeah third is like competence do they know right imagine you are trying to go for a paragliding and this guy is like sir you are my first client right you would not be interested in that and fourth is benevolence or non self-centered behavior if you knew that somebody is only self-centered you're less likely to trust them so it's not all four are needed but one's absence is seen let's say the paragliding person example the person has integrity consistency he's a good man, he's not self-centered but he's a question of competence then he's finished right now let's say you are investing with somebody you see competence you see consistency in their performance you see they are benevolent but they are like integrity is shady so trust doesn't come that way so only when these four things are consistently done trust comes naturally okay let me give you an example just a thought experiment when you look at countries like US people who have built one sort of organization and they're known for certain things, they're less likely to be trusted in something else.

1:29:57So for example, if Apple who's making phones, people trust them because they've shown consistency and competence in phones. It's less likely for them to start selling salt. People will question them. Not really. They would not question. In fact, if you look at the history of US, they're exactly built that way. One company used to do everything. right today do you think they do that no they don't need to because the markets are deep enough for them to not focus to be focused so you think the conglomerate thing but okay so trust see concentration of trust happens in low trust societies in India it happens so because you will trust like 20 % 20 people 30 people contribute to 90 % of all Bollywood revenue or entertainment revenue and then you will see super apps happen in low trust countries doesn't happen in high trust countries.

1:30:49You do not see large conglomerates emerge in low trust countries or whatever. But if you go back in past, US also has all of these three things in the past. Because as a society found trust in the institutions, right? For example, if you have a bad fall at a cafe, doesn't matter what the cafe brand is, the government will protect you versus you thinking about your own protection. because the institutions are very built for large scale automatically trust comes in everything right so what happens is for example if you go to LA every restaurant has to publish the certificate of their grading from the municipality on the door big sign ABC

1:31:44if we have solidified this test and we mandated this to be kept on the door all the C will be closed

1:31:59let me give a different example we both make a company of LED sign which we will aggregate all the restaurant ratings online and they will send it to restaurants that the sign you put it's an aggregation of all online ratings and customers can now trust this sign because it's truly aggregation real time with AI to give you the rating before you enter the restaurant you are going to see the rating so let's say now we go to restaurants which restaurants will buy and which will not buy any guesses? of course the ones who have high ratings now the rating is not good what choices have you? either you don't like it or you don't like it if you don't like it then business will be done then the choice is to improve so if you improve then you die but would you agree that in 2 years average restaurant quality will go up yeah that we experience it's as simple as that but I was asking from a point of view of do you know any large company which has done multiple things and have been trusted across sectors in the u.s i mean so many examples right like uh you might think but for example michelin is a guide for restaurant and also a tire company right so they are trusted in both the things it is what normal is for example costco is a company most people buy their private label stuff right uh and they take the membership and buy their pulses it's a retailer right so it's very common but conglomerates

1:33:43work in countries that are not deep yet right for example let's say other company country 30-40 trillion just building cheese company will build you a unicorn fair only one thing but let's say if the country is not deep and Amul doing protein this that everything will make sense because you trust them to get that category right but if that was the case we have not built many of the brands that have come in the recent past right so what you will see trust will start happening in multiple categories right now you have seen celebrities who have done protein have been doing well very well actually and you would say that that's not how trust works trust often works basis this for example let's say if I recommended a book right now it will be bought yeah with the trust your thoughts so there is something that trust comes in very unique ways but for example I give some kind of a workout routine you may not trust although it's not that I will not know about it but you will say this is not looking it's not six pack so why do you listen after this simple so how do you trust like who are the trustworthy individuals and who are not it's very simple people who are trustworthy are trustworthy within their org also it's not outside it's very rare to find somebody who's trusted outside when nobody in the team trusts them trust starts in the building first for example let's say people ask outside is Raj trusted person but already news you will say your team will say lunch and dinner will say he is a very unorthyekal man if they said that it's unlikely the trust outside will exist because this news spreads very fast

1:35:53so any behavior that is non trustworthy in nature is content we talked about gossip before it's the best gossip what type of person you've learned to never trust even if they're successful i mean i don't think it works that way in a simple term you can trust them for different things but for example uh let's say when you're trying to trust in investing in somebody right you're looking for

1:36:29how forthcoming they are when they are confronted with something let's say when you tell them

1:36:38if they justify go round about versus saying that no you're right that's not true but let me explain why I said that and you buy that so you'll see very clearly that people who can be trusted long term. Other example is let's say your team members. People who are not fast at giving you bad news but fast at giving you good news. Eventually you will always have to watch your back with them.

1:37:17But their behavior might be a function of how you react also. if you are terrible reactor to bad news never comes to bad news you have to have true but if you say it's okay solve it and after two days he told him that it's not possible but that time if you react like a hyper emotional person you will never get bad news so you feel think about our relationship with parents like who are we going to give bad news first or who are we not going to give bad news or are we going to give bad news to our parents

1:38:03it's based on the trust or the reaction they have given over the time so you feel you can trust a person who accepts and reacts in a better way versus people who deflect Trust, I told you the four components cause trust. I'm just saying there are multiple traits that you feel... Okay, what is trust? Your ability to be vulnerable around somebody or something.

1:38:37That's trust.

1:38:42Do you think as a public figure you can be vulnerable and yet be trusted? If you are vulnerable, that is fine but if you are not respected you can't be trusted as a public figure because ultimately people have to respect you also. Just likes are not enough. Fame is not enough. There are many people who are famous for being cringe. You don't respect them. You won't respect them. We like watching clowns. Doesn't mean that we'll respect them. Would you wear t-shirt of somebody who's very cringe as a person you might just once in a while watch their reel and laugh and oh my god I can't believe they said that

1:39:32respect is all subjective I'll talk about it but I want to share something with you because you said vulnerability I was speaking to somebody who trained and who have trained multiple presidents in the US. And one of the key insights he told me that they have in their training when they become president, one of the first things they've been told that they're not allowed to say sorry. Yes. So he was sharing an insight about Donald Trump that sometimes he knows that he's wrong but they're not allowed to say sorry because that makes them look weak. And that will make more people distrust them, not trust them the way they do it.

1:40:08So then trust comes from being very powerful and not vulnerable. That's a good point. it's about what is the role. If your role is to be a protector, it's different to be vulnerable. If your role is to be protecting my wealth, you can't say sorry.

1:40:32But if your role is to, let's say,

1:40:42generally lead as a manager and say that guys i'm sorry i should have handled this feedback better i should have solved this problem for you better it creates trust you wonder that for example feedback lena if you are not good at taking feedback it's going to be hard for people to trust what if you're unapproachable for feedback will not grow only some figures require you to maintain that stature. But do you think that the same people would not be saying trust to their close people? Otherwise they will never get feedback. How would they know what they are having their blind spots on? But you are right.

1:41:23The respect has very interesting connotations. For example, when it comes to leaders that we want to have blind faith behind. So you will see, you will never see a Godman ever say maybe like something. They are very sure like something. Exactly. That's what I was coming to. So on some figures, we are expecting them to not have any doubt.

1:41:50Because we like to follow people who have backbone, not people who are right and wrong. Do you think it works for celebrities, public figures as well? Yeah, of course. It works for brands also. Some brands, luxury brands, are unlikely to say sorry for your experience your good will be shipped in three days no

1:42:12who should be arrogant and unapologetic about what they are and who should not be I don't think that's a generic statement right people look up to people for different types of traits right if you study brand archetypes there are 12 brand archetypes approachable lovable warm ruler, creator, innovator, magician. There are multiple types. Everybody has a role and you have to fit that role. Right? Look at the movie actor. We have different archetypes. Right? Not saying sorry types. The warm, lovable, likable type. The intellectual type. The non-intellectual type. energy, jovial type. These are all characters.

1:43:06They all exist. And they all have different roles to play. Who will have the highest status, likely to have highest status in a country like India? What do you think? Somebody, always status boils down to wealth or power.

1:43:25The best status, obviously both. What would your brand architect be if you have to put it out in a word? I don't know. I think people... I think brand archetypes are not something that you can craft. You are that. Yeah. What do you think? How do people perceive? I don't know. Maybe I should do a survey and find out how do people perceive me. What's your guess? What's your guess? What do you think? I want to know it from you. I don't know. You tell me.

1:43:58You're very... Like a... random intellect and wise kind of persona that you give at least on internet and sometimes i also feel that you purposely show that you don't take yourself seriously that's like i don't know how to fit that into one thing but that's what you show i actually don't take myself seriously uh i think uh that's what we can perceive and uh that's because nothing really matters right eventually you may do everything in I don't know 50 100 years nobody will remember anything like you see history of people who like who achieved extraordinary stuff like I was talking to somebody about the story of the founder of Bombay Stock Exchange I met some Bombay Stock Exchange employees they didn't even know about this person they work in that institution so forget about who else will care about it yeah so you don't take yourself seriously at all I don't think I think we should take what we do seriously for the time that we are being around over here and do it with a lot of respect and dignity and a lot of integrity but you do also accept that life is absolutely fragile and humans keep evolving and moving on right and you should just be happy about what you did in the time that you had the gift of life versus constantly worry about your legacy or

1:45:42like long term and all of that stuff and I'm not saying that you should not think about that you are building a company you should want for it to last hundreds of years but you do also accept that the mathematical odds of that happening is close to zero

1:46:00have you thought sorry go ahead have you thought that what if you fail I think the mathematical chance of that is high for every single individual what do you do to continuously get lucky for not being failure is something that you have to build through observing pattern recognition so on and so forth right and often you don't see that in people because they are not thinking about converting this into a long term thing for example let's say a company is in the first 5 years let's say Tata Group in the first 5 years we are not thinking that we will make an institution that will be centuries they have to solve a very different problem sometimes of survival right when you are raising a kid when it's one two year old you're not thinking about oh lawyer, doctor, engineer it's hard to although you wish for but you don't think about that you're like okay is the baby sick or not sick has it got vaccinated not got vaccinated so on and so forth you're thinking about different things but I think as you're building companies and you're reaching a certain age you think about it to be more long lasting in nature you don't think about taking shortcuts on many things but have you thought ever okay let me put this in a very podcasty way that

1:47:46if someone was to write a book on you I hope not and the book title is like about your failure okay let's just put it this way you're doing an experiment correct correct the book title is why i didn't make it perfect what do you think would be the first chapter did not evolve explain the world changed and i did not evolve to the change i did not adapt did not learn did not fix my mistakes did not demonstrate discipline do you think you're not evolving at a pace that you should be evolving nobody is evolving at the pace of the world is evolving at right now nobody the world is changing too rapidly too quickly what gives you that this insight just look at everything that is happening around us we often forget that like smartphones don't exist before a very long period of time internet did not exist for a long period of time now we have ai and ai is evolving at a rate every two months that you cannot imagine and the world is therefore evolving around that change of behavior social media uh all the evidence of mental health all the evidence of new types of uh behaviors that are coming on younger people it's evolving at a very different rate we don't know how to plan for it if you had a teenager what are you asking them to study how do you know yeah if you banned placements in MBA schools what will someone do what if you and I build a company that assures placement you'll probably make more money than MBA schools true 100 % so what I'm saying is that who knows who knows nobody knows evolution is changing evolving and it's changing at a much faster rate for example our parents didn't have to learn all this thing and watch podcasts and evolve so fast the world was okay in fact grandparents had to evolve much lesser because the world's rate of change was manageable do you think more people will feel with all this change and evolution average number of people they'll get more successful or they'll fail more I think the rate of failure and success has been consistently in the world.

1:50:15Doesn't matter what the time was. But average wealth always grew. Average prosperity always grew. The gap was always wide. By the way, we often say there's a gap between wealthy and not wealthy. Did you ever imagine the gap between kings and other people back in the day? The gap was multiple times more. we often say that oh countries were richer before they were looted no only the kings were richer rest of the people were not very rich so this is where you have to say what is a purpose of a government find a way to let get everybody out and do well create prosperity for them create opportunity for them and that's what has to happen because you're talking about government it reminds me of another tweet that you did all tweets about power and politics result in more court tweets than any other form of tweet fastest way to be called stupid in life is to have an opinion about power or politics why?

1:51:33I observed this so I wrote that because

1:51:39you will notice that people who talk a lot about politics are usually powerless in life.

1:51:49And they feel the power by discussing politics a lot. I'm not saying that politics is not discussed by a lot of people. I'm saying people who are obsessively discussing that. Right? Especially if they're not journalists. Like journalists, they are paid to discuss.

1:52:10you will notice a very specific pattern that they are usually not very powerful people. That is true. Right? And the reason of the court tweet is saying that you make an opinion about something, people will want to bash you because like it's this identity driven thing. Right? For example, if you question democracy as a thought experiment.

1:52:40And you said that democracy should be different based on the average IQ of society. Just try to write that. You might almost get cancelled.

1:52:57But let's say if I told you that hey we have to hire CEOs of a company based on a voting system in a company would you bet on this company as an investor never terrible idea

1:53:18so that's how things work but when you put these opinions out there because there's a firm belief about something it causes reactions especially from people who are otherwise not very powerful yeah let's you know another experiment I was just reading actually let me give another experiment just think about this just thought experiment yeah okay let's say on twitter

1:53:52after everybody's name their average IQ is shown and that is automatically derived through AI what happens to social media

1:54:08it actually becomes a better place I don't know I don't know it will be less profitable I don't know it's not that all people who are with high IQ are noble but it will be more entertaining for sure I don't know I do believe it will be a very interesting thought experiment and therefore one of the things that I think about is thought experiments a lot second order thinking less than 1 % of people can come up with good answers to this question that I said you can try it in all your interviews with your current team members tell them 10 things that is likely to happen if this is made mandatory in Twitter average IQ average IQ no IQ of every person is shown next to their name if that happens let's say Kunal Shah 80 Raj 140 and now what happens in one year's time ask this question to your team members less than 10 % of people will have great answers and it has nothing to do with what their current role is salary is nothing to do with that

1:55:25why do you think people won't have an answer good answers people have answers in India it is hard to think second third order

1:55:43what if this and then what and then what and very complex you would be good at understanding behavior dynamics for example right now you said it will be entertaining but I'll say why and you have to think and play in your head it takes a while you know people who are listening they should comment their answers maybe we'll get some interesting answers or maybe we'll get similar answers similar answers but it's very hard it's very very hard do you think one thing which will happen if this happened? Actually, think about it. When I was tweeting something, initially, when grok and perplexity became thing, people would question, is this true?

1:56:27Is this what he's saying is correct or not? And only when I saw in the first 20, 30 times, these AI tools said, yes, this person is saying something right. This pattern is observed. This is a proof of this. I saw people stop doing it on my social media some people are asking this is this copied idea and I like it a lot that people do that and I saw that you could see people say yes it's copy we can't mock but it's an interesting instead of believing that this person is copying their ideas or thoughts or whatever you just ask this question so I went and like took my tweets and said how many of these are original not original ideas because I was not trying to validate myself I was like who else thought about this then they would know what they would have thought because they would have probably gone deeper because I am just accidentally discovering something but somebody has gone deep into it for example I was thinking about how do masses get persuaded then I said when I then discovered Plato or any of these guys who have written like books on this topic who have also written books on geometry, geography or human position on topic and you're like oh wow this guy had so much in one life everything and then you discover more such people who've done like 200 topics on authoritative books on that so you're like how's this?

1:58:07we can barely get depth in one subject then you realize the power of distraction that maybe it was not distraction in that time so people were deep now we are shallow about 500 topics second question is out true

1:58:26do you think I am still stuck on the IQ do you think if IQ is written a lot in long run people will stop giving importance to the IQ number it's unlikely to happen because There's a strong correlation. You will see a strong correlation of IQ and wealth. IQ and power. You will see strong correlation in that. I'm not saying causation. IQ and I say guarantee you will get power or wealth. But you will see that a very high percent of people who are wealthy or powerful have higher IQ. Agree. Right? so what you will start noticing is that you will start taking respect opinions very differently for example if I asked an average person today in 2025 do you trust chat GPT more than 90 % of your friends they might say yes

1:59:25by 2030 very few friends will be smarter than chat GPT so then how will trust work in that world of course many of our relationships come from taking advice from somebody taking mentorship from somebody now I'm like boss I'll ask you to chat you entertain yourself tell me relationships might change materially

1:59:50but then if you go with the rule of social media where someone who's relatable and is doing something extraordinary who feels like he's one of you you would want to celebrate that person more so people with lower IQ so it's very interesting would you want to be seen as a relatable person's fan whose IQ is shown as low answer is no no but then you like to be a rebel and be like hey then you would want to be that just to justify my life yeah but then you will stop getting respected because somewhere people will say like you I'm already less respected. Correct. What I'm saying is that if I don't tweet then I can choose to be anonymous and do whatever I'm doing.

2:00:41Right? But if I'm seen you don't want to be seen But you want to be seen supporting an underdog and actually be associated with an underdog who won. Perfect. What you will notice is that when you are doing that, you may not get the support that you think you will get from people who are of respect. see what I'm trying to say is that one is what do I do for example it's not that people who have high IQ high success high power are not watching cringe content and memes they are watching it they are enjoying it right but sometimes like associating with that people wonder why are you doing that for example when I post meme people are like I'll get DMs sir why are you doing this you are such an inspirational figure and I'm like that's what it is but I think that's association problem that what you're doing you should have to podcast with Raj

2:01:45you should have you're making a meme I was coming from the point that if somebody with low IQ proves over time to be of high power wealth and status regardless of having a low IQ a lot of people would want to associate 100 % 100 % so you will start seeing a pattern that if IQ is not high then what happens in it then you might discover that if EQ is more then something is doing or then drive is a lot hustle is a lot discipline is a lot you might start seeing many other traits so I agree with you but it will still be detrimental but they may not give them a chance sometimes because this data became public yeah that's why I'm saying the thought experiment is interesting because would you give a chance to somebody true for example let's say sometimes you might discover the person who makes the most amount of wealth in the stock market is actually not very high IQ but now would you invest once their IQ is revealed although they have proven track record maybe you start doubting and therefore the thought experiment is interesting because it creates some very second order effects.

2:03:05Yeah. Because if you actually look at data also most of the athletes who win they have low IQ comparatively to a lot of high IQ. Yeah because their profession requires a very different thing. But you might discover by the way that people who are actually top athletes are actually very good at pattern recognition and discipline. Agreed. Because you can't just rely on brute force to get to the top of the game because all games eventually are chess. All. You might break out by brute but the top games are always mind games. Yeah. Have you noticed any pattern in yourself? Which regardless of which company you're building or which age you're in or which category you're operating in they keep occurring to you again and again.

2:03:58Yeah. For example, I always look for efficient paths. I believe that there has to be a very efficient, lazy method to achieve something. I'm always seeking that. I'm always trying to find, is there a way to achieve this thing in the most energy efficient way? I often look for those patterns. I've seen a pattern of constantly wanting to know why does something happen? One pattern I observe is that I like to challenge the team on we are doing this this is going to be the outcome. And I'm looking for somebody to prove me wrong. Because then I can trust them with more judgment. Yeah. Nice. For example, let's say you can easily run a thing this video is posting how many views will come.

2:04:53Let's say you run a live contest how many views will come in 24 hours. and you do this 10 times and 2 people are consistently able to predict closest to the answer you can trust them more that's a good thing I'll do it you should do it let me know what happens I'll absolutely do it because they do something that is getting them consistently right one time it's going to be luck ten times it's not luck and you can do it how many views will come in 24 hours we'll check it whoever gets you give them some price let's announce a hundred rupees price for everybody who gets it every 24 hours but you observe in 10 times who won the most times sometimes you might not get in 10 times then you've seen 100 times who won the most times and then boom you start seeing patterns yeah okay one loop was open respect you said respect is primarily decided by power and money.

2:05:58Something of that sort. What did he say? Yeah. Respect is a humans have a natural ranking systems in their head. And we follow people we respect or we like. Either of the two reasons we follow. Respect may not have a large crowd love has a much more larger crowd of funny is more like love like love has more following respect is lesser following because people who seek respect is a smaller cohort right because for example will you ever beat people who are let's say putting funny content out there it's going to be hard very hard because people are trying to escape from their life and enjoy for a few minutes

2:06:58so you think that respect comes where you say okay this guy is seeing something and pattern and they are doing something, winning something, getting something done, achieving something and you see the pattern right? You may not necessarily love them just because you respect them right some people are loved not respected some people are respected not loved some people are loved and respected that is a golden category right and it's hard to get to that yeah with consistency respect usually is when you see people great at long term behaviors respect for example I can make an ad to be liked I make an ad and I get respected no people will see me for many many many years and then potentially build respect or they will have to see respect through association if they see somebody else they respect respect somebody they will respect like name respect why?

2:08:26because people who are very respected don't easily respect people they are very selective in their respect

2:08:38but how do you win respect then? by demonstrating by demonstrating consistency if you asked top cricketers how many people do you respect the list will be very small if you ask an average person give me a list of people you respect you can write in a day why is it like that? because it's harder to get to that respect is a much harder game like is an easier game no you said if you ask if I heard it correctly you said if you ask a cricketer a top cricketer how many people in the planet the respect. Respect. Why would they respect lesser people than an average person? Because the bar is different now.

2:09:23Somebody to show that level of consistency and long term behavior. Because they are at certain level. They will see respect somewhere else. See, they would respect a lot of people. They would not admire a lot of people. So, that's very interesting. Respect is a range. Right? If an elite cricketers saw somebody come at the age of 14 and hit a 6 they'll admire they won't respect they won't respect because they might see that 100 centuries will win match

2:10:05they might see some early signs but there are so many people who have come and disappeared. Even though if they are wealthy and they end up becoming wealthy, people don't respect them because they've disappeared. So for example, if you make wealth through mediums that are not respect generating, not be respected as much. So back in the day, you know, I had tweeted something like most of the wealth was in India was built through opium. Especially Bombay. The trade. Malwa trade. Malwa trade. And opium and all of them did extraordinary amount of philanthropic work to be respected majority of the for example the zoo the public hospitals all of that are donated by opium dealers Sir JJ School of Art College Sir JJ and others were very big in opium trade and by the way it was not illegal that time so you can't currently go and say opium no it's a legitimate business but because you have to find reputation right you would create many things right and building libraries building hospitals building public institutions public parks doing philanthropic work was a way to earn respect so you will see that people who are

2:11:50wealthy may not always be respected they found ways to get respected and that's why they do certain things to be respected what do you chase in life freedom, money, power, respect fame I don't know I think I chase knowledge is what I have found as a more reliable answer all these things I often question this that what drives me I think I like to understand things and implement things and create things

2:12:23like I'm very averse to fame like I often when people okay can I take a selfie my immediate reaction is like no please like don't like you met me just say hello to me something like I don't want that and I I do that quite often and I feel bad because people are really excited to see you and want to take a selfie with you but I'm like like can I say no I'm sorry and like what I've seen only good use of wealth I've seen is access because somebody who has to decide to meet you has to see that at some level you'll get so that's a big use case for example for you like when you started we did the podcast how many years ago?

2:13:12Three and a half years ago. Three and a half years ago. Four maybe. Four. Now, your ability to get meetings with people has dramatically changed. Because A, you have access, distribution, fame, all of that which helps you. True. Very different. And it, every new thing unlocks a new thing. It is very powerful. Yeah. So, I think this is the big work capital in my case social capital social capital capital some level they say you should get it but for example they might want to meet you oh what if through this I might appear on this podcast and I get famous like some association benefit that they might seek from you with capital somebody who's trying to meet you is like okay will you get access of something sometimes there's knowledge but I've seen that when you chase knowledge and nothing else people respect you more 100 % so what I have seen is that whenever I've reached out to somebody and say like let's say I meet somebody from big from the media industry and I say I only want to meet you to understand how movies work this work or whatever and let's say when they invite me to a party and I say no they respect you more because you're not trying to take advantage of this person to get access to that world right for example we've sponsored IPL for many years I've gone for no party I've gone for no things I've not even gone for matches right because you'll be very clear what do you want but would I want to meet an athlete in a personal setting to ask them questions about what makes something special absolutely yes but you have no fascination towards being seen with them so that you are being seen more yeah or get access to that part of their life which may not be appealing to me I definitely want access to their brain glamour doesn't excite you yeah it doesn't because I think it's very short lived it's one of those things which is depreciating asset I like appreciating assets interesting way to look at things yeah long term glamour is short term I like long term things if I learn something from an elite cricketer or an elite athlete elite musician elite something it'll stay with me forever it'll shape me it will mold me it will create a new dimension in me can I share something?

2:15:48I've often questioned myself for being like the way you are I similarly because of the nature of the work I get invited to XYZ parties to the glamour world and i 90 of the time say no sometimes i go there because just i want to see what's in that world i want to understand and meet certain people who i can only get access through that event and i yet want to be so low-key that i just repel to just no pictures no nothing i don't want to be seen anywhere and i always used to feel that maybe it's some kind of complex inside me which is making me not seen in the public? I don't know. I would always ask questions.

2:16:30I go there for actually the information and knowledge and connecting with people. Ultimately people seek what they want and they get it. Right? For example, I have requested multiple people who give awards or whatever. I don't want to be given. I'm very happy to help you with anything in life but don't nominate me or give me anything because it doesn't help when you're building a business you have to prove you can scale you can build profit you can give return to your shareholders you can help your employees become wealthy all of that stuff yeah what will they do yeah so I've seen that if you're doing well people of respect know you true you meet some people they don't know you because you won some award they know your numbers true so true so this is the respect respect game recognizes game hmm they are not recognizing you because you won some award no chance yeah vanity metric they don't give a shit about yeah they actually look at it in negative valor hmm that this person is chasing vanity so maybe the substance and value will be lesser yeah what's the biggest misunderstanding about you

2:17:58I often think about this and ask people about it for example a lot of people who come to work at cred they think I'm some intimidating like twitter personality but I'm like working and deeply involved at work so they're like okay they thought I'm like some guy who's not in office and like some guy who's I don't know goes on speaker and speaks to the team big boss that's one thing I've seen consistently second is that because I don't use I come from a generation where emojis is not natural to me anywhere so people think that I'm rude or arrogant because I don't and I speak in lesser words yeah so people who are efficient in communication are always perceived to be rude but you're not rude you're just i i am i'm just the way i am right uh and and uh but do you think you're rude i don't think so because he rude people who are rude are trying to hurt somebody and they are trying to evoke a reaction from somebody i am less likely to notice either of the two i like to say that it should help you yeah if you spend 10 minutes with me should help you versus all this words like rude, mean it doesn't matter so now that you know that people misunderstand this thing about you does it bother you?

2:19:31Do you ever want to change it? or you're like fuck it I'm the way I am I think anything that would impact anything long term I would want to change it I haven't thought this impact because there are enough people who tell you it's a nice guy I don't think if people at work felt the same thing after joining then it will become the image that I have. Yeah. But they'll say it's okay. I think people build perceptions basis the version of they see out there. For example when I post like I'll tell you a funny story. I once was at a cafe and this person walked up to me and said oh please can I take a selfie with you?

2:20:17You are my favorite meemer. This person had no clue. I do something else in life. Really? And I was personally very happy about it because I was like, this is an achievement that I did not ever see coming. And it's like, oh, my sister is going to be so jealous that I got a chance to meet you. And I'm like, this is interesting, right? So I think often that like people build a perception about you and sometimes people have a different perception about you somewhere else altogether. Like this person doesn't think about anything else except I post memes. That's incredible. I loved it. I loved it. I was like, that is so cool.

2:21:08see now that when you go in rooms you're respected and people admire you for n number of things what's a part of you which you which you still want to hide oh i think uh i don't think i have a part in me left for example i used to be very i i did not think till i became I would say decently successful in terms of money I ever talked about that I was poor or had these challenges or these things because I used to be afraid that I will be treated with sympathy

2:21:51and I didn't want anybody to give me an opportunity based on sympathy because it's not merit driven then it's a little bit of a charity that somebody is doing for you so I think that's the only part I used to hide consciously that not talk about not having money like I literally remember that I had a for the entire college I had one shoe that was torn and I must have repaired it hundreds of times I wouldn't want to make that the story that somebody will give me an opportunity but now when I reflect back it is something that I am okay to talk about. Earlier I would be like, no, you have to pretend that you were not poor.

2:22:41And what changed? Just accepting that it's just what made me who I am. But that time I think I was right in not sharing that earlier because I don't think anybody should seek sympathy. I think as a culture like we had too many sad songs and too many self-sympathizing stuff I don't think respect comes to people who are constantly seeking sympathy you might like them you might help them you can't respect them so true it's such a a lot of people use sympathy as a strategy and then later realize that the only thing it got them was likes not the respect yeah or help but not respect okay we want to go through all the tweets now oh my god and you have to explain these things to me some of these things you have already done but still so you said success isn't a club you enter through inheritance what do you mean by this?

2:24:01I think it's earned right? success is an earned thing it's not what you get just because let's say think about nepotism you can get your first movie through influence you can't get your 10th movie through influence it might give you an entry ticket let's say being rich might get you to a good college doesn't make you successful in life. So what I mean by that is that it is not coming through inheritance. It is something that is earned. Then what do you mean by success here? Because a lot of people actually measure success by money and power that you have. Inheritance gives you both of them. It gives you both.

2:24:45For example, but let's say if you did not have built an ability to create wealth, you'll most likely lose wealth so most wealth disappears in third fourth generation in most families because of this so it's unless you build an ability to create wealth but it's not it's not it's not but but I think you'll see people who are not people have inherited money and not built their own they're not respected as much people see it

2:25:23but in extreme large families you don't even know you'll find out their employees will know sir toh office mein video game khilta it's true and the word will come out yeah so no matter money can actually get you respect or success unless you are seen growing and compounding and sacrificing taking risks fair okay here's another one those who are greedy to understand the world get more money those who are greedy to understand the world get more money in life than those who are greedy to get more money yeah I think being greedy to money is saying that I want to be this guy but I don't want to find the process of how do I get there right but people are greedy to understand the world figure out and money just comes as an outcome of that or success comes as an outcome right for example let's say i i'm an aspiring podcaster i want to i want to be like raj over here and like oh my god i'm going to beat all the numbers he has but i'm no interest in the process of how he picks his guests and how he gets this content what does he do all of that and I'm not trying to understand what makes things viral I'm not trying to understand any of that and I'm only greedy for the end outcome I'm less likely to get it but people are greedy to understand the world who else will keep it starts like that sorry don't you think it starts with just greed not necessarily because sometimes you just discover money is an accidental outcome of some of the things that you are pursuing did you expect really make so much revenue when you started?

2:27:16No. Did you do this for money? No. Never. You're making a lot of money that as an outcome of what you are still doing for your passion. I still don't believe this is making this much money. Correct. But the thing is that if you thought that you don't listen to money to make money, you don't listen to podcasts. Yeah. But a lot of people make a business for spending money. That's fine. And it's very hard. It's very hard. It's very hard. It's very hard. It's very hard. But unless they're understanding how things work. Business is done to make money. There's no question about that. But you do not make a lot of money if you don't understand things.

2:27:50So you have to be greedy of understanding things. Being greedy for money doesn't create understanding. The core loop which compounds is that. For example, oh, do you want to get a six pack? Yeah, everybody will raise hand. But that's not the thing. Just the discipline, the understanding, the choices is what creates the outcome. I agree with you but I think for most people the starting point is I just want to make money. I don't care about anything else because I just want to get out of the financial rut of my family. That is good starting point. It's not what will get you anything. It will get you some money in the beginning.

2:28:34It's difficult. It's difficult. If your understanding is not growing nothing will come. To make money you need to understand. The real currency is understanding and skills. money is just a score yeah it's like I need to make a century century versus I will kill six I will teach batting I will do this I will do it I will ask the best athlete then it will make a century yeah you know just a random fact because you talked about six packs I was reading yesterday I don't know how true that stat is in America you're 4x more likely to become a millionaire than to have a six pack yeah I think it's going to become 10 to 12x now because the wealth is constantly growing the percent of people who are having six pack is consistently remain the same so you said process driven understanding right do you feel with the way AI is becoming more and more prevalent in our lives we are less likely to be process driven and more likely to be outcome driven and that's actually ruining a part of our brain because now I don't care about developing a muscle or developing an interest of process I only care about the final outcome yes and no right if you do not understand how something works your brain will not fully develop yeah so that's a true statement but should you do something the hard way the answer is no right for example we all took vehicles to come to this place one could argue that you don't have to go you don't have to go I would have taken few hours to come over here so the question is that we find efficient paths to achieve the outcome right but doesn't mean that we do not know if you have to walk we can walk or not but if you learn to not walk and only vehicle is the only way you will get there then you are in a problem how do you do that in an AI case no so let's take an example of this if you were not able to write a single paragraph without ai's help then you're in a big trouble because you'll not even know if ai is in a good job which will most likely to happen for yeah so i'm saying that will happen for most people so what i'm saying is that dependency will increase and people's brain will go atrophy so actually i tweeted about this that the atrophy that we are going to go through and the dependency on all decisions that we take on, right?

2:31:09See, one is auditing a decision. One is taking help to take decisions. Very different. If you take AI's help to audit your decisions, audit your judgment, audit your strategy, good idea. What should I do? The moment you do that, the brain will attrophiate a different level.

2:31:35Which is what I'm worried about in general.

2:31:40And see, human brain is energy efficient. Whatever happens, we don't want to spend our brain on anything. Yeah. So anything that makes our brain energy efficient will keep going down that path. But it's a little bit like muscle. Eventually, we make the muscle, it becomes more efficient. Yeah. Right? and therefore building that muscle is an important trait and unless we become good at building that muscle which is otherwise avoidable most people avoid it that changes the equation materially so you have to think about life where hey I am going to like push for that atrophy to not happen I am going to leverage this to become actually even more curious take more ambitious calls more decisions more curiosity then it's very powerful but that's true for any tool in life it's true for any tool in life internet came and we all told the same thing that we are sitting at the table we had to go to the library we had to understand we had to ask we had to talk to the professor now it's all done so people have become extraordinarily better using internet and people are still watching fun content on that the country's average usage now is searching 35 GB almost per month per capita without a Wi-Fi usage by the way this is just data usage on cellular 35 GB so you wonder how much do we do 35 GB average per capita per user in India probably the highest in the world when was the last time you got offended I don't get offended I'll tell you what I don't think I have no memory of getting offended because my filter is of some work information or not I don't I don't have the filter of offended and not offended I usually I'm either curious or not curious interested not interested that I can give you very clear answers about but offended not offended is not the filter do you have any insecurity insecurity of becoming not able to understand something not able to figure out something is a huge it's a huge thing that I it's not an insecurity it's a worry I have it keeps me up that do I get it but physically or personally do you have anything no emotionally no insecurity I'm sure when I grew up I had the same insecurity as everybody else did but eventually realized that these are all less important things have you ever gone in a room full of people and felt inferior?

2:34:32Not anymore. For example, I didn't know how to speak proper English till I was like 23, 24. Not that I can claim that I can speak well now also. But the thing is that that time I would worry that I would just be a listener. For example, I remember distinctly that my biggest trigger of joining MBA was I would read economic time. I don't know anything. Right? And I would feel like, oh my God, this world is like alien it's a little bit like you want to see under the ocean you don't know how to swim like it's a little bit of that right but now I don't think but I think I have gone to solve these barriers versus like

2:35:17you can do that but I have never done that I'm like and then you just went deeper and deeper to solve that out insecure so you worked on your on the things that bothered you yeah and I think once you understand have you ever ignored or have I ever ignored ignored something that bothers you

2:35:43no I usually address it I usually address it it's a good signal to know where to work on it's a good indicator it's like engine light is in the car something bothers is a good place I don't ignore it usually and try to understand also why it bothers me sometimes discover that it's not worth bothering about then light I do this I write notes on like let's say weekly or 20 days whenever I get angry or bothered I write down I get bothered or angry and then whenever I have time but you should write down why did I get bothered and then whenever I have time at the end of the weekend or somewhere or I'm in a long flight I open those notes and be like okay is time I got angry why did I get angry where is this coming from what is happening if you go more into why emotions will disappear the word why is a very powerful thing to go into logic versus emotions so I would say if more people used why they would be less emotional You said something about India on this point.

2:36:55What is that? Again, you tweeted that it's hard to imagine for rationality to be at forefront in a society where emotions are celebrated and lack of it is resented. Yeah. So, for example, it's like a robot. Or somebody who's controlling their emotions. So, we can't expect rationality to be at forefront over there. Is that one of the reasons which is holding us to be very prosperous? I don't think so. Prosperity is a very complex topic, right? For example, I would say one gender is working and second gender is not contributing to workforce. No country has become rich by one gender working. It's a much bigger factor than emotions and non-emotions, right?

2:37:34So complex topic, but rationality and curiosity, reason, productivity is important. For example, you will never see country getting prosperous without them really valuing time. You will not see a one country that will become prosperous without valuing time. You will never see a must-shall-ray or country prosperous. You talk about it a lot. No, but it's evidence. It's evidence, right? So if I found a country that became prosperous by being dumb chill, I'm very interested in that. And I'm not even saying that we should chase that metric. I don't know if it's the right metric to chase that we should become rich.

2:38:13I don't know. Who knows is the right metric? For example we say, oh we should try to make people healthy and make them live longer but what if they are not wanting to live? Who decides that metric? Right? In the past people used to live a good life die at a good age now we keep extending their age by doing medical interventions Is that a good thing? I don't know.

2:38:41So, what I don't like to do is build these firm views. I'm just saying, if you want prosperity, you have to do this. If you want six pack, you have to do this. Should we want six pack? I don't know. Should we want prosperity? I don't know. Should we want success? I don't know. What I know, if you want this, you have to do this. But when you ask people, they all say they all want everything. Yeah, but they don't want to do anything about it. That's the change we have to do. and it's okay to not want some of these things I know many people who are like very clear no, this is everything which is great which is great problem is when the ambition that comes out of mouth doesn't let's say an example we get super offended when somebody talks about working more hours why?

2:39:28don't do it why I get offended by somebody telling you to work harder who will do it who will do it don't do it why do you think people get offended when they talk about Because when people get offended, it is usually coming from a place where they know there is some truth to it. Offense doesn't come when there is absence of truth. For example, if we remark to somebody that this don't even feel is 1 % true, we would less likely get a reaction out of that. if the person is saying that the country is not going to get prosperous for example let's talk about work from home for us the whole work life balance situation right now we say that it's a good thing we say it should be five days a week it's a big thing but in the country it's five days a week we have 25 days for the first festival nobody asked so then are we being selective I am very happy if we take the western thing and we take all of it then we will selectively take 5 days a week but we will not say our 15-20 smalls that is not in the world

2:40:56true people don't go to some distant relative's wedding people don't take 15 days break for their brother or sister's wedding. So we tend to get confused through selective data. And then there's some truth to it so we get offended. Yeah. For example, if you ask most Indians, are we the best culture in the world? Most people will say yes. If you ask them how many other cultures have you visited and studied you don't get that answer but if you say that Indian culture is not great you will be offended that's why truth seeking removes the fence

2:41:51do you think in general are we becoming more offensive we are becoming sensitive because we have this concept I have said this multiple times that when you build reputation before substance you will get offended very fast right and younger people have that unique problem that they are designed to get offended because of their their world that they create around them there's 2000 people like liking world yeah and but if you say kya hai farak paddha you said one of the best things which I think you've said it to me was most of the young people are worried about the reputation they don't have beautiful like so true why did you say that and what do you think what did you observe no because the same thing they are like worried about how they look what their image is their brand all of that stuff and I'm like nobody cares about these things eventually and like you're worried about these things and I think that repetition prevents them from learning more things because they're worried about their image too much right for example I see them I see this generation seeking the least amount of help from people because it's I'll look small if I ask for help

2:43:17so their growth has stopped they're finding it much more comfortable to ask Chad GPT but some help is better to be asked by a person yeah but you don't see them seeking help oh I have to be like maintain my aura so they are sure failure in private because they don't want to be seen asking for help why is this happening because social media but everyone has a small world

2:43:53it's a high touch world see these people you're not in touch with they don't know you they know your image about you they have a brand perception about you they don't know you yeah

2:44:07so you want to maintain an image before we were saying what would people say was the thing yeah but as I'm saying those are the exact people who find it hard to ask for help what I'm saying is that it's so much more now before we were talking about 50 people now it's now it's now it's now it's now it's now it's now it's now it's how do we break out of this because for someone reputation let's say for what I think you'll rarely see success in people who have stopped caring about shame shameless is a very important ingredient I believe when you reached out for the podcast for the first time to me you didn't care you were just shameless enough to ping yeah I said yes I didn't know whatever for example I remember like I discovered so much later that there was a collaboration on Instagram I didn't care about all these things like I was like okay sure do it like and what I discovered is that people who reached out were shameless got the benefit of that now I'll be more selective about who reaches out and who I'll say yes to and not say yes to but earlier you were shameless enough to reach out you got that you said I got the highest views for you initially and that was great what if you had not reached out thinking that you are what if he says I'm sure people have said no to you in the beginning how many people said no to you in the beginning first 200 guess nobody came 200 first random perfect but you haven't given up shame but most people don't get to 200

2:45:50and shamelessness what is shame in it see that's what I'm saying for most people there's a huge shame rejection is a huge shame being left on red is huge shame for people why do people talk about it red zone don't double text where do you go

2:46:12you ask any young person double texting is almost a sin for them

2:46:20maybe

2:46:24you'll be surprised ask the younger team members Like scene zone, right? Scene zone, red zone. Double texting. Ask the younger people in your team. Like will you double text? Or how do you perceive somebody who double texts? How do they perceive if you have asked? You should check. Desperate. Yeah. It's a real thing. Who makes these rules though? Insecurities. Human insecurities. all rules all of these come from human insecurities see I I believe you need to be shameless that is so true everybody needs to be shameless in order to win but the shame threshold is no shameless is a binary term like what we are talking about is I would never even think that this is shameful reaching out to somebody on an email or Instagram not for everyone not for everyone okay I am going to do a thought experiment with you a lot of team members are outside we will experiment

2:47:33all of them have to act like a beggar on the street and whoever gets 100 rupees wins a big prize how many people will agree to this experiment number two how many people will be able to pull this off

2:47:52number three how would they think about themselves

2:47:59some people you know you know you can already identify which 4-5 people will just go and get the 100 rupees also for effort exactly like I know you would go I would go like very like zero there's nothing in it it's just exactly but it's not easy it's a good story to tell yeah I've done it once in college as a bet

2:48:23yeah so shame is directly it's preventing success for sure

2:48:32true and if you won't yeah actually if you won't be shameless you won't get the opportunity that you want you won't get the girl that you want you won't get anything any level of success that you're actually looking out for anything what's the level of shame which is accepted or not is there some line to it. I don't think so. Just be shameless. There is no such thing. Because there has to be some thin line, right? Like not be... See, you think oh, you became creepy is a very different thing. Yeah. Would you be offended if somebody reaches out to you 20 times? No. Absolutely not. Why would I be offended by that?

2:49:06Like you're just like what the fuck? Like you'll block that person. Like, it'll irritate you. Because you didn't reply once or you didn't reply twice. But most people have no craft in reaching out to you. right they don't establish the value that they provide to you they send the same text like for example a lot of people I guess if you see most people's DMs of thing hi hello hello hey hey hello like why you like nobody's saying anything more so that's the and how do you get over let's say a lot of people would reach out to a lot of people that's what I'm saying we have to establish value why would somebody give time attention most people underestimate that this also goes back to the school years right we are not taught to date we are not taught to approach we are not taught to sell ourselves we are not taught to actually go out and go get people same thing the same opportunities the whole thing not like what is this whole like this thing that like Zakir as a comedian talks about Saktlonda what is that is this don't go out I can't ask how can somebody break out of this by accepting that there is success outside of this because I am trying to go to my life and thinking about but you will see many people who come from business families are not naturally less look at all the people who are misbehaving at the airport are usually from business families they are laughing they are not ashamed shame is a little bit because I'm thinking that when shame came or when shamelessness came you would have probably got more shame in Bombay than where you are originally from oh yeah 100 % oh you can't behave this way 100 %

2:51:01so the only way it is just mentally you have to tell yourself that okay there's success on the other side and that's it there's no other way for me to do it yeah but you need to be crafty about it you can't just like oh I'll message this then you will get blocked yeah for example let's talk about dating scenario what does this person want in their life for example let's say I'm reaching out to an investor I send an email my pitch if you do not take any effort to find out what kind of stuff this person is likely to react to home work is zero but everything else so I'll just do 25 times same thing in dating if you do not know what this person is expecting

2:51:54randomly you'll text so you'll just say hello hi hello hi doesn't work

2:52:03and you usually know what homework to do there's no usually people who are interested to really get it right they will do the homework they'll figure out or find out that it's not going to happen so it's not true that's the way to think about it yeah you said let this be the last question you said actually second last okay you said alpha male if you want to put it what's alpha male according to you no sorry I don't think is alpha male I think someone like Zaky it does a fantastic job to actually make this into a humorous take to this that it's almost a problematic slash insecure version of somebody to protect to pretend to be this person right and and and he's also kind of giving the other side to explain the nuance of what really it means internally to feel that way but i think the whole thing around alpha whatever i mean i remember asking this question to Karan Johar once at one of the events I hosted as hey why are these movies doing big success and he's like Kunal this has happened every decade this whole angry young man of different type has come back again and again in different forms it's existed from the beginning and I was like yeah that makes sense it's just that we feel this every now and then because it's almost a cycle that repeats right so I think anything that is different for society's norm gets attention then again it becomes normal then we'll again have somebody who's loving and like this loving personality will again win so it will be a cycle it's the same thing humans are very predictable that way fashions are exactly the same cycles these things of expecting personalities to be in cycle same thing continues but what's your definition of alpha male?

2:54:02I don't think there is. I think to me, these are more biology definitions versus human definitions. In biology, it's very simple that somebody who has more success to get resources or mating success is known to be alpha. Right. But human life doesn't work that way. We are not like some animals living in some jungle that we have to create this particular thing. leadership is natural for example it's very simple leadership to me is followership right if somebody creates followership people would follow them do something because they said something that's leadership it's alpha, beta gamma, theta I don't understand all stuff leadership followership is very simple and followership doesn't mean I follow somebody because of their humor.

2:55:01That's not followership. Followership means if you say it, then you do it. How influential you are. Influential to make somebody make sacrifices. Not watch a reel just because you send them. That's not influence. All attempts to differentiate end up becoming attempts to belong. Yeah, that's a pattern I observed is that look at all the Gen Z who decide to not post anything. they only have highlights sometimes and no posts like that's their thing yeah they did that to differentiate with older people but now all Gen Z's do it somebody must have started the trend now that person must be feeling significant in their head so I think all attempts to differentiate becomes an attempt to belong eventually

2:55:55okay last again sorry resourceful people create more wealth than insightful people you need to explain me this what do you mean by resourceful people what do you mean by insightful people and why one over other so insightful people tend to know why things work the way they work they have good efficient methods to understand the reasons behind stuff but resourceful people are actually the people who so if you'll see many people in small towns who make a lot of wealth are not very insightful people they're just very good at making money they're resourceful what I mean by resourceful is like if you tell them sir this is a problem I don't get the visa in the country then the resourceful person comes to help not an insightful person yeah I'm doing it I'm doing it and some people will say this will do it this will do it think about your own team members also you will see that the insightful people are not the one you rely on the resourceful people you rely on true so there is a difference between the two like if you are not the type that will be and all of us have all of us know this type of people yeah who will we call if you got stuck with police or legal issues or some challenge or some topic or some help some person you know that this is the right person and they are not most insightful people they just get stuff done they don't think in obstacles they think in outcomes is there a way to become resourceful?

2:57:34I think first is removing your shame reluctance resistance and just being there

2:57:44and just happening to the world see there is two types of people people who happen to the world and people and the second type is where world happens to them if you are the first type you are resourceful you need to be valuable to the world no you need to happen to the world like you change the world you shape the world you make things happen you get stuff done you don't worry about obstacles you you your existence creates change are you that in even the smallest room yeah and then it just gets and boy people do well in life and most people stuff happens to them yeah they just live yeah they are perpetual somewhat of a sufferer of the world true love it thank you so much it was pleasure having you again and my pleasure I'll have you again whenever next time you're ready it's always good to talk to you how are you doing?

2:58:57good man I was just telling Vaisnavi that going to young people's office is like going to a rap here's our quotes break the case it's day one it works it works it works for us I know I'll reach out to you because people need to appreciate what the hell has happened. And business folks need to treat this into a very serious business podcast versus like some motivational stuff. It's like boss, it's hardcore. It's not some that he's standing up. He's standing up. There is a lot of serious juice which goes on. No, there is no fucking way you're going to get this kind of numbers by just like being a child doing stuff.

2:59:40There's some serious athlete stuff going on over here. Thank you so much for your episode. end to the end. Now you know what you have to do. First of all, subscribe to this channel so that we will bring more valuable guests. Number two, tell me what you liked in this episode and what you want to see guests. We will bring this episode in this podcast. And you have to share this episode with someone else. You will get something better in your life. Because one conversation can change someone's life. I'll see you next time. Until then, keep figuring out.