280. How to Stop Making Emotional Financial Decisions with Dr. Nick

23:13Tiffany Aliche:so let's say that somebody has done let's not say it's like the blow up their life decision let's say it's a pattern of like mindless spending if they're listening to this episode they're listening to you and they're going yep that's me i am making purchases or doing financial decision making in a way that's not regulated how do they make that an habit and a pattern as opposed to just doing it once. So this is where we come back to systems, right? We need to substitute and replace that pattern. And it's not, I call it, it's not just mindless spending, but also mindless debting, right? Where we don't cancel the subscriptions and we are late on the payments again.

24:03And so really taking a look at just one of the things, Because typically when people have issues with this, it's not just one thing. It's a multitude of things. It's, well, as soon as I go outside and I see something nice, I want to buy it to make me feel better. Okay, well, what else makes you feel better? What are you going to say to yourself instead? If you are mindlessly, again, debting, right? And having purchases come on and not canceling them in time. Maybe it's we set a date the third of the month, at least for me. That's kind of like that sweet thought before everything is due. And the third of the month, whether it's due on the 27th, the 16th, the first of the next month, everything's getting done on that one day.

24:48What you also want to be thinking about is cognitively offloading, right? So a lot of times people are just so bogged down with the stress and the layers of responsibility that it's really hard to say, okay, let's create this system and I have to be on top of all of the other things. My hope to people is that you don't need to be on top of this. Let's just create this one thing, this one system that's going to just cognitively offload you so this is the one thing that you do not have to think about anymore. You set it and you forget it.

25:18Tiffany Aliche:That's so helpful. And I think for me, what I teach is like a money date where it's sit down like once a month, look at your money, look at your automation for your savings accounts like have a designated time to check in on all of this because that's also your designated time to build those systems because I hear the same thing people are like I'm so in the day-to-day or the moment-to-moment I can't even think about having enough time to build the system and I'm like no you got to give time to build the system because then you're no longer in the day-to-day you actually also have to like just trick your mind into doing it right so yeah When we talk about it, seriously, when we talk about it, like right now, it's very easy to be said than to be done.

26:03You really have to schedule in your calendar. What time are you going to do this? Are you going to do it just before you leave work? Are you going to do it just before you go to bed? Like, when are you realistically going to sit down and do it? Make it an appointment like you're making an appointment with a neurologist that you cannot miss. And you have to do it at least six to seven times before we can say, yeah, that doesn't really work for me. We have to actually give it that good system and pad that system so that it's actually attainable in actually doing it.

26:31Tiffany Aliche:You work with a lot of high achieving women. How does burnout quietly shape financial decisions in ways people don't realize until much later? You know, what I'm often seeing is kind of a giving up kind of theme. And so when they reach like real burnout, clinical burnout, it's like, well, I'm not really paying attention to my stocks anymore. And I'm just I have the money, so I'm just going to spend it on whatever I want. It's not like the lights are going to go out. And so there's a little bit of a passive carelessness that I see. And so what we're really trying to do is set a goal that is lucrative for them.

27:17What do you want to do? If you were able to do this, like, how would you feel about it? Would you be proud of yourself about it? And again, I wish there was different words to make it not sound cheesy, but that's what it is, right? Right. So I think that when we're quietly burning out, it's really important to catch it early because a lot of times when we're talking about burnout, people think this is something that's temporary and, oh, I'm just going to take a week or a month off work and go back. And it's much deeper than that. Right. So it does take some work there. Sure.

27:51Tiffany Aliche:And I think it's something that people don't talk about enough that when you are making good money, it's actually a lot easier to ignore your money. Like, it's a lot easier to just be like, well, I'm making good money and it's fine until you realize, oh, I'm spending almost all of it and I'm not thinking strategically about how to grow it or protect myself. And like, that's, I think, a trap we don't discuss enough, because if you are living paycheck to paycheck or even making, you know, enough money to get by, you still have to be super dialed in. Like, you don't have a lot of flexibility versus if you're making, I don't know what the number is, 150K plus.

28:32Tiffany Aliche:It's like, I can kind of just do what I want and not really pay attention. And I think that's one of the things that also impacts women that they don't realize until much later down the line. Oh, I've just been like wasting years not viewing this as a strategic thing to do or like I could be strategic with my money. I could allow this really good salary to work even harder for me, but I'm just kind of ignoring it. You're absolutely right. And it's kind of to your earlier point is, if I know how to do it, why am I not doing it? And that is the result of that, right? That's the result of that. And so typically, listen, we're all adults.

29:17And the benefits of being a grown up is that you can do whatever you want, right? You can't spend all the money without having a safety net. But when you think honestly and have that honest discussion with yourself of, okay, where do I want to be in 20 years? And how can I get there? even if you say, all right, let me at least not spend this X and then the rest is free game, starting with something small and doable is kind of the best approach. But I think the problem that people often face is that they try to go big. They go big with the systems, they complicate the systems. And then when they all come crashing down at the same time, and it's like, oh, well, it didn't really work.

29:58So here we are. I'm bad at money. Come full circle.

30:02Tiffany Aliche:Yeah, it's the, I'm going to go work out for two hours every single day at the gym. And then when inevitably a weekend, you're not able to do that because of course you're not, you're not a psychopath. It's not like, it's not doable. And then I think what you just said is so common, which is, oh, then it must not work. Right? Like, oh, I tried it, but not really. You didn't really try it. Or you went way too hard, which is also not what we're saying. And then, of course, it doesn't work. But then it's a lot easier to say, well, I guess I just can't hack it. Or I guess this podcast doesn't actually, like, this episode didn't really teach me anything.

30:43Tiffany Aliche:It's like, no, all of that's there, but you have to remain consistent and it has to be the smaller wins. And I think we get caught up in the sexiness of like big decisions or like big systems, but like the sexy, exciting things are not the things that are actually going to get you where you want to be. and you know you brought up a really great example about those gym clothes because i know i know people that do go to the gym for two hours which is something i can't even imagine but they don't start off that way right nobody starts off that way and so the the folks that are now going to the gym for two hours a day they started going to the gym twice a week and they were only doing the treadmill right for 30 minutes and then they were out of there and then once you start to see those little bit of gains, you lost a little bit of weight, you gained a little bit of strength.

31:36Oh, well, now I'm going to make it 45 minutes. Now I'm going to try a class. Now I'm going to do this. It's the same thing with every single aspect. So when you're thinking about consistency and dopamine and all of these things, one of the other things that I want to mention just about the brain is that, you know, your amygdala that holds like your emotional memories, okay? It's basically what tells the limbic system like, oh, hey, this is what's going on. This is a familiar feeling to me, so start reacting to it this way. This is why so many times a feeling of I'm bad at money, so that amygdala, remember the last time?

32:09Remember the last time you messed up? This is this again. This is this again. See, see, see. And so you really want to be able to kind of change that narrative in that amygdala. So you start having these good emotional memories around finances, right? And so by taking the smallest actions, and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger, now the amygdala is changing a little bit where it's like oh wait i was able to do this last time now i can do this this is in the research this is really how it works and so yes it's about consistency but it's also about getting those dopamine hits along the way or i'll see ya or

32:41Tiffany Aliche:what's the point is this what we're talking about when we think about encoding on the brain is this the same thing it can be right so when i think about encoding i'm thinking about attention right so how we process information and so the first pass of information is encoding and that encoding storage and then it gets to short-term memory and then it gets to long-term memory now when it's coming to the amygdala yes there's been some encoding of information that's been placed right if it's like no as if you were a kid and your parents were like no you can't have candy at the store and the thing because it's a waste of money you can't have that toy.

33:20It's not your birthday. You need a special occasion to buy something. All of those do get encoded into that amygdala, right? Like those feelings of, oh, should I buy this for myself for no reason? That amygdala checks and it's like, oh, wait, remember? So yes, absolutely. There's kind of like an encoding of emotional memories that happens there. And so it is something that it is your brain that's doing it. It's not, you know, your own volition.

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36:17Tiffany Aliche:We haven't said the word yet, but we've been dancing around it. But let's talk about willpower because a lot of people just think, oh, I can't do that thing because I don't have enough willpower. I can't go to the gym every single day because I don't have enough willpower. I can't save money because I don't have like we could do any goal here. And the reason you can't achieve it gets blamed on willpower. Debunk that for me. so willpower i think people confuse willpower with a lot of different things yes and i see it all the time i try not to be on social media but when i do it is reinforced actually a lot by coaches and things like that that'll say like you can start a business at 4 p.m to 9 p.m and just do all that and don't watch tv but you just need the willpower to do it i'm like really is that is that what's going to happen yeah talk to me about willpower when you're well rested well fed not stressed and uh we can talk about willpower financially stable yeah talk to me but i i think that there's to me there's no such thing as the word laziness that often comes in you know commensurate with the willpower like oh i'm just i'm lazy and i've never spoken with someone that has called themselves lazy when they don't have something big that's going on, something stressful that's going on, something they need to be dealing with.

37:46And so if you can tell me your life is completely clear, you're stress-free, then sure, talk to me about willpower. But I don't really believe in this idea of willpower, you just need to buck up and get it done kind of thing. You can do that. But again, you have to make sure those barriers are out of the way. You cannot have willpower with barriers blocking you.

38:07Tiffany Aliche:And on the flip side, I think of the very intense willpower, and we're, you know, kind of broifying willpower here, but they've done it themselves. On the flip side of that, self-compassion is often understood as letting yourself off the hook. Like, no, I have to speak to myself with shame because that's what I need. So from a brain perspective, how does self-compassion actually improve follow-through and decision-making? If you have self-compassion, you are more likely to hold good boundaries with money. You know, when you say, you know, no to others, you're saying yes to yourself. And I don't think people have enough self-compassion and they say yes to a lot of things that they shouldn't.

38:56And so it's interesting that people do prioritize willpower versus self-compassion. But it is something that if you don't have it, and you do have it, just probably not enough, to be honest.

39:09Tiffany Aliche:For it's quiet. So people have, exactly. You know, the older you get, there's a reason why we don't have a bunch of 40-year-olds going to the club anymore. There's self-compassion. We don't want to stay up late. Right? We want our sleep. Right? But I think that, you know, it does start somewhere. and what you wouldn't judge someone else for, you really don't want to judge yourself for, right? And so if someone comes to you and says, listen, I am in this job and I really want to make more money and I can and it's the same thing and I feel like I'm letting myself down, how would you treat them? Are you going to be like, well, you don't have enough willpower and you have compassion for them.

39:49And so that's the same thing you should be offering to yourself.

39:52Tiffany Aliche:Well, and we're in a society that upholds patriarchy and white supremacy and capitalism and all of those love willpower, which is push through, doesn't matter how hard you're working, doesn't matter if you're injured, doesn't matter if you have to want it the most. Versus self-compassion feels very soft. It feels very communal or it's so different than what we've been taught in the society we exist in. Even you were talking in this episode, you're like, it sounds cheesy, but, and I think that is what self-compassion is, is that we all feel kind of embarrassed about it. Like, I don't know if it'll be out by the time this episode is out, but I just recorded an episode a couple hours ago about how we have to, like, talk to ourselves out loud and, like, almost parent our inner child sometimes out loud.

40:42Tiffany Aliche:And the thing I had to say is the things that sound crazy or that people would see and go, that's insane, those are sometimes the things that are actually helpful or the very things you feel embarrassed about. and self-compassion kind of feels embarrassing because we've been told by society that you should just suck it up buttercup every single time yeah I do think that there's definitely that misconception around self-compassion but for those of you that want to improve your own self-compassion I would want you to replace that term with willpower right so when I think about self-compassion. Seriously, right?

41:23Like, I mean, that means you have to start saying yes to yourself. You need to start saying no to other people. It means that you need to start saying, making the decisions that might hurt other people's feelings. Like, no, maybe you're not going to go to Bali next week, and maybe you're not going to go because you have other things to prioritize, right? And really putting yourself first. I call it more of a self-centeredness as opposed to like selfishness, which people confuse the two terms, but you do want to center yourself and ground yourself. And that's where that self-compassion and that discipline and that willpower should be first.

41:57And the rest will follow.

41:59Tiffany Aliche:A common thing that we see is a boom bust cycle of getting your finances together, feeling motivated. Then something comes up, an emergency, go back into bad patterns again. and then you avoid your finances entirely. And then an emergency happens where you realize you have to get back. It keeps going on this cycle of caring and then not caring after something happens. What's happening neurologically in these boom-bust patterns? So it's back to habits, right? We always have known that there's a brain-body connection, right? And most recently, there's a body-mind connection. And so, we work and we behave automatically, right?

42:49And so, there's this automaticity to it where your body's used to doing the same things and the brain is, it kind of shuts off, right? Because it's like, we know what to do. We know how to go to work and all of those things. Now, when the brain says, oh, I have a baby habit that I'm going to try. I'm going to get my systems together. The body's like, okay, we'll try this out. Sends that messages up through the limbic system to the brain. Brain sends it back down. We're doing the system and all the things. And then just like you mentioned, something chaotic happens, something stressful happens.

43:24And then the body's like, let me take over because your brain is elsewhere. And we go back to that automatic way that we're used to being, right? And so So that's why when we're talking about progress, it's not as linear as people would love it to be. OK, it's going to be up and then it's going to be down, but it's going to be like the stock market. It never crashes back to zero, not all the way. Right. It just is going to crash a little bit. But it's so important that you continue on that journey. It's like when people say, oh, I fell off the bandwagon. It's like, well, was a horse tired? Right.

44:05Does a horse need to take a sleep or a drink, right? Let's get back on and be on your way. And so, but that is, you can expect that to happen. I don't think that can be avoided. The only time I've ever seen people kind of take up a habit and then just sustain it without flaw is just when you hit your 20s, when you're just coming out of that Superman complex that I can do anything, they can typically do it because they have their hormones and all of that is a little bit different. But when you hit 30, let me tell you, any new habit is going to take a lot of work and you should expect some failures.

44:42Tiffany Aliche:It was a transformation for me a couple of years ago when I realized as a business owner, my job is not to try to prevent every emergency because I cannot prevent every emergency. My job is to learn how to respond to it. And I think that that alone has been so helpful, both in the running of my business and also in my life. Like, I cannot prepare emotionally, physically, financially for every single thing that's going to happen. Even if I am perfect, which by the way, I'm not. Even if I make every perfect decision, there's so much out of my control. So rather than trying to control what you can't control, control your response to it, I think has been so helpful for me.

45:22Tiffany Aliche:Okay, so you mentioned 20s, 30s, and we talked before you hopped on the mic. When we share the age of our audience and how we often talk about money in decades, right? Money in your 20s, money in your 30s, 40s. You brought up how our emotional regulation changes over the years, and you just brought it up again. Can we discuss that more? What is changing as we age? Let's start from the end, right? When we hit like our 70s and 80s, you find the folks that are the most wise. They actually are unfiltered. They are unfiltered. They don't care what anybody thinks. They're going to do whatever they want, right?

46:01Their emotional regulation is set because they realize they don't need to carry the emotions of others. And they can actually be their truest selves, right? And so we see the most relaxation in that age group, right? And then when you hit your 50s and 60s, you also start to realize you actually start to feel like an adult, right? You're heading towards the end of middle age there. You are starting to feel like I am in a little bit more control and I don't have to be as on edge. And so when we're thinking about financial decisions and things like that, listen, there's folks in their 20s that are brilliant, right, with their finances, same with their 30s and all of that.

46:40For the average person, though, they are doing the standard things, the passive things, what they're given by their employers, they're not taking additional action. And the reason why is because they have so much loaded responsibility, right? Right. 30s is really where everything gets loaded on you. You're no longer dancing on bar tables anymore. You have to start being an adult. And so there's a lot that comes with that. Right. Impressing the boss, making sure that your life is on track. And so when you're cognitively overloaded, you may not be thinking about the long term in 50 years. And so the regulation between 30s and 40s is much different because it is a decade of stress.

47:23And then for women specifically, when they hit their 40s to 50s, perimenopause symptoms start to hit in. And unfortunately, it's not until recently we've started even talking about that, right? It was just happening and people were just kind of navigating that on their own, right? And so there's now a flux of symptoms of depression, the brain fog and all of that. And so it's kind of like, well, I just need to take care of myself and I can't really think about finances, which you mentioned earlier, until it is a fire right in front of me, it's not going to be something that is more pronounced. Right.

48:00And so it's really about thinking, OK, I know that I'm going to be going through these shifts and this is these are the things that I need to be doing. And these are the things that I need to be deciding ahead of time because the shifts are going to happen whether you like them or not. And of course, in your 20s, this is when we're the most reckless. We don't even develop our frontal lobes until we're 25. So any decisions we're making before then, I am really curious what's happening there. But with a lot of guidance, of course, it will work out.

48:29Tiffany Aliche:When we think about those transition periods, 29 into 30, 39 into 40, how can we best prep for the new stage in our life from a brain -body connection standpoint? So the way that we would prepare is really to assess our environment, right? The best thing that I could tell people to do, whether you're in your 20s, 30s, or 40s, is to think about what are the main things that cause the most amount of stress. We really need to have a plan for that, whether it's finances or not, because if there's no plan, then you will stay stagnant in that space. So I would say if you want to prepare financially, you want to have a goal, a micro goal ahead of time.

49:23But also think about what are the things that are going to prevent you from getting there? Because there's going to be things that are going to prevent you from getting there. If it's your support system that's like, well, I don't think you can do it, then we need to talk about how they are not your support system, right? We need to talk about all of those sort of barriers. So it's really doing a self-assessment of where you're at in your environment, your support system, and all of those sort of environmental barriers before we can even start preparing. Yeah.

49:51Tiffany Aliche:And I think all of this is how do you take stock without it becoming a shame spiral? Like, how do you take stock of what's going on? Oh, are my friendships or my relationships actually supportive? and if they're not rather than going oh my gosh how did I stay in this relationship for so long or why can't I I'm not I guess I'm not good enough to have like good friends like rather than it becoming this thing of shame or identity you have to view it as data like I joke about being an anthropologist in your own life but like that's the way I try to communicate it with people is it's just like oh interesting okay when I got a promotion at work my friend got weird about that and was not supportive of that.

50:38Tiffany Aliche:Hmm, interesting. Like it's just another data point for you to think about to inform your decisions. It should not be and does not have to be a personal criticism or a moral failing that is your fault. Absolutely. And I think for so many people that are emotionally intelligent, sophisticated, they know that, but there's something about it, right? And that's kind of where the therapy comes in. right? It's so much easier said than done. It's so funny when people are like, don't care what other people think. It's like, really? Is that what you're doing? It's amazing to me that that sometimes, you know, is advice, right?

51:20It's not to care what other people think. I mean, I would love that. I would love that for you and everyone else and myself. But the fact is, is that we care. My theory is, though, how much are we going to care? How much stock are we going to put into this? How much effort are we going to put into this? As a neuropsychologist, as a rehab neuropsychologist, it's always about protecting the brain and cognitively offloading, right? We're not going to try to stress the brain out. We already know that chronic anxiety, chronic stress shrinks the hippocampus, shrinks your ability to recall things, right?

51:52And so we really need to be thinking about your own health, right? And so, yes, doing that self-evaluation, no, you're not going to cut off all your friends, right? But obviously, you're going to reassess what kind of friend are they going to be. We just ended up talking about the lifespan. It's always interesting to me when people are like, I have had my friend from kindergarten. We're still best friends. I was like, really? How does that work? Because just decade through decade, right, we lose people and we gain people, right? And there's friends that are good for certain things, but I do think that we do have this mindset of we have this one person, and because we met them and anchored to them in this one way, there are all of our things, right?

52:34So when you think about when you were like 10 years old, this was your playdate person and your study person and your calling on the phone person. But when you think about your life now, you have friends that they will talk to you for hours on the phone, but try to get them to go out for dinner. It's just not going to happen. And then there's other friends that will drop everything for you, but they're not going to go on that vacation. Or the ones that are so funny and you love to be around, but when you talk to them about something serious, they can't tolerate. And so really knowing, engaging what you share with people and really thinking about what your support looks like is also going to help you when you're thinking about this is how I need to be healthy to make financial decisions.

53:21It's not just finances. It's everything around you in context.

53:26Tiffany Aliche:What you were just talking about with friendships, I also think about with like dreams or goals is you hear, especially the Olympics are about to start and they'll probably already be starting by the time this episode comes out. But it's like, you're going to hear the story of the athletes who are like, I started when I was four years old. And this has been my dream for 30 years is to be a figure skater. And like, there's going to be some people like that. Absolutely. And also, you're allowed to grow and change. Like, I have a theater degree from a very young age. I thought I'm going to be an actor.

53:58Tiffany Aliche:This is the only thing I can possibly be. And then I didn't do that. And do I miss it? Do I grieve that dream sometimes? Absolutely. Am I also pretty fucking happy with the career I chose? Yeah. And I think it's all of this is just a reminder of how hesitant we are as human beings because our brains are wired this way. how hesitant we are to change, like how hesitant we are to actually make lasting change because change is uncomfy. Like it's not fun. It's not a good time, especially in the early days. It's like, yeah, it's deeply uncomfortable. And I think that that is the feeling so many people who are listening have is they know something needs to change.

54:49Tiffany Aliche:But again, they know, but the doing is so hard. So everything you've talked about already is so impactful and helpful for just speaking more kindly to yourself, helping regulate your own nervous system and your own emotions. My last question for you is if someone is feeling disconnected or distrustful of themselves financially, what is the first step to rebuilding that relationship? I would say do it in partnership, right? In whatever they feel comfortable with. If you don't trust yourself, borrow someone else's trust, right? And so that could be seriously, I mean, that could be either with a financial coach, that could be with a therapist that, but I don't think it's something that you should DIY, right?

55:41Because you're going to be battling your own internal thoughts and your own internal narratives, right? And so for those of you that are like, well, I'm not that bad, but I still want to make change, but you do have those shame cycles. What I do want, encourage people to do is really start from where you are today and then make the progress and only look back to today. We're not looking back to what happened like six months ago, three months ago, six years ago, because that keeps you in that shame cycle, right? We're only, we're starting today and we're going to look back from there. So those are the two things I would recommend is staying present and then also seeking partnership with a professional.

56:21Tiffany Aliche:This was such a valuable conversation that I know people are going to come back to time and time again. I would love if people listening shared this with friends. That would be my dream is being able to, again, have that community and have conversations about everything they just learned. Thank you for joining us. Plug away, my friend. Where can people find out more about you? You can find out about me at drnicolemurray.com. I'm actually launching a YouTube channel relatively shortly. You can also find me there where I talk about emotional regulation, neuropsychology, and all of the fun cognitive things.

57:00Tiffany Aliche:That's amazing. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, produced by Her First 100K. If you love this show and want to keep supporting feminist media, please subscribe or follow us on your preferred podcasting platform or on YouTube. Your support helps us continue to bring this content to you for free. If you're looking for resources, tools, and education, including all of the resources mentioned in this episode, head to herfirst100k.com slash ffpod. If you love Financial Feminist and you're listening, so I hope you do, we've got something to take your learning even deeper from the podcast, especially if you've ever felt like personal finance is a confusing maze.

57:36Tiffany Aliche:My book, Financial Feminist, Overcome the Patriarchy's Bullshit to Master Your Money and Build a Life You Love, is out now. It is a New York Times bestseller that has sold nearly 300 ,000 copies, and it is not just another financial guide. It's everything you need to get better with money step by step, but through the signature feminist lens that you know and love here at Her First 100K. There is so much in the book that we've never discussed on the podcast. There are homework assignments, there are deep dive lessons, and there's even more information that you've never heard of here on the show.

58:01Tiffany Aliche:You can get your copy of Financial Feminist wherever you get your books. And if you are listening on Spotify right now and are a premium member, you can get the audiobook read by me for free. You can get signed copies and learn where it's sold at herfirst100k.com slash ffpod.