1015.News: PayPal launches BNPL in Canada, Coinbase expands into current accounts - and financial education hits the classroom

28:33Yeah, so this is a good question. And you know, this is a question of, sometime in financial services, you don't want, so, well, most of the time when you think about user experience, you want to remove friction. You want people to go fast. And sometimes in financial services, it's good to add friction. I don't know, you don't want to sell your house in one click. It must take one week and even one month and that's fine with that. And so, well, it really depends the amount. If you want, again, to buy a bike to go to work, maybe you shouldn't spend one week for that, but maybe 10 seconds is too fast, so it really depends.

29:19Yeah, definitely. That kind of almost deliberate sort of speed bumps to add to the friction to make people sort of consider what they're doing can be useful in some cases. Josh, coming back to you, sort of what is, you sort of don't think it's going to make a huge amount of difference on the merchant side. And if you were Klana, let's say, or any one of the players that are already in the space, are you worried about this? Like, is this just healthy competition? And what do you think? Great question. I'm not so familiar with their offers. I haven't looked into the other buy now, pay later offerings in a couple of years.

30:01And the first question I have is, are there some of these that are free? And so is PayPal really doing a big shift or is it just new for them to be offering this? I don't know. But it would be the first thing that I would think of. but secondly I do think that Klarna have built brands with their consumers, their view that's more almost a super app in many ways and therefore if you're used to using one or another I'm not sure you'll very easily switch to another, you do have some type of loyalty and some greater value in that ecosystem so I wouldn't be terrified in that sense and from the merchant perspective It's always great if your customer can come in and spend more on a transaction and defer that payment.

30:50It's a positive. But I see this as being a bit as a financial engineering. You're making someone pay a bit more now rather than later. Well, that's going to catch up to you in a while. And so, for example, a normal behavior around the holidays is you start saving throughout the year so that you do have that outflow to spend at Christmas. or the other holiday events. Well, now if you're paying this for the next couple of weeks or months after the holidays, you just have less for next year to come. So financial engineering doesn't add value to society. It's not injecting new capital. You're just using it in different ways.

31:32Just moving the same money at different points in the year and different pace. In terms of the sort of broader landscape, Obviously, in the UK, there's been a lot of push for regulation of Buy Now, Pay Later, kind of putting it sort of akin to like the credit laws in the US is a little bit more incremental. Do you know where Canada is likely to fall on this? Is there a strong kind of argument for it in the same way that people get very bullish on the fact that Buy Now, Pay Later should be regulated over here? I do believe they need to comply to a lot of the consumer protection acts that are in place.

32:15And there are some minimal protections that do protect consumers. Historically, one of the things that has been disliked by Buy Now Pay Later is that the loans don't show up on the credit bureau reports. And therefore, when you're underwriting your customer for other assets and loans, you don't have a full picture of their spending. So that's something that's been evolving and that's beginning to be added to the credit bureaus. Well, thank you so much. I think we'll keep an eye on this one, see if it really does make a difference or not, as the case may be. And kind of keep an eye on this one as the sort of festive spending period is about to kick off.

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34:17Before we dive back into the news, a quick word about our latest insights episode. Business onboarding shouldn't be this hard. But for mid-market companies, multi-entity structures, borderless founders, and outdated KYC make it a nightmare. Host Benjamin Ensor and experts from 3S Money unpack the missing middle. Offshore banking 2.0 and reveal how fintechs can finally fix one of the industry's biggest headaches. Tune in and see how the future of business onboarding is being built. Find it in the same podcast feed as this one. And now back to the news. And our next story is that Coinbase launches interest-bearing savings accounts in the UK.

34:57The historian Finextra, Coinbase is launching a UK savings account that offers 3.75 % AER interest with instant access, no minimum balance and full protection by the financial services compensation scheme. The product follows Coinbase's February 2025 registration with the FCA as a crypto asset firm, which makes the UK its largest international market. The account is built in partnership with ClearBank and offers seamless fiat to crypto bridging, positioning Coinbase in direct competition with fintech super app peers such as Revolut. Coinbase describes the move as a bridge between traditional finance and the crypto economy, allowing users to earn interest on fiat while accessing crypto services on the same platform.

35:44So there's quite a lot in that one. Mike perhaps coming to you first on this what was your take on this there's two very big brands kind of coming together with a particularly high savings rate in the current environment what do you think about that does that make this product particularly desirable yeah I mean this is an advertiser's wet dream right I mean it's like oh this is two big brands built with hundreds of millions of pounds or dollars of brand power being seen through the bull and the sort of different cycles, ups and downs. I think this is just a marketing wrapper, really. I don't think there's particularly anything exciting about this.

36:33I mean, just as a quick backstory, I know an awful amount of this because Stoa initially started as a stablecoin origination company, which not a lot of people know. So we were going to do pound-backed stablecoins and dollar-backed stablecoins before stablecoins were cool. So I know an awful amount of this. We were working with some very, very bright people, sadly. And we were working very closely with the regulators. But it's just the climate both in the US and UK was not there yet. Still not there yet. So I think this is Coinbase's way to I think it's more a regulatory play alongside marketing play where they can see, okay, well, look, if we can get our brand name out there with the wider fiat market and get them to start interacting with Coinbase, the brand, in some capacity, and then at some point, oh, well, I can buy something useful with my stablecoin, then I'm brilliant.

37:35So you think this is to attract new users rather than give existing ones a bonus. 100%. Look, if you are already operating in DeFi and TradFi simultaneously, you're already very savvy. So there's nothing, no news, right? If you operate in the DeFi space and you are really a, you know, yield farming and doing all that fun stuff, you're like, 3.5%, what's that? You know, they look down and they're like, oh, whatever. So it's nothing new and exciting. So it's really for what the DeFi crowd would call normies, right? It's really for the normies to kind of come on board and open a Coinbase account.

38:10So it's the best marketing tool they could have ever done into the traditional finance world. Okay, I understand. Yeah, that is a good point. You mentioned that kind of regulatory play. Like how much do you think having that FSCS protection adds that kind of element of credibility, of trust to the quote-unquote normies that maybe are a little bit more risk-averse to the kind of, you know typical perception of the crypto space like do you think that's the kind of like gold seal on this 100 you know the stowa provides all the deposits eligible deposits fsc is protected and that's there's a reason why right so uh we're not going into trading and because if you want to go after a mass market you've got to make it as safe for them and you've got to hold on to certain keywords people are very time poor um and so it's really about giving them the buzzwords that they're and go, okay, like that, know that, safe, right?

39:07Here's the money, right? So I think FSC is definitely being used in the right way. Okay, great. And then, Nico, coming to you, obviously this has been developed in partnership with Clearbank, like a big sort of UK clearing bank and house. What do you think that partnership means for the wider landscape in terms of these two big brands coming together in a partnership like this? Well, first, just to talk about my end customers, because my end customers are small and medium enterprises. It's interesting to see they are not interesting in crypto so far. So we have, again, 100 ,000 of them working.

39:52We provide the banking services to them. And in five years, we've had zero demand for crypto. So maybe it will happen one day or another, but it's not that. And SMBs are normies, as Mike said previously. But yeah, what I find interesting is, of course, we have two brands bundling banking services. And this is something that I find fascinating, because if you look at the fintechs in the years 2010s, It was all about unbundling, you know, unbundling banking services. There was a startup, there were fintech only for accepting unlike payment like Stripe, for making international payment like Wise.

40:41And really the word was unbundling, unbundling. Do only one financial service and do it the best way possible. And since the year 2020, I could see, you know, again, it's interesting to rebundle banking services and so that's why I think it's very interesting to see two brands with the help of a banking as a service provider bundling again banking services and well if I look at what we provide it's a bit the same for us and we provide we build a lot ourselves as one so we provide payment accounts with cards so we are directly connected to Mastercard for instance. We process all of our SEPA payments by ourselves but well when it comes to international payments we do it with WISE and nobody sees it and when it comes to accepting payments we do it with Stripe and again it's something that nobody sees but yeah that's really how most financial institutions offer bundling services by cooperating with other fintech.

41:53This is how it works. Definitely. And like the better, oh sorry, the less that you know about it, the better because it means that it's working, right? Like that's the best bit. And most of the time in order to do that, the best way is to, it's better if you don't have to do two KYCs, of course, or three KYCs. This is the interest of having a big partnership. And if you don't have to move money from one service to another, if it's totally transparent for the end customers, these are the two only big things you have to do when you do a partnership with another fintech. You don't have to think about many, many things but that.

42:31And well, one last thing about this saving account. It's interesting to see that this is really something that, so SMEs are not very keen about crypto, but they are interested in saving accounts for sure. And this is something that is really a hot topic in Europe. You can see many digital native banks offering this kind of interest bearing account. And interestingly, there was a nice European fintech, Spico, who raised$20 million one month ago. It's really embedded finance, but embedded finance only for saving accounts. So if you want to work with them, I think that's a very interesting startup.

43:19Brilliant. Thank you. And Josh, coming to you, obviously you mentioned kind of in the earlier story around like Klarna becoming a super app and offering kind of more capabilities under their umbrella. Clearly, that's what Coinbase is trying to do here. And, you know, the story even points towards them being in direct competition with Revolut. To Mike's point, I don't know if that's a marketing point to kind of try and force a competition with Revolut rather than it being real. But what's your take on that in terms of them becoming a sort of full stack financial platform and the opportunities that that might unlock for someone like a Coinbase?

43:55I think it makes a ton of sense. And we've seen the digital asset champions, whether it's Coinbase, Binance or others, gradually make more and more moves into the traditional financial services world. in some markets offering credit cards and other banking accounts and products. And it's just natural in this business model. Most people know that as a bank, it's unprofitable to offer your client only one product. And that's why you have these big organizations of multiple lines of business that evolve over time to go and make that investment and that cost of acquisition worthwhile. And so it's only natural for some of these digital asset champions who have millions of users to start to think about how do I monetize them?

44:44What other products can I sell? And as they build up that trust, they build up that credibility. More customers are willing to shift some of their traditional banking needs and traditional assets to their platform. And that's what we're starting to see here. in Canada Coinbase recently announced a similar interest rate on USDC deposits a similar type of idea although it's not on fiat currency but the notion of Coinbase will pay you a high interest rate to move your savings account over in one form or another is a recurring theme and the point about the positioning themselves as a competitor to Revolut does make a lot of sense I think more people in the traditional banking landscape have to start to take this more seriously, that the biggest fintechs by users are not the revolute, starlights, monzels of this world.

45:41It's the Binance, the Coinbase, and some of these providers that have multiple millions of additional customers. And if they can convince their customers to shift their SEAT banking needs to them, it could be a big shift both for banks and for syntax. Yeah, that's such a great point. The kind of banking landscape, the banking battlefield is completely changing if these guys who already have so many customers get involved. I know, like, you know, five, ten years ago, people were scared of big tech doing that and making that move and bringing their customers. But actually now it very much could be these guys that end up championing it in this landscape.

46:21That's such a good point. I'm going to move us to our next story, which is that new UK startup Stoa launches to offer an alternative to traditional interest based savings. This was on Fintech Features. Stoa is a newly launched UK fintech startup offering Stoapop savings accounts that instead of conventional interest, rewards users with lifestyle perks such as subscriptions, devices and travel when they save. The company targets the large pool of UK savers sitting on idle cash, reportedly over£600 billion, who are reluctant to invest but seek better alternatives to low interest savings. Stoa's model positions itself as a third destination for money, meaning not spending, not investing, but saving with instant tangible rewards, linking deposits to merchant perks via partnerships.

47:11But, you know, don't take my word for it. We're delighted to have Mike here to tell us more about Stoa. So please can you sort of walk us through the vision behind Stoa and why you kind of picked this kind of niche to focus on? Yeah, no, absolutely. um so stowa's uh vision is to transform um your idle cash into new possibilities now that on a more immediate basis his mission is to allow your make your savings uh power your lifestyle now i was just getting fed up with all the narrative i've employed a lot of people over my 15 years of agency life and and every time you give somebody a raise uh they're still a dissatisfied after a few months, right?

47:59It's like, why is your money not working hard enough for you, right? I mean, so there's a fundamental problem with confidence with money, spending money, and not feeling it's actually working hard enough. And so that's driven a lot of people in very risky things. So high-risk trading, you know, crypto to a great extent, even though it has got good blockchain solutions. but generally the hype is all about, you know, X percentage returns, which is just not sustainable. So Stoa fundamentally was born out of that frustration that everyone just talks, is a talking shop, how can we actually provide a solution and a choice for anyone, whether it's a consumer or a small business.

48:44If you're sitting on idle cash, you now have a choice and that's what Stoa is trying to do for you. and we are not trying to compete with banks. I'm a guy who likes to win with everyone. So it's a win-win-win situation. So we work with banks, we work with infrastructure players, we work with merchants. We're in the middle and we want to unlock value for everyone who has idle cash, whether it's a consumer or a business. So if I may just say that a lot of people say, well, everyone should be investing. Yes, there's a heavy government narrative around that as well. So again, going back to being a student of behavior psychology, my father was a banker, and it's quite funny, he's a retired old man now.

49:28I said to him, Dad, give me 10 grand. I'll give you 7%. You know, when we were doing sort of R &D research for the product, he said, no chance. And I was like, oh, bloody hell, he's a tough crowd. And then I went, Dad, give me 10 grand. I'll give you free pet insurance. And he went, what do you mean? you give me free pet insurance got it right so so so the idea is that there are two sides of the human brain even if you are an intelligent savvy investor uh you have a optimized portfolio you still have some bit of cash doing nothing so i joke with everybody you know we're meeting partners i was in vegas um a cio of snowflake uh went on video saying it's one of the best innovations of Vegas Money 2020.

50:14And I was like, wow, this is fascinating. We didn't even pay him to say that, which is brilliant. And it's fascinating that this is traveling across cultures, across countries, because fundamentally, I said, Stoa should not exist. The only reason it exists is there is this behavior psychology, which is, for whatever reason, whether that's apathy, fear of investing, or just pure indifference, right? So they're sitting on about 614 billion as consumers here in the uk about 200 250 billion depending on research as smbs or smes here in the uk in the us it's about a trillion dollars of smbs just sitting on idle cash not doing anything 35 million so what we are saying is hey park it with us full fscs protection um here in the uk and in return you get stuff rather than getting interest and uh yeah that's the idea i mean it couldn't be easier, save and get stuff.

51:08But it's fundamentally opposed to buy now, pay later, where you have to spend, spend, spend to get stuff instantly. With Stowa, you save, save, save, and get stuff instantly. It's also slightly different to the big Californian wave, which we saw maybe five years ago, where it was save now, but buy later. Nobody is waiting to buy later. Which world do we live in? All those startups will fail, right? So we need to be in the world where people feel they got that instant hit. And hopefully Stowe is going to do that. But fundamentally making you become a better saver. So the last thing I'd say to that is it's like getting a kid to eat its peas and greens and getting the kid to say, hey, eat your peas.

51:51And they eat the peas and go, wow, was that peas I just ate? And yeah, so it's that. So nobody really enjoys saving because it's such a long-term drought, have a little interest coming in. Here you get the instant gratification up front. Amazing. Well, thank you for that outline. Josh, maybe coming to you, obviously in the US in particular, we're well aware of sort of like loyalty programs and rewards and those kind of things. But what about the Canadian market? Do you think something like this could work? What's your take on it? Yeah, Canadians love their rewards and loyalty programs and we're one of the markets with huge adoptions of credit cards for that reason.

52:33We have some of the highest interchange in the world and therefore some of the best rewards and that definitely fuels that more than 80 % of Canadians have a credit card. And contrary to popular belief in those stats that we often see that young people don't want credit cards, actually the 18 to 34-year-old demographic in Canada uses their credit card more often than the 55 plus. age group and so we definitely like rewards and we'd like to get things in return so we'll see how that translates into your eventual entrance into the Canadian market might. How about the sort of savings market in Canada is that like you know it's well documented that you know significant proportion of UK like don't have any savings or have limited savings is that sort of reflective in your market as well?

53:26Yeah, that's fairly similar. Many people don't have a healthy amount of savings and it's a common problem. So yes, we're in a similar situation. And the rate that's offered to customers for checking our savings account are also fairly low. So there is opportunity there to think about this differently. Great. Nico, what was your take? How do you feel about the sort of gamification of savings and sort of rewarding good behavior, I guess? At first, I really love the way Mike Pitch is a startup. And I really understand all of this behavioral psychology. So I love the idea. And I think I would like to try it myself.

54:19Anyway, I'm just thinking about, again, my own end customers. who are SMBs. So you could think that as business owners, you're more rational than individuals, but actually I'm not that sure. And there's a lot of idle cash as well in SMBs. So Mike, if ever you have, I don't know, some ideas, I'm not sure they could be interested in Spotify. Well, why not actually? So yeah, I'm sure there is a lot to do, not only for individuals in that market, But I'm sure that this company would work as well everywhere in Europe. So it's not like a British or an American thing, behavioral psychology. It's the same everywhere.

55:08So it will work everywhere. Calm down, Nico. Mike has to come to Canada before the rest of Europe, one step at a time. Mike, they're fighting over here. I know, I know. This seems to be amazing. No, to Nico's point, no, absolutely. SMBs is a huge, huge market. And we've done an enormous sort of research around that. And they are very similar in terms of their behavior patterns as consumers. So we'd love to do something with Swan. So, yeah, let's chat offline. There you go. You're the first French customer, first Canadian customer. Do you know what's funny is because I built so many fintechs and so many that I said no to working with.

55:50And one of the core reasons was unless they have raised a substantial amount of money, there was no way they would ever, especially if you're in a deposit-taking game, right? I mean, that's why Coinbase's whole game around acquisition. It's so expensive. Look at what Revolut is doing, right? You get an email every now and then going, I'll give you 600 quid if you refer a small business to me. 600 quid, right? And then that's just to get an account opened. Then on top of that, you need that small business to put some money in it so they can make some interchange, right? So the actual cost of getting a SMB to put 10 ,000 quid in an account is so high, right?

56:31For consumer, they do it in anything between 150 to 200 and stuff like that. So the point being that either there were two types of businesses, either there were fintechs who were, we've raised so much money and we want to get into the deposit taking business. Okay, sure makes sense. or they were who had amazing distribution partnership networks. And I think we want to be the latter. We don't want to fight with anyone. We actually want to empower people like Swan, empower banks like Josh's where they go, well, just put Stowa in it. And one of the feedbacks we got from American credit unions and community banks, they were like, we're a small player, right?

57:10We're a small team. So we were like, oh, would you like to white label it, gray label it? And their feedback was, no, no, no, no. We need your name there. And we were like, why? So that people think that when they want stuff for their saving, they think of Stoat. We don't want them to think of a savings account because it confuses them. I was like, wow, this is brilliant. Let's go. So yeah, so it's a bit of a honeymoon period for us. Let's see how long it goes. Awesome. Well, congratulations on the launch. And yeah, do come back and let us know how it is going. On that note, we're just going to take a quick pause here back shortly.

57:50Okay, now for a quick look at one story we don't have time to cover in full, which is that 59 % of UK SME founders abandoned loan applications midway. This was on tech funding news. New research from fintech lenders Juice Ventures found that nearly 60 % of UK small business founders abandoned loan applications due to confusion, fear, and shame, despite SMEs making up 99 % of UK businesses. The Bank of England estimates that this contributes to a£22 billion SME funding gap. Founders with financial education request up to 48.6 % more funding and raise twice as much capital, highlighting the link between knowledge, confidence, and borrowing.

58:35Juice recommends plain language tools, financial education campaigns, advisory support, confidence-aware lending products and regulatory incentives to tackle behavior barriers. To tell us more about this new research, we have a voice note from the CEO of Juice, Catherine Chan. Hi, I'm Catherine Chan, CEO and co-founder of Juice. We've just released a major research report that I think every FinTech founder and lender needs to read. It's called Blind the Gap, and it uncovers something shocking. 59 % of UK small business founders are abandoning loan applications halfway through the process. This isn't about credit scores or business viability.

59:20It's about shame, confusion, and fear of rejection. Over half of the founders we surveyed said they associate borrowing with failure. 42 % feel embarrassed to ask basic questions and nearly a quarter have signed finance agreements that they didn't fully understand. The result? A£22 billion funding gap that's holding back Britain's entrepreneurial economy. But here's what gives me hope. 60 % said they would consider borrowing if better educational resources were available. 82 % want plain language terms. And research from Oxford University shows that founders with financial education raise twice as much capital.

1:00:06There's a design failure in lending and fintechs are uniquely positioned to fix it. We need to build products that deliver clarity, control and confidence, not just capital. The full report is available now at Juices website and I would love to hear what you think. So thank you to Catherine for that. This is super interesting and as Catherine says, do go and seek out the whole report for all the details. But for me, the shame element that Catherine mentions is the most interesting and probably the most underreported when it comes to business owners or indeed anyone's relationship with loans in particular and money more broadly.

1:00:48And it really touches on the emotional side of our relationships with money and taboos around admitting that you might be struggling or you need an injection of cash or frankly, that you don't understand what you're signing up for, which is also super relevant to the conversation around financial education that we had at the very top of the show. If you're not taught in schools or anywhere else, it's kind of incumbent on you to do your own research and learn. And then it can be difficult to get access to the right information or to ask the right questions. While fintech endeavors to break down those barriers and use inclusive and accessible language is still a way to go, but it's nice to see the intention is there from both sides.

1:01:23And if you want to hear more about how UK SMEs can be further supported, then you want to come along to AfterDart next week as Alica Banks CEO Richard Davies will be on our panel. Grab your ticket in the show notes below this episode. And finally, now time for something a little bit different to finish this week's news show. This is Fintech Insider Traitors vs Faithfuls. So we know many of you in our Fintech Insider community have been hooked on the conclusion of the UK version of the celebrity traitors. If you haven't seen it, the series follows a group of celebrities divided into traitors and faithfuls, with the traitors working to deceive and the faithfuls trying to uncover and banish them.

1:02:00Inspired by the show, we thought we'd play our own version today, but with a fintech twist. we've asked our panel to call out some of the most faithful and traitorous behaviors in the world of fintech so for example our hidden fees or opaque t's and c's say or saying that you're a bank when you're not traitorous behavior and vice versa are you a faithful if your brand has transparent comms earned wage access and secure kycs for example um panel what do you think what would be the ultimate fintech traitor behavior um mike what do you think and firstly have you seen the celebrity traitors because this falls down if you haven't i know of traitors um being a founder i don't have much time to watch all the episodes but it's a big debate in the family whenever i meet them and celebrity traitor was brought up the other weekend so yes um thinking on my feet here.

1:02:54I would say being on the topic of buy now, pay later and Black Friday on its way, you know, sadly, a lot of the stuff that will be sold to us as necessity is traitorous, I think, in many ways. So please do consume as... I love Nico's point about friction. I can talk about it just as a separate thing. I think we need friction in certain things. So that's traitor-ish. So be careful when holiday shopping and consuming. And the faithful thing to do is slightly contrarian view, but I think FCA, especially the regulators here in the UK, taking a slower adoptive stance towards crypto is actually a good thing.

1:03:50even though I'm a guy who had to pivot because of that. But I think it's a good thing for a wider public benefit. Interesting. Okay, thank you. Josh, how about you? What would be fintech trader behavior versus fintech faithful? I think top of my list of fintech trader behavior is selling to your customers that you'll never do the things that the banks do, like charge a monthly fee and so on, and the other elements. And what we've seen, at least in our market, is once the fintech starts to scale, they almost always revert to that. So you criticize it, but three years down the road, you're at the same place.

1:04:30In terms of a good behavior, I would give a pat on the back to anyone that's due, any company that's doing something that's bad for them in the short term, but good for the long-term loyalty of their clients. I think there's many examples of that, and that's something that I applaud. Fantastic. And Nico? Well, so I don't know this show. We don't have it in France, but I understand it's a bit of a version of the good, the bad and the ugly. So, well, I can tell you about the ugliest thing I've seen in my career in banking. So I've actually seen banks do this thing, you know, where They process direct debits before incoming transfers, but really on a purpose because they understand that by doing that, the result is that the customer gets pushed into overdraft for no real reason.

1:05:26So it's such a ridiculous thing. And you look at it and you say, well, it's just to take some fees to the end customers. And so this practice has been banished, actually. but this is really something I've seen like it was, you know, a big thing like 10 years ago. That is definitely traitorous behavior. A hundred percent. I think so. So what would be fateful? A hundred percent. And well, if you look at the good, I really like the marketing of a digital native, so not bank because, but they offer accounts in Netherlands. So it's called GoDutch And really their marketing is about being transparent with their customers and sharing the money they get that is opaque.

1:06:18You know, when there is idle money, well, financial institutions make money about it. When there is a card payment, financial institutions make money about it. And their goal is, yeah, to share this money back with their end clients, which is nicer than trying to put them overdraft. Fantastic. Yeah, that is a great example. And just to conclude, we asked our Pulse team here at LMFS for some of their faithful and traitorous behaviors in fintech. And these were their suggestions. So they said, in a similar vein, to what you said, Mike, actually, to be a traitor is savings apps who lower their market leading interest rate, presumably once they've hit critical mass of users.

1:07:00and on the faithful side they shouted out trading 212's 1.5 % cashback feature and its 4 % interest on uninvested cash all the while prioritizing low-cost investing through transparent FX and share lending fees and they also shouted out Monzo and Starling adding a cool status fraud detector into their mobile app which was equally reflected as a new hero feature in the UK feature benchmarking tool on 11FS Pulse. This contributed to their highest score in the benchmarking and it's giving other banks something to aim for. And if you want to learn any more about any of those behaviors, check out our 11FS Pulse report 2025 and we'll leave a link in the show notes to this episode.

1:07:42And equally on social, if you have any other fintech traitor and faithful behaviors to add to the conversation, please do get in touch. But on that note, that concludes this week's Fintech Insider News. Thank you so much to today's guests. Where can people find out a little bit more about you and your companies? Let's start with you, Nico. So you can find out about Swan just on internet, swan.io. And about me, you can find me on LinkedIn, Nicola Benadie. I will answer to your messages. Thank you. Fantastic. Thank you so much. And Mike? Yes, stoa.money. So S-T-O-A dot money. and yeah, look for Mike Saraswatt.

1:08:24There's only one of that on LinkedIn, I suppose. So yeah, you'll find me and I will answer. Excellent. Great suffix. Dot money as well. Josh, how about you? National Bank can be found at nbc.ca and I can be found on LinkedIn at Joshua Laback. I believe there's only one with an H, so here I am. Fantastic. Everyone's so easy to find. This is great. As for me, you can find me, Laura Watkins on LinkedIn. I believe there is more than one, but only one that works for 11FS. And you can find me on 11FS.com or of course this podcast. Thank you so much for listening to today's FinTech Insider. If you like what you heard, please make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast platform of choice.

1:09:05And if you really like what you heard, why not share the podcast around? And as always, if you want to join the conversation, tell us your FinTech traitor, FinTech faithful traits, find us on social media. Just search for 11FS or FinTech Insider or email podcast at 11fs.com. Thanks again and goodbye.