1050.News: Starling launches UK’s first agentic AI banking, Paymentology’s WhatsApp neobank and Turkey SEPA expansion

26:28like always I said diversity and competition in financial infrastructure can actually be a good thing they tend to drive innovation and improvement over time

26:40Laura Watkins:Can I ask you another question on that? Marisha was talking about how the UK is not in the EU but it is in Sefer this would also allow Turkey to not necessarily be in the union, but also in SEPA. So, Tam, obviously you've mentioned Turkey has been sort of waiting for EU membership for a long time. Does joining SEPA help? Is it a compromise? You know, does it give those economic benefits without the political obligations that Marisha was mentioning? Is that a positive? If Turkey wants to join SEPA, it would likely end up in a position quite to the United Kingdom today. Not a member of European Union, but still a part of the SEPA framework.

27:38So in that sense, I think the United Kingdom actually provides a very relevant reference point here. They have already gone through this dynamic balancing integration with independence. So perhaps they are in a better position to enter. whether CEPA opens the door to global players or still a lot of control.

28:02Laura Watkins:Perhaps we could be the blueprint for Turkey if you do decide to go for it. David, maybe bringing you in just quickly, obviously if we take a stepping back from the payments rails themselves, but kind of looking at that standardization across markets that Marisha was talking about, does this unlock more potential for things like AI, data analysis, et cetera, or does it not really change anything unless everyone's kind of aligned? Yeah, I think any kind of standardization helps when it comes to AI integration into the kind of payments infrastructure, right? Starling is a signatory we've committed to building out Google's agent payments protocol, AP2.

28:47So we've kind of signaled our intent to bring that capability to our own payments processing infrastructure and enable agentic payments and any standardization in that space makes that problem easier. Fantastic.

29:01Laura Watkins:Well, we will obviously keep an eye on this one as it evolves. Cham, maybe to give you the final word on this, is there anything else you think we should know about the prospect of Turkey joining? Or indeed, if you think they ever will. Yeah, I see SEPA and European membership as two very different tracks. SEPA is primarily an economic and operational model, whereas European membership is a much broader political framework. So rather than seeing SEPA as a step towards European membership, I would describe it as a pragmatic bridge. On that, it delivers tangible economic benefits without but requiring full political integration.

29:50That said, it could still become an important milestone along that broader journey.

29:56Laura Watkins:Fantastic. Well, we will keep an eye on that journey. We will see what happens. And if it does come to pass, we'll bring you back to tell us even more about it. But on that note, I'm just going to take a quick pause. We'll be back very shortly. Hey, folks. David Breer here, CEO of 11FS. Here's something you might not know about me. I get a lot of people trying to impersonate me online. Fake profiles, scam emails, the lot. And a big part of that comes from data brokers, hundreds of them quietly collecting and selling your personal information. Your phone number, email, home address, job title, all out there and all fueling identity theft, scam calls and spam.

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31:28Laura Watkins:All right, back to the news. Our next story is that Paymentology has partnered with Chiquamapay to launch Africa's first WhatsApp-based neobank. And the story in the Fintech Times, Paymentology has partnered with African fintech Chiquamapay to launch what is being described as Africa's first WhatsApp-based neobank, allowing users to access financial services directly through messaging rather than a traditional banking app. The platform enables customers to bank, borrow, save, insure, and transact entirely within WhatsApp, removing the need to download a separate app. It is initially targeting users across the Southern African Development Community, SADC, including underserved groups such as migrant workers, informal trainers, and women who are often excluded from traditional financial systems.

32:16Laura Watkins:The partnership leverages paymentology's cloud-based issuing and processing infrastructure, enabling features such as real-time transaction management, debit card issuance, and cross-border payments across multiple markets. So Marisha, let's come to you first. This sounds really interesting. Can you tell us more about that? What does a WhatsApp-based neobank actually mean from a user perspective? How does it work? Yeah, and it's a great question. So we get this all the time. Firstly, it is revolutionary in sub-Saharan Africa and the region. I think for us, it's so important to be a part of initiatives like what Chikwama Pay are doing, because it really is creating, and I always say this, real financial inclusion.

32:55Everyone talks about financial inclusion. This is tangible. It's real. It is, you know, changing the game. So how does it work? So basically, the best thing about Chikwama Pay is customers are using an app that they are already so familiar with, and they trust, right? There's no need to download a separate app and, you know, go through a hefty onboarding process. It really is, okay, I'm in WhatsApp, add Chequama, basically say, I want to become a customer. They do the full onboarding within WhatsApp. And then what happens is in the background, it's, you know, it's so clever because from a customer perspective, it's a conversation.

33:36It's taking banking into a conversational space where people are just talking in layman's terms around, this is what I need. But in the background, what Shikwama Pay are actually doing is they're partnering with both Access Bank and Paymentology, and they're actually creating a bank account in the background, which is a debit account with an IBAN, and then immediately at the same time, they say, okay, Paymentology, create a debit card and link it to this account. So once the customer has registered, they already come out with a bank account, and they also have a debit card linked to that account.

34:11So it is immediate access, right? And I think that's what's so special because it doesn't require customers to, you know, put in a postal address and, you know, get a card delivered. You know, all of those barriers to getting a customer transacting are completely removed. Now, the question that we often get is, oh, but it's in WhatsApp. Like, how does that even work? And the reality is, it's really just sending a message. What is my balance? Send money to this mobile number. Send money to this account number. You know, it really is making banking that simple. But when you talk to Chickamape team, what they really focus on is creating a frictionless, borderless neobank.

34:56And I think that's really important because when you look at friction in Africa, especially when you look at the underserved market, they don't have a lot of options and literacy is really low. but they still have the same needs that every customer has. They need to send money home. They need to send money cross-border. They need to be able to transact for everyday transport, food. But they also need to spend on things like stock. You know, we have females who have started their own businesses where they're selling rice, they're selling potatoes at food markets. And they need a way to get paid and be paid and to make payments in a very, very simple way.

35:33And that's what Chiquamma is solving for. So it's literally registration in WhatsApp. You get your account number, you get your card details, and you're ready to start paying immediately.

35:45Laura Watkins:Amazing. That's very cool. So you're basically just WhatsAppping Chiquamapay. Is that who's like on the receiving end of your WhatsAppping? Yes. Wow. It's like messaging your bank. Imagine banking via, but it's all through a chatbot. But it's WhatsApp, so it's an app that you trust. You already have on your phone. And also every single recipient that you could send money to is also linked to your WhatsApp already. So it's just accessibility from, you know, existing infrastructure. It's really it's using existing infrastructure in such a smart way. Absolutely. Yeah. That kind of whole narrative about meeting users where they already are.

36:22Laura Watkins:And that's like a complete switch of like what particularly in the West we consider to be sort of like normal fintech practice, which is sort of building an app and then moving customers onto it. This is like kind of the absolute flip reverse of that. Have we been focusing on the wrong thing? Have we sort of been, you know, overestimating the importance of the app? Or is this a particular use case for this particular market? Yeah, I think it definitely depends on who is your customer and what are you trying to solve for, right? In Africa, it's more about having access rather than all of the bells and whistles.

37:05It's very simply, I need to make this payment and I need to make it now. I need to make sure that the funds are going from A to B and I can trust that that is happening. So it's less about having lots of different features and lots of different options. It's really just about access anytime, anywhere.

37:24Laura Watkins:Making it as simple as possible to address that literacy gap that you mentioned as well. Exactly. And if you look at the demographics, you know, they're serving underserved communities, low literacy users. They're looking at, you know, that really the lower end of the market. And so for them, it has to be easy. They don't care about all of the, you know, the fancy stuff, the cool apps, the branding. And, you know, for them, it's really, you know, they would never use a super app. And you also have to understand the evolution of their customer base, because these customers have moved from a USSD, you know, feature phone.

37:58solution to WhatsApp. That's already a huge jump for them, right? And so when you think about, you know, for these Chickamapea customers, this is amazing. You know, this is like the best option they would have coming from USSD and SMS banking. So, yeah.

38:14Laura Watkins:Wow. And then obviously, as you mentioned, there's a lot of complexity, the simplicity in the front end and complexity in the back end around kind of cross-border payments, compliance across multiple countries, the card issuing, and kind of obviously, you know, paymentology has been instrumental in that, but kind of what have been the biggest infrastructure challenges in making that work across so many jurisdictions? Yeah, I would say the biggest challenge is obviously working through an existing app like WhatsApp. You don't really have control, right? So WhatsApp pushes, you know, security alerts.

38:46They have different, you know, updates and things like that. So unfortunately, you have to work within, you know, their, you know, their infrastructure. So that's the one, I would say, barrier. They don't have full control over the infrastructure. What's important to note is even though it is banking via WhatsApp and it's very, very simple to the customer, you still have all of the regulatory complexity in the background, right? So you're still having to KYC the customer. You're still having to manage, you know, all of the banking regulations, the cross-border payment regulations, making sure that all of the licenses are still in place, especially when sending money cross-border, you know, across Africa.

39:25those are very, very strict regulations in place. And so I think what Chiquamma have done really, really well is they work directly with regulators. So when you talk to the SARB in South Africa, if you talk to other markets in Africa, they understand the model because Chiquamma not only educate their customers, but they also educate the regulators around how they are servicing these customers and why it's actually creating inclusion across static region. So I think that's what they've done really, really well. So I would say biggest challenges, obviously, the lack of their own infrastructure, but also just making sure that every single regulation is fully, fully complied with.

40:09Laura Watkins:Fantastic. And then to bring you in here, sort of building on what Maria Shaw was just talking about, sort of how difficult is that to do more broadly, not just in this example, kind of stitching together the regulation in different regions, payment systems, FX, etc. How big is what they've achieved here? That's actually where the real check is. Because on the surface, the user experience will look incredibly simple, just sending messages on WhatsApp. But underneath that, there is a very complex ecosystem that needs to work seamlessly, let's say. You are effectively trying to stitch together multiple regulatory frameworks, different payment systems and various ethics flows, often across the countries that have very different levels of infrastructure maturity.

41:12From a technical perspective, it is definitely achievable. We already have the building blocks, modern APIs, cloud-based processing platforms, and modular payment infrastructures. But the real complexity comes from coordination rather than capability. I think each country has its own rules, its own compliance requirements, and sometimes even its own interpretation of similar regulations. And when you add cross-border ethics into the... things become even more complicated because now you are dealing not just with payments, but with liquidity, settlement and currency risk as well. So I would say technically feasible, but operationally and regulatory very challenging.

42:12And ultimately, if I had to summarize it in one line, simple experiences often build on very complex steps.

42:23Laura Watkins:Yeah, absolutely. Like the skill is making it look easy, right? When actually it's very, very complicated in the back end, which is kind of aligned, David, bringing you in, to our very first story in terms of starting becoming conversational through AI, et cetera. Are we kind of moving to a world where the kind of front interface disappears? How much does that sort of change the future of banking more broadly? Yeah, it's a really interesting one. So the FCA are currently conducting a long-term review into AI and its impact in retail banking, the Mills Review, which is kind of looking forward to what do we think AI and banking will look like in 2030.

43:07And Starling has submitted a response to that. But one of the questions it probes is this kind of idea that we move towards a proxy economy where people's allegiance isn't to their bank, but to the interface to use every day, like WhatsApp in this example. One of the questions that kind of probes is, will users come to their banking app for their everyday banking, or will they expect to be able to do this directly from the Gemini app or ChatGPT, right, and just expect to do everything there? Which is a really interesting question. I think the development of tools like Starling Assistant are our effort to try and bring that technology to the banking app to maintain that primary relationship with customers, but time will tell.

43:47how that evolves and how the industry has to react.

43:50Laura Watkins:Absolutely. And Marisha, we could probably talk about this all day, but I just want to give you a final word on this. Kind of what's your thought about how, obviously this has been created for a very specific use case in a very specific market, but could that actually be replicated more broadly in many other jurisdictions in the future? Yeah, absolutely. I think if you look at other emerging markets, definitely. So if you look at parts of Asia Pacific, If you look at parts of Latin America, even other parts of Africa, I think this model could be very successful. You know, when we look at it, it's really about saying, who is the customer that I'm trying to service and what are the needs?

44:32And I think in any industry, even when you look at what David's doing with Starling, it's really about saying, how do I meet the customer and my customer where they are at right now? It may be a styling customer needing more AI embedded in the process. It may be an African customer needing something simple, easy, cost-effective, frictionless, right? But as long as you are creating something that meets needs of your customers, you will always succeed. And so definitely, I think this kind of conversational banking, we're going to see more of it. We're going to see it expand across other regions, but we're also going to see it evolve.

45:10And that's what I think is so exciting. When we look at what Chickamapea has in their roadmap, things like, you know, including things like investment, insurance, multi-currency, there's so much that they have going on and so much that they have in store for their customers. And we're just so excited to see how they evolve and how they take this conversational banking to the next level.

45:34Laura Watkins:Amazing. Well, it's really exciting to see this in the first place. It's really exciting to see your passion for this as well. So, yeah, I'm excited as well to see how this evolves and what comes next. However, while we could talk about this all day, I do have to move us on. So our final main story this week is that the Australian fintech sector is valued to be worth$71 billion by 2035. A new report from FinTech Australia suggests that Australia's FinTech sector could grow to$71 billion in annual revenue by 2035, positioning it as a major driver of the country's economic growth. The sector already contributes around$13.6 billion to the economy today, equivalent to about 0.5 % of GDP and supports over 100 ,000 jobs across the ecosystem.

46:26Laura Watkins:By 2035, fintech could contribute$37 billion to GDP, growing around 10 % annually, making it one of Australia's fastest growing industries. The report highlights that more than 800 fintechs are operating across areas like payments, lending, wealth tech and reg tech, with the majority, around 78%, focused on B2B or embedded finance models rather than direct-to -consumer plays. We're going to start with the big question here. $71 billion is a big number. Marisha, we know that paymentology has just entered the Australian market. What do you think? How realistic is this? Is this a credible projection kind of based on the growth of the industry or kind of an optimistic strategical?

47:13Laura Watkins:What do you think? So I would say that it is optimistic but achievable. you know when you look at the Australian market they have some really strong fundamentals right so they have mature financial systems they have you know customers who are already tech savvy with a very very high digital adoption the regulators are extremely supportive I think there's a regulation coming out soon around how Australia is going to expand more of their domestic switch as well and the domestic rails So they have a very, very supportive regulatory framework to work off of. But I think what's important is that the regulators in Australia are looking at creating easier ways to, you know, create easy digital financial economies.

48:03And so when we look at it, I think Australia is well positioned as a regional authentic hub for APAC. A lot of the innovation that we're seeing across APAC is actually coming from Australia. And that's one of the reasons why we decided to enter is really because we're seeing this evolution of fintechs in Australia. We're seeing the hunger for new digital embedded services. We're seeing, you know, banks saying, you know, really looking at things differently. You have new banking as a service providers popping up. You have different corporate solutions that are really being adopted really, really well across Australia.

48:44So for us, like I said, optimistic, but definitely achievable. And we're really excited about the changes that are happening across Australia now. What we're also seeing happen, which is quite interesting, is a lot of the fintechs that we're working with in Australia also expanding into other parts of Southeast Asia and then looking at entering the U.S. market as well. So we're getting that expansion coming out of Australia from these really innovative fintechs as well, which is a really good sign of fintech health.

49:15Laura Watkins:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I was going to ask you what's kind of going to drive the next decade, whether it's sort of payments or lending on like a particular niche of fintech. And maybe that is also the case. But do you think that the kind of global push beyond Australian borders is also going to be an enormous contributing factor in that case? Yeah, absolutely. So we're seeing a lot of our banking as a service providers saying, firstly, you know, they operate really well across Australia. and they're challenging some of the more traditional banks with digital infrastructure, digital solutions.

49:46They're jumping over to New Zealand first, and then it's, okay, now how do we look at the Philippines? How do we look at Singapore? How does Europe become a play? And then if you look at the Australian market, it's a very close, you know, a lot of similarities with the South African markets. It's like, okay, let's jump across to South Africa. And so we're seeing a lot of these different segments pop up. So a lot of cross-border, multi-currency, banking as a service, a lot of corporate solutions, whether it's expense management, whether it's corporate credit, which is now huge, it's really exploding.

50:21So we're seeing a lot of these segments come up in Australia and then grow throughout APAC and then across regions as well. Fantastic.

50:30Laura Watkins:And David, coming to you, have we sort of underestimated how big the opportunity is in B2B and embedded finance? So that stat again, 78 % of Australian fintechs are B2B or B2B2C. Does that sort of change the idea that fintech value is shifting in a different direction and maybe even on the more kind of infrastructure play than the sort of direct to consumer? Yeah, so, I mean, Starling, we actually have our own SaaS business, Engine by Starling, that provides these services and our tech stack. It's deployed around the world, right? So, we've got clients in Canada, Romania, and Australia with our client A &P Go over in Australia.

51:12So, alongside all our Engine clients, we work with them to transform their core infrastructure and make sure that they're future-proof. And with that comes their data as well, right? And providing AI services. And so one of the things we are kind of actively discussing with our engine clients is as we roll out technology like agentic AI, like Starlinger system, we're sharing our learnings with those engine clients. And so we're excited to kind of see how that goes and then how that's possibly applicable in other markets. Fantastic.

51:44Laura Watkins:And to bring you in on this as well, on that kind of B2B and embedded piece, do you see that as a more sustainable model for fintech globally, particularly to the points you were making earlier around sort of collaboration and sharing learnings, as David said, rather than individual consumer facing propositions? That's a really interesting shift. And I actually do think it's a more sustainable model in the long run. Because if you look at consumer-facing fintech, it is often very competitive, very expensive to scale, and heavily dependent on customer acquisition and branding. But B2B and embedded finance operate differently, I think.

52:34instead of trying to attract users directly, they integrate into existing ecosystems, whether that's platforms, marketplaces, or other financial institutions. So rather than building demand, they become part of an existing flow. And I think that's a key advantage because once you are embedded, you are not just offering a service, you are becoming infrastructure. That also creates more stable and predictable revenue streams compared to the volatility we often see in consumer fintech models. Having said that, I don't think one replaces the other. Consumer fintech still plays a very important role in innovation and user experience.

53:27But if we are talking about scalability and long-term sustainability, then yes, I would say B2B and embedded finance are increasingly becoming the dominant model globally.

53:41Laura Watkins:Absolutely. And Marisa, kind of zooming out, kind of looking at that role of fintech in contributing to the economy we said at the top, fintech contributes 0.5 % of GDP in Australia. is that you know surprisingly low uh by 2035 they're expecting it to be a sort of major economic pillar does that um reflect the ambitions for fintech uh as a as a sort of almost revenue stream for ddp uh in australia yes i think it definitely becomes a massive revenue stream for australia um it does seem surprisingly low especially looking at the amount of fintechs we are either seeing, you know, shape and change the dynamics in Australia, but also just the amount of fintechs we have coming to us to say, look, they want to do new things.

54:34And, you know, they're really focusing on, they have a really good model right now, but they want to add in payments into how they service their customers and the customers' customers. So I think it does seem low, but definitely going to be a huge contributing factor to the economy by 2030. So I do agree with that.

54:54Laura Watkins:Definitely. Well, we have nine years to keep an eye on this one to see how it develops, but I'm sure we will. And yeah, FinTech Australia obviously has big ambitions for how it's going to grow the sector. So we will be keeping an eye on that. So on that note, you know, So, sorry, Laura, just to add on that point, one thing we always find so surprising is, you know, all of our other regions operate in a certain way. They follow the same rules and kind of regulations. Australia always seems to be a bit of a maverick, right? It's like when you get to Australia, they make their own rules. And so I think that's what makes it such a hotbed for fintechs and a really exciting market because they really don't compare it to anything else.

55:40They just do what they want. and so that's why I think it's really you know exciting when you look at Australia because you never know what's going to come out of the Australian market they're always going to surprise us so yeah

55:51Laura Watkins:well we love to be surprised so yeah we'll definitely keep an eye on them but on that note we're just going to take another quick pause back very shortly so good so good so good new spring arrivals are at Nordstrom Rack stores now get ready to save big with up to 60 % off Rag & Bone, Marc Jacobs, Free People, and more. How did I not know Rack has Adidas? Because there's always something new. Join the Nordic Club to unlock exclusive discounts, shop new arrivals first, and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite Rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you Rack.

56:34Laura Watkins:Okay, now for a quick look at a story we don't have time to cover in full, and that is, U.S. lawmakers moved to ban sports betting on prediction markets. This story comes from the Wall Street Journal. A bipartisan group of U.S. lawmakers is introducing new legislation aimed at banning sports-related betting on prediction markets like Calci and Polymarket. Lawmakers argue this creates a regulatory loophole, effectively allowing sports betting to operate outside state gambling frameworks and without the same consumer protections or tax structures. The proposed bill would prohibit federally regulated platforms from offering contracts tied to sports or casino-style games, reinforcing the idea that these activities should fall under state-level gambling regulation instead.

57:20Laura Watkins:The move comes as prediction markets have seen rapid growth, with much of their activity and revenue tied to sports betting. Prediction markets are becoming a huge topic right now, so we dive deep into the topic on our last Insights show. Kate Moody is joined by Emily Nicole, digital finance reporter at Bloomberg, and Kate Nebb, senior writer at Wired, for a fascinating discussion on what prediction markets are, how regulations work, and how we approach them. Before we move on to our final story, here is a sneak peek of that episode. So prediction markets are platforms that allow people to bet on the likelihood of a real-world event occurring.

58:01Laura Watkins:They're usually structured as yes or no bets. So you can buy the yes side or the no side and each side has odds that are determined by what people are trading at that point in time so that they're meant to reflect the implied probability eventually. Yeah. So a lot of people who are participating in these markets tend to see them as gambling tools more than financial instruments. So if you're going to place a bet in a traditional sports book and you want to put$500, say that Michigan State is going to win a March Madness game. You know, you give FanDuel or DraftKings or any sports book the$500, they set the odds and then you see what happens.

58:42It's not that different when you are deciding to put money down on the outcome of a sporting event on a prediction market. Under the hood is where the difference takes place because as Emily was saying, you are actually purchasing an events contract, which is a type of future contract, binary yes or no, And so in that sense, you are not placing a bet. You are making this financial industry purchase.

59:12Laura Watkins:Check out that podcast. It will be the last one in this feed just below this one. And finally, we have another piece of AI news. It's related to a kind of finance, but not necessarily banking. And this story is the AI agent that phoned 3 ,000 pubs to price a pint. The story in tech EU, an AI voice agent named Rachel has been used to call more than 3 ,000 pubs across Ireland to ask a simple question. How much is a pint of Guinness? The project, created by an AI engineer and former pub owner, Matt Cortland, aimed to fill a data gap after Ireland stopped officially tracking pint prices over a decade ago.

59:52Laura Watkins:Over 2 ,000 pubs answered the phone, among 1 ,000 provided pricing data, creating what's now been called the Gindex, a live data set of pint prices across the country. What's particularly striking is that very few people realized they were speaking to an AI, highlighting how realistic voice agents have become. The entire project reportedly cost around 200 euros to run, using tools like voice AI, telephony APIs, and large language models to extract and structure the data. While this might sound like a fun experiment, it points to something much bigger, the ability for AI agents to collect real world data at scale autonomously and cheaply, potentially reshaping how data is gathered across industries.

1:00:34Laura Watkins:So, David, you know, as our resident AI expert in the room, kind of what did you make of this? you know are we all you know going to be keeping an eye on the guindex to know how much a pint of Guinness is you know are we are we kind of ruining the the sacred ritual of going to the pub and turning it more into a spreadsheet what do you think I think I think it's a great and very noble piece of citizen science to to keep chaps on the the price of a Guinness no but you know if we come back to some of the earlier comments about, I think one of the great abilities of AI is to pull together great breadth of information and summarize it in a really easily digestible format, right?

1:01:25And talked earlier about using AI to be more proactive for customers versus reactive. And so, you know, wouldn't it be great if you asked your bank about your spending habits and it said, your energy prices seem a bit high, maybe we can actually find you a cheaper deal, right? So maybe this is what the future holds for AI assistants in banking apps and really, you know, democratize data for customers.

1:01:48Laura Watkins:Yeah, and to be fair, isn't that always how kind of some of these functions start with like a fun little experiment that actually ends up being applied to something of slightly more real world use perhaps? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So the idea for Starling Assistant actually came about from a hackathon we had in Starling in Dublin, actually. So we all went out to sample the price of a Guinness in Dublin. and we had a bit of a hackathon out of our Dublin office. And that's where two separate teams came up with one half of the idea was the kind of back end of how we link our banking data to LLMs. And then the other half of the team came together with the kind of agentic view.

1:02:25And it was through that bit of fun. And the first version of Starling Assistant that we had back at the hackathon only responded in Cockney rhyming slang. We did away with that for the final launch, but you know, that's kind of how the idea started. and that's how we rallied a lot of people around the effort. So yeah, I think there's a lot of time for a bit of fun and great things come from it.

1:02:46Laura Watkins:Yeah, definitely. Like a bit of fun to experiment that you then realize has much wider implications is often how some of the best products start. Chan, what were your thoughts on this one, particularly around sort of the use of AI and voice AI that people didn't realize they were speaking to an AI when this project launched? What's your thoughts on that? I think part of the top experience is not knowing the price. You just go in, order your thing and deal with it afterwards. I think we are turning top culture into data science and I'm not sure that I am already ready for that. That's fair. Although the price of a pile in London can be scarily high.

1:03:37Laura Watkins:having some advanced warning about that might be good. But yes, more broadly, I take your point that going to the pub should be less about data science and more about fun. Marisa, what was your take on this one? So I think two things. Firstly, love the idea. And I love how people are getting creative with saying, look, let's use AI to fix real world problems, right? Everyone complains about, you know, the price of a pint. So I think that's really great. But bringing the voice piece into it, it's, again, the evolution of how we're using AI. And the question is, you know, should, you know, the person that the AI is reaching out to, should they disclose that it is AI versus it's, you know, human?

1:04:25So I think there's some people may have a problem with that, you know, just AI calling to get information and then using that data. because it's all about using the data, how you use it, and then how you interpret it. And so I think in this example, it's great and it's good to see that it's actually working and it's successful. But I think with great power comes great responsibility. And so I think there, it's just, we have to be quite careful. We have to make sure that customers know that it's AI. They know what the data is being used for. They're comfortable sharing. So as long as we have, again, those guardrails in place, all for it.

1:05:02Yeah, I think just to add something really quick to that, towards the latter end of 2024, we ran a campaign, the Safe Phrases campaign, and we ran it with actor James Lisbeth, where we explored the prevalence of AI deep fakes in voice. and we did a bit of a fun exercise where the voice of our CIO was faked with AI and played to the board and we showed them two samples and asked them to pick which one was the AI fake and spoiler, they were both AI fakes but it was quite interesting to see how people approach that problem and I think, yeah, that highlights another big issue in AI as Marisha just said, it's important I think if you're talking to an AI you have to build that trust you have to know it's an AI you're talking to and not have AI try to overly impersonate people.

1:05:50Laura Watkins:Absolutely. I think that's a great point to end on. Also, I think incidentally, we probably covered that very story on this exact segment in the show at the time. I do remember, I do remember that and the James Nesbitt bit in particular. But yes, as you say, with great power comes great responsibility and also just awareness that you're talking to an AI if you are. But that rounds out today's show. Thank you so much for joining me. Where can people find out a little bit more about you and your companies and what you're up to. David, let's start with you. Feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn, David Sullivan, Starling.

1:06:27And we are working on a tech blog, which I need to double check if it's actually live yet or not. But we're planning as we build out Starling Assistant to publish a lot of what we do in that space on our tech blog for Starling. So yeah, do check it out.

1:06:41Laura Watkins:Fantastic. We'll stay tuned if it's not live yet. And if it is, we'll look at it straight away. So, Marisha, coming to you. Perfect. So, Laura, thanks for having us. This was another great episode. People can reach out to me on LinkedIn, Marisha Naidoo. Visit our website, www.paymentology.com. But also, please feel free to visit our Issue Academy on LinkedIn. We have some really great white papers and some really good conversational pieces. So, yeah, Issue Academy. Absolutely. And Jem? I'm all looking to connect on LinkedIn if anyone wants to continue the conversation fantastic thank you and as for me yeah same thing Laura Watkins on LinkedIn on 11fs.com or subscribe to FinTech Insider and that wraps up today's episode thank you so much for listening to today's show if you like what you've heard please make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast platform of choice and if you really like what you've heard please do share the podcast around with a colleague or friend And as always, if you want to join the conversation, find us on social media.

1:07:43Laura Watkins:Just search for 11FS or Fintech Insider, or you can email the team, podcasts at 11FS.com. Thanks again, and goodbye.