1098. News: Chime buys Stride Bank, Molten raises £175m, UBS puts AI on the job spec

25:49You know, Chime, I think, very consciously is trying to move up that income spectrum. They want to offer more lending products. And tapping Stride or acquiring Stride enables it to do that more easily by using the bank charter that Stride has. And I think we're going to get into the second piece, improves the economics by having the deposits, having the balance sheet. And I've rambled a lot, so I will let you ask your next question.

26:16Ross Gallagher:No, well, I mean, it's so interesting because it is a quite significant shift in mood music, Jason, as you say, in terms of moving from we're a technology company to, you know, this is very much going down that we're a bank. and obviously there's a clear scale play there and the economics, as you mentioned. John, it's interesting. Is there anything you think we can read into the sort of maybe that direction to travel away from that sort of infrastructure or middleware play as Jason described it more towards that kind of like, we're going to get serious, we're going to scale and we're going to do this ourselves.

26:54Yeah, first of all, I don't think I can match Jason on his intricate knowledge of the US banking landscape. I'm on the back floor. I mean, the only thing I can talk about, I mean, I have written about kind of Monzo and Revolut trying to make it in the US. And I think maybe there are questions about this partnership model because Monzo, I think from my understanding, tried to apply for the US charter and then got feedback saying they were going to get one. And then they kind of partnered with a US licensed bank and that obviously hasn't worked. They've retreated from the US. Revolut, I think, had a partnership and now they're very likely to get a US charter.

27:36And I always remember an interview with Nick Storonskip, CEO and co-founder, and he emphasized how important it was for Revolut to get that US charter because obviously the US is a credit, it's massively a credit card nation. So you really, from the economic point of view, you really need to have the license yourself and do it through a third party. So I guess the fact that those two have not made a successful partnership model would lead me to believe that perhaps when you think talking about European Finitex launched in the US, maybe the route to go is to go through a license or to acquire a bank.

28:17I think, I'm not really up to speed, I think Open North, another example, I think they're in the throes of acquiring a US bank. So maybe that's the, maybe there's questions about this partnership model, I think.

28:28Ross Gallagher:Jason, a more practical route maybe to market, but more specifically probably to scale. Yeah, I mean, we've seen both approaches, right? So, you know, something that is always interesting as an observer of the U.S. market is how much things, at least in this case, have changed administration to administration. So I don't want to go all the way back to 2008, but post-2008, we really saw almost no de novo banks in the U.S. I mean, it slowed from hundreds a year to like a true trickle, I mean a handful. And so until fairly recently, I mean, until the current administration and the regulators appointed by the current administration, the quickest route to get to market if you wanted to become a bank was buying one.

29:23And frankly, even that was difficult. Things have absolutely changed. I mean, the sort of phrase folks, including myself, have used is that that charter window is open. And you're seeing different companies pursue different avenues to take advantage of that. I mean, even predating the change of administration, you saw SoFi become a bank through acquisition. It acquired a bank called Golden Pacific Bank Corp. You saw Lending Club, which is like an OG peer-to-peer lender, become a bank by acquiring Radius Bank Corp. You know, one of the rare de novo charters granted to a fintech, I think it was the only de novo charter granted to a fintech prior to the Comptroller Gould being appointed to OCC, was Vero.

30:17And Vero has kind of had a rough go of it or a mixed bag and definitely has not achieved the kind of scale that Chime has. And I've actually had someone argue to me that part of the reason why Vero, which has a very sort of similar product set to Chime, one of the reasons it may have struggled to scale the way that Chime has, ironically enough, was because it is a bank, right? Banks, as we all know, listening to this show, I'm sure, have regulatory and capital requirements. And so Chime was able to spend much more aggressively and also had the benefit of being a private company where its financials were shielded from scrutiny.

31:02whereas Vero has to maintain certain leverage ratios, certain tier one equity capital requirements, and has, depending on who you ask, the misfortune of having to file what in the U.S. are called call reports that provide information on the bank's financials. So I think, again, a lot has changed since Vero got its DeNovo charter, which was, I think, four or five years ago. And certainly with the change of administration and the change in regulatory leadership at the OCC, at the FDIC, and at the Fed, you've really seen all of these avenues. So acquisition, de novo, we don't have enough time to talk about the different kinds of bank charters because it'll make your head explode, but you have national charters, you have state charters, you have a quirky kind of charter, call it an ILC, you've got trust bank charters.

31:59you have seen a lot of activity because companies are taking advantage of what they perceive maybe as somewhat limited window to get these charters, whether it's acquisition or de novo.

32:14Ross Gallagher:Nadia, I think Jason's done such a great job of kind of breaking down, I suppose, all of the legal challenges. What about some of the organizational considerations when you think that we're bringing together an exciting sort of fintech and like technology company and a bank that was founded over 100 years ago. Yeah, I mean, look, there's a lot of people challenges in that. And it's so fascinating to hear the detail from the both of you. Because I look at things from the human, the decision-making of do I want to join this firm? What does the prospect of this firm look like? How exciting would this be for me and my career?

32:53And I think that is really relevant to this conversation because, yes, Jason, I am very aware of just all the complexities that I know that you've just given us like the tip of the iceberg on it. But when it comes to an individual and them choosing whether to grow their career in one company or another, it's about making sure that story is really clear. And this is the piece that I think about when I hear the both of you talking about this conversation. there is a there's a vision there is a plan there's there's a train that we can get on board and that right now is quite unique um and i really want people to hear that because actually being able to to tell the story of this is where we are looking to go and yes there's going to be hurdles along the way but this is the journey i'd like you to get on especially in an age where there is so much change there's so much need for adaptability there's a lot of stresses around what actually are the skills that are needed.

33:53This is a real pain point that I want us to do a bit of a conversation on, like what are the skills actually needed as we move along and we move forward within this journey of a firm's vision. And I think that right now, a lot of that just isn't explained well to potential talent. So when we look at big changes within companies, big changes equals risk. when actually big change could really equal huge opportunity. And this isn't, you know, glass half empty, glass half full. It's actually just understanding who are we talking to and where could this opportunity go and actually being really honest and transparent about the risks alongside it.

34:33But it isn't just one or the other. And I think me with my talent head and my hiring head on this, we've got to be looking at the fact that right now in the industry, there is so much change. We are a transitioning workforce. We are talking about, let's be honest, there's so much sensationalization out there around people losing jobs and their skill sets not being needed. When if we boil it all down, yes, there's a lot of redesign, but ultimately it's the problem solvers and the way that we're solving those problems that are truly going to be needed. We talk a lot about the agility needed, the judgment needed, the adaptability.

35:11And ultimately, as I'm hearing the ways that everyone's talking about this actually very exciting story, it's important that that is explained well when we think about it from a talent and hiring point of view, wherever that growth may be in the world. I think there's a couple of other considerations I just would like to mention. when companies are choosing where to grow and where to scale obviously taxes is something that everyone's going to be thinking about and it's not just where where is the talent located but I actually think the ease of hire and here in the UK very sadly there's a lot of fear around hiring the they've got to hire the perfect person and I think we've got a long a long way to go to remind ourselves about humanity, about people and their desires, their motivations, and how they use their skills, rather than just what they have done in the past.

36:09And someone at one company can be a very different person at another when they are engaged and excited and on that train that we spoke of. So a very different perspective to the stories we're hearing, but I think really, really relevant.

36:21Ross Gallagher:Oh, such a great point. And I especially love that point about the purpose and the mission and the vision. I think when it comes organizationally to solving for some of these challenges, I think we often tend to think about org diagrams and tooling and ways of working, but we don't actually get enough around a really clear and compelling purpose and mission and vision, something that people can really sort of get behind and make sure that everybody's pulling in the same direction. So I couldn't agree more. I mean, look, I think we're blessed with the stories on the show today because I think we could have done an entire show on each one of them.

36:57Ross Gallagher:sadly I do need to move us on so on that note we are just going to take a very quick pause here and we'll be back with you very very shortly

37:09Ross Gallagher:Before we get back to the news we wanted to tell you about our next AfterDark event which is this Thursday Vintech Insider host David Breer and Kate Moody will be joined live on stage by John Hart from Sage Alexandra Riverscale from Barclay Card Payments and Tamara Vandenban from NatWest Group to record this very podcast and break down the biggest news stories of the week. It's taking place at Village Underground in London on Thursday, 17th of September, and tickets are still available now at 11fs.com forward slash after dark. There's also a link in the show notes below. If you want to be part of this event, don't miss out.

37:45Ross Gallagher:Now back to the news, and our final main story this week comes from FSTech with a headline, UBS makes AI proficiency a hiring requirement for junior bankers. So UBS will require prospective graduates and interns joining its Global Banking and Markets division in 2027 to demonstrate AI proficiency as part of the recruitment process. Candidates will be expected to demonstrate how they have used AI to improve outcomes and efficiency, rather than simply showing familiarity with AI tools. UBS says AI capabilities and experience are becoming an important part of future professional success, while stressing that they complement rather than replace traditional skills.

38:26Ross Gallagher:UBS has also experimented with AI-generated avatars of analysts to deliver video presentations to clients with the aim of freeing employees to focus on other work. Santander has taken a similar approach, seeking advanced AI users for some graduate programs within its corporate and investment bank. Now, Nadia, given your area of focus, I imagine you'll have found this one quite interesting. I'm keen to get your initial thoughts and reactions. And if anyone could see me, I've suddenly started moving a lot and almost like a grimace and then a big smile because there's all of those feelings in this conversation.

39:06So look, firstly, I am quite excited about this, but I do think it all needs to be taken in context and just piece by piece. So yes, I'm excited that we're talking about actually how we're using things, because I think there was a window where anyone hiring got way too granular with like their hype around AI, like wanting to, you know, there was a huge increase in AI engineers must have this many years experience. It's like, wait a second, like no one's done that for that many years. Like, you know, let's just take a step back. And I think there is, we're starting to have a bit of a move to what are you actually going to be doing with AI?

39:44And that is the bit that I'm excited about, rather than just only focusing on those two letters. And what I really hope from this story is that the reality turns into that, that there'll be actual questions around what have you done with AI? What problems have you solved? Let's say within your family setup, have you sorted out how your grandmother gets to all the doctor's visits? Have you used AI with that? Have you organized your whole family's week around shopping and getting to different places? Have you got other issues in your life that you have built something around that will showcase somebody at entry level?

40:23They are using tooling in a way that hasn't been used before. Because I think this is where the gaps have really been, where in hiring processes, people have wanted to test things that actually aren't ever going to be used. and if we boil down what we're doing now with AI, it's about the problem solving and it's about thinking how can we be creative enough, innovative enough, how can we create environments where people feel safe to make mistakes and try, try, try again until they get to something amazing and I really, you know, my positive part of my brain is reading this and thinking well this is starting to pave the way for that rather than, you know, you've used a bit of chat.

41:09Also with this part of the story, I am super excited because very recently I've been absolutely inspired by pre-uni students that I met at a talk and just their excitement and their energy and their motivation and what they have been doing outside my realms of possibility with AI. Not anything in a corporate environment, but at home being creative, it's really inspired me to think, you know, what this next generation can bring to the industry. And I'm really excited to see that this could open the door and make waves for the rest of the industry so that we stop just talking about AI, but we start using it in really beneficial ways.

41:57Also, I just want to make a point on this. I was speaking with the wonderful Wint C. Wong this morning, if anyone knows her, I know she's been on this show a number of times, did a lot of digital transformation for NatWest. She's an amazing exec within the industry. And we were talking about how her experience at NatWest, there's a wonderful transformation they did of completely reskilling 480 people who had never worked in technology before to become engineers. and just all the learns that she got from that. And you think if we all start thinking like that, re-skilling as a number one, continual learning, how do we build environments where people can share their perspectives on how do we do this better?

42:43We are making absolute steps in the right direction for this industry.

42:47Ross Gallagher:I really like the point that you made about moving away from that. We've had that sort of very noisy sort of early pipe cycle, but actually now starting to focus on very specific use cases where you can add a ton of value. And actually, I really like Nadia the way that, you know, because we're talking about graduate programs here, so we're not expecting people to come in and demonstrate years of experience in doing this stuff, but actually, how have you used it in your day-to-day life? Maybe how have you used it in your uni career or whatever that looks like, but something that just demonstrates real curiosity with this new technology and wanting to find ways to show value.

43:23Ross Gallagher:John, I think it's interesting. We're talking about, you know, big global brands like UBS, Santander, we're talking about their next sort of cohort or sort of intake when it comes to the sort of graduate programs. I think that's a real sort of, I guess, endorsement and sort of a clear direction of travel now that AI is going to be a core part of people's, you know, people's day-to-day working jobs. Yeah, I mean, this story didn't surprise me at all. I guess, obviously, I'm a lot older than a graduate now, but thinking, you know, if I was to go for a graduate job in a a wide-collar profession, be it legal, banking, civil service, I guess my expectation, I'd be more worried about the questions probably about AI than about my proficiency in AI than the core area.

44:09So I guess it all stems from, you know, the interview or how they define proficiency in AI. I think, I mean, a lot of graduates though, particularly at that age in America, are kind of, from my understanding, and they're kind of anti-AI from an environmental perspective. So it might be, it's a shame if, you know, if you're like, want to pursue a career in a particular field, but you're kind of, you know, warded off or worried about joining that field because you're worried about kind of the AI element. So I think it's okay as long as the AI doesn't kind of overshadow the core, you know, core business joining, whether it's banking, kind of an addition rather than, you know, it's the core bit of it.

44:54Ross Gallagher:things but interesting story yeah i mean building on that point i have read some stuff about um you know college students or university students in particular actually becoming quite disillusioned um because people who are maybe not using ai to um to do online multiple choice um exams for example or writing the essays without um you know without actually learning all of the content those people are getting sort of lower grades than the people who are sort of using AI and obviously that's a little bit of a gray area but I think it still points to a serious direction of travel I mean Jason one of the things that sort of stood out for me when I was was reading the intro to the show was this idea of UBS experimenting with AI generated avatars to deliver these video presentations to clients and obviously that's so it feels so alien to sort of how we do things now but again I suppose points to a direction of travel that we're probably going to be doing things very differently in a couple of years' time than we're doing them today.

45:54Yeah, I imagine. I mean, I read that in preparing for this show, and I also recently read a story about people who are doing job interviews, and the candidate was interviewing with an AI, which frankly sounds dystopian and horrible.

46:15but as far as where this is going, particularly in like the banking and fintech space, I mean, the question I ask, and clearly this is like technology that is moving extremely, extremely quickly, which makes it hard to pin down, you know, where it's going to be six months or 12 months from now, let alone five years from now. I mean, I think that the question I ask is, is the tooling fit for purpose? So if the idea is like, okay, you know, so much, I'm surprised I haven't heard the word agentic yet, but so much of what I hear on LinkedIn or on Twitter, and certainly on the conference circuit, which I'm trying to avoid this year, is, you know, everything is agentic now.

46:58And I guess, you know, the question I ask or the lens I would take is, is the technology actually achieving the outcome it's intended to? And I think there are cases where we're seeing it more successfully deployed. So this may be a little bit of information availability bias, but I see a lot of applications, particularly in the compliance space, where for better or for worse, a lot of the work is kind of repetitive, right? So it's something that may lend itself to automation more easily than other kinds of work. You know, conversely, we've also seen companies engage in what some are calling AI washing or kind of like leaning into an AI narrative, whether it's to justify layoffs that maybe they wanted to do anyway or to try to appeal to whatever the hot Wall Street narrative of the day is.

47:54And I think in our industry, an example I would point to is Klarna, right? Klarna very loudly and proudly was like, you know, we laid off all these people because AI is so great. It then ultimately had to, you know, had to backpedal and ultimately sort of backfill some of those roles. Like a very, very quick personal consumer anecdote to illustrate that. I am a customer of Bunkth, the bank here in the Netherlands, and I needed to do a chargeback on something because it was like a fraud or an erroneous charge. And there was literally no option to interact with a human being. So like I, you know, I tried to explain to the AI bot, like why I was charging it back.

48:41It immediately told me this is declined. We're not accepting your chargeback. and it would not even allow me to escalate it to a human. And as a user of that product, I might have never been more angry in my entire recent life. So it's like, is that an example where this tool, replacing a human, is actually fit for purpose at achieving the job to be done? And that's an example where I'd argue, no, it's not, because now I'm angry and I'm talking about it on an industry podcast.

49:15Ross Gallagher:I couldn't agree more and I think that is a massive limitation of the application of these types of you know sort of agentic programs in this context is because they they tend to do things very literally rather than intuitively and I think they miss a ton of a ton of nuance right and so that's that's going to be that's going to be an ongoing limitation but Nadia I'm really keen just to kind of give you the final word on this I think the guys have summed it up really well I think we're still very much in a transitional phase as it concerns AI. And so I suppose if there are graduates listening to this and they're thinking about GZRI 2027 intake of graduate programs, like how can they really even start to think about preparing themselves for that given that transitional element?

49:58Yeah. And I think the points that have been made are so important. We mustn't forget all of those graduates walking out on graduation day when they've got somebody talking about all the benefits of AI without mentioning the negatives around sustainability, without mentioning how negative AI and everything that Jason just said about people pinning it on AI when actually they wanted to make a bit of a pivot anyway. But what AI has done in terms of the reduction of entry jobs. We must remember that, right? But I think that some important points must be made around seeing AI recruitment tools as a case study of where it hasn't worked.

50:47The example that Jason just said, where he was node without any context or full information, AI is definitely not the solution to everything. And why I am positive about it is because we are now moving away from AI is going to replace it all to AI will help us redesign things for better. And I think that starts to open doors for opportunities. And that's the bit that I'm excited about. If we'd had this conversation six months ago, it would have been very different because there was a lot of assumption around what is fit for purpose. And I think we're now being much more honest around what isn't fit for purpose.

51:23So back to your question, advice to advice to students, advice to entry level and actually advice to us all at any level in any part of our job search. Everyone is talking about the humane skills, being able to properly problem solve, judgment, all the things I've been talking about, agility, adaptability and this continual learning. But one thing that I say to everybody is we must not only look at entry level, we must look at the group of people who are highly experienced, highly talented, and very, very willing and ready to adapt. The 40 plus. If we're pushing back retirement age, we must still be open to hiring that age of the population as well.

52:07And we must be having that as part of this conversation too.

52:11Ross Gallagher:All right. Well, look, on that note, we're just going to take a very quick pause here and we'll be back with you again very very shortly okay now for a very quick look at stories we didn't have time to cover in full this one comes from ff news with the headline meta launches muse ai agent with plaid integration so meta has launched muse a personal ai agent that can connect to users financial accounts through plaid users can choose to give muse access to information including balances, transactions, investments, and liabilities, allowing it to provide personalized financial guidance. The agent can use that information to help with tasks such as adjusting budgets, identifying subscriptions, and managing debt alongside non-financial areas including productivity, health, and shopping.

53:00Ross Gallagher:The service is initially focused on the US, where Plaid connects to more than 12 ,000 financial institutions and apps. Users must explicitly opt into connecting their financial accounts and can manage or revoke those connections through Plaid. Jason, the show notes say Ross to share thoughts, but given the focus on the US and obviously your promotion to co-host, I'm going to defer to your expert knowledge of the market. I am honored. I mean, I think this is something that's interesting and in theory could be a positive for users and consumers. I will put some strong caveats on that could, which are, you know, Meta is not exactly the most loved and trusted brand lately.

53:49I mean, there's been a whole host of litigation the company has faced in the U.S. around consumer safety, child safety. um and ai uh as john mentioned i believe you know kind of has let's say an uneven but potentially like worsening uh sort of brand or reputation uh i'm frankly not sure about in the uk but the data center piece which is frankly a little bit distinct from ai itself has become a really hot button political issue in the u.s with most people uh not loving it uh and then ultimately there's a question of is this actually something that will people use? And I think when you look at what the underlying sort of product category is, the idea of personal financial management, PFMs, we've seen dozens of fintech startups in the PFM space, you know, launch and then ultimately not succeed because frankly, most people don't want to think about budgeting their money.

54:50So if this is something that can sort of help them do that and help them make better choices, without them having to exert too much effort, and they ultimately trust Meta to do that, it could work, but I'm not holding my breath. Nailed it.

55:05Ross Gallagher:I don't know why I'm here. That was excellent. All right, and finally, Trump becomes first living U.S. president on a coin in a century. The U.S. Mint has launched a new$1 coin featuring President Donald Trump to mark the 250th anniversary of the United States. The coin features Trump's portrait alongside the words, Liberty and In God We Trust. It is being marketed as a collectible rather than entering general circulation, although it remains legal tender. U.S. law generally prevents living presidents from appearing on currency, but the administration has pointed to provisions in legislation governing the 250th anniversary coin designs.

55:48Ross Gallagher:Trump is the first sitting president to appear on a U.S. coin since Calvin Coolidge appeared on a commemorative half dollar in 1926. Rolls of 25 coins are being sold for$61, while bags of 100 cost$154.50. Jason, I'll come to you first on this again. What do you think? So, it is not even legal to put the president on a physical bill, which was I think the original idea a living president I should say on a physical bill so I guess the coin is the backup strategy not particularly thrilled with it personally don't think the idea of I mean today he's today he's come out and he's promised$5 ,000 to every American adult if the Republicans win both houses So, again, of course, there's a huge debate around, is this legal?

56:51Ross Gallagher:Is that legal? Clearly a policy that would be great for inflation, but I don't want to take us too far off track. I mean, it is borderline propaganda and like tin pot dictator level behavior. And I, yeah, I'll leave it at that. Love that. Nadia, what's your reaction to this one? So, I would love somebody else to be on a coin. and can I just get everyone behind this? I think the perfect person to be on a coin would be Madam C.J. Walker. So everyone, you must watch. I think it's on Netflix. It's called Self Made. It's a short series. I never even knew who Madam C.J. Walker was until I watched this and I am now obsessed with this woman.

57:37So she was born in 1867 and she built a hair care and beauty empire for black women in the States. And she is credited as one of the first ever self-made female millionaires in America. She needs to be on a coin. I'd be so excited. And I would pay, you know, time and a half for that coin, for sure.

57:58Ross Gallagher:You're not going to be holding the Trump one. No comment. John, what do you think about this one, John? I think that's a good, I've never heard of that person, but I'm persuaded by Nadia's argument. so that's a good show. Well, I wholeheartedly agree with Jason. It seems really even propagandist because I guess my reading of someone, a head or a face on a coin, would have to be presumed someone who's got longevity and ideally someone who's dead maybe. I think maybe there's been, well, there's been lots of US presidents, haven't they? So will Trump be seen as a great president in, you know, 50 or 100 years time?

58:38That's open for debate, but certainly not. It's too early to say that for now. So a big thumbs down, I think.

58:44Ross Gallagher:Well, I guess he's taken things into his own hands. Why leave it to other people to make that decision after he's gone? He's just going to do it himself right now. Jason, he's never been one to shy away from a little bit of shameless self-promotion.

59:02Ross Gallagher:All right. Look, let's leave it there. Thank you so much to today's guests. Maybe we can go around the room. you can tell us a little bit more about where our listeners can find out a little bit more about you, a little bit more about your companies. Nadia, let's start with you, if you don't mind. Yes, I've actually got something really exciting that's coming up that I wanted to share. I have co-authored a new paper that just today I can say Sir Ron Khalifa is going to endorse it. So I'm really excited. I've co-written it with Samantha Emery, who is a friend of the show, and a gentleman called Bill Oates, and the report is called Think Again.

59:40Why UK Financial Services Must Act Now on AI-era Resilience. So it's all about how we can mitigate risk in the future of the sector, talking about talent, talking about diversity of thought and debate in the workplace. You can find me on LinkedIn. I'm always, always happy to talk about identifying great talent, attracting that great talent and making sure they've got a really enjoyable process joining your company and then they want to stay there. So please reach out and have a chat for me. Thank you.

1:00:14Ross Gallagher:Thanks, Nadia. Congratulations. That sounds like a really useful plug. John, how about you? So I'm on email is john.tech.eu and I'm also on Twitter. And I think I said this last time I come on, I'm really keen to hear stories. So if you work for FinTech and you've got an interesting story, be it good or bad news, or you think something that needs airing that's not in public domain, please do contact me. I will always take your email and call. So thanks very much for inviting me back. Super, thanks, John. And Jason, how about you? Folks can find me publishing at FinTech Business Weekly and spending too much time on LinkedIn and X.

1:00:58And yes, thank you for having me back.

1:00:59Ross Gallagher:The pleasure is ours as always. And as for me, you can find me on LinkedIn or if you want to find out a little bit more about what we're doing over at 11FS, it's 11FS.com. That does wrap up today's episode. Thank you so much for listening to today's show. If you like what you heard, please make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast platform of choice. And if you really like what you heard, why not share the podcast with a colleague or friend? As always, if you want to join the conversation, find us on social media. Just search for 11FS or FinTech Insider or email podcasts at 11FS.com. thank you very much again and goodbye