E146 - "Every Relationship ENDS!": The #1 Divorce Lawyer on Love, Marriage & Money | James Sexton

28:05I don't know. The next girl I dated had the exact same thing, which I have like a stubbly beard and she had sensitive skin. I used to say I date Polish girls a lot. I guess they all have sensitive skin. So she, but she was brilliant because what she would do is after I would shave, she would always be like, oh, God, you look so sexy. when you just shaved, you know? And she would like come up and like rub my face and she'd be like, oh, you look like, you know, you look like Don Draper in Mad Men, you know? Dude, I've shaved like three times a day. I was like, loving it. I was like, it's great. Like, yeah, like I would shave and I'd be like, I just shaved.

28:38And she'd be like, yeah, you did, you know? Okay, what was she doing? She's doing the same thing the other girl did. She was just doing it better. Yeah. You know, like if you go home to the girlfriend and say like, you know, how come we're not having sex as often as we used to? Okay, she's instantly going to be defensive. Well, you're not around as much and you've been really preoccupied. Well, I've been busy because I'm working all the time. Well, you're working all the time. What am I supposed to do? Now we're off to it. Whereas if you go, you know what happened? I was driving in town earlier and I drove past that.

29:09Remember that restaurant that we used to go to? And you remember that one night? I was just thinking about that night that we went there and then we went back to my apartment and we just like didn't leave for eight hours. Like, that was such a good time. You know, like I still, God, I still like feel that way about you. Now she's going to be like, all right, you primed the pump. Because what did you do? You brought her back in memory to this place where you both were. That's a little different from the place you are now. And you reminded her of who we were at that time. And then instead of creating a defensive response, you said to her, I still feel that way about you.

29:47Okay, and now we're having a real connection again. And we're bringing ourselves back to that place. I think that that's the kind of thing if you're going to be in a relate like it's amazing how much time we spend in school teaching people how to like divide fractions. Yeah. Like, and you don't really use it that much. But we don't teach things like how to have a difficult conversation with someone. How to, you know, be honest without being cold to someone or running reckless on their feelings. Like, I think that these are teachable skills. Like, they really are teachable skills. But for some reason, we treat it as if it's something that you should just be born knowing.

30:29and and really most of our education in how to be in relationship we get by watching our parents or grandparents which isn't always the best role models because they learned by watching their parents or grandparents or by watching like social media and film and tv which is absolute bullshit and absolutely giving us the wrong that's like watching porn and saying well that's going to teach me what sex in a relationship actually looks like like no it's not it's going to teach you a stylized version of something that isn't authentic and honest about what real relationship looks like. Yeah, you're right.

31:06Because if someone's going to come to me with negative energy or accusing immediately, what are they going to expect to receive back? I'm going to come right back at you with the same energy. It's not going to be pleasant. And I mean, I've made the mistake before where I've just maybe not worded, the intentions have been right but the words or the order which i have said things have not been right and then it's i'm like okay yeah kind of that one but the next time right and i feel like it's as you said it's not really it's a skill that should be taught but it isn't really taught so then how do you learn it and for me i feel like it just comes from experience i think experience is a great teacher i think that when you step on the rake you figure out like okay don't do it that way it's like what you just said you're like oh i did it wrong and i went okay i kind of got that one wrong i won't do it that way again i even i i like i felt like even earlier this year i was like i've made all the mistakes i could possibly make when it comes to like relationships good way to learn and i out of nowhere i made one of the stupidest mistakes ever i'm like i'm still gonna make them yeah yeah well and isn't that amazing to like have that kind of freedom and also to give yourself permission and give yourself the grace to be able to do that i think that's really healthy I think that those are also the most powerful visceral lessons, aren't they?

32:23Like, like people can tell you all the theory they want to, but like, once you really feel the pain of something, you feel sick. Yeah. Yeah. But then you remember, don't you, you know, like we've all had that experience of like drank too much or did too much, whatever. And then you go, well, I'm not going to do that again, you know? And you, and it's, you, you know, it in a much more visceral, real, tangible way that carries forward more. But I think it's, it's a real pessimistic view to think that, that some of these things are not teachable skills. I really do think they are teachable skills.

32:59Again, will you learn them instantly and then know them and perfect them? No, I don't think that's true of most things. I think most things you gotta, it's like a muscle, you gotta work it and try it and it gets stronger and it's going to be sore for a while, but then eventually you really fall into a rhythm. And that's a good thing. You know, I think that it's the same thing. We have to start somewhere. And I think a good place to start is learning how to engage in honest conversation with a partner without really running reckless on their feelings, because it is a fine line between honesty and candor and being so blunt as to just bring out a defensive response, like you said in your partner.

33:40A lot of the people that end up in my office, I really, I really think it's because we, we fall in love so fast and then we fall out of love, like kind of the way we go bankrupt very slowly. And then all at once, you know, it's like no single raindrops responsible for the flood, but the flood happens. Then the floods are just a bunch of little raindrops and no one of those raindrops is more responsible than any other raindrops, but the flood happens, right? And the flood is destructive, but it's just a lot of little raindrops. And so I think that those little points of disconnection is what we have to work on.

34:19Just those little things. I mean, you see it in your fitness work that it's little choices that really add up. It's the aggregate. Like people worry so much about like, oh, I did a cheat meal the other night and I'm worried. Okay, dude, one meal is not going to kill you or derail all of your progress unless you let it, right? Unless you let it create a habit of mine that you're like, all right, well, I screwed up last night, so I might as well screw up the whole weekend. Well, I screwed up this weekend. I might as well write off the rest of the month. Whereas those small choices, those small incremental choices really, really add up.

34:51People overestimate what they can do in a week and they underestimate what they could do in six months. And so I think it's the same thing in relationship. Like people, it's very, very similar to the world of fitness that people underestimate how much improvement they could make in their relationship with little tiny choices, little things, just again, like sending your partner a text. You know, oh, I heard a song on the radio. It made me think of you. Like doing that for a woman is the equivalent of her sending you nudes. Legitimately. It legitimately is. If you send a woman who you're dating a text saying, oh, I was in Starbucks and I heard this song and it made me think of you.

35:31or, hey, I just wanted you to know I was thinking of you right now. You popped into my mind. It is the equivalent of being sent nudes. It's the sense of you're special. This is just for you. You were on my mind. I wanted to share something with you. That has tremendous value. Tremendous value. Yeah. I always find it quite interesting, as you said, the comparison between fitness and natural relationships. If you're a guy who's good looking and you have loads of options and you have basically women throwing themselves at you. It's almost like you're kind of dieting, but you work in a cake shop and there's just like, you're surrounded by dessert all the time.

36:09And the temptation is very high because it's just always there. But you are prioritizing your fitness and the way you look over that short-term gratification of having some cake. So you're actively saying no to it. So it's like being that guy who gets a lot of options, but But I think if you work in a cake shop, though, I do think you eventually become a little more desensitized to the appeal of cake than most people would be. Like, I will say, when I was a younger man and I had less options with women, I put women on a pedestal in a very different way. And I think I was much more hungry for the attention of women.

36:51once I realized, oh, there's a lot of women out there and there's a lot of them that would be willing to sleep with me and interested in me because I'm successful. And, you know, once that happened, it was like working in a cake shop. Like you sort of said, okay, like, so I have a lot of options. So I'm not going to be so crazed when an opportunity comes my way. Like if you work in a cake shop, you're not going to be like, where am I going to get a piece of cake? Like, but, but, you know, when you see a piece of cake, you're like, yeah, it's cake. I see cake all day. Like, I see cake all the time.

37:23Yes, cake's good. That cake looks good. It looks good like all the cake I've been seeing all damn day, right? I think that's kind of how it is for many women. I think women are, you know, women are not walking around going, where am I going to find a penis that's interested in me? Like, women, it's so easy for even a mid-range woman. That's why I've always joked that, you know, the idea of the hall pass, you know, like saying, oh, mine is Sidney Sweeney and yours is, you know, Brad Pitt. Okay. Well, let's really do the math on that. Like if my girlfriend meets Brad Pitt in an airport lounge and says, listen, you want to run in another room, maybe have a little quickie.

38:04I think that I'm not saying anything about Brad Pitt personally. The chances of him saying yes are much higher than if I met It's Sydney Sweeney. And I said, by the way, Miss Sweeney, I don't know if you're aware, but this is an option for you. It's available. My wife has said that you are allowed to partake. It's not like she would go, really? Like, I've been wondering where I could get a penis, you know, like it's really not like. So I think women, it's a very different thing. I think for men who have options, men who are successful, good looking or some combination of the two, I think that that optionality actually can reduce the level of temptation.

38:44Of course, it gives you lots of occasion to it's like working in a cake shop, but it may actually take away from some of that sense of, oh, my God, this person's actually willing to sleep with me. I should take this opportunity. So I think that that will change things. And then, of course, I also think some of that stuff is a little bit tied to hormones. It's a little bit tied to how much you let yourself be controlled by that very primal part of your brain. You know, I think that if you're like an amygdala controlled human being, it's different than if you are someone who has a more developed prefrontal cortex.

39:18I think when you're 35, you have a more developed prefrontal cortex than when you were 20. And ideally, as you get older, my experience of getting older has been that you do find your patience starts to go up because you really do see a longer view of things. And you have seen desire. Patience with what? patience with yourself patience with situations that you're in you know i don't need everything right now anymore i'm willing to play the long game a lot more i'm i'm just much less impulsive um again not afraid to make big moves but i just don't feel that sense of like oh i need it right now like i can wait you know i can wait on things i don't need to have the overnight immediate gratification.

40:07I can look at a beautiful woman, like I would look at a beautiful painting or a flower and say like, oh, that's really nice. But I can also look at a beautiful woman and think, someone right now is tired of that. Someone right now is just going, oh my God, I wish she'd stopped texting me. And that's okay. I can remember women who, when I first met them, I was like, oh, if I could just have that. And then you have that and go, oh my God, how am I going to get rid of that? You know? And I think when you've had enough life experience to see that, hopefully some part of you really remembers that. All right, guys, quick pause here.

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41:48Let's crack on with the episode. It's interesting because by that logic, you would think that as a man gets older, he gets into his 30s, he has more experience, that perhaps he would be better at, marriage and being in a long-term relationship, but it isn't necessarily the case. And then there's a complete opposite where, you know, there's some people who get married very early in their early twenties and it actually ends up working out great for them, which is really nice to see. Like they've been able to be in a relationship, a loving and loyal relationship for a very long period of time. And it's actually still fairly common.

42:28What's surprising is that those statistics aren't as stabilized as you would think. Like there's a lot of people that marry young and it doesn't work out. And there's a lot of people that marry young and it works out great. There's a lot of people that marry when they're a little older and it works out better. And there's people that marry when it's older and it works out poorly. Like there, there is just not a clear path to, oh, you just need to check these couple of boxes and you're going to be happy. Like it's not how it works. It's a much more dynamic multivariate equation. It's a much more dynamic ecosystem.

42:58And remember, because it's not just you. You know, your fitness is you. It's what you put in your mouth and what heavy things you lift. Like, it's you. You have control over that. Whereas, you know, relationship, it's a dynamic. It's like we need each other in relationship. It's an ecosystem. And an ecosystem, I call it an ecosystem intentionally because the ecosystem, like if you add a lizard to a certain forest, you don't have the old forest plus a lizard. You have a whole new forest because that lizard eats this bug and that bug used to eat this plant. And now that plant overruns the place and it changes the end.

43:38By the way, you now take out the lizard, you don't go back to the old ecosystem because now those bugs are gone and this plant is now grown invasively and you have a whole new ecosystem. Marriages are the same. Relationships are the same. It's not just you. It's you and your friends and your work and the culture you live in and the society you're in. It's an ecosystem. And so it's more about, okay, what do I bring to this equation and what tools do I have to deal with the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune that day-to-day life brings, you know? Because you know that there are going to be challenges.

44:15You know that there are going to be moments where this is blissful and moments where it's challenging and moments where we're connected and moments where we're kind of missing the mark and losing the plot with each other. How will we deal with that? are you going to do it by default, which is what most people do? Or are you going to do it with intentionality? You know, I, I, you wouldn't be where you are in terms of your physique, in terms of your success as a professional, if you didn't do things with intentionality, if you didn't have a plan, you don't just show up at the gym and go, what am I going to do today?

44:46Like you've thought through, okay, it's leg day. Okay. It's chest today. Okay. Today I'm going to do more cardio than before because I'm cutting right now. Like you have a plan. You measure what matters. Why wouldn't we do that in a relationship? You know, because we've been told you shouldn't have to. If you don't, if you need to think about it, you're doing it wrong. It should just be magical and effortless. That's insane. That's insane. Like if I see one more person with your physique say to me, oh yeah, I eat like grilled chicken breasts and broccoli. And you know, I, I try to like walk a lot.

45:18Fuck you. Listen, all those things are true. I'm sure eat a lot of grilled chicken breast and broccoli, but come on, you've got a plan. You've got a plan. Like you, you go in with a plan. And of course, are you able to shuffle around in the plan? Of course you have to be able to be flexible, but you have a plan and that plan is infused in all aspects of your life. Why wouldn't you do the same with relationship in an unashamed way? Why wouldn't you say, Hey, babe, let's have a little plan here. Let's make sure on Friday nights we take 10 minutes and I'll tell you three things you did this week that made me feel really loved by you and then we'll be brave and I'll I'll tell you three things that I think you could have done better as my partner this week and maybe that's a hard conversation to have but we're going to do it because we want this to stay good right and then we'll have some fun I'll tell you three things you did this week made me want to fuck you turn me on okay and then we'll do the same we'll do we'll share that with each other and we'll take that lesson into the next week if you're telling me, I don't have 10 minutes to spare for that, then you don't deserve to be in a good relationship.

46:23You know, like, but how hard would it be to just have that intentionality? And how much if you think back on your relationships, if at the start of the relationship, you made that a practice, you said, hey, this is something we're going to do because this is a job. We're signing on for this job, you know, and I want to be good at this job. I want to get better and better at it. I don't want to get worse at it. I want to get better at it or at least stay as good as this is right now. why wouldn't you have some practice and intentionality to be able to measure that this relationship is staying on course?

46:56But I would think, I mean, from my experience, that at the start of a relationship, the need for a plan maybe isn't as high because things just are easy. 100%, which is how you keep it. Just like when you're 20 something years old, it's really easy to get in shape. My sons are 26 and 29. They can do like three push-ups, eat an entire pizza and still have an eight pack. I walk past the pizza place and smell it. The next day my suit doesn't fit. So this is reality, right? So, okay, so why wouldn't you, when you have the gift of optimism, deep connection, passion for each other, that's the time to say, isn't this great?

47:39How do we keep it great? Yeah. How do we stay in shape? Not how do we get in shape? Because here's the thing, like think about another aspect of life, like a job. You get out of university and you go, oh my God, I want a job. I got to find a job. I want a job. If I could get hired, if I could just get hired, I would, I would be, I would show up and be such a good worker. and then you go on interviews and it's like, oh, it didn't work out. They didn't like me or, oh, I don't know. That's a good fit. And then you find a good job and they like you and they're going to make you an offer. And you go home and you call your mom and you call your friends and you say, I think this is good.

48:15It's not only a job, this could be a career. Like there's room for growth. This has like long-term potential. And then you start the job and you're so excited, right? Like you show up dressed smart and you're ready to start and you're really enthusiastic and you want to make sure you get along with everybody. Six months later, you're like, yeah, it's a good job. Really? Really? Like, remember, this is the job you wanted. Like, you wanted it so bad. Like, I watch all these women, you know, in groups, and most of them are in relationships, and they can't stand the guy that they're with anymore, and they're like, oh, he's such an idiot.

48:51And by the way, he's doing the same thing. He's with his friends. He's like, oh, she's the most loathsome harpy ever to castrate a man. You know, they were both miserable. And then the one girlfriend is like, so I met this guy. And they're like, oh, my God, tell me all about it. And he did this. And they're like, oh, my God, that's okay. All that is, is you five years ago, how you felt about the guy you now absolutely hate. That's all that is. But you fetishized that phase. Because then once you get it, you're like, because it's just the job. It's just it. You don't think about the fact that there was a time where you needed a job.

49:28You wanted a job. And if you just could get this job, you'd take care of it. You know, why? It doesn't have to be that way. I don't believe it has to be that way. I think that we can have a recognition of the fact that love is not permanently gifted to us. It's loaned. And it can be taken away. And there was a time when you wanted it more than anything in the world. and if you can keep in your line of sight that feeling of like remember when this is what you wanted remember when this is what you aspired to when you were like if i could just have this i would be so happy like i i have uh you know my law firm in the summer has interns you know law students and stuff and they want to come and learn from us and uh it's always such a lovely thing because there's something about having all of these young people around me that look at me and go oh my god like someday i could do that and it reminds me like oh yeah i guess yeah it's pretty cool like it's kind of like there was a time where i was one of them and i thought oh my god like someday i could be a lawyer like someday i could go into court and like do the whole thing.

50:46And I aspired to, there was a time where I aspired to the life I have now that's my day-to-day life. Like, but it's really easy to forget that. It's almost like you have to really concentrate on what life would be like without that or without that person. Or imagine them dying. If you really get deep and think, okay, this person is dead, how do you feel? You're like, holy shit. But isn't that true, right? Like, isn't it true that we're most aware of our good health when we just got over being sick. Yeah. You know, like when you've had an injury, you know, I'm sure you've pulled things or strained things.

51:20Like I pulled a partial tear of a bicep once. Oh, I thought to myself, I'm like, man, like if I could just let like, cause you don't realize how much you use it. But again, did I wake up this morning and go, at least my bicep's not torn. No, no. I got up and I was, you know, miserable as I ever am about all kinds of stupid things, but I didn't wake up and go, man, I don't have a headache, man. I I haven't torn a lat muscle. Like, no, like I didn't think that. So I think that you're absolutely right. If you keep like Epictetus, the Stoic philosopher was very caught up in the idea of like keeping death and misfortune and illness, like right in your line of sight all the time.

51:56So you never get too caught up in the other crap, you know, and Mike Posner, the musician, you know, he has a great quote where he said, like, almost everything in society is designed to remind, like to take away your attention from the fact that you're going to die. because if you actually thought about the fact that you're going to die, you would not be caught up in the bullshit that people want to catch you up in and buy the shit that they're selling. You would be really focused on what matters, you know? And one of the things that I know you're aware of and many people in your audience will be aware of is once you've been in very good shape, it's a real blessing because I think you will always remember what it felt like.

52:41And if you fall out of shape again, very often you won't fall that far because you'll remember how good it felt to be in good shape. And it will prevent you from getting too far from that. I've been in excellent shape in my life and then I've let it fall off a bit. And then I realized, okay, let me get back to it. And when I get back to it, I remember, oh yeah, this feels so good. This is why I did this. And because you know you can get there because you've already done it. Okay. And so that to me, that's love right there. Like that deep feeling of passionate connection with another person. You've been there.

53:21You've been in shape, both of you. And that's what you wanted. That's what you both wanted. That's what you still want. So that's why I think early on when you don't need it, that's the time to start those habits of how are we going to maintain this thing. And I think it's not big things. It's little, little things. It's little courtesies. It's little affections. It's little connections. It's just those little things. It really is. I think that if we can keep that in our line of sight, that that's the secret. What does it look like then? Is it you're having a conversation about what you both like about each other, what you're going to agree to.

54:00Yeah, I think a simple version of it is what I just said, like a practice like, hey, every week we're going to have, even if we're away from each other, if I'm away on business or I'm going to send you an email with three things you did this week that made me feel loved and you're going to send me the same thing back. And then maybe three things that we could have done differently or done better. Or maybe we just save that for once a month because that's a little less pleasant. You know, three things I did this week that turned you on, you know, like those are fun conversations to have. And it doesn't take a lot of effort.

54:28You don't have to buy anything. There's no course to take. Like there's a part of the reason we don't teach people this stuff is there's no money in it. There's no profit in it. There's no sign up for my free online course where I tell you in 30 seconds how to maintain some connection with another person. You know, there's no book to sell on this. It's not that complicated. So I think that that's one of the reasons why we don't want to teach it to people because we just don't think about it. We just, it's easier to just go, yeah, it's just too hard. That's just not, that doesn't, it wouldn't work anyway.

54:57Like, but really, really it wouldn't. Do you know that? Like, have you tried that? Because I genuinely believe that these are teachable skills. I think the people in my office all have in common that they started out with an abundance of optimism and connection and they lost the plot. I don't think that's inevitable. I don't think you have to lose the plot. I think that you can stay in that place. I think you, marriage is that at some point out of 8 billion people in the world, you said, I want this one. I found my person. This is my person. Like that's a beautiful, amazing, magical thing that you would feel that way about another person, you know?

55:38And it's a really frightening and amazing thing to think that someone could see you, the real you, all of your good and all of your bad, all of your strengths and all of your weaknesses and love you. Like, I don't think that love is the hard part. I think we all feel love. I think we fall in love really easily. I think acknowledging that we're worthy of love is hard. I think we all have ourselves convinced that, you know, if people really knew us, like that they would know what a piece of shit we actually are. And I don't think that's actually true. I think that the people who really love you, you know, like look at your best friends, look at the people who really love you.

56:18If you told them the worst thing about you, they would be like, Hey man, come on. Like don't be so hard on yourself. Like, yeah, we're all flawed. You're human, man. It's okay. Like, it's okay. You can tell me all kinds of awful shit you did. I'll tell you right now. I'd be like, dude, you're human. You're a human man. You're going to make mistakes. You do dumb shit. You think weird shit. It's okay. Like you're not a bad person, that's harder. Like that's harder to internalize, like that you're worthy of love, that you deserve love and to be loved. And I think we self-sabotage it all the time for that reason, because I think we just, it's too hard to accept the fact that like, yeah, maybe we actually are worthy of this.

56:55Maybe we might be good at this. Like, because it's scary, you know, it's scary to like really deeply connect with another person. Yeah. But someone asked me this, uh i think we're on a q a like what what do you think is an experience that every human should have whilst they're alive and i think it's when you and the other person fall madly in love and it's never going to be perfect but you're both like very much into each other that feeling it's almost like you're on drugs it's like it's very hard to explain it doesn't happen very often it's actually quite rare for both people to be feeling the same thing yeah and i think honestly that's one of the best things that you can experience.

57:36It is. And it can happen more than once as well. A hundred percent. I mean, listen - And I feel sorry for the people who actually, because imagine how many people never experienced that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that would be a real poverty to not have experienced that. But I think to tie it back to your earliest comment in this conversation, I think it's good to be a little scared of it because I think falling feels like flying for a little while and then you hit the ground, you know? And so I think that early days thing you're describing of like all that feeling of like, we're just both so into each other and into it and we're really deeply connected.

58:13That's a kind of drug. It is a kind of intoxication. And I think it's okay to be a little scared and skeptical of that. But that's also why it's good to, you know, again, I don't think the two choices are total abstinence or you're a drunk. I think it's okay to say like, Hey, I'm going to let myself feel the deep pleasure of this connection and the like heady goodness of this, you know, this passionate thing. But I'm also going to remember that like, okay, like this is something that a lot of people feel and then it falls apart. So how do we keep it in a good place? How do we keep this feeling?

58:51Because you do know when something shifts, you know, when you're feeling something different. And that's when I think the bravery comes in of being able to say out loud to your partner, like, Hey, what can we do to keep this in a good spot? It's funny because I feel like when you're younger, you are, it's very easy for you to fall for someone. And it's actually funny when I think back to like previous relationships or even just like as a teenager, I would just be head over heels over someone for absolutely no reason. No reason. And then obviously as you get a little bit older, I think you experience more.

59:24You have, you know, you'll go through your first heartbreak, which absolutely sucks, but it kind of turns you into a, it's like it makes you a bit more of a man, more resilient. And then you might go through it again and you almost say to yourself, I mean, for men and women, I feel as though, not necessarily from experience but i think there is some statistics out there that show that men really do feel it oh yeah harder than they're much more stabilized yeah um to the point where like right i'm i'm gonna be cold now i'm gonna put up this wall and like i ain't gonna let myself go again and i was that person but even very recently like two or three years ago somebody managed to pull it down yeah and it was scary because i was like oh shit yeah i don't want to feel this it's happening again yeah but then i was like hang on a second why are you so scared of it like be be and this was when this relationship ended obviously i was devastated again yeah but then i thought what a beautiful experience it was to get to feel it again yeah well grief is the receipt of love and i think that you know there's a line from a joseph brodsky poem that i like a lot where he says i wish i knew no astronomy when stars appear because there's something about like when you look at the stars and you don't really know anything about astronomy that they're just like beautiful lights in the sky but once you know like oh that's actually like a burned out you know a burned out light or heat from like millions of miles away like it's takes some of the romance away from it so i think once you've been like once you've had your heart broken like the first cut's the deepest you know when you realize oh shit this can be taken away yeah like I can have, like, I can feel this deep connection and it can go away.

1:01:06Like this isn't mine forever. Like, and I don't have total control over the emotional state of another person or even my own emotional state. Like that's a frightening feeling. But also too, I mean, in the totality of your life, like wasn't, wasn't that heartbreak like somewhat beautiful? I mean, think of all the beautiful art and music and like the depth of feeling that came from that heartbreak. Like, I'm not saying like, oh, yeah, run around reckless and don't care about getting your heart broken. But like, there is something uniquely beautiful about the experience, the deep experience. Like, you're no stranger to pain and you don't want to die without any scars.

1:01:44Like, you want to live life. You know, you want to live life and really experience everything. Experience joy, experience grief, experience pain, experience loss. By the way, experiencing loss means you had something. Like, if you never have anything, you never have to lose anything. But you never have anything. So who cares? Like, the beauty of it is that you had something. You had something worth losing. For me, I think there's tremendous value in just, you know, really trying to let that natural part of yourself that wants to fall in love be there. Like, you know, I don't really buy into this whole, like, we're born alone and we die alone.

1:02:28We're not born alone. Your mother was there. We don't die alone either. Like there are people around us. Like we're not alone. Like we're, we crave connection. Like we all want connection. We want connection from friends. We want connection from pets. We want connections from a romantic part. Like we all want connection. Why are we so obsessed with sex all the time? It's just friction. Like it's, we want connection. Like we're constantly trying to connect with another person emotionally, physically. So, you know, why, why deny that part of ourselves? Why not admit that this is a huge part of our lives?

1:03:02And, you know, you talked earlier about saying, like, yeah, I think I might want to have a family someday. I might want to have that experience. As someone who has accomplished tremendous things in my professional life and who's traveled extensively and is really just, I've had a really blessed, amazing life. If I died tomorrow, I'm playing with the house's money, man. I feel like I've just done more than I ever expected I would do. one of the best experiences of my life was having kids yeah you know and and their mother and i divorced when they were five and seven but we raised them wonderfully as co-parents together she's been remarried for 15 years to a great guy who's very different than me but it was a wonderful human being and when my older son got married a few months ago we were all at the wedding together and we were all like a big family and it was a beautiful beautiful thing like having kids listen could you have a very satisfying life without ever having children absolutely absolutely could you have a very satisfying and well-traveled life and never go to china absolutely but is it worth going yes you should go you should try it like give it a shot like having kids is an incredibly unique experience that's going to teach you a lot about yourself it would annoy me to miss out on that experience yeah like if i was older and i reflected on my life and this huge thing that could have happened didn't happen i think it's amazing that you and chris and andrew and steven like there's this whole cohort of men has andrew got kids no but he really wants he's at the stage now where he's very open about the fact that he wants to chris is as well like steven just got engaged like everyone's starting to really say this is something i want to do they don't necessarily have a path yet they don't necessarily have a partner picked out but they're all starting to like go yeah you know like this is something that's calling me and i think there's something really brave and beautiful about all of these like accomplished successful optimized guys they're the optimized guys who are all starting to say yeah this is something i'm hungry for and they're brave enough to say it like to say that yeah this is not well homo just announced he's having he's having kids yeah which you would have thought like oh wow i'm not surprised i'm telling you i'm not surprised i'm curious to know how that would change him i think he'll become a we'll find out yeah i think we'll find out and i think i think it will change him in really positive ways i i think i don't know i know a lot of people that regret getting married i know people that regret starting their business i know people that regret any number of decisions in their life i don't know many people that regret having kids yeah i think most people will say it was one of the best decisions they ever made and even if they say man it was really hard they will say it was really hard, but it taught me a lot.

1:05:39And it was like a really, I mean, I don't know that I would say it was the greatest thing I ever, I wouldn't say that, but it was a really amazing formative experience. And I still really, really enjoy my sons. I mean, they're adults now and we have a very different kind of relationship, but I'm constantly in touch with them and I spend a lot of time with them still. And I'm enjoying watching them be adults together. I don't have the kind of ego where I'm like, those are my sons, you know, they're my accomplishments. I don't, so they're, they're their own independent entities. You know, I don't take credit for the magic that is anybody, you know, we all have some elements of our parents in us.

1:06:18And then we have some things that we, we built with our own hands, you know, but. I imagine the experience is generally easier if you're financially stable. Well, you know, I think. Were you doing all right? I was dead broke when I had kids. I was 24 years old. I wasn't even, I was in law school. Interesting. Yeah, I was absolutely broke. I had no money. I had no prospects. I have no business having kids. I had absolutely no business having kids. I was like check to check working three jobs. I, I, there was just no sense I was ever going to accomplish the things I've accomplished. I graduated from a state school.

1:06:52I was a C student. I came from no money. I had no business having children. I was a kid. I was 24 years old. I was a kid. Wow. And, and. Was that a turning point or did it take a while? I mean, it motivated the hell out of me. Yeah. It was like, all right, get rich or die trying, man. Like you got people, you got people now, like, and they're counting on you. Like, you don't, you got to like, like before that it was like, okay, I'm going to eat what I kill, but I can go hungry for a while. Yeah. But now I had a young wife and two little kids. They were two years apart. And I was like, yeah, man, you don't, you don't have time to fuck around anymore.

1:07:30Like you got to do it right. And it was very motivating. It was very motivating, terrifying, but God rewarding, like really rewarding, really, really like, cause it, it gave me something to chase, something to aspire to. I mean, I like a challenge, you know, like I like something different. There's nothing. I hope you never get everything you want. like i hope that you're always a little hungry yeah like i i never want to get everything i want like i want to stay a little hungry like i i think you know that that the the real the will to power as nietzsche put it you know like is the desire to overcome resistance you know and and the feeling of resistance being overcome is what feels good like it's never just enough right like i and i think that usually the people get everything they want they end up doing weird stuff dude i I represent these people.

1:08:19I represent billionaires. I represent celebrities. I represent people that the mask has eaten into the wearer. Like, let me tell you something. If 500 million's not enough, six isn't going to be. Like if a billion's not enough, two's not going to be. There's two amounts of money, enough and not enough. That's it. And if a billion's not enough, two billion's not going to be enough. Like it is, but it is a sickness. I have some clients who have a very healthy relationship with money. They have a lot of money, but they have a very healthy relationship with money. I have a client who's worth$800 million, who's a very humble, thoughtful, has his priorities straight, great father, really good person.

1:09:00Does he live a very comfortable life? Absolutely. He does not stress about money. But I also have a client who's worth$8 billion, and he is one of the most miserable people I have ever met because he just, he feels a deep sense of like you know dissatisfaction he works like they're coming to repossess like his kids furniture and they're not like but he's just got this hunger that drives him in this very intense way but he he's not happy it's a childhood thing yeah for him i think it's a childhood thing i think that i think there are a lot of people out there myself included who were raised to believe that love is something you earn that love is something you have to accomplish things in order to be loved as opposed to just being your birthright like you're like i don't love you because you've accomplished things i don't love you because you're successful i don't love you because you did this right or that right i love you because you're you're worthy of love and you're you're that's it like you're just loved unconditionally that's a very um like your mother when you were born didn't look at you and go, he seems cute.

1:10:07I love him now. No, it was like, no, I love you because you're my child. Regardless. I love you. You don't have to do anything. I love you. If you'd been developmentally disabled, I'd love you. It doesn't matter. You don't have to be brilliant. You don't have to be successful. You don't have to be fit. You don't have to be any of these things. I love you. That love isn't tied to accomplishment. But we start to learn at a fairly young age that you get praised when you do the right thing. You get punished when you don't. So love is taken away when you're not a good boy and love is given when you are a good boy and when you accomplish things.

1:10:39And we start to equate accomplishment with being worthy of love. And so that's already a sickness to some degree. And I think that in its final form, it turns into being someone who has billions of dollars and still thinks that they're unsuccessful and is terrified that if they lose that status, that they're going to be not worthy of love anymore. You know, I know a lot of people that are so deeply tied to these things that, you know, again, they can't keep their marriage together. They have substance use issues. Like there's, I have a lot of, there's a lot more happy people who don't have private jets than there are happy people on private jets.

1:11:18Yeah. And I would imagine there's, you just never able to switch off and it's just constantly work mode. Yeah. And I mean, celebrity is a different animal, but real wealth, like extreme wealth and celebrity have in common that you never quite know someone's agenda. Like when someone is next to you and talking to you, it's like, okay, are they talking to me because they like me or are they talking to me because I can do something for them? You know, I get a little of that now. Like there was a time where there was no profit in knowing me. And now it's like, okay, well, I have proximity to power.

1:11:50I have some money. I have a little bit of celebrity. Like you could sort of, when you're next to me, I don't know if it's that you just really like me or if it's that, oh, you kind of like what comes with that, you know, like, and that's a, that's a thing that if you're not, if you don't have a defined sense of self, that can really, that can really fuck you up. You know, if you really are like, oh, did they like me or do they know I can get a table at Carbone? Like, I don't, I don't know which it is, you know, and the wealthier you get and the more famous you get, like the more that that gets amplified.

1:12:21what's more challenging for a relationship and a marriage the fame or the money getting too much of either that's a great question what i would say is i would feel as though the fame yeah what i would say is is if i had the rankings of your likelihood of misery wealthy and not famous would be the best thing to be yeah famous and wealthy would be the second best thing to be um famous and not wealthy is not good no yeah it's not good yeah could this is something that has been i mean it's with some relationships has been an issue some relationships not like i can be in a relationship with someone who's completely low-key off social media they hate it they think it's stupid and i'm like oh my god it's very refreshing and i like this and then there's the other people who maybe they don't have a exact similar job to me but they got a bit of a following with what it is that they do and sometimes it can come up in conversation like oh like how come you haven't posted me yet i'm like oh because i mean so from my experience just with the things which i've posted and the way that i look there's some weird people that follow oh yeah there's lots of weird people so i'm happy to do that but there's gonna like you have some prepared for the crazy people that are gonna come your way they're sending weird messages and they're gonna start harassing you and stalking you yeah so if you're prepared for that then by all means here it comes so the the question is do you with a relationship do you open it up to the public or do you keep it completely private or do you show i'm with someone, but you don't show who that person is.

1:14:12Yeah. I mean, I think it's a very personal choice, but I'm always reminded there was a story where Johnny Depp, many years ago when he was a younger actor, was doing an interview and he was talking about his daughter, who now is an actress herself, Lily Rose. But at the time she was a child and he was talking about his daughter and he had good intentions. Like he wanted maybe someday she would see the interview and she would like you know when she was older she would see the interview and apparently marlon brando called him and like said to him what what the fuck are you doing like why are you talking about your daughter on an interview and and he was like what do you what do you like i don't know i just wanted and he was like that's not for them that's yours like keep it yours.

1:15:03That's not for them. And I understand that. The clients I have that are celebrities that keep their private life private are happier. I think once you start exposing what I lovingly call civilians, like people who aren't in the industry and aren't in that space, to the parasocial machine that's out there and to the... You're really opening them up for all kinds of scrutiny and problems and and if you do the vague thing of yes i'm with someone but i don't like to that you're you're inviting people to try to like dig into that and then it almost becomes obsessive for some people i just don't think that that's healthy i think that you know you're it's weird that like everybody knows who you've dated as well in the past yeah that creates real issues yeah because even now like there's the whole thing going on with lewis hamilson and kim kardashian and that's like that's everywhere and if that was me yeah i feel like yeah i don't really want the whole world well the trajectory of your relationship then gets scrutinized and and like it it just i think it adds an element of stress that already like being in relationships is is has its own challenges so when you add celebrity to it i think it just gets more complicated i i see in my office a lot of very unhappy public celebrity couples.

1:16:27And it adds an element of stress that I don't think people really need. And I think we can learn something about that just as regular people, even non-celebrities. I think there's a lot to learn about, look, your relationship is yours. Like, I'm not suggesting you have to hide your relationship. You're proud of your relationship and you want to show some aspect of it to the world. Fine. But when did we get into this habit of like feeling like everything has to be a performance and everything has to be a show. And somehow now, if I don't make everything into a show, I must be hiding it. And it's like, wait, no, like I, maybe it's just like what I ate for dinner tonight is nobody's fucking business.

1:17:05And maybe by the way, it's not that important. And if you're that interested in what I ate for dinner tonight, there's something weird about you, not about me. You know, I forget what actor it was. I think it was Hugh Jackman, when he was getting divorced and he posted on social media, he said something like, you know, if you have a problem with the way that I'm living my life and making choices in my relationship, don't talk about it in the press. send me a text message on my cell phone and if you don't have my number so you can send me a text messages on my cell phone it's none of your fucking business what's going on in my relationship like and it i loved the the realism of that if it's like listen i don't know you like i don't one of the things that's interesting about celebrity is it's the praise of strangers like i'm not suggesting it's not lovely listen every time i get stopped four or five times a day Oh, my God, you're the divorce lawyer from TikTok.

1:18:06Oh, my God, James. Amazing, beautiful, lovely. I've never met someone that I wasn't happy to meet them. Like every person who's ever stopped me and said, oh, my God, I'm a fan. Can I take a picture? Absolutely. It's a pleasure. It's so lovely to have your recognition and to have done something that made you feel good. It's lovely to have someone say to me, oh, you're great. That's so lovely. Do I need that? Dude, don't start chasing that dragon. like don't start making that something you need in order to feel good about yourself and you need the praise of strangers to feel good about yourself brother you are in some trouble like you got to figure out like you i i know who i am i like who i am that's extra that's lovely i don't need that it's lovely but i don't need it and that's that's what i think when you're in relationship and it's a happy one, you're not looking to advertise it to the whole world.

1:19:03You're just being happy. Like all the people that are like, hashtag blessed, hashtag best boyfriend ever. They're in my office. They're in my, I see their social media and they're in my office. They're having affairs. They're cheating on each other because that's all performance art. It's all performance art. I knew a couple that was doing that. Like they would make a big deal of everything. They would literally get like, it would be like an anniversary or birthday. they all the balloons would be set up like it was literally a photo shoot oh yeah and then and then i actually knew this couple and behind the scenes of the camera there was zero affection it was the weirdest relationship ever i was like because it's it's it's performance it really is it's performance and i just think the further we go down that road as a culture like it's not a path to anything good everybody knows that it's not a path to anything good like like those people that you know that their entire life is a performance on social media, like they are not happy, period.

1:19:57End of story. They're just not happy. So if a partner at the start of a relationship is kind of giving off that vibe, do you try to have the conversation like, look, we're not going to be doing this? Or would you think like, this is not the right person for me? I think, well, I think you have to, if you're being authentic, I think you have to say, look, if this is something you need in relationship, then we're not the right couple. Yeah. Like I, I have real confidence in the fact that there's 8 billion people in the world. Like if one of them happens to not be the perfect one for you, I think you're going to be all right.

1:20:32There's quite a few other options out there. It's like saying in New York city, like I couldn't get a table at this restaurant. Okay. There's a lot of restaurants here. You're not going to go hungry. You know? So I think the more that you are honest about, look, this is something that I don't want in my relationship. I don't want this performative relationship. so if that's something that's really important to you either we're not a good fit or we have to find some compromise room where we can both be satisfied i think that's the beauty as well as you get older and hopefully you are you're making something of yourself and you start to have more options there is that abundance it just becomes so much easier to just straight up say at the beginning like this is how i live my life this is what i'm going to do yeah this is what i like in a relationship are you down or not if not okay cool well that's one of the greatest things about I've found about aging is that you start to accept like, okay, this is who I am.

1:21:24And this is who I'm not. And this is who I'm probably never going to be. Like, I'm not going to be the strong silent type. That's how it's going to work. Like I like to talk. If you don't like somebody who likes to talk, we're a bad match. Like that's how it is. Like, I love my work. I love it. I love my work. Like I can't wait to get back to the office by Sunday afternoon. I cannot wait to get back to the office. If you don't want to be with someone who's obsessed with their work, I am not the guy for you. Like, so that's okay. Like, that's okay. It's okay to say like, you can be the juiciest, ripest peach in the whole world.

1:21:54There's somebody who didn't like peaches. That's okay. Like, I don't, we don't have to be right for each other. There are 8 billion options out there. 4 billion of them or so are women. So the odds are good. There's going to be somebody out there is going to make you happy, but you're not going to find them. If you're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole and you're spending all your time and all your emotional energy, chasing and trying to turn something like if you can't teach a dog how to drive, it doesn't mean you're a bad teacher. And it doesn't mean the dog is stupid, by the way. All you're going to do is frustrate yourself and the dog like you set out for an impossible task.

1:22:32Like, it's OK to just go. I don't think that this is going to work. It doesn't mean like there's a lot of people I love that I wouldn't want to be married to. in fact all of them all of them yeah so i think it's okay to say you know i think you're great and i think we could have a really nice connection but to have the kind of connection i'm looking to have in a long time i don't think we have the resume for it i think there's some things that are off have you dated someone who is as passionate about their work as you are with yours and talks as much as you do. No, I think it would be a terrible mix.

1:23:10No, not at all. Yeah, I think that would be a disaster. First of all, we'd be fighting to get a word in edgewise. Second of all, when in God's name would we ever get together? Because I'm constantly already at work. I mean, it would just be an absolute impossibility. I think that polarity is part of, I think, the joy of relationship. It's quite interesting because I've been in relationships in the past where I think I've realized now I'm more of a chill type. Yeah, you have that energy. I don't talk a whole amount. I'm just a better listener. Yeah. So I've been in some relationships where the woman would talk a lot.

1:23:50And sometimes I'd be in the car and I'm like, God, this fucking girl doesn't shut the fuck up. Yeah. And I'm like, this is good though. Because when I'm in a relationship with someone who is exactly like me, nobody's saying anything. Nobody's saying anything. And I'm like, I've got to do the talking. You've got to fill this. I'm like, I got to fill this empty space. It's pretty tiring. Yeah. Yeah. Well, but again, there's a balance to be found. Yeah. Like maybe you find someone who talks enough that you go, okay, this is nice. It fills the space. But maybe not so much. Like there's, I'm extreme.

1:24:21Like I'm an extreme talker. So if you want someone who's like, yeah, he talks a bit, but not that much. I'm not the guy for you, you know? But if you're the kind of person, like you could find someone who talks quite a bit and doesn't talk as much as me. So I think it's the same kind of thing. I think you got to find someone just like there are people that are so obsessive about diet and nutrition. And then there are people that like they could still have a good time, but they're still pretty. But it's not like you either got to pick someone who's at McDonald's every day or someone who just counts their macros for every single meal.

1:24:51Like I think there's a there's a healthy balance you can find closer to the end of the spectrum that you call home. and that creates the polarity. Like, see, for me, polarity is what's fun. I don't want to date a dude. I want to date a woman. I want to date someone who has traits that are different than mine. I want to date someone who I'm super intense and don't really know how to rest. So dating someone who's good at calm and rest brings my energy into a more calming place. That polarity is good for me. And by the way, maybe I motivate them to like get up a little bit, you know, and that's good.

1:25:33Like I'm very methodical and organized. Everything is very in its place and scheduled. OK, so I don't want to be with someone who is totally the opposite and chaotic. I couldn't handle that. But is it nice to be with someone who's a little less regimented and says to me, like, come on, let's just let's sleep today. You can sleep in today. You've been killing it lately. Let's just relax a little bit. That's nice. Like polarity is nice. And I think that own that, own that and make it by design, not by default, like really identify what it is that, that turns you on intellectually about another person.

1:26:10Because I think if you, if you, if you have that in your line of sight, I think you're, you're much more likely to reach that destination. Yeah. One more question before we wrap up. You're probably the person on the planet who's been asked the most questions about marriage and relationships. Is there one question that you wish people would ask you more? Or one question?

1:26:41you know a question that i've been asked a few times that i understand why people ask it but i think it's an important question and it's still a puzzling question is people often ask me do i still believe in love and i i think it's an important question but it seems a crazy question to me because it's like asking me, do I believe in gravity? Like it's undeniable. Like it's there. Like it's, it's everything. It's the only thing. I think most of what we're doing is that. So I think it's the most important question. Like, do you believe in love? Do you think that love should be the most important thing in our lives?

1:27:22You know, feeling it, expressing it, Like love as an emotion and love as a verb, like to treat people with love, to feel love, to give love to other people. I think that's the fundamental question we should all be asking is like, what am I doing to radiate love? And what am I doing to receive love in my life? Because I do believe having now represented very normal, regular people and having represented the ultra wealthy, ultra successful, ultra famous. When people look back on their lives, what they really remember are moments where they felt deep love and where they felt loved. They don't really remember like I owned this supercar or I went on this vacation.

1:28:09I think they really remember when they felt love and when they felt loved. So I think really the question that is the most important one to ask anyone you're talking to and to ask yourself is, when do I feel love and when do I feel loved? And in what aspects of my life am I creating and radiating love to other people and to the service of other people and to the service of, you know, it can be your audience, it can be your family, it can be like, there's so many opportunities for us to give love and to receive love in turn. And I think fundamentally all of this success, physical fitness, all these things, they're all temporary things.

1:28:55I genuinely believe that love is the question and love is the answer. Beautifully said. Where can people find you on social? At NYCDivorceLawyer on Instagram. And you can find me wandering around the courthouses of Manhattan most of all. But it was a blast, man. It was great. Thanks for taking the time. Absolutely, man. It was great.

1:29:21Thank you.