By order of the Premier League

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3:43Luke Moore: You saw me standing alone, everybody. Welcome to the Football Ramble! England lost at Wembley and Man City lost in court. It's Monday, 28th of September. I'm Marcus Speller. I'm Jim Campbell. And I'm Luke Moore.

4:07Luke Moore: Hello, everybody. Good to have you with us. What a momentous Monday we've had at... As the bangles say. In a first draft. Oh, my goodness. Where to begin? Where to begin? Well, as a lot of football fans, or some football fans, certainly in the north-west of England, would often remind us, club before country. So we'll start with Manchester City. That was Hitch and Marcus, eh? That will. Dagger in the heart, that. I saw a... Kick them while they're down. At Wembley on Saturday night, I saw a Wolves fan who had a t-shirt in front of me. Wolves badge, England badge. It's a club and country. I said, good boy.

4:46Luke Moore: Can be done. Can be done. Thank you very much. You don't have to choose. They play in different competitions. Anyway, Manchester City, they've been found guilty. Of most, nearly all, the vast majority, 114 out of 115. What was the one they got off with? People on Facebook were saying it's overcrowding in their stadium. But I believe that when these guilty verdicts were read out, that American chap who we saw a lot during the early noughties just said, ladies and gentlemen, we got them. Look, it's 114 of the 115. 99.13 % of the charges. There we are. Jim, you once said, you know, I'm sure it's 115 misunderstandings.

5:31Luke Moore: It would appear it was just one. Egg on my phone. Yes, indeed, yeah. Would you like to apologise? No. Okay. Tell us what the charges are, though, so we know where we are with things. So there were charges for failing to provide accurate financial information from 2009 to 2018. 54 of them. 54. Sounds bad. I'm no legal expert, but that doesn't sound good. That's in the bag. There were some for failing to provide accurate details for player and manager payments from that same period. 14 of them. So not as bad. 14, obviously less than 54. There were just five for failing to comply with UEFA's rules from 2013 to 2018.

6:18Luke Moore: Seven. We're finally free of the yoke of European domination now, because we Brexit-ed, so they're not as important. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Seven, just seven, were for breaching Premier League profitability and sustainability rules from 2015-2018. The last one's my favourite. And then failing to cooperate with the investigation from 2018 to 2023. 35, so we're back up. 35 times they failed to cooperate. That could hurt you, Man City. That might come back to hurt you. Count punishment day. Seldom does one say this, but could have learnt from Chelsea. Yeah, massively. They could have learnt from anyone who cooperated, Marcus.

6:57Luke Moore: Or they could have learnt from all the clubs who have not done any of these things. I mean, look, I understand that there will be Manchester City fans listening to this and going, oh, come on, you know, you shouldn't be gleefully reading all this. But the thing is... Well, to whom I would say get fucked. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, 100%. Your club has basically stolen the memories and achievements of loads of other clubs over the time. So if you are one of those people, just stop listening. To me, as you said, look, 35 for failing to cooperate. You've got to pay the piper. Absolutely. You've got to do the Poznan in the last 15 years.

7:30You've got to pay the piper.

7:31Luke Moore: Turn around and look. Turn around and look at what's going on. Yeah. Even that was stolen. Yeah, whack that one in there. Maybe that's the one they got away with. That's the one. Man City chairman, Khaldun Al Mubarak, has said he remains confident that the club will be cleared of any wrongdoing. And if Man City appeal, they will appeal, one would think. Hence the statement from the chairman. It's a weird statement given that he says he remains confident the club will be cleared. They've not been cleared. They've been found guilty. Even that's quite a weird way of framing it and shows you just how dismissive they've been of the entire process.

8:09Because ultimately, if Al Mubarak was going to respect this as a proper, thorough process, which, by the way, it should be because he's gone for so long, he should say he's disappointed with the verdict because it is a verdict, and they intend to appeal, after which they're confident they'll win the appeal. Not, we'll be cleared of any wrongdoing. You haven't been cleared of any wrongdoing. You've been found guilty of all of the wrongdoing, apart from one charge.

8:32Luke Moore: Are these the words of a man who's not often? Not used to being told, yeah, possibly. The statement is obviously they are going to appeal so the statements not going to go ah yeah we did it, we'll still appeal but we didn't do all this. Yeah of course, you say we're disappointed with the verdict, we intend to appeal it, we think it's wrong, fine. But the language in it is manipulative. At least acknowledge the verdict's happened. Yeah, it talks about family and it's essentially trying to whip up the fan base that they have already and it essentially just maintains the non-engagement with accountability that they've practiced throughout it.

9:01Luke Moore: And it's the same tactic they've had the whole way through, so you sort of dismiss it and pretend that they're above it and that it's a witch hunt and to just essentially not engage with the idea that they could possibly have done any of these things. Which is why it's taken so long by the way. Would you say, speaking of the fans, would you say that they've taken it well? It has been absolutely fascinating to watch the way this has played out online, isn't it? Now, I'm not a massive fan of that online trope of like, X needs to be studied, but I do think the kind of mass kind of denial that we've seen from a lot of kind of online City fans is something that might actually be sort of in university papers in years to come because so many of them cannot engage with the, basically the fact of them being found guilty.

9:44Luke Moore: It's like they've been practicing these arguments for three years now, so they're still in this mindset of this being like an ongoing process and this not being a verdict that has been reached, which as you've touched on with a statement, has been. And it's like, it's really fascinating. There's a few people have been kind of quite good on it. Simon And Hanstone, the Guardian writer, was excellent, very eloquent on it. But it's quite mad. I would say, I listened to the radio, there was a radio debate about it over the weekend, and they got a number of City fans on from across the spectrum. And in the interest of bands, I would say a good handful of them were perfectly reasonable about it.

10:17Luke Moore: What did you think of that Man City, the big Man City fan account on X, saying that encouraging the Man City chairman to raise oil prices? So maybe... Little help, Mary. This is the stuff that doesn't help, is it? So maybe we would rethink it, you know? which is of course how you get justice but Jim you're not a fan of whenever I bring Arsenal fans online to the table you're not a fan of it but now you are have you seen Arsenal fans online fair enough I just want to have a go to that yeah exactly it's fair enough we're not talking about Arsenal today we're not talking about Arsenal no I agree with Jim I think it is it's not hugely surprising because you know you do get the more extreme end of the fan base on these type fan accounts people who dedicate you know the vast majority of their what should be working life to running a fan account tend to be obviously a lot more one-eyed than the normal everyday person.

11:06So it's not surprising from that side. Also, a lot of them are young, right?

11:10Luke Moore: It's the partisan nature of football. Which is what does make football great. I mean, obviously, there's limits to that. But you have to have sympathy with some Manchester City fans because, again, the amount of money that you have to pay to go and watch them and how much you invest, as you say, Luke, just for your average fan, not necessarily one who's on social media all the time. You do that. And yes, you probably do find community in that with the people you sit around, you know, and you listen to what the chairman says, what the hierarchy says of the club, and you get excited when they win things, excited when they play wonderful football, great signings, and so on.

11:48Luke Moore: But, you know, it's therefore very difficult when someone says, oh, by the way, all that stuff you saw is tainted. It's very, very difficult to turn around and go, oh, bollocks, yeah, is it? And I don't think the right response is to be completely blind about it. I mean, again, 114 charges, you've been found guilty. It may take a while for some fans to kind of let that seep in because it's such a major thing. It feels like the stages of grief, right? Yes, it does, yeah. Seeing it play out. I'm sure a lot of them will come to accept that and many of them maybe won't. But at the moment, there's so many people blaming the consequences of their cheating on anything other than them cheating.

12:23Luke Moore: But I suppose that's a completely natural and normal human reaction. But that's not what the fans do. The fans are not privy to these emails. In fact, nobody was until that. Football leaks. Football leaks. Was it Rue Pinto? His name is. You know, until he, and so, you know, obviously there's some saying, wait a minute, you can't just break in there and some say, ah, he's a Robin Hood for crying out loud and they've got all that chat going on. So football fans, you turn up to the stadium, you hear the stadium announcer, you see the team, you support them. As I said, that's what your focus is on.

12:50Luke Moore: And you're saying, well, how come that's tarnished by all this murky business going on in boardrooms and on fax machines and all that crap? I'll tell you why. No, but it's the disconnect, which is why fans... But they should be... It's because fans aren't prepared emotionally to blame people associated with their own club. Of course. They would rather blame the messenger, effectively. They'd rather shoot the messenger, right? And I do think, you know, take the piss out of them for how a lot of them have responded to this, and that's fair enough. In many ways, that's the role of this show. So I get it.

13:19But I do... If I'm being empathetic and kind of put myself in their position as much as I can, you know, it's not too much of a stretch to imagine that if you've gone and made an amazing memory of your kids or something, or your dad or whatever, your family members, and you've seen trophies being lifted, and at the time, you know, you knew that there was a financial situation around City because that's how they got to where they got to, but you probably can dismiss that by saying, well, loads of clubs do that, that's modern football, and you didn't know all this wrongdoing was going on at the time.

13:47It would be incredibly difficult to process that quickly about saying that's actually false. That's actually built on a false report.

13:54Luke Moore: We had those with Portsmouth, though. Yeah, exactly. Obviously it's a differing... Yeah, kind of. It's a different situation. I'm not saying it's a different situation because I'm trying to dismiss what happened at Portsmouth. No, but it's a different situation. Yeah, but it was... compared to this it was very different. You have an ounce of your own experience with it is what I'm saying. And also, these fans are going to listen to the statements coming out from their own club. Of course they are. So a lot of them, I think, have been really shocked because they've taken all of that at face value.

14:17Luke Moore: And they thought that this would not go the way it's gone so far. But it's good that we had a verdict. Yeah. Because this is hanging over for so long, far too long, partly because of the way Man City have conducted themselves throughout this process, as you've already said. But it's good to have a verdict. Now, what needs to happen as quickly as possible is they need to establish the specific liability, as they've said. They need to say what the sanctions are going to be. They need to get the appeal process through as quick as possible, because this has been going on for far too long. And ultimately, you know, we need to get it behind us.

14:50We need to be able to move on. City needs to take what's coming their way. We need to move on.

14:52Luke Moore: Well, there are Premier League rules related to this. So I suspect that the scale of it means that in reality, it'd be very, very difficult to do this as quickly as the rules say it should be done. But under the Premier League rules, City would have 14 days from the announcement of the verdict to submit an appeal. And the process that follows that should be completed in less than 12 weeks from then. Yes! Yeah! Once that's been heard, which should happen in a block of no more than five days, basically the panel, publish written results, etc, etc. But I just think surely the scale of this makes that impossible.

15:28Luke Moore: Get it done. Get it done. Jim, get it done. Get it done. There we go. 114 verdicts, though. So each one could take 12 weeks. That's what they're going to do. I think they should do it like Eurovision. What, Graham Norton's commentators? Yes, yeah. Graham Norton's getting drunk in the corner. So different countries. Let's start the investigation. It's never a different country. It's different charges. Hello. And now we're going to hear from the UEFA contingent about these charges. And they do it that way. Or maybe let a club do it. Do each one. Yeah, well, Arsenal presumably. Yeah, yeah. Let's hear what Birmingham City have to say about it.

16:06That'd be great. Hello, everyone. I think they should get a million pounds. That's not a Birmingham accent. I was about to say, which club was that? They had about nine accents at once. Yeah, it was. Yeah, yeah. All right.

16:18Luke Moore: You've been punished by order of the Premier League. Something like that. What do you think about punishments there? Because ultimately, the guilty thing's been found. We don't know what's happened with the appeal. Fine. So we should talk about sanctions now. Ultimately, that's what we're all looking at. What is it going to be? And Chelsea obviously got their fine for what they did. But the fact that they were the cooperative, I think... Previous owners as well. Previous owners. I think a lot of people would think that was lenient punishment. So there might be a bit of whataboutery with that. but let's put that aside.

16:49Luke Moore: Everton just paid Burnley£35 million. That's separate though, because that's... No, I'm just... but these are other things that people will start to swirl around their head. Everton obviously had points deduction as well. These are, you know, more minor things. So we've seen clubs in recent seasons face punishments, you know, Leicester City as well. This, I mean, you know, I mean, if we wanted to sort of speculate and guess, I think the most extreme example would be expulsion from the Premier League you talk about them going knocked down to League 1 or League 2 and how that would work I mean that's the most as extreme I think you could get there's an actually even more sort of extreme kind of addendum to that as well Ben Jacobs reported that if City were expelled from the Premier League the EFL would also expel them in solidarity now that's extremely unlikely to happen but that's the doomsday scenario, isn't it?

17:44Luke Moore: Where you have to like basically start again. I can't imagine that happening. I don't see anything - Over to you, National League. Yeah, I don't see anything retrospective happening. Because I think that opens up a can of worms. And I can go into detail on that if you want me to. What in terms of stripping titles? Well, I just think that if you say, yeah, so for example, you strip them from a title because you say, I don't know the detail because it's been so opaque, but say it's one particular season where it's particularly egregious, so they strip them from one title, right? So Pochettino was talking about this recently saying that Spurs should have had the title.

18:15Luke Moore: Yeah, he's got his own reasons for that. Of course, of course. But it doesn't matter what season, I'm just giving an example. The problem with that is if you're saying that then effectively all their results in that season are invalid... You are in big... Yeah, because if a team has been relegated and they go, we got relegated by three points and we lost two games to them and you said that they were cheating, thanks very much, we were appealing that as well. It sets a whole precedent and the whole thing has ripples. It's like fucking Inception. Yes. Do you know what I mean? So I think that's difficult.

18:40I also think...

18:41Luke Moore: I thought you were going to say butterfly effect, but fine. Yeah, I don't know why I said Inception. Yeah. Trying to sound cool. Yeah. Well, you did. But, oh, thanks, mate. The other thing I would add to it is that if you strip them from their titles in a league situation, you know, for example, say what happened in Tour de France between 1999 and 2005, Lance Armstrong stripped from all seven titles. Yeah. The way that the Tour de France did it, even though cycling is far more straightforward because it's just a single individual kind of winner, although there are teams in it, but it's the individual winner, general classification winner.

19:12It's now listed that in 99 to 2005 inclusive, there is no winner of a Tour de France.

19:17Luke Moore: Yes. Right? It didn't give it to the second place person. Yeah, yeah. Probably got their own reasons for that. But in the... So to me, that just seems unsatisfactory. I think that's preferable to keeping it as it is because I think there's an argument about that people make, oh, it looks really bad for the Premier League. But I think the shame there is all cities. I mean, you know, no team had won it, what, four times in a row, obviously, before Man City did. Now, I know some would say, well, they've won them sort of after, but, you know, let's... But can I just... Go on, go on. Because I get what you mean, but you've still got to take into account the previous point I make.

19:49Because if you're saying then that City are no longer Premier League champions, you're effectively saying their results are invalid. If you say their results are invalid, every single team that's lost to them in a key game that's relegated them or stopped them finishing for Europe or a Champions League, It sets open a whole new legal precedent, which will never end.

20:05Luke Moore: But that is the scale of what they're guilty of here, though. And I don't think that should be shied away from. Now, obviously, what happens legally in terms of other clubs that want to take them to court will be thrashed out later and individual clubs will figure that out. And that is a minefield. But I don't think that just because the consequences of what they've done invite complications, that that should really be smoothed over. But I'm not saying smooth it over. I'm saying you can punish it in a different way. I'm saying that you can ultimately, you don't want to get too philosophical about it but ultimately you punish them in a different way, everyone knows what they've done everyone knows that they've behaved in the way they've behaved so punish them in a forward looking way I've seen some people suggest you almost punish them in a way that is commensurate of what they've done before but you do it forward facing I think both are important personally I would be in favour of a massive points deduction which effectively relegates them for, so essentially you say, because you say the appeal goes on for a while, so say you get to the point where next summer you can say, you know, 80 point deduction.

21:10They have to play the season out knowing they're going to be relegated. Then they get relegated.

21:14Luke Moore: Hair shirt away kit. Exactly. Then they get relegated and then they're down in the championship and then that's their punishment. And obviously there'll be a big fine as well and maybe you do a point deduction across a number of seasons, I don't know. But the point being that if you, for the authorities, I can see given that they probably, there isn't a massive appetite to be snarled up in this for the rest of time. Sure. There is some football administration to be happening at the same time. You know, games need to be played. You know, things need to happen. It's just much cleaner. Now, the severity of that, I mean, you guys talked at the top of this about them being kicked out of the league entirely.

21:48You know, we'll leave that to the people who know what they're doing, I suppose. But I don't think any retrospective thing gets us anywhere long term other than just punishing them for the sake of it because, you know, it makes us feel good.

22:00Luke Moore: Well apparently there's a little appetite from those within the Premier League to strip Man City's titles away, possibly for those reasons you say. I don't, my guess, and it is just purely a guess, would be they'll get a very heavy fine and a heavy points deduction. And with the points deduction is, you know, that's a scale. You can move that up and down and therefore it can be used with other teams who do this. if it's kicking them out of the league that is I mean if they feel that that's the right thing to do you know I'm just trying to get in their heads and trying to think practically what would they like because if another team is found guilty of this which I suspect they won't be but you never know it sets a precedent for that whereas a points deduction as you say effectively relegates a team you can move that up and down as severe as you like I wonder if actually they give them a points deduction and say minus 40 so they have a fighting chance of staying in the league.

22:55Luke Moore: But anyway, that's just... I don't think they should do that. No, the scale of it is massive, isn't it? And those 35 charges for failing to cooperate, I think are going to be something that is a real driving factor and punishment. I think that's the real sting in the tail. You could also kick him out all the cup competitions for a period of time. Well, I'll tell you something, talking to the cup competition, Tony Pulis says he feels cheated over Stoke City's 2011 FA Cup final defeat to Man City. That's just one. Yeah, I'm glad he's front and centre here. And Alan Pardew on the radio saying that his Newcastle United had missed out on Champions League when he was league manager.

23:26Luke Moore: That's the issue. That's what I'm saying. And Pardew, I actually felt a tiny bit sorry for him for a change. He was there saying, well, yeah, I mean, if we'd have made Champions League, I would have been, you know, I'd have had a go at the Champions League. You know, could that, you know, Wasn't he the manager when West Ham signed Tevez and Mascherana, though? Yeah, I mean, you know, nobody's perfect. Yeah, so I mean, do you have anything to say on that? I mean, I don't know whether he knew the detail of it. You're getting into murky territory there. We're all in the same sesquite era, aren't we?

23:52Luke Moore: Look, if we're all in football, then, you know, everyone's got a dirty face. But the point is, though, that you're right, Luke. You can start saying, well, this team and that team, and it affects so many people. And that is going to be a can of worms, which is going to be very, very messy. And I think, though, that that should be acknowledged and that should be taken into account because we were talking earlier about the memories that, you know, fans have made during this period. There are other clubs who haven't had those memories because there's a team here who are basically playing to their own rules and the playing field has not been level.

24:24Luke Moore: And I think it's important that we acknowledge those teams that might have been relegated or didn't get into Europe. Teams in European competition as well. It is a seismic thing. It's a really massive thing. We've become really used to it because it's been going on for such a long time. But it's absolutely scandalous what they've been doing. Totally. And it makes Arteta's Arsenal achievement last season look even better, by the way. but the point about the fans the Man City fans and everything I was just trying to be empathetic with their experiences but what I would ask is that they would turn their ire towards the people responsible rather than lashing out at everyone else who's just essentially saying this is not acceptable this is a thorough investigation that has gone on for a very long time partly because they have been so intransigent in trying to stop it happening and trying to object it and obstruct it the whole time and they'll continue to do so So, you know, football's not like this, as you've already said, Marcus.

25:18Football fandom isn't like this. But at some point, people are going to actually look at the reality of what's ahead of them and say, well, that's pissed me off. Because although on one hand, they've invested so much money in the club, it's given us so many memories. They've also fucked us. And we should be acknowledging of that. Yeah, but that's obviously never going to happen. I wonder whether the ownership of City might, as a throw on a dice, just say, we're going to leave then. We're going to wrap our hands in.

25:41Luke Moore: Well, the independent regulator is a factor now. and they apparently have the power to force a sale, which would be a huge test of that body. I wonder if, like, in practice that would actually work. I've rarely seen Jim so excited, I'd be surprised. I'd be surprised. He's absolutely loving it. He's like a dog with a bone. Fuck him. Yeah, fair enough. It's hard to see your view. It's time for Mike Ashley to return to Premier League. Yeah, with them. What's interesting is that obviously Marcus and I don't support clubs that have been going toe-to-toe with them for so long, and the frustration and the emotional kind of rollercoaster of that.

26:10So I can totally see why. I'll tell you who I keep thinking about.

26:12Luke Moore: It's Liverpool. Well, indeed. Jürgen Klopp has an amazing legacy as a Premier League manager. He's one of the all-time greats. But you can't help but look at this. And they had those seasons with 94 and 97 points. And they finished second. I mean, you could make a very, very strong, clear argument that he should almost certainly have more league titles. It's distorted so much over time. And obviously, you get into chaos theory with this stuff. You don't know how these things would have played out if the seasons had started with City not being able to sign everybody that they did or whatnot. But this is the problem, isn't it?

26:42Luke Moore: it absolutely sort of compromises the level playing field. It's a minefield to deal with. Which is why I said it should be a forward face and punishment. That's way more important. You've got to give people a bit of grace to say, this is really difficult to sort out. We're going to sort it out in the most coherent way possible. And this is, if I may sound a bit silly here or whatever, but as a neutral really when title races happened and places for European spots. Manchester City, even in the Champions League, whatever one of... Their ownership, when they were bought by the current owners, it was controversial at the time.

27:25Luke Moore: And it has remained so. And here we are. As effectively as a neutral, I still admired the way they played football. The players, the goals, all that stuff that happened. You look at it now, you're going to go, oh, that's tainted. Of course it is. And that is a shame for the league. That's my argument to Jim. My argument to Jim is it's tainted anyway. Whatever happens, that's tainted. But I think, again, the football purist in me, is maybe what I'm trying to say, is you look at it and go, yeah, that is a shame. That is tainted. Those seasons with that level of football being played, that will be in the back of your mind.

27:58Luke Moore: When you see those amazing moments that Manchester said, whether you enjoyed it or not, they were amazing teams, amazing players, incredible moments, goals, and what have you, and it's tainted. I think also... Unless the appeal is successful. Unless the appeal is successful. But another thing actually on that as well, now that we know the scale of this and now the verdict is here, is I think you can look at those achievements and really go, as long as you're talking about a club of a relatively big size that have a decent-sized stadium, anyone could have done that. Just anyone could have done it.

28:29Luke Moore: Because essentially it's just chuck money at every problem, hire the best people. Pep Guardiola isn't there without all this stuff. A lot of the players that are there aren't there without this stuff. it's how they kind of elbowed their way into this position I can certainly see why a lot of people feel really really passionate really angry about it not just because of that but because of the way they've conducted themselves and ultimately they played what is essentially a very high risk game in how they approached this they could have gone the Chelsea route I know the situation is different but they still in principle could have gone the Chelsea route and said alright fair enough what do you want from us we'll work with you we'll work it out they decided potentially because of the character of the people involved, as you've allured to Marcus, not really sure, but it could be that, they've decided to go all in.

29:12And they've lost.

29:13Luke Moore: The reason why they did that, Luke, is because they were saying the rules basically should be different. Well, yeah, who knows? Sorry, officer, but I think the speed limit should be high. Well, it isn't. I have heard you say that, actually. But it was Pete dressed as a copper. And it was a darkened room with a pole, but here we are. but anyway something a little bit more positive though for Man City from well you mentioned Pep Guardi and one or two others there you know something a bit more positive from former Manchester City men former Man City defender Mick McCarthy abseiled down Molineux a tale of two eras as Man City abseiled down into the football league Mick McCarthy abseils down Molineux do you reckon old Mico was aware of that he thought this is good you can't get any lower than that I can't

30:06Luke Moore: Susie Perry involved as well. Yeah, oh good, okay, nice to hear her name. So old McCarthy and Pezza, yeah, they abseiled down Molyneux Stadium at the weekend. Charity, wasn't it? The Wolves Foundation charity, absolutely. It's the Man City Legal Fund, wasn't it? A very worthy fund, which for some reason the Wolves Foundation thought they should get involved. Shout out the Wolves Foundation. It's a too positive mention for Wolves. Yeah. Find Wembley and the Wolves Foundation. It's actually a bit of compensation for a relegation. Which one, you might ask, we don't know. We haven't got time for that now.

30:37Any of them.

30:38Luke Moore: Oh, dear. We do have time for a break. Coming up after this, England lose at Wembley.

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32:44James, can I just say one thing here? Can I just say one more thing? 7-1. Yeah, but this game's gone.

32:52Luke Moore: I am not asked about this game. I've gone, me head's gone, same right. Can I say one thing Tim? Yeah. If you continue with this bullshit right now, I promise you, I want to fucking knock you clean out.

33:12I don't know why you're laughing. No, no, you're right, I shouldn't be laughing, my apologies, sorry. So, are you going to tell all your followers that I'm bitten you? No, because you currently ate one down.

33:28Luke Moore: Yeah, this game's got me. I'm not, I'm not. I don't care about this game. What about the football round with everybody? Similar conversation Jim and I had on the phone after Jack's on Friday. Right then. England 2, Spain 3. Rooney's the best, isn't he? He's brilliant. Even when he's been really threatening and aggressive, he's great. Whatever mode he's in, it's excellent. What a game, by the way, on Saturday night. What a treat. Well, it was. Spain, you know, obviously, ultimately, one, they extended their record, their unbeaten record, should I say, to 39 games, which is something we shouldn't lose sight of, I think.

33:57Luke Moore: We are going to talk about, I think we can, you know, dissect England here. But Spain, you know, I was at the match. I saw it, Jim. What was the atmosphere like? Do you know what? The atmosphere, I think, was reasonably positive. And I think a lot of people in the stadium totally understood, because they've got the trophies, how good this Spain side is. England scored more goals against Spain. Yes, it was in the Nations League. I understand all that. But they scored more goals against Spain than Spain conceded in the entire World Cup. That's how good Spain are, as if anybody needs reminding. And I think that it was...

34:30Luke Moore: Well, I mean, firstly, it's quite a unique experience generally. and we've seen England lose at Wembley, against Japan, for example, quite recently. But when a team comes to Wembley who is better than England, you just don't often see that because England are a seeded team in the qualification. Often friendlies are, you know, you're trying stuff out on a bit of confidence boost. I mean, I've seen Brazil beat England at Wembley before, but without a doubt, you know, when Spain turn up, it's like, oof, this lot are good. Especially in a competitive game. In a competitive game. Which is, you know, what the Nations League is for, as much as people might groan when it comes around.

35:01Luke Moore: Indeed. we're not allowed to groan in this room no exactly not nor should we be groaning I don't think not under this regime no it's not safe it's simply not safe to groan I've cooperated enough I think but I you can't give the world champions a goal start no we can do you think there was something on Mark Gay's mind well it could have been that was interesting it was him and O 'Reilly who made the mistakes if you believe in coincidences fair enough I'm not really sure how I feel about it to be honest but it was quite interesting that the two mistakes were made by two City players so shortly after this whole thing had been thrown into disarray.

35:35Luke Moore: Yeah, I mean, if you put Gay in that situation 115 times before, or 114 times, he gets it right. But I think... I didn't get a laugh that came out on the radio when I said it yesterday. But anyway... Not your audience. Two of your mates. Two of your mates and the producers who were paid to laugh.

35:58Luke Moore: Yeah, where were we? You can't give them a gold star. I mean, look, I think it's funny what you said, Luke, because I think a lot of people look at this and go, you know, yeah, same old England. You know, we came up short, la la la la. The golfing class is there. I think Tuchel and Gordon were very quick to say, no, it isn't. I think it's sort of somewhere in between. I don't think before, during or after this game, anybody thought England are a better side than Spain. But there was definitely some positive stuff that happened on the pitch. Yeah, absolutely. I think when it got to 2-all, because it's been slightly chaotic with the gay gift and the penalty miss and whatnot.

36:38Luke Moore: When Spain got it back to 2-all, actually on the balance of play, this probably feels like a fair result and a quite sort of topsy-turvy end-to-end afternoon or evening rather. But then Spain just do, they can turn that screw, they can elevate. And then, you know, later on in the game, that sort of last 15, 20 minutes of it, where they really sort of showed their superiority. That was a sense of like, okay, look, yeah, there is still a way to go. But there were so many positives to take from it. I know O 'Reilly made a mistake, but I thought he was really good. It was a really bad mistake. In some regard, I think it was worse than Gay's, because Gay just simply doesn't see...

37:15Luke Moore: There are different types of mistakes, because Gay's got no awareness, and O 'Reilly is very technically poor. But yeah, he just passes it to... Yeah, very unlike him. But anyway, sorry, Jim. I thought I mean this is not going to surprise anyone but I absolutely love watching Jude Bellingham and I thought we saw a lot of the best of his the way he carries the ball no one can deal with it deceptively quick as well it really marauds doesn't it it's proper sort of like he's someone who takes the game by the scruff of the neck but that makes him sound like he's a bit of a headless chicken and he's not that and we all know that but Anthony Gordon had a fantastic game he was what this was an example of what we've all hoped we would get from Gordon in an England shirt and he really delivered and I think he feels like he has a bit of seniority there now and I think this Barcelona move has obviously given him so much confidence and that's allowing us to see the best of him.

38:00Luke Moore: Yeah, exactly. So that's a motivating factor. I was surprised by that goal because I was told by the England team manager that England can't do that in that game. So England's not able to do that. So when they play deep against a team who are dangerous, they're simply not able to break away and score. Having said what I've just said about Gordon, with that in mind, I hope he's punished. Yeah, I do too. It's totally unacceptable. it's not how we play it's not how we play against Mexico it's not how we play against Norway it's not how we play against Argentina Marcus naughty it's not I know so why is he doing it now well like he's gone rogue yeah and more power to his elbow yeah you can't give the world champions a goal head start and I think that informed how England played for that first 15-20 minutes they were shaky they were wobbly but they were unconfident and actually Spain unlike England created three I think maybe four brilliant chances but I couldn't believe they didn't take throughout the game.

38:53Luke Moore: You know, Farron Torres had two in the first half. Laminia Mal had an absolute sitter in the second half as well. But I think the, I think as well, we saw England actually play in a slightly different way. And I think this, I thought, was somewhat encouraging. Because England, and maybe that's one of the reasons why he put Trafford in goal, though Pickford I think is reasonably good with his feet. Trafford in goal, you can remember, you know, debut for him really, for, you know, for England and Myles Lewis Skelly in the centre of the pitch. I thought it did pretty well. Bearing in mind the opposition you have to remember that you know England are not playing You know a pretty good side who have got potential they are playing the finished article This Spain side is one of the best international sides we've ever seen quite frankly in our lifetime.

39:34Luke Moore: I would say You know, I think they are comparable clearly because of the trophy cabinet to the to the great Spain side of sort of 2010 So you have to keep that in mind when you're talking about this and they and Spain wanted to win this game Yes, they always have an extra gear or two than England, but, you know, full strength side and whatnot. So there's that. But England, I think what they were trying to do was bait Spain a bit and say, right, how can we play to our strength? And you saw it with that first gun. Now, there was a slip by, I forget who it was on the Spain side, but England pounced and they pounced well.

40:08Luke Moore: And I think Tuchel probably thought to himself, right, how can we beat these? And you've got to play high risk. And if you're going to knock it around at the back, then stuff like that happens. But I thought maybe that was why he put Trafford in goal. It could have been one of a number of reasons. But England tried something against Spain which ultimately didn't happen. But when you heard Tuchel saying things like at halftime we thought we had them. You know, Anthony Gordon saying I feel we're right there. If the penalty goes in we go on to win the game. Yeah, maybe, maybe not. We'll never know.

40:39Luke Moore: But England certainly brought a little bit of chaos and tried to disrupt Spain. and I think the positive is they did for a few moments and for however many minutes either side of half time and I'm not sure that maybe we expected that but certainly when the second goal goes in the stadium it's like bloody hell here we go the feeling was great now obviously Spain then the world champions but my goodness Spain scored two goals which were gifts so you have to they also missed chances they did my read on this is totally different to your guys go on but my read is that if Spain had a killer up front and Ferran Torres is not a killer.

41:14I mean, he never has been. His goal-scrolling record is nowhere near the very, very top level of strikers. It's not really his thing. Spain would have been out of sight. Like, nothing England did in the first... But hang on, but who's the killer?

41:26Luke Moore: Isabel? I don't know. I'm not saying that... You're saying they don't have one. So therefore, they don't. So you could say... England didn't plan to give up loads of really guilty chances and hope that the striker missed them. But what you've said there is if Spain... Well, they don't. If England had a better, more, you know, Rodri-type central midfield, they might not have been overrun. They don't. So what you said there is, well, they don't have it. But for the first half an hour, England were dreadful. Indeed. And I think that was informed by Gaze's mistake. And we have learned, I can frame it another way for you if you want me to.

41:55We've learned nothing about England in this game against Spain. We've learned nothing. Well, let me put it this way. The only things we've learned are the things we already knew. I mean, I broadly agree with that. Which are that England can play pretty well for small patches of time against good teams. they are fundamentally flawed ultimately though and they hardly ever win against really good teams when it actually matters and they still don't have a coherent style of play under Tuchel however many how long are we into it a year into it whatever it is we still are no closer to knowing how England want to play and if you're going to say that the way England want to play is they want to play sit deep and play through a press of a good team and then catch them on the break I mean fine kind of but the only reason they got away with that is because Spain missed loads of chances And then what happened as soon as Harry Kane missed a penalty is he and which was unfortunate by the way I'm not blaming him for that.

42:53That was just an unfortunate thing Obviously, you know you you could go either way with Kane you could say you know He misses key fucking chances like he did against Spain in the World Cup for example We put some penalty over the bar, but I just I sorry against France Sorry that it puts a penalty over the bar, but ultimately that was just unfortunate and if he had scored it, it would have been retaken under the rules. After that, they capitulated. They were shit again, and they got pulled to pieces, and they lost the game. To me, there's nothing in that game on Saturday other than it was a really entertaining game because there were mistakes which opened the game up and because there's some really good players on display.

43:28Other than that, I don't think you can take anything out of it.

43:30Luke Moore: Well, I mean, Kane, he sort of slightly echoes a bit of what you were saying there. He said the period from 20 minutes to 60 minutes, that's probably generous, what Kane's saying, is what we need to take. we didn't quite put a 90 minutes together at the World Cup and we still haven't put a 90 minutes together and we'll be against a very good side tonight. They've got no identity, Marcus. So I think... Do you think they've got an identity? I don't think any national team other than Spain and the emotional side of Argentina, maybe Japan. I think most internationalists don't have an identity. I think the whole identity thing is massively overplayed.

43:58But could you at least concede, for example, then, that say, you know, Germany had a bad result, but Germany and the Netherlands, for example, they've cleaned house and have now got a chance to build a new identity whereas England are now in that cycle where we're going to be basically placeholding for the next two years.

44:15Luke Moore: The Netherlands have done that. We've seen a number of Netherlands managers over the years. We've seen a few Germans. They probably thought that would Nagelsmann. Do you not think it's enough to expect for England as a big England fan that you want to have a clear understanding a year in of how England actually are going to play? I think it's difficult because England are playing against teams who they're going to have the lion's share of possession and then games like this happen once in a while. I mean, even in the World Cup, England are playing teams up until the semi-final. You would kind of expect them to beat.

44:45Luke Moore: So I get your point. And obviously Tuchel, the problem for Tuchel is he's hoisted by his own petard here because he was talking big and what he was saying was, your identity, we're going to Premier League. And obviously Barry said that thing at halftime in one of the games, I think it was semi-final. We're going to show our Premier League power. They're talking, they talked a good game. that didn't then play the good game. And I think maybe that's where... Because the reason I'm asking, I'm not trying to be a dickhead. No, no, I know you're not. I'll try and poke you for the sake of it. No, no, that's fine.

45:11My point, just look at it through the lens of... On Saturday night, look at it through the lens of, okay, England have got some good players who can individually do things. And so therefore, you do get your breakaway goal. You do get Kane getting on the end of a cross. And by the way, that goal was really fortunate that England scored the second one, which is fine. You'll take it all day long, but it is fortunate. because Cucurello had a weirdly uncharacteristically poor game. But all you ever get is glimpses because you've got a really quick player or a really technically good player or a Bellingham or a Gerrard, whoever the fuck it is, a Beckham, a Rooney, an Owen, right?

45:45That's all it's ever been with England. And that's all it'll ever continue to be until they either find a way, being generous, of channeling that Premier League identity, which obviously is an international identity. It's not really an England identity. Or they find a completely other way of playing. And the final thing, I'm not ranting on, but the final thing I would just say, If you are going to play, like you sit deep in what, you know, modern parlance is a low block and you soak up the press and you try and play through the press, then at least do it. At least be good at it. At least keep it tight.

46:16At least don't make stupid mistakes. Don't gift them things. Don't let them in. And when you are going to do it, have the bollocks to do it. Don't do it like against Argentina where you don't do it.

46:24Luke Moore: Fine, but again, though, but the Argentina game is totally different than the Spain game because England had most of the possession in that first half. But that's why the mistakes are so frustrating. Obviously, I'm talking about the last half an hour of that game. But the mistakes were so frustrating in the Spain game because, you know, what if, what if? Now, some would say, well, Spain hurry you and they make you make those mistakes. And the third Spanish goal is, from Spain's point of view, beautiful move, great finish. And that's what they do to teams all day long. But you could see Gerald Consor's, you know, maybe switched off a little bit.

46:51Luke Moore: And I understand why, because he's had a lot to do during the game. And he shouldn't be playing right back for England. That's part of it. Well, I think the reason why he was played is, again, defensively, you know, he stood up to the task better. where you saw where he probably shouldn't be playing right back as soon as he got into the final third. And I think if Rhys James plays, you would have seen perhaps a bit of a difference. But he can't really defend wide positions either. But that's all lifts and putts anyway. But I don't think Gerald Kwanzaa should be the right back going forward. I think something we're all agreed on.

47:19Luke Moore: We agree on something. But I think, you know, this is why it's difficult to sort of take from this game. You know, how much can you do? I just think there were a few positives there. But in terms of identity, it's very, very tricky. But look, England, I think everybody came away from the stadium. The feeling that I got from those who sat around me and whatnot was, ah, shame about the mistakes. The best team won. But you know what? That wasn't too bad. Considering after what happened, the way they went out of the World Cup, I think people thought, well, okay. Could have been worse. I think now England have got to go, and you've got to put performances in against England.

47:58Luke Moore: against Czech Republic and Croatia. I'm sympathetic to the idea that the last time, I mean, you've taken, you know, moved to the one side of the France game. I am sympathetic to the idea, like the way they went out against Argentina, the emotional toll that would have taken, how much they went through, how hard they tried, how disappointed they would have been. I can see actually an argument to say that perhaps they were tentative and the mistakes were made because of that experience much more than anything else. But I think when people say about England, just final point, when people say, oh, you know, you want them to have a go.

48:26Luke Moore: I think they did against Spain to a degree. Again, to a degree. I'm not sitting here saying England should have won the game. And they're not a better side than Spain, obviously. But with that kind of tactical thing, like trying to bait the press, and also sometimes they did press it, especially for goal kicks. You know, when Unai Simón was playing it short, that's when Spain were like, that's when they get to knock it around. He didn't have a great game either, by the way. No, but that's when they get to knock it around. And so England were doing like what a lot of teams finally realised against Arsenal.

48:55Luke Moore: for goal kicks stand on the edge of the box you can't play it short and when they were forcing Spain to play it long more often than not they would win the headers they would get the ball back and you sort of thought oh okay you can see them trying to adapt trying to kind of disrupt what is the best team without a shadow of a doubt in the world so again there are some positives there but ultimately I think you're probably right look we didn't learn that much about them but still for what it's worth I thought the game was more enjoyable than I thought it might have been Did you have a nice Saturday night out?

49:22Luke Moore: I had a nice Saturday night out It was an entertaining game A couple of mocktails. Yeah. A couple of mocktails. A bit of karaoke afterwards. Yeah. Lovely stuff. I've never heard a tango called a mocktail, but there we are. But each to their own. It's a can of mocktails. All right. Coming up after this, Ireland win against Israel.

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51:50Luke Moore: Welcome back to the Football Ramble, everybody. Right, the game went ahead. Israel played Ireland. Ireland won 3-0, hammered them. Irish, a lot of controversy, of course, for obvious reasons, but the game did go ahead. Now, Irish FA Chief Executive David Carell said in a pre-match press conference that the squad had held a four-hour-long meeting, and at the end they all voted and it was described as a significant majority of the team wanted to fulfil the fixture against Israel hence it went ahead. The Ireland goalkeeper Gavin Bizzunu he decided to boycott the match he didn't play of course and gave a very long statement why he didn't want to play the game and it read representing my country means everything to me I have the utmost respect for every single one of my teammates the manager, his staff and the Irish people.

52:42Luke Moore: However, I reached a decision that I have not taken lightly. I am a man of strong faith and try my best to be a person of character and principle. Therefore, it would be wrong to participate in the upcoming fixture against Israel. My decision is based purely upon my personal belief that the killing of innocent people is wrong. It is important to note that my stance is not in opposition of the Israeli people or the Jewish community, but against the atrocities in the region. There are a few times where you get a chance in life to stand up for something bigger, and I strongly believe that this is one of them.

53:14Luke Moore: Because the Ireland players wore black armbands in recognition of all the lives lost in Gaza. And Jack Moylan, after scoring Ireland's third, removed his armband and kissed it before kissing the team's badge. So... Yeah, it's worth probably just detailing very quickly, briefly, what the protest, the potential boycott was about. I mean, first of all, Ireland has a long-standing history and tradition of being supportive of the Palestinian cause anyway, but UN Commission of Inquiry says Israel has deliberately targeted Palestinian children, resulting in genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes in the Gaza Strip, as well as the occupied West Bank.

53:52The Human Rights Council from the UN in June of this year alleges that Israeli authorities and security forces deliberately carried out acts inflicting death and severe bodily and mental harm on hundreds of thousands of Palestinian children, even after the ceasefire in October. And 73 ,035 people have been killed in Israeli attacks in Gaza, including more than 21 ,000 children, in figures that are seen as reliable by the UN who accept them. This includes attacks on neonatal and paediatric hospitals in Gaza, which have, quote, systematically dismantled children's access to life-sustaining care, undermining their survivors as a protected group.

54:30And finally, for now, because we're in the media, 274 journalists killed by August of 2025, according to the International Federation of Journalists, the vast majority of which are Palestinian because Israel won't let international journalists in to cover the invasion for the most part. And some of those journalists were killed in their homes, despite Israel keeping a record of every person in every residence in Gaza, again, according to the United Nations. So that's what the potential boycott was about. I think it's really important to make that clear so people aren't confused as to why the Irish players and Football Association were contemplating not playing the game.

55:05And I would just add at the end as well, the reason they eventually played the game, obviously Gavin Bizzino aside, whose stance I respect, was because if they didn't play it, they would have suffered sanctions and punishment themselves, which meant it probably would have caused them a whole load of hassle. Some people may say that, you know, that's by the by. You know, if you stand up for what you believe in, you stand up for what you believe in. what I would say is at least they've talked about it and they've contemplated it and they've um they've spoken thoroughly about what they want to do um so yeah they've made a powerful point

55:36Luke Moore: and I think it's really to be respected that among the squad they held this vote and they had these conversations um it's it's a horrible horrible situation it's um not one that football is really want to find themselves in but I think they deserve huge respect for how they've gone about this. And it also feels like a little bit like a lack of leadership. I do see from one side of the view that maybe you do want the players to have a chat about it and decide how they feel. Maybe a lot of the players though may feel like they don't have the knowledge or the experience or the expertise in this area to really make a decision.

56:12Maybe they do, maybe they don't. I just feel that sometimes maybe at association level the leadership should be shown. This is how we feel about this, you know, this is why we don't want to play or we do want to play or whatever. So ultimately, Ireland won the game, you know, great. Feels like a little bit trivial after the things I've just had to read out there. But yeah, there we go.

56:32Luke Moore: Yeah. I was told actually by a chap called Carl who often goes to Ireland games and so on, that apparently 11 Ireland fans made it into the stadium. Because it was in Hungary, of course. It was in Hungary, yes. And they were told 24 hours before the match that a lot of their tickets were cancelled and stuff. So a lot of them, I think that's the chat, you know, and he's very big in the Ireland fans community and said 11 fans made it in. That was the... How did they make it in if their tickets were cancelled? By hook or by crook? I can't say. Okay, fine. But they did. I think, you know, my guess would be maybe some security personnel had a bit of sympathy or whatever, but they made it in.

57:15Luke Moore: And I think the Ireland, I think, was it, maybe the Ireland players went over and sort of ignored us that and maybe shook some of the fans' hands and so on. But a desperately, you know, difficult situation. But as you say, look, they won the game 3-0. Elsewhere in the Nations League, Slovenia drew 0-0 with Scotland. So a point and a clean sheet for Sebastian Pugnoli in his first... Did you see him in the national anthem? Yeah, a little sing-song. It's a great anthem, to be fair. It's probably difficult to not sing it. Even an Englishman, you sing it and you go... It's better than the English national anthem.

57:48Luke Moore: It's better than God Save the King. And I actually thought that Scotland did okay here. I had a couple of really good chances. McBurnie! Yeah, he was so gutted. I think you could see him recognise what a massive moment that was, that had just gone begging. I know, I know, Jim, I know. When he tries to round Oblak, and it's like, that's Oblak, stick your foot through it into the corner. It's easy to say when you're on the sofa. Robbie Yeer, who played, he's had an interesting career. I've not really heard of him. Yeah, so he was at Rangers, and then he left Rangers to go and play for a development team in Anderlecht, and then came through at Anderlecht, but before he could really do anything there, he moved on from Anderlecht as well and ended up being up in Sweden, playing for like a, I don't even know if they're the top flight club in Sweden, I can't remember.

58:40And then he gets picked up by Sevilla, and he's been playing for Sevilla this season. And now he's obviously made his debut for Scotland. It's an incredible journey, really. I really kind of off the beaten track, take the scene. Yeah, it is.

58:50Luke Moore: Great to see him in a Scotland shirt, though, with his full name on the back of the shirt. I love that. He was asked, why do you have Robbie Yure on the back of his shirt, the full name, of course. And when he asked why he's got that, he said that Yure was too small and didn't like it. I think about Big Mid. It's taken action. Big Mid. Exactly. I think of the Live Aid vibes. Big Mid. No one calls the Big, he's tiny, isn't he? I don't know. Yeah. There we go. But in importance. Is this a sort of Spanish styling? Could be. Is he getting involved with the local culture and bringing it over to the national team?

59:25Luke Moore: Possibly, Jim. I like it. You'll have to ask him yourself. On another day, Scotland will win the game. That's all I'm saying. They do. They absolutely do. So I think, again, more positives for Scotland than negatives. And, you know, Slovenia, I'm not... This is... You know, it's not the easiest. But when you've got big Jan or Black in gold, you have to go some to get past him. Wales lost though on the road against Denmark 2-0, which not a huge surprise. Denmark obviously a handy shot. They're in a bad run though, aren't they? They are in a bad run, yeah. But Northern Ireland beat Georgia 1-0 away.

59:53Luke Moore: This is just fantastic. I knew you said Grantastic. It was all about the Charleses. Yeah, well and I'm sure their Gran is delighted about it. So maybe it was Grantastic. And I'm sure the King was delighted as well. Yeah. Sure. Because he's also called Charles, Jim. Yes, yes he is. I don't know whether he knows what the Nations League is though. No, he does. But saving a penalty from Kravatskali is a great little feathering cap, even though it was one of the worst penalties of the year. Terrible. It's truly poor. That's Piers Charles, and then his brother Shea Charles goes and gets the winner. Yeah.

1:00:24Luke Moore: Grantastic. There you go. It's always nice to have a fuller man in there. Yes, absolutely. Take note, England. While we're on international football as well, those of you who follow us on Instagram will be familiar with an item called Donaldson's Curse. Here and there, Pete will put a curse on a team. Last week, he did it against Italy, and they got done 2-0 by Belgium, 2-zip. So, Pete can curse things. This is something we should all look into. I would say Pete's found a use. He found a use for Pete.

1:01:05Luke Moore: Oh, dear. Why didn't he do Spain? He's got his power. That would be classic Pete though. Well, I'll use it for other people's benefit, but not ours. I'll get pelted for saying that about Pete. He'll text me in a minute. When you listen to this, he'll text me. So will he's legions of fans? Yeah, he will. So you know what to do. Nerds. Oh, I don't know. Must be a couple of hard men in there somewhere. Right, we're going to finish there, I think. Thanks for listening to the Football Ramble, part of the Acast Creator Network. We'll be back tomorrow to preview England's game against the Czech Republic.

1:01:36Luke Moore: So hit subscribe so that you never miss an episode. Hey, we'll get another England game so soon after the last one. It's me and you previewing tomorrow, isn't it? Of course it is. Yeah. Jump on that grenade, Rory. No problem, mate. Happy to do it. All right. We'll go to more England chat tomorrow. And Scotland as well. Yeah, of course. Why not? Joking aside, I just try and provide a bit of a fool to you, Marcus. I like international football. I've got no problem with it. Good boy. For me, international football's done nothing wrong. No, I don't think it has. I don't think it has. Right. Thank you, Luke.

1:02:06Luke Moore: See you. Thank you, Jim. Thank you. Thank you, the Nations League, once again.

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