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3:19Luke Moore: With arms wide open, everybody, welcome to the Football Ramble! Spurs survive in Sunderland the Europa League! It's Monday, 25th of May. I'm Marcus Speller. I'm Luke Moore. And I'm Jim Campbell.

3:43Luke Moore: and just like that the Premier League season came to a close for another year what better way to do the wrap up the whole Premier League season than starting with a Creed lyric I think we can all agree that is what keeps the punters coming back with arms wide open but the door has to shut Yeah Creed are the biggest selling band in the US of the 2000s Yeah And they broke up in 2004 That's how big they were That's how much money they made They got back together recently and they did a cruise Oh I saw that Yeah I saw that They played like two or three nights Seriously though we should apologise to the listeners for this Yeah sorry about this This is like 30 seconds at the start of the Premier League wrap up on Creed Plug in a Creed cruise that's already happened You two did that I'll tell you what I'll be like You set the trap you set the trap you're not innocent I'll tell you what I'll be just like a Creed cruise go on then World Cup watch parties I'll tell you what back to you Marcus yep if you want me to stand on stage with arms right open and beckon you in to I'll happily push you out to sea with the World Cup Dreamland that is happening this this summer for England's group stage games then you're very welcome because we're going to do it tickets have now sold out though for England versus Croatia for our World Cup watch party on the 17th of June.

5:02Luke Moore: But if you missed out on a ticket, don't worry. Tickets are still available for our watch parties for England's other two group games. You could see England progress or go out of the tournament. You see, the first game, there's less jeopardy. But the second and third games, my goodness, it really does get very exciting. So the two other group games are Ghana. That's on Tuesday, the 23rd of June. And Panama on Saturday, the 27th of June. If you fancy joining us at 40 Foot Brewery in North London for pints of my fizzy yarn, giant screens, pre-game live chat and loads more. Then click the link in the show notes and go grab your tickets while they're still available.

5:38Luke Moore: Don't delay. Get one today. A thought about something else is going to happen with people who don't plan properly. Yeah. They're going to see all the photos and all the videos from the first one and they're going to go, oh, I want to go to the second one now. Yes, exactly. Or I want to go to the third one. But the time between it is so short that they won't miss out. Too late, too late. Could be the cry. When the man with the bargains has passed you by. but the man with the World Cup watch party tickets has passed you by. You'll be crying tears the size of October cabbages. Exactly, exactly. So don't piss about.

6:05Luke Moore: The season's over. I know there's a small matter of the Champions League and the Europa Conference League final with respect but this is going to come around quick. So don't piss about. Get involved. Right then. West Ham have been relegated from the Premier League. That's where we have to begin, gentlemen. There's been a relegation. It is West Ham United. It is not Tottenham Hotspur. they survived but West Ham despite beating Leeds United 3-0 they are relegated to Jim Campbell they've gone down to the championship on the final day it feels like they were relegated back in January then they rallied a bit and gave themselves a chance but it was a huge mountain to climb really it was Spurs just needed that draw they got the win of course but they're down West Ham did their bit in the end but ultimately the ferryman made his choice I do feel that that was always is going to be the influence here.

6:56Luke Moore: Moyes has decided. And it's such a shame for West Ham because I think it encapsulates the season they've had where there have been games where they've been excellent and they look like, you know, they're not in any danger at all. And then you have performances like the one against Newcastle, which are the complete opposite. And that is ultimately what's done for them. They've gone down on 39 points, which is quite a high total. And they'll be absolutely gutted by that. And yeah, it does just feel like a season of really sort of... Regret? Yeah, it will be regret because they just weren't consistent enough.

7:33Luke Moore: They couldn't rally themselves consistently enough to really display their full abilities and their full talents. And they had a real opportunity with Spurs being so in their own heads there. Yes. And Luke, with West Ham, there was... The writing was on the wall for a bit. I just mentioned that they rallied a bit. but there are some West Ham fans again I don't know how many but you can certainly you know find some who think do you know what sod the board sod what's going on we need that reset you know there's a bit of chat of that whereas I think with Spurs it would have just been sheer utter embarrassment yeah I mean look they're different profiles of club so we could definitely have that conversation but the reality is that this is a disaster for West Ham it's an absolute disaster you know they they they moved from Upton Park to the London Stadium so they could never do this again or kick on compete at the top level and continue to establish themselves as a Premier League club like you said earlier they've been there for a long time now for 10 years now in the London Stadium and you know listen to the West Ham fans what they were singing they were singing what you've sold our soul for this shithole they were singing yesterday and the mismanagement has been chronic the decisions at the very top level have been disastrous they have made an astonishingly terrible series of decisions over and over again at the top level, sorry, at the top of the club, to put them in this position.

9:01I mean, this is a disaster for them. That is a massive white elephant of a stadium. It costs them£90 ,000 a week to run it or to have it or to rent it or whatever it may be, which I think is coming down substantially, but it's still a large amount of money each week. And there's no way for what they were supposed to be moving to this stadium for that being in the championship was in the plan. So clearly it's terrible. It would have been terrible for Spurs for lots of other reasons, of course. Like I say, they're a very different profile of clubs. The Spurs one is more kind of embarrassment and what has happened.

9:33You could see by the reaction when they won, I think it was Giaupolini who said, or Mickey Van de Venne, we should never have been in this position, but ultimately we got the job done on the day, so now we move on kind of thing. It was almost a bit like, don't look over here, this is a bit embarrassing. Pull your pants up and go away. With West Ham, it's like it's felt like it's been coming. Like they've been stalked by it for a long while. And, you know, it's finally caught up with them. And I don't know what's going to happen, you know, with the ownership and all that type of stuff. The owner himself has got a lot of other things to worry about based on the reporting that I've seen.

10:08But on the game itself, you know, it was pretty tepid. It was pretty thin gruel. I mean, to be honest, I had the West Ham, Leeds, and Tottenham, Everton games on at the same time. and it was all just pretty basic shit. I mean, particularly in the first half of both the games, then West Ham, you know, kind of, you know, put the afterburners on and kind of were able to score and the Leeds didn't have a response because there's nothing to respond for. Well, yeah.

10:32Luke Moore: I mean, it was almost sort of two perfect fixtures for them. It was a shame for West Ham that Everton made a mess of European, trying to get into European football because had they maybe got something to play for, Everton might have put a bit more pressure on there. But look... You could really see the power of that in these two games, couldn't you? You could absolutely, yeah. And obviously West Ham got those goals late on, but even the celebrations in the ground, it was kind of like, yeah, you know, but the fact is that Spurs scored in the first half. Even from the players, Gerard Bowen, when he scores the second goal, he doesn't look happy at all because he knows it's ultimately at that point in time was meaningless and would continue to be so.

11:06Luke Moore: I think you're absolutely right about the ownership being the problem, Luke. I think all of the players that West Ham have recruited well have almost been like happy accidents. You know what I mean? it feels like the recruitment has been so, so scattergun that inevitably some of them are going to work out just from the sheer sort of weight of numbers over the years. What I will say for them is a lot of people are talking about it being a disaster for them going down, which obviously it is. But they've been in the championship before, you know, not for a long time. But from the point of view of the fans, they've always, always got behind their team.

11:37Luke Moore: They'll still have loads of people in that stadium and they will still have really, really good support there. And ultimately, we'll make this OK and carry it through. I know that they've got to sell lots of players. I saw talk that they need to raise 150 million in sales so that's going to be a busy summer for them who's sticking around for that squad and do you know what how many of those players will they want to stick around that's the question you know I take your point Jim Sochek will stay fine but I'll give you that Bowen won't though probably well Bowen was interested in his post-match wasn't he because he said that all he wants to think about is getting West Ham back up but he also he also said you never know what's going to happen he's had a shocker for a week doesn't he but I mean the other quote he said was, I've been here six and a half years now.

12:18Luke Moore: I've had a lot of good moments. Bear in mind, you know, Europa Conference League trophy. And, you know, when you said, Luke, earlier about them going into the London Stadium and wanting to compete at the top level, for a little patch there, they were a European club. They were playing in the Europa League and going deep in that competition and won the Conference League, of course. But Bowen goes on to say, you know, I've had a lot of good moments here and this outweighs all of it. That is damning. getting this club relegated it hurts we shouldn't be in the position we're in but we found ourselves in it and we've not done enough to stay up hurt is the only thing the fact is he says that outweighs it all I think a lot of those fans will agree with him there yes again I think that there there was a slightly more almost fatalistic fatalistic attitude from some of those West Ham fans because they have experienced the championship not that long ago compared to say Spurs who haven't been relegated since 1977 so as you say Luke different profile of club but you look at that squad like I say loads of them will be will be wanting moves away I kind of understand that on one level but on the other level look at the performances this season a lot of those players you would say don't give a damn enough the fans would think well we don't want loads of them to stay so you're talking a huge overhaul of the squad here the money is a problem okay they'll have the parachute payments and so on and it is very very conceivable to think West Ham could bounce straight back up next season but it's not a given it's not but they're also they're a massive club so are Forrest and Leeds they are the example I mean in terms of the players once they've kind of you know settled their sales and know what they need to do there'll be an attractive proposition for a lot of players at that level it's an absolute mess yeah they've not replaced the director of football from a few months ago David Sullivan's doing that he's an idiot sure he's an idiot Luke's sitting there as a Portsmouth fan you know what it is even as a fuller fan obviously a bit more of a yo-yo side but a few seasons down there it's not a given Even the West Ham go straight back up.

14:14And you have to look at like, I mean, the players they've signed in recent seasons, I mean, as you mentioned, there's been a couple who've been okay. But some of the big, I mean, Gianluca Scamacca couldn't score. 33 million. Naefa Gerd, who the hell, I literally don't know who that is. Maxwell Cornet signed in for big money from Burnley off the back of one good season at Burnley. Hardly played on loan at Genoa. Jean-Claire Tadibo fallen out with like three managers in a row. Had to be dragged after 25 minutes, was it, in the Newcastle game because they were so poor. Who knows what's going to happen with him?

14:51It's bad. I'm not saying the fans are going to stop supporting the team. I'm not saying that. No one's saying that. But what I'm saying is if you think that stadium looks like a white elephant and there's been the cause of so much controversy while they've been in the Premier League, you wait and see what it looks like in the championship and they need really... One thing you do need, you can talk about parachute payments, you can talk about bounce straight back, all the rest of it. As a general rule, I believe what you need is stability and calm heads and people who know what they're doing and they have none of that.

15:23They have none of that. Perhaps Nuno sticks around to steady it.

15:27Luke Moore: If he does that, I think that would help. A guy knows how to get out of the league. But I wouldn't read too much into what Gerard Bowen's saying because ultimately emotions run high. I always think those types of interviews after games generally are kind of pointless because the adrenaline's running. for either good or bad reasons. And the more emotionally led type sort of say things they regret or things they don't fully mean. And he's obviously going to need some time to process it. He's the club captain. He's been there a long time. You know, it doesn't get more kind of West Ham than being married to Danny Dyer's daughter.

15:57So there are clearly a lot of ties to the club for him. But he needs to work out what he wants to do. As you see, he's in absolute shock. I mean, I actually, I didn't get a chance to comment on this at the time. So without kind of going off on the wild tangent too much, I actually thought it was really surprising he didn't get named the English squad. He's been used a lot on the two corners. he's actually done okay and he's certainly been their standout player this season but ultimately there is look there is no good news here we can we can we can gild this lily all we want we can talk about bouncing straight back we can talk about you know they're a big club there is no good news here this is terrible for West Ham truly terrible as the years move on it gets worse and worse for teams relegated from the Premier League for all the obvious reasons and this is no exception

16:34Luke Moore: yeah I do agree with that although as I say the only thing is you can find the odd West Ham fan here and there I'm not going to put a percentage on it or anything who will say, do you know what, the board, you know, sod the board. but this is what fans say. Spurs fans were saying this, Marcus. Yeah, but people say this all the time. I know, I'm just saying that there is that feeling out there and I think that feeling is ever so slightly stronger among West Ham than Spurs. I think it would be more of a disaster for Spurs had they have gone down. But look, West Ham have gone down, Spurs have stayed up.

16:57Luke Moore: You know, that is what's happened. Spurs, I mean, you talk about consistency, 2-17 place finishes back to back. exactly. Three points better off, improvement, it's improvement. you keep doing that you're not going to get relegated no well exactly you know what it's like Arsenal how many times have they finished second well exactly and they laughed at you it's about consistency and they laughed at you also Spurs finished three points better off this season there you go so if you extrapolate that out you can't deny it in about 12 years they'll win the league 12 years 12 years just add three points better every year oh you're thinking that the Super League idea gets going again and Spurs aren't invited still thinking about the bad news well look Spurs beat Everton 1-0 they did their bit and of course it was Jaupelinha, that gorgeous warrior with the long legs, got them out of it.

17:41Luke Moore: But I mean, look, it's their second 17th place finish in a row. It is very much unwanted consistency. And at full time, Gary Neville, let rip, didn't he? Said just, I mean, he said a lot, but just to narrow it down to a sentence, the players have been a disgrace. They should be going around the stadium and apologising to those fans. I mean, it is utterly absurd that they found themselves in this situation. Obviously, last season was also utterly absurd and they had a lot of injuries and there are mitigating factors, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But even with the injuries that you factor in, it's a team full of internationals.

18:15Luke Moore: It's a really talented squad in many different ways that has just not been able to show any of that talent when it's mattered. The mentality has been absolutely horrendous. I mean, if they had gone down, like it's up there with Derby County in terms of how bad it is. Now, obviously they've escaped that kind of embarrassment, but it is unfathomable that they were even in this situation it just doesn't make sense if you go back to those predictions Luke and I did a handful of weeks ago where we both predicted Spurs to go down and that was before they beat Villa that was before we saw any kind of uptick in form it was so low for Spurs that we thought yeah they're going down but when I actually reflected on that you're right Jim I was thinking do I really think Spurs are going to go down to the championship I couldn't see it couldn't fathom it as you say and we got that wrong and Spurs stayed up.

19:08Luke Moore: But how much... I mean, I'm reluctant to use the word credit but I suppose you have to give De Zerbe some credit, Luke, because he kept them up. They are a Premier League side once again. They live to fight another day in the Prem. Yeah, so I think... You've got to give him some credit. It's a calculator gamble from him. I did say when it was appointed I thought it was a disastrous appointment. I think it probably will prove to be a very combustible appointment. in the medium term, and I said at the time, you know, we have to remember, we have to kind of entertain the idea that despite what I think, and I thought at one point they'd get relegated, as you said, they might have stayed up anyway.

19:45I mean, they might have stayed up without hiring De Zerbi if they just put in an interim and made a clear-headed decision in the summer. They still may have stayed up, but De Zerbi's made an amazing calculation because what he's been able to do is say, look, if I back myself to get something out of this, get a tune out of this lot, the negotiating I can do for my own contract is the leverage is a mile wide, which it proved to be. I mean, he's on a king's ransom and he's got an amazing deal because Spurs were literally going to him like, you know, Oliver Twist with a bowl in front of him saying, please, sir, you know, will you come and do this?

20:18So he's obviously made a gamble which has paid off and you could tell by his reaction at the end of the game that that was the case. He was, I mean, he's quite an emotionally dead guy anyway, but ultimately the work starts in earnest for him now because he's found himself at a really big club with a chance to do something. But the problem with the Zerbe is I always get the impression he kind of can't stay out of his own way. I mean, the evidence for that would be some of the Mason Greenwood stuff, some of the behaviour at Brighton, some of the stuff I've read about him at Marseille. And just the fact that he's got spiky hair and a goatee shaved into that face like it's 2002.

20:53Luke Moore: It's very Sum 41, isn't it? I think that is the facial hair decision of a maniac. Yeah. And I don't think you can get away from that. I don't know that the board will look at that for a while they don't look at anything true they don't look at anything it's funny you said that because I want to talk about the board they've been a disaster it's been it's been absolutely rotten in terms of the quality from start to finish and you know if you look at some of the banners I mean you mentioned Gary Neville there he did a big old bit in the down the barrel at Sky Sports for three or four minutes saying you know this is what's what's Spurs and he was pointing out the banners and I think rightly so and the Spurs fans have protested.

21:32They've put banners up. They've made it clear how they feel about the mismanagement of the club and rightly so. I thought what Alison Rudd wrote in the Times last week about the Spurs fans was disgraceful. She'd be ashamed of herself for the way she wrote about them because ultimately the fans aren't to blame for this. Some of the season ticket prices there are astonishingly high and you pay that money because you love the club and you get treated like that. How you can blame the fans is crazy.

21:53Luke Moore: You could argue they've done all they can in recent weeks particularly to try and help the Spurs. Absolutely. Ahead of that Arsenal game, it was pretty unified until the players just stunk the place out and the fans were pissed off and resigned to it. You know, the moments in which they've got together and welcomed the team bus and really, really organised and tried to just create this positivity that none of them are really feeling to try and help the players. I mean, immense, immense credit to them. I think they're in a really interesting position now because Roberto de Zerbi, for all those faults, is clearly a very good manager.

22:24Luke Moore: And actually, I think if you look at the beginning of this, the next season compared to this one I think there is, obviously they're not in the Champions League in the way they were last season, but there is reason to think that he'll do a better job than Thomas Frank did, so I mean this is a massive, massive sliding doors moment, because I'm reluctant to give a big opinion on this, because I went big on Frank thinking you know what, I get this totally and I thought it was a good appointment and so on, and it just failed to be. But I think for Frank it appeared to me that this is a guy who's going to bring a bit of stability and a bit of pragmatism and actually calm all the nonsense that happens at Spurs.

22:56Luke Moore: Now, clearly that's been very difficult. De Zerbe, as you say, is a combustible character. He tried to turn it into Brentford as well. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, of course, that just wasn't going to work. De Zerbe is much more experienced at different clubs. And I think De Zerbe is quite forward thinking. He likes attacking vibrant football that is going to get the fans on side and is ultimately going to be hard for a lot of teams to live with if he gets the best out of even the squad that they have there, particularly if they get some players back. Now, to Miss Kulisevsky in Madison for a whole season, is absolutely massive.

23:26Luke Moore: That is huge and a big part of why they were there. That might not be an issue for him. They'll obviously, they'll still be attractive in the transfer market despite not having European football because they're a big club, they're in London, all these different things. It's, you know, I admit, I thought this would be the case last season as you're alluding to with Frank. But, I mean, they have an opportunity to just banish these two seasons and make them into a really weird footnote in terms of their story. Roberto De Zerbe did sanction the decision for Romero to remain in Argentina. He makes weird...

23:53Luke Moore: That is an odd choice. He makes weird calls. Do you think he just sort of said, you know what, we're probably better off. Did you notice though, when they scored the goal, Romero was very keen to get involved in the celebration. I am here, everybody. I'm here. But yeah, apparently the fans were so upset that Romero had to get on a plane, as we understand it. But yeah, that whole thing in microcosm is essentially how bad Spurs are across the board. I mean, I think it's crazy. It's not just that the captain wants to go to Ejeltsin at that point in the season. It's not just that he does go. it's not just that people find out about it, it's not just that he has to hurry back, it's all those things.

24:30Some of the external comms that Spurs have been overseeing throughout this disastrous season, it's been so poor. Do you remember, I'll give you an example, a relatable example for you, Marcus. Do you remember when Fulham were really inactive in the transfer market and they made that big announcement about the champagne partner, right? I like that. And people were like, this is ridiculous, right?

24:52Luke Moore: Yeah, but people don't understand football. They had to go and buy Kevin for like 40 million. But Spurs have been doing that all the time, all through the season. The comms have been so bad. And this is a great example just to round off the season at the end. I think, you know, talk about the players, talk about the attractive nature of Spurs as a club. It's all fair comment. I do think he's got a big job. I think, you know, if you look at that squad and what's gone over the last couple of years, you give a bit of grace to people who've been injured and whose injuries have been mismanaged, like Kudus and maybe one or two others.

25:22It's not really their fault. I think that squad's a 50-50 squad. I think 50 % of them, you probably want to get rid of for various reasons. And that's a big job to do.

25:31Luke Moore: Well, I talked about this at West Ham. Some of them will be angling for moves and so on. There will be some players in that Spurs squad that the fans will be very happy to see go. I think there'll be a lot of activity. There has to be a lot of activity because last season, again, the idea of them fitting 17th was ludicrous. But last season, there was no danger of relegation. And now the Europa League as well. And Bostecoglu admitted they basically wrapped their hand in the Premier League. It was a disgrace, the performances they put in last season, for people who had paid money to go and watch them.

26:00Luke Moore: Honestly, I was almost saying to a couple of Spurs mates who don't have season tickets, you're wasting your money because they don't care. They're concentrating on the Europa League, as he admitted. This season goes right down to the wire. You think to yourself, it can't happen again. In the words of Mick McCarthy, it can. The season's been worse. it has been worse but the season's been far worse because they've tried they've actively tried in the Premier League and it went down to the wires last season last season and this season even though they finished the same as you say Luke very very different the way it played out but my goodness something has to change and I think we're going to see a lot of activity in the summer and I'm sure a lot of those fans want the board to sell the club and move on because they've been trying to sell it according to reports for a couple of years now but dearie me they stayed up though bright everybody coming up after the break Sunderland, our Europa League.

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29:56Hello, I am Sven Goran Eriksson, and you are listening to the Football Ramble. Ah, bless you, Sven.

30:03Luke Moore: Right, welcome back, everybody. Yes, for a while this season, I thought how many teams are going to finish in the European spots? Because it was jam-packed in there. But Jim, as always, when it comes down to it, the league table doesn't lie. It's very, very clear. You're allowed to look at the league table now. I officially agree. This is the definitive league table. We are all looking at it. And Sunderland finished seventh incredibly. So good. Obviously, we knew Bournemouth were basically going to finish sixth. they didn't clinch Champions League football for a number of reasons but Bournemouth you know they've earned their stripes they've been brilliant this season and I'm delighted for them I am sad they're not in the Champions League but realistically the Europa League is probably better for them right?

30:45Luke Moore: Yes You can look at that and go we have got a proper chance of winning this Yeah yeah going deep at least yeah Brighton obviously finished in the Europa Conference League spot in 8th I'm so glad Chelsea didn't that it's been such a waste like I said I think even Chelsea would have said can we give this somebody else. And they didn't do it. And Sunderland sensationally finished seventh on 54 points. And that's wonderful because they've been, they've been such a credit to the league and they've been brilliant. And, you know, much was made of their, their particularly early season home form. They were the ones who sort of shocked Arsenal early on.

31:21Luke Moore: If you remember when Arsenal looked pretty invincible, they were, they were superb, but they never looked like going down at any point during this season. And then they tailed off a bit because there was chance of European football. and maybe one or two people thought, oh, have they just run out of steam and they're just going through the motions a bit in the last few months of the season? Yeah, yeah, fair enough. But they've left it late, but they've rallied and they've managed to finish seventh. So European football this next season, Europa League, it's enormous and lovely to see them all celebrate in the end.

31:49Luke Moore: I'm so pleased for them because my beloved Fulham, had Fulham beaten Wolves, I know chaos theory comes into it, they would have clinched Europa League, but it's so nice for Bournemouth and Sunderland, teams that are not regulars. Well, first time ever for Bournemouth and the first time in over 50 years, I think, for Sunderland to get European football. They're there. It's not been stuffed up with the likes of, you know, Chelsea or even one or two others who are so used to being in Europe. So delighted. I mean, it's the story of really, really good management from top to bottom, isn't it? It's the opposite of what we've just been talking about, really.

32:23Luke Moore: When you look at the transfer window that Sunderland have, everyone was like, they have signed a lot of players here. Is this a bit scattergun? Is there much thinking behind this? Or is it just a little bit of a trolley dash? Clearly, there was a lot of thinking behind it. I mean, they've got, look, Nordi Mukiali has come in from PSG. You know, they've convinced Granit Xhaka to leave Bayer Leverkusen. Obviously, there's some real, real pull there. And they've done an amazing job at selling this project. It must have been very, very clear in what they wanted to do and how they intended to play.

32:55Luke Moore: Brian Brobby is a well-known name coming from Ajax. they've recruited really really well there and they've essentially managed to assemble a team who are good enough to qualify for Europe after being promoted from the championship in an environment where we're starting to wonder if the three promoted teams are just going to keep going back down because of how competitive the Premier League has become and it has been a particularly competitive season as well on top of that I'm glad you mentioned that because so many people say oh well this season the Premier League has not been that good in terms of quality in terms of the team winning the league you know much has been made about that the best team wins the league but it's not a vintage Guardiola or even a vintage Klopside or a Mo Salah-esque sort of season for the ages kind of Liverpool team and I think people are getting they look at those top two and think well Arsenal and Man City were much more beatable than we've seen from certainly the champions and then maybe even the team finishing second and Arsenal would come into that as well in previous seasons when they finished second but the rest of the league you're absolutely right it's fiercely competitive and for Sunderland to be promoted and then finish seventh, that's almost a bit of a throwback.

34:02Luke Moore: If you go through, particularly in the 90s, you know, a side like, I mean, Ipswich did it, you know, I don't know if that was 90s or just early noughties, I forget, maybe 1990, 2000, whatever it was, you know, it wasn't outrageous for that sort of thing to happen. Whereas in more recent seasons, more recent times, more recent years, decades, you could even say, is we've come to worry for the promoted sides quite a lot, even though it's not that many seasons where the three promoted sides then go straight back down. It's happened obviously quite recently. So for Sunderland to do that and get into the Europa League I think is massive and I think it's I hope it's not the last time we see something like that.

34:40It's massive because of the journey they've been on personally as well. The basement lows that they've had to experience as a fan base and as a club, you know obviously famously chronicled by Sunderland's life on Netflix. This seems like a nice well more than nice ending to that particular chapter. It's basically a kind of redemption story isn't it? But ultimately for me I feel like I kind of disagree with you guys on a lot of what you said there because I feel like although it hasn't been very competitive and I do think a lot of the criticism of the quality of the league this season has missed the point which I can go into if you want as well if it's not too boring but for this specific point it's been competitive but the quality hasn't been the same as it's been in more recent seasons.

35:27Luke Moore: Where in the table though? Well, I think across the board. I think if you look at what this season has proven, what Sunderland has proven this season, I think, is that you can get up there and have a really strong season and finish in the European places because ultimately you can hustle and bustle your way to where you want to go to. Arsenal have been the best team in the league this season by miles across the board from start to finish, you could say. There was a little bit of jeopardy here and there and they kind of lost it a little bit, had a little wobble, but ultimately they've been the best team.

35:58But you only need to look at the Bruno Fernandes thing to say that Bruno Fernandes has been a standout player probably of the Premier League this season. You can't really pinpoint that many other individual players that have been standout class above everyone else. And a lot of the time it feels to me when promoter teams come up, they come up against these players and they just can't get those players. And it's not been about sheer class this season of like the quality of opposition. It's been about can you get amongst it? Can you score from set pieces? Can you defend set pieces well? Can you get really busy?

36:31And it's come along at a time when some of them have been good to be able to do that. I actually don't think if this was two years ago, they would have finished anywhere near that high. Their XG is fucking terrible compared to where they finished, by the way. So in terms of creating stuff...

36:43Luke Moore: Well, they scored 42 goals in 38 games. Yeah, yeah. Fabio Capello, AC Mellis. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. I don't think that's anywhere near as effective in a season three years ago. I think you've got to look at it as an example of how the league has changed in terms of the aesthetic of it this year. I think in sheer competitiveness, I think it's been fierce in that pack at the table. For them to ultimately finish above Brighton, Brentford, Chelsea, Fulham, Newcastle, and Everton. But yes. I'm not saying it's not good. I'm just saying, I'm just trying to give you an extra rationale as to how I think they've done it.

37:15Luke Moore: Okay. And I do take that point. I do. I think regardless of the style and those sort of conversations. I think West Ham finishing on 39 points is still going down. It's quite a good indicator as well. And to come straight up and finish seventh in that environment is extraordinary, really. Yeah, I think the achievement's there. It doesn't take away from their achievement. No, no one would suggest you were saying that. So I think Sunderland, it was brilliant for them. They've done it. The thought of them playing Europa League football would have been far from those Sunderland fans' minds. and they've been an absolute credit to the league and it's such a platform to build on for them next season of course.

37:55Luke Moore: Gentlemen, let's go to the Etihad where Pep Guardiola's last game ended in defeat. It was his 593rd game in charge and his 1 ,000th and first game as a manager in total. Wow. Wow. Wow. In his final pre-match press conference on Friday, Guardiola said, 10 years is a lot of time and I think the club needs a new manager, a new energy. these incredible players we have right now and start writing another chapter he also got on the mic after the game as we thought he would and he said I know he's speaking the second language but he was like you have so much love for me why would you do that as I have to say it makes it harder to leave but it was just kind of funny the way he could have said it but they lost the game Luke Moore so hang on their faces to a drunken Aston Villa who couldn't believe it themselves by their own admission as well I mean well some of the stuff that the players were saying on Instagram, like Watkins, how have we done that?

38:50Someone commented, you play better hungover and Toro and Mings agreed with them. And yeah, it was all a little bit full on. But look, it feels a bit churlish and a bit petty to say, oh, well, that just sums up Man City this season because ultimately it wasn't going to make any difference to whether they finished second or not. And, you know, it was a bit last day of term. They announced, you know, a stand being opened, named after Gualiola. He has been, the biggest figure in the Premier League of this era. He's probably been, you know, you'd certainly say he's in the conversation has been the biggest figure in Manchester City's history, if not the biggest.

39:25And so that was what yesterday was all about for them. It's going to be super interesting to see what happens next season. We talked a bit about it, didn't we, Marcus, when it was announced that he was leaving. But ultimately, I mean, as petty as it sounds, it's not a great surprise that Man City lost at home to Aston Villa, a decent Aston Villa side. and that could have happened at any point in the season and that probably tells its own story.

39:48Luke Moore: But the thing that they needed to do on the last other season, Manchester City, was get the admin right and they did that. They did. They had two guards of honours for Bernardo Silva and John Stones and they played their last game for the club and as they got subbed off two separate ones, which... Unlike the Seamus Coleman thing at Everton, which was completely undermined because apparently a lot of people said that the club didn't tell everyone that they were doing that for Coleman so everyone just left in the Sunderland game. So there's ways of doing it, aren't there? This was ludicrous though.

40:16I didn't see the second one.

40:17Luke Moore: This was absolutely ludicrous. So when they were subbed off, they got... The old John Terry. Yeah, like both sets of players quickly ran over to the side of the pitch. I genuinely didn't see that. Yeah. I saw the goals. Marcus, talk us through it. Okay, well. What happened was Bernardo Silva, his number comes up, he gets subbed off, he's quite emotional, standing ovation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, like the end of a wedding, you know, if you go to some weddings when everyone does like the tunnel of love and you see him off. It was a bit like he had a guard of honour. Both sets of players. And the Villa fans just wanted a break at that point.

40:51Luke Moore: I don't know, Jim. I don't know if it was a water break or a water break. The Villa fans are in the smoking area, which happened to be. Yeah, exactly. And off it goes. And then John Stone's got one as well. And I was just like... Great servants though. Well, I mean... Well, John Terry didn't. Everyone loved it. Was John Terry there? Just popped up in his kit. I have no idea. Yeah, in a Villa kit. Yeah, that would be nice. Some would say that that is another classic example of how individualistic The fact is that people, you know, Sheeran Rooney were saying on Match of the Day, why have the Villa players...

41:20Luke Moore: I couldn't agree more. Why have they agreed to that? Which, of course, they had. It must have been pre-planned, yeah. That's crazy. Maybe they thought, yeah, yeah, we'll do that. Lull you into full-set security and we'll do that. We'll beat you 2-1. You've got to kind of be careful with that stuff without sounding too kind of games gone about it. The old Steven Gerrard farewell tour, you know, the John Terry thing. These are big figures, of course, who have set the agenda for a lot of our football-watching lives. but ultimately I get that Villa and City's positions in the table were settled they knew what was going to be happening and it didn't really matter but it is still a competition people are still paying for tickets I'm not sure that is the most sensible way of going about it it seems a little bit kind of a little bit tin pot to me you're at home do a post-match kind of ceremony or something there's some recognition of it there you've got every opportunity it's almost exactly basically like Crystal Palace did made Arsenal wait for an hour to do the trophy lift because they want to get their admin done.

42:15Didn't you? During the game.

42:17Luke Moore: He does not have a little walk around doing balls flying over his head. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a corner up the other end quick. Yeah. Nonsense. Absolute nonsense. Like I say, at no point am I saying Bernardo Silva and Johnstone shouldn't get, you know, a standing ovation and, you know, honoured and so on. Absolutely. Anyway, it happened. But the big news was Aston Villa completing a league double over Man City for the first time since 1962, 1963. But my point being that if we had come in here on any Monday during the season, this season, and said Man City 1, Aston Villa 2, it wouldn't have been surprising.

42:51No. I know Aston Villa had some bad patches, but Man City have not been reliable at all. So we can attribute this kind of last day of term energy to this result. But ultimately, it's not a surprising result. Watkins could have had a hat trick, probably should have had. He was very good. He's hitting absolute fire at the right time. I mean, his second goal. His celebration for the first was great.

43:11Luke Moore: lifting the ball like it's a trophy that was great he's having a lovely old time and as you say the perfect time and there was a couple of opportunities where I think it was Leon Bailey could have played him and he didn't he's on fire I think he'll start the first England game there we go but the problem is unfortunately Harry Kane's done that 61 times this season so unfortunately he's still going to be playing second final how did Harry Kane get on in the German Cup final yeah that's in the bag 61 goals in 51 games sorry Oli this really is the end of a few eras with Mo Salah playing his last game for Liverpool as well next season is very very interesting particularly in terms of Man City because Maresca has a hell of a squad to work with there he's traditionally a bit more pragmatic or perhaps that's just because of the players he had available at Chelsea I think he's very much a philosophy type of manager you think?

44:06Luke Moore: I mean pragmatism appears to be within that philosophy to me clearly you have to have a bit of practice if you want to win football matches I understand that point yeah I thought this at the time when he got Leicester promoted and I thought he's going to go to the top and now we're going to see what he's going to do he's had his eyes on this job he's worked at the club before I get this from Man City I think that you know of all the managers they could have picked I think few on paper would be more suited than Maresca as you say it's going to be fascinating next season You mentioned Liverpool, Jim.

44:40Luke Moore: Well, we're going to talk about them after this.

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46:56Luke Moore: Welcome back to the Football Ramble, everybody. Liverpool won Brentford won Liverpool they will be Champions League next season oh Luke Moore spare a thought for Brentford if Wattara scores that header there was a chance they could have clinched a Europa Liga or a conference league spot but they didn't quite do it Keith Andrews felt it keenly as well because Keith Andrews does I mean I think he's great and I love his head of hair he's a very handsome man but he does love himself and you would have to say that you could see it though you could see how pleased he would have been you're in a Roy Keane mood today today today.

47:29Luke Moore: Sunderland, yeah, I mean, it was, you know, easy pickings. No, I'm just saying. Keith Andrews, I mean, does love himself. He was, he was, he was, look, he was gutted and I understand why. They, having said what I've just said about Keith, it doesn't, it doesn't, they're not mutually exclusive. It doesn't mean he's not good. It doesn't mean he's not doing a good job. He just, he just stands out a bit as being that kind of type is all I'm saying. I don't get that. People say, oh yeah, you're the same more and I probably am. So maybe it takes one to know one. But listen, at the start of the season, at the start of the season, Brentford had a catastrophic summer.

48:02The summer was so, so bad. And I imagine a lot of Brentford fans would have been very pessimistic about what was to come. The fact they've come basically one header away from European football, they just need to get it in perspective. It won't feel like it today, but at some point, get it in perspective of what an amazing season they've had. and if they can kick on next season, they can achieve even more. You mentioned in that Liverpool securing Champions League football, right? And I remember thinking earlier in the season, if they get Champions League football, you could probably gloss over the fact that it's been a pretty poor title defence and Slott will keep his job.

48:39Luke Moore: 25 points off the top. Exactly, yeah. 60 points to Arsenal's 85, right? But it looks like they might keep him, but the energy has been so bad. I think some of the stuff he said has been odd I think I'm not sure he's fully grasped how big the job is which is weird given they won the league last season and they've got to navigate I would say he's got to navigate some quite shit behaviour from Mo Salah actually Yeah he put another statement out didn't he saying that Arnestol's kids are nerds Yeah I saw that and some people have reacted to that quite badly but a lot of the Liverpool players have said I don't think there's anything bad in there people are taking it the wrong way That's one of my favourite insults nerd because he works across the spectrum you can say it to anyone and it makes anyone think, oh, am I?

49:20Luke Moore: Yeah. When I'm on my bike, cycling through London, and someone's like, oh, oi. I say, all right, nerd. And it makes them stop for a second to think, am I a nerd? And it's not that offensive, so it can't work. And if they think it is offensive, you can say, no, no, no, no. It means you're a sweet treat. Also, very, very sweet. Being a nerd is really just being passionate about something, isn't it? So you can mostly go, oh, yeah, I guess I'm a bit of a nerd. Yeah. I find it very easy. Keith Andrews hate being called a nerd. Alan Pardew would hate being called a nerd yeah no Andrew's I can see as being a little like a big data guy I think he'd go yeah probably actually but it's what you need these days Pardew you're right he's freaking out about that yeah big time he's having a go at you he's biting immediately what's Pardew a nerd for?

50:03Luke Moore: vaginas

50:10Luke Moore: you asked mate oh it's funny I got it I got it everybody back to Liverpool Brentford yeah so it was Mo Salah's last game for Liverpool assist on his last appearance as well yeah he did set up it was a lovely set up to be fair I'm I'm glad it's done yeah I've had enough of the statements it's been a sideshow it's been a sideshow it has been a sideshow and I think you know and I don't think it serves anybody well I think this whole business with Salah you know in hindsight yes you know if you go back in time you would say please leave at the end of last season because he has been a world-class player.

50:49Luke Moore: Of course he has. The levels that he's maintained for Liverpool are just stunning, were stunningly good. I think it's a shame. As I say, I sit here as a neutral when it comes to Liverpool, but it's a shame to see this, I think, for such a fine football club that has achieved so much and to see Salah and this kind of infight and statements being released and blah, blah, blah. I'm just like, no, please, for your own sakes, let's just get this done. And off he goes because, of course, in years to come all that stuff will be forgotten about the show reel is stunningly good there needs to be some water under the bridge some time exactly he is a Liverpool legend he's an English football legend he's a flipping world football legend he's one of the best players Liverpool have ever had and we're talking about Liverpool exactly yeah and I think it's always important to say that not that anybody forgets it but just so we are absolutely clear on what we think and it's not what we think it's what factually is true that what he's done for the Premier League and Liverpool obviously specifically has been stunning and I think it's just been a little bit of a shame how this season has gone.

51:49Luke Moore: But Liverpool are back in the Champions League. I think that is massive for them because that would have been a disaster had they not have got there. So they are there. It will be very interesting to see what they do in the summer. I mean, I know you can make the case for any Premier League club that all in the summer there's going to be a bit of this, that and the other. But for Liverpool, it does seem like they're going to stick with slot. They need reinforcements in that side. They do. But they're a funny one, aren't they, after the season they've had because I thought they were going to win the league again based on last season and based on the way they strengthened.

52:21Luke Moore: And I suppose you can look at all of the big signings they made and make a case that none of them have worked out to the level you'd expect. Eketike is probably the exception there, but even he sort of dipped a bit before his injury. And yet I look at every single one of those players again and think they're going to come good at some point. Or Virch, sure. Florian Vietz is actually... Which is why I think that's the best argument for changing the manager. Well, indeed. That's what I would say. Yeah, I think Vietz has ended up actually having an okay season. Not the sort of blistering one that you'd expect for the price tag and the profile of player, but he did start to contribute.

52:54Luke Moore: Yeah, you can't pinpoint it on one sort of player, of course. But I mean, in terms of the intensity, you talk about the Spurs players and West Ham players, sort of downing tools and all this sort of thing, or whatever it may be, just not good enough, not out of the races. Liverpool, it shows you the quality they have, that they do ultimately finish in the Champions League places but you look at some of those performances. It's just the lack of intensity. No intensity, no nothing. It's just... And the amount of goals I can see. Oh man, it's wild. It's the most in a Premier League season, isn't it?

53:22Luke Moore: I think it's their most, yeah. Yeah, it is. Absolutely is. And it was Andy Robertson's final game for Liverpool. Yeah, another huge figure. Yeah, who again has been there through the great times. I love Andy Robertson. He seems like a great lad, great character but an amazing serve. Brilliant player. he's not the player he was of three or four years ago we know that but still a great player he's the kind of player I want people like him and McGinn are reasons I want Scotland to do really well at the World Cup they just seem like good relatable lads and I hope they do yeah he's only 32 still I mean we don't know where he's going to go I mean there was there was a lot of talk of him going to Spurs which would be that still may be the case I mean that's it there's still yeah there's still a lot of life in there also that speaking of that by the way I forgot to mention this earlier this is a kind of interesting example of where the level Spurs are at despite their travails is that now they've stayed in the Premier League they're now going to sign Marco Sanasi from Bournemouth that's a confirmed transfer I mean what a season Bournemouth have had Spurs can just pluck him and he won't have European Football Exes exactly that's where we're at it's madness isn't it there we go Andy Robertson final game for Liverpool what a servant he's been didn't sign off with a goal which of course if indeed it is to be his last game for Fulham Tom Kearney did and what a goal it was it's a beauty Marcus were you there for it?

54:44Luke Moore: I was there good on you what a send off was he like that's for you Spellsy? well into the top corner and into the running order even though it's not written down anyway here Jim I think we are going to talk about the championship playoff you know in a minute but I think that we all know that why we watch football is the best thing about football Jim is the goals I agree and if you can score good goals it means you're the best and on match of the day last night when they did a poll to the public and the public are never wrong in this country we know that the top three goals of the season two of them were full goals and Shearer and Rooney rightly picked Harry Wilson's goal in a 2-1 loss at home to Palace as the goal of the season so you're the moral champions there really good goals we only score good goals how many conversations do we have to have with producer Charlie about how much stuff we've got to get through in this recording for you to actually do a decent thing and be a team player well but the one One gripe I do have with this season is why do you stop goal of the season on the 37th round of games?

55:43Luke Moore: Just not going to acknowledge that. You extend it by a week, Jim. You've got all three Fulham players on the podium there. Tom Carey wants you to hold his beer. What a goal it was. Right, anyway, let's go to the Championship Playoff Final where Andy Robertson's former side, Hull City, are now Premier League. Middlesbrough dumped out the playoffs again this season. Is it fair to say this whole foul jamboree has been somewhat overshadowed? Is it not, thank goodness, Hull City won it? Oh, massively. It's the only team where there's going to be no controversy around it. Exactly. They had to win this.

56:15Luke Moore: They've been waiting, who are we playing for? Who are we planning on? Do you know what? Don't spy on either, but we'll plan for both sides. I think the only way to get around this is to make every single football club's training sessions widely available publicly. Then we can find out who really is the best. But the owner of Hull did say they would have taken legal action if they had lost the final. This is the thing. Oh my goodness. This is the wider connotation of this stuff that's happened. Look, we'll talk about the game. I promise you we will. But it's all Southampton's fault. Well, I just find it strange.

56:44And I'm navigating my own biases, of course. So maybe you guys can disavow me of this. But I find it strange that the one thing Southampton could do to kind of rescue this is to say, do you know what? The World Cup's coming up, right? It'll be forgotten about in a couple of weeks. Fire the manager now. Get it out of the way. say sorry about that he's gone this is not the kind of club we are we're not going to have this and just move on brush it under the cup whatever just get rid of it he's gone forget it new season new start sorry to everyone which by the way might help you in the idea that some people want to sue you so you might at least show a bit of willing there I can't believe they're just letting him rumble on as the manager it's wild because a lot of stuff that's come out over the last few days has suggested I'm not suggesting this but it has been reported that he has been doing this ever since he's basically been an opposition scout as a very, very young man.

57:37It's been part of his career and there's also been stuff that's come out that he's perhaps alleged to have been pressuring junior members of staff to continue the activity. So look, ultimately, it's rotten. It needs to go. And the fact that the whole owner came out and said that kind of reminded me of it. But ultimately, the game itself, the Plough Final itself was a pretty tepid affair. Oh, it was. Yeah, it was quite difficult to get through. I mean, it was a shame. On a hot day.

57:59Luke Moore: it was a goalkeeping error as well that really oh that was really hard to watch it was especially as none of his teammates went over there as far as I could see I mean McBurney in the 95th minute the ball drops to him he's like thank you very much like it's not a howler per se from the keeper he either has to catch it or punch it if he punches that away it's extra time yeah maybe he just couldn't face the extra time well I think a few temperature yeah yeah exactly we both have to go home if it even means me just doing this he's like 30 minutes to this more or there's only 46 games in the championship we lost the last game and we won that so maybe it'll happen again yeah exactly yeah exactly yeah but yeah McBurnie was very happy people have been going through my bin yeah but I'll see the drones around yeah I'll see themselves nine year absence from the Premier League but yeah and they just avoided being relegated to League One and goal difference last season it's amazing and now look at them I remember because now look at them I am looking at them despite you telling me I already am Portsmouth were part of that conversation last season I remember Hull going really down to the final day I remember Plymouth being missing out sadly but I thought and I resisted saying this too much on the rare occasion we do cover the championship because it feels a bit mean saying it about a manager of a club like Hull that I thought Jekirovic would probably get another job if he wanted one anyway he's been so good but now he gets to take his team into the Premier League which is great and I do think that Hull are the ones who have probably, I mean, maybe it's wrong to talk about who's suffered the most, but Hull are probably there on the sidelines going, what the fuck's going on here?

59:35We're not a subject of this, but we are massively suffering from it and we don't know who we're going to be playing. This is ridiculous. So for them to come out the other side of it is great for them. I do fall for Nilsborough as well. I also think it's a really nice thing for Olly McBurney, who's I think probably quite unfairly missed out on the Scottish squad. He has, yeah. And he's scored...

59:54Luke Moore: Yeah, but Clark doesn't like strikers that score goals. No, exactly. he had been he scored more goals than pretty much all the strikers that have been selected right with the exception of Lawrence Shanklin come on yeah fair he signed for Rangers by the way as well I didn't see that coming didn't see that coming at all doesn't want to be in the Champions League obviously next season all those preliminary rounds he could have filled his boots in deary me After getting the golden boot at the World Cup, yes please. I'm pulling for Scotland this summer. I really want them to do well. The one reason he won't win the golden boot at the World Cup this summer, not because of them going, it'd be Steve Clarke not playing him.

1:00:41Luke Moore: That's what it'll be. Hard to win the golden boot when you get them five minutes at the end of the final group game. He comes on against Haiti, scores two goals to clinch them a result. We're going to rest you for the Morocco and Brazil games. Don't worry. Don't worry. Keep you for the next round. Yes, but I'm pleased for Hull though. I think it's been a long time since the team who finished sixth in the championship goes up. Because for a while, you know, it was the Ipswich, it went up automatically. Millwall, Southampton, Millesboro in there. Hull sort of nipped in in that pack. And yeah, on they go.

1:01:14Luke Moore: Well, if anyone's interested, it would have been my preference for the teams this year would have been Millwall first choice. Right. And now they get the West Ham game though. Yeah, that's true. We look forward to that. Then Millesboro, then Hull, then Southampton. you wouldn't have put Portsmouth up no but realistically realistically and not Surmantin because they're a rival team to the team I support but because they cheated yeah but Frank Lampard's Coventry oh great we're looking forward to seeing him there we are I am actually looking forward to seeing how Frank tackles the Premier League and Maguire being back too it's three great promotions absolutely but there's plenty of time for that after the World Cup Marcus which we're gearing up towards soon yes we are indeed we have reached the end of the football ramble for another session.

1:01:55Luke Moore: Thank you very much for listening to it. Part of the Acast Creator Network, of course. We will be back tomorrow, though, where we will reflect on the Premier League season more broadly and also go through our Premier League predictions that we all made at the beginning of the season. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. It's not going to be good for me, guys. I feel like I say this every year, but it's not going to be good for me. I don't think it's going to be good for me either. I've got at least one right. And so should you all, really, when it came to the top score thank you very much for listening to the Football Ramble it's been an absolute pleasure I went for Ollie McBurney wrong league yeah we'll see you tomorrow thank you Luke Moore thank you thank you Jim Campbell thank you and thank you Hull City

1:02:46the Football Ramble is a Stack Production and part of the Acast Creator Network

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